Muslim God (Allah) and Christian God the same? [Archive]

Mahboob Khan

10-30-2006, 11:43 PM

Well, it's a bit of a tricky question... any religion or supernatural belief in some sort of Supreme Being, no matter how they see that Supreme Being, as long as they It as Supreme, it's sorta talking about the same thing in a sense. Muslims want to claim their God Allah is also the God of the Bible (Yahweh/Elohim), but there seems to be some big differences in the character of the God presented in their respective Scriptures. As a Christian, I see the Bible presenting a God that requires faith for righteousness, whereas the Muslims see God requiring works for righteousness (faith=helpless trust; works=required performance; righteousness=worthiness before God). The difference between faith and works is pretty big, because the Christian says that no one is good enough for God without Jesus. Some find some Biblical passages that they use to say the Bible is works-based, but I'm a bit of an expert in the Bible and those Scriptures are always in the context of grace. So both Islam and Christianity see God as holy, but what kind of holiness and how to attain God's approval are really different. The rewards and punishments are different too. In my opinion, they are different enough that I wouldn't call them the same God—only in the sense that He is Creator and Supreme. Hope that helps.

It's an honor to be on the same Forum on which my good friend and Christian Brother, D-Man is.

We have covered this and other subjects in length under Rants and Raves (Mahboob - Sidetracked to Religion and Politics). I think we all sidetracked in that topic not just me.

Yes, it is the same God. However, our perception about the same God or Allah are different:

Islam believes that Allah is One; he has no partners to share his Godly powers. He has of course Messengers and Prophets to convey His message to people; and He has angels to serve Him. Islam believes that He has no father, mother, son, wife; but yes He is the Creator -- Creator of everything in the universe.

shrakkie

10-31-2006, 02:45 AM

muslims believe jesus existed and was a prophet of allah/god however was the not the son.and yes allah and god are the same entity

chroix

10-31-2006, 06:53 AM

According to the Koran yes, according to the bible no. The koran accepts all of the prophets from old and new testaments but their theory is that clergy/institutions *******ed the prophets messages over time for political control. IMO it is sad that now Muslim clergy do the same to advance their own causes. I am an atheist who is very interested in philosophy and I think the Shakers are the closest thing to piety out there.

kevhen

10-31-2006, 07:06 AM

Creator of the Universe is the same for everyone.

max

10-31-2006, 12:21 PM

Not to be a jerk or anything, but I believe in a trinitarian God, which includes Jesus, which may be a difficult thing for Muslims to also believe in.

I also, by the way, find that "faith vs. works" notion to be a bogus distinction in this respect: if you TRULY believe, you will want to ACT in accord with these beliefs. I say it's bogus because the people who harp on this tend to junk Catholics by claiming that Catholics want to buy their way into heaven rather than believe in Jesus. But a lot of Protestants just take in this distinction without much thinking: heck, we act upon anything we seriously believe.

sharapovalover

10-31-2006, 12:54 PM

nopiforyou

10-31-2006, 04:18 PM

Phil

10-31-2006, 05:23 PM

Didn't a lot of the history in the Bible go in the middle east? Doesn't that mean that Islam and Christianity must have very similar if not same origins? And what importance does Muhammed have in Islam?

Huh? Really, kid, you need to go back and actually READ about these things if they truely interest you. Kudos for your curiosity, but the best way to satisfy your hunger for knowledge is not through soliciting opinions/advice on a tennis chat board (though there are some bright people here...it's just not the place). Your questions are SO basic and so obvious, that you're better off reading one of those "For Dummies" books or just borrowing a legit book from your local library...a basic history of Islam will do for starters. C'mon, have some initiative here...don't expect someone else to hold your hand.

nopiforyou

10-31-2006, 05:49 PM

I guess my laziness does get noticed.

10sfreak

10-31-2006, 07:28 PM

Huh? Really, kid, you need to go back and actually READ about these things if they truely interest you. Kudos for your curiosity, but the best way to satisfy your hunger for knowledge is not through soliciting opinions/advice on a tennis chat board (though there are some bright people here...it's just not the place). Your questions are SO basic and so obvious, that you're better off reading one of those "For Dummies" books or just borrowing a legit book from your local library...a basic history of Islam will do for starters. C'mon, have some initiative here...don't expect someone else to hold your hand.

Good post Phil! I was thinking along the same lines, but you beat me to the punch!

Kaptain Karl

10-31-2006, 09:23 PM

... it seems to me like "believing in Jesus" has nothing to do with the way a lot of people act toward others.Good seque from the "faith -vs- works" stuff above your post....

The way Christians demonstrate their belief in Jesus is they follow His Word. (Their behavior (works) "proves" their belief (faith) to other believers.) This is why Christians all over are chastising that "Rev. Phelps" wingnut. He sullies the name of Christ; he doesn't represent Jesus at all. (Same for the deceptive TV preachers and the pedophile Priests.)

BUT ... part of the proof of the freedoms we have in this country is ... dopes like those guys are still around, spewing their nonsense. We Christians can't stand how they tarnish the name of Christ ... but we US citizens know they have the same rights we do....

- KK

ThePlungerMan

10-31-2006, 10:35 PM

I see the Bible presenting a God that requires faith for righteousness, whereas the Muslims see God requiring works for righteousness (faith=helpless trust; works=required performance; righteousness=worthiness before God). The difference between faith and works is pretty big,,, helps.

Something to ponder.
Often when we are confronted with having to make a decision between two ideas, we pick the one that makes the most sense

Muslim God:
If you were God would you want humans running around bragging about what good works they do, (silently or publicly). Would you also want the humans you love to live in fear of whether they get to meet you based on works on earth.

God of The Bible:
Or would you want the humans you love to have the assurance of salvation by faith alone in Christ. You who came to earth as a man.
THEN, with this faith comes the really cool part. You get indwelt with The Holy Sprit (part of The Trinity). And the degree to which he works for you, depends on your ways. Reading and studying The Bible. Turning from sin, i.e. staying out of strip clubs. (Haven’t been to one since I became born again). The more you allow God to work in your life through you, the more he does. Like pointing you in the right direction to do good works. Love you neighbor stuff, etc.

mohmoh

10-31-2006, 11:26 PM

The more you allow God to work in your life through you, the more he does. Like pointing you in the right direction to do good works. Love you neighbor stuff, etc.

This is exactly what muslims believe. They pray five times aday, fast in the month of Ramadan, go to Hajj, try to avoid big sins...etc in order to satisfy GOD (ALLAH) so that he shows them the path to paradise.

max

11-01-2006, 10:08 AM

re: Geezer Guy's comments. This is another example of "selective instance" in which one counterexample (bad behavior in this instance) makes all of the rest of the group worthless. That's like me saying I had cold french fries at a McDonald's restaurant once, and, hence, every single McDonald's restaurant on earth serves cold french fries.

With respect to being religious, I think it's always going to be easy to find hypocrites. They help point the finger at themselves by their declaration of being religious! I guess I give a lot of credit to people who are religious for at least TRYING to live a good life, even though, human beings being fallible and prone to sin, have a hard time doing this. Heck, that's why I go to church; to try to be a good man, a better man.

I'm also, for what it's worth, always miffed at people who identify themselves as atheists, but who can't really say what they see as wrong about a belief in God. It's just a style-point kind of thing for some; no real effort at understanding man's spiritual dimension.

Geezer Guy

11-02-2006, 12:14 PM

re: Geezer Guy's comments. This is another example of "selective instance" in which one counterexample (bad behavior in this instance) makes all of the rest of the group worthless. That's like me saying I had cold french fries at a McDonald's restaurant once, and, hence, every single McDonald's restaurant on earth serves cold french fries...

Well, that's not what I was trying to say, so that didn't come out right. Sorry. I was trying to say that a "lot" of people that say they believe in Jesus act pretty inhumanely towards others. I wasn't trying to say that ALL or maybe even MOST act that way, just a LOT of them do. Admitedly, those that do tend to draw attention to themselves so it may seem like there's more than there really are.

Like having some 4.5 sandbaggers in a 3.5 league. Any is too many, and some people will say that everyone in the league is sandbagging. No, just a few are, but they get all the attention.

Dunlopkid

11-02-2006, 12:19 PM

This is exactly what muslims believe. They pray five times aday, fast in the month of Ramadan, go to Hajj, try to avoid big sins...etc in order to satisfy GOD (ALLAH) so that he shows them the path to paradise.

You missed the point. For a Muslim, those aforementioned actions are the way to get into heaven. For a Christian, those actions are done out of love for his Savior.

Mahboob Khan

11-03-2006, 09:04 AM

They share many of the same stories. Jesus is considered a prophet in Islam, so that's gotta mean something. Not THE prophet, that would be Mohammed, but a great prophet nonetheless.

The arabs were polytheists before Mohammed, who quite taken by the sophistication of a monotheism, introduced them to the idea of one god. One book I read said his sister in law was one of the few people, perhaps the ONLY person, in the Arab world at the time translating Judeo Christian scriptures into Arabic. The implication was that he was greatly influenced by what he read.

To me, if it can be argued that the Islamic god and the Christan god are two different gods, then you would also have to make the same distinction between Judaism and Christianity. If the Christian god is made up of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, than that's definitely not the god of the Jews.

You implied that a sister in law of Muhammad translated some Judeo Christian Books into Arabic language because he was greatly influenced by what he read? This statement is based on your ignorance about Muhammad who could not read and write. He was an illiterate, and that's the greatest miracle indeed that Al-Qura'an was revealed to the Final Messenger of Allah who could not read and write. Al-Qura'an is not a copy of the Bible. Yes, some fundamentals are bound to be the same because afterall Bible and Al-Qura'an are from the same source and origin.

And yes, if the Christian God is made up of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, then that's definitely not the God of the Muslims.

Mahboob Khan

11-03-2006, 09:18 AM

God told Abraham (Abram) to go to the promised land. Abram had two son's Issac And Ishmael. Issac continued with Judaism and Ishmael with Muslim. In essence Allah and the Christian god are the same god. They aren't though because of the two perspectives of both religions.

Abraham had two sons Ismail and Isaac (Ismail was 14 years older than Isaac). You mean Abraham, the father of Prophets, allowed his sons to preach two different religions? Impossible. The fact that Ismail and Isaac grew up in different regions does not mean that they preached different religions! Religion with Allah was/is always Islam. The earlier Prophets Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Yacob, Yousaf (Josef), Moses, and Jesus preached just one religion. That's Islamic belief.

It is quite strange that Jews said, "Abraham was a Jew", and Christians said, "Abraham was a Christian" without realizing that Abraham came and passed away before Tora and Bible!

Kaptain Karl

11-03-2006, 12:20 PM

You mean Abraham, the father of Prophets, allowed his sons to preach two different religions?Well, that's not exactly what he posted, but I see how you could "read that" from what he wrote.

Religion with Allah was/is always Islam.Since the OT pre-dates Islam -- and the OT doesn't say what you claim -- I'm going with the Old Testament (Torah).

It is quite strange that Jews said, "Abraham was a Jew" ...They don't. They say "Abraham was a Father of the Hebrew faith. (That's not quite the same thing you're claiming they say....)

... and Christians said, "Abraham was a Christian" ... We don't. Just as with the Jews, we *do* call him a "Father" of our faith. Which is accurate.

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-03-2006, 04:38 PM

KK wrote: "Since the OT pre-dates Islam -- and the OT doesn't say what you claim -- I'm going with the Old Testament (Torah)".

Well, that's the tragedy! The Tora or OT was given to Moses and in that Scripture some of the "revelations" given to Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac, were also saved. I read in the OT that Moses told his nation, "do not ascribe patners onto the Lord God; verify, He does not like partners". DO NOT ASCRIBE PARTNERS ONTO THE LORD GOD. This is the core of Islam which means "complete submission to the commands and wills of ONE God", and Muslim is a follower of Islam or who has submitted to the wills and commands of ONE God. I could be describe in two ways (both ways are the same). I am a Muslim; or I have submitted to the wills and commands of Allah. If Jesus or Moses or for that matter any Prophets of Allah, had submitted themselves to the wills and commands of Allah, they are Muslims for they have submitted to the wills and commands of Allah. Sir, the religion with your God is just ONE. For argument sake it could be either Judaism, Christianity, or as we claim Al-Islam. Islam makes sense because it believes in the entire process of Islamization; it believes in earlier Prophets, earlier Books, and the last Messenger and last Book Al-Qura'an. All the earlier Prophets and Messengers asked their people to turn to ONE LORD God, yes their prayer systems, procedures (sharia), etc., were different and got evolved over time. Unfortunately, Tora and Bible do not exist any more in their original form and text and the original message of the earlier prophets got deleted and/or replaced to suit the demands of the Kings and rulers of the time. In the other thread, Mr. D-Man claimed that he got the original Bible in Greek. I said, "Jesus Christ spoke Aramaic language and the Bible is in Greek language". He said, that the Bible was written after Jesus's departure from this earth, and the writers belonged to Greek. Add insult to injury, now you have Bible in English in which even the names have been changed. Ask any Jew, he will tell you that the name is Ibraheem/ephraheem NOT Abraham; the name is Isma'eel NOT Ishmail, Yacob NOT Jacob, Yusaf NOT Joseph, Moosa not Moses, Meryam not Mary, Isa NOT Jesus, Dawood not David, Sulaiman not Solomon, Yahya not John and so on. Let's not forget that all Prophets/Messengers of God came in the Middle East and that's why ought to have Middle Eastern names. You tried to Americanize even the Bible. Sir, we do believe in OT and Bible -- the original OT and Bible -- not the one that you have. With the changing times you keep on revising your Holy Books and claim that they are from God and expect us to believe them as original. It does not make any sense. We believe that whatever got lost, thrown out of the window, deleted, replaced, and/or revised in OT/Bible, has been retained in Al-Qura'an and that's the truth nothing but the truth, but for some reasons you do not get that.

And OT does not pre-dates Islam. In fact, Islam pre-dates OT because, "Enud deena endallah hil Islam" the religion with God is Islam and God predates OT. If you are correct in your claim, then OT also predates Christianity!!! Think, KK, think. Whatever you are saying or believing is illogical because religion with God is One. The question is which one? It is against logic that God sanctioned different religions for different times for different people. The tennis court was a tennis court. It's basic length and width are about the same as they were originally conceived, yes over time the surface got improved, the tennis equipment got improved, and players improved in physique and technique!

Mahboob Khan

11-03-2006, 04:49 PM

Jews dubb Abraham as Father of Jewish faith, and Christians dubb Abraham Father of Christian faith which means:

Because he was father of the Jewish faith, he was a Jew.

Because he was father of the Christian faith, he was a Christian.

KK, the contradiction in your statement is quite apparent.

And Al-Qura'an says:

"ma kana Ibraheemo Yahoodian wala Nasranian, walaken kana haneefen Muslemen, wa ma kana minul Mushrekeen".

"Ibraheem was not a Jew, he was not a Christian but an upright follower of Islam; and was not among those who ascribed partners onto the Lord God".

In other words Ibraheem (your Abraham) was father of the Muslim faith.

max

11-03-2006, 05:18 PM

Geezer guy; you're okay, sorry if I seemed offbeat or tense, etc., above; goes to prove the limitations of this quickie form of communications. Real talk is superior to typed notes.

ThePlungerMan

11-03-2006, 07:19 PM

KK wrote: "Since the OT pre-dates Islam -- and the OT doesn't say what you claim -- I'm going with the Old Testament (Torah)".

Well, that's the tragedy!,,,,,,,,,,
This is the core of Islam which means "complete submission to the commands and wills of ONE God", and Muslim is a follower of Islam or who has submitted to the wills and commands of ONE God. I could be describe in two ways (both ways are the same). I am a Muslim; or I have submitted to the wills and commands of Allah. If Jesus or Moses or for that matter any Prophets of Allah, had submitted themselves to the wills and commands of Allah, they are Muslims for they have submitted to the wills and commands of Allah. Sir, the religion with your God is just ONE. For argument sake it could be either Judaism, Christianity, or as we claim Al-Islam. Islam makes sense ,,,,,,,,,
I‘m going to stop there.
Wake up and smell the coffee.
How do you go on about this nonsense preaching? to a forum read by a Christian of the Bible and then get whiney and claim your being attacked when you are razzed by me. Your totally saying in hundreds of words what I say in many less.
Like,,,, when I say Islam is a false religion. That’s the same as hundreds of words regarding false teachings you just posted. It’s like Jesus was either who he said he was or a lunatic. One or the other my man, one or the other, period. OK? So want to go on and post this stuff you post about Islam? go ahead, but look for me in the rear view mirror. I’m not leaving you alone to post what I believe Islam to be, false teachings.

IMHO The tragedy is that you believe in a God invented by a man. I believe in The God who came to earth as a man called Jesus Christ The Lord. The alpha, the omega. Etc etc.
Want to be a Muslim? That’s cool go ahead, but don’t come here posting your take on Jesus as preached by a mere man, mortal, etc and expect me not to get mad. Take your lumps and quit acting surprised by retaliatory rebuttals, as you did in the other thread concerning this false (my take on it as preached to me by preachers that God lead me to) religion.

Thanks for letting me share.

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 12:44 AM

You missed the point. For a Muslim, those aforementioned actions are the way to get into heaven. For a Christian, those actions are done out of love for his Savior.

In Islam, you can either obey God (Allah) so he accepts u in heaven, or to save u from hell or because u love him. All of them are accepted, the last one is the ideal one and it is the one which only few people can do. But you have to love Allah in all cases.

35ft6

11-04-2006, 02:37 AM

You implied that a sister in law of Muhammad translated some Judeo Christian Books into Arabic language because he was greatly influenced by what he read? This statement is based on your ignorance about Muhammad who could not read and write. I corrected myself and said it was the cousin of his wife Khadija. Okay, he couldn't read or write, but I assume he could listen and talk?

ThePlungerMan

11-04-2006, 09:45 AM

Sir, muslims believe in God who:

- Created everything in the universe.
- Created Angels to serve him.
- Sent all the prohpets to guide human beings on how to worship him.
- will send all human beings after death for the day of judgement.
- will decide who will go to hell and who will go to paradise
- has the keys to everything in the universe

If christians believe in this God then both muslims and christians worship the same God. If christians don't believe in this God, then muslims and christians worship different God.

Very simple and don't make it complicated.
What’s this kind of false argument called?
I don’t know.
But it’s called counterfeiting, that I know. The God in The Bible isn’t The god of the Quran.
Are you a con man?

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 10:26 AM

What’s this kind of false argument called?
I don’t know.
But it’s called counterfeiting, that I know. The God in The Bible isn’t The god of the Quran.
Are you a con man?

I don't understand, what's wrong with this argument. What do you think muslims believe in?

And what is being counterfeited here? The things I listed in my post are some of the basics of Islamic beliefs. If you don't know this, then you don't know anything about Islam.

Mahboob Khan

11-04-2006, 10:43 AM

I corrected myself and said it was the cousin of his wife Khadija. Okay, he couldn't read or write, but I assume he could listen and talk?

Allah revealed Al-Qura'an to Muhammad through Jibraeel (Gabriel) and then Muhammad would dictate the revealed text to the "Katibeen e Wahee" "the Writers of the revealed Text". All the writers were men. None of them was a woman. Our belief is that Qura'an is word by word from Allah. However, the placement of chapters in the form of a Book, was done by the Messenger of Allah. Al-Qura'an was not authored by a man, it was assembled in the form of a book by Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Dunlopkid

11-04-2006, 10:47 AM

In Islam, you can either obey God (Allah) so he accepts u in heaven, or to save u from hell or because u love him. All of them are accepted, the last one is the ideal one and it is the one which only few people can do. But you have to love Allah in all cases.

You're still missing the point. God saves the Christian, then AFTER that, the Christian loves God. He doesn't start obeying God's Law just so he can get into heaven. In fact humans have no desire to obey God's Law until after they are saved.

ThePlungerMan

11-04-2006, 10:49 AM

I don't understand, what's wrong with this argument. What do you think muslims believe in?

And what is being counterfeited here? The things I listed in my post are some of the basics of Islamic beliefs. If you don't know this, then you don't know anything about Islam.
Are you kidding me? You don’t know what I’m saying?

Ok, here you go, I hope this is so simple your only choice is to state you believe otherwise.

A self appointed prophet going by the name of Mohammed gave his take on what he thought God was, he used The Bible, stories in it, and names in it, to give his tale credibility.

Mahboob Khan

11-04-2006, 11:21 AM

Are you kidding me? You don’t know what I’m saying?

Ok, here you go, I hope this is so simple your only choice is to state you believe otherwise.

A self appointed prophet going by the name of Mohammed gave his take on what he thought God was, he used The Bible, stories in it, and names in it, to give his tale credibility.

I have read and heard this before. You said that Qura'an is a copy of Bible. If that's the case why don't you believe in Qura'an? Because it is a copy of Bible? Sir, try to understand this fully:

What we are saying that the original word of God got lost over a period of time. The current OT/Bible is not the one revealed by God to His Earlier Messengers. It's a changed version. The actual truer Book of God is Qura'an. The title, "King James Version" suggests that it is a version and there are many other versions, when we also know that during the time of Roman Emperor Constantine, some Gospels got discarded. He retained the four authored by Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John. The beauty is that all these four men are non-Middle Eastern whereas the original OT/Bible was revealed in the Middle East. For example, Jesus Christ never visited United States, and did not speak English. He spoke Aramaic language whereas Bible was written about 60 to 100 years later by Greek writers. Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John recorded their recollections about Jesus Christ. Even D-Man confirmed this to me that most of the original names in the Bible got changed. For example, the original name is Meryam whereas the English name is Mary; the original name is Isa whereas English name is Jesus; the original name is Yousaf whereas English name is Joseph, the original name is Yacob the English name is Jacob, the original name is Ibraheem, the English name is Abraham. It's a common sense call: when the names got changed, how about the text???? And when Emperor Constantine discarded several Gospels, what's the guarantee that he did not discard the original one? You want to see the original one? Come, visit Qura'an and you will find your Jesus Christ in it .. the original Jesus Christ (Isa son of Meryam).

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 11:26 AM

Dunlopkid

11-04-2006, 11:41 AM

You hit it right on, PlungerMan.

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 12:23 PM

You're still missing the point. God saves the Christian, then AFTER that, the Christian loves God. He doesn't start obeying God's Law just so he can get into heaven. In fact humans have no desire to obey God's Law until after they are saved.

So, only because God saves christians, then they obey and worship him? Does this make sense? Why would God save christians, jews, muslims or others if they don't obey and worship him?

You can get your degree only if you pass the exam, and you pass the exam only if you work hard to get a good degree. You can not pass the exam by just saying that the instructor is nice and I love him.

In Islam, God has no prejudice. If you believe in him, follow his orders and be nice to others, then you get his mercy and go to heaven. If you believe in him without following his orders, then you may still go to heaven but you will be judged for your deeds, if your good deeds surpasses your bad deeds, then you go to heaven. If your bad deeds surpasses your good deeds, then you go to hell for certain period of time and then with God's mercy you'll be transferred to heaven.

Dunlopkid

11-04-2006, 12:29 PM

ThePlungerMan

11-04-2006, 12:41 PM

I told you, you know nothing about Islam. And this is why, I will not waste much time in a pointless argument.
Um WHAT? You asked a simple question I gave simple answer, (that you don’t like) so you act like an ostrich,,,, you know stick your head in the sand and pretend I didn’t say anything that warranted a response from you ,,,, shame on you

And another thing, ‘’’just got here after 6 hundred plus posts‘’’’ Read the thread before you pretend you know what others are saying or have said.

You hit it right on, PlungerMan.
I Know,,,, Thanks

Praise The Lord Jesus Christ. The one who will come back one day and set up his kingdom and prove all other religions false.

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 01:48 PM

Yes, that's what I'm saying. This is what the Bible says, like it or not.

It is juxtaposed against the works-based salvation of Islam. This is one of the things that sets Christianity apart from all other world religions. Let me ask you this: if God is holy, how can you still sin and be let into heaven? Does this make sense? (No.) For the Christian this problems is resolved through Christ.

Human beings are sinners. They can make sins and ask God for forgiveness. If they are sincere in their repentness, then God will forgive them. God is very powerful, he can hear, see and listen to what we say, do and even think in our hearts. so, he knows if a person is sincere in his/her repentness or not.I hope you agree with this.

Now, if the sins which were commited are big, like intentionally killing others without any reason, then one way or another they will be punished. Again, if they sincerely repents from the sins, then most likely they'll be saved.

Again, according to muslim beliefs, no one gurantees that he/she will go to heaven, no matter what they do. Only after they die and in the day of judgement, their deeds will be measured by God and with God's mercy they'll go to heaven.

Now, I don't understand why Jesus has to die for our sins. How about the people who came before him? what's their destiny? And who would save them? And if I commit a sin, then how will Jesus save me?

Honestly, I don't understand it.

nopiforyou

11-04-2006, 02:01 PM

Human beings are sinners. They can make sins and ask God for forgiveness. If they are sincere in their repentness, then God will forgive them. God is very powerful, he can hear, see and listen to what we say, do and even think in our hearts. so, he knows if a person is sincere in his/her repentness or not.I hope you agree with this.

Now, if the sins which were commited are big, like intentionally killing others without any reason, then one way or another they will be punished. Again, if they sincerely repents from the sins, then most likely they'll be saved.

Again, according to muslim beliefs, no one gurantees that he/she will go to heaven, no matter what they do. Only after they die and in the day of judgement, their deeds will be measured by God and with God's mercy they'll go to heaven.

Now, I don't understand why Jesus has to die for our sins. How about the people who came before him? what's their destiny? And who would save them? And if I commit a sin, then how will Jesus save me?

Honestly, I don't understand it.

Okay, in the Old Testament in the Bible, sins were forgiven by sacrificing a lamb (I'm pretty sure) because they were expensive and meant a price. Jesus was then crucified and said that his sacrifice was a forgiveness to all siners and their sins (this means the world will end someday). Basically, God the Father sacrificed God the Son, despite it being part of him to forgive mankind. Despite how it was mankind who killed Jesus.

On your Muslim beliefs that not every Muslim is able to go to heaven thing. Then are the ones who commit suicide as suicide bombers in Iraq not go to heaven like they were promised. That's pretty much one of the main reasons that they choose to sacrifice themselves, because it "guarentees" salvation.

Dunlopkid

11-04-2006, 02:08 PM

35ft6

11-04-2006, 05:30 PM

Allah revealed Al-Qura'an to Muhammad through Jibraeel (Gabriel) and then Muhammad would dictate the revealed text to the "Katibeen e Wahee" "the Writers of the revealed Text". All the writers were men. None of them was a woman. Our belief is that Qura'an is word by word from Allah. However, the placement of chapters in the form of a Book, was done by the Messenger of Allah. Al-Qura'an was not authored by a man, it was assembled in the form of a book by Muhammad (peace be upon him). I'm not saying a woman "wrote" the Koran any more than I would say "Jesus wrote the Bible." What I'm suggesting is that Christian mythology might have influenced Mohammed, especially the monotheism part, which was considered cutting edge religion at the time, that the circumstances were in place where Mohammed could have gotten the proper exposure. But I'm looking at it from a secular historical point of view.

ThePlungerMan

11-04-2006, 07:12 PM

I’ve been trying to think of something catchy to say that will exonerated me for my aggressive posting here, but nothing comes to me that makes sense. So I’m sorry for getting bent of shape at times.

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 08:21 PM

Mohmoh,

I appreciate your honest inquiry. Obviously, we both agree humans are sinners. I think it would take a very long post and a lot of details to answer all your questions. However, here's a couple quick answers. Jesus had to die to take away the penalty of our sins. Asking forgiveness is nice, but it will not remove a punishment. For example, let's say you broke into somebody's house. You go to trial. Your judge happens to be the owner of the house you broke into. Perhaps you ask his forgivenss, and he might genuinely grant it (though unlikely because he is human.) Nevertheless, you still have to go to jail for your crime. In the same way, Christ died for sinners so that the sinners don't have to suffer eternal death.

What about those coming before Jesus? They trusted in the covenant promises that he would provide a Savior for them. They didn't know his name, but they trusted in him.

To have Jesus save you, you must put your faith in him, ask for forgivness of your sins, and ask him to be your Lord.

Hope this helps,

Dunlopkid

Really appreciate your explanation, but it is still not that clear.

-First, why would Lord (Allah or God) the creator of everything, who can do whatever he wants without anyone judging him, why would he need Jesus tortured and killed to forgive his followers?

-Second, if I understand it correctly, whoever commits a sin, if he/she believes in Jesus as his Lord, then he/she gets away with it because Jesus died for his/her sin? If this is true, then this would encourage those who believe in Jesus to commit sins because they know that they will get away with it because they believe in Jesus.

I'm really interested to know your comments on these points if u don't mind.

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 08:42 PM

On your Muslim beliefs that not every Muslim is able to go to heaven thing. Then are the ones who commit suicide as suicide bombers in Iraq not go to heaven like they were promised. That's pretty much one of the main reasons that they choose to sacrifice themselves, because it "guarentees" salvation.

Killing a human being is one of the big sins in Islam. Only under certain circumstances, you are allowed to kill some one.

- If you are defending yourself, you have to fight back. I think this is a normal thing to do.

- If you are defending your country from the enemy, then you can kill them while defending it.

- If you have no choice, but to kill yourself while defending yourself or your country. This situation was allowed by the modern muslim scholars.

So, those who commit suicide in Iraq, just to kill civilians who are on the street, are ofcourse against the muslim belief. But first, who can confirm that these killings are done by suicide bombers? And who can confirm that these are not plots done to blackmail the resistance movement in Iraq? Don't tell me the US army or the Iraqi government, they are all liers.

I hope this answers your question.

ThePlungerMan

11-04-2006, 09:01 PM

Really appreciate your explanation, but it is still not that clear.

-First, why would Lord (Allah or God) the creator of everything, who can do whatever he wants without anyone judging him, why would he need Jesus tortured and killed to forgive his followers?

-Second, if I understand it correctly, whoever commits a sin, if he/she believes in Jesus as his Lord, then he/she gets away with it because Jesus died for his/her sin? If this is true, then this would encourage those who believe in Jesus to commit sins because they know that they will get away with it because they believe in Jesus.

I'm really interested to know your comments on these points if u don't mind.
I’d like to jump in if you don’t mind. This answers your question fully. And note, God didn’t need to come down as man, he chose to. It all comes down to God having to deal with the sin issue. Sin has to be dealt with. This is how he chose to deal with it. It so darn simple yet others who reject this do so with over the top, make it more difficult than it is, reasoning.,
John 3-14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed……... (me here) This pertains to your assumption we will (can) sin because we know we can get away with it) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

nicegameyousuck

11-04-2006, 09:35 PM

Jesus admits "..my Father is greater than I", {John 14:28}

"I can of mine own self do nothing...," {John 5:30}

"For there is One God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", (I Timothy 2:5).

mohmoh

11-04-2006, 10:34 PM

I’d like to jump in if you don’t mind. This answers your question fully. And note, God didn’t need to come down as man, he chose to. It all comes down to God having to deal with the sin issue. Sin has to be dealt with. This is how he chose to deal with it. It so darn simple yet others who reject this do so with over the top, make it more difficult than it is, reasoning.,
John 3-14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed……... (me here) This pertains to your assumption we will (can) sin because we know we can get away with it) ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God.

But muslims believe in him and they highly appreciate him and his mother marry. He is considered among the top 5 prophets (Noah, Abraham, Moses. Jesus and Mohammed). In fact, their belief is not complete unless they believe in and highly appreciate him. And in the above quotes, it does not say that those who do not believe that he is the son of God are condemned. It says those who do not believe in him are condemned. What do u say on this?

However, muslims, as u know, don't accept that he is the son of God (Allah). As God is unique in everything, he does not resemble anything else and he does not need a son or a partner to share him his Kingdom.(But rest assure, Islam does not tell muslims to fight Christians for this belief :) ).

Mahboob Khan

11-05-2006, 05:29 AM

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 07:26 AM

Phil

11-05-2006, 07:39 AM

I have a small message to everyone who makes fun or joke of God (Allah).

At least in this issue, be a little serious. Ok God (Allah) is mercifull, but whoever makes fun of him will burn in hell big time and will stay in hell forever. It is just an advise from some person, whoever hat person is.

I know that you like to have a sense of humar, but when it comes to God (Allah), be serious a little, it won't hurt you. God (Allah) created us for a reason and he made us different from each others for a reason and he ordered us to worship him until we die. After death, everyone of us will be asked about the very small details of the things he/she did. If the person passes this big exam of life then he will go to heaven, otherwise he will go to hell. It is not a joke, it is a very serious issue, much more serious than anyone of us thinks.

Big Almighty God (Allah) who perfected everything in the universe does not joke with us. And anyone who does not believe in this basic belief will burn in hell. (Just an advise)

"...burn in Hell big time..."...hmmm...are those words taken directly from The Quran?

I don't believe in Allah, so sorry, but your statements sound like fairly tales to me. YOU'LL burn in hell, or so you believe, if you run afoul of Allah...this is YOUR concern, not mine or quite a few others on this board. Allah, or whomever, is not going to quiz me on my life...if He was ominiscient, then He wouldn't have to ask anyway, now would he?

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 08:00 AM

"...burn in Hell big time..."...hmmm...are those words taken directly from The Quran?

I don't believe in Allah, so sorry, but your statements sound like fairly tales to me. YOU'LL burn in hell, or so you believe, if you run afoul of Allah...this is YOUR concern, not mine or quite a few others on this board. Allah, or whomever, is not going to quiz me on my life...if He was ominiscient, then He wouldn't have to ask anyway, now would he?

As I said, Phil, it was just an advise. Take it or leave it. You'll only get to see the reality after you die. Or may God guide you and everyone to the right path.

Mahboob Khan

11-05-2006, 05:12 PM

As I said, Phil, it was just an advise. Take it or leave it. You'll only get to see the reality after you die. Or may God guide you and everyone to the right path.

Ameen.

