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Japan Tennis
12-03-2006, 06:19 AM
hey

Is the fact that the longer the racquet the harder on your elbow true?

Thanks

Japan Tennis

mctennis
12-03-2006, 06:30 AM
Yes, I've found it is harder on the bodyparts the more extended it is. The racquet may be lighter to TRY and compensate for the length but then you end up trying to hit it harder for power. Some extened racquets are 1/4 to 1/2 inch longer which usually aren't so bad. there for a while they were more than 1 + inches longer that was an injury waiting to happen. IMHO.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 06:34 AM
I want them to all the rackets 1/2 inch longer.

jonolau
12-03-2006, 06:38 AM
I found more problems with my shoulder especially on serves with an extra length racquet.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 06:40 AM
I found more problems with my shoulder especially on serves with an extra length racquet.

Yea but what does it matter if you serve 9-10 more service winners with 1/2 inch longer racket:D per match than with standard length ??

Japan Tennis
12-03-2006, 06:41 AM
why is it harder on your body when the racquet is longer

jonolau
12-03-2006, 06:44 AM
In simple physics terms, a longer racquet length equals to a longer lever, therefore requiring more force to generate the same racquet head speed.

For anyone here who is proficient in physics, please correct me if I'm wrong.

jonolau
12-03-2006, 06:47 AM
Yea but what does it matter if you serve 3-5 more service winnerswith 1/2 inch longer racket:D per match than with standard length ??
You are like a village fool ...

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 06:50 AM
You are like a village fool ...

I am just stating the truth, when i play, i definitely get 9-10 more service winners per match than with standard length racket :D ones, and there are plenty of 1/2 inch longer rackets that does Not cause arm problems.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 06:54 AM
In simple physics terms, a longer racquet length equals to a longer lever, therefore requiring more force to generate the same racquet head speed.

For anyone here who is proficient in physics, please correct me if I'm wrong.

In some elementary level it is true, but Mfr will make longer rackets lighter in general, to bring down the swingweight. If you notice most of the longer rackets are under 11 oz. So if you bring down the swingweight, then less force is needed to swing the racket. So if a extra long racket has very good vibration dampning, it will not cause arm problems, i assure you of that.:D

jonolau
12-03-2006, 06:54 AM
I am just stating the truth, when i play, i definitely get 9-10 more service winners per match than with standard length racket :D ones, and there are plenty of 1/2 inch longer rackets that does Not cause arm problems.

Look buddy, in your original post you stated that you get 3-5 more service winners. Now you change it to 9-10 more service winners.

You are truly a fool so don't try and change the facts to suit your argument.

You have no credibility at all.

anirut
12-03-2006, 06:56 AM
RBF, remember that one man's meat is another man's poison.

YOU may like XL sticks and that does not mean everybody must live your rule. I, for one, have had problems with XL rackets. SO I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AN XL RACKET!

And it's good that manufacturers are not making all the rackets XL. For, if they do it, they'll all go broke because it might turn out that they'll have only one customer.

jonolau
12-03-2006, 06:57 AM
RBF, remember that one man's meat is another man's poison.

YOU may like XL sticks and that does not mean everybody must live your rule. I, for one, have had problems with XL rackets. SO I DO NOT WANT TO PLAY AN XL RACKET!

And it's good that manufacturers are not making all the rackets XL. For, if they do it, they'll all go broke because it might turn out that they'll have only one customer.

Well said, Anirut! :D

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 07:03 AM
hey

Is the fact that the longer the racquet the harder on your elbow true?

Thanks

Japan Tennis

In simple Physics, just because racket is extra long, it does not mean it will cause arm problems. Like i said before, most X-long rackets come with lighter weight, which means lighter SWINGWEIGHT, very important. X-long gives you more leverage so you can hit the ball harder by generating more force in the racket head. Manufacturers will decrease the static weight of the racket so it does not increase the swingweight but by making the X-long, you just end up generating more force due to more leverage. So in the end, what matters is vibration dampning capability of the racket that matters..:D

haerdalis
12-03-2006, 07:20 AM
Same swingweight perhaps but a longer lever meaning greater torque on the arm at impact. Not all hits are in the sweetspot and that is often more true with longer racquets.
That being said I like them too, but only on serve and forehand so I try to choke down on the grip with the backhand. This is good in theory atleast, giving me a shorter more headlight racquet for backhand.

federermcenroeagassi
12-03-2006, 08:18 AM
interesting how wilson kfactor raquets r including a 27.5 inch...

