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Joeyg
11-16-2006, 11:44 AM
I know that there are many board contributors that play league tennis in NorCal. I am interested in your opinions about the recent scandal in the Men's 4.0 Nationals. I know and play with several of these guys at Clubsport Fremont.

Given the amount of sandbagging and recruiting that goes on at the 4.0 level by certain captains, none of what has transpired is shocking. I think it was just a matter of time before this whole situation blew up! I doubt seriously that the USTA has the guts to do anything about this, but time will tell.

I personally have been asked by captains to try and get my rating down to 4.0. What a joke! I have played league since 1999 and have always been around the top of the 4.5's. I know several 4.5's whose stated desire is to get their rating down at any means and go to Nationals at the 4.0 level. I find this type of behaviour to be reprehensible.

I want everyone to know who this is coming from. My name is Joe Grech. I coach at Chabot College in Hayward. I play at Clubsport almost every day and can be reached at 510-651-8653 or by emailing me at joegrech@sbcglobal.net.


Once again, I would like the players in NorCal to sound off about this and any other gripe you have with the USTA and or captains, etc.

eunjam
11-16-2006, 12:01 PM
i am not part of norcal, but i just want to say kudos.....and thank you for YOUR integrity!!

may karma and or any type of higher power bless you.

unfortunately though, this whole sandbagging thing has existed for a long long long time. it wasn't the first and won't be the last.

the USTA is run just like any tyranny or corporate culture.

there are rights outside of the organization, but inside, it's don't ask, don't tell. and if you do make a ruckus, you will be ostracized.

but i do hope something does happen.

it will be great that the netizens of TW has made a huge impact.

Dr. Van Nostrand
11-16-2006, 01:45 PM
If USTA Norcal did do anything to discipline the team or individual players would it get much, if any publicity. They can't change the past but they could certainly suspend as many of the team as they like from USTA league or tournament play for I would think as long as they like. It would seem that a 5 or even 10 year suspension would be warranted if all the idiotic things that these guys have been accused of is true.
I would like to get to play in the national championships some day but it would never be that important to cheat to the extent that this team appears to have done. They make Barry Bonds look like the pinnicale of ethics, morality and fair play.

cak
11-16-2006, 01:56 PM
Considering what members of that team did last year on their 4.5 team, without NorCal doing anything, I'm convinced NorCal has no intention of doing anything about that team this year either. I believe National will have to step in and discipline them.

NorCal does post what players are disciplined and for how long on their website. They no longer post why.

dtmmfam
11-17-2006, 08:56 AM
fremont team? I thought it was bakesto that went to 4.0 nationals. Anyway, it's true that a lot of the players on the team are under rated. I know one guy on the team that tried playing 4.5 but his win/loss ratio was very low. However, his win/loss ratio on the 4.0 was 100%. So does that make him a 4.0 or a 4.5?

cak
11-17-2006, 09:15 AM
The overlap between the Backesto Park 4.0 team and the Clubsport Fremont 4.0 team from 2004 that went to Nationals is quite significant. I had heard Clubsport Fremont would not support that team, and that is why they moved to Backesto Park. I have also heard folks on the NorCal board calling for an investigation of sandbagging for the 2005 Backesto Park team where the players were purposely throwing games to get their ratings back down. That team did not finish the season, and the investigation never took place, as NorCal decided not to send the complaint on to National. The players did get bumped down by the computer, and showed up on that team and in Hawaii.

I don't think those players are 4.0 or 4.5s. Either rating would imply they are USTA tennis players. I don't think they belong in USTA.

kylebarendrick
11-17-2006, 09:55 AM
Clubsport Fremont has a significant reputation for sandbagging at all levels. Unfortunately, until Norcal is willing/able to send verifiers to matches this will continue.

On my 3.0 team this year we had two players disqualified by the computer. While I don't believe these players had self-rated inappropriately, I was fairly impressed with the computer system's ability to pick off the best players on our team and didn't have any major complaints. That is, until we played at Sectionals...

At our section championships, the team from Copper River had a self-rated singles player that was not only not a 3.0, he probably wasn't a 3.5 either. The first team that played Copper River filed a grievance at the tournament. It was denied. The second team that played them filed a grievance. It was denied. Rumours were going around that the leadership at Norcal wanted to field a strong team at nationals and were, accordingly, turning a blind eye to the issue. We played Copper River last, and this player beat one of our best 6-2, 6-1, looked bored in the process, and likely threw a game or two to make it that close. We didn't file a grievance since we ended up winning the day, but this guy was far better than either of the players we had disqualified and the selective enforcement was extremelly frustrating. It was especially frustrating since this was at Sectionals where there are USTA officials present to watch matches.

I'm not too worried about the computer system, since players with computer ratings will eventually get moved - even if it is a season later than we'd all like. USTA league tennis is for fun and I can handle getting whipped now and then. But trying to judge self-rated players by computer is an impossibility. When a team files a grievance against a self-rated player, USTA must send a verifier to watch that player - especially if more than one team accuses the same player. They can bill the team filing the grievance to cut down on nuisance claims if necessary.

Rafa's best friend
11-17-2006, 10:15 AM
Clubsport Fremont has a significant reputation for sandbagging at all levels. Unfortunately, until Norcal is willing/able to send verifiers to matches this will continue.

On my 3.0 team this year we had two players disqualified by the computer. While I don't believe these players had self-rated inappropriately, I was fairly impressed with the computer system's ability to pick off the best players on our team and didn't have any major complaints. That is, until we played at Sectionals...

At our section championships, the team from Copper River had a self-rated singles player that was not only not a 3.0, he probably wasn't a 3.5 either. The first team that played Copper River filed a grievance at the tournament. It was denied. The second team that played them filed a grievance. It was denied. Rumours were going around that the leadership at Norcal wanted to field a strong team at nationals and were, accordingly, turning a blind eye to the issue. We played Copper River last, and this player beat one of our best 6-2, 6-1, looked bored in the process, and likely threw a game or two to make it that close. We didn't file a grievance since we ended up winning the day, but this guy was far better than either of the players we had disqualified and the selective enforcement was extremelly frustrating. It was especially frustrating since this was at Sectionals where there are USTA officials present to watch matches.

I'm not too worried about the computer system, since players with computer ratings will eventually get moved - even if it is a season later than we'd all like. USTA league tennis is for fun and I can handle getting whipped now and then. But trying to judge self-rated players by computer is an impossibility. When a team files a grievance against a self-rated player, USTA must send a verifier to watch that player - especially if more than one team accuses the same player. They can bill the team filing the grievance to cut down on nuisance claims if necessary.

I also do agree that self-rating system is not working. And i also agree that we have local USTA officials that are corrupt and biased, and this is a problem in differnt regions as well, for example Chicago area. In chicago area, we have practically same 1-2 teams that win the district or region every single year due to the fact that the players that win 90-100% of their matches and sometimes dominate their opponents who are computer rated 4.0 level, do not get bumped up at the end of the season. We have teams in 2 different disctricts that virtually win every single season, Hannover and Oak brook. And they virtually field same players every season and they will win practically 99-100% of their matches with even blowouts against players that are computer rated to be 4.0. But every year they stay at 4.0 and not get bumped up. I have asked this question before, and the answer was they have not yet gone to the nationals and won the championships. And i have seen and played against these two teams, and about 50% of their players belong in 4.5 level.( i speak from playing experience at USTA 4.0 level for 11 years). The main problem with corruption such as this is that it turns off potential USTA interested team player from joining and keeps the USTA team tennis from growing furthur in that disctict. We need to clean up the act at local level first then and only then we can fix the problems in the nationals...

dtmmfam
11-17-2006, 06:10 PM
the bottom line is that people will go to great lengths to win at any cost. There are a lot of people that are more interested in winning than having fun. I played an 8.5 combo league match last week and the #1 doubles players almost got into a fight. It just stopped being fun and in the end, no one shook hands. There's very little that the USTA can do to stop the corruption. You'd have to change the way people are.

Joeyg
11-18-2006, 08:21 AM
I would love to hear from NorCal members with their opinions about the USTA's handling of this situation. I am very aware of the Backesto Park team's problems in NorCal on all of the levels, 4.0,4.5,5.0 and have played with or against most of the guys and consider some of them to be friends of mine.

I think that if the allegations are true, perhaps a lifetime ban for the player or players who tried to play as someone else is appropriate, and 1 year bans for others that were involved.

I want as many opinions as possible as I am going to forward a copy of this thread to both USTA NorCal and National. I do not think we should let this transgression go unpunished. Enough is enough!

benh2023
11-18-2006, 12:24 PM
I was a member of the NorCAL men's 3.5 team that went to the Nationals and was fortunate enough to win there....I am also familiar with some of the Backesto players and I have spent some time practicing there, as I live in San Jose. At this point in time there is much speculation about what consequences may be forthcoming given the serious allegations that may (or may not) have occurred at the 4.0 Nationals. I would suggest we allow the USTA to finish their investigation (and yes, there is an investigation of this matter under way) and then see if the punishment fits the crime. Personally, I've played in NorCal league tennis for at least 15 years on a variety of teams in different districts and at different levels, and I've never heard of something as strange as this situation going on before!!! It's important not to paint all of NorCal with a broad brush...because there are hundreds of really good, solid, competitive players that continue to play by the rules...and enjoy the game for what it is.....just tennis.......I, for one, will be very interested to see what sanctions may be forthcoming out if this if the allegations are indeed proved. Ben from NorCal.

BreakPoint
11-18-2006, 12:54 PM
Could someone please explain in a little more detail exactly what happened at the Men's 4.0 Nationals? What "strange" things are you guys referring to and what "crime(s)" were committted? Thanks.

AndrewD
11-18-2006, 04:32 PM
Could someone please explain in a little more detail exactly what happened at the Men's 4.0 Nationals? What "strange" things are you guys referring to and what "crime(s)" were committted? Thanks.

This thread might help, although it's just as likely to give you a headache (hopefully, the guys play better than they punctuate LOL)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=103321
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=103896

max8176
11-19-2006, 01:03 AM
Hi all,

I am a 4.0 team captain in San Francisco and this past season was my second year as a team captain but I have been playing league for a few year now. My first year team was "middle in the pack" and last season my team lost in the first round local playoff. I also captained a 7.5M last summer that advanced to Sectionals.

A couple of weeks ago, one of my current players on my 7.5 combo team who is a captain at Clubsport FR told me that Backesto 4.0 team had cheated at Nationals. I was extrememly surprised because even though I do not know anyone on that team I have heard that they really have a strong team. Some of my other combo team players were actually on another East Bay team and played them in the Sectionals confirmed that. I am even more surprised that they actually cheated by using someone not on the roster. I guess these people really have gut but just use it in a wrong way!!

I am surprised that USTA has not done anything so far yet as I can see some of the players from this cheating team is already playing on other league teams (combo, mixed, etc.). After all, it's Norcal we are talking about!! All they know is how to make money out of the rating system.

Ben, I believe two of my friends are also on your team. You said your 3.5 team won the Nationals, right?

chess9
11-19-2006, 06:55 AM
Cheating occurs everywhere in sports, business, churches, government (ahem). No one should be surprised that nothing is being done about this little corner of CHEATDOM.

Figure these larger cheats going unpunished:

1. Human growth hormone cannot be detected unless it's used shortly before testing;
2. Ditto for insulin use;
3. Ditto for most steroid use unless an expensive test is used to look for exogenous steroids.
4. The amatuer ranks are loaded with drug cheats. (I could be on hGh and steroids and amphetamines and god knows what else and no one would find out unless I snuffed it.)
5. Tax cheating is widespread in this country.
6. People cheat every day on their sick days at work, costing employers millions of dollars each day.
7. Politicians lie almost every day to their constituents, mostly by what they DON'T say about what they've done.
8. CEOs lie on their balance sheets so their stock option compensation goes up, their share values rise, or for other reasons. This is a wide-spread practice.
9. Ministers are schtupping their congregations by stealing money and by having sex with parishioners.

So, a little nibbling at the edges by some over-eager tennis players doesn't seem so bad, eh?

Frankly, I think USTA has done the tennis playing community a huge disservice by implementing rated play and rated team play (which is an order of magnitude worse than rated play). I'd scrap the entire system and start all over again. We need a system that encourages people to IMPROVE and PLAY. We don't need a system that encourages lieing and cheating and is, at heart, a con game.

Just my humble opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong. No tennis balls have been harmed during the production of this Sermon from the Mount of Platitudes.

:)

-Robert

benh2023
11-19-2006, 11:55 AM
Yep, I had a few guys on my team from foggy SF!!!!! In fact, the day we played the local play-offs against Pleasanton was probably one of the hottest days of the year!!!! Roger, Jeff, and Conrad were wilting....poor guys!!!!! They're used to hitting around in South City in the fog and drizzle...!!! Good luck with your combo team. That national team was really special....Rog and I have been playing together for a number of years as well as some of the guys on that team....7 different nationalities!!! A bunch of interesting languages!!! There was a very special bond between all of the players on that team....of course, practicing together for three-four days per week since April...and making it through all the play-offs.....that created a very unique team....and our captain (captain Hank) is pretty legendary in NorCal for being super organized.....and he had a standing rule...no practice...no play!!!!!! So, I guess after working so hard to get to the Nationals legitimately...a lot of guys will be pretty bummed out if the investigation bears out that NorCal really did cheat.....but, it's being investigated as we speak by the USTA....so I'll withhold judgement until all the facts are in. Ben.

max8176
11-21-2006, 11:04 PM
Yeah, I have been playing with Rog and Jeff for a number of years now and we have been in the same team together before. Jeff is in my combo team right now and we are doing very well. I am glad that the latest rating does not affect combo. Sure, I think every time a team advance beyond district is very special. I am happy for Rog and Jeff as well as Hank cause he has worked very hard for the National title. I really hope that Norcal will do something about the cheating incident because Norcal has really given me a negative image in dealing with situation like this over the years. It seem that they only care about making money and looking out for themselves rather than caring for their players.

CrocodileRock
11-24-2006, 12:52 PM
I posted this same information on the Cheating at Nationals thread, but wanted to post it here too, so more people know about it. The tournament director's name was Dave Schobel, and I talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He told me that it will take months to resolve, but here is what they are looking at now. 1: a lifetime ban from USTA for the whole team; 2: picture ID required at virtually all USTA events from now on; and 3: a wild card entry back into nationals next year for Southern.

What I can't understand is why the delay. In our league, if a player is disqualified, then any wins that he has become losses. If that were the case at nationals, then NorCal would have lost the flight to Southern. But for some reason, NorCal was allowed to take the court on Sunday. The only thing I can assume is that USTA has never caught anyone doing this before, and wasn't sure how to handle it. Also, since it was the weekend, I guess they couldnt just call the home office and get a decision.

Dr. Van Nostrand
11-24-2006, 05:21 PM
I posted this same information on the Cheating at Nationals thread, but wanted to post it here too, so more people know about it. The tournament director's name was Dave Schobel, and I talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He told me that it will take months to resolve, but here is what they are looking at now. 1: a lifetime ban from USTA for the whole team; 2: picture ID required at virtually all USTA events from now on; and 3: a wild card entry back into nationals next year for Southern.

Months to resolve? What the heck are they waiting for? A lifetime ban for the whole team is probably not fair since I doubt every team member was involved and/or aware of the cheating. Even if a team member was aware of what was going on they could not necesarily have prevented the captain was cheating.

CrocodileRock
11-24-2006, 07:07 PM
I respectfully disagree Dr. Even though the whole team may not have thought of the idea, or even approved of it, they all knew it was happening and chose not to report it to the officials. In that regard, they were all participating in the scam, and should be held accountable. I think that lifetime ban for all of them is too harsh a punishment, but would be happy with 10 years. However, maybe I am just lenient. What do others think?

grimmbomb21
11-24-2006, 09:35 PM
double post. sorry.

grimmbomb21
11-24-2006, 09:37 PM
On my 3.0 team this year we had two players disqualified by the computer. While I don't believe these players had self-rated inappropriately, I was fairly impressed with the computer system's ability to pick off the best players on our team and didn't have any major complaints. That is, until we played at Sectionals...

At our section championships, the team from Copper River had a self-rated singles player that was not only not a 3.0, he probably wasn't a 3.5 either. The first team that played Copper River filed a grievance at the tournament. It was denied. The second team that played them filed a grievance. It was denied. Rumours were going around that the leadership at Norcal wanted to field a strong team at nationals and were, accordingly, turning a blind eye to the issue. We played Copper River last, and this player beat one of our best 6-2, 6-1, looked bored in the process, and likely threw a game or two to make it that close. We didn't file a grievance since we ended up winning the day, but this guy was far better than either of the players we had disqualified and the selective enforcement was extremelly frustrating. It was especially frustrating since this was at Sectionals where there are USTA officials present to watch matches.



LOL! Are you kidding?? You think your best player was a 3.0?? No way. I watched their match. Yes, our man did look bored when he played, he's a laid back guy. But don't come here and try to tell these guys that your player was a legit 3.0. I thought that they were both hitting some shots that a 3.0 wouldn't make.

Also, each of the other teams we beat that weekend had at least one guy that was not a 3.0! Our two best doubles players ended up getting moved up at the end of the season, along with our number one singles.

BTW, you can thank those two doubles players for leaving early and not playing Sunday. Had we not forfeited their match, we would have moved on and won Nationals.

;)

kylebarendrick
11-25-2006, 07:38 AM
LOL! Are you kidding?? You think your best player was a 3.0?? No way. I watched their match. Yes, our man did look bored when he played, he's a laid back guy. But don't come here and try to tell these guys that your player was a legit 3.0. I thought that they were both hitting some shots that a 3.0 wouldn't make.;)

You'll get no argument from me - and that's part of the problem. Our guy, who really does have a better game than a 3.0, was blown away by another "3.0". If our guy didn't belong at 3.0, then yours probably didn't belong at 3.5. Either way, the USTA officials were on hand to make ratings corrections and they couldn't be bothered with it.

Anyway, it's too bad you defaulted the third line - we had put our strongest doubles line in that spot.

grimmbomb21
11-25-2006, 09:10 AM
You'll get no argument from me - and that's part of the problem. Our guy, who really does have a better game than a 3.0, was blown away by another "3.0". If our guy didn't belong at 3.0, then yours probably didn't belong at 3.5. Either way, the USTA officials were on hand to make ratings corrections and they couldn't be bothered with it.

Anyway, it's too bad you defaulted the third line - we had put our strongest doubles line in that spot.

