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View Full Version : change only X on Hybrid ??


dainova
10-14-2006, 06:56 PM
Hi,
Can I restring X on hybrid job, or it's already late or doens' make sence.

Thx

Valjean
10-14-2006, 07:06 PM
This question has been asked so much; please do a search next time first.

Richie Rich
10-15-2006, 04:57 AM
Hi,
Can I restring X on hybrid job, or it's already late or doens' make sence.

Thx
people have done it but i wouldn't recommend it. you really have to take care to mount the frame properly when you are restringing just crosses.

for the extra 10 minutes it takes restring the whole racquet at the same time

jonolau
10-15-2006, 09:21 PM
This is a case of being penny-wise pound-foolish.

By trying to save money and leaving the mains on, you may create micro cracks of the fibres that will add up to catastrophic failure of the frame.

A half set will cost another $10 at the very most. A new frame will cost at least 10-20 times more, and you will still have to buy new strings.

dainova
10-15-2006, 11:18 PM
Tx, all

I did mount frame and cut off X just to see how loose M are. It was evident that I need to restring all.

snoflewis
10-15-2006, 11:38 PM
Hi,
Can I restring X on hybrid job, or it's already late or doens' make sence.

Thx

yes, it's possible. no, you shouldnt do it.

first of all, you have no idea what the tension is on the mains..so a big difference between main and crosses can = broken frame. it only takes 10-15 minutes to string the mains, and why would you want to restring new crosses on worn/dead mains? lastly, you can lose $5-$10 restringing the mains, or lose $150 on a new frame because you broke the other.

SW Stringer
10-16-2006, 10:11 AM
Hi,
Can I restring X on hybrid job, or it's already late or doens' make sence.

Thx

I've done this successfully several times, but it only makes sense for me when the hybrid is a natural gut mains/syn gut cross job. I hated wasting the Babolat mains when the Gosen OG-Sheep Micro crosses broke. On one particular racquet I was into the third set of crosses before the mains broke. You just have to be careful and mount your frame before cutting out the crosses. You can check the tension on the mains by plucking them and comparing to what the original frequency was when you first did the string job. The FREQMESS progam will let you track the string frequency extremely accurately. Just adjust down the cross tension to follow the tension reduction in the mains to keep the tension differential between the M's and X's to a minimum and you'll be fine. It's required to keep records. For example if the longest mains were at 500 HZ originally and are now at 470 HZ, then the cross tension should be reduced by the amount of (470/500)**2 = 0.8836 . So if the original cross tension was 60, the new tension would be 53. Hope that helps.

jj300
10-16-2006, 06:06 PM
SW,
I can't believe what I'm reading (or maybe I can). Any wise/decent stringer knows that this is a huge no no. Funny to see this post from the same person that challenged to go head in head against an experienced stringer (an MRT at this point actually) on a top of the line alpha equinox, and claims to produce the same consistent results on his klipper!!! shame shame shame

psp2
10-16-2006, 06:49 PM
SW,
I can't believe what I'm reading (or maybe I can). Any wise/decent stringer knows that this is a huge no no. Funny to see this post from the same person that challenged to go head in head against an experienced stringer (an MRT at this point actually) on a top of the line alpha equinox, and claims to produce the same consistent results on his klipper!!! shame shame shame

I've done it from time to time in certain circumstances. Why is it a huge NO-NO? IF... the frame is mounted solidly in a 6point mount and the crosses are removed with care, there isn't any more stress to the frame than it would be if you had just strung the main. In fact, there would be LESS stress due to the tension loss of the mains.

I'm not advocating cutting out the cross only on a regular basis, but SW mentioned certain circumstance where you wouldn't want to cut out a 1/2 set of good gut. I see no problem in doing this... as long as the frame is mounted properly.

jonolau
10-16-2006, 07:23 PM
But why do it when there are obvious risks?

It is no doubt that a 6 pt mount can provide support, and when starting with a totally fresh stringing job, there will be stresses put on the frame.