Japan Tennis
12-03-2006, 01:47 PM
can someone set this straight

i didn't know kfactor racquets were 28 in....

OrangeOne
12-03-2006, 02:14 PM
Same swingweight perhaps but a longer lever meaning greater torque on the arm at impact.

I would think this is correct.

In simple Physics, just because racket is extra long, it does not mean it will cause arm problems. Like i said before, most X-long rackets come with lighter weight, which means lighter SWINGWEIGHT, very important. X-long gives you more leverage so you can hit the ball harder by generating more force in the racket head. Manufacturers will decrease the static weight of the racket so it does not increase the swingweight but by making the X-long, you just end up generating more force due to more leverage. So in the end, what matters is vibration dampning capability of the racket that matters..:D

That paragraph is the most confused piece of BS.

a. lower swingweight does not always mean 'better for elbows', it can mean the reverse (as a less stable platform will often vibrate more!)
b. you're saying you are generating more force due to more leverage? correct. Proportionally, more force = more injury potential.

RBF, remember that one man's meat is another man's poison.

If he was capable of this, at all, then he wouldn't troll around posting "RAFA this and RAFA that" in every second thread.

You are like a village fool ...

Please don't insult village fools.

Japan Tennis
12-03-2006, 02:24 PM
so longer racquet equals hurt person.

despite proper technique

dl125
12-03-2006, 04:28 PM
I sold a Yonex NSRQ-7 because of the extended length. I really liked it too...on serves it rocked, but after a long day my wrist, elbow, whole arm just hurt.

Redflea
12-03-2006, 05:18 PM
My son (13) has used a LM Fire for about two years or so...27.3" long, so a short long-body. :) 102 head, 10.5 oz.

He's had zero arm issues w/it, and can make magic w/it at the net or from the baseline. He's a bit small for his age, and thin, so the extra length probably helps a bit w/his getting more pace on the ball.

Just one data point, and he benefits from two important factors:

1. He's young
2. He's got excellent form...he's been well taught and has a very natural talent for the game that you can see from three courts away, very fluid.

He has hit w/a other racquets since getting it and still prefers the Fire. Overall, however, I don't like extended length racquets for the reasons noted above...we got the LM Fire on an extended demo before purchasing it, to be sure that it would be OK.

bagung
12-03-2006, 07:11 PM
I sold a Yonex NSRQ-7 because of the extended length. I really liked it too...on serves it rocked, but after a long day my wrist, elbow, whole arm just hurt.

i cannot agree more........... i got my TE after switching to yonex nsrq-7..

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 07:35 PM
I would think this is correct.



That paragraph is the most confused piece of BS.

a. lower swingweight does not always mean 'better for elbows', it can mean the reverse (as a less stable platform will often vibrate more!)
b. you're saying you are generating more force due to more leverage? correct. Proportionally, more force = more injury potential.



If he was capable of this, at all, then he wouldn't troll around posting "RAFA this and RAFA that" in every second thread.



Please don't insult village fools.