BTW, how did you guys do at nationals? And what was it like? Were there a lot of people there?

kylebarendrick
11-25-2006, 02:42 PM
BTW, how did you guys do at nationals? And what was it like? Were there a lot of people there?

We took 4th at nationals. We played well in the round-robin portion, beating two of the three teams we played, to make the semi-finals. We then came up against the Puerto Rican team. Right from the first serve of the first match it was clear that we had no chance. They were definitely a solid group of 3.5s! It was a lot of fun, there were a lot of really good players, and I have no need to do it again.

Eviscerator
11-25-2006, 04:04 PM
I also do agree that self-rating system is not working.

IT DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER AND CAPTAIN AS TO WHETHER IT WORKS OR NOT. That said, it can be abused easier than the old system of having to get rated. I think those days are gone because the new system is making them more money.



In chicago area, we have practically same 1-2 teams that win the district or region every single year due to the fact that the players that win 90-100% of their matches and sometimes dominate their opponents who are computer rated 4.0 level, do not get bumped up at the end of the season. We have teams in 2 different disctricts that virtually win every single season, Hannover and Oak brook. And they virtually field same players every season and they will win practically 99-100% of their matches with even blowouts against players that are computer rated to be 4.0. But every year they stay at 4.0 and not get bumped up. I have asked this question before, and the answer was they have not yet gone to the nationals and won the championships.

This will sound like I am defending the system, when in reality I am trying to give some perspective. Lets assume that your % figures are correct. Those same players might be going to the regionals and getting clocked by players on a team that then goes to the sectionals, and those players in turn get clocked. In theory, all the ratings trickle down from the nationals. Additionally keep in mind that while player X is rated "4.0", there is a scale some people are not aware of. For instance, one player might be a 3.6 level player and lose badly to a 3.9 level player. The score indicates a blow out by one 4.0 vs. another 4.0, but in reality that is probably close to the way the score should turn out. So the 3.6 player is barely above the 3.5 level where as the other player is close to the top of the 4.0 level.
Also some players get their rating from playing tournaments yet the competition in the leagues can be much weaker or stronger depending on the region. For instance I have a student who is at the top of the 4.5 level in tourneys. He plays with a few local league players who are 4.0. He loses more than 50% of the time against them and wonders why. Down here in S Florida, the better players who participate in the NTRP play the leagues while up in Central Florida the better players play NTRP tourneys.


When you go on to talk about corruption and the like, keep in mind that the computer generated ratings are fairly standardized. So unless someone is going into the tennislink system and altering the stats, players with a computer generated rating should be close to where they are listed NTRP wise. It is the self rated players that tend to cause the most problems since they have not been vetted by the computer. The dynamic NTRP system seems to be helping to a degree, but it will never be able to catch all the players who wish to cheat the system.

Rafa's best friend
11-25-2006, 04:14 PM
I also do agree that self-rating system is not working.

IT DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER AND CAPTAIN AS TO WHETHER IT WORKS OR NOT. That said, it can be abused easier than the old system of having to get rated. I think those days are gone because the new system is making them more money.



In chicago area, we have practically same 1-2 teams that win the district or region every single year due to the fact that the players that win 90-100% of their matches and sometimes dominate their opponents who are computer rated 4.0 level, do not get bumped up at the end of the season. We have teams in 2 different disctricts that virtually win every single season, Hannover and Oak brook. And they virtually field same players every season and they will win practically 99-100% of their matches with even blowouts against players that are computer rated to be 4.0. But every year they stay at 4.0 and not get bumped up. I have asked this question before, and the answer was they have not yet gone to the nationals and won the championships.

This will sound like I am defending the system, when in reality I am trying to give some perspective. Lets assume that your % figures are correct. Those same players might be going to the regionals and getting clocked by players on a team that then goes to the sectionals, and those players in turn get clocked. In theory, all the ratings trickle down from the nationals. Additionally keep in mind that while player X is rated "4.0", there is a scale some people are not aware of. For instance, one player might be a 3.6 level player and lose badly to a 3.9 level player. The score indicates a blow out by one 4.0 vs. another 4.0, but in reality that is probably close to the way the score should turn out. So the 3.6 player is barely above the 3.5 level where as the other player is close to the top of the 4.0 level.
Also some players get their rating from playing tournaments yet the competition in the leagues can be much weaker or stronger depending on the region. For instance I have a student who is at the top of the 4.5 level in tourneys. He plays with a few local league players who are 4.0. He loses more than 50% of the time against them and wonders why. Down here in S Florida, the better players who participate in the NTRP play the leagues while up in Central Florida the better players play NTRP tourneys.


When you go on to talk about corruption and the like, keep in mind that the computer generated ratings are fairly standardized. So unless someone is going into the tennislink system and altering the stats, players with a computer generated rating should be close to where they are listed NTRP wise. It is the self rated players that tend to cause the most problems since they have not been vetted by the computer. The dynamic NTRP system seems to be helping to a degree, but it will never be able to catch all the players who wish to cheat the system.

You are obviously not reading everything i written. People do get bumped up but they appeal and they get granted what they want, it is corrupted in Chicago area. Normally i would not care about this kind of idiot corruptness but this is turning off many would be USTA players from joining the 4.0 league. so the number of teams in chicago area is shrinking. Where as in previous region, the league is growing so fast there has tobe 3 division in one city, a much smaller city. And as soon as i moved up here, i can see the corruptness of the level immediately. And it is ignorant people like you that allow the corruption as well. How are we ever going to fix the system with people like you around ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????:sad:

Eviscerator
11-25-2006, 04:24 PM
And it is ignorant people like you that allow the corruption as well. How are we ever going to fix the system with people like you around ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????:sad:

You are personally insulting/attacking me, but I cannot imagine why:confused:

I am trying to help give you a different perspective and possibly educate you on the system as I am familiar with it. You are therefore either way too emotional about the subject, very immature, or a combination of the two. Try not to lash out at some trying to help frame the systems +'s and -'s and give you a different perspective.

Rafa's best friend
11-25-2006, 04:27 PM
You are personally insulting/attacking me, but I cannot imagine why:confused:

I am trying to help give you a different perspective and possibly educate you on the system as I am familiar with it. You are therefore either way too emotional about the subject, very immature, or a combination of the two. Try not to lash out at some trying to help frame the systems +'s and -'s and give you a different perspective.

OK, if i insulted you i truly Apologize, but the Corruption in Chicago area is so bad, i take the subject matter passionately. I moved from a city where USTA system was fair and very few sandbaggers exist and USTA league was growing and live with energy and people couldn't wait to start up a new team and so on. What is going on Chicago is truly sad in a great city like this..........................:sad:

CrocodileRock
11-25-2006, 04:42 PM
OK, so any system can be abused if someone really makes up their mind.

Under the verification system, a player could lie on his profile sheet, tank in front of the verifier, and get a rating of whatever he wanted.

Under the self-rating system, a player can lie on the questions the computer asks, and get whatever rating he wants.

Under the computer rating system, a player can intentionally lose matches in one year so that he keeps the rating for next year.

I play tennis for fun, exercise, weight control, etc., and no cheater can stop me from that.

gokou703
11-25-2006, 06:33 PM
I'd like to comment on the 4.0 sandbagging going on in Norcal leagues. btw Joe Grech (Joeyg) was my tennis coach at Chabot College. It's not surprising to me what happened in the 4.0 national championships. I play Norcal 4.0 league and can say that there are a lot of legitimate strong 4.0 players, but there are also a good amount of players who are at the least strong 4.5 players. I don't really have a problem with players that do have a computer 4.0 ranking and have just recently improved their game to a 4.5 level. It bugs me to know that I just played a former division 2 player, or an international player who's definitely playing a level or two lower than they should. A captain once self rated me at 3.5 and when I commented that I would probably get in trouble if I played at 3.5 he asked me throw a match!(I quit that team btw) For me that was just disgusting, and totally went against my efforts to actually improve my game and become the best tennis player I could be.
So I think there is a fine line of what is acceptable and what is not. I personally believe in playing at a level until you know that you can consistently beat the field. It is at that point though when you should go up a level. That's why I'm for computer ranked players dominating for a short while then going up. When it comes down to it, if you’ve already dominated at that level or any level higher or equivalent, do everyone else a favor and play at your respective level.

alwaysatnet
11-27-2006, 02:27 PM
I played a few years ago on a 4.0 team from Napa that went to nationals and it was taken for granted that you had to have several players that might be bumped up in order to get in the playoffs to begin with. The line of deliniation between a strong 4.0 and a 4.5 when you get to the national level isn't very clear at all.Of course there are always the sandbaggers. Like the poor, we will always have them among us. The only way to catch one, and they are almost always the singles players, is when one sandbagger has to play another one. Then, there is no way to sandbag under those circumstances.Scrutiny at the regional level is the only way to weed out the cheaters.

netman
11-29-2006, 01:12 PM
Enjoyed reading this thread. We have the same sandbagging issues in the Southeast and I'm sure every region has them. Its statistically amazing how in a "level skill" league, the same teams make the playoffs almost every season, even when they have to replace bumped players. Captains of those teams have told me it is actually a pretty simple equation. When someone gets bumped you go out looking for unrated players. Say you are a 4.0 team. Then the trick is find 4.5 (or even better, weak 5.0) players who are rusty from a layoff. Most of us are very modest when it comes to self-rating our own abilities, so rusty 4.5s truly believe they are really 4.0s (or even 3.5s). And they may be right at the beginning of their return to tennis. As they knock the rust off and get match time under their belts they usually return to their true level. If the tennis gods are smiling on them, this tends to coincide with city and regional playoffs.

Is it cheating? Technically no under the current self-rating rules. Is it breaking the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play implied in a skill level league? Absolutely. But as many of you have said, rule bending like this goes on in every sport. Folks that only care about winning can rationalize away a lot of bad sportsmanship and dishonesty.

Since I play on a private club team that doesn't allow guest players, we don't have the luxury of replacing teammates who get bumped with ringers. So we know we may occasionally get to the playoffs, but will never advance far. So unless I want to go and try to make the cut and join a team built for winning, USTA League play will always be a nice way to get some matches in, meet interesting folks and hang out with good friends.

-k-

goober
11-30-2006, 08:12 AM
I play tennis for fun, exercise, weight control, etc., and no cheater can stop me from that.

Interesting comments coming from a captain of a USTA team who took a 19 year old player ranked nationally at 279 in the 18s and had him self rate at 4.0. Sure you just play for fun.

BigJEFF
12-04-2006, 11:44 PM
OK, so any system can be abused if someone really makes up their mind.

Under the verification system, a player could lie on his profile sheet, tank in front of the verifier, and get a rating of whatever he wanted.

Under the self-rating system, a player can lie on the questions the computer asks, and get whatever rating he wants.

Under the computer rating system, a player can intentionally lose matches in one year so that he keeps the rating for next year.

I play tennis for fun, exercise, weight control, etc., and no cheater can stop me from that. I don't want to make this personal but how many of these rules did you break with John. In my Opinion you should be thankful for Nor Cal because personally I don't think your much better.

BigJEFF
12-04-2006, 11:48 PM
[QUOTE=goober;1094241]Interesting comments coming from a captain of a USTA team who took a 19 year old player ranked nationally at 279 in the 18s and had him self rate at 4.0. Sure you just play for fun.
Great comments " when you live in a glass house you don't throw stones"

gokou703
12-05-2006, 10:37 AM
[QUOTE=goober;1094241]Interesting comments coming from a captain of a USTA team who took a 19 year old player ranked nationally at 279 in the 18s and had him self rate at 4.0. Sure you just play for fun.
Great comments " when you live in a glass house you don't throw stones"

haha thats a pretty bad self rating...but i can say that the sandbagging in norcal is so bad that a junior like still isn't gauranteed to dominate the competition in 4.0's. you seriously see 5.0's playing all the way down to 4.0's. those players hang with highly ranked juniors. you still see a lot of strong 4.5+ level playing 4.0's in norcal as well. that example of that 19 year old is almost normal to see in the norcal section.

CrocodileRock
12-07-2006, 08:36 AM
[QUOTE=goober;1094241]Interesting comments coming from a captain of a USTA team who took a 19 year old player ranked nationally at 279 in the 18s and had him self rate at 4.0. Sure you just play for fun.
Great comments " when you live in a glass house you don't throw stones"

Jeff, I can see you are still bitter, so I am writing to make one last correction to the misinformation out there, and to say that I don't blame you for feeling slighted. It's obvious now that one of the other teams fed you this misinformation and stirred up your guys' anger, and when that didn't work, they tried the same thing with Hawaii, and when that didn't work, it just made them and you madder. If you had correct information from the start, I don't think your guys would have said some of the things they did. Here is what I am talking about:


#1 singles player for Univ. of Minn., self-rated at 3.5 - wrong on both counts, as that player later confirmed

2 former college players under 35 - wrong, 1 former juco player under 35 with a computer rating before he went there that he still has, and the other was a case of mistaken identity

played ITA events representing Baylor - wrong that he ever represented Baylor at any tournament

tried out for Baylor - wrong, never did or could

duped into playing by his captain - wrong, he is pre-med with a 3.9 GPA. I couldn't dupe him into anything, even if I wanted to

After seeing this many incorrect statements, I then became suspicious of the claim that he had a #279 national ranking. Well, I was right. The place where someone found that was tennisrecruiting.net, a site that tracks only players who join it. In other words, someone's ranking will be automatically inflated by better players not joining it. On their site they admit that their system is different from the USTA. I think it's kind of like tennisinformation.com, maybe even the same. They have ranking lists also, but put a disclaimer that they are not affiliated with or endorsed by the USTA. The only site that I found with USTA rankings said he was #627 in 2004. Pretty good I guess, but a far cry from 279.

If you look at our score, you will notice that his match didn't even matter. We beat you 4-1, and were 2 points away from making it 5-0. Same thing goes for the flight. We won by 5, including the 4 contributed by John. In other words, even if we used a lesser player, and he lost all 4, we still would have won the flight. However, you guys were second, and that's a good thing. It puts you in the top 8 in the nation, something I hope you are very proud of.

Again, I don't fault you for believing what must have seemed like official-looking information. I fault those who gave it to you and tried to coerce you and others to stir up trouble against us off the court when they couldn't beat us on the court.

Best of luck next year.

goober
12-07-2006, 12:00 PM
After seeing this many incorrect statements, I then became suspicious of the claim that he had a #279 national ranking. Well, I was right. The place where someone found that was tennisrecruiting.net, a site that tracks only players who join it. In other words, someone's ranking will be automatically inflated by better players not joining it. On their site they admit that their system is different from the USTA. I think it's kind of like tennisinformation.com, maybe even the same. They have ranking lists also, but put a disclaimer that they are not affiliated with or endorsed by the USTA. The only site that I found with USTA rankings said he was #627 in 2004. Pretty good I guess, but a far cry from 279.




Final USTA BOYS 18 rankings NATIONAL 2004:

http://tournaments.usta.com/tournaments/rankings/rankinglists.aspx?id=93326

It turns out he is 298, which really isn't that far from 279

If you limit to only Texas section: choose texas under drop down menu.


Interesting that there are only 18 players that have higher rankings than him in the Texas section. Why would a group of 30-40 year old adults bring in a 19 year old ringer and have him self rate?

CrocodileRock
12-07-2006, 12:26 PM
Final USTA BOYS 18 rankings NATIONAL 2004:

Why would a group of 30-40 year old adults bring in a 19 year old ringer and have him self rate?

First, 19 is the minimum age for USTA leagues. We have had several that age in the past, and hope to have several more in the future. It's a good way to transition from junior tennis to adult tennis in my opinion.

Second, a self-rating is required for all players without a computer rating. Actually, this is a computer rating since the computer assigns a rating after you answer a series of questions. The player answered all of them honestly, and was assigned a 4.0.

Third, the other players on our team range in age from 22 to 50.:)

bleach
12-07-2006, 01:28 PM
According to the "General & Experienced Player Guidelines Supplement to the NTRP Guidelines":

Former Juniors who had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college: under 35 (4.5), 36 & over (4.0).


It doesn't say what the National ranking should be, only that if they have one! I can't really keep up with this thread, but it appears that both of you claim he had a National ranking. But you disagree to what that ranking was. But according to this, it doesn't matter!

goober
12-07-2006, 01:55 PM
First, 19 is the minimum age for USTA leagues. We have had several that age in the past, and hope to have several more in the future. It's a good way to transition from junior tennis to adult tennis in my opinion.

Second, a self-rating is required for all players without a computer rating. Actually, this is a computer rating since the computer assigns a rating after you answer a series of questions. The player answered all of them honestly, and was assigned a 4.0.

Third, the other players on our team range in age from 22 to 50.:)
I very well know what the age requirements are and I know about self rating. Throwing your hands up and saying that that's what the computer gave him it is out of our hands is pretty weak as an excuse. I can pretty much give myself any ranking I want depending on how I answer the questions. Funny how I got 4.0 self rating and I never had any junior/college or competitive experience otherwise. You weren't even following the self rate guidelines in any case. 5.5 rating if you are top 150 nationally with no college and 4.5 if you had any national junior ranking at all with no college. I highly doubt he answered the questions honestly. In fact I would say it is impossible to answer the questions honestly with his background and come up with that rating.

At any point when he was trying out for your team did you honestly think he was a legitimate 4.0 player?

Jack the Hack
12-07-2006, 02:03 PM
Final USTA BOYS 18 rankings NATIONAL 2004:

http://tournaments.usta.com/tournaments/rankings/rankinglists.aspx?id=93326

It turns out he is 298, which really isn't that far from 279

If you limit to only Texas section: choose texas under drop down menu.

Interesting that there are only 18 players that have higher rankings than him in the Texas section. Why would a group of 30-40 year old adults bring in a 19 year old ringer and have him self rate?

OK, we have established that the same John Arvesen that played on Texas' national championship 4.0 USTA league team is the same person that was ranked #298 nationally in the USTA Boy's 18 & Under category in 2004.

Given that, and I know that this has been brought up before, but the USTA self rating guidelines are pretty clear:

"NAIA, Division 2 & 3 unranked college team player - program with no scholarships (not much stronger than high school tennis); junior college player; former juniors that had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college; Age 35 & Under = 4.5, Age 36 & Over = 4.0."

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7372.pdf?12/6/2004%204:12:22%20PM

That guideline right there shows in black and white that he should have been self rated at 4.5 - end of story and argument!!!

If the USTA program spit him out as a 4.0 after submitting the evaluation form, either pertinant information was missing from the form (ie, the ranking was not mentioned) or the USTA program was not following it's own published guidelines. Furthermore, the Texas team captain says that he specifically went to the section league coordinator about this player and he/she approved of his play at 4.0. If this is the case, that coordinator needs to be disciplined for not following the guidelines (along with all of the other USTA officials that allowed this continue).