God is God. He has revealed the truth in His Book through His Final Messenger. Now, if He is lying, or if His Messenger is lying; or we are lying about Him, or if you are in the dark, or if you believe you are right in your religion, or lack of it; of course, you have reasons to be right in your belief and we have no business to interfere in it; or if you are mistaken because you got a message which got distorted overtime; or it's now impossible to see any other religion because of your beliefs which are cast in concrete; you will, and we will, and everybody else will, find out after our death, because I do not believe we all will be alive during the second coming of Isa bin Meryam (Jesus Christ). Yes, through the second coming of Jesus Christ, the truth will be re-revealed and true religion -- the religion with Allah -- shall prevail all over the world. But this will occur close to The Hour. That's why Jesus has been referred to in Al-Qura'an as "Sign of the Hour".

And if I have highlighted some good things about Jesus Christ (Isa son of Meryam), I am sure that he and his friend, Muhammad, will, insha'allah, recommend my case to Allah for forgiveness!

Phil: I realized that I had used foul language about you. I apologize to you from the core of my heart. I am really ashamed that I used such a stupid language about you, Phil. I hope you will forgive me. OK, brother? And Phil, if I know that I am wrong, I will never recommend that wrong for you . never.

ThePlungerMan

11-05-2006, 05:41 PM

But muslims believe in him and they highly appreciate him and his mother marry. He is considered among the top 5 prophets (Noah, Abraham, Moses. Jesus and Mohammed). In fact, their belief is not complete unless they believe in and highly appreciate him. And in the above quotes, it does not say that those who do not believe that he is the son of God are condemned. It says those who do not believe in him are condemned. What do u say on this?
He is either Lord (God) or lunatic. He isn’t a cool dude that had a lot of cool things to say.
Think, Jesus is God, and the above quotes makes sense.

I have a small message to everyone who makes fun or joke of God (Allah).

At least in this issue, be a little serious. Ok God (Allah) is mercifull, but whoever makes fun of him will burn in hell big time and will stay in hell forever. It is just an advise from some person, whoever hat person is.
This per your Quran and per what has been taught to you from day 1.
In the bible it tells us we can give God the big bird (finger) (I have may times) all the way to the time you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, repent of your sins, then voila, your in.

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 06:35 PM

He is either Lord (God) or lunatic. He isn’t a cool dude that had a lot of cool things to say.
Think, Jesus is God, and the above quotes makes sense.

In your previous post, the scripts you posted said the God, the Creator, was sending his son to correct things. And now, you are saying that Jesus is God. How is that, is God or son of God? They are two different things.

This per your Quran and per what has been taught to you from day 1. In the bible it tells us we can give God the big bird (finger) (I have may times) all the way to the time you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, repent of your sins, then voila, your in

I mentioned in previous posts that whoever commits a sin and repents from that sin, then they'll be foregiven by God (Allah). And in my post, I was just advising those who mock God not to do that or they'll be punished by him. I hope you agree with this.

Phil

11-05-2006, 06:41 PM

Phil: I realized that I had used foul language about you. I apologize to you from the core of my heart. I am really ashamed that I used such a stupid language about you, Phil. I hope you will forgive me. OK, brother? And Phil, if I know that I am wrong, I will never recommend that wrong for you . never.

Well, I don't recall you actually using "foul language" about me, but if you did, well then I accept your apology. However, I don't really think an apology from you is necessary. After all, I referred to you (in a discussion with someone else) as a di*k head (and didn't apologize).

slice bh compliment

11-05-2006, 06:54 PM

In your previous post, the scripts you posted said the God, the Creator, was sending his son to correct things. And now, you are saying that Jesus is God. How is that, is God or son of God? They are two different things. ....

Dear MohammedMohammed,

This Father, Son and Holy Spirit concept is one of those points that Muslims consistently find strange about us. And we Christians tend to explain it poorly, probably because we do not feel it needs explanation. Or maybe we don't even get it totally (not that there's anything wrong with a little mystery in our faith).

Naturally, this is a matter of faith. Obviously. But we express God as God the Father AND Jesus the Son AND the Holy Spirit as well. Three Gods? No. Just one.

The 'Tri-une God' is an expression that makes sense to me. Still one God.
What is another way to put it? Three characters? Three elements? Three sides of a triangle? The Holy Trinity.

I've got another one for you, and this is from the Hebrew scriptures (Followers of Christ call it the Old Testament): God is love. Wait a minute. He is God the Creator. He is Jesus. He is the Holy Spirit. And he's been LOVE all along, too? That's what, 4 Gods now?
No. Just one.

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 07:29 PM

Dear MohammedMohammed,

This Father, Son and Holy Spirit concept is one of those points that Muslims consistently find strange about us. And we Christians tend to explain it poorly, probably because we do not feel it needs explanation. Or maybe we don't even get it totally (not that there's anything wrong with a little mystery in our faith).

Naturally, this is a matter of faith. Obviously. But we express God as God the Father AND Jesus the Son AND the Holy Spirit as well. Three Gods? No. Just one.

The 'Tri-une God' is an expression that makes sense to me. Still one God.
What is another way to put it? Three characters? Three elements? Three sides of a triangle? The Holy Trinity.

I've got another one for you, and this is from the Hebrew scriptures (Followers of Christ call it the Old Testament): God is love. Wait a minute. He is God the Creator. He is Jesus. He is the Holy Spirit. And he's been LOVE all along, too? That's what, 4 Gods now?
No. Just one.

I hope u r not offended by this, but does this make sense to u? Honestly, it does not make sense to me. Istead of pleasing and obeying one God, now u have to worship 3 or 4. And if God (The Creator) was unique before he created any thing, why would he need to create other Gods and ask people to worship them? They may enter into conflict between themselves and things will be in a mess all over the universe.

slice bh compliment

11-05-2006, 07:58 PM

...Honestly, it does not make sense to me....

Thanks for the question. No offense taken at all. But this is precisely what I was trying to say. This one of the (many?) concepts Muslims and followers of Jesus have never really gotten on the same page about. I do not see what the big deal is, but I understand some people do.

May I ask if you even read my post? If you did, then...great. My apologies. I, like thousands of others, did not express it well enough for you, Mohammed. Sorrymate.

It's not 3 or 4 Gods. It's just one. The same God you Muslims and our cousins the Jewish people know. Allah. Yahweh. Eloheem. The Lord, the giver of life. There is only one of him. We call him God.

His son is not literally a baby that he and his wife made. Christ* is the form God took on earth as a man. I believe the whole son concept was a way to for the Christ to express it to his brothers and sisters down here. ANd for all of us to regard God as our Father* as well. He reaches out to us, not through a prophet, but through himself.

As far as the Holy Spirit* goes, and LOVE*, well these are mystical concepts that God uses to reveal himself to us. You guys and the Jews are down with this too, I think. Same with many other faiths including animist, pagan and shamanistic folk.

*So far that is four persons. Maybe there are more. One God.

ThePlungerMan

11-05-2006, 09:03 PM

In your previous post, the scripts you posted said the God, the Creator, was sending his son to correct things. And now, you are saying that Jesus is God. How is that, is God or son of God? They are two different things.
slice bh compliment has explained it to you well, but throwing in the 4th God of love was pushing the envelope, ( a kind of fun thing to think about if you will) especially for/to a Muslim trying to learn about the Trinity.
Whoops, fun for him, not fun with you.

So withstanding accepting The Trinity, do you understand what Christians mean about it?
One God in three different forms. Like a super duper magician.
I mentioned in previous posts that whoever commits a sin and repents from that sin, then they'll be foregiven by God (Allah). And in my post, I was just advising those who mock God not to do that or they'll be punished by him. I hope you agree with this.
I understood. But you also said,
I have a small message to everyone who makes fun or joke of God (Allah).

At least in this issue, be a little serious. Ok God (Allah) is mercifull, but whoever makes fun of him will burn in hell big time and will stay in hell forever...........

So can you mock and make fun of your God, and go to heaven if you repent, or do you burn in hell forever because you can never mock or make fun of your god.?

Or maybe,,,,, do you still get go to heaven but you get punished after you get up there?

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 09:16 PM

So can you mock and make fun of your God, and go to heaven if you repent, or do you burn in hell forever because you can never mock or make fun of your god.?

If you sincerely repent from any sin, including the above, hopefully it will be accepted by God. Going to heaven, then, depends on your other deeds.

ThePlungerMan

11-05-2006, 09:20 PM

If you sincerely repent from any sin, including the above, hopefully it will be accepted by God. Going to heaven, then, depends on your other deeds.
So withstanding accepting The Trinity, do you understand what Christians mean about it?
One God in three different forms. Like a super duper magician.

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 09:24 PM

So withstanding accepting The Trinity, do you understand what Christians mean about it?
One God in three different forms. Like a super duper magician.

I understand it, but I don't believe in it. But thanks for the explanation anyway.

CanadianChic

11-05-2006, 09:34 PM

If you sincerely repent from any sin, including the above, hopefully it will be accepted by God. Going to heaven, then, depends on your other deeds.

Wow Mohmoh - this sounds a little like the Catholic confessional. Question for you... not withstanding if your God forgives you for your sins, what about the victims of them? Anything to be said about a little pennance while still of this earth?

CanadianChic

11-05-2006, 10:05 PM

Can you rephrase your questions? Victims of what? and what is "little pennance"?

Mohmoh - when someone commits a crime, be it bombing, murder, ****, theft, what have you, it is a crime. Not only in the eyes of various forms of God, but of differing laws and of the people that these crimes are being committed against. What I'm asking is do you feel that it is all right to commit these acts without any act of contrition or regret to the victims of these crimes - to simply ask your God for forgiveness? Is that enough in your eyes? A deathbed confession and "sincere" apology does not ring reliable or heartfelt in that circumstance. It's called "blowing smoke up ______'s ass".

mohmoh

11-05-2006, 11:45 PM

Mohmoh - when someone commits a crime, be it bombing, murder, ****, theft, what have you, it is a crime. Not only in the eyes of various forms of God, but of differing laws and of the people that these crimes are being committed against. What I'm asking is do you feel that it is all right to commit these acts without any act of contrition or regret to the victims of these crimes - to simply ask your God for forgiveness? Is that enough in your eyes? A deathbed confession and "sincere" apology does not ring reliable or heartfelt in that circumstance. It's called "blowing smoke up ______'s ass".

I said "sincerely repents", i.e., he/she must really hate what they did.

In Islam, if you commit any wrong doing you have to:

1- Sincerely repent from what you did.
2- Ask God for foregiveness
3- Give back the right to the person who was affected by your crime. If you stole something then you return the money to its owner

If you kill a muslim intentionally, then it is a very big sin. All you can do is repent and ask God for foregiveness, and it is not guaranteed that God would accept your repentness. Ofcourse, the law is that you should be killed by the governing body.

If you (unintentionally) kill a muslim or none-muslim from a country which is in peace with muslims, then you have to pay a ransom (I don't know its value) and free a slave.

For intentional killing of none-muslims who are in peace with muslims, I don't know what the rule is.

But for intentional killing of enemies who are at war with a muslim country, then this is not a sin.

CanadianChic

11-06-2006, 12:10 AM

Well, I thank you for answering my question. It is not my religion, so although I disagree, I will save my thoughts. For the exception of "free a slave". Can you elaborate please?

Mahboob Khan

11-06-2006, 06:04 AM

Thanks for the question. No offense taken at all. But this is precisely what I was trying to say. This one of the (many?) concepts Muslims and followers of Jesus have never really gotten on the same page about. I do not see what the big deal is, but I understand some people do.

May I ask if you even read my post? If you did, then...great. My apologies. I, like thousands of others, did not express it well enough for you, Mohammed. Sorrymate.

It's not 3 or 4 Gods. It's just one. The same God you Muslims and our cousins the Jewish people know. Allah. Yahweh. Eloheem. The Lord, the giver of life. There is only one of him. We call him God.

His son is not literally a baby that he and his wife made. Christ* is the form God took on earth as a man. I believe the whole son concept was a way to for the Christ to express it to his brothers and sisters down here. ANd for all of us to regard God as our Father* as well. He reaches out to us, not through a prophet, but through himself.

As far as the Holy Spirit* goes, and LOVE*, well these are mystical concepts that God uses to reveal himself to us. You guys and the Jews are down with this too, I think. Same with many other faiths including animist, pagan and shamanistic folk.

*So far that is four persons. Maybe there are more. One God.

I still do not get it. Maybe I am an idiot!

Without any offense intended, if Jesus is Son of God; to us it means that God had sex with an earthly woman and a child was born. But why would He bother to have sex with an earthly woman when He has access to much more beautiful "woman" in the heavens and other parts of the universe. Please explain this to me in very plain/simple words. My head is already circling!

Please do not take me wrong, I respect you and your religion. If you are fine with your religion, that's ok with us.

slice bh compliment

11-06-2006, 06:32 AM

I still do not get it. Maybe I am an idiot!

Without any offense intended, if Jesus is Son of God; to us it means that God had sex with an earthly woman and a child was born. But why would He bother to have sex with an earthly woman when He has access to much more beautiful "woman" in the heavens and other parts of the universe. Please explain this to me in very plain/simple words. My head is already circling!

Please do not take me wrong, I respect you and your religion. If you are fine with your religion, that's ok with us.

No offense taken, man. None at all. I do not think you are an idiot. This is not about idiocy, intelligence, or anything difficult like that. It is about understanding.

In response to your comment about God having a son....I'll restate.

We do not believe God went and had sex with Mary so she could bear him a child. God already has 'children'. This one was different. We simply believe that Christ is the form God took on earth as a man. I believe the whole son concept was:
1] a way for Christ to express His origins and His purpose to his brothers and sisters down here.
2] for all of us to regard God as our Father as well.

We believe God reaches out to us, not through a prophet, but through Himself.

I wish I could go around in circles at the same direction and same speed as your head is traveling, but sorry, I am not there yet.
I think we are at an impass,
and I'm an ass
if I think I can change your mind.

Only God Himself can do that. Embracing religious truths/myths/stories/elements of dogma/beliefs/ideas/explanations/propaganda/whatever people would like to call them is a matter of faith. And faith comes not from works or intellect, but through grace.

Grace be unto you, Khan.

ThePlungerMan

11-06-2006, 07:54 AM

No need to apologize, kid. Just please be funny next time, m'kayyy?

Seriously, though, who cares who knows a little or a lot about Christianity? The word 'Christian' is not even in the New Testament. Paraphrasing here - ~`They will know you by your love`~.

What if someone ridiculed your knowledge of Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism or Islam?
We're here to share ideas, learn, have a laugh or two and learn some more. Be a part of it. And tell your best friend, Rafa, to join in the fray.

Anyway, tell us more about your best bud. Is he Roman Catholic like most Spanish people? Does he go to mass a lot when he is not playing in a final? Sunday mornings or Saturday evenings? Do you go with him and his family? Is it just kind of symbolic for him or is he really deep in his faith?
When I search Bible On The Web http://www.bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp for ‘Christian’ in The ‘Entire Bible’ (king James version) I get this, "Christian " was not found in the old or new testament. When I search just the New Testament I get this,
Acts 11:26 - and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church, and taught a large company of people; and in Antioch the disciples were for the first time called Christians
Acts 26:28 - And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time you think to make me a Christian!"
1 Peter 4:16 - yet if one suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but under that name let him glorify God.
When I searched again both ways ‘again’ I got "Christian " was not found in the old or new testament.

You’re’ talking about the original Bible b4 it was translated, right?

slice bh compliment

11-06-2006, 09:42 AM

...You’re’ talking about the original Bible b4 it was translated, right?

Yes. Even different versions of the translations.

mohmoh

11-06-2006, 10:30 AM

Well, I thank you for answering my question. It is not my religion, so although I disagree, I will save my thoughts. For the exception of "free a slave". Can you elaborate please?

"Free Slave": In the past there were slaves who were completely owned by their masters. In some rules of Islam, and as a punishment to some sins it is encouraged to buy a slave from his master and make him or her free. One of the basic concepts of Islam (and probably all religions) is that all people should be treated equally. So, this slavery thing was fought by Islam 1400 years ago. In the west, it was still there until the 20th century, when African Americans were treated like slaves. So, who was ahead in this regards?Islam or the west ? I hope this will not start another fight.

kevhen

11-06-2006, 10:44 AM

Do muslims treat women as slaves not allowing them all the rights as men?

Kaptain Karl

11-06-2006, 11:24 AM

Wow! Five pages since I was last here. I will not try to address each question point-by-point. It seems to me Mahboob and mohmoh are bringing up the most questions and challenges to the question in the OP, but even you two are posting faster than I can keep up. I will attempt to briefly and clearly illuminate the major "sticking points." Here goes....

The Tora or OT was given to Moses and in that Scripture some of the "revelations" given to Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac, were also saved. I read in the OT that Moses told his nation, "do not ascribe patners onto the Lord God; verify, He does not like partners".I have searched multiple English translations -- including that of the Latin Vulgate -- and I cannot locate the verse you reference. Would you please identify the Bible verse (not the Koran, please)?

[BTW, if you want to see how multiple Bible versions translate different verses, www.crosswalk.com/ has several online translations just a click away....]

... If you are correct in your claim, then OT also predates Christianity!!!Yes. Of course Judaism predates Christianity. The distinction is, Christians hold that Judaism and Christianity claim the same LORD God. (Some Jews disagree. Some are not sure. Some think we Christians are “loopy”.)

The “sameness” is best revealed by the fact that sincere Christians believe every word of the OT (“Law and Prophets” to the Jew) and every word of the NT. The Koran directly conflicts with many principles of the OT and the NT. (Since the Koran is reported to come from Allah of Islam, the fact that the Bible and the Koran do not agree supports my major premise: The Judeo-Christian God is not the same god as the Allah of Islam.

It is against logic that God sanctioned different religions for different times for different people.I am in complete agreement with this statement, Mahboob.

It appears that the trinity is a major topic of confusion to Mahboob and mohmoh. (The truth is, many Christians have a difficult time explaining this core concept of our faith.) Christians have one God ... in three “persons” (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). In Isaiah 44:8 God says that even He does not know of any other gods!

The OT often refers to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. And in John 14 - 16 Jesus explained that this Holy Spirit would be sent by the Father at Christ's request. The Holy Spirit would teach and help the apostles, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ's behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and distinct from the Son.

A way to conceptualize the trinity which might be easier is, we Christians worship God, which is one “what” comprised of three “whos”.

Without any offense intended, if Jesus is Son of God; to us it means that God had sex with an earthly woman and a child was born.1 - Jesus the Son was not “created” by God the Father. (Do you know that one of the “names” for Jesus is “the Word?”) John 1 in the Bible tells us, In the beginning was the Word; and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were created through Him, and apart from Him not one thing was created that has been created.

2 - [This is from the other “Mahboob” thread.] God is "holy", meaning completely (not "mostly" or "almost") pure ,perfect ... both in His essence and in all His laws.

God will not have *any* impurity in heaven with Him. (Adam blew it for us, when he chose to sin in Eden. We've all been "paying for it" since. We have all inherited the flawed nature -- sin nature -- of Adam, our first ancestor....) This flaw makes us unworthy to be in God's kingdom with Him.

Throughout the Old Testament, we see where sacrifices were offered to God to atone for sins. (And there were specific criteria for how only the most "perfect" of any category of offering would come close to being considered "worthy" of being given back to God.)

The trouble with all these "perfect" sacrifices was, it merely demonstrated how wholly inadequate / temporary / short of the mark these offerings were for such a Holy God. If we were to be permanently forgiven, it would require a sacrifice of such lofty status. Goats, doves and bulls -- no matter how "perfect" -- were imperfect sacrifices. ... So God provided the only perfect sacrifice who would suffice ... His only Son (who came to this Earth willingly) born of a virgin (which meant without Adam's sin in Him) ... who lived among us and was tempted in every way we were, but He did not sin ... totally innocent ... and the only way we could be redeemed. The only way we could be allowed into God's heavenly presence ... Christ, the Messiah.

3 - He came as a baby in Mary’s womb. God, who made the universe, is certainly capable of causing Mary to become pregnant without Mary having had sex with any man. (To think otherwise, is to impose “limits” on God’s abilities, don’t you agree?) Jesus was here on Earth. (“Immanuel” actually means “God with us” in Hebrew.)

4 - While on Earth as a man, Jesus was fully man and fully God. In the garden of prior to His scourging and crucifiction, Jesus (man) prayed to God the Father. It was there that Jesus/man won the battle of temptation over Satan and submitted Himself as our perfect sacrifice.
_____________

Sir, the religion with your God is just ONE. For argument sake it could be either Judaism, Christianity, or as we claim Al-Islam. Islam makes sense because it believes in the entire process of Islamization; it believes in earlier Prophets, earlier Books, and the last Messenger and last Book Al-Qura'an.This points to a major distinction between the God of Judeo-Christianity and the Allah of Islam.
The last recorded book of the Bible is Revelation ... and the last warning God revealed to John when writing it was For I say to every man to whose ears have come the words of this prophet's book, If any man makes an addition to them, God will put on him the punishments which are in this book: And if any man takes away from the words of this book, God will take away from him his part in the tree of life and the holy town, even the things which are in this book.

In other words, Christians hold that God’s Word is completed with the conclusion of the New Testament. Since the Koran “makes addition to” the Bible, we believe the Koran NOT to be from our God.

Unfortunately, Tora and Bible ... text and the original message of the earlier prophets got deleted and/or replaced to suit the demands of the Kings and rulers of the time.This claim of yours has already been shown to be an empty assertion. (I really wish you’d stop posting it.) The accuracy of modern translations was hugely defended by the Qumran 1946 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Those manuscripts were about 1,000 years older than anything previously known. When compared to modern texts, they were found to be virtually identical. (Wow!)

... Let's not forget that all Prophets/Messengers of God came in the Middle East and that's why ought to have Middle Eastern names. You tried to Americanize even the Bible.Yes. The Bible has been translated into hundreds of languages. Of course, spellings and pronunciations will be adapted to the new language. But the meaning and the message is sustained.

With the changing times you keep on revising your Holy Books and claim that they are from God ...This is not true. I’ve corrected you many times, Mahboob. You keep posting this false information even though you’ve been shown the truth. I wish you’d stop this....

We believe that whatever got lost, thrown out of the window, deleted, replaced, and/or revised in OT/Bible, has been retained in Al-Qura'an and that's the truth nothing but the truth, but for some reasons you do not get that.See four paragraphs up. The one beginning “In other words ...”

Think, KK, think. Whatever you are saying or believing is illogical because religion with God is One. The question is which one?I hope I’ve explained Christianity so you can understand it. I appreciate your efforts to have us understand Islam as well.

I keep hearing / reading the Koran is best understood by reading it in Arabic. Since I don’t read Arabic -- and will not try to learn it, thank you -- I am “tied” to reading English translations. But I must say the translations I’ve read need their own translations, too! The English versions of the Koran seem to be written in a very ... flowery ... tongue which makes me wonder if Arabic is such a poetic language, how does business get conducted without huge confusion...?

mohmoh and Mahboob - If I’ve left you with more questions and confusion, I will try my best to address them.

- KK

nicegameyousuck

11-06-2006, 11:31 AM

Do muslims treat women as slaves not allowing them all the rights as men?

islam is fair to all. how people chose to act is another story. if you've ever been overseas and see how a muslim acts toward her man you will see they are all the same as here. we get the same headache as you would here in the states..hope this doesnt get women pissed at me for the "headache" thing..cause i dont think i or any of us guys can win an arguement with a woman :-)

watching a news story the anchor was talking to a muslim woman and he said "the quran gives lots of rights to women" or something to that affect...the reason i remember that was because it was a white anchor and not an arab or muslim one...ie..he has no reason to paint a good picture of islam cause its not his religion so he is just an outside observer...also, another story i read in the NY Times (i think thats what it was...if not, it was another major one) which was written by an american woman who saw a totally different picture of how women are treated/act over seas in a supposedly "opressed" society...she went to say she saw women do this and that and smack there hubbies in the back of the head for telling an off color joke at the table...i'm sure its not that way in the ultra strict taliban/alqueda areas but i think they go way too far with how they interpret the quran...i know i've personally seen my aunts in egypt go off on their husbands just like any gal over here would....

nicegameyousuck

11-06-2006, 11:35 AM

one thing i forgot that i was told was our belief is that the early Christians and Jews had the religion right. Jews of Moses time and the Christians that were fed to the lions...all believed in one God who shared his position with no one, man or spirit. i havent read that but i was told by a friend who knows more about it all than me...he's egyptian and hence, knows how to read the quran how it was meant to be read...in arabic...

nicegameyousuck

11-06-2006, 11:51 AM

I keep hearing / reading the Koran is best understood by reading it in Arabic. Since I don’t read Arabic -- and will not try to learn it, thank you -- I am “tied” to reading English translations. But I must say the translations I’ve read need their own translations, too! The English versions of the Koran seem to be written in a very ... flowery ... tongue which makes me wonder if Arabic is such a poetic language, how does business get conducted without huge confusion...?
- KK

i didnt realize that was stated already...i dont know if Arabic is supposed to be poetic. the reason it was chosen was because the arabic is very exact in its meaning for things(my understanding of things). i spoke with an american gentleman here who learned arabic and he confirmed that he felt the same of the language. i was also told that early people converted to islam based on the language alone of the quran. the thing that got my attention was the fact that these people of those times who's arabic was vastly better than todays saw it as something not of this world...

islam is about doing the best that you can and is very lenient(at least its supposed to be)...like when i'm fasting and if i hit the water fountain out of habit by mistake or i eat something with pork in it. as long as it was a mistake and i didnt do it knowingly then it doesnt count against me. if the best you can do is read the quran in english then its better than not reading it. i dont want to say its a good deed because i dont think that conveys what i mean but its a "good deed" to read the quran in arabic...a person who was not born in the language and learns to read arabic it reflects as a greater deed than someone born in the language and can read or someone like me who knows the spoken language and learns to read it...did that make sense how i explained it? the point is, i and others have said its best to read it in arabic for those reasons, but i hope i didnt sound like i was saying read it in arabic or dont read it all..... ?

mohmoh

11-06-2006, 12:36 PM

In other words, Christians hold that God’s Word is completed with the conclusion of the New Testament. Since the Koran “makes addition to” the Bible, we believe the Koran NOT to be from our God

- KK

KK, many thanks for your long explanation.

I can see that Christians and Jews believe that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) came up with Quran from himself.

As you may know, Prophet Mohammed was illeterate (can't read, can't write). One of the very interesting things of Quran is that it has phrases about science. Here is some of what I remember:

- There are some quotes which describe how the baby grows inside a pregnant woman and the stages of his growth inside his mother's body, from the moment it was a sperm till it is born.

- Some other quotes talk about the formation of the universe and how God (Allah) created it from a big explosion.

- Some other quotes talk about different types of clouds with some details of their formation and their functions.

- Some other quotes describe the sea waves and how they are made of layers.

- Some talk about the seas and how there are seas with salty water and others with sweet water. These sees meet at certain locations and at those locations they the salty water and sweet water don't interfere, but there is something like a wall between them.

- Some talk about iron and how iron came from the sky and resided inside the earth.

- Some talk about the earth and how it is made of layers.

- Some quotes describe how every living thing is originally made of water.

- .... and many others..

All of these scientifc facts have been discovered in the present times, and, ironically, by none-muslims.

So, can you please explain to me how can an illeterate person like Mohammed living in a tribe in the desert about 1400 years ago would be able to know these scientific facts by himself.

It only tells us that such scrientific information, which took many years by very intelligent scientists to discover, such information can only be known by the Creator of this universe who knows everything and passed this information to his last Prophet to challenge all mankind.

ThePlungerMan

11-06-2006, 01:38 PM

All of these scientifc facts have been discovered in the present times, and, ironically, by none-muslims.

So, can you please explain to me how can an illeterate person like Mohammed living in a tribe in the desert about 1400 years ago would be able to know these scientific facts by himself.

It only tells us that such scrientific information, which took many years by very intelligent scientists to discover, such information can only be known by the Creator of this universe who knows everything and passed this information to his last Prophet to challenge all mankind.
I’ll take a stab at this.
Satan is a master counterfeiter, impersonator, etc. He can present himself to others and have them think they are dealing with God, when in fact they are listening to him.
How does one know if they are being contacted by God or satan ? Best place to start,,,.
Check the scriptures to see if what you’re being told is backed by them.

Kaptain Karl

11-06-2006, 01:50 PM

I can see that Christians and Jews believe that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) came up with Quran from himself.I don't know that I'd go that far. I'm not sure I've heard Islam's version of how your Scripture was penned. (I've heard people say Mohammed's wife/sister/cousin actually put in in writing, but I don't know what Islam teaches about this.) Tell me....

We believe the Old and New Testaments to be "God-breathed." This means God, the Holy Spirit gave the concepts to (Moses, David, Ezra, Matthew, Paul, John, etc.) and they wrote -- not as if "possessed" -- but with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

As you may know, Prophet Mohammed was illeterate ...Yes.

One of the very interesting things of Quran is that it has phrases about science. Here is some of what I remember ...With due respect, I don't know why this "carries great weight" with you. I'm not disagreeing; I just don't know why it is significant to you.

So, can you please explain to me how can an illeterate person like Mohammed living in a tribe in the desert about 1400 years ago would be able to know these scientific facts by himself.Since you asked, it seems possible to me Satan caused Mohammed to write it. (Some of many names for Satan are "Deceiver" and "Father of lies.") How do we know Satan didn't "trick" Mohammed?

(I do not write this to inflame or ridicule. You asked me a question. I offered one possible answer.)

- KK

mohmoh

11-06-2006, 02:24 PM

I don't know that I'd go that far. I'm not sure I've heard Islam's version of how your Scripture was penned. (I've heard people say Mohammed's wife/sister/cousin actually put in in writing, but I don't know what Islam teaches about this.) Tell me....

God (Allah) sent Angel Gibrael to Mohammed and told him the Quran verses over a period of 23 years. And Mohammed used to tell his companions every time he got a new verse. And after the Prophet's death, his companions collected all those verses in one book which we have now, without any change since then.

With due respect, I don't know why this "carries great weight" with you. I'm not disagreeing; I just don't know why it is significant to you.

It carries a great deal, because it is a proof that the Quran could not be from a human being living in the 7th century, but from God (Allah) who nows all the secrets of the universe.

Since you asked, it seems possible to me Satan caused Mohammed to write it. (Some of many names for Satan are "Deceiver" and "Father of lies.") How do we know Satan didn't "trick" Mohammed?

To 1.2 Billion people living on earth it is more possible (for sure) that this Quran, with this scientific miracle, is from God (Allah) and not from a Satan.

Quran is full of verses which condemn satan and tells humans to consider the satan as an enemy. It always warns that satan is an evil. If it is, as you think, from satan, then how could he warn humans of him and ask humans to be his enemies. He would rather tell human that satan is a good creature and he is their friend and would lead them to heaven.

And does Satan know all the secrets of the universe?

Kaptain Karl

11-06-2006, 03:06 PM

... And after the Prophet's death, his companions collected all those verses in one book which we have now, without any change since then.Thank you. (I'd heard the first part, but never knew what Islamic tradition said about how the Koran actually got put down in writing.)

Who were these "companions"? Do you know their names ... their occupations ... their reasons for writing down what they remember Mohammed telling them? (We Christians know all this about (most of) the writers of the different books of the Bible.)

It carries a great deal, because it is a proof that the Quran could not be from a human being living in the 7th century ..."So far, so good." But Satan isn't a human being either....

To 1.2 Billion people living on earth ... If numbers are considered significant, we should all aspire to be cockroaches, huh? (In other words, I'm not swayed by the numbers. In fact, I like McAlvany's adage: "The majority is always wrong.")

... If it is, as you think, from satan, then how could he warn humans of him and ask humans to be his enemies. He would rather tell human that satan is a good creature and he is their friend and would lead them to heaven.Because Satan is the craftiest, most cunning liar around. He's one very sneaky Evil One. Other names for him are: Accuser, Adversary, god of this world, Murderer.... Surely he's cunning enough to trick people by pretending to be "against himself."

And does Satan know all the secrets of the universe?No. He is not all-knowing.

- KK

nicegameyousuck

11-06-2006, 03:54 PM

Mahboob Khan

11-06-2006, 06:24 PM

Very good post. In very effective way you described the undescribable! In the outset, does Judaism accept the concept of Trinity (One God in three persons)?

God is one but in three persons! Nicely put, but to us this will mean that He has partners! Ascribing partners to Allah is the greatest sin in Islam! This is the only sin which will not be forgiven, therefore, we strongly REJECT the concept of trinity!

In Qura'an there is a mention of Rooh ul Qudus (the holy spirit). The holy spirit of God or Gabriel?:

Surat at-Tahrim: 12: "(Allah has made an example for those who believe) Maryam, the daughter of Imran, who guarded her chastity - We breathed Our Spirit into her and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Book and was one of the obedient".

From the above verse, one can conclude that it's Allah's spirit and that's why it is holy.

Yes, we know that Isa did not have a father. Meryam did not have a sex with any man. She WAS virgin (I guess, she WAS married to someone called Yousaf but that person had not touched her because he had realized that his wife was an extraordinary person, that's why he abstained from her). I may be wrong but I read this somewhere. In Qura'an there is no mention that she was married.. ever!

Adam did not have a father and mother. He was created from clay and Allah said, "Be! and he was". In fact, once his body structure was made from clay, Allah inserted His spirit into him (His holy spirit) and he got his life. In a way we also have this "holy spirit" within us. Without this we die.

Eve did not have a mother. She was created from the ribs of Adam.

Abraham and Sara were infertile when Isaac was given.

Zakaria was old/unable to have sex, and his wife was barren when Yahya (John) was given to him.

Meryam did not have any sex with any man and Isa was given that's why he is like Adam who did not have a father and mother.

I think I will be happy if you should not take English names of Jesus Christ and Mary. Their actual/original names are Meryam and Isa. According to D-Man the names mentioned in Greek text are similar to Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic names. He confirmed Meryam (Miriam) and Isa as the names of Mary and Jesus.