I can clearly see that you did not major in physics. I said overall manufacturers try to end up with same or similar swingweight as the standard length rackets by making the overall weight lighter or making the racket more head light. All these mindless arguments for extra long rackets causing problem cause you are trying to swing harder cause racket is lighter or more lev more force more arm problems is BUNCH OF NONSENSE. What is important is #1 vibration dampening potential, #2 X-long and Standard length rackets have same or similar swingweight, #3 more leverage does not mean more force cause if you make the swingweight same then force of impact on the ball will be same as standard racket. ONly difference is extra-long make it little more difficult to volley balls hit right at you cause it takes longer to put the racket into position. I hate it when people pretend to understand physics when they don't. :D

bcsax123
12-03-2006, 07:46 PM
I can clearly see that you did not major in physics. I said overall manufacturers try to end up with same or similar swingweight as the standard length rackets by making the overall weight lighter or making the racket more head light. All these mindless arguments for extra long rackets causing problem cause you are trying to swing harder cause racket is lighter or more lev more force more arm problems is BUNCH OF NONSENSE. What is important is #1 vibration dampening potential, #2 X-long and Standard length rackets have same or similar swingweight, #3 more leverage does not mean more force cause if you make the swingweight same then force of impact on the ball will be same as standard racket. ONly difference is extra-long make it little more difficult to volley balls hit right at you cause it takes longer to put the racket into position. I hate it when people pretend to understand physics when they don't. :D

Oh so now you say extended length isn't as good as standard length? LOL

anirut
12-03-2006, 07:48 PM
In this case of hitting tennis balls, should we use the term "force" or the term "energy" or "impact" or "momentum"?

Just wondering which term "could" be the most correct usage in this context.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 07:52 PM
In this case of hitting tennis balls, should we use the term "force" or the term "energy" or "impact" or "momentum"?

Just wondering which term "could" be the most correct usage in this context.

Momentum and Force would be best appropriate. I know that extra-long has its faults and it is not perfect, but it does give you advantage in serving and 1/2 inch extra does not hurt you great deal in other areas like volleying or groundstroke control, just watch Ivan Lubicic. And it definitely is Not a contributing factor in causing arm problems...:D

anirut
12-03-2006, 07:56 PM
My issue with XL is that I feel "awkward" playing it.

And RBF, if you really need to XL your racket, you can do it easy. A half-inch won't hurt the balance "much". You counter that with a tad of lead. I've done it since the days of wood (turning a JR into a standard 27") to the days of graphite. Takes just bit of craftsmanship and that's it.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 08:01 PM
My issue with XL is that I feel "awkward" playing it.

And RBF, if you really need to XL your racket, you can do it easy. A half-inch won't hurt the balance "much". You counter that with a tad of lead. I've done it since the days of wood (turning a JR into a standard 27") to the days of graphite. Takes just bit of craftsmanship and that's it.

Like adding piece of wood to the end or something ?
And does Nalbandian do the same thing to his RDS001, it is definitely extralong and someone said he customizes it by asking Yonex to cut it longer. And What is that Rolando version ? IS that some kind of special racket wilson makes ?????????/:D

anirut
12-03-2006, 08:05 PM
Like adding piece of wood to the end or something ?
And does Nalbandian do the same thing to his RDS001, it is definitely extralong and someone said he customizes it by asking Yonex to cut it longer. And What is that Rolando version ? IS that some kind of special racket wilson makes ?????????/:D

Rolando? I don't know this, sorry. What's "he".

Yeah, the wooden Jr. was adding a piece of wood. The graphite was trickier, much trickier. This also depends on the racket design. This has to be worked out case-by-case (or rather model-by-model).

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 08:07 PM
:D Rolando? I don't know this, sorry. What's "he".

Yeah, the wooden Jr. was adding a piece of wood. The graphite was trickier, much trickier. This also depends on the racket design. This has to be worked out case-by-case (or rather model-by-model).

Redondo Edition in the Avatar, is that a Wilson racket? I have never seen it before..........

bcsax123
12-03-2006, 08:14 PM
Momentum and Force would be best appropriate. I know that extra-long has its faults and it is not perfect, but it does give you advantage in serving and 1/2 inch extra does not hurt you great deal in other areas like volleying or groundstroke control, just watch Ivan Lubicic. And it definitely is Not a contributing factor in causing arm problems...:D



You say that a standard length racquets and XL racquets with equal SW will have the same "force" when hitting, yet you say XL is better on serves. Wouldn't the speed of the serve be the same given the same amount of force? So the only advantage with serving is that you have a bit more reach, therefore more energy is forced down, allowing for a more powerful serve. The problem with this is that with any length you would be maxing out your swing speed on your serve anyways. So i guess XL makes it easier to hit the serve in, but not increase speed.