Aside from the ranking, the fact that Arvesen was also a two-time Texas 4A state high school doubles finalist also shows that he was not a 4.0 level player.

If this kid was not self rated, I would not necessarily have half the problem with his eligibility. Despite his national junior ranking and stellar high school results, if he had taken a long break from tennis, came back to the game, played some tournaments, and was legitimately spit out as a computer rated 4.0, that would be acceptable. (That describes me by the way.) However, Arvesen was only one year removed from his junior play and there is no way he can self rate at the level he did in good conscience (that's why the USTA guidelines specify an age range)... and I find it hard to believe any team captain would go along with this and then continue to argue legitimacy or plead ignorance as justification.

Self rated players that become stars at sectionals or nationals really leave a bad taste in my mouth. Once they reach that point, they are rarely (if ever) disqualified, no matter how outrageously over level they are. Others have posted that Arvesen wasn't even the best player at the nationals. Atul Shah from PNW (with possible college or professional experience in India that the USTA could not verify) and Hector Hernandez from the Middle States section (who had a World Junior ITF ranking of 1320 in 2004) were supposed to be even more over level than Arvesen, and they were both self rated also... which is total BS.

In my opinion, if the USTA wants to root this out, they should make a rule that no self rated player is allowed to play in district, sectional, or national playoffs. That's tough on new players, but they would still get to play during the season... but it would root out these cases of one season self rated ringers coming in and helping a team win a (illegitimate) national title. (If you reverse Arvesen's and Hernandez's results, Texas wouldn't have won the title and Middle States wouldn't have gotten 4th place.)

CrocodileRock
12-07-2006, 02:09 PM
At any point when he was trying out for your team did you honestly think he was a legitimate 4.0 player?

Yes, I did. The first night I met him, he beat me 6-3. If you look at my record, you will see many sets lost by that score or worse by guys who are still 4.0. Then he and another player beat me and another player (both singles guys) in doubles 6-4. In league, he lost a set to a player I beat easily, then beat another guy badly that I also beat badly. At sectionals, all of his matches were pretty close except for one deliberate sacrifice. He was losing his final match 7-4 in the tiebreaker, but managed to pull it out.

Joeyg
12-07-2006, 02:52 PM
Crocodile Rock: Sorry, but in my opinion you were way out of line. Try and justify it all that you want. The kid was under-rated and you were aware of it. The USTA is also at fault for not DQ'ing him as soon as they saw him hit a ball. The win at all costs mentality is just completely against the spirit of the game.

For you to claim ignorance is just ridiculous! League tennis at the elite level has become a game of who can cheat the best. The USTA wil no longer get my $18.00.

Jack the Hack
12-07-2006, 03:11 PM
In league, he lost a set to a player I beat easily, then beat another guy badly that I also beat badly.

In the match with Marc Dominguez (the guy you beat 6-2, 6-1), Arvesen lost the first set 7-6, but came back and won the second 6-0. What was the tiebreaker score? It sounds to me like he was just being lazy and turned it on when he needed to. As for the player you both beat badly... I guess it just proves that guy was a poor player that you could both drub on.

At sectionals, all of his matches were pretty close except for one deliberate sacrifice. He was losing his final match 7-4 in the tiebreaker, but managed to pull it out.

If he was just putting out half effort (maybe trying to avoid a strike even?), then he could certainly give up a few games to keep the scores "close". (That's what Atul Shah did in the PNW sectional playoffs by the way.) The fact is, Arvesen won all his matches in straight sets up until the final. The guy he beat in the sectional final, James Sinard, was 12-1 on the year going into that match... and it looks like he is also a self rated ringer. So your ringer beat their ringer... what a joke!

Justify this all you want, and enjoy your nice shiny plate... but understand that if you didn't have Arvesen (which you shouldn't have if the USTA followed their own guidelines), your team wouldn't have even made it to the nationals, let alone win the title.

BigJEFF
12-07-2006, 07:57 PM
Hey Croc, I don't think you get it. Yes you beat us 4-1 but we lost our hottest and at the time best doubles team going into nationals who were both computer rated players. If I have them I don't have to split up my other doubles team to play singles (gore) who was sick and had to play singles but went undefeated in dubs after that match. What hacks me off is we lost players at our sectional, we were told this is an assurance that at Nationals we will all be on the same playing field well someone did'nt tell your section that I guess. One more note the only person on our team that is still responding to this thread is me I am not sure who the other guys our but they are right your boy was ranked and he should and was suppossed to be a 4.5 STOP DEFENDING IT.. What really hacked me off was you coming down on Nor Cal and sounding like you play by the rules. Got news for you YOU DON'T. MY ADVICE to you is just tell the people in your Hometown and your little club and family that you won A National Tourny but don't come on this Board and pat yourself on the back and talk about people being mis informed.. CROC I am very proud of our Team we worked extremely hard to get to Nationals. Especially with all computer rated players. WE didnt have one self rated player or one Nationally Ranked JR. we play by the Rules that why when people ask how we did I tell them we beat all the 4.0 teams we played. and you take the 2 cheaters that played in the finals out we were top 5. You tell your side I tell mine..... Big Jeff 4.0 2006 Mythical National Champs.....

dpfrazier
12-07-2006, 08:09 PM
Since I play on a private club team that doesn't allow guest players, we don't have the luxury of replacing teammates who get bumped with ringers. So we know we may occasionally get to the playoffs, but will never advance far. So unless I want to go and try to make the cut and join a team built for winning, USTA League play will always be a nice way to get some matches in, meet interesting folks and hang out with good friends.

-k-

What's amazing is that our small private NorCal club (only 6 courts) sent both 3.0 and 3.5 women's teams to Nationals this year. No outside players on either roster...

Raf Tsew
12-08-2006, 12:39 AM
Hey Guys! The other thread about cheating is "dead" so I wander around and find this thread.

Sorry to read that you guys are still *****ing about TX over and over. I thought this thread is only for Norcal where there are some problems?

If you are still ****ed off, I understand. But life has to go on, men.

Have you ever ****ed into a canyon from a cliff? There are a few canyons around here and it's an experience. Never there is an echo of what you are doing. Once in a while, a strange whirlwind would bring back the waste. Doesn't this sound like the USTA?

BigJeff, as a Captain, you were discouraged by the TD in HI. File a grievance against him. Make him answer for his actions. Regulations 2.0x allow for a TD to take action including a DQ before a grievance committee decision.

If all of you are still bitter about TX, nothing you can do now as the rules required you to file in time. However, there is an option that you may want to explore. File a grievance against the TX Captain and the TX League Coordinator with the National Sportsmanship Grievance committee. The USTA will initially try to discourage you. But what have you got to lose? They may send you a Chrysler to keep your mouths shut.

Raf Tsew
12-08-2006, 12:39 AM
:D

I am not good a this.

c2u4erm77
12-10-2006, 07:39 PM
[QUOTE=Jack the Hack;1106026]In the match with Marc Dominguez (the guy you beat 6-2, 6-1), Arvesen lost the first set 7-6, but came back and won the second 6-0. What was the tiebreaker score? It sounds to me like he was just being lazy and turned it on when he needed to. As for the player you both beat badly... I guess it just proves that guy was a poor player that you could both drub on.


well i will let you in on something.... Arvesen was lucky that second set, he did beat me 6-0, however i was dealing with an asthma attack that had started at the end of that first set, i couldnt breathe at all for the rest of the match and 1 or 2 times thought about just going home..... i think the tiebreaker was either 5 or 7, cant remember ------ Crocodile.... you beat me easily eh??? hmmmm i will definitely have to remember that the next time we play .......

oldguysrule
12-11-2006, 07:19 AM
Mark and Bill,
Welcome to the forum. Let me know if you need a referee for your next match... :)

CrocodileRock
12-11-2006, 11:24 AM
I was just doing a little reading on USTA's grievance rules. The NorCal situation is one of "eligibility" problems:

2.02C(3) A complaint regarding failure to meet eligibility requirements (e.g. under age, not a USTA member, misrepresentation of identity) may be filed by a team captain or league coordinator at any time. For eligibility complaints, a USTA League coordinator may declare a player ineligible and disqualify that player without filing a grievance prior to the disqualification. (See 1.10, 3.01C, 3.01D, 4.01, 5.01C and 5.01D.)

The remedy for ineligible players is also clearly defined:

2.02D(5)c In the event of an eligibility disqualification in a round robin format during the championship event, the player will not be allowed to continue or advance on that team and all matches played by the player shall be considered losses and those matches shall be considered wins for the opposing players or doubles teams and scored (6-0, 6-0).

So, it seems to me that using their own guidelines, USTA should have reversed all of NorCal's 3 3-2 wins to become 3-2 losses, causing them to finish last in the flight rather than first, and Southern was the genuine winner. I hope to see Southern get a wild card into the tournament next year. They deserve it.

Andy, I'll let you know if your services are needed;) .

BigJEFF
12-11-2006, 08:30 PM
I was just doing a little reading on USTA's grievance rules. The NorCal situation is one of "eligibility" problems:

2.02C(3) A complaint regarding failure to meet eligibility requirements (e.g. under age, not a USTA member, misrepresentation of identity) may be filed by a team captain or league coordinator at any time. For eligibility complaints, a USTA League coordinator may declare a player ineligible and disqualify that player without filing a grievance prior to the disqualification. (See 1.10, 3.01C, 3.01D, 4.01, 5.01C and 5.01D.)

The remedy for ineligible players is also clearly defined:

2.02D(5)c In the event of an eligibility disqualification in a round robin format during the championship event, the player will not be allowed to continue or advance on that team and all matches played by the player shall be considered losses and those matches shall be considered wins for the opposing players or doubles teams and scored (6-0, 6-0).

So, it seems to me that using their own guidelines, USTA should have reversed all of NorCal's 3 3-2 wins to become 3-2 losses, causing them to finish last in the flight rather than first, and Southern was the genuine winner. I hope to see Southern get a wild card into the tournament next year. They deserve it.

Andy, I'll let you know if your services are needed;) .


Now YOU READ THE RULES

Joeyg
12-17-2006, 11:11 AM
Well Gang, I just spoke to a member of the Backesto Park team. He said that the USTA investigation went nowhere as they had no real evidence that substitute players were used! I think this is fairly typical.
I want to hear what you all think about this. I will forward a copy of this thread to the USTA.

flash9
12-18-2006, 07:32 AM
Well Gang, I just spoke to a member of the Backesto Park team. He said that the USTA investigation went nowhere as they had no real evidence that substitute players were used! I think this is fairly typical.
I want to hear what you all think about this. I will forward a copy of this thread to the USTA.
If I remember the story correctly, some players were accused of not being who they were registered as, and when asked to show their ID’s, they claimed they did not have their ID’s with them.

Has no one from the USTA ever heard of a digital camera? They should have taken pictures of the questionable players and made them photocopy their driver’s licenses and mail them to the USTA to prove their ID, if they did not match, you have your proof!

Geezer Guy
12-18-2006, 02:06 PM
Has no one from the USTA ever heard of a digital camera? They should have taken pictures of the questionable players and made them photocopy their driver’s licenses and mail them to the USTA to prove their ID, if they did not match, you have your proof!

Ever seen a pro match? Notice how they always start with the two opponents standing at the net and taking a picture? NOW YOU KNOW WHY!

andfor
12-18-2006, 03:21 PM
Well Gang, I just spoke to a member of the Backesto Park team. He said that the USTA investigation went nowhere as they had no real evidence that substitute players were used! I think this is fairly typical.
I want to hear what you all think about this. I will forward a copy of this thread to the USTA.

If its true of the USTA's position on this matter it's just what I expected. It's par for the course with the USTA and these kind of matters for them to (by my observation on multiple occasions) simply just sweep things under the rug. I have come to the conclusion that in serious matters such as these the USTA finds it best to not rule against the violators. Reasons not in particular order, #1 for fear of a law suit, #2 because not finding anyone guilty and not sanctioning them helps the USTA avoid additional negative attention. Instead they usually resort to slapping them on the wrist and letting it all go away quietly all the while making the victims feel as if they are the perpetrators for bringing attention to the situation.

BigJEFF
12-18-2006, 08:34 PM
If its true of the USTA's position on this matter it's just what I expected. It's par for the course with the USTA and these kind of matters for them to (by my observation on multiple occasions) simply just sweep things under the rug. I have come to the conclusion that in serious matters such as these the USTA finds it best to not rule against the violators. Reasons not in particular order, #1 for fear of a law suit, #2 because not finding anyone guilty and not sanctioning them helps the USTA avoid additional negative attention. Instead they usually resort to slapping them on the wrist and letting it all go away quietly all the while making the victims feel as if they are the perpetrators for bringing attention to the situation.

Truthfully, I am surprised they did any kind of investigation at all... Too many meetings at exotic hotels I bet had this been in Miami,Pureto or if they were still in a Hawaii there would have been 20 USTA Staff members on thier way to find nothing was wrong but the beachs were wonderful... USTA IS A JOKE...

andfor
12-19-2006, 11:50 AM
Truthfully, I am surprised they did any kind of investigation at all... Too many meetings at exotic hotels I bet had this been in Miami,Pureto or if they were still in a Hawaii there would have been 20 USTA Staff members on thier way to find nothing was wrong but the beachs were wonderful... USTA IS A JOKE...

Most likely you're right. They probably did not do a real investigation with intentions of penalizing or sanctioning anyone in the end. Instead I could see them consulting their PR firm for advice on how to make this disappear into the background. We may see a new system at the championship levels requiring proof of identification.

End of story. Good job USTA.

West Coast Ace
12-24-2006, 05:15 PM
Quite an interesting thread - a few observations:

a) CrocodileRock - you are pathetic. I see a future in politics for you.
b) And you must have relatives who live in TX, based on the link to the details of their ridiculous behavior
c) This makes local tennis ladders look like a real good option - at least no one is lying about where their talent lies
d) I'll be thinking about this thread when I decide whether or not to pick up the phone and get that USTA membership for '07
e) I wonder is anyone has any good USTA team tennis experiences
f) if any of the foreigners who participate in the Message Boards here read this, will it just affirm their (negative) notions of Americans.

This is really sad. Reading this on Xmas eve is very depressing.

Freemandawg
12-29-2006, 12:29 PM
I am a captain of one of the other 4.0 Texas teams (Houston) that got beat by Corpus Christi in the Sectional semis, who then lost to Waco in the finals. Although I never had the opportunity to see Waco play I have had the pleasure of playing against most of the players on the roster during league or tournament tennis. These guys (particuarly the captain) are great people and enjoy playing recreational tennis as much as the rest of us. The personal attacks are getting old and they are really taking away from the banter and enjoyment that most of us take away from this board.

From purely a Texas 4.0 league tennis perspective the Waco team was right on target talent-wise with the rest of the state (or at least the top 10 or so teams). Waco had a good "team" that got hot at the right time. They made the most out of the opportunities that were presented to them and time and time again their players came throuogh by playing their best tennis at the biggest, most pressure-filed times.

Congrats to Waco on an improvable run that resulted in a National Championship.....well done. You guys played fair and were always respectful to others on and off the court. Don't listen to this negative whining and finger pointing...enjoy this special moment.

Once again, CONGRATS!!!!!!!!!!!!

CrocodileRock
12-29-2006, 04:49 PM
Hey Dawg,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I also looked up your team, and noticed you have 5 guys in the top 13 of Texas singles, and 7 guys in the top 20 in doubles. That's amazing to have that much talent on one team. From the first day of sectionals, the buzz was that both Houston teams were awesome, and they would meet in the finals, and whoever won was a shoo-in at nationals. I never heard your side of the Corpus match, but they had a great team as well, and should have beaten us.

It's true that some have taken the low road here, but I'm not gonna. Best of luck next year :)

BigJEFF
12-29-2006, 07:19 PM
Hey Dawg,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I also looked up your team, and noticed you have 5 guys in the top 13 of Texas singles, and 7 guys in the top 20 in doubles. That's amazing to have that much talent on one team. From the first day of sectionals, the buzz was that both Houston teams were awesome, and they would meet in the finals, and whoever won was a shoo-in at nationals. I never heard your side of the Corpus match, but they had a great team as well, and should have beaten us.

It's true that some have taken the low road here, but I'm not gonna. Best of luck next year :)

MY Bad, you guys from Texas are the Greatest 4.0 teams in the whole world and we know you would never cheat or Do anything DISHONEST Once again Best wishes and CONCRATS Pete Rose, Barry Bonds and Floyd Landis

sjdave
01-16-2007, 04:19 PM
A few years ago, I played on a team in the 2004 Sectionals. We were a team of ringers from all over the bay area. We weren't cheating. Most of us were near the top of our level and we were all computer rated players. We didn't manage scores, and we had the attitude that the algorithm would determine our rating. We won all the way through districts and beat some great teams. We were beaten badly in Sectionals by the most of the guys who regrouped as the 2006 Backesto Park 4.0 national disgrace team. They went to Nationals.

Here is what I find interesting: look at the players on our two teams over the last two years. See any differences? Over eight Mitchell Park 4.0s were bumped to the 4.5s. Ninety percent of our group had better than winning records in the 4.5s. Mitchell Park's best singles player, Dat Mac was beaten by Vince Ha (16-0 in 2004) in the 2004 sectionals. Dat won the Grand Prix in 4.5 singles this year.

How did the team that went to Nationals do the following years? Not so good. In most cases, they lost all of their matches at the 4.5 level, sometimes to players that they beat badly the year before, and yet, all of these players were bumped down from 4.5 just in time to play exceptionally well all the way to Nationals this year. This 2004 team had ten self-rated players go 86-5. They were good enough to completely dominate at 4.0, but they couldn't get a single win in the 4.5s? Not everyone who gets bumped up does well at the higher level, but it seems strange that so many "friends" peak and slump in perfect unison.

I captained a 4.5 team against Backesto this last year. Many in our league felt that these guys were cheating ratings and score managing. It came up as a topic among teams at almost every league match. NorCal acknowledged our complaints, sympathized with our suspicions and proofpoints, but grimly expressed doubt whether action could be taken despite three strikes, grievance committe, watch list... They offered ideas like hiring verifiers (paying for it out of our pockets), but then later said that that video or all captains complaining would do little to prove anything. I know of people in my league who have quit USTA because of these teams and their frustrations over this situation. We were put in a helpless situation. Either cheat too or take your whipping and go home. The Backesto 4.5 team last year had over seven 5.0 players who were bumped to 4.5 after losing ALL of their matches at the 5.0 level, despite doing well against good players in tournaments. Good thing that we have policies against cheating.

