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jhun
10-10-2006, 05:12 AM
hey all

got my racquet strung with some alu powers bout a month ago. played maybe 8 times and now i notice that the knot of the top of the racquet looks loose. the three bottom knots look very tight, no space inbetween the knot. the top knot looks like it could come undone. there is not much tension loss though, strung at 55.

a friend who had it strung by the same stringer is having the same problem, except there is quite a bit of tension loss. strung at 56 feels like 54 or less. twang sound when you hit with it.

if anyone can help me fix it or somehow tighten the knot it would be much appreciated :D
also if the stringer is not very good because of this let me know and i'll stop going to him. thanks :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Clintspin
10-10-2006, 05:38 AM
Is it done as a one-piece or two piece string job?

Nuke
10-10-2006, 05:40 AM
i notice that the knot of the top of the racquet looks loose... the top knot looks like it could come undone.
You could take a pair of pliers and grab the cut end of the string and pull it to tighten the knot.

except there is quite a bit of tension loss. strung at 56 feels like 54 or less.
That's actually not much of a drop at all. Most strings drop off quite a bit after hitting for a couple of hours. Two pounds is nothing.

jhun
10-10-2006, 06:07 AM
one piece string. not sure how its strung but there is a knot at bottom of 3rd main, 13th and 14th. and the knot at the top of the 4th main that looks loose

i've tried the pliers but it doesn't budge. i'll take a pic of it tmr.
the tension loss seems like quite a bit though didn't have the twangs when first got it strung. dont really want to waste another 40$aud to get and put new strings on again.

thx for the help so far guys :D:D

Clintspin
10-10-2006, 06:31 AM
I should have paid more attention to your first post. You have a two piece string job and it looks like your stringer is not using the correct knot to start the crosses. I would take it back to whomever strung it and have them do it correctly or get your money back. It doesn't matter that you have played with it for several sets, the knot should not come loose. Go back to the stringer.

vinnier6
10-10-2006, 06:41 AM
Is it done as a one-piece or two piece string job?
did you read the question...he said the top knot was comming loose, but the bottom 3 were still tight....

he has a 2 piece job...

PBODY99
10-10-2006, 09:37 AM
The top knot was cinched tightly, a 2 pound drop is not an issuse. The use of needle nose pliers to tighten up the knot may ease your mind, as you say there is no tension lost, don't worry.:cool:

flash9
10-10-2006, 11:57 AM
... You have a two piece string job and it looks like your stringer is not using the correct knot to start the crosses. I would take it back to whomever strung it and have them do it correctly or get your money back. It doesn't matter that you have played with it for several sets, the knot should not come loose. Go back to the stringer.
Some of the very best professional stringers in the world do not use a starting knot on their two piece string jobs. In fact I find it hard to believe this racquet was string in such a manor where a starting knot was used, since typically when an incorrect starting knot is used the knot is actually pulled down in to the grommet so far it nearly disappears as opposed to appear to becoming untied.

If you are interested, this is my understanding of how to string a two piece string job without using a starting knot, but instead using a Starting clamp. To make this as clear as possible, we will start with the Starting clamp on the outside of the frame with about 9 inches of string, and we will call this the Left side of the frame. The string is woven to the Right side and tension is pulled and clamped with the machines Right clamp. We weave back across to the Left, tension is pulled and the machines Left clamp is used. At this point the Starting clamp, and both machine clamps are used. The string is woven back across and tension is pulled and the machines Right clamp is moved to hold the string. Basically, now the machines Left clamp is redundant. At this time I like to go back to the top and pull the 9 inch string that is sticking out of the Starting clamp, I then move the machines Left clamp and clamp off, and release the Starting clamp. I then tie off the top of the frame as normal with a Pro/Parnell knot. I then move on to the rest of the crosses. An alternative method is to string all the crosses and only return to the top once you tie off at the bottom.

Steve Huff
10-10-2006, 12:10 PM
You could add a drop of Super Glue. Just make sure you don't get it on the frame. It probably won't come loose anyway, but the Super Glue won't hurt.

bcsax123
10-10-2006, 09:08 PM
Some of the very best professional stringers in the world do not use a starting knot on their two piece string jobs. In fact I find it hard to believe this racquet was string in such a manor where a starting knot was used, since typically when an incorrect starting knot is used the knot is actually pulled down in to the grommet so far it nearly disappears as opposed to appear to becoming untied.

If you are interested, this is my understanding of how to string a two piece string job without using a starting knot, but instead using a Starting clamp. To make this as clear as possible, we will start with the Starting clamp on the outside of the frame with about 9 inches of string, and we will call this the Left side of the frame. The string is woven to the Right side and tension is pulled and clamped with the machines Right clamp. We weave back across to the Left, tension is pulled and the machines Left clamp is used. At this point the Starting clamp, and both machine clamps are used. The string is woven back across and tension is pulled and the machines Right clamp is moved to hold the string. Basically, now the machines Left clamp is redundant. At this time I like to go back to the top and pull the 9 inch string that is sticking out of the Starting clamp, I then move the machines Left clamp and clamp off, and release the Starting clamp. I then tie off the top of the frame as normal with a Pro/Parnell knot. I then move on to the rest of the crosses. An alternative method is to string all the crosses and only return to the top once you tie off at the bottom.