Yes, the original Qura'an in Arabic is quite unique. At the time of its revelation and even now, it created a revoltuion in the Arab world because such an Arabic was not spoken and/or written. Even the best speakers/writers of the Messenger's time, and even today, even the Arabic Christians in the world, agree that this "speech" cannot be from a man; it has to be from a supernatural thing. And remember as the Qura'an was revealed the majority of converts or reverts were from Christianity and Judaism -- in fact those who were master of the Arabic language --. Hazrat Omer, the second Caliph, was a non-believer. He used to beat his sisters as to why she got converted to Islam. Once as he was entering his house, he heard his sister recite Qur'an; Omer hesitated, listened to few verses whilst outside the door; and then asked his sister to recite more verses. At this his eyes were filled with tears and said, "By God, these words are not from a man". He went to his nephew Muhammad, and embraced Islam. Let's not forget that only 500 years had elapsed between the time of Isa and Muhammad. Even the OT/NT were reasonably intact during the era of Muhammad, and during that time the place was full of OT/NT scholars. In fact, these scholars of OT/NT were first to convert once they heard the Arabic Qura'an. In modern times, Englishman Pickthal is an example. You might know that Pickthal was a Christian scholar based in Great Britain. In a bid to understand Qura'an and Islam he learned old/classic Arabic language, became Arabic teacher in Al-Azhar, and later translated Qura'an. After translation he embraced Islam, and said, "Qura'an cannot be translated".

If you believe in any miracle then Arabic Qura'an is the greatest miracle of all times. Every day, we find new diamonds in Qura'an. Go to the Arab world and they will tell you, "Even if we read Qura'an 1000 times we find it fresh and new". Unfortunately, English translations do not convey the actual meanings and spirit of Qura'an.

Our view is that since the original OT/NT texts are not available or changed in parts, the OT/NT do not describe Meryam and Isa as they were. Al-Qura'an truly and fully describe Meryam and her son, Isa as they were -- not more not less --.

And if I am right in my claim, Isa will be my Savior (he will recommend my case to Allah). If I am wrong about him, I will go to hell and stay there .. for ever!

If you would like me, I will be glad to fully describe Meryam and Isa as they are in Qura'an. If you can find, there is a small booklet, "Jesus will Return" written by a Muslim Scholar Harun Yahya. This booklet has put together all the verses relating to Meryam and Isa. I will be glad to load them here if you want me to do so! The booklet I referred to is from Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd. Wynne Road, London SW9 OBB. Price: L3.95.

Your brother, Mahboob Khan.

mohmoh

11-06-2006, 06:53 PM

i think to say that satan dictated the quran could easily have been said that he dictated the bible as well. if he is capable of doing it once why not other times is what i mean.

i've heard the argument that the bible prophesized the coming of Mohamed in the OT (i think it was the OT...moses said another like me would come with the message) that other being mohamed. i forget what it means but its a derivation of ahmed which means something surrendered to God or something like servant of God or something like that...not Mohamed by name but refering to him in a manner of what his name means. the reason i think the quran couldnt come from satan is because it has so many similarities to the bible and teaches the same things on how to live and its inclusive of all other religions...only difference is it puts Jesus as a prophet like the others that came with the message....my dad recently told me at his age he recently ponder the whole religion thing and if its true or what...then he saw on the discovery channel a show on creation of the earth and the scientists description of how the world was formed could have been read out of the quran which was written centuries before modern science...

Yes, if satan did this with Mohammed, then you may have the same argument with the others. But muslims would never associate satan with the prophets.

Also, Quran has challenged all mankind to comeup with a single surah similar to that from the Quran. And the compelling scientific evidence which I mentioned in my previous post challenges all those who pretend that Quran was written by Prophet Mohammed.

Actually, many scientists converted to Islam after knowing that what they discovered have been noted in Quran hundreds of years ago.

ThePlungerMan

11-06-2006, 07:28 PM

....the reason i think the quran couldnt come from satan is because it has so many similarities to the bible and teaches the same things on how to live and its inclusive of all other religions...only difference is it puts Jesus as a prophet like the others that came with the message...

Again: The devil is a master counterfeiter, impersonator, etc……..
……Check the scriptures to see if what you’re being told is backed by them.

Satan’s goal is to get you to reject The Lord, AKA Jesus Christ, It’s all about Jesus. Again, pay attention to these two words……. master counterfeiter.

Now, knowing that, you have to change your opinion about why you think Satan didn’t have anything to do with the Quran.

Kaptain Karl

11-06-2006, 09:01 PM

i think to say that satan dictated the quran could easily have been said that he dictated the bible as well. if he is capable of doing it once why not other times is what i mean.A fair question.... My answer is to see how the historical and archeological discoveries have repeatedly confirmed so many of the "stories" of the Bible.

(I understand several scholars are pretty sure the location of Noah's ark has been pinpointed ... but the Arab nation in control of the area refuses to allow any exploration / excavation. Hmmm. What could they be afraid of...?)

... the reason i think the quran couldnt come from satan is because it has so many similarities to the bible and teaches the same things on how to live and its inclusive of all other religionsYou must not know much of the Bible. You have not described it accurately at all. If you are new to the Bible, I'd recommend you start with a paraphrase like the J B Phillips version; not the King James. [Some of my Christian brothers are gasping....] The language of the King James can be ... cumbersome.

- KK

Kaptain Karl

11-06-2006, 09:29 PM

Very good post. In very effective way you described the undescribable!Thank you, Mahboob.

In the outset, does Judaism accept the concept of Trinity (One God in three persons)?No. Many Jewish scholars comprehend the trinity; they just don't believe Jesus is the Messiah ... (yet).

God is one but in three persons! Nicely put, but to us this will mean that He has partners!I would not agree that this is the same concept.

Ascribing partners to Allah is the greatest sin in Islam! This is the only sin which will not be forgiven, therefore, we strongly REJECT the concept of trinity!Oh, I've come to clearly understand *that*.

In Qura'an there is a mention of Rooh ul Qudus (the holy spirit). ... From the above verse, one can conclude that it's Allah's spirit and that's why it is holy.In so many places our Scriptures are quite similar....

Meryam did not have a sex with any man. She WAS virgin (I guess, she WAS married to someone called Yousaf but that person had not touched her because he had realized that his wife was an extraordinary person, that's why he abstained from her). I may be wrong but I read this somewhere.Christian scholars are not in 100% agreement on this, but many DO agree. (I agree with this too.)

In Qura'an there is no mention that she was married.. ever!The Bible does indicate she married Joseph ... and had more children by him.

I think I will be happy if you should not take English names of Jesus Christ and Mary. Their actual/original names are Meryam and Isa. According to D-Man the names mentioned in Greek text are similar to Hebrew/Aramaic/Arabic names. He confirmed Meryam (Miriam) and Isa as the names of Mary and Jesus.D-man was correct. But since English is my language, I'm not comfortable suddenly switching to the Hebrew names. (I know to whom my Jewish and Muslim friends are referring; it's not that confusing. It's just that "Y'shua" or "Isa" doesn't slip off my tongue very readily. I'll stick with their names in English, thanks.)

And remember as the Qura'an was revealed the majority of converts or reverts were from Christianity and Judaism ...Yes. The growth-by-conquest of Islam from Medina is well-documented. Of course the coverts would be Christian or Jewish. (What else was there in that region and time...?)

Unfortunately, English translations do not convey the actual meanings and spirit of Qura'an.I knew this *had* to be the case. I read the translation you recommend. It was ... not easy to follow.

Our view is that since the original OT/NT texts are not available or changed in parts, the OT/NT do not describe Meryam and Isa as they were. Al-Qura'an truly and fully describe Meryam and her son, Isa as they were -- not more not less --.Obviously, we do not agree on (either of) these points.

And if I am right in my claim, Isa will be my Savior (he will recommend my case to Allah). If I am wrong about him, I will go to hell and stay there .. for ever!That sums it up pretty well....

If you would like me, I will be glad to fully describe Meryam and Isa as they are in Qura'an. If you can find, there is a small booklet, "Jesus will Return" written by a Muslim Scholar Harun Yahya. This booklet has put together all the verses relating to Meryam and Isa. I will be glad to load them here if you want me to do so! The booklet I referred to is from Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd. Wynne Road, London SW9 OBB. Price: L3.95.How's this? If you'll put up just a bit -- say, six or fewer pages -- to start with. I'll agree to read them. If I cannot follow it ... or find it really antagonistic to what I believe ... I'll not ask you for more. If I CAN follow it and/or read it without grinding my teeth at the problems I have with it ... I'll ask for more. Is that fair...?

Mahboob, I appreciate your civil discourse. I have learned more about Islam and its followers from you. Thank you.

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-07-2006, 05:41 AM

Yes, if satan did this with Mohammed, then you may have the same argument with the others. But muslims would never associate satan with the prophets.

Also, Quran has challenged all mankind to comeup with a single surah similar to that from the Quran. And the compelling scientific evidence which I mentioned in my previous post challenges all those who pretend that Quran was written by Prophet Mohammed.

Actually, many scientists converted to Islam after knowing that what they discovered have been noted in Quran hundreds of years ago.

Exactly.

Mahboob Khan

11-07-2006, 06:00 AM

Thank you, Mahboob.

No. Many Jewish scholars comprehend the trinity; they just don't believe Jesus is the Messiah ... (yet).

I would not agree that this is the same concept.

Oh, I've come to clearly understand *that*.

In so many places our Scriptures are quite similar....

Christian scholars are not in 100% agreement on this, but many DO agree. (I agree with this too.)

The Bible does indicate she married Joseph ... and had more children by him.

D-man was correct. But since English is my language, I'm not comfortable suddenly switching to the Hebrew names. (I know to whom my Jewish and Muslim friends are referring; it's not that confusing. It's just that "Y'shua" or "Isa" doesn't slip off my tongue very readily. I'll stick with their names in English, thanks.)

Yes. The growth-by-conquest of Islam from Medina is well-documented. Of course the coverts would be Christian or Jewish. (What else was there in that region and time...?)

I knew this *had* to be the case. I read the translation you recommend. It was ... not easy to follow.

Obviously, we do not agree on (either of) these points.

That sums it up pretty well....

How's this? If you'll put up just a bit -- say, six or fewer pages -- to start with. I'll agree to read them. If I cannot follow it ... or find it really antagonistic to what I believe ... I'll not ask you for more. If I CAN follow it and/or read it without grinding my teeth at the problems I have with it ... I'll ask for more. Is that fair...?

Mahboob, I appreciate your civil discourse. I have learned more about Islam and its followers from you. Thank you.

- KK

KK, you are a thorough gentleman. You have been quite respectful to Allah, His Qura'an and His Islam. And if He likes it, He will send you to paradize because in a larger picture why should He care about any religion? He does not need anything. We need everything including religion.

OK, I will create a separate thread under "Odds and Ends" and it will be titled, "Jesus (Isa) son of Meryam (Mary) in the Qura'an". I will try to be as nice as possible afterall Isa son of Meryam is also our savior. I think he and his mother, Meryam, have received more praise, respect, and dignity, than any other Prophet. Muhammad always considered him as his brother!

I am very tired today. When I am fresh, I will start posting.

slice bh compliment

11-07-2006, 06:21 AM

KK, you are a thorough gentleman. You have been quite respectful to Allah, His Qura'an and His Islam. And if He likes it, He will send you to paradize because in a larger picture why should He care about any religion? He does not need anything. We need everything including religion.

OK, I will create a separate thread under "Odds and Ends" and it will be titled, "Jesus (Isa) son of Meryam (Mary) in the Qura'an". I will try to be as nice as possible afterall Isa son of Meryam is also our savior. I think he and his mother, Meryam, have received more praise, respect, and dignity, than any other Prophet. Muhammad always considered him as his brother!

I am very tired today. When I am fresh, I will start posting.

I also appreciate your views, Mr. Khan.
Good points KK.
Peace of Christ to all.

But, unlike you, Kap'n, I'm cool with the whole Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek name thing. Hebrew and Aramaic speak for themselves, and Greek was spoken by many, many Jewish people throughout the Mediterranean 'world' in Biblical times. I am all for going back to their 'real' names. Iosus, Jesu, Yeshua, Maria, Miriam, Merry'yam, Josip, Yusuf, Youssef, etc.

Say it loud: "Yeshua, Meryam & Yousuf!"
Nice ring to it.

Maybe I'm especially open to the 'real' names right after watching the two recent DVDs on Christ (The Passion of the Christ and the Gospel of John). The Gospel of John film was veddy, veddy English (in a modern sense), but still totally true to the Word. And word for word from the Gospel of John. It's the NSV or the NIV, I think....not the King James or the New King James, but still just awesome.

Thanks, gentlemen.

nicegameyousuck

11-07-2006, 06:58 AM

...The Lord, AKA Jesus Christ, It’s all about Jesus.

i kinda question why we are talking back and forth on this...to me the jewish, muslim and christian God are all referring to the same Creator...the God of moses, abraham, noah, jesus and mohamed (pbut)...the only difference in these religions is their view of Jesus. As i see it, the bible says "i am a vain and jealous God" (correct me if i am wrong) meaning god is the only one worthy of worship and you shall have no other things to worship....i doubt God has any humanlike traits like this but it was mearly stated in the Bible in a way that people could understand it...worshiping Jesus instead of God is the issue, but then again you believe you are worshiping God because jesus=god but i personally feel when someone says Priase Jesus it should be Praise God but you believe you're still worshiping God so i would guess that still counts...i talked to a Jehovas Witness friend of mine and he said its not the belief that Jesus IS God but some other relationship ..ie...son of god?....bottom line is its all God's will in the end where you go when you die and i find it hard to believe that the good Christian/Catholic/JW people i know who basically live there life as i do as a muslim will get singled out because maybe they arent worshiping an Idol but worshiping God in their view of him...

on a side note, i always found it interesting that you will never see a likeness/pic of mohamed so as to avoid that likeness becomming an object of worship...also, he was born and died in mecca but was buried in medina so it could never be misunderstood since we pray toward mecca that it was too him and not God...(correct me if i'm wrong guys)

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 08:12 AM

.. meaning god is the only one worthy of worship and you shall have no other things to worship....i doubt God has any humanlike traits like this but it was mearly stated in the Bible in a way that people could understand it...worshiping Jesus instead of God is the issue, but then again you believe you are worshiping God because jesus=god but i personally feel when someone says Priase Jesus it should be Praise God but you believe you're still worshiping God so i would guess that still counts...
Hey nicegameyousuck. I like that name it’s funny.
You seem to be going a hundred and ten miles an hour.
This is my reply. Being a believer of the Bible it’s all that needs to be said IMHO. But if you want more ask. Thanks.
John: 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me. 7 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him

[QUOTE=nicegameyousuck] on a side note, i always found it interesting that you will never see a likeness/pic of mohamed so as to avoid that likeness becomming an object of worship.../QUOTE]
In a non denominational church like the one I go to, there are no likeness of Jesus etc, for the reasons you specified.

nicegameyousuck

11-07-2006, 09:26 AM

Hey nicegameyousuck. I like that name it’s funny.

in case you're wondering its from a nike agassi commercial back in the late 90s that featured "virtual andre". a kid in the mall put on a VR headset and played tennis with a virtual reality andre...andre was the chair ump as well :-) at the end it flashed the silver nike logo on a black screen and andre says "nice game. you suck" while the kid is shaking hands with the virtual player

You seem to be going a hundred and ten miles an hour.

story of my life! thats how my engineer brain works...you're just lucky i gave you the short/clear version ;-)

i just think all of it can be interpreted so many ways and the Bible itself is just a translation to english that we are reading...and i just heard from a friend who grew up christian that books have been left out and/or changed to suit the needs of the ruler in that time...as with the king james version...and i have never heard of such things with 'versions' of the quran and the fact that you really shouldnt go by the english version of the quran cause arbic is more definitive language with less ambiguity...i find so hard sometimes to translate something from arabic to english cause it just doesnt convey the meaning in the translation to english...but the english quran and bible are all i can read so i just do my best with it...

nicegameyousuck

11-07-2006, 09:28 AM

(I understand several scholars are pretty sure the location of Noah's ark has been pinpointed ... but the Arab nation in control of the area refuses to allow any exploration / excavation. Hmmm. What could they be afraid of...?)

what do you think they are afraid of? proof that the ark existed or something else? thanks

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 09:57 AM

in case you're wondering its from a nike agassi commercial back in the late 90s that featured "virtual andre". a kid in the mall put on a VR headset and played tennis with a virtual reality andre...andre was the chair ump as well :-) at the end it flashed the silver nike logo on a black screen and andre says "nice game. you suck" while the kid is shaking hands with the virtual player If I knew Nike was involved with that I wouldn’t have commented. But thanks.
I just think all of it can be interpreted so many ways and the Bible itself is just a translation to english that we are reading...
Nothing is lost in translation regarding this scripture, John: 14-6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me……. It’s like a,,, what does 2 plus 2 equal,,,,, kind of verse. That (using the lost in translation ticket) IMHO is a ‘cop out’ way to ignore what is being taught in the Bible
and i just heard from a friend who grew up christian that books have been left out and/or changed to suit the needs of the ruler in that time...
I believe God gave us a manual to live by, that being The Bible, and all he wanted in it for us to read (learn) was given to us in the OT/NT by him.

nicegameyousuck

11-07-2006, 10:23 AM

If I knew Nike was involved with that I wouldn’t have commented. But thanks.

Nothing is lost in translation regarding this scripture, John: 14-6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me……. It’s like a,,, what does 2 plus 2 equal,,,,, kind of verse. That (using the lost in translation ticket) IMHO is a ‘cop out’ way to ignore what is being taught in the Bible

whats wrong with nike?

i dont feel it as a 'cop out' ...2+2 equals 4 based on the INTERPRETATION of the english TRANSLATION that someone said it said based on the original...you dont know what the original bible said because it wasnt written in english not to mention i have NO idea where to begin looking to find the original text as it was written...and i dont think it was you, maybe KK, that said not to go by the king james version(why? was the translation not good?) and my christian friend just filled me in on the KJV that it was translated by king james (duh on my part for not knowing that already since thats the version i studied) and thats where it came from...

i guess what i'm saying is (forgive me for going 100mph again to get to this point) when you read that, nothing is lost and 2+2=4 but thats not how i meant 'translation'(did you think i meant "interpretation" of that verse not equaling 4?)...i meant it from the original text in its original language being translated by whoever was in power in that time or whoever decided to translate it at the time..i know from personal experience reading the quran...i've seen one english translation say this and the other leave that out but the arabic quran always says "iyak inaoub wi iyak inastayin" ...and i always say it that way when i pray in arabic....

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 10:47 AM

whats wrong with nike?
Hey fastkid, har har.
Everything. I haven’t bought Nike since they signed Dion Sanders 20 years or so ago. Ridiculous endorsements paid to athletes, that being passed on to consumers, kids bugging their parents they need 100 dollar shoe to fit in and be like the rest, so as to be (cool). So I buy Addis and Kswiss. (same thing)((I’m a hypocrite)) lesser of two evils IMHO
i don’t feel it as a 'cop out' ...2+2 equals 4 based on the INTERPRETATION of the english TRANSLATION that someone said it said based on the original...you dont know what the original bible said because it wasnt written in english not to mention i have NO idea where to begin looking to find the original text as it was written...and i dont think it was you, maybe KK, that said not to go by the king james version(why? was the translation not good?) and my christian friend just filled me in on the KJV that it was translated by king james (duh on my part for not knowing that already since thats the version i studied) and thats where it came from...
The point being is to say you hold off judgment as it pertains to a scripture, due to Translation/ interpretation is IMHO a cop out. Say yes or no,, don’t say well it could mean something else cause it was translated etc,,,
i guess what i'm saying is (forgive me for going 100mph again to get to this point) when you read that, nothing is lost and 2+2=4 but thats not how i meant 'translation'(did you think i meant "interpretation" of that verse not equaling 4?)...i meant it from the original text in its original language being translated by whoever was in power in that time or whoever decided to translate it at the time..i know from personal experience reading the quran...i've seen one english translation say this and the other leave that out but the arabic quran always says "iyak inaoub wi iyak inastayin" ...and i always say it that way when i pray in arabic....
There are tons of scripture in The Bible that add up to the same in any language.

slice bh compliment

11-07-2006, 10:52 AM

You are "technically" correct, that I didn't answer the question directly. BUT ... the confirming archeological discoveries do give those who think the Bible is mythological problems. (It supports the truth of the whole when more and more of its parts are found to be accurately stated.)

My point wasn't to disparage the KJV. It's "voice" has a metre which is cumbersome for newcomers ... and it uses some archaic words which confuse, rather than clarify. The KJV is a perfectly fine translation for study. I just think novices are better served with the paraphrase versions I recommended.

- KK

The Bible is the Word. No matter the translation. This may just be me, but don't certain passages in the KJV absolutely burst with truth, ultimate emphasis and drama?
When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead.....read that in the casual, hip version. Then re-read it in the King James. The message is there, but man, you're floored by the KJV. Seriously, go check it out.

nicegameyousuck

11-07-2006, 10:58 AM

The point being is to say you hold off judgment as it pertains to a scripture, due to Translation/ interpretation is IMHO a cop out. Say yes or no,, don’t say well it could mean something else cause it was translated etc,,,

ok..i see your point on the yes/no thing. that makes sense now what you said.

my point ended up being more that you dont know that that verse even existed in the Bible before someone came out with the english version because you are going by what someone is telling you it said...

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 11:22 AM

slice bh compliment

11-07-2006, 11:56 AM

Guys,

It is a very simple formula:

- Jews believe in Moses, but don't believe in Jesus or Mohammed (PBUT).
- Christians believe in Moses and Jesus, but don't believe in Mohammed (PBUT).
- Moslems believe in all of them (PBUT).

So who is more guaranteed to go to heaven?

PBUT. Is that Peace Be Upon Thee?

Anyway, nice logic. I did not know it was that simple.
Why dont you float that out there and see how many converts you get;).

Seriously, man, that is like arguing that my prophet is better than your prophet. My string/shoe/stick/shirt is better than yours.

I'm sure you'd love it if a Christian said this:
Moses lived and died.
Muhammed lived and died.
Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead.
Whose followers are going to see salvation and eternal life?

Come on, man.

Live in the moment. For some, it's the prophet you were raised to follow, so they are loyal to that dogma. For others it is nothing, so they do what is easy. Still others are drawn by God. This is why I respect a convert of any kind.

I've got to ask you Mohammed, are you trying to justify or show off to others your relationship with your God and your prophet. Trying to gain some converts?

What do you think of people who come up with cute little comparison tools for their diety/prophet/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Pet Rock et al?

maleyoyo

11-07-2006, 04:17 PM

KK, many thanks for your long explanation.

I can see that Christians and Jews believe that Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) came up with Quran from himself.

As you may know, Prophet Mohammed was illeterate (can't read, can't write). One of the very interesting things of Quran is that it has phrases about science. Here is some of what I remember:

- There are some quotes which describe how the baby grows inside a pregnant woman and the stages of his growth inside his mother's body, from the moment it was a sperm till it is born.

- Some other quotes talk about the formation of the universe and how God (Allah) created it from a big explosion.

- Some other quotes talk about different types of clouds with some details of their formation and their functions.

- Some other quotes describe the sea waves and how they are made of layers.

- Some talk about the seas and how there are seas with salty water and others with sweet water. These sees meet at certain locations and at those locations they the salty water and sweet water don't interfere, but there is something like a wall between them.

- Some talk about iron and how iron came from the sky and resided inside the earth.

- Some talk about the earth and how it is made of layers.

- Some quotes describe how every living thing is originally made of water.

- .... and many others..

All of these scientifc facts have been discovered in the present times, and, ironically, by none-muslims.

So, can you please explain to me how can an illeterate person like Mohammed living in a tribe in the desert about 1400 years ago would be able to know these scientific facts by himself.

It only tells us that such scrientific information, which took many years by very intelligent scientists to discover, such information can only be known by the Creator of this universe who knows everything and passed this information to his last Prophet to challenge all mankind.

Hi moh-moh;
I'm very interested in this piece of info you provided here. Would you kindly provide me the source of this info. The original wording if possible (in English of course).
Thanks

Mahboob Khan

11-07-2006, 04:51 PM

PBUT. Is that Peace Be Upon Thee?

Anyway, nice logic. I did not know it was that simple.
Why dont you float that out there and see how many converts you get;).

Seriously, man, that is like arguing that my prophet is better than your prophet. My string/shoe/stick/shirt is better than yours.

I'm sure you'd love it if a Christian said this:
Moses lived and died.
Muhammed lived and died.
Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead.
Whose followers are going to see salvation and eternal life?

Come on, man.

Live in the moment. For some, it's the prophet you were raised to follow, so they are loyal to that dogma. For others it is nothing, so they do what is easy. Still others are drawn by God. This is why I respect a convert of any kind.

I've got to ask you Mohammed, are you trying to justify or show off to others your relationship with your God and your prophet. Trying to gain some converts?

What do you think of people who come up with cute little comparison tools for their diety/prophet/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Pet Rock et al?

Islam never said that Muhammad was superior than Isa son of Meryam (Jesus son of Mary). In fact Qur'an advises us that we should believe in all the previous prophets, previous scriptures, and the last Messenger of Allah, and His last Book Al-Qura'an, and that we do not differentiate between prophets. Sir, we believe in the entire process NOT just the start, NOT just the Middle, NOT just the end, .. but the entire process because religion with God is ONE; not three, not two, BUT ONE. We believe that this ONE religion is Al-Islam and we do not expect you to agree to this! We respect your disagreement.

Mohmoh: Keep it up, brother! You are like a fresh breeze! I like your knowledge on Islam, and appreciate your guts to be out here and post your thoughts. No, we are not trying to convert or revert anybody. We had enough Muslims already. We just want our Christian and Jewish cousins that we are your cousins, and in many ways we share your prophets, and whenever and wherever there have been no changes to your OT/NT our Al-Qura'an supports it, and wherever there is a changed text in the Bible, Qura'an just puts the story right for you so that in the Day of Judgment you will not have this argument that you did not know!

Kaptain Karl

11-07-2006, 05:33 PM

This may just be me, but don't certain passages in the KJV absolutely burst with truth, ultimate emphasis and drama?It's just you.

When Jesus rose Lazarus from the dead.....read that in the casual, hip version. Then re-read it in the King James. The message is there, but man, you're floored by the KJV. Seriously, go check it out.Nah! The KJV is ... clumsy.

"Casual hip???" I recommended "The Message" because many Bible scholars who I respect, think it's excellent for newcomers. (I personally do not like it.) But the J.B. Phillips is, IMO, an excellent version.
_____________

...the biggest thing in my mind now after talkin to my christian friend at lunch was that he told me books were changed and left out and things like that to suit the needs of the author/translator at the time.Aaargh!!! I've addressed this multiple times in the last weeks. (Maybe not in this thread, though.) You're friend is "whacked". His "books were changed" story is a myth.

With all respect to your Christian friend, he shouldn't be speaking about that which he does not know....

- KK

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 07:22 PM

PBUT. Is that Peace Be Upon Thee?

Anyway, nice logic. I did not know it was that simple.
Why dont you float that out there and see how many converts you get;).

Seriously, man, that is like arguing that my prophet is better than your prophet. My string/shoe/stick/shirt is better than yours.

I'm sure you'd love it if a Christian said this:
Moses lived and died.
Muhammed lived and died.
Jesus lived, died and rose from the dead.
Whose followers are going to see salvation and eternal life?

Come on, man.

Live in the moment. For some, it's the prophet you were raised to follow, so they are loyal to that dogma. For others it is nothing, so they do what is easy. Still others are drawn by God. This is why I respect a convert of any kind.

I've got to ask you Mohammed, are you trying to justify or show off to others your relationship with your God and your prophet. Trying to gain some converts?

What do you think of people who come up with cute little comparison tools for their diety/prophet/Flying Spaghetti Monster/Pet Rock et al?

- PBUT = Peace Be Upon Them.

- I appreciate you're being quiet in putting your opinions.

- I'm not trying to convert any one, sir. As everyone here, I'm typing down what I believe in hoping to explain some wrong concepts about Islam. If you like it, then this is cool. If you don't like it, then this will not upset me.

- In my last post, I tried to simplify things and not go into much details. (as they say the devil is in details). I meant that if you happen to believe in all religions and all prophets then you'll be in a more peace of mind.

-As per your request, here are some links which talks about some people who converted to Islam (I'm not trying to convert you or any one, but you've asked for it)

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/

http://www.islamfortoday.com/converts_2.htm

There are many similar sites in the internet. Just search if you want.

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 07:33 PM

Hi moh-moh;
I'm very interested in this piece of info you provided here. Would you kindly provide me the source of this info. The original wording if possible (in English of course).
Thanks

Appreciate your interest.

Here is a link to the website of the Eygptian scientist in Geology, Zagloul Al-Najjar, a very well know Geologist. In this website you'll find many scientific discoveries which are clearly mentioned in Quran along with the Quranic quotes explained in very clear details.

http://www.elnaggarzr.com/Test_fre/English/index_E.asp

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 08:34 PM

-
- In my last post, I tried to simplify things and not go into much details. (as they say the devil is in details). I meant that if you happen to believe in all religions and all prophets then you'll be in a more peace of mind. As per your request, here are some links which talks about some people who converted to Islam (I'm not trying to convert you or any one, but you've asked for it)
OKAY. But with all due respect, The Bible says,
Matthew 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Luke 6:26 - "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.
2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So to get a feel for what I think about your nonstop campaign for Islam insert Muhammad in where all these verses say ‘false prophets’ and you will know what I think of Islam.

You and your friend here has made it most clear where you stand. We are very up on, (to this point) the ABC’s of Islam as well as the ABC’s of Christianity.

In this and the other threads concerning Islam and Christianity it is obvious to anyone reading the thread you are probably (but maybe) trying to convert others to Islam.

You are taking advantage of kind, well meaning Christians to talk Islam. You ignore fantastic rebuttals to some claims you and your friend made, but continue to go on with a long dialogue soon after about Islam. (That is my humble Opinion)
If you don’t care, (want to convert others to Islam) why do you act like you do?
Again when you go on and on and on and on about Islam you are rejecting my Lord Jesus Christ, you are confusing others as to what I believe is The Real God. By going on and on and on you are maybe getting in the way of someone who might accept Jesus but wont cause you have confused them. So if you you’re not trying to convert, why don’t you back off with so much Islam and let this thread die. Cause I care about souls,,, as you said in so many words or your friends,, that no more Muslims are needed, as you have enough.

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 08:34 PM

ok..i see your point on the yes/no thing. that makes sense now what you said.

my point ended up being more that you dont know that that verse even existed in the Bible before someone came out with the english version because you are going by what someone is telling you it said...
I believe The Bible is God's spoken Word.

slice bh compliment

11-07-2006, 08:37 PM

what makes you so sure though? another gentleman on this board said the same thing and he actually layed it out in quite detail...i had no idea it was like that...the fact that other parts of christianity have more books in their bible than some and the catholics have a different one? this is all per the other gentlemans statement..i didnt realize it was quite like that...

I actually did not mean that, courtrage. I was pointing out that while there are subtle differences in inclusion of certain books, the message remains. And that we all are brothers and sisters under the same God.

To reiterate, "...Styles may vary, some books have this and others have that. I have not noticed one bit of difference in the love, the grace, the mercy, the wisdom, the peace, the conviction or the spirit behind any of the Word...in any form. The message is the message.

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 09:12 PM

OKAY. But with all due respect, The Bible says,
Matthew 7:15 - "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 24:11 - And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
Luke 6:26 - "Woe to you, when all men speak well of you, for so their fathers did to the false prophets.
2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

So to get a feel for what I think about your nonstop campaign for Islam insert Muhammad in where all these verses say ‘false prophets’ and you will know what I think of Islam.

You and your friend here has made it most clear where you stand. We are very up on, (to this point) the ABC’s of Islam as well as the ABC’s of Christianity.

In this and the other threads concerning Islam and Christianity it is obvious to anyone reading the thread you are probably (but maybe) trying to convert others to Islam.

You are taking advantage of kind, well meaning Christians to talk Islam. You ignore fantastic rebuttals to some claims you and your friend made, but continue to go on with a long dialogue soon after about Islam. (That is my humble Opinion)
If you don’t care, (want to convert others to Islam) why do you act like you do?
Again when you go on and on and on and on about Islam you are rejecting my Lord Jesus Christ, you are confusing others as to what I believe is The Real God. By going on and on and on you are maybe getting in the way of someone who might accept Jesus but wont cause you have confused them. So if you you’re not trying to convert, why don’t you back off with so much Islam and let this thread die. Cause I care about souls,,, as you said in so many words or your friends,, that no more Muslims are needed, as you have enough.

I don't know why you are so upset. Your posts in this thread are more than mine, and you talked more about christianity and Jesus than I did about Islam and Mohammed. And after all, this is a chatting board and people are here to chat and say their points in good manner.

As for "false prophets", we are warned about them in Islam as well.

I have put a clear scientific and logical evidence about Quran and the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), but you answered with unlogical thing about satan which no one believes in except you and your friend KK.

As I said before, I'm just putting my point of view. I'm not trying to confuse people here and now one complained about it except you. If you are confused, then it's you problem and don't read my posts.

I told you before in one my posts that you didn't have logic in your posts and discussion with you was pointless. So, now I believe I was right.

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 09:36 PM

I don't know why you are so upset. Your posts in this thread are more than mine, and you talked more about Christianity and Jesus than I did about islam and mohammed. And after all, this is a chatting board and people are here to chat and say their points in good manner. I’m not upset, why do you say that? I was just stating my opinion. Like you
So let’s keep chatting, with each other or to others.

As for "false prophets", we are warned about them in Islam as well.

I have put a clear scientific and logical evidence about Quran and the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), but you answered with unlogical thing about satan which no one believes in except you and your friend KK.
This is absolutely, unequivocally, not true. I gave a spot on, from the Bible ( which you say has been used by your religion) about Satan’s powers. That is so far from not logical as far can be. Besides we’re talking God and prophets and powers and etc, get the pic?