My questions still are: Does NorCal have any mechanism to stop cheaters before they get beyond playoffs and rob the by-the-rules players of their opportunity? If you can self rate and effectively score manage, how do policies like the three strikes rule, grievance committee, watchlist...work exactly? Are there metrics that prove any of these things work?

If what I have heard about Nationals is true, everyone on this team should be punished. I think the captain and co-captain should be given a ban for life.

What does it take for something to happen? Noone is asking for a cure to world hunger here. Stamping out cheating is like killing cockroaches. Impossible to get all of them. Still with such blatant abuse over the last few years, good people are losing faith in the bad system. One cheater is difficult enough, but it's no fun at all to get completely slaughtered by an entire team of cheaters who are way over level. The matches that they intentionally lose are even more of an insult.

I have some suggestions for USTA and NorCal:

- ID checks before matches - driver's licenses or state ID card only - no ID, no play - no doubt, you will get fakes, but it has to done.
- Count tournaments and league matches equally - many of these guys tanked matches at the higher level while beating good open players in tournaments and they got bumped down!
- Verifiers (got to have some way to check complaints out - especially when it's such an obvious situation) - I would pay more for enforcement and fairness.
- Tighter algorithm - does anything flag excessive/abnormal losses? Maybe a record of ten or more wins on a Nationals team should mean two years at the higher level before allowing an individual to come down. Maybe it should take more than just three losses.
- More carefully review the players who get bumped down

thinktowin
01-16-2007, 08:55 PM
My name's Roge Fowler and I was the captain of the OK team that won in 2004. I can see why you guys are upset with the Fremont team for what they did in 2005. They were in our pool at Nationals in 2004 and I don't think they were loaded with 4.5 guys then.

The guys we won with in 2004 couldn't win locally at 4.5 in Oklahoma City. It's just a gray area between 4.0 and 4.5 that's causing all the problems for you guys.

10sguy
01-16-2007, 11:51 PM
A few years ago, I played on a team in the 2004 Sectionals. We were a team of ringers from all over the bay area. We weren't cheating. Most of us were near the top of our level and we were all computer rated players. We didn't manage scores, and we had the attitude that the algorithm would determine our rating. We won all the way through districts and beat some great teams. We were beaten badly in Sectionals by the most of the guys who regrouped as the 2006 Backesto Park 4.0 national disgrace team. They went to Nationals.

Here is what I find interesting: look at the players on our two teams over the last two years. See any differences? Over eight Mitchell Park 4.0s were bumped to the 4.5s. Ninety percent of our group had better than winning records in the 4.5s. Mitchell Park's best singles player, Dat Mac was beaten by Vince Ha (16-0 in 2004) in the 2004 sectionals. Dat won the Grand Prix in 4.5 singles this year.

How did the team that went to Nationals do the following years? Not so good. In most cases, they lost all of their matches at the 4.5 level, sometimes to players that they beat badly the year before, and yet, all of these players were bumped down from 4.5 just in time to play exceptionally well all the way to Nationals this year. This 2004 team had ten self-rated players go 86-5. They were good enough to completely dominate at 4.0, but they couldn't get a single win in the 4.5s? Not everyone who gets bumped up does well at the higher level, but it seems strange that so many "friends" peak and slump in perfect unison.

I captained a 4.5 team against Backesto this last year. Many in our league felt that these guys were cheating ratings and score managing. It came up as a topic among teams at almost every league match. NorCal acknowledged our complaints, sympathized with our suspicions and proofpoints, but grimly expressed doubt whether action could be taken despite three strikes, grievance committe, watch list... They offered ideas like hiring verifiers (paying for it out of our pockets), but then later said that that video or all captains complaining would do little to prove anything. I know of people in my league who have quit USTA because of these teams and their frustrations over this situation. We were put in a helpless situation. Either cheat too or take your whipping and go home. The Backesto 4.5 team last year had over seven 5.0 players who were bumped to 4.5 after losing ALL of their matches at the 5.0 level, despite doing well against good players in tournaments. Good thing that we have policies against cheating.

My questions still are: Does NorCal have any mechanism to stop cheaters before they get beyond playoffs and rob the by-the-rules players of their opportunity? If you can self rate and effectively score manage, how do policies like the three strikes rule, grievance committee, watchlist...work exactly? Are there metrics that prove any of these things work?

If what I have heard about Nationals is true, everyone on this team should be punished. I think the captain and co-captain should be given a ban for life.

What does it take for something to happen? Noone is asking for a cure to world hunger here. Stamping out cheating is like killing cockroaches. Impossible to get all of them. Still with such blatant abuse over the last few years, good people are losing faith in the bad system. One cheater is difficult enough, but it's no fun at all to get completely slaughtered by an entire team of cheaters who are way over level. The matches that they intentionally lose are even more of an insult.

I have some suggestions for USTA and NorCal:

- ID checks before matches - driver's licenses or state ID card only - no ID, no play - no doubt, you will get fakes, but it has to done.
- Count tournaments and league matches equally - many of these guys tanked matches at the higher level while beating good open players in tournaments and they got bumped down!
- Verifiers (got to have some way to check complaints out - especially when it's such an obvious situation) - I would pay more for enforcement and fairness.
- Tighter algorithm - does anything flag excessive/abnormal losses? Maybe a record of ten or more wins on a Nationals team should mean two years at the higher level before allowing an individual to come down. Maybe it should take more than just three losses.
- More carefully review the players who get bumped down

NorCal will - FOR SURE - define and implement an ID checking process.

The problem with counting tournament and league matches equally, especially dynamically, is that the sandbagging cheaters could easliy utilize losses in tournaments to "manage" their ratings. That's why it's still advisable to only include tournament results in the year-end calculations.

Verifiers: Ain't gonna happen - unless National were to do a huge 180 turn. Word is that when they did away with them, only two USTA Sections had verifiers which were adequately trained and functioning effectively; Also, the visual on-court verification process was seen as a barrier to entry (for new players).

SOLUTION TO STOP SANDBAGGING: Devise a league standings scoring system which provides obvious incentives to not just win individual or team matches --- but to win by the greatest margin possible. All games won would count as team "points," with perhaps bonus points for set/match wins, straight set wins and possibly the overall team win too (best two of three or best three of five, depending on league). This should not only put the sandbaggers flat out of business . . . but should result in a much more level playing field for all. Best of all, this type of league standings scoring system change shouldn't hurt/punish ANYone!

The collateral problem with score managing sandbaggers is the effect they have on EVERYONE else. Consider this: If my losing score vs a sandbagger is closer than it really should be, then my rating stays higher than it should be - and the effect of my higher-than-it-should-really-be rating pollutes the ratings of everyone against whom I play.

C'mon folks, serious replies only. Thanks!

10sguy
01-17-2007, 12:24 AM
My name's Roge Fowler and I was the captain of the OK team that won in 2004. I can see why you guys are upset with the Fremont team for what they did in 2005. They were in our pool at Nationals in 2004 and I don't think they were loaded with 4.5 guys then.

The guys we won with in 2004 couldn't win locally at 4.5 in Oklahoma City. It's just a gray area between 4.0 and 4.5 that's causing all the problems for you guys.

No, Oklahoma thinker, the problem it not is not some mysterious "gray area between 4.0 and 4.5," it's that the players in question are out-and-out cheaters, PERIOD. They've cheated in various ways . . . for YEARS!

They've been thumbing their collective noses at the system --- and at the other players. They (must have) no conscience.

sjdave
01-17-2007, 12:59 AM
No, Oklahoma thinker, the problem it not is not some mysterious "gray area between 4.0 and 4.5," it's that the players in question are out-and-out cheaters, PERIOD. They've cheated in various ways . . . for YEARS!

They've been thumbing their collective noses at the system --- and at the other players. They (must have) no conscience.

There is no gray area with these guys. If you look at the records, you see seasons of complete domination followed by collective losing, regrouping, and winning. There are patterns. It's the same core group of guys. They are thumbing their noses. If the average winning percentage of players who get bumped up was examined, they would fall way way below the line. I don't believe that a group can be so good to go to Nationals and then the next year lose every match at the higher level. Maybe one player, but every player who was pushed up?

It's more than not having a conscience. They are cowards. They are afraid to be mediocre at the higher level. It's pathetic. No one in our league is fooled. Noone respects them. There is no fuzziness. This isn't a case of sour grapes. Other teams feel cheated because it is so blatant. If it was one person in question or they were just really good, at the top of the level, we would try to leave it on the court, but they managed scores, cheated ratings, and they have a history of disrespecting the rules. While I'm glad they got caught, I think it is BS that they got popped for swapping in players at Nationals. NorCal should have nailed them for the other stuff that helped them get to Nationals.

cak
01-17-2007, 08:11 AM
A real simple solution would be you only get one chance at a National title. If you are rostered on an adult 4.0 team that goes to Nationals that's it, your next opportunity to go to Nationals will be either at 4.5 or seniors 4.0. So either you need to get better, or older. :-)

In NorCal there probably is enough depth to put this into place without the rest of the country following suit immediately. But I'd love to see this done nationally. It would take Nationals back to the idea of a bunch of tennis lovers from around the country playing in a tournament for fun against others of their level. It would also encourage the top players in each level to improve.

dpfrazier
01-17-2007, 09:01 AM
SOLUTION TO STOP SANDBAGGING: Devise a league standings scoring system which provides obvious incentives to not just win individual or team matches --- but to win by the greatest margin possible. All games won would count as team "points," with perhaps bonus points for set/match wins, straight set wins and possibly the overall team win too (best two of three or best three of five, depending on league). This should not only put the sandbaggers flat out of business . . . but should result in a much more level playing field for all. Best of all, this type of league standings scoring system change shouldn't hurt/punish ANYone!


This type of system won't work for players willing to take a season off to manipulate their rating. As sjdave said, this is apparently what's happening in Norcal---

Team of ringers destroys the opposition and makes a run at a championship
Most of the players get bumped up
These players spend the next year losing all their matches to get bumped back down
Then they do it all over again...

oldguysrule
01-17-2007, 09:01 AM
A real simple solution would be you only get one chance at a National title. If you are rostered on an adult 4.0 team that goes to Nationals that's it, your next opportunity to go to Nationals will be either at 4.5 or seniors 4.0. So either you need to get better, or older. :-)

In NorCal there probably is enough depth to put this into place without the rest of the country following suit immediately. But I'd love to see this done nationally. It would take Nationals back to the idea of a bunch of tennis lovers from around the country playing in a tournament for fun against others of their level. It would also encourage the top players in each level to improve.

I think this is the best idea yet. Let someone else have some fun.

Douggo
01-17-2007, 09:48 AM
I still don't understand what joy is gotten by beating inferior opponents on the way to a "national championship" at a level beneath one's skill. And how that joy can be worth an entire season of tanking matches at the next level.

I'm not suggesting that this isn't exactly what is happening here - it seems clear that it is. I just don't understand adults who haven't learned to "pick on somebody your own size."

dpfrazier
01-17-2007, 10:22 AM
A real simple solution would be you only get one chance at a National title. If you are rostered on an adult 4.0 team that goes to Nationals that's it, your next opportunity to go to Nationals will be either at 4.5 or seniors 4.0. So either you need to get better, or older. :-)

In NorCal there probably is enough depth to put this into place without the rest of the country following suit immediately. But I'd love to see this done nationally. It would take Nationals back to the idea of a bunch of tennis lovers from around the country playing in a tournament for fun against others of their level. It would also encourage the top players in each level to improve.
Yes, this is a good idea. Captains would have to be aware of this when they set up their rosters --- "have you ever been to Nationals at this level?"

I would also include the restriction that only players with a valid computer rating (i.e., no self rated players) could go to Nationals, as others have suggested.

So teams could make it through Sectionals with these players, but couldn't use them in Nationals...

duffman
01-17-2007, 10:36 AM
The way the system is set up know there is really nothing anyone can do against cheaters who are going to manipulate scores, take a dive at a higher level to get moved down, etc. It is just too hard to prove.

I was discussing this problem with a buddy of mine who is a golf pro at a local club and found it interesting that golf faces a similar dilema with their handicapping system. Guys can fudge scores, miss a few puts, etc. to increase their handicap in hopes of winning the big tournament with their inflated handicap. However, golf does have a system in place that we do not. If a player shoots a certain number under is handicap in tournament play they are automatically DQ'd and are designated with a certaing marking next to their name for a period of time, basically labeling them as a cheater. The basic premise is for a golfer to shoot a certain number under their handicap is highly unlikey and to do it under the increased pressure of a tournament makes it almost impossible. No 3 strikes, no verifications, they are simply DQ'd.

Why couldn't USTA adopt a similar stance? If a sandbagger was manipulating his scores to bring his rating down to a mid 4.0 level the dynamic dNTRP would reflect this. Then when this same player makes it to districts, sectionals, nationals, etc and dominates a top level 4.0/ low level 4.5 in straight sets this would automatically be red flagged and the sandbagger would be DQ'd and bumped to the next level for 3 years. Obviously when 2 sandbaggers squared off this system wouldn't help, but somewhere along the way they would come up against somebody with a legitamate rating and the truth would reveal itself.

duffman
01-17-2007, 10:40 AM
I also like the idea of self-rated players not being able to go to nationals but I would take it a step further. I don't think self-rated players should be able to play in any post season play. This would go a long way towards thwarting violaters of the self-rate process.

andfor
01-17-2007, 11:27 AM
I still don't understand what joy is gotten by beating inferior opponents on the way to a "national championship" at a level beneath one's skill. And how that joy can be worth an entire season of tanking matches at the next level.

Good questions. Some people get aroused by the most unusual and non-traditional stimuli. In many cases they are refered to as deviants! :D

10sguy
01-17-2007, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by 10sguy
SOLUTION TO STOP SANDBAGGING: Devise a league standings scoring system which provides obvious incentives to not just win individual or team matches --- but to win by the greatest margin possible. All games won would count as team "points," with perhaps bonus points for set/match wins, straight set wins and possibly the overall team win too (best two of three or best three of five, depending on league). This should not only put the sandbaggers flat out of business . . . but should result in a much more level playing field for all. Best of all, this type of league standings scoring system change shouldn't hurt/punish ANYone!

This type of system won't work for players willing to take a season off to manipulate their rating. As sjdave said, this is apparently what's happening in Norcal---

Team of ringers destroys the opposition and makes a run at a championship
Most of the players get bumped up
These players spend the next year losing all their matches to get bumped back down
Then they do it all over again...

Oh but YES, this system WILL work . . . let me explain:

So these low life cheaters take a year to manipulate their ratings lower . . . in order to qualify (ratings-wise) to "compete" in a league where they can dominate; Just remember that the modified league standings calculation method would now be in place . . . where standings are primarily determined by games won/lost percentage. If they want to win or place high, they'd better "put out" each time out (in their "start-over" year). Now, just as soon as the obviously out-of-level players begin to have results which truly reflect their capabilities, "three strikes" should catch 'em! Sure, some others will likely be caught in this net . . . but the vast majority of players will benefit by the much more level playing field which would eventually evolve. This may not be perfect, but it would be a huge improvement over the current system.

Geezer Guy
01-17-2007, 02:44 PM
A real simple solution would be you only get one chance at a National title. If you are rostered on an adult 4.0 team that goes to Nationals that's it, your next opportunity to go to Nationals will be either at 4.5 or seniors 4.0. So either you need to get better, or older. :-)

In NorCal there probably is enough depth to put this into place without the rest of the country following suit immediately. But I'd love to see this done nationally. It would take Nationals back to the idea of a bunch of tennis lovers from around the country playing in a tournament for fun against others of their level. It would also encourage the top players in each level to improve.

That's a great idea - and very easy (seemingly) to implement. Also add that someone has to play at least a year before going to Nationals (or maybe even Sectionals).

AndrewD
01-17-2007, 04:47 PM
If someone plays a season, dominates (eg, 95%plus success rate) and is bumped up a level at the end of the year, will anyone they beat during the year be bumped up as well? If the answer is yes (Im guessing it has to be) then surely the results of those other players (the ones beaten but bumped) will provide you with a way of eliminating or, at the least, greatly reduce, the practise of players taking a dive at a higher level?

By that I mean, if the players beaten at a lower level (but obviously with enough wins to be bumped up) display the ability to win matches at a higher level then a player that beat them at a lower level should also be able to win at a higher level (forget anomalies). Beyond a win-loss record, which is easy to rig, doesn't that make a (harder to rig) statement about someone's suitability for a particular level?

alwaysatnet
01-17-2007, 05:34 PM
I still don't understand what joy is gotten by beating inferior opponents on the way to a "national championship" at a level beneath one's skill. And how that joy can be worth an entire season of tanking matches at the next level.

I'm not suggesting that this isn't exactly what is happening here - it seems clear that it is. I just don't understand adults who haven't learned to "pick on somebody your own size."Exactly right! How much fun can it be for Mike Tyson to knock out a little girl?Yet some people will cheat like a monkey just to get the "W".I went on a 4.0 norcal team to nationals in the 90's and the attitude was then you had to have a ringer(or two)just to equal things out.The only way to stop it is to suspend these cheaters caught at nationals for a Very Long Time! Others will get the message.

dpfrazier
01-17-2007, 07:10 PM
Oh but YES, this system WILL work . . . let me explain:

So these low life cheaters take a year to manipulate their ratings lower . . . in order to qualify (ratings-wise) to "compete" in a league where they can dominate; Just remember that the modified league standings calculation method would now be in place . . . where standings are primarily determined by games won/lost percentage. If they want to win or place high, they'd better "put out" each time out (in their "start-over" year). Now, just as soon as the obviously out-of-level players begin to have results which truly reflect their capabilities, "three strikes" should catch 'em! Sure, some others will likely be caught in this net . . . but the vast majority of players will benefit by the much more level playing field which would eventually evolve. This may not be perfect, but it would be a huge improvement over the current system.
I can't imagine the USTA going to a system where team won-loss results are not the most important metric of success. Other factors are used as tie-breakers (individual matches/sets/games won/lost), but they are certainly secondary to team results.

The only tennis-related league I can think of that doesn't use match results is World Team Tennis; they count total games won to determine the winner. But they do this so that a match isn't decided if a team loses the first three of the five sets in the match. Gotta keep the fans interested! Other tennis team events (high school, NCAA, Davis Cup, Hopman Cup, etc.) use match results. So while your proposal is interesting, it's not likely to be implemented.