This is true. When stringing polys, usually you can get away with a double half hitch, but soft strings need a starting knot.

Starting knots look differnt though. The are really just double half hitch knots like the knots at the bottom but with a string that goes around and through the little loops, and since ALU is stiffer, the string might not be able to be bent in such a small space.

Chicken Neck
10-11-2006, 06:53 AM
I use the Parnell as a starter without difficulty. However I could see one having a problem with a distorted or damaged grommet as the knot is small and could be pulled into the grommet.

andrew_b
10-11-2006, 10:28 AM
I use the Parnell as a starter without difficulty. However I could see one having a problem with a distorted or damaged grommet as the knot is small and could be pulled into the grommet.

While the Parnell knot might be working for you, I'd recommend against using it as a starter knot. First, as you note it's not quite as large as a typical starting knot.

Second, and I think more importantly, the knot "pulls" from the wrong end/direction for a starting knot. That is, the tension pulls harshly against the anchor string and could result in immediate breakage or damage that could cause premature breakage.

Evidently, you haven't run into this so far, but more fragile strings and/or higher tensions could cause a problem.

I'd recommend either using a starting knot (http://www.keohi.com/tennis/misc/knots.htm#Starting%20Knot) or using a starting clamp and then all Parnell knots.

play well,
Andrew

Chicken Neck
10-16-2006, 08:45 PM
Andrew, I guess what you say is possible but I have used the Parnel on as delicate a string as Gamma Professional 18g without negative effect and I find it works particularly well with stiff strings such as polys. As they say to each his own. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned the way that works for you is the right way.

diredesire
10-17-2006, 12:57 AM
Not only is it possible, but the Parnell knot just isn't designed to be a starting knot. It is a lot more gentle on an anchor string compared to, say, a double half hitch, but it still does tighten, and it's really not bulky enough to be a good starter. Mr. Parnell himself even suggests using a fisherman's knot rather than the Parnell itself.

Chicken Neck
10-17-2006, 08:16 AM
Any knot will pressure the anchor string. The only way to really eliminate that is to use a starting clamp. I was taught to use the Parnell as a starter by an MRT who was a stringer at the U.S Open so I figured if it's good enough for him I would give it a try and it's worked great for me for well over 400 jobs now. BTW I'm not so sure the Parnell who posted here is THE Parnell. I'm sure you have read many things on this site just as I have, that recommend things that are not the greatest. For example I have read many posts that recommend pulling the second main on a string job against the clamp, something I was taught is a major no no. However, this must work for alot of guys or they would not do it. I think you do what works for you. I'm friends with alot of stringers, quite a few of whom string as I do and they have not suffered any of the problems mentioned here with the Parnell as a starter. Really when you think about it none of these knots were designed with tennis racquet stringing in mind so to say the Parnell (which as I'm sure you know, he did not invent) was not designed as a starting knot is really a non sequitur. All that being said, I think if you are doing something that is not working then of course you change it. If the method I now use ever gives me problems I will be the first to come to you guys for help as I've gotten some great tips and shortcuts here.

diredesire
10-17-2006, 10:46 AM
Any knot will pressure the anchor string. The only way to really eliminate that is to use a starting clamp. I was taught to use the Parnell as a starter by an MRT who was a stringer at the U.S Open so I figured if it's good enough for him I would give it a try and it's worked great for me for well over 400 jobs now. BTW I'm not so sure the Parnell who posted here is THE Parnell. I'm sure you have read many things on this site just as I have, that recommend things that are not the greatest. For example I have read many posts that recommend pulling the second main on a string job against the clamp, something I was taught is a major no no. However, this must work for alot of guys or they would not do it. I think you do what works for you. I'm friends with alot of stringers, quite a few of whom string as I do and they have not suffered any of the problems mentioned here with the Parnell as a starter. Really when you think about it none of these knots were designed with tennis racquet stringing in mind so to say the Parnell (which as I'm sure you know, he did not invent) was not designed as a starting knot is really a non sequitur. All that being said, I think if you are doing something that is not working then of course you change it. If the method I now use ever gives me problems I will be the first to come to you guys for help as I've gotten some great tips and shortcuts here.
You make some good, and very valid points. I do read (all the time) suggestions I would not put into practice myself. I do know that Parnell didn't "invent" the knot, and I also do know that the Parnell here IS the parnell, he also cross posts at GSS. I never said the Parnell would not work as a starting knot, and I don't really expect you to have any major problems using it as a starting knot, but I do believe that it is less than ideal for use as a starter knot. I think we'll just agree to disagree on it's use, as I have no real problems with someone else using it. It's a lot better than a double half hitch.

andrew_b
10-17-2006, 12:49 PM
Any knot will pressure the anchor string. The only way to really eliminate that is to use a starting clamp. I was taught to use the Parnell as a starter by an MRT who was a stringer at the U.S Open so I figured if it's good enough for him I would give it a try and it's worked great for me for well over 400 jobs now.