As I said before, I'm just putting my point of view. I'm not trying to confuse people here and now one complained about it except you. If you are confused, then it's you problem and don't read my posts. Oh they have complained you just missed it. Or are lying, I’ve seen many complaints. Their being polite, as I am, but I guess I’m a more in your face kind of guy.

I told you before in one my posts that you didn't have logic in your posts and discussion with you was pointless. So, now I believe I was right.
I have lots of logic,,,,, and discussing with you is anything but pointless to me.

Kaptain Karl

11-07-2006, 10:26 PM

- Jews believe in Moses, but don't believe in Jesus or Mohammed (PBUT).False claim: Jews do not "disbelieve" Jesus lived, died and was resurrected. They just don't believe He is the Messiah.

Of course they know who Mohammed is. They just don't believe in his vision-grown-to-Islam.

- Christians believe in Moses and Jesus, but don't believe in Mohammed (PBUT).Of course we know who Mohammed is. We just don't believe in his religious authority.

- Moslems believe in all of them (PBUT).This is not logical. I've already pointed-out the last book of the Bible says not to add to the Scriptures. Since the Koran violates this, one cannot believe in all of Christian principles AND Muslim principles.

- KK

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 10:41 PM

False claim: Jews do not "disbelieve" Jesus lived, died and was resurrected. They just don't believe He is the Messiah.

This is what I meant.

Of course they know who Mohammed is. They just don't believe in his vision-grown-to-Islam.

This is what I meant.

Of course we know who Mohammed is. We just don't believe in his religious authority.

This is what I meant.

This is not logical. I've already pointed-out the last book of the Bible says not to add to the Scriptures. Since the Koran violates this, one cannot believe in all of Christian principles AND Muslim principles.

- KK

Muslims believe, as it was mentioned in meny posts around, that the Bible and Torat were the words of God (Allah) but got deviated by those who wrote them and Islam came to correct these devations. I understand that you don't accept this idea from muslims.

At the end, christians can believe in what they believe in and muslims can believe in what they believe in. Muslims were ordered in the Quran to have peaceful dialogue with none-muslims to explain their religion, if they don't accept it then no hard feeling whatsoever, because only with the guidance of God (Allah) people get to know the right path, no matter how much we try.

Kaptain Karl

11-07-2006, 10:55 PM

what makes you so sure though?I apologize. I posted reflexively and did not consider slice's post as much as I should have.

I was reacting as I did to Mahboob's false claims about "recently discovered" and politically motivated "shaping" of the Bible (The latter claimed to be done by Constantine).

Yes, Catholics include the "Apochryphal" books in their Bible. They are sectioned-off from the rest of the Bible and explained to be "contested" by many Christians. Every Catholic scholar I have had the pleasure to study the Word with (or debate) has agreed to focus on what Christians refer to as "Canon" (meaning "ruler" or "standard"). Here's a link www.bible-researcher.com/canon1.html to review while TT is down tomorrow....

... another gentleman [slice] on this board said the same thing and he actually layed it out in quite detail...i had no idea it was like that...the fact that other parts of christianity have more books in their bible than some and the catholics have a different one?I appreciate slice's contributions. I would "pick a nit" about the "gnostic Bible." Since I don't consider gnostics to be "Christian" ... obviously I wouldn't give their "scripture" the same status as our Bible.

- KK

ThePlungerMan

11-07-2006, 11:00 PM

At the end, Christians can believe in what they believe in and muslims can believe in what they believe in. muslims were ordered in the Quran to have peaceful dialogue with none-muslims to explain their religion, if they don't accept it then no hard feeling whatsoever, because only with the guidance of God (Allah) people get to know the right path, no matter how much we try.

In the end, muslims can believe in what they believe in and Christians can believe in what they believe in. Christians were ordered in the bible to have peaceful dialogue with none-Christians to explain their religion, if they don't accept it then, ‘no hard feeling whatsoever’ (correction, that’s sad), because only with the guidance of God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Sprit people get to know the right path, no matter how much we try.

mohmoh

11-07-2006, 11:42 PM

In the end, muslims can believe in what they believe in and Christians can believe in what they believe in. Christians were ordered in the bible to have peaceful dialogue with none-Christians to explain their religion, if they don't accept it then, ‘no hard feeling whatsoever’ (correction, that’s sad), because only with the guidance of God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Sprit people get to know the right path, no matter how much we try.

- As I said 'no hard feeling'.

- What I really wonder is, since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol over their hearts and has the ability to manipulate their hearts and conscious. And how would he guide the people who came before him? he was not born yet. And how would he guide me or you, he does not know us?

- Only the One who created humans knows all of them and has the secrets of human conscious and then knows how to guide them to whatever path he wants.

- Jesus was a human in his physical structure like other humans, he lived in his mother's body for nine months (do u think God would stay nine months in another human's body?), was born like other humans, lived his childhood like other children (of course God gave him some miracles like ability to speak while he was very very young), ate food like others. But ofcourse he was beloved by God (Allah) and was given the status that we know.

ThePlungerMan

11-08-2006, 05:18 AM

- As I said 'no hard feeling'.

- What I really wonder is, since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol over their hearts and has the ability to manipulate their hearts and conscious. And how would he guide the people who came before him? he was not born yet. And how would he guide me or you, he does not know us?

- Only the One who created humans knows all of them and has the secrets of human conscious and then knows how to guide them to whatever path he wants.

- Jesus was a human in his physical structure like other humans, he lived in his mother's body for nine months (do u think God would stay nine months in another human's body?), was born like other humans, lived his childhood like other children (of course God gave him some miracles like ability to speak while he was very very young), ate food like others. But ofcourse he was beloved by God (Allah) and was given the status that we know.
Your arguing against Jesus as a Muslim. Your using that, how can Jesus be a man and god? angle again. You’ve already shared this. Same ol same ol. And you say you are just sharing. That you don’t care what who or whom believes. Come up with something new,, and quit with the luvey dubey Mr. passive live and let live kind of routine. When it seems clear you have an agenda, LIKE MEEEEEEE TOOOOOOO

ThePlungerMan

11-08-2006, 05:47 AM

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist,

mohmoh

11-08-2006, 07:12 PM

Your arguing against Jesus as a Muslim. Your using that, how can Jesus be a man and god? angle again. You’ve already shared this. Same ol same ol. And you say you are just sharing. That you don’t care what who or whom believes. Come up with something new,, and quit with the luvey dubey Mr. passive live and let live kind of routine. When it seems clear you have an agenda, LIKE MEEEEEEE TOOOOOOO

No, I don't have any agenda like yours. I just found a statement in your previous post which did not make sense to me (as most of your posts), and I questioned that statement. (The one which says that Jesus Christ guides us...)

Again, you did not answer my inquiries which I put in my post. Let me repeat them in a clear way:

- Since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol over their hearts and has the ability to manipulate their hearts and conscious?

- How would he guide the people who came before him? he was not born yet.

- And how would he guide me or you? He does not know us.

- Would a God (Jesus) live in his mother's body for nine months?

- During his childhood, would he be able to protect himself or others from any bad thing?

pinky42

11-08-2006, 09:51 PM

You are "technically" correct, that I didn't answer the question directly. BUT ... the confirming archeological discoveries do give those who think the Bible is mythological problems.

There is a historical component to the bible and a supernatural component. Archeological discoveries can confirm historical components of the bible, torah, koran, etc. I am not aware of people who have a problem with this. Archeological discoveries cannot confirm supernatural components of any religous texts since by definition, science does not deal with the supernatural. When you refer to "those who think the bible is mythological" you really mean to say "those who think the supernatual claims of the bible are mythological" and archeological discoveries do nothing to change that.

(It supports the truth of the whole when more and more of its parts are found to be accurately stated.)

That is poor logic. I can make a list of accurate statements and then tack on "Zeus sits atop Mount Olympus and hurls lightning bolts at hapless Greeks." Is the truth value of the final statement influenced by the accuracy of the preceeding statements? Now apply that same reasoning to the religious text of your choice.

I ask again. Given religious text X, how do you know Satan didn't write it? Rember, Satan is tricky, so he can insert any number of truths to hide a lie.

ThePlungerMan

11-08-2006, 10:29 PM

I asked you
So withstanding accepting The Trinity, do you understand what Christians mean about it?
One God in three different forms. Like a super duper magician.
you then answered with this
I understand it, but I don't believe in it. But thanks for the explanation anyway.
Then the next day you say this
- What I really wonder is, since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol .....
Then me
Your arguing against Jesus as a Muslim. Your using that, how can Jesus be a man and god? angle again. You’ve already shared this. Same ol same ol.
This is called going around in circles, Do you know what that means?

You then post this
No, I don't have any agenda like yours. I just found a statement in your previous post which did not make sense to me (as most of your posts), and I questioned that statement. (The one which says that Jesus Christ guides us...)
Again, you did not answer my inquiries which I put in my post. Let me repeat them in a clear way:
- Since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol over their hearts and has the ability to manipulate their hearts and conscious?
- How would he guide the people who came before him? he was not born yet.
- And how would he guide me or you? He does not know us.
- Would a God (Jesus) live in his mother's body for nine months?
- During his childhood, would he be able to protect himself or others from any bad thing?
I just found a statement in your previous post which did not make sense to me (as most of your posts),
That sounds like what someone would say who said they understand what The Trinity meant then acted soon thereafter like they didn’t understand how Jesus could be God.

Well you said you knew what The Trinity meant so your post doesn’t make sense, Unless, maybe, your lying, then it does. Lying in that you don’t understand but said you did. Or did understand but are saying you don’t now. Or maybe not lying and just not understanding, but saying you understand.

Mahboob Khan

11-09-2006, 07:19 AM

Through these discussions (KK) I learned that:

-- God is one but in three persons i.e. God, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Well, we know through Qura'an that the Holy Spirit is from God, thus, God and Holy Spirit are the same. And since God did not have sex with Meryam, the term "son" is a symbolic because God is the Creator of Jesus just as He created Adam out of nowhere. In that sense we all are His sons and daughters because He is our Creator afterall. If this is the definition of the Son, then we do not have any problem with "Trinity".

-- That Jesus Christ WAS crucified/killed.

Can someone tell me, "Was Jesus really killed as a result of crucifixion?" Or, "Did he survive it by some means and was not killed?"

If he died as a result of crucifixion, for how long did he remain dead? Three days?

KK, I shall appreciate your answer.

D-man

11-09-2006, 07:54 AM

Again, you did not answer my inquiries which I put in my post. Let me repeat them in a clear way:

- Since Jesus Christ did not create humans (and he can't), how could he then have conrol over their hearts and has the ability to manipulate their hearts and conscious?

- How would he guide the people who came before him? he was not born yet.

- And how would he guide me or you? He does not know us.

- Would a God (Jesus) live in his mother's body for nine months?

- During his childhood, would he be able to protect himself or others from any bad thing?

The Trinity according to my understanding and revelation is that God is three persons. You could say these are "three Gods," however the reason I call them One God is that they are in Perfect Unity; absolutely perfect unity, but still three Persons. Before the creation, fall, and redemption of humankind, the Three Persons had already decided their roles to each other in how they would relate to humankind. Two Persons took submissive roles, and One Person took the dominant role, which is God the Father. The Holy Spirit and the Son of God took submissive roles and, though they are God, choose to submit to the Father and point humankind to the Father. Both He and the Holy Spirit will forever be subject to the Father, but voluntarily. Jesus Christ has two natures. Before He became a man, He was God. At a definite moment in time, as God, he became a man and a creation, in His predetermined role as Sacrificial Savior of humankind. When he became a man and a creation, His Divinity was hidden within His humanity, and all His Divine authority and power were voluntarily dormant. He was a true human being in every sense, from gestation onwards, but within His spirit was His dormant divinity. He had to be an infinite sacrifice because the many sins of each and every human infinitely offended an infinitely holy God. He had to be a true human being, because part of his testing to be a fitting sacrifice was to live an earthly life just as any human would, except for perfectly; and because he had to stand on behalf of humans for punishment and resurrection; to carry every soul who would believe in Him from spiritual death to spiritual life.

That is poor logic. I can make a list of accurate statements and then tack on "Zeus sits atop Mount Olympus and hurls lightning bolts at hapless Greeks." Is the truth value of the final statement influenced by the accuracy of the preceeding statements? Now apply that same reasoning to the religious text of your choice.

I ask again. Given religious text X, how do you know Satan didn't write it? Rember, Satan is tricky, so he can insert any number of truths to hide a lie.

Pinky, as a Christian, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. You succinctly got right to the heart of the issue, in that historically accurate documents can still have easily inserted supernatural fictional elements. It takes a miracle to believe in miracles, naturally, or to know among the many claimed miracles which could possibly be true miracles. Since the Bible itself seems to clearly say that people can't believe it without a miracle, who am I to contradict what it itself says, especially as someone within whom the miracle has taken place. Why Christians expect Biblical historicity to affect unbelievers is beyond me, when Christ said we must be born again. As for Satan being the author of whatever text, I realize Satan could be the author of any religious book. The Bible itself says, "2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." Evil will always attempt to pose as good, even as it does in the world today. The only way anyone can know they are not deceived is by the witness of God, Himself. But those who are deceived can feel just as sure of themselves as those who know they are not, thus the only way is to be as honest with ourselves as possible, and keep looking for God until we know that we know we have found Him.

Can someone tell me, "Was Jesus really killed as a result of crucifixion?" Or, "Did he survive it by some means and was not killed?"

If he died as a result of crucifixion, for how long did he remain dead? Three days?

The New Testament records that Christ was dead just under three days. During this time Christ said He was "in the heart of the earth," taking the punishment for your sins and my sins against God. Afterwards, he was raised from death into a supernatural body. I recommend you read the Gospels, they are not very long! Perhaps even one's very salvation may depend on it. I don't recommend the King James, however, it is a hybrid mongrel of a tranlsation, rather poorly done. It was written in antiquated language even for the time, it stole too much from Tyndale, it's inaccurate in many places, and it's just plain hard to understand most of all. The NASB I can recommend. William Tyndale, for whom I am filled with admiration, was the first translator of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek directly into English, and his translation is simply excellent, far better than the KJV. He was martyred and died for his belief in the inspiration of Scripture.

mohmoh

11-09-2006, 11:17 AM

ThePlungerMan

11-09-2006, 01:02 PM

Thanks and highly appreciated.
What about me?

Mahboob Khan

11-09-2006, 04:41 PM

What about me?

Sir, you are also very appreciated. We may not agree with you, just as you have not agreed with us, but we have enjoyed your posts and learned a great deal about you and your religion. I am very pleased that you are devoted to your religion just as we are devoted to ours. We are very sinfull but at the same time quite emotional about our religions hoping that the true God (Allah) shall excuse us. To this end, if Isa son of Meryam (Jesus Christ) and/or Mohammad (peace be upon them) chip in to recommend our case to Lord God, then what else do we need?

Keep it up brother Plungerman. Your God and my Allah is indeed very merciful. And He will excuse us, insha'allah.

Mahboob Khan

11-09-2006, 04:56 PM

The Trinity according to my understanding and revelation is that God is three persons. You could say these are "three Gods," however the reason I call them One God is that they are in Perfect Unity; absolutely perfect unity, but still three Persons. Before the creation, fall, and redemption of humankind, the Three Persons had already decided their roles to each other in how they would relate to humankind. Two Persons took submissive roles, and One Person took the dominant role, which is God the Father. The Holy Spirit and the Son of God took submissive roles and, though they are God, choose to submit to the Father and point humankind to the Father. Both He and the Holy Spirit will forever be subject to the Father, but voluntarily. Jesus Christ has two natures. Before He became a man, He was God. At a definite moment in time, as God, he became a man and a creation, in His predetermined role as Sacrificial Savior of humankind. When he became a man and a creation, His Divinity was hidden within His humanity, and all His Divine authority and power were voluntarily dormant. He was a true human being in every sense, from gestation onwards, but within His spirit was His dormant divinity. He had to be an infinite sacrifice because the many sins of each and every human infinitely offended an infinitely holy God. He had to be a true human being, because part of his testing to be a fitting sacrifice was to live an earthly life just as any human would, except for perfectly; and because he had to stand on behalf of humans for punishment and resurrection; to carry every soul who would believe in Him from spiritual death to spiritual life.

Pinky, as a Christian, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. You succinctly got right to the heart of the issue, in that historically accurate documents can still have easily inserted supernatural fictional elements. It takes a miracle to believe in miracles, naturally, or to know among the many claimed miracles which could possibly be true miracles. Since the Bible itself seems to clearly say that people can't believe it without a miracle, who am I to contradict what it itself says, especially as someone within whom the miracle has taken place. Why Christians expect Biblical historicity to affect unbelievers is beyond me, when Christ said we must be born again. As for Satan being the author of whatever text, I realize Satan could be the author of any religious book. The Bible itself says, "2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 2 Cor 11:14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light." Evil will always attempt to pose as good, even as it does in the world today. The only way anyone can know they are not deceived is by the witness of God, Himself. But those who are deceived can feel just as sure of themselves as those who know they are not, thus the only way is to be as honest with ourselves as possible, and keep looking for God until we know that we know we have found Him.

The New Testament records that Christ was dead just under three days. During this time Christ said He was "in the heart of the earth," taking the punishment for your sins and my sins against God. Afterwards, he was raised from death into a supernatural body. I recommend you read the Gospels, they are not very long! Perhaps even one's very salvation may depend on it. I don't recommend the King James, however, it is a hybrid mongrel of a tranlsation, rather poorly done. It was written in antiquated language even for the time, it stole too much from Tyndale, it's inaccurate in many places, and it's just plain hard to understand most of all. The NASB I can recommend. William Tyndale, for whom I am filled with admiration, was the first translator of the Bible from Hebrew and Greek directly into English, and his translation is simply excellent, far better than the KJV. He was martyred and died for his belief in the inspiration of Scripture.

Thank you D-Man. Your knowledge about Christianity is more than some of your scholars! I am impressed and learned a great deal about Christianity.

You said, "Christ was dead under just three days". During this time of just under three days was there any possibility that he might have been alive but it appeared to the people of the time that he was dead but he was alive?
I am asking this because of the following verse in Qura'an:

Surat an-Nisa: 4:157-158:

"(And on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Isa, son of Maryam, Messenger of Allah". They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise."

Our belief is that Allah tooketh him back, as in this verse:

Surat Al Imran: 3:55

"When Allah said, "Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed."

May Allah help us!

mohmoh

11-09-2006, 05:34 PM

What about me?

I think I thanked you before. And I thank you again for you're trying to explain your religion to me.

D-man

11-09-2006, 07:07 PM

Thank you D-Man. Your knowledge about Christianity is more than some of your scholars! I am impressed and learned a great deal about Christianity.

You said, "Christ was dead under just three days". During this time of just under three days was there any possibility that he might have been alive but it appeared to the people of the time that he was dead but he was alive?
I am asking this because of the following verse in Qura'an:

Surat an-Nisa: 4:157-158:

"(And on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Isa, son of Maryam, Messenger of Allah". They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to seem so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise."

Our belief is that Allah tooketh him back, as in this verse:

Surat Al Imran: 3:55

"When Allah said, "Isa, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed."

May Allah help us!

That is very interesting what the Qura'an says of Isa. Could you list for me any other passages that talk of him?

The Bible also declares that God will judge all human beings one day in a final time of Judgment for how their lives measured up to His holy demands. Except that because Jesus Christ took the punishment, anyone who is willing to admit their need of His sacrifice in their place will recieve new life inside their spirit. A new birth is what Christ talks of, a second birth. Nicodemus the great Jewish teacher objected, "But how can man be born when he is old? Can he crawl back into his mother's womb and be born?" But Jesus replied that it is a different kind of birth, a birth into a realm that is like the wind—you hear and feel the wind's effects, but you can never really see the substance, it is invisible. And a birth requires a painful travail. As a believer I cannot deny the physical and actual death of Jesus Christ upon a wooden execution stake of some sort. This death was on my behalf, for my sins, my shortcomings, my trespasses. No righteous act will be good enough for me to erase my previous failings or earn eternal life. Some of the disciples were there watching. Many women followers were weeping. The soldiers watched every moment, and two men were crucified there with him. The man on the left mocked him and said, "If you are really the 'Son of God' like you preached, save yourself and us too, right now." The man on the right rebuked him and said, "We both know we are sinful and deserve this punishment, but this is a holy man who has done no wrong—please remember me in your new kingdom, Jesus..." His own mother was there. And the sky grew dark, the record reports, and when he died, he screamed out and the earth itself shook (a minor earthquake), so that even the unbelieving soldiers thought he must be somebody special somehow. This is all recorded in the Gospels with much other details and I find the witness of the Holy Spirit to the text. A new birth requires a travail, and this was Christ's moment of passion and anguish. Love and holiness united in desire to save the souls of humankind from the punishment they deserved.

Allah's mercy is there to be found. Peace.

ThePlungerMan

11-09-2006, 10:40 PM

Sir, you are also very appreciated. We may not agree with you, just as you have not agreed with us, but we have enjoyed your posts and learned a great deal about you and your religion. I am very pleased that you are devoted to your religion just as we are devoted to ours.
Thank you
We are very sinfull but at the same time quite emotional about our religions hoping that the true God (Allah) shall excuse us. To this end, if Isa son of Meryam (Jesus Christ) and/or Mohammad (peace be upon them) chip in to recommend our case to Lord God, then what else do we need?
We as in Muslims, or we as in you and me? Because if it’s the former I have to say thanks but no thanks, I’m going to rely on The God I believe is The True God along with Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.
Keep it up brother Plungerman.
As you can tell I am. :)
Your God and my Allah is indeed very merciful. And He will excuse us, insha'allah.
I believe it sends the wrong signal to assume it’s OK to talk about our Gods like it’s OK to believe in one or the other.
Hope you understand.
Thanks.

I think I thanked you before. And I thank you again for you're trying to explain your religion to me.
Yes you did and thanks again.

.....Allah's mercy is there to be found. Peace.
As usual another great post. You da man D-Man, I know I know, an empty vessel right?
I was concerned with your ending, thought you were maybe giving in, (if you will), IOW giving the impression it was OK to believe in The Muslim God, Allah. So I did a search in The Bible, (2 versions) and found not that name. But in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah it gives the following defintion. So I guess that was what you may have meant. It says
Allah is the Arabic language word referring to "God", "the Lord" and, literally according to the Qur'an, to the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" in the Abrahamic religions. It does not mean "a god", but rather "the Only God", the Supreme Creator of the universe, and it is the main term for the deity in Islam. However, "Allah" is not restricted to just Islam, and is used by Christians and Jews in some regions.
Thoughts?
Thanks again for letting me share.

Mahboob Khan

11-10-2006, 08:54 AM

As a result of these discussions we learned from you:

1. That One God is in three persons i.e. God, Son, and the Holy Spirit. We learned from you that contrary to Islamic belief (that Isa did not die on cross, he was not killed, but was taken up), Isa (Jesus Christ) did die a physical death at least for three days.

2. We also learned that Jesus was submissive to the Supreme God, The Father. Also in the Bible, I read somewhere Jesus saying, "It is not my will, it is the will of my Father (i.e. the Supreme God). In other words he had submitted to the will of the Supreme God.

Point 1: Since God was in three persons, don't you think with the death of the Son, Jesus Christ, the Supreme God also died with him -- at least for three days. If this is the case, then who ran the universe in the absence of its Creator, the Lord God?

Point 2: You said that Jesus was submissive to the Supreme God. Well, Islam means "submission to the will of Lord God (Allah)". Muslim means, "a person who submitted to the will of Lord God (Allah)". According to this criteria, Jesus was a Muslim and he has been so described in Al-Qura'an.

Time permitting, I will quote many verses about Isa son of Meryam (Jesus Christ),and here is one:

2:253: "(Of these Messengers) We favoured soms of them over others. Allah spoke directly to some of them and raised up some of them in rank. We gave Clear Signs to Isa, son of Maryam, and reinforced him with the Holy Spirit (Rooh ul Qudus)".

Mahboob Khan

11-10-2006, 08:59 AM

Thank you

We as in Muslims, or we as in you and me? Because if it’s the former I have to say thanks but no thanks, I’m going to rely on The God I believe is The True God along with Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.

As you can tell I am. :)

I believe it sends the wrong signal to assume it’s OK to talk about our Gods like it’s OK to believe in one or the other.
Hope you understand.
Thanks.

Yes you did and thanks again.

As usual another great post. You da man D-Man, I know I know, an empty vessel right?
I was concerned with your ending, thought you were maybe giving in, (if you will), IOW giving the impression it was OK to believe in The Muslim God, Allah. So I did a search in The Bible, (2 versions) and found not that name. But in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah it gives the following defintion. So I guess that was what you may have meant. It says
Allah is the Arabic language word referring to "God", "the Lord" and, literally according to the Qur'an, to the "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" in the Abrahamic religions. It does not mean "a god", but rather "the Only God", the Supreme Creator of the universe, and it is the main term for the deity in Islam. However, "Allah" is not restricted to just Islam, and is used by Christians and Jews in some regions.
Thoughts?
Thanks again for letting me share.

Well, that's what I have been saying that Allah means "The God" "The ONLY GOD".

Whilst I was in Egypt, I came across many Egyptian Christians who do not mind reciting Qura'an, and use the name of Allah as their God.

ThePlungerMan

11-10-2006, 10:33 AM

Well, that's what I have been saying that Allah means "The God" "The ONLY GOD".

Whilst I was in Egypt, I came across many Egyptian Christians who do not mind reciting Qura'an, and use the name of Allah as their God.
And that’s why I was concerned with D-Man using Allah as a happy good feel send off in his post. Since Christians don’t believe in The Only One God deal.

As far as your previous post. Your leaning to your own understanding and using worldly sense to validate The Trinity. Think one God in three capacities at the same time.

Mahboob Khan

11-10-2006, 05:45 PM

And that’s why I was concerned with D-Man using Allah as a happy good feel send off in his post. Since Christians don’t believe in The Only One God deal.

As far as your previous post. Your leaning to your own understanding and using worldly sense to validate The Trinity. Think one God in three capacities at the same time.

I am thinking, I am thinking, "One God in three capacities, in three places, in three persons at the same time". But then what happens when one God out of the three dies? Don't you think that the other two die with Him. Sir, it is against common-sense. It is unfair to Jesus to say that Jesus was God, or Son of God, and/or God died on the cross. Several years ago when I was reading the Bible, I read it somewhere (someone please help me); Jesus saying in the Bible, "Look at me, look at my hands; I have flesh and bones, but the Father does not have flesh and bones" implying there that both God and Jesus were made up of different components. Then, we know that Jesus and his mother used to eat and drink, but Lord God does not eat and drink!

D-man

11-10-2006, 06:37 PM

I am thinking, I am thinking, "One God in three capacities, in three places, in three persons at the same time". But then what happens when one God out of the three dies? Don't you think that the other two die with Him. Sir, it is against common-sense. It is unfair to Jesus to say that Jesus was God, or Son of God, and/or God died on the cross. Several years ago when I was reading the Bible, I read it somewhere (someone please help me); Jesus saying in the Bible, "Look at me, look at my hands; I have flesh and bones, but the Father does not have flesh and bones" implying there that both God and Jesus were made up of different components. Then, we know that Jesus and his mother used to eat and drink, but Lord God does not eat and drink!

There is no such thing as common sense. If it were common all humans would agree. Please don't use that objection.

I explained that Jesus Christ was fully a human being. That is the part that is hard to understand, because He is a real human being that is also God. Thus, as a human being, He also had a God, since he was part creation. Now as a human being, he could eat and drink, he could die a death. You misquote the Bible there, and I notice you misquote it a lot. I suggest you read it again in a better version than the KJV. It gives me the impression you really don't care what the Bible says, and the Bible is where God has revealed Himself to humanity. Now remember that the Divinity was dormant within Jesus and he died as a man and was punished for all sins.

I think that you see God as a holy God, right? If God is holy, perfectly pure, how can he allow even a tiny sin in His Presence? I don't think he could. And if we are honest with ourself, we don't even live up to our own standards—let alone, God's standards. We are not used to the idea of such severity, but certainly God is not like any man. No deeds are good enough to make us pure before God. No sins can ever come into His Presence. I know Who's paying for my sins, and I hope you come to see and know Him also. As Christ said, "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all people to myself."

ThePlungerMan

11-10-2006, 07:14 PM

I am thinking, I am thinking, "One God in three capacities, in three places, in three persons at the same time". But then what happens when one God out of the three dies? Don't you think that the other two die with Him. Sir, it is against common-sense. It is unfair to Jesus to say that Jesus was God, or Son of God, and/or God died on the cross. Several years ago when I was reading the Bible, I read it somewhere (someone please help me); Jesus saying in the Bible, "Look at me, look at my hands; I have flesh and bones, but the Father does not have flesh and bones" implying there that both God and Jesus were made up of different components. Then, we know that Jesus and his mother used to eat and drink, but Lord God does not eat and drink!
What’s up with the worldly reasoning why it doesn’t make sense to you about The Trinity. This thread isn’t, THE MUSLIMS VIEW ON WHY JESUS CHRIST AS PART OF THE TRINITY PER THE BIBLE DOESN’T MAKE SENSE.

Both you guys say you don’t care what other’s believe, but your both sure knocking yourselves out with endless ways to rebuttal posts, that common sense dictates, to leave alone. That is if you really don’t care, which you both have clearly stated in previous posts. But you know the ol saying, if it quakes like a duck, looks like a duck, it’s probably a duck.

I’m going to say this again. (and as many times as necessary no matter what anyone says) You are arguing from a Muslim point of view, leaning to your own understanding etc. Instead of giving the intended impression you claim, (wanting to know about Jesus) it appears you are really trying to disprove what Christians say about Him. By coming up with reasons why Jesus doesn’t make sense. Go back and re-read D-Man’s posts that he worked so hard on for you and your bud, if your goal really is to ‘’get’’ what The Trinity means.

And this taking scripture, twisting it around per a Muslims view, (agenda) to disprove The Trinity, well, doesn’t sit well here. You are putting a real hack job on The Bible.
As I mentioned in a post or two ago. My pastor would shred your copy and paste job to little tiny bits, as it correlates to The Bible. A total massacre of those posts would ensue, which the secular crowd, if they were so inclined to follow such a debate would whole heartily agree. They’d say things like wow, no kidding, I never knew that.

- W. Montgomery Watt, ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY TODAY, London, 1983, p. ixW.
"I am not a Muslim in the usual sense, though I hope I am a "Muslim" as "one surrendered to God,"
I HOPE? RED FLAG.

And the big copy and paste job from both of you guys, those are from Men of The World instead of Men In God, per The Bible. It’s empty words, there’re just ramblings of False teachers, that’s all.
1 Timothy 1:3
[ Warning Against False Teachers of the Law ] As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer

D-man

11-10-2006, 09:31 PM

And that’s why I was concerned with D-Man using Allah as a happy good feel send off in his post.
I'm comfortable referring to someone's conception of "Creator" as God, if only I can point out to them the way to God's approval through the gift of His Son. As Paul said, "I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some." (1 Cor. 9:22) Hell is forever and ever, and a little extra effort on a forum post is worth it if they might only see the light of salvation.
You are putting a real hack job on The Bible.
I must say at this point I am quite inclined to agree. They say the Bible is all messed up, and then try to use the Bible to disprove the Bible, while messing it up in the process. I have no respect for such sloppiness and disrespect. I never treated the Qura'an the way they have treated the Bible, and for that I can only say "shame." Thanks for your encouragement, Mr. Plunger, and your efforts are appreciated.

ThePlungerMan

11-11-2006, 09:02 AM

but sir, you do not believe in Muhammad as a Messenger of Allah, and you do not believe that Qura'an is the word of Allah,
Yes that’s true

because your belief is that prophethood and Divine Revelations stopped with Bible and anything after Jesus and Bible is false.
I see another trick coming up.
Sir, you are the one who is attacking Islam as false. We are just trying to let you know about our religion -- not more not less.
Yeah by counterfeiting God’s spoken word per The Bible.

2 Timothy 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

This verse is a great example of Islam. You use The Bible to strengthen your case but deny what it says. Just like what D-Man eluded to, here again for your reading enjoyment.
…and then try to use the Bible to disprove the Bible, while messing it up in the process. …

We are just defending our great religion -- the religion of the universe!
This is of course, as per you, or a Muslims point of view.

D-man

11-11-2006, 09:04 AM

Let's see who is more respectful of each other's religion: we or you?

You can say that to Plungerman, but you cannot say that to me. I have been nothing but respectful to your religion, Sir, and I think you need to be careful to specify who you are accusing.

I did not take your Qura'an and say it was all messed up, Sir. You took my Bible and said it was all messed up. Please realize that difference. I did not misquote your Qura'an to say something it did not say, but you have severely misquoted my Bible several times, Sir. I did not ever insinuate that you did not even have common sense, Sir, no matter how wrong I thought your beliefs might be.

As I stated before, Islam believes in Jesus Christ as a great Messenger of Allah, Islam does believe that Old Testament and Bible were from Lord God.

The Bible specifically states over and over that Jesus is more than a prophet, and yet you have the gall to say "I believe the Bible is from God." You just don't believe the Bible is the Bible. Do not hide, Sir, your true beliefs. What if I said to you, "I believe in the Qura'an, but the the real Qura'an and the real Mohammed proclaimed Jesus is God. All Mohammed's followers messed up what he really said." And then I proudly proclaimed that "I believe the Qura'an is from God" over and over. Just that I dont' believe anything it says anymore.