Sandbaggers can continue to eek out close victories. In fact, they can actually lose quite a few individual and team matches along the way, since all they have to do is get into the playoffs...

BigJEFF
01-18-2007, 12:36 AM
Guys you are forgetting something those Ideas sound great but NO ONE IN THE USTA CARES... pay your dues, pay your dues don't complain, your misinformed, they are like a bunch of robots... I give up

ElSuegro
01-18-2007, 07:44 AM
I have read this thread and it seems to me that the solutions of some people just won't carry water.
1. A scoring system other than won/loss record? No way. Look at professional tennis or any other professional sport. All have objective ways to measure scores. Imagine telling Payton Manning "You put 21 points more than the Patriots, but they beat you on time of possession. They win."
2. Not allowing self-rated players to advance? You gotta be kidding. This would be a huge disincentive to attracting new blood - completely contrary to one of the goals of growing the sport.
3. No repeat trips to nationals? This one bothers me less than the others, but still bothers me. If someone rightfully earns a trip two or three times, let them go, but if they are continually going, it seems like they should get moved up. Probably most of the people at nationals at every level should get moved up anyway by virtue of being there.
4. Blame the USTA? Not their fault someone abuses the self-rating or computer-rating system. Primarily it is the abusers' fault, but I think second-in-line are the grievance committees and the abusers' alleged victims. That may seem foreign to some, but hear me out.

USTA rules state that grievances must be filed within 24 hours of the overmatch, or within 30 minutes if it occurs at a championship. So if Player A crushes Player B, and Player B doesn't file a grievance, tough cookies. If he doesn't follow the guidelines himself, he cant really complain that Player A didn't. I think the biggest area of weakness is the grievance committees. If Player B timely files his grievance then the committee needs to look really close at all the facts - score, self-rate, won/loss record this year, last year to see if someone is trying to beat the system. If the committee had done its job in California and everywhere else, we wouldn't be having this problem. Yes, it was USTA's fault at nationals, but at the local and sectional level, it's not. They can't be everywhere at all times. They have to rely on local and sectional people doing their jobs, and it seems to me this is where the ball was dropped. I would like to see USTA and local and sectional leagues really emphasize the procedures and punishments from now on, as it is the only way I see to eliminate the abuse.

CrocodileRock
01-18-2007, 07:48 PM
You make some good points El, but I have to disagree with you on the USTA. The league is under their jurisdiction, so the buck has to stop there. No, the grievance committees are not employees of the USTA, but the section league coordinators are, and they can learn to treat this more seriously.

Right on about those committees though. I have my own horror story about that. One year one of our guys got stomped by a "Player A" and filed a grievance. We found he was ranked #7 in the state in Men's 45 singles just a few years before, which should have been enough for a DQ. Then we found 3 guys ranked below him who all had 4.5 ratings. In other words, an open and shut case. Turns out 2 of the 3 committee members played for the same club as him, and denied the grievance despite black-and-white proof. Pure politics.

BigJEFF
01-18-2007, 08:02 PM
and how did that make you feel ......

duffman
01-19-2007, 10:10 AM
Right on about those committees though. I have my own horror story about that. One year one of our guys got stomped by a "Player A" and filed a grievance. We found he was ranked #7 in the state in Men's 45 singles just a few years before, which should have been enough for a DQ. Then we found 3 guys ranked below him who all had 4.5 ratings. In other words, an open and shut case. Turns out 2 of the 3 committee members played for the same club as him, and denied the grievance despite black-and-white proof. Pure politics.

LOL! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right crocodilerock???

BigJEFF
01-19-2007, 05:49 PM
LOL! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right crocodilerock???

You should have bought them a beer it worked in Hawaii

CrocodileRock
01-19-2007, 08:15 PM
C'mon duff, be nice. I was probably the only one who believed you when you said you accelerated from zero to 4.5 in two years. For me it's not a stretch to imagine a top-level athlete in one sport to use the same gifts of strength, stamina, speed, agility, hand-eye coordination, etc. on the tennis court, especially when you practiced often with a good coach. I hope you can continue to advance even higher. :)

duffman
01-21-2007, 10:16 AM
C'mon duff, be nice. I was probably the only one who believed you when you said you accelerated from zero to 4.5 in two years. For me it's not a stretch to imagine a top-level athlete in one sport to use the same gifts of strength, stamina, speed, agility, hand-eye coordination, etc. on the tennis court, especially when you practiced often with a good coach. I hope you can continue to advance even higher. :)

Ahhh, just trying to bring a little humor to this thread. Sometimes its hard to tell if one is joking or not online. Thanks for the belief in my tennis history. I hope I can continue to improve, but the jump from 4.5 to 5.0 appears to be much harder than just getting to 4.5.

cak
02-03-2007, 08:54 PM
The only way to stop it is to suspend these cheaters caught at nationals for a Very Long Time! Others will get the message.

The National Grievance decision was filed Jan 30th. The acting captain for the Nationals, who did not play at Nationals, but presented lineups and signed the score cards was suspended from all league activity until Jan 1st, 2017. Twelve other players were suspended from all league activity until Jan 1st 2012. These twelve players include all who played in lineups in Hawaii except Anh Huynh.

Appeals must be filed by Feb 12th, so I'm not sure its the end of it. But this does make me feel much better about the National organization.

vizsla
02-05-2007, 06:58 AM
Cak:

Where did you find out this information; is it published on the web somewhere?

Thanks

cak
02-05-2007, 07:16 AM
There is a NorCal Yahoo group where it was announced. They scanned in a copy of the letter. Yeah, I didn't believe it when the first guy mentioned it either.

vizsla
02-05-2007, 07:30 AM
Do you have a soft copy of the letter? If so, can you copy and paste onto this page??

Thanks

kylebarendrick
02-05-2007, 10:10 AM
I'd love to see this resolved soon - my mixed team played against one of the offenders on Saturday...

10sguy
02-05-2007, 11:03 AM
There is a NorCal Yahoo group where it was announced. They scanned in a copy of the letter. Yeah, I didn't believe it when the first guy mentioned it either.

BELIEVE IT!!

cak
02-05-2007, 01:33 PM
Kyle, as of right now they have until Feb 12th to appeal. I believe you can still play if you are appealling. Though if the appeal is rejected any games played will be reversed. (Which doesn't help much since you lost 3-0) If you are playing in Norcal you should join the Yahoo list. NorCalTennisTalk.

kylebarendrick
02-05-2007, 02:02 PM
I just joined it - thanks for the tip.

ElSuegro
02-05-2007, 04:27 PM
Do you have a soft copy of the letter? If so, can you copy and paste onto this page??

Thanks

January 30, 2007

TO: Northern California Backesto Park 4.0 Men Team # 5083299303

FROM: USTA League Tennis National Championship Grievance Committee

RE: National Championship Grievance against NorCal 4.0 Men Team # 5083299303

This letter is in response to a complaint filed by Annice Seelig on October
29, 2006, against the Backesto 4.0 Adult Men's team. The complaint alleged
that the team had violated League regulation 2.02D(3) by misrepresenting the
identify of players who participated in matches at the 2006 Adult 4.0
National Championships held in Waikoloa Village, Hawaii the last weekend in
October, 2006.

On January 8, 2007 each team member was sent a certified, return receipt
requested letter with a self-addressed stamped envelope requesting the
answer to two questions and also inviting comments and additional
information: Did you attend the national event? Were you aware of any
misrepresentation of identity? Further efforts to contact all team members
consisted of sending a copy of the letter by regular mail and also by
e-mail.

DECISION

Mr. Tuan Lam, (USTA # 922212544) acting captain, who presented the lineups
and signed the score cards is suspended from all USTA League participation
until January 1, 2017.

The following team members are suspended from all USTA League participation
until January 1, 2012.


USTA Number / Name
11023470 / Nguyen, Tom
2002070750 / Nghiem, Brian
920181296 / Bui, John
922782678 / Ha, Vincent
919433321 / Motamedi, Kamron
1180283950 / Nguyen, Brian
2002071144 / Nguyen, Minh
920714380 / Nguyen, Minh
922759691 / Pham, Hung
922392680 / Quach, Steve
921422767 / Ta, Ming
2002445187 / Tran, Hieu

No action will be taken at this time against the remaining team members.

The Grievance Committee thanks all of the parties who provided information
on this matter. If there are any questions or comments regarding this
decision, please do not hesitate to contact the USTA League Tennis National
Manager. Please note the following information on appeals

Sincerely,

Gail G. Marx
League Tennis National Manager

For Jack Schubert
USTA League Championship Grievance Committee Chair

c:
Helen Jeter
Tom Gray
Annice Seelig
Bob Manalo
Anna Elefant
Bev Wentz
David Schobel

NOTICE OF RIGHT OF APPEAL
Any party to the complaint may appeal the decision of the USTA League Tennis
National Championship Grievance Committee. The procedures set forth in USTA
League Regulations 2.03 and 2.04 must be followed. Appeals must be filed by
Monday, February 12, 2007, 5:00 p.m. Eastern Standard ti

BigJEFF
02-05-2007, 06:46 PM
Ok that took care of one cheater lets get the other one....

JLyon
02-05-2007, 08:11 PM
Croc,

I know the kid (he 7-8 years younger but used to assist in local JD program when he was in 14's) you had on your team and was surprised he was 4.0 but hey USTA allows it. Besides look what the SA 4.5 team did this past year. Dallas always has the same 2 teams coming out every year and you wonder why. At least FTW cracked down some. It is refreshing though to see the USTA crack down on cheaters.

Raiden.Kaminari
02-10-2007, 05:06 PM
I captained a 4.5 team against Backesto this last year. Many in our league felt that these guys were cheating ratings and score managing. It came up as a topic among teams at almost every league match. NorCal acknowledged our complaints, sympathized with our suspicions and proofpoints, but grimly expressed doubt whether action could be taken despite three strikes, grievance committe, watch list... They offered ideas like hiring verifiers (paying for it out of our pockets), but then later said that that video or all captains complaining would do little to prove anything. I know of people in my league who have quit USTA because of these teams and their frustrations over this situation. We were put in a helpless situation. Either cheat too or take your whipping and go home. The Backesto 4.5 team last year had over seven 5.0 players who were bumped to 4.5 after losing ALL of their matches at the 5.0 level, despite doing well against good players in tournaments. Good thing that we have policies against cheating.


I read on the NorCal Yahoo groups website that a group of captains got organized and hired verifiers in 2005. One of the captains apparently attended several matches and took videos for the grievance committee to see. Apparently, only one team, captained by Julie Blaha, didn't contribute towards hiring the verifiers, believing they could really beat the Cataldi Park (http://www.ustanorcal.com/Teaminfo.asp?id=24891) team. Unfortunately, the grievance committee refused to re-rate one of the players, and that player went on to win a 4.0 tournament as a 3.0. Against some 4.0 players that went to Nationals.

The really bad thing is that you see a couple of clubs consistently have bad self-rates ... like Clubsport Fremont. A 2.5 player that plays every time at playoffs, districts, and sectionals for mixed? Very suspicious. Especially when these 2.5 players beat 3.5 female players.

NorCal is really screwed up according to my friends.

It's why I'm so glad I play in SoCal. I believe we don't have as many cheaters down here. Players are competitive, but winning isn't everything. At the end of the day, win or lose, we go out and have a beer together.

10sguy
02-10-2007, 05:57 PM
NorCal is really screwed up according to my friends. (copy/pasted from above)
************************************************** *******

Why not (I'm serious) suggest to your friends that they consider volunteering with NorCal to help solve what they say is so screwed up.

Raiden.Kaminari
02-10-2007, 06:45 PM
We took 4th at nationals. We played well in the round-robin portion, beating two of the three teams we played, to make the semi-finals. We then came up against the Puerto Rican team. Right from the first serve of the first match it was clear that we had no chance. They were definitely a solid group of 3.5s! It was a lot of fun, there were a lot of really good players, and I have no need to do it again.

That's funny you mention this ... as I posted on the other thread, your Hall Ranch (http://www.ustanorcal.com/teaminfo.asp?id=25800) team was known to have many poorly self-rated players. I think it was at least 8 players. And there was an attempt to suspend your captain as well.

But some volunteers on the committees decided to give your team the benefit of doubt and let the players do the right thing. Yeah right ... like that's going to really happen. The USTA officials at the event were ****ed off that they couldn't nail either of your teams, because while they were at 3.5 level (and possibly above), everyone didn't strike out.

Both teams were being scrutinized very closely, according to a close friend. Anyway, things are changing and they should start suspending the bad captains who recruit poorly self-rated players from now on.

Joeyg
02-10-2007, 08:08 PM
I am pretty sure that 10SGUY is a board member of USTA NorCal. I would take anything he says in regard to NorCal with a large grain of salt. I do give him credit for volunteering his time, but I find it interetsing that he is asking others to volunteer. The problem with NorCal is weak leadership and the fact the the board is too busy prottecting their own self interests to deal with problems of the rank and file. They are still patting themselves on the back about what a great success league tennis is. In my opinion league tennis is successful in spite of the way that USTA NorCal governs it. No 3rd set, TPI, multiple teams for individual players, no visual ratings, board members elected by proxy,etc.

10sguy
02-10-2007, 11:44 PM
I am pretty sure that 10SGUY is a board member of USTA NorCal. I would take anything he says in regard to NorCal with a large grain of salt. I do give him credit for volunteering his time, but I find it interetsing that he is asking others to volunteer. The problem with NorCal is weak leadership and the fact the the board is too busy prottecting their own self interests to deal with problems of the rank and file. They are still patting themselves on the back about what a great success league tennis is. In my opinion league tennis is successful in spite of the way that USTA NorCal governs it. No 3rd set, TPI, multiple teams for individual players, no visual ratings, board members elected by proxy,etc.

Ha-ha-ha (I have to admit - now I'm wondering just who I AM!) LOL!!

Uh, "no third set" - OK, where in the USA can you find a USTA league where full third sets are played on a regular basis? "TPI" - What's THAT???
"No visual ratings" - Where in the USA can you find visual ratings in effect??

kylebarendrick
02-10-2007, 11:44 PM
That's funny you mention this ... as I posted on the other thread, your Hall Ranch (http://www.ustanorcal.com/teaminfo.asp?id=25800) team was known to have many poorly self-rated players. I think it was at least 8 players. And there was an attempt to suspend your captain as well.

But some volunteers on the committees decided to give your team the benefit of doubt and let the players do the right thing. Yeah right ... like that's going to really happen. The USTA officials at the event were ****ed off that they couldn't nail either of your teams, because while they were at 3.5 level (and possibly above), everyone didn't strike out.

You know, it's awfully easy to look at a team's record and declare them to be cheaters, especially after they've beaten you. While I'll agree that we had a few players who could potentially have self-rated as 3.5s, none of them have performed particularly well at the 3.5 level. Everybody rated within the elite player guidelines and everybody tried to win matches by as large a margin as possible - and yes this resulted in some disqualifications.

Everybody on the team played close matches against 3.0s and everybody lost multiple matches during the season/playoffs. In the end we came up against players that we just couldn't touch. I would argue that everything we did was within the rules - and this was confirmed by both the grievance committee and the appeal board.

FWIW, I fully support using verifiers at (as a minimum) the district and sectional levels to disqualify clearly out of level players. I'm not sure how feasible it would be at the local league level, but I'd be all for that too.

grimmbomb21
02-11-2007, 12:13 AM
That's funny you mention this ... as I posted on the other thread, your Hall Ranch (http://www.ustanorcal.com/teaminfo.asp?id=25800) team was known to have many poorly self-rated players. I think it was at least 8 players. And there was an attempt to suspend your captain as well.

But some volunteers on the committees decided to give your team the benefit of doubt and let the players do the right thing. Yeah right ... like that's going to really happen. The USTA officials at the event were ****ed off that they couldn't nail either of your teams, because while they were at 3.5 level (and possibly above), everyone didn't strike out.

Both teams were being scrutinized very closely, according to a close friend. Anyway, things are changing and they should start suspending the bad captains who recruit poorly self-rated players from now on.

I take it you lost to them?

Raiden.Kaminari
02-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Nope ... I'm in SoCal.

What's really interesting was how NorCal tried to suspend kyle's captain, since there were 8 bad self-rates, and that they were detected after three players had three striked (but only two of them played at 3.0).

Another fine example of a NorCal tennis team trying to cheat the system.

kylebarendrick
02-16-2007, 01:15 AM
"The panel unanimously DENIES this grievance, in its entirety. The panel has researched the playing history of each of the players on this team and finds no clear evidence of abuse."

Players were DQ'd for attempting to win matches by the greatest margin possible - as they are supposed to. Previously played matches were forfeited per the rules.

amarone
02-16-2007, 04:29 AM
Uh, "no third set" - OK, where in the USA can you find a USTA league where full third sets are played on a regular basis? Atlanta. It's in our rules:

"Matches will be best 2 out of 3 complete sets.
In case of split sets a 10-minute rest period is
permitted. The 3rd set must then be played to
completion."

10sguy
02-16-2007, 12:04 PM
Atlanta. It's in our rules:

"Matches will be best 2 out of 3 complete sets.
In case of split sets a 10-minute rest period is
permitted. The 3rd set must then be played to
completion."

Thanks. Is that from one of the Southern Section's individual "State rules?" Various USTA sections are configured differently. Southern allows its states some degree of latitude to conduct league play within their state but when those state winners advance to Sectional Chanpionships . . . they're governed by Sectional rules, to wit:

SCORING AND REST. At the Southern Sectional Championships, all matches will be the best of two sets and the set tiebreak will be used at 6-all in each set. IN LIEU OF A THIRD SET, A MATCH TIEBREAK WILL BE PLAYED. There will be a two minute break at the end of each set with no coaching. The match tiebreak will be scored as one set and one game for tiebreaking procedures in the event of a tie. STATE ASSOCIATIONS IN THE SOUTHERN SECTION HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE THE METHOD OF SCORING FOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Bottom line: Consider yourself lucky if you're in a jusisdiction which allows the full third set to be played out. I must reluctantly agree mandating a tiebreak in lieu of a full third set does allow for much more efficient management of court scheduling issues . . . but strictly from a players standpoint, it stinks!

amarone
02-16-2007, 01:13 PM
Thanks. Is that from one of the Southern Section's individual "State rules?" Various USTA sections are configured differently. Southern allows its states some degree of latitude to conduct league play within their state but when those state winners advance to Sectional Chanpionships . . . they're governed by Sectional rules, to wit:

SCORING AND REST. At the Southern Sectional Championships, all matches will be the best of two sets and the set tiebreak will be used at 6-all in each set. IN LIEU OF A THIRD SET, A MATCH TIEBREAK WILL BE PLAYED. There will be a two minute break at the end of each set with no coaching. The match tiebreak will be scored as one set and one game for tiebreaking procedures in the event of a tie. STATE ASSOCIATIONS IN THE SOUTHERN SECTION HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DETERMINE THE METHOD OF SCORING FOR STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS.