HOWEVER, when you mount the frame and cut out the crosses, there will be a sudden drop in tension on certain parts of the frame, and it is this sudden loss that shocks the frame. When compounded by the fact that the mains are still there providing tension, your frame integrity will be compromised.

That is why when cutting out full sets of old strings, you're supposed to cut diagonally to release tension on both mains and crosses at the same time. This may not fully ensure that there is no stress on the frame, but will at least prolong the life of the frame.

psp2
10-16-2006, 07:47 PM
But why do it when there are obvious risks?

As stated before, there have been situations where I didn't want to cut out a practically good set of natural gut. If it was any other string like syn. gut or poly in the mains, I wouldn't hesitate to cut them out.


HOWEVER, when you mount the frame and cut out the crosses, there will be a sudden drop in tension on certain parts of the frame, and it is this sudden loss that shocks the frame.


You CAN cut the crosses out slowly. You can clamp each cross and slowly release them.


When compounded by the fact that the mains are still there providing tension, your frame integrity will be compromised.


Would you agree that the racquet is under MOST stress when you finish stringing the mains (and before you string the crosses)? You would.

Now, how is cutting out the crosses (slowly) and leaving the mains in place any different than the above scenario?

Like I said, I've done it on few occasions and don't advocate doing it on a regular basis. BUT, you can't convince me that cutting out crosses is detrimental to the life of a racquet which can withstand a stress well beyond what we THINK it can handle. In developing the Max 200g, Dunlop used to stress the racquet at around 120kg of force before failure. That's over 250 lbs. of force, so please spare me the nonsense about micro-fractures.

jonolau
10-16-2006, 08:05 PM
Whatever rocks your world. It's your racquet, after all.

But I wouldn't do it for a customer's racquet.

jonolau
10-16-2006, 08:14 PM
Would you agree that the racquet is under MOST stress when you finish stringing the mains (and before you string the crosses)? You would.
Sorry, psp2. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I have to reply this one.

When you are stringing fresh mains, you are not putting sudden pressure as one would be tensioning at an almost constant rate. However, when strings are cut, there is a SUDDEN change in tension.

Imagine if some slaps you suddenly as compared to another person pressing your cheek slowly to achieve the same pressure. Which would feel the most force?

psp2
10-16-2006, 08:22 PM
Sorry, psp2. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I have to reply this one.

When you are stringing fresh mains, you are not putting sudden pressure as one would be tensioning at an almost constant rate. However, when strings are cut, there is a SUDDEN change in tension.

Imagine if some slaps you suddenly as compared to another person pressing your cheek slowly to achieve the same pressure. Which would feel the most force?

I believe I've addressed that in my previous post:

You CAN cut the crosses out slowly. You can clamp each cross and slowly release them.


I clamp each cross and cut them one by one and slowly release the string. There isn't a sudden release in tension.

SW Stringer
10-17-2006, 09:05 AM
SW,
I can't believe what I'm reading (or maybe I can). Any wise/decent stringer knows that this is a huge no no. Funny to see this post from the same person that challenged to go head in head against an experienced stringer (an MRT at this point actually) on a top of the line alpha equinox, and claims to produce the same consistent results on his klipper!!! shame shame shame

psp2 has the perfect rebuttal to both jj300 and jonolau, I agree totally. Additionally I might ask jj300 and jonolau to present their engineering frame stress analysis results which verifies their presumtions about frame damage/micro fractures, etc. Oh, I forgot, they're not racquet frame designers. Also as psp2 rightfully points out, the actual REAL frame designers DO worry about undue stresses and test accordingly, taking into account the stresses of stringing, playing, serving and volleying the ball at speeds in excess of 120mph, bashing racquets on the court, strings snapping etc, etc, etc AND once the magnitude of these forces are understood, design in suitable margin of strength. If all those worst case conditions weren't a part of the design criteria the racquet won't ever see the light of day. I say shame, shame, shame on youse guys for waving your hands and pretending to be frame designers. ;)

Richie Rich
10-17-2006, 09:12 AM
[QUOTE=SW StringerI say shame, shame, shame on youse guys for waving your hands and pretending to be frame designers. ;)[/QUOTE]

i don't think anyone claimed to be a racquet designer anymore than you have. are you a racquet designer qualified to refute what jon and jj300 have posted? if you are then cool but i don't think that's the case.

jonolau
10-17-2006, 03:15 PM
Thanks, Rich. Appreciate your support.

psp2: Your explanations make sense. I can see that you've given it a lot of thought and taken extra care in removing the crosses which does reduce stress on the frame.