This is really interesting, since I seem to recall a thread where several MRT's who administer the test (including Richard, IIRC), said they would fail the person taking the test if they used half-hitches or a Parnel knot instead of a starting knot and pulled against it. This was not on this site, btw.

And to be clear, when I'm referring to delicate string I don't mean 18g multis, I'm referring (generally) to 17 or 18 natural gut.

I was advised that to pass the test, to either use a starting knot (fisherman's knot) or a figure eight knot.

Of course, your actual mileage may vary.

Play well,
Andrew

andrew_b
10-17-2006, 12:59 PM
I've found the thread. I'm going to post a couple quotes here, as the link gets editied. These are from a thread titled "Richard Parnell KNot" on GSS.

If anyone I quote objects, please advise me and I'll edit the post :)

"after talking to a tester for the USRSA, I believe it is probably best that you at least know how to do a starting knot. The RP knot is best used with starting clamp, tie off, etc but when you start your gut crosses on the test, they suggest , ahem ahem strongly recommend or points off ahem ahem, that you use the starting knot. "

"I do some testing and I wouldn't pass someone for using the RP knot as a starting knot. It pulls from the wrong end. I have tried it personally and have pulled 88lbs as a straight pull on it and it still didn't hurt the anchor string. However it still doesn't make it a starting knot.
All the best, "

The second quote is the one I remembered from Richard.

So, the consesnsus seems to be the knot will work, but that it's not considered what I'd term "best practice".

Besides, a starting clamp is so *easy*. 8)

Play well,
Andrew

Chicken Neck
10-17-2006, 02:20 PM
Well just for giggles I did a frame using the starting clamp instead of the Parnell and while it did of course work, I just like the way I'm used to better. As to my instructor using the Parnell as a starter what can I tell you? It works and he likes it. In regard to the quote in your post by Parnell, he states that he has pulled 88lbs. on it without damage to the anchor string. This being the case the logic in subtracting points for using it in testing eludes me especially as I don't see how tension would be detrimentally effected. Interesting topic and good info. I love hearing others opinions and takes on this stuff.

Richard Parnell
10-17-2006, 11:46 PM
Hi Chicken Neck,
I don't know if I am THE Richard Parnell but I am one anyway.Hello how do you do.LOL
The knot in question (otherwise known as the RP knot) is not a starting knot and thus in a test would be considered an error.Using a starting clamp to start the crosses would also be an error as a hybrid is used in the test to "test" your knowledge of different types of knots and the reason for them to be used.
The fact that the knot can be used as a starting knot doesn't make it one. For that matter why not use a double half hitch as it is a knot, holds the string and has been used for years.
My 2 cents anyway,
All the best,
Richard

Chicken Neck
10-18-2006, 05:19 AM
So really not using a particular knot at a given time during a test is more a manner of testing the stringers skill with different knots than a testament to the functionality of a given knot? Although I don't usually use a starting clamp to start crosses, I am curious as to why the fact that a hybrid is used in testing would make using the starting clamp an error? As to why I use the Parnell instead of the double half hitch, I guess it's because it's because thats the way I was taught and I like the uniformity of using the same knot across the stringbed. In regard to the use of your namesake knot as a starter, as you have stated it does work so what is the reason for not using it? Is it the small size? Nice to meet you Richard, Jim. P.S thanks for the info.

Richard Parnell
10-18-2006, 05:42 AM
Hi Jim,
The use of a starting knot is just to test that the stringer knows one and when to use it. The use of a starting clamp negates the need for a starting knot and thus has no use in the test.A starting knot is recognised as a knot that pulls tight from one end and a finishing knot the other end.The RP knot cinches up from the inside and a starting knot from the outside thus it is not a starting knot.
I also use a starting clamp and then tie off with a RP knot to give the knots a uniform look.If I had to use a starting knot I would use the fisherman knot or a figure of eight knot.
All the best,
Richard

Chicken Neck
10-18-2006, 10:43 AM
Richard, thank you for your reply and explanation. It's great to get feedback from a true expert. Be well, Jim

Richard Parnell
10-18-2006, 11:24 AM
No prob,
Have a good day (its night here in Spain)
Richard

andrew_b
10-18-2006, 08:37 PM
Hi Richard,

Thanks for weighing in here, your contribution is appreciated.

:)

best,
Andrew