Bottom line: Consider yourself lucky if you're in a jusisdiction which allows the full third set to be played out. I must reluctantly agree mandating a tiebreak in lieu of a full third set does allow for much more efficient management of court scheduling issues . . . but strictly from a players standpoint, it stinks! It is under USTA Atlanta rules, which differ in several places from the rest of the country because of the influence of the 800 lb gorilla called ALTA.

The following includes some supposition on my part.

USTA is already regarded as a means of keeping in trim between ALTA seasons for many players. ALTA plays 3 full sets. If USTA went to a tie-break 3rd, that would weaken USTA further.

Mind you, we do not have the same court-scheduling difficulties as many other places. USTA matches are played two at a time in Atlanta. One singles and doubles start first, then twos go on, and finally 3 doubles. This is (more supposition) because large numbers of tennis players here play out of their subdivisions, which usually don't have five courts.

10sguy
02-16-2007, 10:55 PM
Ah, the ALTA "gorilla" . . . it makes sense now. Thanks!

Eviscerator
07-22-2007, 11:08 PM
This thread might help, although it's just as likely to give you a headache (hopefully, the guys play better than they punctuate LOL)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=103321
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=103896

Interesting

sjdave
07-25-2007, 05:15 PM
I have captained and played in South San Jose for years and for the last three years, I have watched and played against the Backesto men teams. For a long time, I thought that the blatant abuse by these teams would be addressed by NorCal USTA or the Nationals committee. After all, they have grievance committees, three strikes rule, watch lists... Even just looking at the statistics of these players, the unusual patterns of long and winning...I thought that these cheaters were on a collision course with NorCal. Last year, when the 4.0 team got caught for using 4.5 players at Nationals, I thought maybe that moment had happened. The punishment was just. Noone on that team in Hawaii could not have known that they weren't participating in breaking the rules. Yet, now after a few appeals, I feel like a fool to think that something would actually happen. I guess I'm just tired of it all, but I made a decision to quit league tennis this season. Why participate in the facade? Every season, my very good team has to go and play pretend matches. Pretend that we can win. Pretend that we are participating in real matches against at level players? Pretend that the matches are actually closer than they are? The captain of the Backesto team even emailed me to warn me about a sandbagger on one of the other teams. Hilarious considering that, in my opinion, at least one of the Backesto players is 5.5 and at least five others are high 5.0.

Norcal USTA has no excuse for not taking action . They are cowards. They feel (and I have several emails from Bob Manolo and others that say as much) that there is very little cheating and that noone else is complaining. I've invited them out to several matches (as have others), but they are cowards to take action and do anything to make the situation better.

Funny thing is I've personally never lost against Backesto. Unfortunately, two of the matches were badly score-managed. In my last match against Thien An D Le, I beat a guy who had not lost in two seasons. Anyone who was there would tell you that he let me win the match and it was blatantly obvious.

I'm super competitive, considered a good player, and I've always wanted to play the best - at level players. I have always played by and respected the rules. I don't respect NorCal or Backesto Park. These guys will do anything to win, including playing down a level or two to do it. I guess they don't care or don't realize what they are doing to people who play by the rules and play at level. It's just not fun anymore. I hope that Backesto gets booed everywhere they play. I wish teams would boycott their matches or do something extreme enough that Norcal would get their heads out of their....out of the sand and realize that yes, people do cheat, and yes, sometimes they do it in a team effort of many individuals. I've not only complained, but provided solutions that I think would help stop the cheating, but none of it matters if NorCal and the USTA don't care. I will miss league, but at least I won't be frustrated every season watching good teams get beaten by obvious sandbaggers.

sjdave
07-25-2007, 05:48 PM
Well said. In my experience with NorCal, I have come to the same conclusion. NorCal tends to respond defensively by talking about all the volunteers. I thank the volunteers too, but it hasn't solved any of these problems yet. Dumb logic prevails. I had a friend who had rotator cuff surgery and did not play for two years. He was a 5.0 when he was injured. When he came back, he was not the same and he appealed his rating. He had a note from his surgeon, provided the requested information about his surgery...Norcal told him no good. I'm sure there are a lot of bogus medical appeals, but I still don't get the logic of trusting self-raters who have no history with Norcal while telling someone who has been in NorCal for ten years, never had a history of any kind of rule abuse that they don't know their level. My friend ended up not playing. If we don't know you, self rate as low as you want. If you come to us, have never cheated, have a surgeon's medical opinion, I'm sorry, but you can't be trusted. My friend should have done what the Backesto boys do and throw three straight matches at the higher level so that they can get bumped down. If you can't beat em, ...cheat and play at the lower level...

Joeyg
07-26-2007, 11:30 AM
SJDave: I agree with everything you have stated. Do we know each other? I think the 5.0 guy you are talking about is Sanjay, right? Bob Manolo and all of the other trolls at Norcal could care less about you or anyone else. All they really care about are the dollars.

I played league for a long time and am a very good 4.5. However, Norcal has F'd things up so badly with all of the BS in recent years that I am no longer playing any league tennis.

Timing
08-01-2007, 04:53 PM
Im glad NorCal compares their levels against National levels and not against locals or some individuals.

You can call NorCal cowards or sandbaggers if:

1.Norcal allows a team like Bakesto to win National championship at the same level every year and do nothing about it.

What Bakesto M4.5 has done besides beat up your underrated team and got to district. The same Bakesto team lost in the district last year 2006.

2.NorCal sends many great teams at different levels and win many National Championship. If I remember correctly, last year NorCal won only 3 category(M3.5, W3.5 and Senior W3.0) out of close to 100 category.

NorCal Tennis are so underrated. Only 2004 Mitchell Park M4.5B(with Luis Reis, David Halleck, Peter Nemecek x-pros)are comparable to the national level. This excellent team won the tie breaker on the deciding match to capture the national title for NorCal in 2004.

People like you have have brought NorCal level down. Please take a good look at yourself to see if you are competing at the correct level or at least go to one of the National Championship leaque events(AZ this year) so you can open your eyes. Do not just stay in your little circle and think that you are a good 4.5....perhaps you are only 3.5 at national level.

SJDave!! Luckily, some other M4.5 team will represent NorCal this year to the National instead of your team. That would be a disgrace for all NorCal members.

Timing
08-01-2007, 04:55 PM
Im glad NorCal compares their levels against National levels and not against locals or some individuals.

You can call NorCal cowards or sandbaggers if:

1.Norcal allows a team like Bakesto to win National championship at the same level every year and do nothing about it.

What Bakesto M4.5 has done besides beat up your underrated team and got to district. The same Bakesto team lost in the district last year 2006.

2.NorCal sends many great teams at different levels and win many National Championship. If I remember correctly, last year NorCal won only 3 levels(M3.5, W3.5 and Senior W3.0) out of close to 100 levels.

NorCal Tennis are so underrated. Only 2004 Mitchell Park M4.5B(with Luis Reis, David Halleck, Peter Nemecek x-pros)are comparable to the national level. This excellent team won the tie breaker on the deciding match to capture the national title for NorCal in 2004.

People like you have have brought NorCal level down. Please take a good look at yourself to see if you are competing at the correct level or at least go to one of the National Championship leaque events(AZ this year) so you can open your eyes. Do not just stay in your little circle and think that you are a good 4.5....perhaps you are only 3.5 at national level.

SJDave!! Luckily, some other M4.5 team will represent NorCal this year to the National instead of your team. That would be a disgrace for all NorCal members.

Joeyg
08-02-2007, 06:06 AM
Dear Timing,

What a serious load of garbage. I sure would like to know who you reallly are. I know most of the guys on the Backesto Park team, and all of the guys from the Mitchell Park team that you reference, as I played on it the year before. I suspect you have some type of tie to this team.

Why don't you let people know about the Backesto team being moved up to 5.0 three years ago and then tanking their matches to get moved back down? How about the roving captaincy to avoid paying the $18 registration fee? How about one of their ex-members going to Nationals at 4.0 and pretending to be someone else? Yeah, they are TRULY the team Norcal wants to represent them at Nationals. They exhibit all of the attributes Norcal expected when they changed the rules and did away with raters and took the teeth away from verifiers!

Truthfully, I couldn't find a team that is better suited to represent Norcal at Nationals. Go Backesto!

AP328
08-02-2007, 07:45 AM
OK, if i insulted you i truly Apologize, but the Corruption in Chicago area is so bad, i take the subject matter passionately. I moved from a city where USTA system was fair and very few sandbaggers exist and USTA league was growing and live with energy and people couldn't wait to start up a new team and so on. What is going on Chicago is truly sad in a great city like this..........................:sad:

sound like the days of Al Capone!?!?;)

AP328
08-02-2007, 07:48 AM
LOL! Are you kidding?? You think your best player was a 3.0?? No way. I watched their match. Yes, our man did look bored when he played, he's a laid back guy. But don't come here and try to tell these guys that your player was a legit 3.0. I thought that they were both hitting some shots that a 3.0 wouldn't make.

Also, each of the other teams we beat that weekend had at least one guy that was not a 3.0! Our two best doubles players ended up getting moved up at the end of the season, along with our number one singles.

BTW, you can thank those two doubles players for leaving early and not playing Sunday. Had we not forfeited their match, we would have moved on and won Nationals.

;)

Ok, I'm curious...what kind(s) of shots would you say push someone from 3.0 to 3.5? I would like to know what to look for in my opponents and what to aspire to in my game.

AP328
08-02-2007, 08:06 AM
Ahhh, just trying to bring a little humor to this thread. Sometimes its hard to tell if one is joking or not online. Thanks for the belief in my tennis history. I hope I can continue to improve, but the jump from 4.5 to 5.0 appears to be much harder than just getting to 4.5.

Wow...impressive. What other sport did you play?

simi
08-02-2007, 08:33 AM
Ok, I'm curious...what kind(s) of shots would you say push someone from 3.0 to 3.5? I would like to know what to look for in my opponents and what to aspire to in my game.

Just consistency. A 3.0 player can produce an amazing shot, once maybe even twice in a match; as good as anything a 4.0 or 4.5 player can make. However, it won't happen very often. There will be a whole lot more unforced errors than winners at the lower levels.

duffman
08-02-2007, 08:53 AM
Wow...impressive. What other sport did you play?

I pretty much play and enjoy all sports, except for soccer, but my best sport was baseball where a I played Division 1 college.

duffman
08-02-2007, 08:55 AM
Dear Timing,

What a serious load of garbage. I sure would like to know who you reallly are. I know most of the guys on the Backesto Park team, and all of the guys from the Mitchell Park team that you reference, as I played on it the year before. I suspect you have some type of tie to this team.

Why don't you let people know about the Backesto team being moved up to 5.0 three years ago and then tanking their matches to get moved back down? How about the roving captaincy to avoid paying the $18 registration fee? How about one of their ex-members going to Nationals at 4.0 and pretending to be someone else? Yeah, they are TRULY the team Norcal wants to represent them at Nationals. They exhibit all of the attributes Norcal expected when they changed the rules and did away with raters and took the teeth away from verifiers!

Truthfully, I couldn't find a team that is better suited to represent Norcal at Nationals. Go Backesto!


Oops, looks like Timing barked up the wrong tree on this one, lol. Go get him Joey!

Joeyg
08-02-2007, 10:45 AM
It's weasels like Timing and the trolls at USTA Norcal that have allowed this type of stuff to go on. Bob Manolo, the head of leagues knows what is going on, and refuses to do anything about it. I am so done with league tennis. In my opinion, if you are caught sandbagging you should be banned for LIFE! This would effectively eliminate cheating and the few who would be caught wouldn't really affect the USTA's bottom line. I think that the average league player would love to see cheaters get a lifetime ban. As it stands now, you just get a slap on the wrist. Oh, you naughty cheater! You under-rated. Well, we'll just bump you up. What a freakin' joke!

JLyon
08-02-2007, 11:08 AM
Joey all you have to do is look at the 4.5 Finals from last year between Texas and Florida:
#1 singles players are now rated 5.0 and 5.5 respectively.
The Texas Singles player the last 2 years had been routinely beating 5.0 and 5.5 players in tournaments and if someone had been watching close in 2005 he would have been DQ'ed and bumped to 5.0 since he had just graduated from a Top 15 DII school.
Also look at the SF and Finals Texas had 7 of 8 players in that match who are now 5.0 and Pennsylvania had 5 players now rated 5.0.
In the Finals Florida had 4 players now rated 5.0.
I am like you some lowly average 4.5 player tired of the bagging. I managed to corral 2 players this year trying to sneak in with self-rates. Do I feel bad **** no because it ruins the league.

Joeyg
08-02-2007, 11:17 AM
Actually, I am a very good 4.5. I have played both 4.5 and 5.0, and could more than hold my own at both levels. I am just tired of all of the cheating going on and people acting like it's no big deal. I'm sorry, but cheating to me is a very big deal and seeing these jerks get away with it just ****es me off big time.

However, with no consequences for their actions, they just keep doing it and work the system. The USTA only cares about your $$$ when you sign up. The junk coming out of the USTA's talking heads mouths is truly ridiculous to hear.

ktownva
08-02-2007, 11:58 AM
In my opinion, if you are caught sandbagging you should be banned for LIFE!

Just the captain and the sandbagger right? Not the whole team:confused:

AP328
08-02-2007, 01:33 PM
I pretty much play and enjoy all sports, except for soccer, but my best sport was baseball where a I played Division 1 college.

Cool...thanks. I actually grew up playing soccer, but will play nearly any sport I can.

Div 1 baseball - well done!

AP328
08-02-2007, 01:36 PM
Just consistency. A 3.0 player can produce an amazing shot, once maybe even twice in a match; as good as anything a 4.0 or 4.5 player can make. However, it won't happen very often. There will be a whole lot more unforced errors than winners at the lower levels.

Thanks Simi...that's what I thought. It has been my understanding (after 2 yrs of league play) that consistency is really the key difference between most levels. For me, it's the serve...:grin:

Timing
08-02-2007, 04:40 PM
JoeG,

How is that story of Bakesto(true or not) that you seem to have falling in-love with relates to putting down NorCal organization? Has NorCal took action on most issues that have brought to them?

Im done explaining to a few bad seeds that has a narrow vision and always bring negativeness.

Joeyg
08-03-2007, 06:38 AM
Timing,

I can't even begin to respond to your reply. I am not sure what you are trying to say. However, I will reiterate that USTA Norcal has allowed the Backesto team to basically cheat their way through the system, and you seem to think it is OK that they are rewarded for all of their misdeeds.

Thank you for the courtesy of a reply and if we run into each other, please feel free to introduce yourself to me. I would be happy to discuss all of my issues with the USTA Norcal board and organization with you in great detail. Until then, please quit shilling for the USTA. They have enough sheep following them around.

tennisstuff
08-03-2007, 09:58 AM
Timming & Joey

I think both of you have your opinions well expressed. I've seen Backesto team played, and also have seen National 4.5 level players played, Backesto team is somewhere in the middle of those pack. As much as anyone think Backesto are cheating, I personally don't think they are a SURE win if they make it to National.... I'd be surprised if they can make it to the top 4. Needless to say anything further, a solid & well executed 4.5 players can win over an average 5.0 or even a 5.5 players in any match that matter (we often whispering it as "choked").... No system is perfect, I think Norcal did a good job, although it could be better... So, give them time... why quit tennis, quitters never win... Let's enjoy it.

sjdave
08-03-2007, 10:07 AM
Im glad NorCal compares their levels against National levels and not against locals or some individuals.

You can call NorCal cowards or sandbaggers if:

1.Norcal allows a team like Bakesto to win National championship at the same level every year and do nothing about it.

What Bakesto M4.5 has done besides beat up your underrated team and got to district. The same Bakesto team lost in the district last year 2006.

2.NorCal sends many great teams at different levels and win many National Championship. If I remember correctly, last year NorCal won only 3 levels(M3.5, W3.5 and Senior W3.0) out of close to 100 levels.

NorCal Tennis are so underrated. Only 2004 Mitchell Park M4.5B(with Luis Reis, David Halleck, Peter Nemecek x-pros)are comparable to the national level. This excellent team won the tie breaker on the deciding match to capture the national title for NorCal in 2004.

People like you have have brought NorCal level down. Please take a good look at yourself to see if you are competing at the correct level or at least go to one of the National Championship leaque events(AZ this year) so you can open your eyes. Do not just stay in your little circle and think that you are a good 4.5....perhaps you are only 3.5 at national level.

SJDave!! Luckily, some other M4.5 team will represent NorCal this year to the National instead of your team. That would be a disgrace for all NorCal members.

Despite my belief that it's fruitless to argue with an idiot, I will respond. I think you meant to say that most teams are over-rated.

1. My issue isn't the same team winning Nationals. My issue is that a team and win Nationals without score managing, cheat self ratings, managing their ratings so that they can stay below their rightful level and dominating at a lower level. You would probably try to justify the 4.0 Men's team's decision to knowingly cheat and play 4.5s at Nationals.

2. I would rather be represented by people with character at Nationals. Not players who openly cheat and brag about it.

I've beaten plenty of good players and I don't need to defend my level to you. Unlike the cheaters of Backesto, I've always played my very best and sought out matches against the better players, never ducked a match against anyone, and when I was bumped up to 4.5s, I excelled at the higher level and didn't tank all my matches so that I could dominate. The fact that I touched a nerve that prompted you to attack me and tell me that a team that wants to play at level and not cheat tells me that you are probably on the Backesto Park team or NorCal. I bet you are on Backesto. By the way that's great logic saying that Mitchell Park team had three x-pros. Don't you understand that they weren't playing withing level. That's called cheating. Good luck at Nationals! When you win Nationals at your real level, please post and tell us all about it.

sjdave
08-03-2007, 10:32 AM
Dear Timing,

What a serious load of garbage. I sure would like to know who you reallly are. I know most of the guys on the Backesto Park team, and all of the guys from the Mitchell Park team that you reference, as I played on it the year before. I suspect you have some type of tie to this team.

Why don't you let people know about the Backesto team being moved up to 5.0 three years ago and then tanking their matches to get moved back down? How about the roving captaincy to avoid paying the $18 registration fee? How about one of their ex-members going to Nationals at 4.0 and pretending to be someone else? Yeah, they are TRULY the team Norcal wants to represent them at Nationals. They exhibit all of the attributes Norcal expected when they changed the rules and did away with raters and took the teeth away from verifiers!

