Cursed By A Short Second Serve

[Cindysphinx]

My serve is coming along. I switched to a Continental grip last year, and I've learned to hit two kinds of first serve: slice and topspin. At my low level (3.0), my serve takes me pretty far. So far, so good.

My problem is the second serve. The ritual is I miss the first serve. I step up for the second serve. I always slice the second serve, as this tends to be more consistent for me. But I am tight. I am thinking "Don't miss, don't miss, don't miss." I toss, and I just don't get anything on it. I hear that nice sound of strings swiping side of ball. Alas, I didn't hit it hard enough, and it lands short, sometimes amazingly close to the net, but still good.

This is not good. At my level, I can usually get away with it because no one has a midcourt game to speak of. I won't have much of a future unless I fix this problem.

What do you do to make yourself serve the second serve deep? Should I just blast away on the second serve and tolerate a bunch of double faults?

[raiden031]

If your first serve goes in less than 50-60% of the time then it is no good in my opinion. Your first serve needs improvement.

[Cindysphinx]

I'm OK with my first serve percentage. It goes in fine. I do miss sometimes, however. Which is the reason I ask.

[raiden031]

Ok i misread. I thought you were saying that your first serve always goes out, and then you have problems on the 2nd. Sounds like a mental problem. You should get a ball hopper and practice hundreds of serves, both first and second. Then when playing a match, don't be afraid to lose because of double faulting.

[FiveO]

The biggest hurdle to overcome on seconds is realizing the need to have the same or even faster racquet head speed on contact than one does on firsts. Racquet head speed=good, backing off racquet head speed-wise=bad.

Draw the mental parallel between the two serves and a groundie hit flatter with a ton of horizontal (baseline to baseline) pace vs. a safer heavily top-spinned groundie hit with alot of net clearance. That heavily spun groundie is hit with as much if not more racquet head speed.

On the second serve "see the arc...be the arc". See the shape of the ball's flight and accept that in order to bend the ball's flight you're required to hit with a greater amount of spin. Greater spin requires greater racquet head speed.

Once you get over the un-warranted fear and accept the mental imagery of "swinging faster" (not harder, as I believe that works against serve mechanics) that realization will equate to "the faster I swing the safer the second serve will be". Faster, deeper and more consistent.

Also, it is a good idea to add more spin to your firsts as well. You'll feel freer to do it without the spectre of a double looming in the back of your mind and be able to get a feel for the proper amount of spin v. pace ratio works best for you. It will also result in less second serve pressure situations as well. Win-Win.

Good luck.

[Jesse K.]

On your second serve you could try tossing closer to your body and coming up the back of the ball for more of a kick serve. However, I find when a lot of people do this they just hit a better slice serve, because a kick serve is hard for them to execute.

[Geezer Guy]

... I hear that nice sound of strings swiping side of ball. Alas, I didn't hit it hard enough, and it lands short, sometimes amazingly close to the net, but still good. ...
Sounds to me like you're hitting the side TOO MUCH, and not hitting behind the ball enough to drive it deep into the box. Try hitting through the ball just a bit more. Experiment with different toss locations. Maybe it should be just a bit further forward into the court.

And, you know, a half-hour serving lesson with a pro could get you on the right track.

[kevhen]

Key to winning at 3.0 level is to get the ball in even if they land short. You are doing fine. You could back off on your first serve (slice it) to get a higher percent in (75%+) and hit the exact same serve for your second serve. That serve will keep improving over time so you will get a higher and higher percent in and can then go back to going for more on your first serve. Good luck, you are doing fine.

On on slice serves, you need to aim up a little bit higher since the slice takes some pace out of the ball so that might be why it's dropping in short. Toss the ball a little bit lower and farther back and aim deeper on the court and they should start going in with depth with enough practice.

Each serve has slightly different tosses, swingpaths, etc so you have to learn to adjust to each one. Once you find what works, practice it over and over until it's second nature.

[Cindysphinx]

Whoa! Correction.

I said I can hit a topspin serve. That is a total lie.

I meant I can hit a flat serve.

I don't see myself ever having a true topspin serve. Just wanted to clarify that.

Thanks, all! I'll try to put some of this into practice.

Racquet head speed. Racquet head speed. Must generate racquet head speed . . .

[kevhen]

You don't need more racquet head speed. Just aim a little bit higher and they should start landing deeper. Again bring the ball toss back a little (not so far into the court) and a little lower for the slice. I figured you had a flat first serve since 3.0's don't hit topspin serves! Good luck, you will be 3.5 in no time!

[varuscelli]

You could back off on your first serve (slice it) to get a higher percent in (75%+) and hit the exact same serve for your second serve. That serve will keep improving over time so you will get a higher and higher percent in and can then go back to going for more on your first serve.

I am not an instructor, so can't speak from that standpoint. But I agree with what kevhen says.

What has worked for me in the past is to try and NOT make things too complex for myself in feeling I have to have a distinctly different serve every time for first serve, second serve -- especially if I'm struggling at all with second serve. What I'll do is to work on the first serve technique and use that same serve for my second serve (but usually with a bit more power on first serve, a bit less for second serve).