So, you can see we believe great deal about Jesus and his Book;

Sir, you believe a great deal against and contrary to the Bible, not a great deal in agreement with it. Do not try to pretend to be something you are not. I have no respect for such subterfuge. There is abosutely nothingin agreement with the Bible that you believe other than the fact that Jesus existed.

but sir, you do not believe in Muhammad as a Messenger of Allah, and you do not believe that Qura'an is the word of Allah,

Oh, but what if I did and just claimed that over time Muhammad's followers messed up his true message. Then I could pretend to believe the "true" Muhammad.

because your belief is that prophethood and Divine Revelations stopped with Bible and anything after Jesus and Bible is false.

I'm not sure if you are talking to Plunger or me, but I do not believe this at all!

Sir, you are the one who is attacking Islam as false. We are just trying to let you know about our religion -- not more not less. We are just defending our great religion -- the religion of the universe!

I appreciate your efforts at giving us your understanding of Islam. And I encourage you not to confuse any "Christian's" lack of love and respect on this forum with true Christianity. Please, Sir, do not confuse the actions of any so-called Christian that does not represent the spirit of Christ, himself. I hope you can see the difference, and also the points I am making here.

mohmoh

11-11-2006, 09:36 AM

D-man

11-11-2006, 10:09 AM

ThePlungerMan,

I have noticed that you get angry when some one says that Jesus was not God but a Prophet, which is what muslims believes in, as you know.

But you said in few posts that you doubted that Quran was from Allah (God) but more likey it might have been from satan. No one from the muslim side got angry after your remarks about this issue.

So, if you give yourself the right to question other's beliefs, then you should accept what the others believe about your belief.

After all, we are sitting in different countries in the world and just sharing some ideas, concepts or beliefs. If you accept the others beliefs then that's fine, if you don't accept then that's fine as well. There is no problem at all. Take it easy fellow.

mohmoh, I really appreciate your reasonable & respectful words here, and you speak with wisdom.

What I don't like is Muslims claiming they somehow believe the Bible is from God, when they don't really. I don't come on here claiming to believe the Qura'an is from God, and I don't think that Muslims should claim to say the Bible is from God, when they do not believe a word it says. If they think that some previous long lost book that was an ancestor of the Bible, but very, very, very different from the Bible, is from God, fine, but not the Bible, and do not say or even insinuate that!

mohmoh

11-11-2006, 11:35 AM

mohmoh, I really appreciate your reasonable & respectful words here, and you speak with wisdom.

What I don't like is Muslims claiming they somehow believe the Bible is from God, when they don't really. I don't come on here claiming to believe the Qura'an is from God, and I don't think that Muslims should claim to say the Bible is from God, when they do not believe a word it says. If they think that some previous long lost book that was an ancestor of the Bible, but very, very, very different from the Bible, is from God, fine, but not the Bible, and do not say or even insinuate that!

Thanks, D-man, I found your posts more sincere and wiser than others.

In Quran, we were ordered to argue very nicely with christians and jews (except those who did aggression against muslims). And this is a chatting board, it is not a one to one communication, voice and sound. So, sometimes we may misunderstand what the other is trying to tell us in his posts, especially we are coming from different cultures and English is not our mother tongues (at least some of us).

So,
- since we both have fundemantel differences in our view of Jesus and Mohammed (PBUT),
- and since I'm confident that you'll not believe our claim that the Bible got deviated over time,
- and since we will not believe your claim that Quran is not from God (Allah)

because of the above, it would be fair to acknowledge these differences and try to work out our minds, try to look at signs in history or in our life which may lead us to what could be the right path to God (Allah).

so, in my previous posts, I tried to put down some facts which prove our stand, like how sience and (some) scientists confirmed many verses of Quran and how some christian scholars spoke highly of Islam and his Prophet Mohammed. Even in other thread, I wrote briefly about our Prophet Mohammed's CV, which in itself was a miracle (at least to muslims and some others). In every time, I faced some resistance and some shelling from others, but I accept that and understand it. But at least I explained my point as much as I could, and life goes on.

D-man

11-11-2006, 12:43 PM

I'd have more respect if Mr. Khan came on saying "Your Bible's a screwed up piece of crap," than him claiming he thinks the Bible is "from God" but entirely wrong.

The Bible is a much more ancient and trustworthy book than the Qura'an, which is relative noobie on the block. We have two major traditions of the Old Testament dating back to circa 250 BC, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Greek Septuagint. And the amazing thing is that these substantially agree, not just with each other, but with the scrolls that are over 1,500 years later. That means that over 1,500 years there was no significant change. Yet you want me to believe that the Qura'annie-come-lately (Qura'an) is going to authoritatively tell me that a tradition of books hundreds of years its senior did not accurately convey the original writings. I just can't believe that, and it defies "common sense."

uchenwc

11-11-2006, 02:05 PM

The Bible is a much more ancient and trustworthy book than the Qura'an, which is relative noobie on the block. We have two major traditions of the Old Testament dating back to circa 250 BC, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Greek Septuagint. And the amazing thing is that these substantially agree, not just with each other, but with the scrolls that are over 1,500 years later. That means that over 1,500 years there was no significant change. Yet you want me to believe that the Qura'annie-come-lately (Qura'an) is going to authoritatively tell me that a tradition of books hundreds of years its senior did not accurately convey the original writings. I just can't believe that, and it defies "common sense."

D-man, great post! I hesitate post to this thread and several similar threads since this is tennis board and english is not my native tongue. I was raised in a buddist family in Taiwan and first went to Morman church for about 3-4 years. But I did not know God even though I see my Morman friends live and try to teach me to live a holy life. It was not until l start to serve in a chinese christian church I saw the power of word of God.

The historical facts you gave already show how rigorous the Bible was written down and preserved through generation. As a Christ follower, it is amazed how God uses these many prophets in different time and in different area, that all point to the Christ. If I turn the coin, if this God who were willing to use these prophets instead of creating a golden book Himself, can not preserve His word, let it got lost in translation, then He is not worth believing. That is the reason false teaching came along as said in Bible.

I think it is fitting since OP is asking if Muslim & Christian believe in the same God, I want to point out the ancient Chinese also believe in God. There are words in chinese characters(more than 100) related to bible stories like big division after babel tower, big flood, Noah's ark, Lamb sacrifice to become rightous..., at least for fun for anyone may see life just as coincidence after coincidence, http://www.wbschool.org/chinesecharacters.htm:p

As friends in this forum, just my 2c, take it or leave it, there is always part that call 'faith' that I can not prove to you unless you happen to believe in the same God as me:D

uchenwc

11-11-2006, 02:29 PM

sorry my lack of experience to post show:-) fix the link below.

http://www.wbschool.org/chinesecharacters.htm

D-man

11-11-2006, 03:16 PM

sorry my lack of experience to post show:-) fix the link below.

http://www.wbschool.org/chinesecharacters.htm

That's cool, brother. It just shows how ancient these ideas and traditions go.

uchenwc

11-11-2006, 04:04 PM

That's cool, brother. It just shows how ancient these ideas and traditions go.

Even though the chinese characters is not the reason that lead me to Christ, it did reaffirm the creator God in my mind. After going through buddist, book of Mormon, I found the Bible really is complete in itself. From the beginning, God has already prepared the salvation. It was not incident that Moses wrote down Noah's Ark, Issac as sacrifical lamb(even though God stop Abraham), Jacob(Israel)'s family was preserved through Joseph been sold to Egypt and Moses was preserved in papyrus basket. For me all these were not written down by accident. The Ark, lamb, papyrus backet are just like Christ and His resurrection to us. And other OT have numerous predictions of Christ's coming. I really can not imagine the Bible can be written with so much coherency without the work through Holy Spirit. I just can not see any other resemblance in any other religious work but Christ himself. God not only preserve the original Word, He also have people in almost every other language in the world to have word by word translation to make sure His Word is not lost. That's even amazing. Or for sinners like me can never have chance to know God.

I do like to hear people's testmony from a religious background convert to another total different religious background but am afraid the thread already stray off too much!

Mahboob Khan

11-11-2006, 05:34 PM

There are areas of our lives where we can apply what you might call "common sense" and there are areas that are above anything that could be so-called. There is no contradiction there. Just because the core of my beliefs are not strictly logical, it does not mean I forgo all rational reasoning. I can look at the history of textual transmission over thousands of years and see the relatively unusual preservation that has taken place. I can deduce that the text is more likely to be accurate than another manuscript tradition that has had more drastic differences. This is not a supernatural aspect of life or belief, and I never made the claim that it was. I did not make the claim that therefore the text must be supernatural. I made the claim that a much later text claiming the older text was originally different, would have much less authority in a natural sense. I was not making a supernatural claim at all.

D-man, take it easy. It's better for you Christian and Jewish brothers to listen to us so that you understand us. So many conflicts in the past including the Vietnam war, Iraq, and Afghanistan, were because of misunderstanding of various cultures and religions. We do believe that anything which is against logic (sorry I used the wrong word commonsense) is not from God. I always read your posts very carefully and I learn from them. But, I would like to give you the following example:

Let's say by profession you are a NASA Engineer, and you rely on Engineering Manual written ten years ago. You receive a fresh updated version of the Engineering Manual. The Company asks you to discard the old Manual and in its place keep the new Manual for reference. Should you insist that you like to keep the old Manual because it is more authentic?

I will explain a bit further what we believe about Jesus Christ, but please this is Quranic version and you are free to reject it after I present it, and please do not be offended by it because we do not mean to offend you:

Isa: Jesus

Meryam: Mary

Musa: Moses

Islam: Complete submission/surrender to the Will of ONE Supreme Allah.

Muslim: A person who is a follower of Islam (surrendered/submitted to the Will of Allah).

Jesus (Isa) who lived 2000 years ago, is a blessed messenger of Allah, Messengers like him had come and passed away before him. He is of high esteem both in this world and the hereafter, as the Qura'an informs us. The true religion brought by him remains today, albeit merely in name. That is because, the original teaching communicated by Jesus is distorted today. The book Allah revealed to Jesus, too, remains in our day only in name. Today, the original text of this book is not available. Christian sources have undergone various alterations and distortions. Consequently today, it is unlikely that we can obtain true knowledge regarding Jesus from Christian sources.

The only sources from which we can have accurate knowledge about Jesus are the Qura'an, the book Allah assures He will keep unchanged until the Day of Judgment, and the Sunnah of His Messenger Muhammad. In the Qura'an, Allah gives an account of the birth and life of Jesus, some incidents he met in his life, the people surrounding him and many other subjects related to him. Furthermore, the Quranic verses also informs us about the life of Meryam before she gave birth to Jesus, how she became pregnant in a miraculous way and the reactions of the people surrounding her to this incident. Moreover, Allah gives the good tidings that Jesus will come to earth for a second time in the end times. In this section, you will find some of the information given in the Qura'an about Jesus. Continues.

ThePlungerMan

11-11-2006, 05:38 PM

I encourage you not to confuse any "Christian's" lack of love and respect on this forum with true Christianity. Please, Sir, do not confuse the actions of any so-called Christian that does not represent the spirit of Christ, himself. I hope you can see the difference, and also the points I am making here.
Um are you referring to me? Great posts, by the way. And thanks for the earlier compliment.
I noticed in your recent posts, a little steam coming up.
I admire your patience, love and respect for fellow humans.

It’s possible to have it (respect etc.) also, and not let it show, so glaringly. When push comes to shove I wouldn’t shove.
For me, in this thread, when they got an inch they took a mile. I also have chilled out much.
I don’t especially like this comment above as it seems vague as to who you are accusing. Or maybe I don’t like it cause, it tells me I need more work than I thought. Which I’m sure I do.

When it seems very clear the other person to whom you are conversing with, twists your words, misquotes, etc, Ignores good rebuttals and goes on to something else without a comment isn’t worthy of lots of hugs and kisses. It defeats the purpose as it prolongs the inevitable. Which is where it went, that you dealt with admirably. And very glad I didn't have to, cause would have if you didn't.

I have lots of experience dealing with people who act like them. And lavishing lots of love on them hasn’t been a successful tactic for me in a debate.( I’ve tried it many times over) As I have been taken advantage of, for using that angle that is.( a good one though). And it’s clear you have too (been taken advantage of) in this thread.

Now in other ways yes it works. Being all kissy luvey dubey snuggly wuggly that is.:)
I’ve been Born Again in Christ for about 3.5 years.
Thanks again D-=Man- AKA Man of Wonderful Love. :)

... just my 2c, take it or leave it...
Great post uchenwc. Nice to have you here. Thanks

D-man

11-11-2006, 06:14 PM

Um are you referring to me? Great posts, by the way. And thanks for the earlier compliment.
I noticed in your recent posts, a little steam coming up.
I admire your patience, love and respect for fellow humans.
....
When it seems very clear the other person to whom you are conversing with, twists your words, misquotes, etc, Ignores good rebuttals and goes on to something else without a comment isn’t worthy of lots of hugs and kisses. It defeats the purpose as it prolongs the inevitable. Which is where it went, that you dealt with admirably. And very glad I didn't have to, cause would have if you didn't.

...
I’ve been Born Again in Christ for about 3.5 years.
Thanks again D-=Man- AKA Man of Wonderful Love. :)
Thanks

I'll say one thing, Mr. Plunger, I can hardly read a post of yours without failing to suppress a smile. I was just saying if any Christian, including me, did not display the nature of Christ, to see beyond that person's imperfection. I'm certainly not inculpable when it comes to being a little impatient and insensitive at times. ;) We just want to all grow in Christ.

Well, Christ said that whole love your enemies, turn the other cheek, go the second mile, endure it when people mistreat you, and all that stuff—sounds so great when you read it, but it's a little harder when push comes to shove and the rubber meets the road. :mad: I can only depend on the grace of God. Yeah, you don't want to pat a snake on the head, but I just think we've got to be a little more careful before writing somebody off as "hopelessly reprobrate," or if you're Calvinist, "a vessel of wrath." :-o Again I say it's all about respect and showing love; and sometimes I see I've got quite a ways more to go than I thought, too... signed, D-man: desperately leaning on the grace and mercy of Christ.

D-man

11-11-2006, 06:25 PM

D-man, take it easy. It's better for you Christian and Jewish brothers to listen to us so that you understand us. So many conflicts in the past including the Vietnam war, Iraq, and Afghanistan, were because of misunderstanding of various cultures and religions. We do believe that anything which is against logic (sorry I used the wrong word commonsense) is not from God. I always read your posts very carefully and I learn from them. But, I would like to give you the following example:

As a Christian, I am personally against all forms of violence and warfare, and the New Testament never advocates Christians to any form of violence (it doesn't condemn soldiery as a profession, however).

We do believe that anything which is against logic (sorry I used the wrong word commonsense) is not from God.I hope, I simply hope, you have thought this statement through, as it is self-contradictory! Are you saying that God, the Creator of logic, is subject to his creation logic? Is that logical?

Let's say by profession you are a NASA Engineer, and you rely on Engineering Manual written ten years ago. You receive a fresh updated version of the Engineering Manual. The Company asks you to discard the old Manual and in its place keep the new Manual for reference. Should you insist that you like to keep the old Manual because it is more authentic?But you said the Bible as it now stands is incorrect. Would you say the your idea of the original correct Bible is expired?

I will explain a bit further what we believe about Jesus Christ, but please this is Quranic version and you are free to reject it after I present it, and please do not be offended by it because we do not mean to offend you:I'm just not sure you understand me. I respect the Quranic version of Jesus, I just insist it not be mixed with the True Biblical Jesus.

The book Allah revealed to Jesus, too, remains in our day only in name. Today, the original text of this book is not available. Christian sources have undergone various alterations and distortions. Consequently today, it is unlikely that we can obtain true knowledge regarding Jesus from Christian sources.You know it is funny that you claim extensive, significant corruption in the Biblical manuscripts, and yet among the thousands of Biblical manuscripts we have there is absolutely no evidence of this corruption, all the way back to the oldest NT & OT manuscripts, which are older than the Qura'an!

The Qura'an was written in Arabic. Jesus was not Arabic. Jesus could not speak Arabic. Jesus was far removed from the Arabic culture. However, NT Greek was the lingua franca of the time (universally spoken language), and Jesus certainly spoke Greek, and Greek was intimately woven into his culture. The New Testament was written in a language much closer to Jesus' culture and at a time much closer to Jesus' life, and there is abosutely no reason that the author of the Qura'an would know more about Jesus hundreds of years later in an entirely different culture. He only knew enough to take and distort the story that was written before he was even born.

D-man

11-11-2006, 07:03 PM

Even though the chinese characters is not the reason that lead me to Christ, it did reaffirm the creator God in my mind. After going through buddist, book of Mormon, I found the Bible really is complete in itself. From the beginning, God has already prepared the salvation. It was not incident that Moses wrote down Noah's Ark, Issac as sacrifical lamb(even though God stop Abraham), Jacob(Israel)'s family was preserved through Joseph been sold to Egypt and Moses was preserved in papyrus basket. For me all these were not written down by accident. The Ark, lamb, papyrus backet are just like Christ and His resurrection to us. And other OT have numerous predictions of Christ's coming. I really can not imagine the Bible can be written with so much coherency without the work through Holy Spirit. I just can not see any other resemblance in any other religious work but Christ himself. God not only preserve the original Word, He also have people in almost every other language in the world to have word by word translation to make sure His Word is not lost. That's even amazing. Or for sinners like me can never have chance to know God.

I do like to hear people's testmony from a religious background convert to another total different religious background but am afraid the thread already stray off too much!

That's terrific, brother. I'm also amazed at the intricately interwoven unity of thought and belief that the Bible exhibits. But it takes a revelation from God to see how far short we are of His excellence and how sinfully separated we are from His glorious majesty. I can only rejoice at your testimony and that you have found a treasure worth keeping in Christ, and His gracious working is evident in your life.

Mahboob Khan

11-12-2006, 12:05 AM

Our belief is that all Prophets and Messengers are sinfree because they are protected and guarded by Lord God Himself! And by the way, we never said that Muhammad was superior than Jesus because if we say this we will be going against Al-Qura'an who advises us that we should not differentiate between prophets! Jesus was all mercy, he could cure a lepers (spelling?) and with God's order make the dead alive; whereas Muhammad was sent as a mercy for all worlds. Muhammad's greatest miracle was Al-Qura'an.

Mahboob Khan

11-12-2006, 05:13 AM

In the Qura'an Allah draws our attention to thefact that, from his birth to death, Jesus was very different from allother men on earth. The Qur'an confirms his virgin birth,a type of creation with which we are not familiar. Before his birth, Allah informed his mother about many of her son's attributes including that he was sent as a Messiah to the Children of Israel. He was alsodeclared "a Word from Allah".

4:171: ... The Messiah, "Isa, son of Maryam, was only the Messenger of Allah and His Word, which He cast into Maryam, and a Spirit from Him ...

3:45: When the angel said, "Maryam, your Lord gives you good news of a Word from Him. His name is the Messiah, 'Isa, son of Maryam of high esteem in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near".

Allah gave him his name before his birth, as He did with Yahya (John). Normally, families give the names of their children yet this was otherwise in the case of Isa. Allah gave him the name the Messiah, Isa, son of Maryam. This is one of the most explicit indications that Isa was created differently from other people.

Indeed, just like his birth, the miracles he displayed throughout his life, and the way he was raised up to the presence of Allah are signs of his difference from other people.

Mahboob Khan

11-12-2006, 05:47 AM

Without any medical assistance, giving birth to a baby is very difficult thing, yet Meryam, all alone, succeeded in delivering a baby, thanks to her loyalty to Allah and the trust she put in Him. While feeling severe labor pains, Allah inspired her and instructed her in each step. In this way, she delivered her baby effortlessly and in the best circumstances. This was a great favor shown to Meryam:

19:23-26: The pains of labour drove her to the trunk of a date palm. She said, "Oh if only I had died and was something discarded and forgotten!" A voice called out to her from under her, "Do not grieve! Your Lord has placed a small stream at your feet. Shake the trunk of the palm towards you and fresh, ripe dates will drop down onto you. Eat and drink and delight your eyes. If you should see anyone at all, just say, 'I have made a vow of abstinence to the All-Merciful and today I will not speak to any human being."

Since Jesus was born in an usual way, people failed to grasp it and were suspicious:

19:27-28: She brought him to her people, carrying him. They said, "Meryam! You have done an unthinkable thing! Sister of Harun (Aaron), your father was not an evil man nor was your mother an unchaste woman!".

People assumed that Meryam had done an indecent and shocking deed, and simply slandered her in an ugly manner. However, those who spread these slanders about Meryam knew her almost from the day she was born and were aware of her purity and piety, like the other members of the family of Imran.

Surely, these accusations and slanders were a test for Meryam. It was apparent that a person, so pure and pious, would not act as alleged. This was only a test for Meryam. From the time Meryam was born, Allah always helped her and turned everything she did to good. Meryam, in return, knew that every incident happens by the Will of Allah and only Allah could prove the groundless nature of these slanders.

Allah inspired Meryam to remain silent and instead point to Jesus if they ever approached her and attempted to make accusations. Earlier, when Allah gave the good tidings of the birth of Jesus to Meryam, He also informed her that he would speak clearly while he was still in his cradle:

3:46: He will speak to people in the cradle, and also when fully grown, and will be one of the righteous.

Thus, Allah made things easier for Meryam and provided the true explanation to the people through the words of Jesus. With such a miracle, the disbelief of the people surrounding Meryam simply failed:

19:29-33: She pointed towards him. They said, "How can a baby in the cradle speak?" He said, "I am the slave of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a Prophet. He has made me blessed wherever I am and directed me to do prayer and pay poor-due as long as I live, and to show devotion to my mother. He has not made me insolent or arrogant. Peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die and the day I am raised up again alive."

This is the relief Allah provided Meryam in return for the trust she placed in Him.

mohmoh

11-12-2006, 07:41 AM

So far, I believe every one who participated in this dialogue has written what he/she wanted to write, and I believe that we are going in circles now. So, let everyone believe what he/she believes. If they feel themselves at peace in what they believe in, then let them do so. No one is forced to change his/her belief.

And in the day of Judgement we'll all be there, and then we'll know who was right and who was wrong.

D-man

11-12-2006, 10:50 AM

I've had something terrible happen and can no longer continue this discussion, I'm sorry.

I want to apologize to anyone on this thread or forum that has felt I have not been considerate, sensitive, or loving. I'm very sorry, and I'm not just saying that. These things have a way of making you look at life differently. If it weren't for the strength I get from Christ I could not stand.

Kindest regards.

CanadianChic

11-12-2006, 03:32 PM

My thoughts are with you D-Man, take care, :) CC

Mahboob Khan

11-12-2006, 03:51 PM

Rafa, it involves an extremely close family member, of a sensitive nature. Everything is going to be okay, but it is tough.

D-Man: If you cannot post here, send me an email. I am really worried about you and pray for the safety and well being of your family members. Talking about considerations, you have been very considerate. You are an exemplary Christian and your religion should be proud of you and you should be proud of your religion! But I am worried about you; please let me know.

nopiforyou

11-12-2006, 05:02 PM

I've mostly read each sides points so far (not all, but most) and I feel I have to say at least something right now.

D-Man, I really hope you feel better with the nature of your close family member. I hope Christ is indeed with you in this.

D-man

11-12-2006, 05:28 PM

ThePlungerMan

11-12-2006, 06:05 PM

Thank you nopiforyou, cc, and Mahboob, your concern touches my heart, especially over the internet where you don't even see the person. Thanks very much. Christ is with me, I can testify to that! I mean absolutely no offense in this, but if any pray, I please ask you to pray only to the Father through Jesus. I hope you understand and are not critical. You know I believe there is only one way to God, through Christ. Since I brought this up, I will tell you a very close member of my family attempted to kill himself because of debt I believe. I have not heard from him yet. I cannot post more, if you'd like you can email me. I must stop posting to divert my attention to these important matters, and to pray.
Just got back from playing tennis all day. I’m so sorry D-man. I went to a funeral two weeks ago for someone who succeeded. He was a great guy and no one saw it coming, but should have, including me. Good news he had Christ and all the sins he committed including his suicide are washed away because of the work he, Christ, did on The Cross. So alls well that ends well. You know God can make this tragedy a blessing and have it work for the good, for him, his family and all of us.
Good luck.

D-man

11-12-2006, 06:49 PM

Just got back from playing tennis all day. I’m so sorry D-man. I went to a funeral two weeks ago for someone who succeeded. He was a great guy and no one saw it coming, but should have, including me. Good news he had Christ and all the sins he committed including his suicide are washed away because of the work he, Christ, did on The Cross. So alls well that ends well. You know God can make this tragedy a blessing and have it work for the good, for him, his family and all of us.
Good luck.

Thank you Plunger, I really appreciate your taking the time to post. The strength of your faith has been a blessing to me. It was my brother and we have talked to him and he sounds okay, Praise God! He too has Christ, thank God. He just lost it temporarily, but the legal stuff we are believing God for a miracle! My condolences and thanksgiving for your friend. We always know we could have done more than we did.

Kaptain Karl

11-15-2006, 08:22 AM

Let's say by profession you are a NASA Engineer, and you rely on Engineering Manual written ten years ago. You receive a fresh updated version of the Engineering Manual. The Company asks you to discard the old Manual and in its place keep the new Manual for reference. Should you insist that you like to keep the old Manual because it is more authentic?Poor analogy. It is a principle of Christian faith that the Bible is complete. Engineering is dynamic.

The true religion brought by him remains today, albeit merely in name. That is because, the original teaching communicated by Jesus is distorted today.This has been demonstrated to be extremely unlikely. Yet you persist with the spurious claim....

Consequently today, it is unlikely that we can obtain true knowledge regarding Jesus from Christian sources.

The only sources from which we can have accurate knowledge about Jesus are the Qura'an, the book Allah assures He will keep unchanged until the Day of Judgment, and the Sunnah of His Messenger Muhammad.Maybe you'll recognize how wholly absurd this seems to a Christian ... if I turn it around. [This is just an example; not my belief.] If we were to say "The Qura'an, in today's form, is faked by Muslims. The only way to learn anything accurate about Islam is ask D-man, Plungerman or KK."

What would be your reaction? I submit that even though you couch your denigration of the Bible in pleasant words, what you are really doing is insulting the faith of Christians. (Something you protest you are NOT doing.)

Furthermore ... your claim that the Qura'an has not been changed in its substance is also spurious. What about the (commonly called) "Satanic verses?"

[For those who do not know, Muhammad orginally told the Meccans "One God only ... Allah." The Meccans ran him out of town. A few years later he returned and struck up an agreement that two (I think) of the Meccan gods were "daughters of Allah." The Meccans liked this compromise and agreed to allow Muhammed to preach his new religion. BUT ... Muhammed later recanted on his compromise and went back to insisting 'Only one God, Allah'. The Meccans wanted to lynch Muhammed for this breaking of the agreement. Muhammed fled to Medina, and from there his "empire" (Islam) grew.]

You using revisionist history if you claim constancy in the Qura'an, Mahboob.

- KK

mohmoh

11-15-2006, 09:48 AM

Furthermore ... your claim that the Qura'an has not been changed in its substance is also spurious. What about the (commonly called) "Satanic verses?"

[For those who do not know, Muhammad orginally told the Meccans "One God only ... Allah." The Meccans ran him out of town. A few years later her returned and struck up an agreement that two (I think) of the Meccan gods were "daughters of Allah." The Meccans liked this compromise and agreed to allow Muhammed to preach his new religion. BUT ... Muhammed later recanted on his compromise and went back to insisting 'Only one God, Allah'. The Meccans wanted to lynch Muhammed for this breaking of the agreement. Muhammed fled to Medina, and from there his "empire" (Islam) grew.]

You using revisionist history if you claim constancy in the Qura'an, Mahboob.

- KK

So, you quote someone who hates Islam and muslims with his lies and you believe in his words. You believe that 1.2 billion muslims are lying and this maniac is true.

This tells me how your thinking is so shallow and you have no logic in your claims. In some other thread, I quoted what some western scientists think of Islam, Quran & his prophet Mohammed after their scientific discoveries. But because you are so ignorant, you believe this ignorant and his lies while you ignore what those scientists believe about Islam.

Anyway, Islam has been fought since its first day of existence. It would never be affected by those who try to destroy its image. And the evidence is: Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, even after 9/11 and the huge propaganda that followed it by the western media.

Check this link to see how Islam is growing in America after 9/11:

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP30101

And if you don't believe this site, then check this candian site to see how Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. And for some, Christianity is declining while Islam is growing:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

Check this link to see why Christians are converting to Islam:

http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/

I really, advise you and others on this forum who just like to attack Islam, Quran, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) or muslims to go and read objectively about Islam, instead of coming here in vain trying to stereotype Islam and muslims arrogantly.

ThePlungerMan

11-15-2006, 01:38 PM

I really, advise you and others on this forum who just like to attack Islam, Quran, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) or muslims to go and read objectively about Islam, instead of coming here in vain trying to stereotype Islam and muslims arrogantly.
I already have a very clear understanding of Islam. It stole, twisted, bent and rearranged scripture from The Bible, used other Gospels not in The Bible,,,, written by a man who supposedly was listening to God, who wasn’t IMO.
There’s my view of Islam.
Matthew 22: 29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.
Mark 12:10
Haven't you read this scripture: " 'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ;

Kaptain Karl

11-15-2006, 03:59 PM

So, you quote someone who hates Islam and muslims with his lies and you believe in his words.Maybe you were not aware of it (I doubt this; I just believe you are pretending it isn't even true) but those verses of the Qura'an have been called "the Satanic verses" long before Rushdie wrote the book by that name.

(For those who are observing this debate, there are versus in the Qura'an where Muhammed explained the two gods who were "daughters of Allah." When Muhammed recanted on his poly-theistic compromise with the Meccans he claimed he was "tricked" by Satan into adding those verses. Hence, "Satanic verses.")

You believe that 1.2 billion muslims are lying and this maniac is true.1 - NWIP
2 - I don't believe 1.2 BB Muslims claim what you claim they do. (I don't believe you speak for them.)
3 - If "numbers" are so important we should all aspire to be ... cockroaches(!).

In some other thread, I quoted what some western scientists think of Islam, Quran & his prophet Mohammed after their scientific discoveries.Yes. I saw your list of "scholars and scientists." Most of them are complete strangers to me. Several of them are not "scientists" or "scholars" at all. Your list is laughable.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, even after 9/11 ...So what? I never claimed otherwise. (In fact, if you had asked, I would have agreed that Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion in the USA.) So what?

I really, advise you ... to go and read objectively about Islam, instead of coming here in vain trying to stereotype Islam and muslims arrogantly.mohmoh, the tone of your posts on here do more to support generally known stereotypes of Muslims ... than to refute them. Your posts have a real "nasty streak" in them.

Mahboob Khan and I have strongly disagreed on many points surrounding the differences in our faiths. But he and I have always "discussed" our differences with a civility I find lacking in your posts. I consider Mahboob a man of goodwill who is worthy of respect....

- KK

ThePlungerMan

11-15-2006, 05:01 PM

Thank you KK. And by the way did you read my posts (272-onwards) about Meryam (Mary) and Jesus (Isa). After you read them, I will post more. Next, "Miracles of Jesus Christ". I had stopped because I was discouraged.
I would like to see more of a reply than,,, thank you,,,,, and believe, more than a simple thank you is warranted. This since you backed up mohmoh when he was on a role a few days ago posting, which KK is debating. So you are in way connected to the rebuttals KK offered.

And I don’t care to read long drawn out stories about Jesus per a Muslim point of view, that directly conflicts with the Bible. But it’s your choice.
I’m not posting long stories about Jesus per The Bible. Nor is anyone else. If anyone on this board wants to know they will search.
My name is ThePlungerMan and I approve this message.

Mahboob Khan

11-15-2006, 05:32 PM

Poor analogy. It is a principle of Christian faith that the Bible is complete. Engineering is dynamic.

This has been demonstrated to be extremely unlikely. Yet you persist with the spurious claim....

Maybe you'll recognize how wholly absurd this seems to a Christian ... if I turn it around. [This is just an example; not my belief.] If we were to say "The Qura'an, in today's form, is faked by Muslims. The only way to learn anything accurate about Islam is ask D-man, Plungerman or KK."

What would be your reaction? I submit that even though you couch your denigration of the Bible in pleasant words, what you are really doing is insulting the faith of Christians. (Something you protest you are NOT doing.)

Furthermore ... your claim that the Qura'an has not been changed in its substance is also spurious. What about the (commonly called) "Satanic verses?"

[For those who do not know, Muhammad orginally told the Meccans "One God only ... Allah." The Meccans ran him out of town. A few years later he returned and struck up an agreement that two (I think) of the Meccan gods were "daughters of Allah." The Meccans liked this compromise and agreed to allow Muhammed to preach his new religion. BUT ... Muhammed later recanted on his compromise and went back to insisting 'Only one God, Allah'. The Meccans wanted to lynch Muhammed for this breaking of the agreement. Muhammed fled to Medina, and from there his "empire" (Islam) grew.]

You using revisionist history if you claim constancy in the Qura'an, Mahboob.

- KK

First of all let me tell you that I am really honored by your gentle ways of "disagreements". You have all the right to explain your side of the story. But I believe I will be insulting your religion if I fail to mention the Islamic/Quranic view of the True Religion of God. How about if Islamic view is right? You have the right to know our story. Sir, go back and read that beautiful story of Jesus Christ (posts 270-onwards). And it is quite a news for me that Muhammad struck a deal with Meccans on "two gods -- daughters of Allah". How can it be when we do not consider even Jesus as son of God or God Himself? Can you quote a verse from Al-Qura'an which says that Muhammad agreed to two gods (daughters of Allah)? Sir, even Al-Meryam who is the head of all women of the world, is not a daughter of Allah? Quite frankly, I have not read that SOB Salman Rushdie. I did not have the chance to. But I only surmise that he was just trying to please his western friends since he lives in U.K. And by the way, our Prophet, Messenger of Allah, Muhammad, had two phases of his life/Prophethood (the Meccan life, and the Madni life). In Mecca, he preached wherever he went, he was insulted, he was ridiculed, he was beaten; he had a miserable time there. In other words he was thoroughly tested by Allah. After his migration to Madina, Allah opened the gate of His Mercy and Al-Islam; and it was here that he was a ruler of the Islamic State, he was a Messenger, he was a prophet, he was a general, he was a statesman, he was a diplomat, he was a human being, he was a father, he was everything except Allah afterall "he was nothing but a Messenger .. Messengers like him had come and passed away before him" (Al-Qura'an).