Truthfully, I couldn't find a team that is better suited to represent Norcal at Nationals. Go Backesto!

Exactly.

Timing, If you watched Backesto play in league (and I suspect you were on the court with them), you would have seen many, many things that would have struck you as odd or peculiar. I've seen things happen in matches with this team that I've never seen with any other team (including Mitchell Park). I do not believe that any player or team that is better than me or my team is cheating. Just these guys. If it was one sandbagger, I probably wouldn't bother to mention it. This is a whole team with a history. Your suggestion that maybe I belong in 3.5 is spot on. If I want to win at Nationals these days, I probably need to think like you and your teammates. I should get a group of good 4.5s together and tank all of our matches until we get to 3.5. During league, we'll keep it on the down low and ignore that everyone sees exactly what we are doing. We'll make sure all of the matches seem closer than they actually are, beat the heck out of other teams, smile weakly at other players in our area when anyone suggests that what we are doing is suspect, and pretend to be nice guys, ... and win the Nationals and we'll say that we are doing it for the good of every member of NorCal.

sjdave
08-03-2007, 10:55 AM
Timming & Joey

I think both of you have your opinions well expressed. I've seen Backesto team played, and also have seen National 4.5 level players played, Backesto team is somewhere in the middle of those pack. As much as anyone think Backesto are cheating, I personally don't think they are a SURE win if they make it to National.... I'd be surprised if they can make it to the top 4. Needless to say anything further, a solid & well executed 4.5 players can win over an average 5.0 or even a 5.5 players in any match that matter (we often whispering it as "choked").... No system is perfect, I think Norcal did a good job, although it could be better... So, give them time... why quit tennis, quitters never win... Let's enjoy it.

Last post today. I promise. I'm not quitting tennis. I love it too much. I'm only quitting NorCal and adult league because I'm tired of the facade that, despite what Timing might say, my very good team will never sniff districts again with the teams who have taken cheating to another level. I'm tired of the facade of playing against a team in a fake match, with fake points and fake individuals. I agree that no system is ever perfect, but I think the real quitters are NorCal. They won't admit that the existing rules are ineffective and that cheating is worse than they think it is. Is it just a matter of time?

Joeyg
08-03-2007, 01:42 PM
Thanks to all who replied. I don't care if Backesto wins at Nationals. My whole point is that they are cheating to get there at the 4.5 level. That there are other teams doing the same thing is irrelevant.

As far as Timing's comments are concerned, I KNOW what is going on. The "allegations" that I made are completely true, and I can name names, if you would like. However, I think you would rather I wouldn't. Perhaps, you are one of those on the team that manages their scores or outright tanks a match to stay a 4.5. I can only guess who you might be, or what your connection tho the Backesto team is, but if I were you I would keep my protestations to myself before someone exposed you as the fraud you appear to be.

Once again, I encourage anyone with any interest in this matter to contact me by email directly or talking to me the next time you see me in Norcal. I have a pretty large presence there, and it isn't too difficult to find me.

Joeyg
08-04-2007, 10:29 AM
Tennisstuff, I am a little confused. How can anything I have said be construed as being hypocritical? I am not angry with you, but was wondering if perhaps you too have ties to the Backesto team. I find it hard to believe that anyone could come to their defense when the list of their misdeeds is staggering.

I am also not playing any more USTA League tennis. I am going to focus solely on age group tourneys in 2008.

By the way, it is spelled hypocrite.

Jack the Hack
08-05-2007, 10:25 AM
Wake-up, get out of your little narrow minded head.

So, if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying... right? :roll:

You pathetic losers that are either from Bakesto or defending them are the ones that need to wake up. The most you will get out of USTA League is a little silver plate and some brief mention in a couple tennis related newspapers. Is that really worth gaming the whole system and cheating like you've done repeatedly? Nobody really cares about your "national championship", especially if you play way below your level to get it. You're justification seems to be that everybody else is doing it, and some teams from other sections are worst (two wrongs make a right). Speaking for the thousands of USTA league participants that play the game honestly, you suck! Unfortunately, I don't think your narrow minded heads can understand this...

Joeyg
08-05-2007, 10:45 AM
Tennisstuff,

Why don't you have the guts to let me know who you really are. If you didn't know already, I am Joe Grech. I have a feeling that you are someone I know, but would rather pot shot me on these boards than talk to me like a man. Good luck at districts with your cheating friends.

Joeyg
08-05-2007, 04:54 PM
Tennisstuff,

I have not used the "F" word for USTA Norcal in any manner. I have only played in one match against the Backesto guys and that was when they played at the Fremont Tennis Center. You, however, are resorting to name calling and taunting.

Why don't you address the key issues. Backesto guys have managed scores to keep their ratings at 4.5. Backesto guys tanked matches at the 5.0 level to go back to 4.5 after they were bumped up in 2003. Backesto guys were suspended for using an alternate captain scheme, each member being changed to a "captain" to avoid paying league fees.

I challenge you to talk about these things in a rational manner, instead of flinging mud and trying to cloud the issue with your rhetoric. For you to call me a sore loser after one league match is as laughable as your hiding behind your "Tennisstuff" moniker and pointing a finger at me instead of the real cheaters and manipulators. Why don't you have the balls to email me directly, or better yet, give me a call and we'll set up a time and place where we can meet and discuss this face to face.

Timing
08-06-2007, 09:21 AM
I wasn't going to write anymore about this topic. It's a winless situation when you talk to a single minded person but.... I must because Im a psychiatrist. I treat mental illness people and I know JoeyG needs help.

People who show this obsessive compulsive behavior are depressed and suicidal. Obsessive compulsive behavior distant themself from everyone(give up tennis) and have recurrent/persistent thoughts(Backesto...Backestos...Backesto). Here's a site that might help you, joey http://www.aafp.org/afp/980401ap/eddy.html

One good advice: Let go of your recurrent/persistent thoughts about Backesto. Why lock yourself up? go out and play tennis again. Backesto careless about your whines and complaints; they still enjoy themself at district and sectional and national.

Good luck with your treatment and god bless.

sjdave
08-06-2007, 10:18 AM
sjDave, we used to complaint a lot about the same problem with other teams & players, but no longer. Don't quit tennis, enjoy it while you can and until you can't


tennisstuff, You and I just have a difference of opinion and ...that's OK. You think things are getting better and that people are working hard to fix problems. As well meaning as some folks may be, I don't see the changes coming.

I have never accused any other team of cheating before, but I have seen and experienced too much with the Backesto teams to believe anything else. Every once in a while, we'd run into a team with one or two questionably self-rated players and we'd just say, let's go out and beat them. I've also had other captains contact me with regards to filing a grievance against a questionable player and I've declined to participate because in every one of those situations, I felt that I had no information that supported the accusations...even in a few instances where I'd lost to the questionable player. I've actually never filed a grievance against another player or team before. So when I hear the "well-thought out" arguments from Timming and others that we are all just sore losers who can't play and our teams stink...to me that type of defensiveness just supports my argument. Now there are teams that have entire starting lineups that are more than questionable.

With sandbaggers, it is not only about the winning. It's about the keeping it close and the strategic losing to "make it look good" and to control ratings. It's when the team wins, but the best player surprisingly loses and weird stuff happens in that loss. I've been accused myself of sandbagging and I would always say, "I've never held back in a match and I've always been computer-rated so I depend on NorCal to manage my rating. If I get bumped up, so be it. I will do my very best at the higher level." I've had others that said I better be careful or suggest that I tank a match else I get bumped up and I've told them what I thought about that (wrong, wrong, wrong).

I've also been on some very good teams and I don't believe I've ever been on any with cheaters. If you look at the winning percentage of players who are bumped up from sectionals and national teams at the higher level, that is, look at how they did at the higher level, and you compare the percentages to the individuals on these teams, there are huge, hard to ignore differences. Unlike other teams and other individuals who excel or even go .500 when they are bumped from 4.0 to 4.5 or 4.5 to 5.0, when these players get bumped up, they lose every match until they get back to the level that they want to play at. And they do it as a group and end up on the same team where they start winning again.

It's all subjective right? For a number of years, I thought Norcal was doing a decent job too, but lately...I'm sorry, I've seen and experienced some things there too and again this is my opinion, but they don't think cheating is a problem and they aren't doing anything to improve the situation. Yes, I appreciate all the hard work and effort by the volunteers, but I haven't only complained. I've also suggested ways to improve and I've asked them for suggestions on anything that we could do as individuals and teams stop the cheating. Nothing. According to one email that I have from Bob Manolo, the majority is happy and the system is working. I guess it's too bad in the areas where people have found and taken advantage of holes in the system at the expense of the players who follow the rules.

In these posts, we state our opinions so it's OK to disagree. Because of the nature of the opinions, I don't blame anyone for getting defensive, but in my opinion, Backesto isn't fooling anyone. Especially this weekend, where they squeeked out every match 3-2. Just my opinion, but they could have won every match 5-0 if they wanted to, but they didn't. Some very interesting lineups. I wonder if we'll see Joe Tran or Dan Le playing singles at Nationals.

Tennisstuff, I applaud your optimism and your well articulated posts. I do appreciate your encouragement to keep playing. I would rather put my time and effort into something more meaningful and hopefully more real...(my family, coaching, running). Like I said, I'll keep playing tennis...just not adult league or anything that NorCal has a part in. I've had enough of that fraud for a while. I invited NorCal out to watch several matches, but they never showed up. Go figure.

Joey, I thought you raised many good points and I was in agreement with many things that you said. Your original post was about the 4.0 team and it still blows my mind that anyone can defend a team who sneaks 4.5 players into nationals. That one isn't subjective. It's just good old-fashioned cheating. Everyone who participated on that team on those days, knew and participated in cheating. The punishments should have been more severe, but through the appeals, the USTA showed that they don't want to send a serious message. I have a great book recommendation for you: "The Cheating Culture". A lot of great logic. The author says that when you have to cheat to compete (school, business, sports) and when cheating becomes normalized because governing bodies fail to govern, the true heroes are the people who refuse to have flexible morality and who choose to play by the rules even if it means losing to cheaters. Good luck to everyone!

sjdave
08-06-2007, 11:03 AM
I wasn't going to write anymore about this topic. It's a winless situation when you talk to a single minded person but.... I must because Im a psychiatrist. I treat mental illness people and I know JoeyG needs help. ....

One good advice: Let go of your recurrent/persistent thoughts about Backesto. Why lock yourself up? go out and play tennis again. Backesto careless about your whines and complaints; they still enjoy themself at district and sectional and national.

Good luck with your treatment and god bless.

Timng, Because of your antagonistic, defensive, and acidic posts, I do not believe that you help or treat anyone except for yourself. A real doctor would not diagnose someone as obsessive because they posted to the topic of discussion on a forum. Educated people can write a complete sentence.

I know that YOUR team doesn't care. You guys make that blatantly obvious. As you have spat and laughed in the faces of your competitors who play by the rules, noone has said "we really respect the way those guys play" or "there go true champions." We have laughed right back at you and said, who do they think they are fooling? We have asked how can you value something so much that you truly didn't earn or deserve? What are they getting out of this? BTW..we have also not even hated you. You simply aren't worth it. Most of all, we have termed it in one small, short word: sad. Enjoy all of your accomplishments!

Joeyg
08-06-2007, 01:55 PM
Tennisstuff, I seem to have gotten you confused with Timing. My apologies. I can see that you are trying to show that things are getting better in Norcal. I don't agree, but you are entitled to your opinion, and I support any forum that allows you to do so. As far as abuses of the rating system go, check out Tom and Tim Le's record in Norcal league and then their tournament results. How does anyone explain that.

Timing, you, on the other hand appear to be a real snake. You and I both know the kind of junk that the Backesto guys have pulled. Your attacking me in the guise of being a psychiatrist is just way too funny. I may be a tad OC, but you are exhibiting classic symptoms of deflection. By pointing the finger and ridiculing me, you are trying to say that those guys have done nothing wrong and that I am obsessing? That is a HUGE load of manure. Good luck with your practice.

I am now done with this thread. Take all of the pot shots at me that you'd like. I still welcome you to contact me directly someday and perhaps we can discuss this issue together off the boards.

Raf Tsew
08-10-2007, 02:34 AM
..........Last year, when the 4.0 team got caught for using 4.5 players at Nationals, I thought maybe that moment had happened. The punishment was just. Noone on that team in Hawaii could not have known that they weren't participating in breaking the rules. Yet, now after a few appeals,
............................
Funny thing is ................. In my last match against Thien An D Le, I beat a guy who had not lost in two seasons. ...........




I am still in the dark. Tennis Magazine's interview of Backesto Capt. Tuam Lam reported that he would appeal. According to SJDave's above, the appeals let the m4.0 guys off the hook. Is that true?

I am further confused thinking that the m4.0 team was being judged by its actions in Hawaii and not the other teams at Backesto? Do we judge them by association? Does anyone have a proof of the m4.5 team's member taking part in the m4.0 team's cheating at Nationals? Who are they?


If that's true, it's a shame.

Raf Tsew
08-10-2007, 03:04 AM
SJDave: I agree with everything you have stated. Do we know each other? I think the 5.0 guy you are talking about is Sanjay, right? Bob Manolo and all of the other trolls at Norcal could care less about you or anyone else. All they really care about are the dollars.

I played league for a long time and am a very good 4.5. However, Norcal has F'd things up so badly with all of the BS in recent years that I am no longer playing any league tennis.


Joey,

did you check out what SJDave said before you "agree with everything" he had stated?

In my last quote of SJDave's post

"Funny thing is ................. In my last match against Thien An D Le, I beat a guy who had not lost in two seasons. ........... "

You should not agree with that statement, Joey. I checked Le's last season records, the phrase "who had not lost in two seasons" is not true. Last season that guy had a 4-4 record.

I am not defending or attacking anyone but let the truth be a part of what we be judged with eventhough judging by the posts are not totally complete.

I just checked tennis link and saw that few guys from the former m4.0 Backesto team who had been here last october are now back playing league. Is there a rule (that's called Backesto rule) which requires ID check?

I guess that SJDave's team lost to the backesto m4.0 team again?

Raf Tsew
08-10-2007, 03:17 AM
Timng, Because of your antagonistic, defensive, and acidic posts, I do not believe that you help or treat anyone except for yourself. A real doctor would not diagnose someone as obsessive because they posted to the topic of discussion on a forum. Educated people can write a complete sentence.


People who claim that they are psychiatrists online are not very wise. Readers think of them as being crazy or impersonator. (Did Backesto also have impersonator(s) in Hawaii?)

People who do not believe a psychiatrist, who is brave enough to have disclosed their profession as a psychiatrist online, are doubters. They doubt everything including the records.

We don't get anywhere with this. I am going home.

Joeyg
08-10-2007, 09:57 AM
I really don't care what his win/loss record was. Those stats can be easily manipulated, which is one of the main points we were trying to make. I know that the player SJDave was talking about is easily a 5.0 and maybe better, even here in Norcal. As for the ID of the player who played as someone else at 4.0 Nationals when he was really a 4.5, I was told his identity in confidence. However, he used to be on the Backesto team as a 4.5 and 5.0, but played on a different team this year.

As of today, I am not going to respond to anything else in this post. I feel enough people know about things, but don't want to rock the boat. I guess cheating is OK here in Norcal as long as you only do it as an excuse to get to Nationals.

badmice2
08-15-2007, 04:49 PM
I pondered....

if anyone wants to do something about it, take this approach: any and all teams that plays in that flight should default the matches against Backesto - can you imagine the message you send to Norcal office? And if Norcal decides to send them to nationals, how would people think of that?

...something to laugh about....

Joeyg
08-15-2007, 06:26 PM
Dear Tennisstuff, why don't you tell them who I am? I plan on telling them to their face what I think of them and their antics whenever I run into one of them. I won't be going to sectionals,but feel free to let any one of the Backesto team know what I said about their cheating. If you think I am worried about one of them retaliating in some way, boy are you mistaken.

I obviously do not care who knows what I have said, as I posted my real name and phone number in the first post. So, for you or anyone to sggest that I am afraid of the Backesto team is beyond ridiculous!

In closing, as this will be my last post on the subject, good luck with your tennis and I hope your support of the cheaters gets you all of the respect you so richly deserve.

New Kid On the Block
08-16-2007, 11:38 AM
I think the there should be a rule at the Nationals that the teams that advance to the final 4 teams, should be a group in the next seasons pairings at Nationals.

Raiden.Kaminari
08-16-2007, 02:02 PM
I pondered....

if anyone wants to do something about it, take this approach: any and all teams that plays in that flight should default the matches against Backesto - can you imagine the message you send to Norcal office? And if Norcal decides to send them to nationals, how would people think of that?

...something to laugh about....

NorCal doesn't decide to send them to Nationals.

While the idea may seem amusing, I would advise against defaulting matches to Backesto. The teams that would do that would get an administrative grievance filed against them, leading to a Null & Void for the team, and suspensions for everyone on the team.

That would be like shooting yourself in the head and dying to make a point about not shooting yourself in the head.

New Kid On the Block
08-20-2007, 09:37 PM
I think ******* might even be more crooked then no cal.

stevied
08-30-2007, 08:03 PM
The USTA blew it big time with these suspensions, I know 90% of these players & I have heard I wasn't even there, I didn't know these guys etc. I know the whole story, I know the 2 players that played under false names & so does everyone that was there because we all play at the same club. This is so friggin weak for these guys to do this a for a t-shirt. I know people take tests in college for their friends but come on, we are adults here. Now the USTA will check your ID, so, now cheaters will get a fake ID. USTA sucks because they would rather have your money. Congratulations for coming in second place in the whole nation.........NOT

Joeyg
08-30-2007, 08:33 PM
I'm glad someone else has the guts to stand up and call a spade a spade. To have a team play two imposters at Nationals is beyond belief. USTA National did the right thing by suspending the players who attended and or played. My only regret is that they backed down on the suspensions during the appeal process. I find it hard to believe that you played on the team all year, but when the imposters played you pretended that you didn't know they weren't team members? RIGHT!! As for the captain not being there and proclaiming no knowledge of the events, I just have one question. What were these imposters from Norcal doing in Hawaii at the same time as Nationals? Just doing a little surfing with their buddies on the Backesto team?