For higher level players, this might not be the best approach, but for low to midrange levels, I think it can be a helpful way to work around a problematic second serve.

Might be worth an experimental try for a few days. And practice like that with a few hopper's full of balls, if you have the opportunity, before bringing it out as a game-time approach.

[FiveO]

You don't need more racquet head speed. Just aim a little bit higher and they should start landing deeper. Again bring the ball toss back a little (not so far into the court) and a little lower for the slice. I figured you had a flat first serve since 3.0's don't hit topspin serves! Good luck, you will be 3.5 in no time!

This is great advice only if you want to relegate someone to a 4.0 ceiling. The jist I got from the OP is that he has his sights on improvement. If he wants to improve the serve while it is the technically most complex it is the easiest to take ownership of and improve. Learning it now and not later is the way to go. Merely getting it in will work but is likely to lay the groundwork which will require umpteen times the effort to correct later if the desire is to rise in level.

To the OP racquet head speed is the goal if you have your sights set at higher levels. It will require that you learn to impart more topspin to the ball's flight though. The best advice is to get to a good teaching pro at least one time to understand the basics motion/toss/swing path/contact points. Committing to slice ONLY is likely to leave you with a toss and motion which will make it tougher to add topspin later, and variety more down the road than a more sound approach to the serve.

[kevhen]

This is a 3.0 adult player so a 4.0 goal is not a bad long-term goal. You don't need a big serve to play 4.0 tennis but you do need a consistent serve.

[Pusher]

My serve is coming along. I switched to a Continental grip last year, and I've learned to hit two kinds of first serve: slice and topspin. At my low level (3.0), my serve takes me pretty far. So far, so good.

My problem is the second serve. The ritual is I miss the first serve. I step up for the second serve. I always slice the second serve, as this tends to be more consistent for me. But I am tight. I am thinking "Don't miss, don't miss, don't miss." I toss, and I just don't get anything on it. I hear that nice sound of strings swiping side of ball. Alas, I didn't hit it hard enough, and it lands short, sometimes amazingly close to the net, but still good.

This is not good. At my level, I can usually get away with it because no one has a midcourt game to speak of. I won't have much of a future unless I fix this problem.

What do you do to make yourself serve the second serve deep? Should I just blast away on the second serve and tolerate a bunch of double faults?

Its a mental issue. You even see it with the pros when its a crucial point-they'll dump that second serve into the net.

You get tight, you don't want to hit long and you try to guide the ball into the box. You probably don't even pronate your wrists.

As a test, hit your second serve on your first attempt-if you have no problem then you know you've simply got a mental issue. One that i suspect almost all players have at some point. Its very similar to pushing a groundstroke.

The fix: Practice makes perfect. Practice builds confidence.

After missing a first serve be sure you don't go right into the motion for your second. Step back, take a moment and remember how you do it in practice. Think fatalistic-if you're going to miss it then you might as well just hit it right with good racquet speed while keeping your eye on the ball until you can't see it any longer.

Good luck and I hope that helps.

[Bagumbawalla]

I think Geezer Guy is correct.

Rather than hit excessive side spin, try for about a 45 degree angle-- as if the ball was a clock and you were following through across the face at 7.5 minutes after the hour.

Experiment with moving your impact point slight back. That SHOULD create a bit of topspin. Move the ball around and see what works.

You might also experiment with different rackets, weights, balances. Borrow from friends- see if you find any difference.

Whatever you choose to do, the service motion needs to be a smooooooth, elegant arc. Choking/clenching up, as you know is counterproductive.

[Swissv2]

thank you for your advice FiveO. Very useful information there.

I can add a bit of my own advice for Cindy: If you have time, work in practice serves for your 1st serve, then move on to work on your 2nd serve. It is important that you practice both serves IMO to get the feel of the transition between a 1st serve and 2nd serve. If you practice 2nd serves exclusively, you will have a more difficult time transitioning from 1st to 2nd.

[Cindysphinx]

Maybe I don't understand what topspin is.

I thought that topspin on a serve is generated by tossing the ball a bit farther back, more over your head. Then you arch your back and bend your knees to whip over the top of the ball, such that it drops into the service box and kicks up wildly. The opponent lunges and flails, and the point is mine.

This happens all the time in my dreams.

In reality, if I try this the ball shoots past the baseline. I had completely given up on the idea of ever serving with topspin.

Is there a way that someone with my limited athletic ability to generate topspin?

[Swissv2]

Maybe I don't understand what topspin is.

I thought that topspin on a serve is generated by tossing the ball a bit farther back, more over your head. Then you arch your back and bend your knees to whip over the top of the ball, such that it drops into the service box and kicks up wildly. The opponent lunges and flails, and the point is mine.

This happens all the time in my dreams.

In reality, if I try this the ball shoots past the baseline. I had completely given up on the idea of ever serving with topspin.

