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raiden031
11-29-2006, 10:23 AM
I was looking up some players league results in my area and I didn't quite understand how certain players got bumped up while others didn't.

For one I saw a player win like 9 out of 10 matches and not get bumped up.

I then saw a player that played two matches, and lost one of them and got bumped up. How does that make sense?

kylebarendrick
11-29-2006, 10:45 AM
I was looking up some players league results in my area and I didn't quite understand how certain players got bumped up while others didn't.

For one I saw a player win like 9 out of 10 matches and not get bumped up.

I then saw a player that played two matches, and lost one of them and got bumped up. How does that make sense?

What were their records prior to those seasons? How were they people they played rated? How close were thematches? These questions are definitely part of the equation.

If a self-rated player (obviously with no previous record) plays two competitive matches against people highly rated within their level (or on their way to getting bumped), then that player is likely to get bumped. Similarly, a computer rated player that came into the season with a relatively low rating (like a 3.1 player at the 3.5 level), they can win a bunch of matches against weak 3.5s and not get bumped. You can't just look at wins and losses.

Geezer Guy
11-29-2006, 11:19 AM
Self-Rated players start out at the extreme high end of the range. They don't have to have very much success to get bumped up. Computer-Rated players, on the other hand, often need quite a bit of success to get bumped up.

tennisdarren
11-29-2006, 11:20 AM
Thats one of the reasons I no longer play USTA league play. The local league is rated by another clubs teaching pro, whenever a player from another team shows that he is competitive with players from the pros' club he magically gets rated up and off of his team. I am a 4.0 player and while I don't play league play any longer I have people I know that do, one man that I have never lost to led his team to a win over the pros' club team and whammo... hes now a 4.5 and without a team.

Geezer Guy
11-29-2006, 11:23 AM
The pro's don't have anything to do with how a player is rated, or whether or not he gets bumped.

DrewRafter8
11-29-2006, 11:38 AM
My understanding of how things work here in Eastern NC is like this. You could be bumped up after two matches if you played two quality opponents and demolished them. If you played two benchmark 4.0 players and defeated them both and only lost 3 games to each (6-2, 6-1 style) then you would be bumped up to 4.5. What I was told by a league coordinator is that if you win around 4 games in a match then it is considered competitive. If you win 3 games + in a set then you and your opponent are considered equals.

tennisdarren
11-29-2006, 11:45 AM
The pro's don't have anything to do with how a player is rated, or whether or not he gets bumped.

maybe where you live.

Geezer Guy
11-29-2006, 11:48 AM
The tennis pro at a club can certainly move people around in a local club league, or maybe even a city league - but they don't have any say in a USTA league.

tennisdarren
11-29-2006, 12:05 PM
Ever seen the Sopranos?

Dr. Van Nostrand
11-29-2006, 12:33 PM
Norcal has the three strikes rule for changing a player's rating during the season. It seems to apply pretty much only to self rated players. If you win three matches, not necessiarly consecutively by what Norcal considers to be lopsided scores a player will get their rating moved up and any matches they have played at their original level will all become losses. It may seem unfair to penalize the whole team by possibly causing them to lose some matches that had been victories but I guess the view is someone who rates themself too low is essentially cheating. The Norcal self rating guidelines say if you are in doubt about which of two levels to rate yourself at pick the higher one.

No club pro in Norcal has the ability to alter a player's rating even if his name is Tony Soprano.

migjam
11-29-2006, 01:02 PM
The PNW has the same three strikes rule as well.

Jack the Hack
11-29-2006, 02:51 PM
The PNW has the same three strikes rule as well.

From what I understand, the three strikes rule is nationwide.

We had one of our players disqualified this year via three strikes, and the sectional League director said that they have no control over it. She said all of the results are fed into TennisLink and the computer calculates the strikes based on the relative numerical ratings between opponents. The only way you can appeal a three strike disqualification is if there was a score that was misreported (ie you beat someone 7-5, 7-5 but the score got reported as 6-1, 6-2). That is why unscrupulous captains will "hide" their ringers (only play them in doubles 2 times before playoffs), or tell players to throw matches or games.