SW Stringer: None of us here claims to be frame designers. But we do want to be good reputable stringers and strive to give the best to our customers and do the right thing for them.

Let's keep the positive discussions flowing.

eunjam
10-17-2006, 04:26 PM
i'll do whatever the MRT's and grand slam stringers say.......i mean....duh.

Richie Rich
10-17-2006, 08:00 PM
Thanks, Rich. Appreciate your support.

psp2: Your explanations make sense. I can see that you've given it a lot of thought and taken extra care in removing the crosses which does reduce stress on the frame.

SW Stringer: None of us here claims to be frame designers. But we do want to be good reputable stringers and strive to give the best to our customers and do the right thing for them.

Let's keep the positive discussions flowing.
no worries.

i can see the point about being really careful with removing the crosses. i still wouldn't do it though. too many variables for me to worry about just to save half a set of string, even if it is gut.

psp2
10-17-2006, 08:44 PM
Let's keep the positive discussions flowing.

No prob..

Steve Huff
10-17-2006, 09:10 PM
psp2--if you're going to do it, the correct way would be as follows:

--Mount the racket in the machine
--Clamp the 2nd cross, klip the 1st cross, undo the knot, and remove the 1st cross
--Weave your new 1st cross and tension and clamp it.
--Clamp the 3rd cross, remove the 2nd, weave, tension and clamp the new 2nd cross
--Clamp the 4th, remove the 3rd, etc...

You can use a floating clamp to clamp the old cross and a fixed clamp to hold the new cross. If you only have floating clamps, you have to plan a little more and may have to do 2 at a time at first.

haerdalis
10-18-2006, 03:57 AM
I too fail to see how restringing the crosses is more detrimental to the racquet than breaking the strings on court and finishing the point. I dont cut my strings on the court anyway. I do it when I get home. So then mounting the frame and removing the crosses and restringing them can not put more stress on the frame than by restringing all together. Granted I dont use polys and hardly ever gut and therefore almost always break mains first so this is no issue for me. If I were to use gut on the mains I would seriously think about restringing the crosses should they break first, or even cut them before they break to preserve the gut.

SW Stringer
10-18-2006, 07:01 AM
Sorry, psp2. I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but I have to reply this one.

When you are stringing fresh mains, you are not putting sudden pressure as one would be tensioning at an almost constant rate. However, when strings are cut, there is a SUDDEN change in tension.

Imagine if some slaps you suddenly as compared to another person pressing your cheek slowly to achieve the same pressure. Which would feel the most force?

I'll lift a line from jonolua's response above: "However, when strings are cut, there is a SUDDEN change in tension."

jonolua worries TOO much! Using inductive reasoning based on my past experience I'll expain why jonolua's worries are unfounded. Jonolua implies that a SUDDEN change in tension will somehow "damage" the racquet. Let's assume that he's correct. Then anytime a string breaks during play (almost inevitable) the frame is damaged. By inference, sooner or later this unseen (microscopic) damage will become visible and catastrophic resulting in a broken frame (attributable only to snapping strings and not something else like hitting the net cord, throwing the racquet, smashing it on the court, etc etc.). Referring to my log book of the past eight years of data I see that I've strung my personal racquets a total of 250 times . . . and since I only restring when a string breaks I've had 250 instances of SUDDEN change in tension on my racquet frames with NO VISIBLE DAMAGE. My conclusion: Jonolua's original premise is false! From my data I can infer that the racquet designers have engineered the frames with enough margin of error (extra strength) to withstand SUDDEN changes in tension caused by snapping strings and of course other much larger impulse events.

Maybe jonolua has data (not handwaving, smoke or mirrors) to back up his claim - I'm all ears.