Here is Islamic belief about Bible:

"Al-Qura'an attests that Bible WAS from Allah. However, the current Bible contains words of Allah, it also contains words of Jesus and other Prophets, but it also contains chapters written by humans (Mark, Mathew, Luke, and John)". Since it has been altered we do not practice Bible because we have the final Book Al-Qura'an.

If you look at the Bible, it says, "I am authored by four men". However, there is no mention that Al-Qura'an was authored by a man. Qura'an is from Allah, it was arranged in the form of a Book by Muhammad (peace be upon him). This is our belief. If you say that our belief is something else, it's your right to say it, but it is not going to change anything. I am sure you also know the difference between "writing" and "authoring". Al-Qura'an was revealed (authored) word by word by Allah, but of course written by "Katibeen e Wahi" -- the writers of the revealed message --. Muhammad did not write it because he did not know how to read and write. Muhammad would simply receive it from Gabriel, and then dictate it to the Writers!

ThePlungerMan

11-15-2006, 09:41 PM

Here’s a big red flag about Islam. The Bible is peppered big time from front to back about The Lord Jesus Christ as The Son of God and our Redeemer etc. For Islam to say they believe in The Bible yet not Jesus as stated. Well you do the math.

mohmoh

11-16-2006, 12:44 AM

Maybe you were not aware of it (I doubt this; I just believe you are pretending it isn't even true) but those verses of the Qura'an have been called "the Satanic verses" long before Rushdie wrote the book by that name.

(For those who are observing this debate, there are versus in the Qura'an where Muhammed explained the two gods who were "daughters of Allah." When Muhammed recanted on his poly-theistic compromise with the Meccans he claimed he was "tricked" by Satan into adding those verses. Hence, "Satanic verses.")

And if I tell you that this is a big lie, would you believe me? Everyone knows that Islam is against the idea of associating any partner, son or daughters with God (Allah). So from where did you come up with these big lies? At least tell us where in Quran you found these versus.

Yes. I saw your list of "scholars and scientists." Most of them are complete strangers to me. Several of them are not "scientists" or "scholars" at all. Your list is laughable

And your rushdi is more laughable.

So what? I never claimed otherwise. (In fact, if you had asked, I would have agreed that Islam is indeed the fastest growing religion in the USA.) So what?

A proof that Islam spreads without force as many none-muslims claim. It spreads when people search for logic and common sense. And this what I said in previous posts.

I mean this:
- if you spend the whoe day telling me that Quran was false, it's a human- made myth, and so on, I will never believe it.

- And on the other hand, if I spend the whole day telling you that Jesus is not God or the son of God, then I'm sure that you will not believe me.

- So, let's try to look for logic and common sense.

mohmoh, the tone of your posts on here do more to support generally known stereotypes of Muslims ... than to refute them. Your posts have a real "nasty streak" in them.

I don't know what tone you're talking about. What do you mean by "nasty streak"? You claim somethings which are not true about Islam, Quran or Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and I reply back, what's wrong with this? Every one is doing the same here.

Kaptain Karl

11-16-2006, 07:48 AM

[Sorry, everybody. I'm not able to check-in here that regularly. I'm working on one of the biggest proposals yet for my company. I'm "just a bit" preoccupied....]

Sir, go back and read that beautiful story of Jesus Christ (posts 270-onwards).I did read it. I found it interesting that the Qura'an (or Islam) ...
a) [Diminishes Jesus Christ from being part of the Godhead, to a mere prophet
b) Elevates Mary's stature to the level it does
c) Follows the Bible pretty closely in some areas
d) Greatly deviates from the Bible frequently
e) (Even in English) is a very poetic read

And it is quite a news for me that Muhammad struck a deal with Meccans on "two gods -- daughters of Allah". ... Can you quote a verse from Al-Qura'an which says that Muhammad agreed to two gods (daughters of Allah)?I didn't mean to say the "compromise" was in the Qura'an. But the reference is found in the following, taken from this post (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=738586&postcount=191) of mine from an older thread. See B, 3-5 for my best answer to your question. (Oh. And note it was three idols/daughters; not two.)

B.) Islam is established
1. Meccans were incensed at Mohammed for heresy against their gods. (The Meccans were going to -- at the very least -- run him out of town.)
2. M. fled to Ethiopia with his (roughly 15) followers (AD 617)
3. “Islam” grew to about 70. M. returned to Mecca & compromised over the "one god" thing.
4. Mohammed called 3 idols daughters of Allah [Sura 53:19,20] (Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca.

Here is Islamic belief about Bible:

... Al-Qura'an attests that Bible WAS from Allah.There, begins the differences between our faiths. We Christians still say the Bible IS from God.

If you look at the Bible, it says, "I am authored by four men".No it doesn't.

The following appears to be a logical inconsistency from you, Mahboob:
(1) However, there is no mention that Al-Qura'an was authored by a man.
(2)Qura'an is from Allah, it was arranged in the form of a Book by Muhammad (peace be upon him).How can you discount Christianity's claim that the Bible is "God-breathed" though several men put God's meaning on paper ... but you insist that your faith is allowed to say the Qura'an is from Allah and arranged into a book by an illiterate man?

<edit> My point is, you seem to think the Christian belief about the "publishing" of the Bible is silly ... yet our story isn't all that different (in terms of believability / credibility) from the claims of Islam about the "publishing" of the Qura'an.... </edit>

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-16-2006, 09:16 AM

[Sorry, everybody. I'm not able to check-in here that regularly. I'm working on one of the biggest proposals yet for my company. I'm "just a bit" preoccupied....]

I did read it. I found it interesting that the Qura'an (or Islam) ...
a) [Diminishes Jesus Christ from being part of the Godhead, to a mere prophet
b) Elevates Mary's stature to the level it does
c) Follows the Bible pretty closely in some areas
d) Greatly deviates from the Bible frequently
e) (Even in English) is a very poetic read

I didn't mean to say the "compromise" was in the Qura'an. But the reference is found in the following, taken from this post (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=738586&postcount=191) of mine from an older thread. See B, 3-5 for my best answer to your question. (Oh. And note it was three idols/daughters; not two.)

B.) Islam is established
1. Meccans were incensed at Mohammed for heresy against their gods. (The Meccans were going to -- at the very least -- run him out of town.)
2. M. fled to Ethiopia with his (roughly 15) followers (AD 617)
3. “Islam” grew to about 70. M. returned to Mecca & compromised over the "one god" thing.
4. Mohammed called 3 idols daughters of Allah [Sura 53:19,20] (Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca.

There, begins the differences between our faiths. We Christians still say the Bible IS from God.

No it doesn't.

The following appears to be a logical inconsistency from you, Mahboob:
How can you discount Christianity's claim that the Bible is "God-breathed" though several men put God's meaning on paper ... but you insist that your faith is allowed to say the Qura'an is from Allah and arranged into a book by an illiterate man?

<edit> My point is, you seem to think the Christian belief about the "publishing" of the Bible is silly ... yet our story isn't all that different (in terms of believability / credibility) from the claims of Islam about the "publishing" of the Qura'an.... </edit>

- KK

I think you got me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the publishing of the Qura'an or the Holy Bible. Of course, they need to be published and distributed. What Islam is saying that the OT and NT were indeed from Allah and Al-Qura'an attests that fact, but say at the same time because the Bible was greatly revised/modified/changed to the point that some major events, some major commandments got altered and/or degenerated over time. In one of my posts I had proved this from the Bible:

In the OT, it is mentioned that Ismail was older than Isaac by 14 years, it also mentions that Ismail was indeed son of Abraham from Hajra (Haeger). Bible says, "When Ismail was born, Abraham was 86 years old". "When Isaac was born, Abraham was 100 years old". So, it is very clear that Ismail was older than Isaac by 14 years. It is also a well known fact that upon Sara's request, Abraham took the mother of Ismail and Ismail away to Mecca area where they (Abraham and Ismail) later raised the foundations of "Ka'aba" the House of Lord in Mecca. Abraham knew very well the location of his second wife Hajra and his only son, Ismail (yes, Ismail was the only son because Isaac was not born yet). Yet, in the OT it is mentioned, "One day Lord God wanted to test Abraham. He asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac". Now, my question to you is this, "In the presence of an elder brother (when the younger brother is not born yet), the younger unborn brother does not become ONLY". Obviously, "Ismail" was replaced with "Isaac". Go ahead, see for yourself.

Our belief is that Bible is not found in its original form and texture, thus we follow Al-Qura'an because we believe that our Book is intact. Allah Himself undertook to be its guarantor/protector!

I am happy that you found the Quranic version of Jesus interesting. Yes, if you would read it in Arabic you will appreciate it even more.

Again, where there is no change, both Qura'an and Bible's versions are similar. However, where Bible's original text has been changed by men, Qura'an sets it right.

kevhen

11-16-2006, 12:31 PM

Both Bible and Qura'an were written by men. God's laws don't need to be written down.

mohmoh

11-16-2006, 12:37 PM

(Remember a recent book?)
5. Meccans nearly murdered Mohammed for retracting compromise. Mohammed claimed Satan deceived him into agreement. (After, the abrogated verses were known as the “Satanic Verses.”) The Meccans ran him out of town ... again.
6. After “Flight II” M. based in Medina, on northern trade route from Mecca-

KK

Please allow me to jump in a little.

There is some wrong info here:

No 2. Mohammed (PBUH) did not flee to Ethiopia, but he sent some of his companions there (70), because at that time, Ethiopia was ruled by a very good Christian ruler who would treat them nicely. They lived there peacefully for many years until Islam was well established in Medinah.

No 4. In versus (19,20) of Sura (53) Allah is questioining the meccans how they could worship those stones to whome they gave some names, and how they could pretend that they had the male stone and he (Allah) had the female stone. You can check any English translation of Quran and read it yourself to see that what you mentioned in your post is wrong.

No. 5. This is totally wrong. Mohammed never claimed that he got deceived by satan. Meccans nearly killed him while he was migrating to Medina, but Allah protected him. (long story, if inerested I can type it) and he was able to migrate to Medina, unharmed, with his closest friend Abu Baker.

No.6. I don't understand it.

kevhen

11-16-2006, 12:57 PM

So what does Mohammed tell us that we should do?

mohmoh

11-16-2006, 01:15 PM

So what does Mohammed tell us that we should do?

The basic belief:

1. Believe in God (Allah) (the Creator) and don't associate any thing with him. No son, no daughter, no partner.
2. Believe in his Angels
3. Believe in all of his Prophets (PBUT).
4. Believe in his books (Quran, Bible, Torah, and others)
5. Believe in the Day of Judgement.

The 5 major pillers of Islam:

1. Believe that there no God but Allah, the Creator and that Mohammed is the Prophet of Allah.
2. Pray 5 times aday.
3. Fast the month of Ramadan
4. Pay a portion of you money to the needy.
5. And if you can, go to Hajj to Mecca once in your life.

And other good deeds, like treating your parents nicely, treating others nicely, and avoiding big sins like:killing the innocents, eating the rights of others, commiting adultry and others.

kevhen

11-16-2006, 01:29 PM

So you can associate angels with Allah but nothing else? Who are his prophets? What does the Quran say about the Day of Judgement?

When do you pray each day and for how long? What do you pray about?

Does it say not to kill innocents in the Quran? Do you associate virgins with Allah or where does that come from since we hear suicide bombers die in the belief that they will be joined by 76 virgins in heaven?

mohmoh

11-16-2006, 02:40 PM

So you can associate angels with Allah but nothing else??

Angels are just creatures of Allah. We can not see them, but there are many of them. Some of them just worshop Allah, some of them execute his orders. Like the Angel Auzrael whose job is to pull the soul of humans during death. Another Angel is Gubrael, who was the messenger between Allah and his prophets. They never commit any sin. We were told about them in Quran and by the Prophet.

Who are his prophets?

There were many Prophets, we were only told about 25 of them in the Quran. The first one was Adam, Idris, Noah, Hud, Saleh, Abraham,Lut, Ismael, Isaec, Jaecub, Juseph, Ilias, Alyasii, Thulkufel, David, Suleyman, Ayyub, Yunus, Shuayb, Moses, Harun, Zakerias, Yahya, Jesus and Mohammed (PBUT).

Five of them were pointed out for having more challenge than others: Noah (lived around 1000 years), Abraham (the father of all Prophets after him), Moses (who saved Jews from the aggression of Pheronis in Eygpt), Jesus( the son of Maria) and Mohammed (the last Prophet).

What does the Quran say about the Day of Judgement?

Only Allah knows the time of this day. But when it comes, everything will die, humans, animals, Jins, Angels. Only he will stay alive. The earth will be changed and replaced with a clean earth with no sin commited on it. And then, Allah will order every living thing to relive in order to be judged for their beliefs and their deeds. Those whose good deeds surpass his bad deeds will go to Heaven and those whose bad deeds surpass his good deeds may go to hell. Ofcourse, we believe that Allah is Mercifull and he may forgive any sin, except the association of any partner with him. Even animals will be judged among themselves. Quran mentions that that day's length will be about 50000 years.

When do you pray each day and for how long?

1 prayer before sunrise. (2 stands (I don't know its meaning in English), around 5 minutes)
1 prayer at noon. (4 stands, around 10 minutes)
1 prayer at mid afternoon. (4 stands, around 10 minutes)
1 prayer after sunset. (3 stands, around 7 minutes)
1 prayer after darkness (4 stands, around 10 minutes)

What do you pray about?

We face the direction of Mecca during prayers. We read some short versus from Quran, and some prayers to Allah.

Does it say not to kill innocents in the Quran?

Killing innocents is among the big sins in Islam and it is mentioned in many locations in Quran.

Do you associate virgins with Allah or where does that come from since we hear suicide bombers die in the belief that they will be joined by 76 virgins in heaven?

Anyone who goes to Paradise or Heaven will have virgins and many other big houses there. And those who commit suicide just to kill themselves for personal reasons are as guilty as killing other innocents. But those who commit suicide to kill other innocent people again will be punished. As for commiting suicide to kill your enemy during war then it is good and it may lead you to Heaven.

ThePlungerMan

11-16-2006, 03:03 PM

I think you got me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the publishing of the Qura'an or the Holy Bible. Of course, they need to be published and distributed. What Islam is saying that the OT and NT were indeed from Allah and Al-Qura'an attests that fact, but say at the same time because the Bible was greatly revised/modified/changed to the point that some major events, some major commandments got altered and/or degenerated over time. In one of my posts I had proved this from the Bible:
You did not prove anything. Your going on the assumption that what you have been taught since the first day you could learn is true. And what you have learned is a bunch of phooey IMO

Anyone who goes to Paradise or Heaven will have virgins and many other big houses there. And those who commit suicide just to kill themselves for personal reasons are as guilty as killing other innocents. But those who commit suicide to kill other innocent people again will be punished. As for commiting suicide to kill your enemy during war then it is good and it may lead you to Heaven.
Sounds like a great way to get people to blow themselves and others up.

Kaptain Karl

11-16-2006, 03:24 PM

I think you got me wrong. There is nothing wrong with the publishing of the Qura'an or the Holy Bible. Of course, they need to be published and distributed.(I was afraid my "publishing" would not be comprehended the way I meant it. The reason I put "publishing" in quotes is the discussion on "Who wrote it?" can be confusing ... for both sacred books.

We Christians are frequently guilty of using "Christian-ese" to describe our faith to non-Christians. (Kinda like making someone learn tennis by starting-off speaking in "tennis jargon"....)

We say the Bible is inspired by God. In the Greek this means "God-breathed." Some Christians will say "God authored the Bible ... and several men wrote it down." Some say the Holy Spirit (part of the triune God) influenced the writers in what things to write about ... but the writers used their own words to do it.

I thought I was (cleverly) getting around the "Christian-speak" problem by writing about "publishing". (Oh well. I tried....) I didn't really mean publishing, in the strict sense of the word. Maybe I should have posted "produced"?

What Islam is saying that the OT and NT were indeed from Allah and Al-Qura'an attests that fact, but say at the same time because the Bible was greatly revised/modified/changed to the point that some major events, some major commandments got altered and/or degenerated over time.Wow. In one sentence of yours we both agree ... and disagree. We agree in green; we disagree in purple.

In the OT, it is mentioned that Ismail was older than Isaac by 14 years ...Yes.
It is also a well known fact that upon Sara's request, Abraham took the mother of Ismail and Ismail away to Mecca area where they (Abraham and Ismail) later raised the foundations of "Ka'aba" the House of Lord in Mecca.I'm not sure where (what?) "Ka'aba" is, but your rendering is only somewhat close to that of the Bible (with some pretty *key* differences to the Qura'an). Here's where we start to split on whose descendants receive the Covenant....

(From the Bible: Genesis 17 -- emphasis mine) God said to Abraham, "I will change the name of Sarai, your wife, to Sarah. I will bless her and give her a son, and you will be the father. She will be the mother of many nations. Kings of nations will come from her." Abraham bowed facedown on the ground and laughed. He said to himself, "Can a man have a child when he is a hundred years old? Can Sarah give birth to a child when she is ninety?" Then Abraham said to God, "Please let Ishmael be the son you promised." God said, "No, Sarah your wife will have a son, and you will name him Isaac. I will make my agreement with him to be an agreement that continues forever with all his descendants. "As for Ishmael, I have heard you. I will bless him and give him many descendants. And I will cause their numbers to grow greatly. He will be the father of twelve great leaders, and I will make him into a great nation. But I will make my agreement with Isaac, the son whom Sarah will have at this same time next year."

(Jumping ahead to Genesis 21) Isaac grew, and when he became old enough to eat food, Abraham gave a great feast. But Sarah saw Ishmael making fun of Isaac. (Ishmael was the son of Abraham by Hagar, Sarah's Egyptian slave.) So Sarah said to Abraham, "Throw out this slave woman and her son. Her son should not inherit anything; my son Isaac should receive it all." This troubled Abraham very much because Ishmael was also his son. But God said to Abraham, "Don't be troubled about the boy and the slave woman. Do whatever Sarah tells you. The descendants I promised you will be from Isaac. I will also make the descendants of Ishmael into a great nation because he is your son, too."

Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a leather bag full of water. He gave them to Hagar and sent her away. Carrying these things and her son, Hagar went and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. ... God was with the boy as he grew up. Ishmael lived in the desert and became an archer. He lived in the Desert of Paran, and his mother found a wife for him in Egypt.

Abraham knew very well the location of his second wife Hajra and his only son, Ismail (yes, Ismail was the only son because Isaac was not born yet).Whoops! Our two histories have clearly gone awry. By the time Hagar and Ishmael were sent away, Isaac was already at least three years of age, according to the Bible.

Yet, in the OT it is mentioned, "One day Lord God wanted to test Abraham. He asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac". Now, my question to you is this, "In the presence of an elder brother (when the younger brother is not born yet), the younger unborn brother does not become ONLY".Bzzzt! Error.

Obviously, "Ismail" was replaced with "Isaac". Go ahead, see for yourself.What I have posted here is from the Bible. I did "see for myself." This certainly illuminates a critical difference between our faiths, doesn't it? From our perspective, the Qura'an has "shuffled" some historical events ... as well as simply changed others "whole cloth...."

I am happy that you found the Quranic version of Jesus interesting. Yes, if you would read it in Arabic you will appreciate it even more.I've heard this a lot. But I'm not about to try and learn Arabic. I have enough trouble with English and Spanish....

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-16-2006, 06:54 PM

Great post, KK. I have reasons to believe that you do not lie, and I have reasons to believe that I do not lie. We both are reiterating our stands as we see in our respective Books. You quoted the verses from the OT and I am aware of those verses in the OT! But, KK, Qura'an does make sense!!!

Again, as I said, since Bible and Qura'an are from the same Source, there are similarities -- similarities not affected by men. However, to create new "detours" in the eligion which was supposed to be ONE, consistent, and constant, people with vested interests changed many teachings in the Bible and with that some important events also got changed. Now, you say, "we changed these in Al-Qura'an", and we say, "you changed these in your Bible". This is something we will never agree on till the day of Judgment. Yes, with the second coming of Jesus on this earth, these differences will also be removed, that's why Jesus has been dubbed in Qura'an as "the Sign of the Hour". Let's wait and see!

Mahboob Khan

11-16-2006, 07:01 PM

KK. Would you please be kind enough to quote the verses from OT that deals with the Sacrifice (Abraham sacrificing Isaac). When we moved in to our new house in 2004, my OT King James Version and Good News Bible got packed in some suitcase and haven't found them yet, and my wife does not help me.

Thanks.

Kaptain Karl

11-16-2006, 10:13 PM

... Yes, with the second coming of Jesus on this earth, these differences will also be removed, that's why Jesus has been dubbed in Qura'an as "the Sign of the Hour". Let's wait and see!I look forward to it!

KK. Would you please be kind enough to quote the verses from OT that deals with the Sacrifice (Abraham sacrificing Isaac).Surely. They're in Genesis 22.

1 After these things God tested Abraham's faith. God said to him, "Abraham!" And he answered, "Here I am." 2 Then God said, "Take your only son, Isaac, the son you love, and go to the land of Moriah. Kill him there and offer him as a whole burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Abraham got up early in the morning and saddled his donkey. He took Isaac and two servants with him. After he cut the wood for the sacrifice, they went to the place God had told them to go. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey. My son and I will go over there and worship, and then we will come back to you." 6 Abraham took the wood for the sacrifice and gave it to his son to carry, but he himself took the knife and the fire. So he and his son went on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, "Father!" Abraham answered, "Yes, my son." Isaac said, "We have the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb we will burn as a sacrifice?" 8 Abraham answered, "God will give us the lamb for the sacrifice, my son." So Abraham and his son went on together 9 and came to the place God had told him about. Abraham built an altar there. He laid the wood on it and then tied up his son Isaac and laid him on the wood on the altar. 10 Then Abraham took his knife and was about to kill his son.

11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham! Abraham!" Abraham answered, "Yes." 12 The angel said, "Don't kill your son or hurt him in any way. Now I can see that you trust God and that you have not kept your son, your only son, from me." 13 Then Abraham looked up and saw a male sheep caught in a bush by its horns. So Abraham went and took the sheep and killed it. He offered it as a whole burnt offering to God, and his son was saved. 14 So Abraham named that place The Lord Provides. Even today people say, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."

15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "The Lord says, 'Because you did not keep back your son, your only son, from me, I make you this promise by my own name: 17 I will surely bless you and give you many descendants. They will be as many as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, and they will capture the cities of their enemies. 18 Through your descendants all the nations on the earth will be blessed, because you obeyed me.'"

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-17-2006, 09:06 AM

I look forward to it!

Surely. They're in Genesis 22.

1 After these things God tested Abraham's faith. God said to him, "Abraham!" And he answered, "Here I am." 2 Then God said, "Take your only son, Isaac, the son you love, and go to the land of Moriah. Kill him there and offer him as a whole burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about."

3 Abraham got up early in the morning and saddled his donkey. He took Isaac and two servants with him. After he cut the wood for the sacrifice, they went to the place God had told them to go. 4 On the third day Abraham looked up and saw the place in the distance. 5 He said to his servants, "Stay here with the donkey. My son and I will go over there and worship, and then we will come back to you." 6 Abraham took the wood for the sacrifice and gave it to his son to carry, but he himself took the knife and the fire. So he and his son went on together. 7 Isaac said to his father Abraham, "Father!" Abraham answered, "Yes, my son." Isaac said, "We have the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb we will burn as a sacrifice?" 8 Abraham answered, "God will give us the lamb for the sacrifice, my son." So Abraham and his son went on together 9 and came to the place God had told him about. Abraham built an altar there. He laid the wood on it and then tied up his son Isaac and laid him on the wood on the altar. 10 Then Abraham took his knife and was about to kill his son.

11 But the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham! Abraham!" Abraham answered, "Yes." 12 The angel said, "Don't kill your son or hurt him in any way. Now I can see that you trust God and that you have not kept your son, your only son, from me." 13 Then Abraham looked up and saw a male sheep caught in a bush by its horns. So Abraham went and took the sheep and killed it. He offered it as a whole burnt offering to God, and his son was saved. 14 So Abraham named that place The Lord Provides. Even today people say, "On the mountain of the Lord it will be provided."

15 The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time 16 and said, "The Lord says, 'Because you did not keep back your son, your only son, from me, I make you this promise by my own name: 17 I will surely bless you and give you many descendants. They will be as many as the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore, and they will capture the cities of their enemies. 18 Through your descendants all the nations on the earth will be blessed, because you obeyed me.'"

- KK

Then God said, "Take your only son, Isaac, the son you love, and go to the land of Moriah. Kill him there and offer him as a whole burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about".

God is saying, "Take your only son, Isaac, the son you love, and go to the land of Moriah. Kill him there and offer him as a whole burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about".

Through the OT it is clear:

-- That Ismail was older than Isaac by 14 years

-- When Lord God gives the tidings of another son, Isaac, both Abraham and his wife, Sarah, could not believe it because they thought that they both were old to produce another son. In fact, Abraham told God, that he already had a son, Ismail (maybe to him another son was not that important).

-- When Sarah told Abraham to take away Hajra and her son, Ismail, Abraham was quite sad, but Allah told him, "Listen to Sarah and do what she tells you to do".

-- It is quite clear through OT and also through Qura'an that Abraham loved Ismail.

And more importantly from the God's commandment, "take your ONLY son, Isaac, the SON YOU LOVE", it is clear that at the time of sacrifice Abraham had ONLY ONE son and that could only be Ismail because he was older than Isaac. In Quranic verse that I already quoted here, it was only after Abraham's sacrifice was accepted, Allah gave Abraham another son namely Ishaque (Isaac).

May Allah show us the Light!

Kaptain Karl

11-17-2006, 04:29 PM

Through the OT it is clear:

-- That Ismail was older than Isaac by 14 yearsYes.

-- When Lord God gives the tidings of another son, Isaac, both Abraham and his wife, Sarah, could not believe it because they thought that they both were old to produce another son. In fact, Abraham told God, that he already had a son, Ismail (maybe to him another son was not that important).Yes. Abraham (a) for at least some time forgot God was all-powerful and could make Sarah fertile again, so the "son of the promise" could be born and (b) suggested God just fulfill the promise through Ishmael, who was Abraham's son from Hagar. God insisted His way was the right way....

-- When Sarah told Abraham to take away Hajra and her son, Ismail, Abraham was quite sad, but Allah told him, "Listen to Sarah and do what she tells you to do".

-- It is quite clear through OT and also through Qura'an that Abraham loved Ismail.Yes. Yes.

And more importantly from the God's commandment, "take your ONLY son, Isaac, the SON YOU LOVE", it is clear that at the time of sacrifice Abraham had ONLY ONE son and that could only be Ismail because he was older than Isaac.No. I'll give you two explanations for the confusion ... and I'll address them in "reverse". IOW, I'll build from the weaker -- to the stronger -- interpretation:

a) Since Ishmael has already been sent away (more literally in the Hebrew, "cast out") it was as if he did not exist. This "left" Isaac only.

b) The syntax of the Hebrew shows Isaac to be clearly specified. (The English translation loses that clarity a bit.) The following is closer to how the English would read ... if it were carrying the full meaning of the Hebrew:

"Take your son, your only one, whom you love, even Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and there kill him, causing him to ascend to Me in a burnt-offering ..."

That "even Isaac" phrase is absent in many English translations.

In Quranic verse that I already quoted here, it was only after Abraham's sacrifice was accepted, Allah gave Abraham another son namely Ishaque (Isaac).Obviously, one of our sacred books is "off" from what really happened....

May Allah show us the Light!Indeed, and Amen!

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-17-2006, 05:17 PM

Kaptain Karl expressed his views through his sacred Books, and I expressed my views through our sacred Book (Books if I include OT and NT as well). I respect KK's interpretation; I do respect.

My only comments are: Let's say you have two sons and God knows also that you have two sons. Their names are Muhammad and Ahmad. Now for some reasons Muhammad has been cast out and sent away, will you claim that Ahmad is your only son?

In Abraham's case, Ismail was sent away because it was the intention of Allah to start a Nation from Ismail .. a Nation of Islam which will follow the Relgiion of Allah, the religion of Abraham .. a Nation of Islam which will believe in One Allah, His Angels, His Prophets/Messengers, His Books, and Day of Judgment through a Messenger descendant of Ismail son of Abraham brother of Isaac; and through this Final Messenger and through Allah's Final Book past misunderstandings, miscommunications, miswritings, mistrust, misdeeds, have been cleared; Nation of Islam which will uphold Allah's religion -- a religion earlier people failed to uphold.

KK. I am honoured by your writings here, I respect your Faith, I respect your Bible, but you have the right to share our story as well.

Look, we believe in Isaac as one of the greatest Prophet of Allah. He is the son of Abraham, son of Sarah (my daughter's name is Sarah), and IF Allah accepted Isaac sacrifice we will be equally happy for we "do not differentiate between prophets". They all are from Allah preaching just one True Religion -- the Religion of Allah.

You may know that the ritual of Hajj existed prior to Muhammad. Yes, with Muhammad, under Allah's instructions, the Annual Hajj was cleared of idols, and proper procedures of worship were established. Al-Qura'an is very clear about Hajj. It's the fulfillment of Abraham's test when he sacrificed his ONLY SON, Ismail, and Allah mandated for the followers of Abraham to perform at least one Hajj resources permitting. If we cannot go to Mecca, then we sacrifice a goat here. And, KK, since we "stayed the course" we are the true followers of Abraham! This is our belief!

May God, May our Lord God, May Our Allah, bless us all.

courtrage

11-19-2006, 05:24 PM

http://geocities.com/baher02/rose.jpg

my question is, how is it possible an illiterate man 1400 years ago could describe this thing in space in the quran...

heres a link thats in the pic to the nasa site... http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html

TennisBatman

11-21-2006, 09:55 PM

Yeah, I'd say Muslim God and Christian God are the same, and I'd even go as far as saying Polytheism God is the same as well, or even Atheism God.

The key difference is not in God per se, but rather how the individual refers to God. Many people do not believe in God at all. Does this mean God is any different? No. The difference exists solely in the individual's mind, and his attitude toward God, and belief/disbelief in God.

Different religions are important, however, because they offer people different perspectives to regard the same God, even if that perspective invoves casting God as a Polytheism God or an Atheism God.

ThePlungerMan

11-21-2006, 10:44 PM

The key difference is not in God per se
Sorta right,,,,,
but rather how the individual refers to God.
and, yes if you refer to, ‘and’ accept Jesus Christ The Lord as our Savior then your fine, if not then you are referring to a God that doesn’t exist. This per the Bible, ‘and’ not the Quran.
SO your first comment
Yeah, I'd say Muslim God and Christian God are the same,
Doesn’t make sense.

TennisBatman

11-22-2006, 01:06 AM

Sorta right,,,,,

and, yes if you refer to, ‘and’ accept Jesus Christ The Lord as our Savior then your fine, if not then you are referring to a God that doesn’t exist. This per the Bible, ‘and’ not the Quran.
SO your first comment

Doesn’t make sense.

Let me clarify myself.

Muslims and Christians "refer to" the same God. By "refer to", I mean "worship" in religious terms. Why is this so? God is the object of worship, but God is no different across different forms of worship such as Islam and Christianity.

The only difference is the manner of worship, and the manner of worship does not in any way change the nature of God.

The same applies to Atheists who "refer to" God as non-existent. Their manner of referring to God is to claim that God is non-existent.

Same principle applies here, God is no different, but the manner of referring to God is different.

ThePlungerMan

11-22-2006, 10:41 AM

Let me clarify myself.

Muslims and Christians "refer to" the same God. By "refer to", I mean "worship" in religious terms. Why is this so? God is the object of worship, but God is no different across different forms of worship such as Islam and Christianity.

The only difference is the manner of worship, and the manner of worship does not in any way change the nature of God.

The same applies to Atheists who "refer to" God as non-existent. Their manner of referring to God is to claim that God is non-existent.

Same principle applies here, God is no different, but the manner of referring to God is different.
This is secular,,, new age,,, pop culture,,, philosophical,,,, mumbo jumbo.

TennisBatman

11-22-2006, 10:57 AM

Another step further...

Regardless of whether God is mono-existent, poly-existent, or non-existent,
the only thing for sure is that God has a Nature. By Nature, I mean all of the characteristics of God combined.

There are two types of Nature involved: Actual Nature and Perceived Nature.
God's Actual Nature is the same no matter who is "referring to" God, or "worshipping" God. This is because God's Actual Nature does not depend on how God is worshipped.

God's Perceived Nature is different for every individual referring to God.
"Perceived Nature" is an individual's estimation of the "Actual Nature" of God.
Religion has the effect of making it easier for practitioners of that religion to have a similar or identical Perceived Nature of God. Together, as a group, their collective Perceived Nature form a projection of the Actual Nature of God, based on their own revelations and any holy writings specific to the religion. The holy writings themselves only serve to improve the accurateness of the projection, but do not guarantee that an individual's Perceived Nature is the same as the Actual Nature of God.

It can be guaranteed that God has a Nature, but whether that Nature entails mono-existence, poly-existence, or non-existence, is only known by God alone, if at all. Humans can have a perception of God, based on their own revelations and/or religion, but this strictly confined to the Perceived Nature of God, either of themselves or collectively involving members of the same religion.

ThePlungerMan

11-22-2006, 12:35 PM

TennisBatman

11-22-2006, 07:18 PM

With all due respect,,, this is still,, secular,,, new age,,, pop culture,,, philosophical,,,, mumbo jumbo.

Hello, hello.

What is it about my ramblings that ticks you off? The capital letters for the terms I used?

I only capitalized the letters to make it easier to remember the terms, for your information.

ThePlungerMan

11-22-2006, 10:45 PM

Hello, hello.