They say that it is very difficult to have a computer rated player strike out. The player that was disqualified on our team had been rated 4.0 for several years, but had recently decided to get more serious with the game. He was a great athlete and went 10-0 pretty easily (and was also doing very well for a 4.5 team). His third strike was after our 1st round of districts. If we had wanted to cheat, we would have buried him in the lineup, but we played straight up and honestly. Fortunately, we still made it to sectionals without him, but we were pretty disappointed to see what some of the other teams had done once we got there. I really believe that there is no way a team can advance to nationals or win there without cheating, and that is obviously sad.

migjam
11-29-2006, 04:52 PM
Which is another reason why I choose not to play USTA League tennis. It's a joke, players get buried all the time for the win. This past season when I played, the captain would have preferred if I would have made my matches closer. But thats not the way I play. I play to win and if that means winning quickly, so be it.

Cindysphinx
12-01-2006, 06:03 AM
I captain 5.5 ladies combo this fall. My No. 1 doubles team consisted of a self-rated 3.0 who lost 7 of 10 matches in the spring season. Her partner is a self-rated 2.5 who is quite strong, but who only started playing this fall.

These two have played three matches together, demolishing their opponents each time. They gave up 8 games over six sets.

Neither player moved up. I think the 3.0 didn't move up because she was only beating up on 5.5 doubles teams. I was surprised that the 2.5 didn't move up, though.

On the other hand, I had a 3.0 self-rated player who played two doubles matches this spring at 3.0 (lost them both) and who played two doubles matches at 3.5 (won one, lost one at No. 3 position). She moved up to 3.5, despite being 1-3 on the year.

This suggests to me that the best way to move up is to play up.

Jack the Hack
12-01-2006, 07:09 AM
This suggests to me that the best way to move up is to play up.

Cindy,

This is absolutely correct.

Remember that NTRP ratings are on a spectrum within the half point. This means a 3.5 rated player is actually rated somewhere between 3.01 and 3.50 in the TennisLink computer. Players at the high end of the spectrum (3.40 to 3.50) are expected to beat players at the lower end of the ratings by an average score of about 6-3, 6-3.

When you play up, you are exposed to players with higher actual computer ratings (down to the hundredth decimal point in the TennisLink database). If a player can keep the matches close against the higher rated players (you don't need to win, just get about 4+ games per set), their rating will rise also. If you play at your own level (self rated or computer rated), usually you are exposed to players with the same rating as you or lower. If you aren't winning by scores of 6-2, 6-2 or better - or hammering players rated lower than your level - you will not get bumped.

The problem is that some people are not motivated to get to a higher NTRP level. On the innocent side of this, these players may like playing League tennis with their friends and don't want their team broken up by ratings. Their motivation for playing tennis may be more for social reasons instead of competition. (Likely, these teams never make it to sectionals or beyond.) On the insidious side, there are captains or players the know how the system works and they purposely lose games or matches to lower rated players (in matches that won't effect their League standings) in order to purposely keep their ratings lower than their actual skillset in order to put together a team of ringers have a chance at winning sectionals or nationals.

cak
12-01-2006, 12:39 PM
I captain 5.5 ladies combo this fall. My No. 1 doubles team consisted of a self-rated 3.0 who lost 7 of 10 matches in the spring season. Her partner is a self-rated 2.5 who is quite strong, but who only started playing this fall.

These two have played three matches together, demolishing their opponents each time. They gave up 8 games over six sets.

Neither player moved up. I think the 3.0 didn't move up because she was only beating up on 5.5 doubles teams. I was surprised that the 2.5 didn't move up, though.

On the other hand, I had a 3.0 self-rated player who played two doubles matches this spring at 3.0 (lost them both) and who played two doubles matches at 3.5 (won one, lost one at No. 3 position). She moved up to 3.5, despite being 1-3 on the year.

This suggests to me that the best way to move up is to play up.

Combo seasons are local leagues. There is no Nationals. So combo wins and loses don't count in their NTRP ratings. Doesn't the 2.5 still have a self rating?

The best way to move up is to play up and win. If you play up and get creamed it doesn't help you, and in some cases may hurt you. I've seen people who went undefeated at their own level, lost all their matches in their playing up level and didn't get bumped. Their partner, however, who did not play up did get bumped.

Cindysphinx
12-01-2006, 01:26 PM
Cak, you're right! That explains why my good 2.5 didn't bump up to 3.0. She hasn't played any on-level matches, just combo.

raiden031
12-20-2006, 09:44 AM
Self-Rated players start out at the extreme high end of the range. They don't have to have very much success to get bumped up. Computer-Rated players, on the other hand, often need quite a bit of success to get bumped up.