I think that the proper punishment should have been a lifetime ban from all USTA events. Of course, that would have cost the USTA money and we all know what they think of that. Imagine the impact a lifetime ban on cheaters would have. I think if this threat were hanging over peoples heads, there would be much less BS going on.

stevied
08-30-2007, 09:25 PM
Joey G hit it right on the head, in California 3 strikes & you are out when found guilty. Of course a major crime is different from cheating in tennis but the point is why is there only a slap on the wrist? The majority of players in the USTA play at the level they belong. I say suspend these guys for life because you are talking about 2 dozen guys at the most. USTA doesn't want to lose around $600 for doing this but think about it. How many teams did they beat? What if all those players that are playing at the level they belong just say screw it, I'm not playing anymore. Do the math USTA...

New Kid On the Block
08-31-2007, 05:42 AM
Joey G hit it right on the head, in California 3 strikes & you are out when found guilty. Of course a major crime is different from cheating in tennis but the point is why is there only a slap on the wrist? The majority of players in the USTA play at the level they belong. I say suspend these guys for life because you are talking about 2 dozen guys at the most. USTA doesn't want to lose around $600 for doing this but think about it. How many teams did they beat? What if all those players that are playing at the level they belong just say screw it, I'm not playing anymore. Do the math USTA...

Three strikes is way to much. In the case of the No Cal team that used imposters to play matches, that Captain Should be suspended for 10 years. And the players for 10 years as well.

You have to hit them with what amount to a death sentence. Anything less encourages people to try to do the same. Teams that use sandbaggers is onne thing, teams that use people who are not even on their roster is completly another. That needs to be dealt with Harsly.

stevied
08-31-2007, 11:18 PM
I agree with you, the thing most people don't know about this team is that these guys wouldn't even had made it to the nationals because they are 4.0 and I have been playing tennis for 25 years, I am a 4.5 & I can serve as hard with my left hand as they serve with their right hands. You know when you are in the playoffs & the match is on the line what would you do if the guy serving was pooping it in like a 10 year old floridian girl? You would rip it right through his partners chest. Any good doubles team would do it & say if he gets a stick on it, close because you will be able to put the next shot right through him. The bottom line is they played for 3 months, then had playoffs, districts, sectionals & nationals. What a waste of time to say you finished 2nd, I guarentee you if this team played straight up they would not win a match at nationals at 3.5. They are so happy they fooled the USTA for being a team that couldn't punch their way out of a wet paper bag...

Joeyg
09-01-2007, 05:40 AM
I wonder how it feels to sacrifice your integrity for a tee shirt? Of course, that means you need to have some in the first place. Go team! Wear that 2nd place finish with pride!

stevied
09-08-2007, 11:18 PM
You know how they take a lot of pictures a districts & sectionals? Well I would guess they take more pictures at nationals because people are coming from all over the U.S. When will we see the imposters pix? I heard one guy was left handed however at nationals he was right handed. I bet it wasn't one of the Jensen brothers.....

JavierLW
09-09-2007, 08:03 AM
Hey Joey, sounds like you still whining about those guys at Backesto. I suggest you and/or anyone who "love to hate" that team to go there and talk to them face to face, It will be interesting to see what you get in return for acussing them of cheating & sandbagging. Now is the great time to do that, because they've made it to Sectional.

He's not "accussing" them of cheating, they were "caught" cheating, there is a huge diffrence.

Perhaps if the USTA actually enforced their own rules and didnt let these guys off the hook, we wouldnt be having this discussion.

Someone ought to keep "whining" about these guys, they deserve it.

Fedace
09-09-2007, 08:04 AM
NorCal doesn't decide to send them to Nationals.

While the idea may seem amusing, I would advise against defaulting matches to Backesto. The teams that would do that would get an administrative grievance filed against them, leading to a Null & Void for the team, and suspensions for everyone on the team.

That would be like shooting yourself in the head and dying to make a point about not shooting yourself in the head.

I say USTA suspend all Norcal division from playoff for next 3 years, i think that would be the best solution.

goober
09-09-2007, 08:30 AM
I say USTA suspend all Norcal division from playoff for next 3 years, i think that would be the best solution.

lol- pot meet the black kettle.

andfor
09-09-2007, 02:09 PM
I say USTA suspend all Norcal division from playoff for next 3 years, i think that would be the best solution.

That would have to also include the Stanford men's tennis program until they can be at the very least competitive again.

Joeyg
09-09-2007, 05:33 PM
It will be interesting to see the Backesto 4.5 guys records next year after they get bumped up to 5.0. I wonder if they will tank all of their matches again like they did in 2003 and get bumped back to 4.5 for another shot at Nationals. Oh and Tennisstuff, why don't you come out and tell people that you are affilated with the Backesto team?

Joeyg
09-09-2007, 05:33 PM
It will be interesting to see the Backesto 4.5 guys records next year after they get bumped up to 5.0. I wonder if they will tank all of their matches again like they did in 2003 and get bumped back to 4.5 for another shot at Nationals. Oh and Tennisstuff, why don't you come out and tell people that you are affilated with the Backesto team?

JLyon
09-09-2007, 06:19 PM
It will be interesting to see the Backesto 4.5 guys records next year after they get bumped up to 5.0. I wonder if they will tank all of their matches again like they did in 2003 and get bumped back to 4.5 for another shot at Nationals. Oh and Tennisstuff, why don't you come out and tell people that you are affilated with the Backesto team?

Joey why wait for Backesto to tank, look at last years 4.5 Chumps out of San Antonio, check out the San Antonio 5.0 league specifically the Danny Four Five Team. Those players were all bumped to 5.0 for this year and you can tell obviously what they are doing, add in Reid Strand (former IU player and Top Texas Jr) and Chance Morgan (former #1 Texas junior) and you can see what they are doing to get ready for next year. these teams make a complete mockery of USTA.

Raiden.Kaminari
09-10-2007, 12:20 AM
That is why the only solution is to take away the carrot ... no more Nationals ... until some of these Sections get their act together.

At the 2.5 level, you have 3.5 level players
At the 3.0 level, you have 4.0 level players
At the 3.5 level, you have 4.5 level players
At the 4.0 level, you have 5.0 level players
At the 4.5 level, you have 5.5 level players
At the 5.0 level, you have 6.0 level players

Most of the players playing post season critical District and Sectional matches should get bumped .5. If a team dominates a particular Section and makes Nationals easily, they should get moved up 1.0

Joeyg
09-13-2007, 05:25 AM
I think anyone playing Fakesto should play one point and retire.

cak
09-14-2007, 02:51 PM
I think anyone playing Fakesto should play one point and retire.

Well, obviously if you really wanted to take an entire team down, and were able to get most the other teams to agree, you'd simply go out there and and give away every game. Three matches of bagels and the pretty much any player would be DQ'd. Though I'm thinking they would come back and try and lose some games too, and those would be thoughly entertaining matches, just to see some godawful tennis.

Joeyg
09-14-2007, 04:25 PM
Trust me. As soon as the Fakesto guys saw you were tanking, they would start playing with their non-dominant hand. I know for a fact that at 5.0's one of their guys with a sweet two handed backhand started playing a match hitting only one handers to solidify his chances of getting beat and moving back down to 4.5.

If there is a team that is any lower than these clowns, I don't know who it is.

10sguy
09-14-2007, 09:47 PM
I think anyone playing Fakesto should play one point and retire.

Ah, an innovative idea (one which I too have pondered); Hey, every opposing team in evary match could even show up with as few as four players. They'd default two and play ONE POINT (only) in the remaining three matches and then someone on each court would suddenly "become" ill or injured. Now I'm wondering how retirement match "wins" are treated. Are they even considered a "match played?" Remember, there are minimum numbers of "matches played" requirements to qualify for postseason play. Hmmmm!

amarone
09-15-2007, 04:33 AM
Now I'm wondering how retirement match "wins" are treated. Are they even considered a "match played?" Remember, there are minimum numbers of "matches played" requirements to qualify for postseason play. Hmmmm! Retirements do count towards eligibility for postseason. They do not count towards NTRP. In fact, even one forfeit counts towards postseason eligibility (in our Atlanta/Georgia rules - I don't know if it is the same everywhere).

So the effect of your plan would be that the team would win their division and qualify for postseason; all their players would qualify (probably - not mathematically certain) and nobody would get bumped.

JavierLW
09-15-2007, 11:02 PM
Gentleman, as you can see, JoeyG does have the "Backesto’s Obsessive Disorder". His ideas & imaginations for the Backesto guys are endless, he has every say in all Backesto’s postings (BTW: nothing nice). And Backesto, bring home the National Championship… For Joey… Go NorCal!!!!

Oh my god. You apparently dont know the meaning of the word objective....

There is nothing nice to say about cheaters. (and they were caught cheating, it's not allegations at that point)

I see you are following him around like a good little Backesto follower, how's that for obsessive compulsive behavior??

Joeyg
09-16-2007, 06:19 AM
You know, Tennisstuff, all we have done is point out how the Backesto team has cheated and sleazed their way to Nationals. You act as if they have done nothing wrong. I truly believe YOU have some tie to the team, either on it, or friends with them. Yet, you continue to hide behind a phony screen name and tell people that Stevied and I are just expressing sour grapes.

I am truly hopeful that you and I will meet some day and I can tell you to your face what I think about the Backesto 4.5 and 4.0 cheaters that are allowed to continue their dishonest junk in Norcal. As far as I am concerned, it is people like you that think what they have done is no big deal that is a big part of the problem in Norcal.

I am sure you will post again saying something to the effect that I am obsessing over the issue, but in reality all I am doing is trying to convey my feeling that what the Fakesto team has done and continues to do, will be the death knell of league tennis. Any time you wish to discuss this, go to the first post and call my phone number. I don't have any problem letting people know who I really am. Unlike some I could name.

Oh by the way, enjoy the t shirt from Nationals! I hope it was worth sacrificing what little integrity you must have left.

Joeyg
09-17-2007, 06:03 AM
It's just amazing how you can keep avoiding the reality that you are either a part of this group of cheaters or a friend of theirs, Tennisstuff. You just continue to troll this thread and act as if they have done nothing wrong. You are truly a sad little man, and obviously quite deluded.

Personally, I don't choose to condone cheating. You on the other hand, seem to have no problem with it.

Raiden.Kaminari
09-19-2007, 01:08 AM
Joeyg, seriously though ... you should "let it go" regarding Backesto.

Yes, there appears to be a core group of players associated with the team that have a very bad tendency to cheat at all costs. Yes, USTA Nationals was too lenient on most of them.

Maybe USTA Nationals will finally create a rule to deal with teams like Backesto, who somehow keep finding loopholes.

However, what they do, in the end, is really between God and themselves. When a few of the players finally meet God, are they going to be able to stand tall and proudly say, "I won Nationals by cheating at all costs." I can imagine would God say, "Good for you ... now go to hell." :-D

But hey ... I don't want to start any blasphemous rumours.

Joeyg
09-19-2007, 08:15 AM
Raiden,

The only time I respond any longer is when Tennisstuff posts a response. I am fairly certain that he is on the Fakesto team or plays at 13th street with them. He posts as if he is taking the high road and that I am obsessive about the team. He uses this forum as a means of downplaying what they did, and acts as if they did nothing wrong, that they were just doing what everyone else was doing. I find that offensive and will continue to post as long as that moron continues to try and justify their actions.

Sincerely,

Joe Grech

Raiden.Kaminari
09-19-2007, 09:56 AM
I agree that it appears that he is on the Backesto team. I'm sure all the other posters realize it as well.

However, as a neutral person, I am more concerned that you're letting his posts get under your skin, which is probably what Backesto likes to do to people. So don't fall for their mind games and just let it go.

Jack the Hack
09-21-2007, 11:42 AM
It’s ludicrous, and more amusing the way keep bashing at this group (Backesto), most noticeably the way he did it with “angers & profanities”, when there are thousands of sandbaggers out there.

A thousand wrongs does not make a right. You and the rest of the Backesto team are cheaters, just like anybody else who breaks the rules in the USTA League. However, what the Backesto 4.0 team did at Nationals last year went way beyond sandbagging. Furthermore, given what the 4.5 team is doing, it seems pretty obvious there is a cancer within that group that will win at all cost... never mind the rules, good sportsmanship, or fair play.

The puzzling thing is that I don't know why you guys do this. There is no prize money involved, and cheating to win is hollow. I've played tennis and other sports at a high competitive level for over 20 years now. The best wins I've ever experienced in sports were when I played extremely close contests, or played above my level and upset a better opponent. There is no joy in beating players lower than myself. If I had to cheat to get into a position where I was playing lower opponents, I don't know where I would get any pride in that. This appears to be a lesson lost on the players at Backesto. Therefore, even if they get a nice shiny plate at Nationals, they are still losers.

10sguy
09-21-2007, 03:12 PM
Rumor has it there MAY have been significant $$$ at stake concerning (1) Whether or not the "team" made it to Nationals last year, and (2) Whether or not the "team" would win it all (they didn't, and, if this rumor is anywhere close to the truth, that's good).

Likely ringleader: "Tom" (with a history of underhanded deeds).

Imposters: "Gia" & "Percy"

Run with it.

tennisstuff
09-21-2007, 03:41 PM
Jack the Hack, so you think one right would make thousands wrong? Perhaps, people should look at their own playing level and adjusted accordingly to nationwide levels for better competitions.

Joeyg
09-21-2007, 05:36 PM
Tennisstuff,

You have absolutely no credibility left. Why don't you go and troll some other posts. Everyone here is wise to your garbage.

Joeyg
09-21-2007, 06:31 PM
I also hope they enjoy the nifty t shirts!!

Joeyg
09-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Hey Tennisstuff! At least we aren't in the liars and cheaters section. Do you have to request that section when you fly somewhere? Why don't you tell everyone who you really are? That way all of the posters on this thread can see that you are part of the problem and not a part of the solution, mixing in your feeble attempts at mis-information. By pretending to be an innocent bystander in all of this, you should know that you are not fooling anyone.

Raiden.Kaminari
09-22-2007, 03:34 AM
Whoa ... I get the bad feeling that NorCal really needs to clean it's own house. I would have expected this thread to have died by now.

That's why I recommended that Nationals not be held until all the Sections cleaned their house. I know SoCal has some problems, but probably not to the extent NorCal does.

rooski
09-22-2007, 07:10 AM
Just so you guys know...this sandbagging/cheating stuff goes on in every section across the country. As someone said in this thread earlier, the system is broken and has been for a while. I got fed up several years ago and haven't been back to the league for this very reason. The USTA should send out random spotters to matches (will never happen of course) and simply bump up the blatant sand baggers and maybe even ban the captains. It's really too bad it has to be this way. Whatever happened to sportsmanship?

JavierLW
09-22-2007, 01:01 PM
Whoa ... I get the bad feeling that NorCal really needs to clean it's own house. I would have expected this thread to have died by now.

That's why I recommended that Nationals not be held until all the Sections cleaned their house. I know SoCal has some problems, but probably not to the extent NorCal does.

That's exactly why it's not bad to rat on these people continously.

Although hopefully while everyone is spending time on this thread they will take the time to complain to whoever is in charge of their section, and send a copy to someone in the National committee while you are at it.

And if nothing gets done, then so what, just keep complaining. You are the customers of this thing after all.

Especially in this case where someone clearly cheated and got away with it. That's not even close to the tons of other people out there that may just be playing below level but are at least following the rules.

JavierLW
09-22-2007, 01:05 PM
Just so you guys know...this sandbagging/cheating stuff goes on in every section across the country. As someone said in this thread earlier, the system is broken and has been for a while. I got fed up several years ago and haven't been back to the league for this very reason. The USTA should send out random spotters to matches (will never happen of course) and simply bump up the blatant sand baggers and maybe even ban the captains. It's really too bad it has to be this way. Whatever happened to sportsmanship?

The problem is (and why this subject will never die) is that in most cases the "sandbaggers" you speak of either are following the rules, or they just were never caught.

Usually whoever runs those leagues like to make this lame excuse when you complain and just say "let the system take care of it....". They were saying that over and over again when dynamic NTRP first showed up.

But in this case, the team was caught red handed cheating and nothing much happened to them. So the system of rules didnt just take care of it, it was ignored in this case.

Which means as far as the rules go, it's okay to cheat. Most of us do not want to play this way, and we are paying customers in this league (and there are far more of us, then there are of the cheaters) so we will continue to complain about it.

stevied
09-22-2007, 02:07 PM
It will never end with the sandbagging, look at 2004 5.0 national champs from SoCal, Bruce Man Son Hing killed everyone & he was actually rated 4.5 at the time. He played #1 at UC Irvine, he can beat most 5.0's if he played with a log. There are enough talented players at my club that I can hit with from now on instead of putting my money into the USTA's pocket.

Joeyg
09-28-2007, 11:32 AM
I find it hard to believe that TW has banned my friend, StevieD. However, they continue to let Tennisstuff continue to troll threads and act as if the Fakesto losers did anything wrong in their quest for a national title. Perhaps Stevie went a little too far when he told Tennisstiff that he was going to trace his IP address. Oh, well. Tennisstuff is still free to taunt and complain that the Fakesto crew was wrongly judged while Stevie D is banned. Justice? Who's to say?

JavierLW
09-28-2007, 11:42 AM
I find it hard to believe that TW has banned my friend, StevieD. However, they continue to let Tennisstuff continue to troll threads and act as if the Fakesto losers did anything wrong in their quest for a national title. Perhaps Stevie went a little too far when he told Tennisstiff that he was going to trace his IP address. Oh, well. Tennisstuff is still free to taunt and complain that the Fakesto crew was wrongly judged while Stevie D is banned. Justice? Who's to say?

Sorry to say it is Justice. Threatning that you are going to trace someone's IP address is much more serious, then being an idiot on some forum.

If it wasnt for the idiots, half of these threads wouldnt be nearly as long and they wouldnt of provided you the forum to keep harping on what really should be noted. (In a way Tennisstuff is providing a service and you should thank him)

Im sure stevied just wasnt thinking when he posted that, and he seemed to be okay otherwise (not that Im trolling all of HIS threads), but I can see where the people that run the board would take exception to that. (lawsuits, their reputation, etc...)

Lesson learned, dont make cyberthreats, even if you are just kidding and probally dont have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Joeyg
09-28-2007, 11:59 AM
Javier,

Duly noted. I know I am harping on this issue. That is the entire point.

Raiden.Kaminari
10-01-2007, 09:41 AM
Lesson learned, dont make cyberthreats, even if you are just kidding and probally dont have a clue as to what you are talking about.

Network security guys take Cyber threats very seriously. So do several government organizations.

I don't understand why some people feel they can post things anonymously and not have any retribution.