Is there a way that someone with my limited athletic ability to generate topspin?

if you were able to provide a video of your serving, I would gladly try to help out. There are basic techniques of how, then there are advice directly related to how you hit.

[Pusher]

Maybe I don't understand what topspin is.

I thought that topspin on a serve is generated by tossing the ball a bit farther back, more over your head. Then you arch your back and bend your knees to whip over the top of the ball, such that it drops into the service box and kicks up wildly. The opponent lunges and flails, and the point is mine.

This happens all the time in my dreams.

In reality, if I try this the ball shoots past the baseline. I had completely given up on the idea of ever serving with topspin.

Is there a way that someone with my limited athletic ability to generate topspin?

Sure you can;) .

Just swear off all other activity other than eating and sleeping and make a topspin serve your life's quest. I did that a while back and I developed a very nice looking topspin serve that seems to defy the laws of physics-I hit it high, it drops deep in the service box, kicks up very nicely and then my opponent cracks it down the line for a winner. I like your dream better.

[kevhen]

I worked on topspin serves for a year or two but found my slice serve developed faster and is much more effective as the bounce and spin are less predictable for my opponent. I still use topspin when serving wide on the ad side but tend to hit the slice most, like 60% slice, 20% flat, 20% topspin. So you can survive just well without a topspin serve since it will take the longest to develop.

[Geezer Guy]

If I can learn to hit a topspin serve, then anyone can.

Your description of how to hit it is about right, except I'd say you need to brush up the back of the ball as well as over the top. It take some work to get it just right.

Also, remember that the purpose of the topspin serve is to hit a serve with power that clears the net by a safe margin and then drops into the box. The "kick" can make it dificult to return, but that's just a nice bonus - it's not the reason for selecting the shot.

The "lunging and flailing" part only happens in the pro's.

You may be expecting a bit more of the shot than is reasonable.

[Cindysphinx]

I was out with my hopper this afternoon, practicing what you guys suggested. (See, your suggestions are actually implemented!) Yeah, racquet head speed makes quite a difference. And a low toss is the kiss of death.

Now I'm wondering the best time to use a big slice in doubles. You know, the kind that kind of bends in the air a bit and kicks to my left when it bounces and makes other 3.0 players go "Ooooh!" :D

When should I go for a flat first serve with pace and when should I go for a first-serve slice? I would guess I should slice out wide to the deuce court and go flat up the T; reverse on the ad side. I had a tough time slicing to the T from the ad side. Just never seemed to go in.

Or should it be more based on where opponent is standing or where their backhand is? Or something else?

Are there different guidelines for singles?

[varuscelli]

Now I'm wondering the best time to use a big slice in doubles. You know, the kind that kind of bends in the air a bit and kicks to my left when it bounces and makes other 3.0 players go "Ooooh!" :D

At the 3.0 level, I'd say mix it in anytime you want (as long as you're comfortable with it) just to keep them on their toes! ;)

That way, you'll be unpredictable enough for them NOT to be able to accurately anticipate what's going to be coming at them, first serve or second. :)

[Geezer Guy]

Go down the T as much as possible. That will cause most of the returns to come down the middle where your partner can knock them off. Go out wide once in awhile to keep your opponents guessing, but your partner needs to watch out for the return down the alley when you do.

Whatever you do, DON'T base your serve on where your opponents are standing. This just forces you to serve where they want you to serve, and they can always change positions anyway as you toss the ball.

Mix up your flat and slice serves. If there's a point you really want to serve-and-volley effectively, the slice serve is better.

[kevhen]

At the 3.0 level, just getting a slice in will likely screw up your opponents return as the ball will curve some and they won't adjust and move over. Also slices are often returned into the net due to the spin and lower bounce. Just get them in and aim up the T on the duece side and center of the box on the ad side and get a high percentage in and avoid hitting those short second serves.

You don't have to ace people at the 3.0 level. You can win by forcing mistakes at most any level. Get the ball in play and then as that becomes second nature and your placement improves, go for more on your shots.

[OrangeOne]

I don't see myself ever having a true topspin serve. Just wanted to clarify that

Don't be so harsh on yourself! Unless you have physical limitations (shoulder issues perhaps) you can and probably will get there! A good friend of mine is just about to start demoing racquets, moving up from a "generic sports store, light, high-power Prince" purchase to a "real racquet". He may end up with a leaded-up tweener imho.

Anyways, last night his racquet was unavailable (trapped in his car at the mechanics), so he played with the only available racquet - my mate's RDS 001 Mid (weighted with lead at the top of the hoop).

His game went, imho, through the roof. His serve is almost exclusively flat, and last night there were a couple of mild kickers from nowhere. His groundies had acres more spin, and his ability to cope with heavy balls improved loads.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying go buy a player's frame. I don't think he'll end up with a player's frame (well, not a Mid, anyways). But hey - everyone can improve, and I'm a bit scared of how good this guy will get with a better frame, and the extra confidence that will come with it. As your confidence builds, as certain things become easy.... well you too will find new challenges! Maybe a kicker will be the one after the next one :)