So if someone self-rated at 3.5, from the computer's point of view, would they start at like 3.4?

precplac
12-20-2006, 10:02 AM
The dynamic rating is an average of your computer rating before a match and the rating that you received as a result of the match with much heavier weighting being given to your rating before the match. If someone is self rated, they do not have a computer rating before their first match. After their first match their computer rating is what they got in that match. After their second match, their match rating is averaged into their computer rating.

oldguysrule
12-20-2006, 10:18 AM
The dynamic rating is an average of your computer rating before a match and the rating that you received as a result of the match with much heavier weighting being given to your rating before the match. If someone is self rated, they do not have a computer rating before their first match. After their first match their computer rating is what they got in that match. After their second match, their match rating is averaged into their computer rating.

Actually, a self-rated player does not have a dynamic NTRP until he has played 4 matches against other computer rated players. Once that happens, the computer calculates a dynamic NTRP for him/her and the system treats the player just like any other computer rated player.

Local pros do not have a say as to the rating that the computer gives you, regardless of any conspiracy theories you might believe. Even when you appeal a rating, there is really not any wiggle room. It is based on whether your dynamic rating is within .05 of the lower level...or .10 for seniors. This does not include appeals because of errors in the scores or medical reasons.

I believe the dynamic NTRP is working pretty well. The computer does a pretty good job of sorting everything out. The potential for (and reality of) abuse still exists for self-raters. That is another issue though.

sue20852
02-09-2007, 04:50 AM
The best way to move up is to play up and win. ...


That would be the normal expectation. I know of a first time (self rate) player who played up, lost all matches badly, and moved up!!
Can anyone explain how this is possible? Thanks.

Sue

Orion
02-09-2007, 05:44 AM
What level did they self rate at?? If they self rated at 2.5 and had 3.5 strokes / technique but just lost that may have played a factor. I've heard of players moving up after the USTA (spies / evaluators, forgot the true name) come and watch a few matches and see they have strokes and technique above the level their playing on.

tennis-n-sc
02-09-2007, 05:45 AM
That would be the normal expectation. I know of a first time (self rate) player who played up, lost all matches badly, and moved up!!
Can anyone explain how this is possible? Thanks.

Sue

Sue, if the loses were competitive to higher rated players, then the system recognizes that the player competes at that level.

raiden031
02-09-2007, 05:51 AM
What level did they self rate at?? If they self rated at 2.5 and had 3.5 strokes / technique but just lost that may have played a factor. I've heard of players moving up after the USTA (spies / evaluators, forgot the true name) come and watch a few matches and see they have strokes and technique above the level their playing on.

It doesn't matter what their strokes look like, its only their results that matter. I believe they sometimes have evaluators observing match results of playoff matches to make sure the computer doesn't overlook sandbagging, but not visually watching a match.

JHBKLYN
02-09-2007, 05:54 PM
It doesn't matter what their strokes look like, its only their results that matter. I believe they sometimes have evaluators observing match results of playoff matches to make sure the computer doesn't overlook sandbagging, but not visually watching a match.

How true it is. Looking pretty doesn't move you up. You can have Federer strokes and beat someone 6-4, 6-4, or have awkward strokes and beat someone 6-0, 6-0, Mr. Awkward will move up.

Orion
02-09-2007, 09:46 PM
It doesn't matter what their strokes look like, its only their results that matter. I believe they sometimes have evaluators observing match results of playoff matches to make sure the computer doesn't overlook sandbagging, but not visually watching a match.

I agree results matter to the computer, but I know first hand that evaluators come and watch matches, especially during playoffs and Nationals. All it takes is for someone to report a player. I know someone who was friends with a league coordinator who gave him the heads up when evaluators were coming and he would tone his play down (purposely double faulting, netting groundstrokes, etc.) In spite of winning he was still not moved up.

sue20852
02-10-2007, 08:41 AM
Sue, if the loses were competitive to higher rated players, then the system recognizes that the player competes at that level.

On the contrary, the loses were lobsides: 6-2,6-1 or worse. I think the player played 3 or 4 matches at 3.5 level.

I would think the results would push down the rating. Can the code of the computer algorithm be buggy??

Sue

kylebarendrick
02-10-2007, 10:15 PM
It easily could be buggy, but even losses like those to people at the high end of a rating can get a self-rated player moved up.