What is it about my ramblings that ticks you off? The capital letters for the terms I used?

I only capitalized the letters to make it easier to remember the terms, for your information.

Hi TB. I wasn’t ticked.
I started off ,,with all due respect,,, so you wouldn’t think that. So sorry if I came off snippy. But I still maintain my initial thoughts, even though your statement may have philosophical correctness to it, per say that is. I still think it’s man leaning to his own understanding, Which isn’t a good thing if your like me, one who believes in Christ Jesus and the work He did on the cross.

ThePlungerMan

11-23-2006, 01:29 PM

Sorry, I'm just trying to help you out of a "sinkhole". I realize that you're getting flamed in this thread, but I want to avoid participating in the flaming.

You know, maybe, God can be represented with a Nature that can accommodate both Christian and Muslim religions, as well as Polytheist and Atheist religions.

God's Actual Nature is independent of individual manner of worship, whereas God's Perceived Nature is dependent on the manner of worship. Both kinds of Nature describe the actual/perceived characteristics of God, such as whether God is poly-, mono-, or non- existent, and the level of omnicience/omnipotence, if any, of God.

Thanks. I have lots of experience in digging holes for myself. And sometimes do it on purpose. Though my track record for climbing out to safe ground is very good. But that only happens with those that play fair. But when they take their marbles and go home, well then have I really lost the argument. I say no. Oh yeah, they’ll hide behind your not worth my time you less than me person. In my book, if your going slam, stay to the end. Or else your just a coward.

Thanks for your insight. In the Bible it’s all about Jesus, and your point is lost on me as it doesn’t ring equal to it or Him.

PM - Slamming somebody won't win you many disciples + didn't Jesus warn of calling someone a *Fool* - read your Bible son..
Slamming? I beg to differ. But definitely not Christ like, That’s what the secular world does to believers in Christ, they expect/assume us to behave on a higher level than those like, well you get the pic. Or assume were hypocrites when we fail. That is ignorance. Why? Because those that accuse haven’t a clue what it says in the Bible about sin etc. We all do. But like I said this is good practice.
I didn’t call him a fool. What I said, is in the Bible…. Those who reject Jesus will in the end,,,, be fools.
Read my Bible ‘’son’’ you said. Good advice and thanks for the son part, makes me feel all warm and fussy, like you care,,,, wait was …..
Just curious BG,,, are you riding the slam train yourself?

Mahboob Khan

11-23-2006, 05:24 PM

The Christian God and prophet Jesus died and came back to life, the Muslim prophet Muhammad died and guess what... he's still dead...

Son, read my posts from 270-onwards. I was able to quote some verses out of Al-Qura'an regarding the story of Jesus Christ.

Can you, or KK, or D-Man, or Mr. Plungerman, quote a clear verse from the Bible where Jesus has clearly .. very clearly said, "I am God, worship me"?

ThePlungerMan

11-23-2006, 06:57 PM

Can you, or KK, or D-Man, or Mr. Plungerman, quote a clear verse from the Bible where Jesus has clearly .. very clearly said, "I am God, worship me"?
John 14- 6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Kaptain Karl

11-24-2006, 09:36 AM

I haven't had time to keep up with this thread ... and I am not going to be all that "regular" for at least a few more days....

In Islam the greatest blasphemy is to ascribe partners with Allah. This is the greatest sin. Picking partners with Allah.What you call "ascribing partners" is a ... distortion ... of the concept of the Trinity. I'm not sure what you mean by that phrase, but I've explained the trinity as best I could -- pages ago -- in this very thread. (And you, Mahboob, thanked me for the explanation and indicated I had helped you understand. But you have "cycled back" to this "ascribing partners" argument ... as if I never explained the trinity to you just two or three weeks ago.)

Curious....

- KK

Kaptain Karl

11-24-2006, 10:41 AM

Last night, Dr. Zakir Naik, won a debate against a Christian Scholar. He proved through Bible ..
-- But [Jesus Christ] did not die on the cross. <snip>
-- Since he did not die on the cross, there was no resurrection.
-- Since there was no crucifixion, there was no resurrection;
-- Since there was no resurrection, there is no Christianity as a religion!I don't know who the so-called "Christian Scholar" was (I'm guessing he was a shill.) but *I* could win that debate against your "Naik, the Fake" guy. People a lot smarter than you or me have attempted to disprove the resurrection of the Christ ... and even credible opponents of Christianity agree the death and resurrection of the Christ is not merely a Biblical claim ... but an historical fact. (You need to expand your "sources" of your own research just a little bit, Mahboob. You don't even get a "Nice try" for that post....)

Can you, or KK, or D-Man, or Mr. Plungerman, quote a clear verse from the Bible where Jesus has clearly .. very clearly said, "I am God, worship me"?1 - Those very words? No. But the concept of Christ Jesus communicating that He is God is quite clearly expressed.

(a) Do you remember the Bible says that God's name is "I AM?" Exodus 3:13-14 reveals the story of God's appeareance to Moses and His instruction for Moses to demand the release of Israel from Pharoh....

Then Moses asked God, "If I go to the Israelites and say to them: The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, 'What is His name?' what should I tell them?"

God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

(b) Then "fast foward" to John 8 in the NT, where the Scribes and Pharisees of the Temple of the Mount of Olives were demanding the same kind of understanding of Jesus you do, Mahboob....

Toward the end of that chapter, Jesus is explaining that following Him will bring Eternal Life (but the Pharisees thought he was speaking of temporal life).

John 8:51-59
I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death--ever!" Then the Jews said, "Now we know You have a demon. Abraham died and so did the prophets. You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste death--ever!' Are You greater than our father Abraham who died? Even the prophets died. Who do You pretend to be?" "If I glorify Myself," Jesus answered, "My glory is nothing. My Father is the One who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You've never known Him, but I know Him. If I were to say I don't know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day; he saw it and rejoiced." The Jews replied, "You aren't 50 years old yet, and You've seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex.

The Pharisees intended to stone Him because claiming the name of God "I am" was the worst sin they could imagine. (They didn't "get it;" that Jesus really is God.)

I do recall that someone inquired from Jesus as to the time of the occurrence of The Hour. Jesus replied, ONLY MY FATHER KNOWS ABOUT IT. NO ONE BUT MY FATHER!This is an accurate quote ... but you make the mistake of ignoring my explanation of the trinity from many pages ago.

Remember that Jesus, while on Earth those 33 years, is described as being fully God and fully man. Jesus had voluntarily ... suppressed ... his Deity while on Earth. The quote you posted was that of Jesus, the man speaking.

(I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp. Christian scholars still bicker over certain aspects of it....)

If Jesus Christ is a part of God, if he is the son of God, if he is the God Himself, then he should have known this.He could have, but He chose not to exercise the Godly power of omniscence most of His time on Earth.

The mere fact that he did not know it means that he is not part of God, he is not son of God, he is not God.Since your premise is "off" from that of the Bible, your conclusion is also off....

- KK

Kaptain Karl

11-24-2006, 10:51 AM

You know, maybe, God can be represented with a Nature that can accommodate both Christian and Muslim religions, as well as Polytheist and Atheist religions.You don't appear to have read the thread. (I know! It's a lot.) It strikes me that you are posting metaphysical responses to (specific) theological arguments. IOW, there's almost no ... connection ... between where this discussion has gone, and where you seem to be "posting from."

(I don't know if that helps or not, but I'm trying....)

- KK

TennisBatman

11-24-2006, 12:08 PM

You don't appear to have read the thread. (I know! It's a lot.) It strikes me that you are posting metaphysical responses to (specific) theological arguments. IOW, there's almost no ... connection ... between where this discussion has gone, and where you seem to be "posting from."

(I don't know if that helps or not, but I'm trying....)

- KK

You're right, I haven't read the thread. But you know what? I don't need to...the title's all that's needed.

So, yes, I'm "posting from" not a specific place in the thread, but from the title of the thread.

Mahboob Khan

11-24-2006, 06:25 PM

I don't know who the so-called "Christian Scholar" was (I'm guessing he was a shill.) but *I* could win that debate against your "Naik, the Fake" guy. People a lot smarter than you or me have attempted to disprove the resurrection of the Christ ... and even credible opponents of Christianity agree the death and resurrection of the Christ is not merely a Biblical claim ... but an historical fact. (You need to expand your "sources" of your own research just a little bit, Mahboob. You don't even get a "Nice try" for that post....)

1 - Those very words? No. But the concept of Christ Jesus communicating that He is God is quite clearly expressed.

(a) Do you remember the Bible says that God's name is "I AM?" Exodus 3:13-14 reveals the story of God's appeareance to Moses and His instruction for Moses to demand the release of Israel from Pharoh....

Then Moses asked God, "If I go to the Israelites and say to them: The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they ask me, 'What is His name?' what should I tell them?"

God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."

(b) Then "fast foward" to John 8 in the NT, where the Scribes and Pharisees of the Temple of the Mount of Olives were demanding the same kind of understanding of Jesus you do, Mahboob....

Toward the end of that chapter, Jesus is explaining that following Him will bring Eternal Life (but the Pharisees thought he was speaking of temporal life).

John 8:51-59
I assure you: If anyone keeps My word, he will never see death--ever!" Then the Jews said, "Now we know You have a demon. Abraham died and so did the prophets. You say, 'If anyone keeps My word, he will never taste death--ever!' Are You greater than our father Abraham who died? Even the prophets died. Who do You pretend to be?" "If I glorify Myself," Jesus answered, "My glory is nothing. My Father is the One who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.' You've never known Him, but I know Him. If I were to say I don't know Him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know Him, and I keep His word. Your father Abraham was overjoyed that he would see My day; he saw it and rejoiced." The Jews replied, "You aren't 50 years old yet, and You've seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." At that, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus was hidden and went out of the temple complex.

The Pharisees intended to stone Him because claiming the name of God "I am" was the worst sin they could imagine. (They didn't "get it;" that Jesus really is God.)

This is an accurate quote ... but you make the mistake of ignoring my explanation of the trinity from many pages ago.

Remember that Jesus, while on Earth those 33 years, is described as being fully God and fully man. Jesus had voluntarily ... suppressed ... his Deity while on Earth. The quote you posted was that of Jesus, the man speaking.

(I realize this is a difficult concept to grasp. Christian scholars still bicker over certain aspects of it....)

He could have, but He chose not to exercise the Godly power of omniscence most of His time on Earth.

Since your premise is "off" from that of the Bible, your conclusion is also off....

- KK

KK, your method of comparing and explaining is excellent. I wish I had these skills of cut and paste.

KK, let be assure that I read each and every word of you and I know what you are saying, but please try to understand my problem also because:

-- on one hand you are saying that Jesus Christ was 3 in one or 1 in three!

-- Then you are saying that He was God, or he was one of the three God, the son, and the Holy Ghost.

-- If he was one of the three then he must have known everything that the other two had known, or knowing, and/or will know in the future! And, Jesus would have known the occurrence of The Hour afterall he (Jesus) is the Sign of the Hour. Jesus is the Sign of the Hour. He must have known this because this is associated with him.

-- Then when you get confronted, you are saying that he was partly God and partly human being (Prophet).

-- Then you are saying that he did not use his Godly powers on earth. Look, powers are delegated if the delegated person has the need to use them. If he did not need to use these Godly powers on earth, then why was he given these powers to begin with. Just to confuse us? Give me a break we are already confused. We did not need this additional confusion.

-- Then you are saying that Jesus died on the Cross.

-- When I confronted you that since Jesus Christ three in one or one in three, with his physical death the other two .. God and the Holy Ghost .. also died with him.

-- Then you are saying, Jesus did not die (only the man part died, the God part ran away).

-- Jesus died a physical death .. no, no, he did not die a physical death because he was a God .. and so on.

Let me quote a Quranic verse:

3:55: When Allah said, "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed."

4:157-158: (And on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Isa, son of Meryam, Messenger of Allah. "They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to appear to them so. Those who argue about him are in clear doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they surely did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise".

KK, I respect your efforts, I really admire your skills that you tried to prove unprovable, but I am going to stick with Quranic version because it makes sense.

I will recommend for you:

-- Listen to Dr. Zakir Naik. His tapes are available, and he comes on Peace t.v. Also listen to two Americans reverts Abdul Rahim Green and Yusuf Este.

-- You may even send your name for a debate with Dr. Zakir Naik. He knows more about Bible than some of your Scholars. KK, I am serious!

Kaptain Karl

11-25-2006, 12:26 AM

-- on one hand you are saying that Jesus Christ was 3 in one or 1 in three!

-- Then you are saying that He was God, or he was one of the three God, the son, and the Holy Ghost.I recognize this is difficult for you. If you're going to purposely try to make it more complicated ... well, I've got better things to spend my time on than word games.

In case I'm over-reacting I will (this time) still address your question. Do you remember way back on Page 8 of this very thread, where I described the trinity (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=1050125&postcount=151) to you? Did it help or not?

You see, the dilemma is that you are attempting to comprehend "God" ... by assuming He thinks and behaves the way you, a man, does. (This is called "anthropomorphism".) You are trying to limit God to your own understanding....

-- If he was one of the three then he must have known everything that the other two had known, or knowing, and/or will know in the future! And, Jesus would have known the occurrence of The Hour afterall he (Jesus) is the Sign of the Hour. Jesus is the Sign of the Hour. He must have known this because this is associated with him.Do you accept the Major Premise that God can do anything? If "Yes" ... why is it so difficult to imagine that Jesus/God could choose to keep knowledge from Jesus/Man? IOW, if He can create the universe by speaking it into existence, why can't He (as God) allow or prevent Himself (as Man) from knowing a particular thing? (No. I cannot completely grasp this, myself. I merely am able to *imagine* it is possible.)

-- Then when you get confronted, you are saying that he was partly God and partly human being (Prophet).I never posted this. I posted He was both fully God and fully man.

-- Then you are saying that he did not use his Godly powers on earth.Correct.

Look, powers are delegated if the delegated person has the need to use them. If he did not need to use these Godly powers on earth, then why was he given these powers to begin with. Just to confuse us? Give me a break we are already confused. We did not need this additional confusion.Again, you are anthropomorphizing.

-- Then you are saying that Jesus died on the Cross.It's not "me" saying it. It's Biblical. It's historical. It's medical. It's archeological.

-- When I confronted you that since Jesus Christ three in one or one in three, with his physical death the other two .. God and the Holy Ghost .. also died with him.No. Jesus/man died and was resurrected; not Jesus/God ... or the Father, or the Holy Spirit.

-- Then you are saying, Jesus did not die (only the man part died, the God part ran away).

-- Jesus died a physical death .. no, no, he did not die a physical death because he was a God .. and so on.Well ... you're "sort of" getting it.

Let me quote a Quranic verse:

3:55: When Allah said, "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed."::sigh:: Even in English your holy writings are so ... poetic ... I cannot understand them. In the context of this passage, I'd ask, "What do the following terms really mean? 'Purify' 'Day of Rising' 'judge between you regarding the things about which you differed' ??? I don't "get" the Qura'an most of the time.

4:157-158: (And on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Isa, son of Meryam, Messenger of Allah. "They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to appear to them so. Those who argue about him are in clear doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they surely did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise".This is yet another passage of which makes me more certain we do not worship the same God. (If the Bible's commentaries about God are accurate -- and the Qura'an is supposed to also be accurate -- well obviously this isn't possible, since they directly contradict each other regarding Christ's death and resurrection.) If the two Holy Books describe their Deity so differently ... they cannot be the same God.

KK, I respect your efforts, I really admire your skills that you tried to prove unprovable, but I am going to stick with Quranic version because it makes sense.

I will recommend for you:

-- Listen to Dr. Zakir Naik. His tapes are available, and he comes on Peace t.v. Also listen to two Americans reverts Abdul Rahim Green and Yusuf Este.I *might* pursue this....

-- You may even send your name for a debate with Dr. Zakir Naik. He knows more about Bible than some of your Scholars. KK, I am serious!This made me chuckle. You probably don't even know who "some of my scholars" ARE....

- KK

CanadianChic

11-25-2006, 12:33 AM

KK - regardless of my stance in this thread, my hat is off to you for the way you calmly, patiently communicate your points. :)

mohmoh

11-25-2006, 01:00 AM

Mahboob does not understand Jesus does not have to say he is God, oh please worship me, that is ridiculous. Jesus is a Son of God which means he is GOD, Holy trinity is as one but it is also Separate and has its own identities. I think Mahboob purposely closes his mind to Biblical explanations, and only listens to his Allah and Koran, so How is anyone going to explain anything to him so that he will understand ??????????????:-(

Because it only makes sense that we worship one GOD, the who created us, who feeds us, who knows us, who knows what we think and what we do. It really makes sense that we worship this GOD. And This God does not need another God to share his Godness with him.

With all due respect to all christians and without any offense, the theory of having three Gods does not make any sense whatsoever, it is confusing to many people. And the idea of having one God (Jesus) being killed for our sins is even more confusing. What really makes sense, is that everyone should be responsible for his/her own sins. And in the "Day of Judgement" all creatures (insluding Jesus) will be judged for their actions.

And if you want to talk logically, then you would agree that Jesus was a human being, eating, drinking, going to the bathroom and doing all other things like all humans. Ofcourse God gave him some miracles because he was very beloved by God.

So, why don't you and others open your mind and think in this logical manner which makes sense?

maleyoyo

11-25-2006, 04:08 AM

Kaptain Karl

11-25-2006, 07:39 AM

mohmoh - Respectfully, your "sense" and "logic" is your obstacle. You are doing what (so many of us) did for so long ... you are expecting all the concepts, attributes, teachings and expressions of our Great Big God to "fit" into your puny human brain's understanding. (He is the original "thinker outside the box." We cannot even come close to categorizing Him ... to comprehending Him, or His ways.)

Because it only makes sense that we worship one GOD, the who created us, who feeds us, who knows us, who knows what we think and what we do. It really makes sense that we worship this GOD. And This God does not need another God to share his Godness with him.Agreed. The triune God of Christianity is NOT "three gods." He is One God, in three persons. (Did you read my post from Page 8?) I link to it in my previous response to Mahboob.

With all due respect to all christians and without any offense, the theory of having three Gods does not make any sense whatsoever, it is confusing to many people.Christians agree with you. (See above.)

And the idea of having one God (Jesus) being killed for our sins is even more confusing.It was only Jesus/Man who was sacrificed for our sins. He was, and is, the only sinless human being ... ever. He was the "perfect" sacrifice. All we have to do is accept Him.

What really makes sense, is that everyone should be responsible for his/her own sins. And in the "Day of Judgement" all creatures (insluding Jesus) will be judged for their actions.

And if you want to talk logically, then you would agree that Jesus was a human being, eating, drinking, going to the bathroom and doing all other things like all humans.In human thinking this would, indeed, "make sense." Do you agree that to try and make God comply with (our) way of thinking is ... limiting God?

So, why don't you and others open your mind and think in this logical manner which makes sense?I submit it is your mind which will not "open" to God's way of thinking. (I don't usually like to quote a whole lot of Scripture in these discussions. I am making an exception for you, mohmoh.)

This is why You are great, Lord God. There is no one like You, and there is no God besides You, as all we have heard confirms. [2 Samuel 7]

Who has directed the Spirit of the Lord, or who gave Him His counsel? Who did He consult with? Who gave Him understanding and taught Him the paths of justice? Who taught Him knowledge and showed Him the way of understanding?

Look, the nations are like a drop in a bucket; they are considered as a speck of dust on the scales; He lifts up the islands like fine dust. Lebanon is not enough for fuel, or its animals enough for a burnt offering. All the nations are as nothing before Him; they are considered by Him as nothingness and emptiness.

Who will you compare God with? ... Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been declared to you from the beginning? Have you not considered the foundations of the earth? God is enthroned above the circle of the earth; its inhabitants are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like thin cloth and spreads them out like a tent to live in. He reduces princes to nothing and makes the judges of the earth to be irrational. They are barely planted, barely sown, their stem hardly takes root in the ground when He blows on them and they wither, and a whirlwind carries them away like stubble.

"Who will you compare Me to, or who is My equal?" asks the Holy One. Look up and see: who created these? He brings out the starry host by number; He calls all of them by name. Because of His great power and strength, not one of them is missing.

Jacob, why do you say, and Israel, why do you assert: "My way is hidden from the Lord, and my claim is ignored by my God"? Do you not know? Have you not heard? Yahweh is the everlasting God, the Creator of the whole earth. He never grows faint or weary; there is no limit to His understanding. He gives strength to the weary and strengthens the powerless. Youths may faint and grow weary, and young men stumble and fall, but those who trust in the Lord will renew their strength; they will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary; they will walk and not faint. [Isaiah 40]

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? [Romans 11] (It's a rhetorical question....)

Seek the Lord while He may be found; call to Him while He is near. Let the wicked one abandon his way, and the sinful one his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, so He may have compassion on him, and to our God, for He will freely forgive.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, and your ways are not My ways."[This is] the Lord's declaration. "For as heaven is higher than earth, so My ways are higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. [Isaiah 55]

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-25-2006, 08:39 AM

KK - regardless of my stance in this thread, my hat is off to you for the way you calmly, patiently communicate your points. :)

Yes. My hat is also off to him. The Plungerman has a lot to learn from KK.

mohmoh

11-25-2006, 11:34 AM

you are expecting all the concepts, attributes, teachings and expressions of our Great Big God to "fit" into your puny human brain's understanding. (He is the original "thinker outside the box." We cannot even come close to categorizing Him ... to comprehending Him, or His ways.)

I believe in the same thing. And this why you can not shut the door against Islam. Since we can not comprehend God (the Creator), then our theory could be valid. Our God (the Creator) who sent many prophets in the past before Jesus, then he could have sent another Prophet, Mohammed. And both the Bible and the Torah talked about another Prophet coming from Arabia.

Agreed. The triune God of Christianity is NOT "three gods." He is One God, in three persons. (Did you read my post from Page 8?) I link to it in my previous response to Mahboob.

I read that post of yours. But again the same thing, one God in three persons is confusing.

It was only Jesus/Man who was sacrificed for our sins. He was, and is, the only sinless human being ... ever. He was the "perfect" sacrifice. All we have to do is accept Him.

We accept him as a Prophet to Jews.

So, you accept that he's a human being? Was he a prophet? I thought christians think of him as God.

And tell me please, which theory makes more sense: everyone is responsible for his/her sins? or one person being sacrificed for all the sins? If you are the boss of a company, do you accept that your best employee get punished in one way or another for the sake of other employees who are not doing their jobs?

Do you agree that to try and make God comply with (our) way of thinking is ... limiting God?

I agree. God has limitless power, limitless knowledge, limitless wealth, limitless capabilities. ..etc and we can not comprehend any of these.

I submit it is your mind which will not "open" to God's way of thinking.

I have a clear mind which believes that there's only ONE GOD who created the whole universe, who will send all creatures for the Day of Judgement, who will decide who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven and who sent us Prophets to teach us how to worship him, the first one was Adam and the last one was Mohammed. It is very clear and simple theory to comprehend.

(I don't usually like to quote a whole lot of Scripture in these discussions. I am making an exception for you, mohmoh.)

Thanks for putting these quotes. Muslims believe in the same things regarding the greatness of God and his limitless knowledge, capabilities, strength, power, wealth, etc..

ThePlungerMan

11-25-2006, 01:25 PM

I believe in the same thing. And this why you can not shut the door against Islam.
Not only did he shut the door on Islam he slammed it so hard the dwelling to it came crashing down as well. Your just to narrow minded to see that The Quran and The bible are not even close. But you will not get that fact in your present state of mind.
We accept him as a Prophet to Jews.
Oh boy, nice try though,,,, on second thought, no, not a nice try, just another stab in the dark remark.
So, you accept that he's a human being? Was he a prophet? I thought christians think of him as God. And you ask again only to refute again. Really wanna know? study it,,,,, oh wait, you don’t want to know,,, you only want to argue against it.
And tell me please, which theory makes more sense: everyone is responsible for his/her sins? or one person being sacrificed for all the sins? If you are the boss of a company, do you accept that your best employee get punished in one way or another for the sake of other employees who are not doing their jobs?
Same as above
I agree. God has limitless power, limitless knowledge, limitless wealth, limitless capabilities. ..etc and we can not comprehend any of these.
That’s the point you look to when trying to grasp the Trinity. Gotcha
I have a clear mind which believes that there's only ONE GOD who created the whole universe, who will send all creatures for the Day of Judgement, who will decide who will go to Hell and who will go to Heaven and who sent us Prophets to teach us how to worship him, the first one was Adam and the last one was Mohammed. It is very clear and simple theory to comprehend.
Per the Bible it clearly states a resounding NO HE WASN’T the last prophet. Or one for that matter.
Thanks for putting these quotes. Muslims believe in the same things regarding the greatness of God and his limitless knowledge, capabilities, strength, power, wealth, etc..
IOW,,, you didn’t say you believed the scripture he pasted in,, just that God is ….

More From The FALSE GOSPEL of ISLAM
Muslims believe that all mankind must be brought into subjection to the spurious teachings of the Qur'an in order to experience peace and blessing. They will not compromise that belief.

(Problem here)= While "Christians" are manifesting their "open mindedness," Muslims are spreading their false religious propaganda under the cover of dialogue.

Islam seems to be asserting itself in the area of religious dialogue, and men and women who claim to represent Christianity are quickly building the credibility of Islam as a true religion. Instead of witnessing, Christians are encouraged to discover common ground with Muslims.

Rather than exposing its errors, Christians are told to search for the truth in Islam. Thus, Islam is gaining a respectability that is simply not deserved.

Mahboob Khan

11-25-2006, 05:58 PM

He can't understand it because he doesn't have YOUR FAITH. Religion is all about faith.
Let's just say your Nadal, an excellent baseline player, believes in his style of play. And Samprass is a serve and volley type of player. He too believes his style works best for him.
Imagine Samprass comes up to Nadal and says: with your good serve and quickness I can't understand why you don't serve and volley ( Not that Samprass would ever say things like that )
You think Samprass's comment makes any sense to YOUR Nadal?

Islam is the only religion which has re-established the true position of Jesus Christ. All the lies, myths, misceptions, and miscarriage of the true message of Allah, have been cleared in Al-Qura'an and the Hadith.

ThePlungerMan

11-25-2006, 09:10 PM

Sir, whatever little I know, I am trying my best to re-establish the true status of Isa son of Meryam (Jesus son of Mary). If I am right, our greatest Messengers of Allah Muhammad and Jesus (peace be upon them) shall intercede on my behalf .. hopefully; and Allah is Wise and All-Knower!
You haven’t established the true nature in the first place.
Islam is the only religion which has re-established the true position of Jesus Christ. All the lies, myths, misceptions, and miscarriage of the true message of Allah, have been cleared in Al-Qura'an and the Hadith.
This thread is about the difference between God and Allah, not to preach The Quran over and over. See a common theme here. You’ve shared The Quran version of Jesus,,, KK and D-Man have shared The Bible’s version wonderfully. Now why do you want to drag it on and on. I know why. You are preaching that is. But thanks for the practice in how to disprove Islam per The Bible’s message.
What are the verses in OT about the Lord God? You don’t care. You just want to keep preaching Islam, by using any answer you get.
OT is clear about one God and so is Al-Qura'an.
You know, OR HAVE BEEN TOLD A DOZEN TIMES the OT talks about Jesus as the savior who will come to earth as God in man. Your now acting like a cult leader. Outright lying. Is your time almost up, are you getting desperate? I should say so.
Did Trinity exist during the time of Abraham and Moses?
You don’t’ care. It’s obvious you don’t, as this question has been wonderfully answered to you by KK and D-Man which you ,, thanked them kindly for.
Is there any mention in the OT about Trinity?
You don’t care. You said up above The OT is clear about only one God, but now your asking if it did mention The Trinity. This makes your claim above worthless.

Now all those accusations I made weeks ago don’t seem so off now. I pegged you from the beginning. YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT CHRISTIANITY. THOUGH YOU SAID YOU DID. BUT YOU HAVE PROVEN YOU DON’T CARE. YOU JUST WHAT TO PREACH ISLAM
Islam is the religion of universe .. and Jesus Christ is smiling in the Heavens about his followers .. about his followers (Christians) who drifted from the actual message, and about his real followers (Muslims) who are trying to uphold his true/original message about Al-Islam! Remember, I dubbed myself as a Christian?
More From The FALSE GOSPEL of ISLAM
Muslims believe that the doctrine of the Incarnation of God is blasphemy. They will not compromise that belief. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the prophet who fully revealed the final truth. They will not compromise that belief. Muslims are "devoted to their ideals,... and uncompromising with falsehood" ("Moral System of Islam"). Only the glorious, liberating light of the one true Gospel will be able to break through such darkness.

Kaptain Karl

11-26-2006, 10:31 AM

pinky42 - Your last post made me suspect I missed a question from you. I did ... sorry.

Who are these people? How were they trying to disprove the resurrection of the Christ? <snip> It's news to me that the death and resurrection of the Christ is a historical fact.I will address this ... but it may be Tuesday by the time I do. We're hosting out-of-town quests....

- KK

Kaptain Karl

11-29-2006, 08:24 AM

Mahboob Khan

11-29-2006, 10:27 AM

Mahboob - I am noticing a distrubing trend. I have asked you for more information regarding several of your posts and a LOT of the times you have either ignored my request ... "just missed" seeing it ... or simply repeated the claim I asked about. This will not be exhaustive, but here are some of the questions I still hope you will address....

From Post 151:
Mahboob - I read in the OT that Moses told his nation, "do not ascribe patners onto the Lord God; verify, He does not like partners".

KK - I have searched multiple English translations -- including that of the Latin Vulgate -- and I cannot locate the verse you reference. Would you please identify the Bible verse (not the Koran, please)?

From Post 658:
Mahboob - Let me quote a Quranic verse:

3:55: When Allah said, "Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me and purify you of those who are disbelievers. And I will place the people who follow you above those who are disbelievers until the Day of Rising. Then you will all return to Me, and I will judge between you regarding the things about which you differed."

KK - ... In the context of this passage, I'd ask, "What do the following terms really mean? 'Purify' 'Day of Rising' 'judge between you regarding the things about which you differed' ??? I don't "get" the Qura'an most of the time.
_____________

While I'm on that vein ... would you explain the meaning of the terms "ascribe" and "partner"? These are probably important terms since they are part of your root Quranic argument against the trinity.

Thanks.

- KK

Do not ascribe partners: Do not take partners with God. Or say, "there are more than one God"; and/or someone else is competent of doing those things that only God can do. I read it in the OT some 15 years ago Moses saying, "Do not ascribe or do not take partners with Lord God, verify He does not like partners". I cannot locate my Bible, thus, cannot locate the verse, but I will keep on trying. What I meant was that in the OT there is no concept of Trinity because OT is about One God. Any Jewish scholar can throw some light here. I am not an expert of the OT. In Arabic the word is, "shirk" "mushrik". Partnership, partner. Just like in business you might have partners. Even in this word there are some businessmen who wholly soly own business and do not keep partners. In Islam, "shirk" is the major sin. This sin cannot be pardoned or forgiven or forgotten. Allah does not have partner(s). Your concept of Trinity means that God is one in three persons. This to us is taking partners with Allah.

Purify: When you separate good from bad. People said bad things about Jesus. In fact those people who said bad things about Jesus were in fact bad .. very bad indeed, and Allah decided to separate good from the bad. Cleanse so to speak. Yes, there is a room for a better translation of the arabic word, "mutahhirruka". In Urdu there is suitable translation of this word "pak" e.g. pure, clean. I will try another translation by Pickthal:

3:55: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will all return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ".

You will understand the above verse better if you will also read the following:

4:157-158: (And on account of) their saying, "We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Meryam, Messenger of Allah." They did not kill him and they did not crucify him but it was made to appear so to them. Those who argue about him are in doubt about it. They have no real knowledge of it, just conjecture. But they certainly did not kill him. Allah raised him up to Himself. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise.

Very important word has been used and I suspect this word has not properly been translated in English. I will just take those words out for you:

Wa ma qataloohu wa ma salaboohu walakin shuubiha lahum. "They did not kill him and they did not crucify him; they crucified/killed a person like him, a person who looked like Jesus, or they killed his duplicate, or Jesus was substituded by Allah on Cross. Someone else took his place. "Shuubiha lahum" .. a person like him .. a person of his face .. a person who looked like him.. look alike. In the absence of proper English translation, I tried my best to translate this verse for you. From 4:157-158 it becomes clear that yes a person was put on cross but that person was not Jesus because Jesus was taken back by Allah before he could be put on cross. He ascended to Allah alive.

Day of Rising or Day of Ressurrection. When the day of Judgement is declared, and dead will rise from their graves with Allah's permission!

In the day of Judgement Allah will decide on those matters on which we used to differ in this world. Just as we differed here on this Board.

Kaptain Karl

11-29-2006, 04:39 PM

Quoting out-of-order purposely...
Since science doesn't deal with the supernatural, it can't be used to disprove the resurrection of the Christ any more that it can disprove the existance of invisible pink unicorns. Perhaps it was a philosophical exercise?This portion of your post demonstrates a presupposition that "the Bible" cannot be factually, historically or acheologically accurate. (If you are going to dismiss the Bible as "supernatural" we will not have much opportunity for discourse. If you are willing to remain open to the possibility that the Bible "just might" be factual ... then we can discuss....)

I post this because Biblical evidence is some of the most quoted evidence. The Bible is known to be a repository of historical knowledge. If you operate on the premise that it cannot possibly be accurate ... "Oh well...."

Who are these people? How were they trying to disprove the resurrection of the Christ?Ever since the resurrection of the Christ, religious Jews, secular Romans and Pagan Romans have been trying to disprove Christ's resurrection. Since the resurrection is *the key* to Christianity, if one can disprove it, Christianity crumbles into insignificance. (So one can understand why so many, who are opposed to Christianity, will attempt to dismantle any claims of the resurrection's veracity.)