SW Stringer
10-18-2006, 07:07 AM
psp2--if you're going to do it, the correct way would be as follows:

--Mount the racket in the machine
--Clamp the 2nd cross, klip the 1st cross, undo the knot, and remove the 1st cross
--Weave your new 1st cross and tension and clamp it.
--Clamp the 3rd cross, remove the 2nd, weave, tension and clamp the new 2nd cross
--Clamp the 4th, remove the 3rd, etc...

You can use a floating clamp to clamp the old cross and a fixed clamp to hold the new cross. If you only have floating clamps, you have to plan a little more and may have to do 2 at a time at first.

IMO way overkill!

Simply mount the racquet and clip out the crosses in reverse order of original installation.

jonolau
10-18-2006, 08:15 AM
I'll lift a line from jonolua's response above: "However, when strings are cut, there is a SUDDEN change in tension."

jonolua worries TOO much! Using inductive reasoning based on my past experience I'll expain why jonolua's worries are unfounded. Jonolua implies that a SUDDEN change in tension will somehow "damage" the racquet. Let's assume that he's correct. Then anytime a string breaks during play (almost inevitable) the frame is damaged. By inference, sooner or later this unseen (microscopic) damage will become visible and catastrophic resulting in a broken frame (attributable only to snapping strings and not something else like hitting the net cord, throwing the racquet, smashing it on the court, etc etc.). Referring to my log book of the past eight years of data I see that I've strung my personal racquets a total of 250 times . . . and since I only restring when a string breaks I've had 250 instances of SUDDEN change in tension on my racquet frames with NO VISIBLE DAMAGE. My conclusion: Jonolua's original premise is false! From my data I can infer that the racquet designers have engineered the frames with enough margin of error (extra strength) to withstand SUDDEN changes in tension caused by snapping strings and of course other much larger impulse events.

Maybe jonolua has data (not handwaving, smoke or mirrors) to back up his claim - I'm all ears.
1. Get my name right.
2. I have no beef with you, don't make it personal.
3. Whatever rocks your world. I, and many others, won't take the risks.

Richie Rich
10-18-2006, 11:36 AM
IMO way overkill!

Simply mount the racquet and clip out the crosses in reverse order of original installation.

well, you keep doing what you are doing. more power to you. All the MRT's and USRSA stringers I know don't recommend replacing crosses only. you get a crappy feeling string job and run a greater risk of racquet damage (not absolute but just greater risk). no disrespect, but I'll take my professional stringers advice over yours any day.

onkystomper
10-18-2006, 12:44 PM
this topic is a sticky

SW Stringer
10-19-2006, 06:58 AM
1. Get my name right.
2. I have no beef with you, don't make it personal.
3. Whatever rocks your world. I, and many others, won't take the risks.

1. Sorry jonolau.
2. Nothing personal intended.
3. What? you changing your name to Walter Mitty?:p

SW Stringer
10-19-2006, 07:01 AM
well, you keep doing what you are doing. more power to you. All the MRT's and USRSA stringers I know don't recommend replacing crosses only. you get a crappy feeling string job and run a greater risk of racquet damage (not absolute but just greater risk). no disrespect, but I'll take my professional stringers advice over yours any day.

Ok, whatever you say Walter!:p

Pusher
10-19-2006, 08:34 AM
psp2--if you're going to do it, the correct way would be as follows:

--Mount the racket in the machine
--Clamp the 2nd cross, klip the 1st cross, undo the knot, and remove the 1st cross
--Weave your new 1st cross and tension and clamp it.
--Clamp the 3rd cross, remove the 2nd, weave, tension and clamp the new 2nd cross
--Clamp the 4th, remove the 3rd, etc...

You can use a floating clamp to clamp the old cross and a fixed clamp to hold the new cross. If you only have floating clamps, you have to plan a little more and may have to do 2 at a time at first.


That sounds reasonable.

BTW, since this discussion is about cutting out crosses, usually when the mains are gut, is there any way to avoid the inconsistent loss in tension between gut and other type strings? Is there a non-gut string that will hold tension as long as gut-or at least come close?

Thanks