Today, it is mostly Atheists who "drive" the thinking that the Bible cannot be factual. One of their most quoted "sources" is their own site (www.atheists.org). *Warning* that site is one of the silliest sites I've ever visited. They regularly "lift" a single phrase out of context of Scripture and attempt to "prove" it is a contradiction of some other Biblical phrase. As "scholarship" it is ... wanting.

Another site, which IMO pretends to be somewhat more scholarly, is www.infidels.org. The problem I have with it is (probably the same as they would have with me) they unabashedly start with "Christianity is hogwash" as their foundational premise. They are much better at mockery than scholarly analysis.

Again, who are these people? It's news to me that the death and resurrection of the Christ is a historical fact.Many "devout unbelievers" attempt to discredit Christianity with the "shotgun approach." They try to shoot down multiple principles of the Chrisian Faith; not "just" the resurrection.

Here are (just a few) of the good Christian sources I can recommend....

Josh McDowell - Started out to demonstrate God was a myth. He has become one of the top apologists of Christianity. (Josh has lots of analysis of the historical and archeological accuracies of the Bible.)

Gary Habermas - Another top apologist, he usually tries to stick to the resurrection as the core argument....

Walter Martin (deceased) - I really miss this guy! Dr. Martin wrote Essential Christianity, which I'd say is a "must read" ... even for skeptics. (Martin would gladly participate in public debates against all-comers. He had a terrific sense of humor and usually could leave his obliterated opponents with at least a smile on their faces....)

Hank Hanegraaff - The "new guy" at www.equip.org. (Well ... "new" since Dr. Martin's death about fifteen years ago.) See an excerpt from one of Hank's pieces below.

And agan, in Post 666 [Ooohh!]
Yeah, but the claim was both death and resurrection were historic fact. I've never heard of anything supernatural being considered historic fact so I'm wondering who these people that KK refers to are.This has been an interesting exercise. I know there are many more Christians who started out as opponents to Christianity and/or the resurrection. I just cannot "put my finger on them" very quickly. Let me know if you need me to dig up some more....

From Equip.org and Hank Hanegraaff: (And this, too, I am quoting out-of-order, to make a point at the end.)

... belief in the Resurrection does not constitute a blind leap into a dark chasm but rather a step into the light. Indeed, the evidence for Christ’s resurrection is so overwhelming that no one can examine it with an open mind desiring to know the truth without becoming convinced of its truth.

Of the many evidences available, none is more compelling than the fact that the resurrected Christ appeared to over five hundred individuals at a single time (1 Cor. 15:6). Christ appeared to numerous other individuals as well, providing “many convincing proofs” of His resurrection (Acts 1:3). Christ in His resurrection body was even touched on two occasions (Matt. 28:9; John 20:17), and challenged the disciples (Luke 24:39) and Thomas (John 20:27) to feel His wounds.

For those who continue to harbor doubts about the veracity of the biblical evidence, one need only point to Dr. Simon Greenleaf, the greatest authority on legal evidences in the 19th century. It is noteworthy that after examining the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Greenleaf suggested that any cross-examination of the eyewitness testimonies recorded in Scripture would result in “an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability, and truth.”

Despite the biblical evidence, some have suggested that Jesus’ body was stolen from the tomb —by either the Romans, the Jews, or the disciples. However, even as we consider such alternative explanations, reason drives us back to the conclusion that Christ rose from the dead. Consider the following: We know that the Romans would have no reason to steal Christ’s body. After all, they wanted to keep the peace in Palestine.

The Jewish religious leaders would also have no motive in stealing the body since that would only stir up the very movement they had tried to crush. Besides, if the Jewish leaders had stolen the body, they could have later openly displayed the body to prove to the disciples and indeed the world that Jesus had not really risen from the dead.

Another theory that has been resuscitated (ad nauseam and ad infinitum) in a desperate attempt to explain away the Resurrection is the so-called “Swoon theory.” This theory says that Jesus did not really die on the cross, but merely passed out and was later revived. However, this theory is hopelessly flawed. Think about it for a minute. Can you imagine that Jesus endured six trials, a crown of thorns, a Roman scourge, a crucifixion, a spear thrust into His side, the loss of a great deal of blood, going three days without medical attention or food, pushing a two-ton stone away from His tomb’s entrance, and then physically overcoming an armed Roman guard while walking on pierced feet? No! The Swoon theory is ridiculous in the extreme. And yet, amazingly, some people continue to hang their hats on it.

And certainly, the disciples wouldn’t have stolen the body, for why would they choose to suffer and die for a cause they knew to be a lie? While it is conceivable that someone might choose to die for what they know to be the truth, it is inconceivable that hundreds of Jesus’ followers would be willing to die for what they knew to be a lie.

After carefully examining all the evidence, one can only come to the singular conclusion that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead and that He now lives to be our Lord and Savior (Rev. 1:18). And let me emphasize that the resurrection of Christ is not just an Easter-time phenomenon to be celebrated in song and service. Rather, it is a truth that should daily fill us with eternal hope. Not only did the resurrection of Christ transform the disciples from cowards to lions of the faith, but His resurrection still continues to transform lives today. Because Christ lives, the Scripture says, we will live also. Indeed, in an instant.... — Hank Hanegraaff

[It's me, KK, again.] That blue part is notable to me, with regard to the topic of this thread: I hope I'm not the only one who notes the disciples died for their belief in a risen Christ. (The "Islamist"* nut-jobs are willing that some should die for their beliefs too ... it's just that THEY manage to convice other people to strap-on a bomb and die. That's really sick....)

* I use "Islamist" the way Prager and Hewitt do. Not as a description of devout followers of Islam ... but as a description of the terrorist element which is a perversion of the Muslim faith.

- KK

Phil

11-29-2006, 04:57 PM

Quoting out-of-order purposely...
This portion of your post demonstrates a presupposition that "the Bible" cannot be factually, historically or acheologically accurate. (If you are going to dismiss the Bible as "supernatural" we will not have much opportunity for discourse. If you are willing to remain open to the possibility that the Bible "just might" be factual ... then we can discuss....)

I post this because Biblical evidence is some of the most quoted evidence. The Bible is known to be a repository of historical knowledge. If you operate on the premise that it cannot possibly be accurate ... "Oh well...."

Ever since the resurrection of the Christ, religious Jews, secular Romans and Pagan Romans have been trying to disprove Christ's resurrection. Since the resurrection is *the key* to Christianity, if one can disprove it, Christianity crumbles into insignificance. (So one can understand why so many, who are opposed to Christianity, will attempt to dismantle any claims of the resurrection's veracity.)

Today, it is mostly Atheists who "drive" the thinking that the Bible cannot be factual. One of their most quoted "sources" is their own site (http://www.atheists.org). *Warning* that site is one of the silliest sites I've ever visited. They regularly "lift" a single phrase out of context of Scripture and attempt to "prove" it is a contradiction of some other Biblical phrase. As "scholarship" it is ... wanting.

Another site, which IMO pretends to be somewhat more scholarly, is www.infidels.org (http://www.infidels.org). The problem I have with it is (probably the same as they would have with me) they unabashedly start with "Christianity is hogwash" as their foundational premise. They are much better at mockery than scholarly analysis.

Many "devout unbelievers" attempt to discredit Christianity with the "shotgun approach." They try to shoot down multiple principles of the Chrisian Faith; not "just" the resurrection.

Here are (just a few) of the good Christian sources I can recommend....

Josh McDowell - Started out to demonstrate God was a myth. He has become one of the top apologists of Christianity. (Josh has lots of analysis of the historical and archeological accuracies of the Bible.)

Gary Habermas - Another top apologist, he usually tries to stick to the resurrection as the core argument....

Walter Martin (deceased) - I really miss this guy! Dr. Martin wrote Essential Christianity, which I'd say is a "must read" ... even for skeptics. (Martin would gladly participate in public debates against all-comers. He had a terrific sense of humor and usually could leave his obliterated opponents with at least a smile on their faces....)

Hank Hanegraaff - The "new guy" at www.equip.org (http://www.equip.org). (Well ... "new" since Dr. Martin's death about fifteen years ago.) See an excerpt from one of Hank's pieces below.

And agan, in Post 666 [Ooohh!]
This has been an interesting exercise. I know there are many more Christians who started out as opponents to Christianity and/or the resurrection. I just cannot "put my finger on them" very quickly. Let me know if you need me to dig up some more....

From Equip.org and Hank Hanegraaff: (And this, too, I am quoting out-of-order, to make a point at the end.)

... belief in the Resurrection does not constitute a blind leap into a dark chasm but rather a step into the light. Indeed, the evidence for Christ’s resurrection is so overwhelming that no one can examine it with an open mind desiring to know the truth without becoming convinced of its truth.

Of the many evidences available, none is more compelling than the fact that the resurrected Christ appeared to over five hundred individuals at a single time (1 Cor. 15:6). Christ appeared to numerous other individuals as well, providing “many convincing proofs” of His resurrection (Acts 1:3). Christ in His resurrection body was even touched on two occasions (Matt. 28:9; John 20:17), and challenged the disciples (Luke 24:39) and Thomas (John 20:27) to feel His wounds.

For those who continue to harbor doubts about the veracity of the biblical evidence, one need only point to Dr. Simon Greenleaf, the greatest authority on legal evidences in the 19th century. It is noteworthy that after examining the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Greenleaf suggested that any cross-examination of the eyewitness testimonies recorded in Scripture would result in “an undoubting conviction of their integrity, ability, and truth.”

Despite the biblical evidence, some have suggested that Jesus’ body was stolen from the tomb —by either the Romans, the Jews, or the disciples. However, even as we consider such alternative explanations, reason drives us back to the conclusion that Christ rose from the dead. Consider the following: We know that the Romans would have no reason to steal Christ’s body. After all, they wanted to keep the peace in Palestine.

The Jewish religious leaders would also have no motive in stealing the body since that would only stir up the very movement they had tried to crush. Besides, if the Jewish leaders had stolen the body, they could have later openly displayed the body to prove to the disciples and indeed the world that Jesus had not really risen from the dead.

Another theory that has been resuscitated (ad nauseam and ad infinitum) in a desperate attempt to explain away the Resurrection is the so-called “Swoon theory.” This theory says that Jesus did not really die on the cross, but merely passed out and was later revived. However, this theory is hopelessly flawed. Think about it for a minute. Can you imagine that Jesus endured six trials, a crown of thorns, a Roman scourge, a crucifixion, a spear thrust into His side, the loss of a great deal of blood, going three days without medical attention or food, pushing a two-ton stone away from His tomb’s entrance, and then physically overcoming an armed Roman guard while walking on pierced feet? No! The Swoon theory is ridiculous in the extreme. And yet, amazingly, some people continue to hang their hats on it.

And certainly, the disciples wouldn’t have stolen the body, for why would they choose to suffer and die for a cause they knew to be a lie? While it is conceivable that someone might choose to die for what they know to be the truth, it is inconceivable that hundreds of Jesus’ followers would be willing to die for what they knew to be a lie.

After carefully examining all the evidence, one can only come to the singular conclusion that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead and that He now lives to be our Lord and Savior (Rev. 1:18). And let me emphasize that the resurrection of Christ is not just an Easter-time phenomenon to be celebrated in song and service. Rather, it is a truth that should daily fill us with eternal hope. Not only did the resurrection of Christ transform the disciples from cowards to lions of the faith, but His resurrection still continues to transform lives today. Because Christ lives, the Scripture says, we will live also. Indeed, in an instant.... — Hank Hanegraaff

[It's me, KK, again.] That blue part is notable to me, with regard to the topic of this thread: I hope I'm not the only one who notes the disciples died for their belief in a risen Christ. (The "Islamist"* nut-jobs are willing that some should die for their beliefs too ... it's just that THEY manage to convice other people to strap-on a bomb and die. That's really sick....)

* I use "Islamist" the way Prager and Hewitt do. Not as a description of devout followers of Islam ... but as a description of the terrorist element which is a perversion of the Muslim faith.

- KK

Karl - All good STORIES other than, maybe from the sci fi or fantasy genre, use REAL places in existance at the time that the stories take place, and usually, real historical events as the backdrop to the story. Hence, elements of the Bible are "historically" and "geographically" accurate based on acheological finds and historical documentation. This isn't news.

However, that the actual events in the Bible (e.g. Genesis, Soddam & Gomorrah, Moses' parting of the Red Sea, the Flood, Christ's feeding of so many people with a single loaf of bread, etc., etc.), are fantasy. Parables meant to teach.

That a modern, outwardly intelligent and articulate man who, like you, deals in impericals everyday of his life, actually believes these stories-to the letter-is beyond me...that's where the "faith" comes in, I guess...

Kaptain Karl

11-29-2006, 09:44 PM

That a modern, outwardly intelligent and articulate man who, like you, deals in impericals everyday of his life, actually believes these stories-to the letter-is beyond me...that's where the "faith" comes in, I guess...Yup. Faith....

(And I used to scoff at ALL Sci-Fi. Now I *like* a lot of it....)

Dr. Zakir Naik has proved from the Bible that Jesus did not die on the cross that day.No he did not.

The last thought you left us with. I’m not a 100% on it’s meaning. Are you saying the terrorists are,, screwing up Islam,,,,, or Islam is the teachings that the terrorists use?............If I understand your question ... the latter. My point is the homicide-bombers are being manipulated by "Muslim authorities." Those so-called clerics / Imams / whatever are ... bending ... the Qura'an to suit their evil desires. Then they somehow "bend" the minds of some weak followers to go DO what they, themselves, haven't the nerve to do.... Those "authorities" are who Prager and Hewitt call, "Islamists". (Better?)

- KK

Phil

11-29-2006, 09:55 PM

Yup. Faith....

(And I used to scoff at ALL Sci-Fi. Now I *like* a lot of it....)

I like sci-fi, and some fantasy...but I take them for what they are; good stories that allow one, momentarily, to suspend belief. That's just me, of course.

Mahboob Khan

11-30-2006, 04:42 AM

Kaptain Karl

11-30-2006, 07:43 AM

KK Wrote: "If I understand your question ... the latter. My point is the homicide-bombers are being manipulated by "Muslim authorities." Those so-called clerics / Imams / whatever are ... bending ... the Qura'an to suit their evil desires. Then they somehow "bend" the minds of some weak followers to go DO what they, themselves, haven't the nerve to do.... Those "authorities" are who Prager and Hewitt call, "Islamists". (Better?)"

- KK

Islamists is not a good term. Muslims is good. Muslim -- who follows Islam as his religion .. a deen .. a way of life --.Again, we seem to only "almost connect" with our communication.... I am attempting to focus on the part I bolded from my above quote (that these homicide bombers are influenced to do such evil by "leaders" who are too personally cowardly to "practice what they themselves preach"). And I am attempting to distinguish between those monsterous so-called Muslims ... and the rest of you.

Help me, Mahboob. I need a word -- or two-word phrase -- to describe these nut-job psychos who claim to represent your faith. If "Islamist" isn't a good term, what do you recommend we call them? (And something shorter than "monsterous so-called Muslims" would be helpful.)

The following troubles me more than you can imagine. You seem to contradict yourself in a way I find most disturbing.... I have never condoned suicide bombing even if it is used to achieve freedom from occupying force. Suicide bombing is a sign of weakness and should never be encouraged, tolerated, and sponsored, never. ... later, in the same post, you write ... ... Think from a victim point of view. And there are many situations and many reasons for these persons to become suicide bombers.Mahboob, on one hand you claim to "not condone suicide bombing" ... and on the other hand you turn right around and condone it.

Let's say you are a proud Muslim or proud Christian, or a proud human being. A person or soldier from an occupying force forcibly enters your house, have sex with your teen-age daughter, then shoots her and her family, and set the entire house on fire. What will you do given the fact that you do not have any other means to get "justice". Think from a victim point of view....You've asked me to "put myself in their place," which I appreciate. But there is NO WAY I could justify -- or even claim to "understand" -- the mentality that any glimmer of logic can create an "allowance" that strapping a bomb to myself, wading into a crowd of people -- many of whom had ZERO to do with what was done to my family -- and murdering and maiming them is ... justifiable, understandable, okay, right or "the will of Allah." Mahboob, the mere thought that you can agree or claim to comprehend that mindset makes me have less hope than ever that our two cultures can functionally coexist. I am deeply deeply saddened to read your post, after all these weeks and months of conversation....

... I have said it many times, but you guys are bent upon callimg Muslims and even Islam as violent! This attitude is very dangerous .. and as your John Abi Zaid, General, U.S. Army has said, there is a likelihood of WW3.After what you posted above -- denying agreement with homicide bombers, then contradicting yourself -- I think the danger is more real than I'd ever feared....

You are blaming everything on terrorism without considering the actual causes and remedies.What kind of mind can even conceive of any logical, sympathetic, understandable "cause" for terrorism?

Ultimately, terrorism is 100% ineffective. History demonstrates this.

- KK

Kaptain Karl

11-30-2006, 08:06 AM

KK. When Jesus Christ was put on the Cross what were the exact words he uttered. Those words are still part of the current Bible in Hebrew quotation. I think he said, "O God, why did you forsake me".That's very close to a direct quote.

Can you be kind enough to quote the exact verse number and the text. ...I would like you to quote the exact words he used in Aramaic or Hebrew language.1 - The words appear in Psalm 22 (penned about 1,000 years before Christ was crucified, by David.) This Psalm is eerily accurate and predicts the sacrifice of Jesus.

2 - They are rendered this way by Matthew [27:46] ... At about three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

3 - And this way by Mark [15:34] ... And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lemá sabachtháni?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

The Aramaic is translated "slightly differently" by Matthew and Mark. (And the Romans and Jews at the scene were not that familiar with Aramaic; they thought He was calling out to Elijah, not God.)

- KK

Mahboob Khan

11-30-2006, 10:23 AM

That's very close to a direct quote.

1 - The words appear in Psalm 22 (penned about 1,000 years before Christ was crucified, by David.) This Psalm is eerily accurate and predicts the sacrifice of Jesus.

2 - They are rendered this way by Matthew [27:46] ... At about three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Elí, Elí, lemá sabachtháni?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

3 - And this way by Mark [15:34] ... And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lemá sabachtháni?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

The Aramaic is translated "slightly differently" by Matthew and Mark. (And the Romans and Jews at the scene were not that familiar with Aramaic; they thought He was calling out to Elijah, not God.)

- KK

Thank you KK. This is a miracle of Isa son of Meryam that these original words are there in every translation. First of all, some of you guys have been insulting the word Allah. Now, closely look at these words Eli, Eli, or Eloi, Eloi, My God, My God, or my Allah, my Allah. Eli, Eli, Eloi, Eloi, Allah, Allah. I told you that Aramaic is a sister language of Arabic; thus Jesus Christ uttered the words that actually refer to "O Allah, O Allah why have You forsaken me"? Now let's examine this very quotation of Jesus Christ:

-- O Allah, O Allah, why have You forsaken me?" Any body with a little bit of common sense will tell you that from these words it appears that Jesus was put on the Cross against his will. He did not mean to, he did not intend to go on the Cross. In a sense he is complaining from God as to why He had forgotten him or forsaken him? This also means that he was put on the cross against his will, he was crucified against his will; thus, he never intended to cleanse our sins. Thus, this concept is wrong that Jesus accepted the cross because he wanted to cleanse/wash away our inbuilt sins.

-- And/or these words were uttered by someone other than Jesus Christ -- may be his duplicate or someone who looked like him (illusion). And the Quranic verses I quoted earlier, refer to this fact, "They did not kill him, they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them".

Thank you very much for locating these verses for me.

Mahboob Khan

11-30-2006, 10:30 AM

Again, we seem to only "almost connect" with our communication.... I am attempting to focus on the part I bolded from my above quote (that these homicide bombers are influenced to do such evil by "leaders" who are too personally cowardly to "practice what they themselves preach"). And I am attempting to distinguish between those monsterous so-called Muslims ... and the rest of you.

Help me, Mahboob. I need a word -- or two-word phrase -- to describe these nut-job psychos who claim to represent your faith. If "Islamist" isn't a good term, what do you recommend we call them? (And something shorter than "monsterous so-called Muslims" would be helpful.)

The following troubles me more than you can imagine. You seem to contradict yourself in a way I find most disturbing.... ... later, in the same post, you write ... Mahboob, on one hand you claim to "not condone suicide bombing" ... and on the other hand you turn right around and condone it.

You've asked me to "put myself in their place," which I appreciate. But there is NO WAY I could justify -- or even claim to "understand" -- the mentality that any glimmer of logic can create an "allowance" that strapping a bomb to myself, wading into a crowd of people -- many of whom had ZERO to do with what was done to my family -- and murdering and maiming them is ... justifiable, understandable, okay, right or "the will of Allah." Mahboob, the mere thought that you can agree or claim to comprehend that mindset makes me have less hope than ever that our two cultures can functionally coexist. I am deeply deeply saddened to read your post, after all these weeks and months of conversation....

After what you posted above -- denying agreement with homicide bombers, then contradicting yourself -- I think the danger is more real than I'd ever feared....

What kind of mind can even conceive of any logical, sympathetic, understandable "cause" for terrorism?

Ultimately, terrorism is 100% ineffective. History demonstrates this.

- KK

Sir, your logic is off. I gave you a clear answer. You are mixing the original message of Islam with the actions of some people who are fighting political/territorial battles. You are deliberately twisting the facts.

Yes, I did say that terrorism has no justification; but then at the same time there are political and territorial issues and people are tempted to do what they are doing.

ThePlungerMan

11-30-2006, 11:42 AM

Thank you KK.
For what? Oh I know, to give you another reason to argue against Jesus of The Bible vs. of The Quran.
First of all, some of you guys have been insulting the word Allah. And you have been insulting God.
Now, closely look at these words Eli, Eli, or Eloi, Eloi, My God, My God, or my Allah, my Allah. Eli, Eli, Eloi, Eloi, Allah, Allah. I told you that Aramaic is a sister language of Arabic; thus Jesus Christ uttered the words that actually refer to "O Allah, O Allah why have You forsaken me"? Now let's examine this very quotation of Jesus Christ:
OK,, but with the full knowledge that information forthcoming is from what the bible CLEARLY states as a false teacher, (YOU).
-- O Allah, O Allah, why have You forsaken me?" Any body with a little bit of common sense will tell you that from these words it appears that Jesus was put on the Cross against his will. He did not mean to, he did not intend to go on the Cross. In a sense he is complaining from God as to why He had forgotten him or forsaken him? This also means that he was put on the cross against his will, he was crucified against his will; thus, he never intended to cleanse our sins. Thus, this concept is wrong that Jesus accepted the cross because he wanted to cleanse/wash away our inbuilt sins.
All the scriptures in The Bible that prophesies and/or speak directly to this statement of yours as false will fall on your deaf ears, so why try. In a nut shell, All of above statements are wrong.
God had to withdrawal from His Son at the ‘why have you forsaken me’ part, for this is when all sins were paid for. Part of The Trinity. The part you not only don’t understand, but also the part you refuse to understand.
-- And/or these words were uttered by someone other than Jesus Christ -- may be his duplicate or someone who looked like him (illusion). And the Quranic verses I quoted earlier, refer to this fact, "They did not kill him, they did not crucify him, but it was made to seem so to them".
From these denials of fundamental Biblical teachings and the establishment of a religion of self righteousness follows the Islamic repudiation of the Saviour.
Denying the doctrine of Christ reveals Islam as a deception and an antichrist religion.
Thank you very much for locating these verses for me.
While "Christians" are manifesting their "open mindedness," Muslims are spreading their false religious propaganda under the cover of dialogue.

Phil

11-30-2006, 04:36 PM

The following troubles me more than you can imagine. You seem to contradict yourself in a way I find most disturbing.... ... later, in the same post, you write ... Mahboob, on one hand you claim to "not condone suicide bombing" ... and on the other hand you turn right around and condone it.

You've asked me to "put myself in their place," which I appreciate. But there is NO WAY I could justify -- or even claim to "understand" -- the mentality that any glimmer of logic can create an "allowance" that strapping a bomb to myself, wading into a crowd of people -- many of whom had ZERO to do with what was done to my family -- and murdering and maiming them is ... justifiable, understandable, okay, right or "the will of Allah." Mahboob, the mere thought that you can agree or claim to comprehend that mindset makes me have less hope than ever that our two cultures can functionally coexist. I am deeply deeply saddened to read your post, after all these weeks and months of conversation....

After what you posted above -- denying agreement with homicide bombers, then contradicting yourself -- I think the danger is more real than I'd ever feared....

What kind of mind can even conceive of any logical, sympathetic, understandable "cause" for terrorism?

Ultimately, terrorism is 100% ineffective. History demonstrates this.

- KK
While I agree with most of what you said, KK, I'm not sure what the point is of "debating" this with a fundumentalist Muslim. Mahboob's response to your comments is, typical of him, wishy washy and lame.

I don't agree with your last sentence, though. "100% ineffective"? Really? So you cannot remember, or do not know of an instance where terrorism has been effective? Not even one?

Let me help you here:

-1983 car bombing of US Embassy in Beirut
-1984 car bombing of US Marine barracks in Beirut
(Both incidents led to the US' humiliating retreat from Beirut)
-Tamil Tigers suicide and terrorist campaign; although the Tamil's objectives haven't been met yet-that of an autonomous state-their attacks have been VERY effective.
-Maoist guerilla/terror campagn in Nepel...they've got the government they want, or close to it now...the Nepalese gov't has made peace.
-Israeli bombing of the King David Hotel (post WW II-I forgot the date) - over 90 people killed, and this and some other incidents by the Irgun led to the British getting out of Israel for good.

There are many other "borderline" cases, such as the Vietcong's murderous campaigns against the S. Vietnamese rural population...but this was a war of independence, with a military objective, so I wouldn't call them terrorists, based on what we consider terrorists nowadays-not any more than I'd consider William Calley's actions at Me Lai "terrorist". Both Calley and the Vietcong, however, are war criminals. Context is everything, I think.

Don't forget that the US has also sponsored terror campaigns; particularly in Latin America and Asia. Those have been, mostly, ineffective. We can go around about the definition of a terrorist, but one thing is sure...if the group kills innocent civilians, for whatever "cause", in order to intimidate and "terrorize" and make compliant the general population, then they are probably terrorists, regardless where their support is coming from

drakulie

11-30-2006, 05:34 PM

Jesus Christ:

-- O Allah, O Allah, why have You forsaken me?" Any body with a little bit of common sense will tell you that from these words it appears that Jesus was put on the Cross against his will. He did not mean to, he did not intend to go on the Cross. In a sense he is complaining from God as to why He had forgotten him or forsaken him? This also means that he was put on the cross against his will, he was crucified against his will; thus, he never intended to cleanse our sins. Thus, this concept is wrong that Jesus accepted the cross because he wanted to cleanse/wash away our inbuilt sins.

The reason Jesus said and felt "God forsaking" him was because he had to endure all the pain of the "world" in order to cleanse all the sins of the world. The physical pain and torture he endured was not enough, rather he also had to endure the "mental pain" of being "forsaken" by God---of feeling all alone and abondoned. What greater pain can one feel than to be "forsaken" by his father? The one who was suppose to love him the most. When he felt "forsaken" he felt as though God abondoned him. This was the worse pain Jesus experienced on the cross--not the physical agony. At this point, "it was done".

Bye, bye! have a nice day!

Mahboob Khan

11-30-2006, 06:10 PM

The reason Jesus said and felt "God forsaking" him was because he had to endure all the pain of the "world" in order to cleanse all the sins of the world. The physical pain and torture he endured was not enough, rather he also had to endure the "mental pain" of being "forsaken" by God---of feeling all alone and abondoned. What greater pain can one feel than to be "forsaken" by his father? The one who was suppose to love him the most. When he felt "forsaken" he felt as though God abondoned him. This was the worse pain Jesus experienced on the cross--not the physical agony. At this point, "it was done".

Bye, bye! have a nice day!

I understand. And I like your polite response. Please read articles posted by The Plungerman. He has been saying bad things about Allah, and I invited your attention to the words that Jesus uttered while on Cross (courtesy KK):

Mathew: 27:46: At about three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"

Mark 15:34: And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?".

Altogether four words were used by Jesus on Cross and out of four, first three words "Eloi, Eloi, lema" or "Eli, Eli, lema" are also Arabic words (these words are the same in both Aramaic and Arabic languages because both are sister languages) meaning "Allah, Allah, why". When you say in Arabic, "lema da hada" which means why is this or what is this.

I have said it all along the religion with God is Al-Islam and Jesus took the name of Muslim God Eloi, Eloi, or Eli, Eli, or to be more precise Allah, Allah. Thus, Muslim God Allah is also the God (Allah) of Jesus Christ and his followers. And we are his true followers. Good Muslims are superior Christians than the Christians.

And remember, KK, D-Man, and Plungerman have repeatedly stated that Jesus was God, Jesus IS God. If he was/is God Himself then why he said, "O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?". Jesus forsake himself? Or God who was Jesus forsake Jesus? Or Jesus forsake God? It is also very clear from the words uttered that Jesus did not go onto the Cross willingly; and there is a great probability that someone else was put on the cross .. someone who resembled Jesus .. someone who looked alike! Sir, I humbly invite you to embrace Islam and meet your original Jesus Christ; Isa son of Meryam!

CanadianChic

11-30-2006, 06:16 PM

I understand. And I like your polite response. Please read articles posted by The Plungerman. He has been saying bad things about Allah, and I invited your attention to the words that Jesus uttered while on Cross (courtesy KK):

Mathew: 27:46: At about three in the afternoon Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?"

Mark 15:34: And at three Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?".

Altogether four words were used by Jesus on Cross and out of four, first three words "Eloi, Eloi, lema" or "Eli, Eli, lema" are also Arabic words (these words are the same in both Aramaic and Arabic languages because both are sister languages) meaning "Allah, Allah, why". When you say in Arabic, "lema da hada" which means why is this or what is this.

I have said it all along the religion with God is Al-Islam and Jesus took the name of Muslim God Eloi, Eloi, or Eli, Eli, or to be more precise Allah, Allah. Thus, Muslim God Allah is also the God (Allah) of Jesus Christ and his followers. And we are his true followers. Good Muslims are superior Christians than the Christians.

And remember, KK, D-Man, and Plungerman have repeatedly stated that Jesus was God, Jesus IS God. If he was/is God Himself then why he said, "O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?". Jesus forsake himself? Or God who was Jesus forsake Jesus? Or Jesus forsake God? It is also very clear from the words uttered that Jesus did not go onto the Cross willingly; and there is a great probability that someone else was put on the cross .. someone who resembled Jesus .. someone who looked alike! Sir, I humbly invite you to embrace Islam and meet your original Jesus Christ; Isa son of Meryam!

Mahboob, they have explained this to you over and over and over and over again. Do you seriously not understand this concept or just playing games, because if not the latter, then you simply do not understand Christian faith at all and if not the former then you are exhausting!!

CanadianChic

12-01-2006, 11:29 PM

Where did you go Mahboob? Don't you want to stay and play? You sure are fierce when KK is not here to correct your inaccurate ramblings, but yet you run when directly questioned. Is it because I'm a woman? Or simply because I'm not buying what you're selling?

Run Forest Run.......

Kaptain Karl

12-02-2006, 07:54 AM

And remember, KK, D-Man, and Plungerman have repeatedly stated that Jesus was God, Jesus IS God.One *might* think you are "getting it" at this point. (But wait....)

If he was/is God Himself then why he said, "O God, O God, why have you forsaken me?". ...(He's being coy.) Mahboob, I've told you Jesus was fully God and fully Man. The Man-part of Jesus was on the cross ... sacrificed for our sins ... calling-out to God, the Father from the cross.

It is also very clear from the words uttered that Jesus did not go onto the Cross willingly; and there is a great probability that someone else was put on the cross .. someone who resembled Jesus .. someone who looked alike!What a bunch of ... hooey!
1 - Jesus/Man's "struggle" over whether to go through with God's plan was finished in the Garden of Gethsemene. There, Jesus/Man submitted to God's will when he prayed to God the Father, "nevertheless, not My will, but Yours, be done." [Luke 22:42] Yes, He went to the cross willingly, but as Jesus/Man, it would be foolishness to expect Him to have gone to the cross "happily"....
2 - The Bible records too many eye-witnesses (including Mary, herself) that it was Jesus on the cross ... Jesus who died ... Jesus who arose from the dead. (But you believe Mary was fooled by an imposter...!??) Hundreds of people saw him crucified. Over 500 people saw the resurrected Jesus.

- KK

Kaptain Karl

12-02-2006, 09:24 AM

While I agree with most of what you said, KK, I'm not sure what the point is of "debating" this with a fundumentalist Muslim. Mahboob's response to your comments is, typical of him, wishy washy and lame.I understand -- and share -- much of your appraisal. I originally chose to accept Mahboob's expressed desire to "understand" on face-value. Especially in his last several posts, he has revealed ... other motives.

I don't agree with your last sentence, though. "100% ineffective"? Really? So you cannot remember, or do not know of an instance where terrorism has been effective? Not even one?I pondered my own post many minutes prior to clicking "Submit Reply." Along with some of the events you mentioned, I thought of the Islamist bombings in Spain and how they successfully altered the recent Spanish elections.

I'm going to stick by my statement ... and hang-on to my qualifier, "ultimately". I think terrorism has been successful in the short-run.... Maybe my statement is as much a prayer that it will not be ultimately successful.

We can go around about the definition of a terrorist, but one thing is sure...if the group kills innocent civilians, for whatever "cause", in order to intimidate and "terrorize" and make compliant the general population, then they are probably terrorists, regardless where their support is coming fromI think yours is a pretty functional definition.

______________

Look, any revelations of the Bible as they match with Qura'an, we believe them to be from God. Any text which does not match with Qura'an is a corrupted text.(As Plunger has been saying) you could have saved us all a lot of time and energy if you'd stated this about 700 posts ago. You are NOT seeking understanding. You have been "playing coy" with me and many others, here.

Mahboob, I am no longer responding to any of your posts regarding Christianity. If you wish to engage me in further discourse, e-mail me.

- KK