I think that XL vs standard length is just a preference, some people like XL, but most are used to standard.

anirut
12-03-2006, 08:14 PM
:D

Redondo Edition in the Avatar, is that a Wilson racket? I have never seen it before..........

ARE YOU KIDDING! NEVER SEEN/HEARD OF A REDONDO?

OK, it's the ProKennex Type C Redondo Edition (that's the official name). Just check out the thread in my sig as well as TW main site. It's a beautiful, low-cost, old-school-playing racket.

There are talks about the Redondo all over the place too.

BTW, force (ma) and momentum (mv) are quite different. ma != mv.

ChicagoJack
12-03-2006, 08:16 PM
My son (13) has used a LM Fire for about two years or so...27.3" long, so a short long-body. :) 102 head, 10.5 oz.

He's had zero arm issues w/it, and can make magic w/it at the net or from the baseline. He's a bit small for his age, and thin, so the extra length probably helps a bit w/his getting more pace on the ball. Just one data point, and he benefits from two important factors:

1. He's young
2. He's got excellent form...he's been well taught and has a very natural talent for the game that you can see from three courts away, very fluid.

He has hit w/a other racquets since getting it and still prefers the Fire. Overall, however, I don't like extended length racquets for the reasons noted above...we got the LM Fire on an extended demo before purchasing it, to be sure that it would be OK.

Hi Red Flea, ;)

1. Ditto that stuff regarding the LM Fire frame specifically, and extended lenght frames in general. I'm not foolish enough to attempt to answer the OPs original question, with the itention of stating what is "true" or not. But I'm perfectly willing to give personal testimony of my own experience on the matter.

2. Add one more vote to the "ok by me" category with the LM Fire. I've got mine modified all the way up to 27.75 from the stock 27.375. I've been playing tennis off and onn since 1969 and never once experienced any sort of arm pain with any frame. I did have a brief battle with shoulder pain at the tail end of my two year use with kevlar string in a standard length frame. The shoulder pain stopped almost immeadiately after switching string.

3. I never demoed an extended length frame, because I bought into all the negative comments and myth. It has really helped my doubles game this season. I've not lost a match all year, and have only lost serve twice that I can recall. My serve has more spin, pace and accuracy. My main weapon used to be well placed and high kicks about head height, out wide on both sides, but my new meat and potatoes serve is a high bouncing, and fairly fast slice to the BH or body. Even if the opponent makes clean contact, the result is often a well struck ball sailing way way wide off the court . I'm a lefty and am using the left to right movement of the ball much much better. At the 4.5-5.0 level, most, but not all returners are less bothered by pace and height than they are the left to right motion of a lefty serve, and the adjustment that must be made with lefty spin on the racquet face at impact.

4. In a nutshell, the extended length frame gave me a big weapon I can lean on to help me hold serve. A serve that is about 70% of my flat serve in terms of pace - about 70% of my kicker height - and moving left to right with lots of spin.

-Jack

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 08:17 PM
ARE YOU KIDDING! NEVER SEEN/HEARD OF A REDONDO?

OK, it's the ProKennex Type C Redondo Edition (that's the official name). Just check out the thread in my sig as well as TW main site. It's a beautiful, low-cost, old-school-playing racket.

There are talks about the Redondo all over the place too.

So i assume it is a good racket, Pro-kennnex has not been very popular, not too many people use it and virtually no pros use it. I think when they added that sand like material, people did not like that stuff rolling around inside the racket, just felt too strange. Although that tech is supposed to help your shots and game......;)

anirut
12-03-2006, 08:22 PM
So i assume it is a good racket, Pro-kennnex has not been very popular, not too many people use it and virtually no pros use it. I think when they added that sand like material, people did not like that stuff rolling around inside the racket, just felt too strange. Although that tech is supposed to help your shots and game......;)

PK rackets are good and it's not much known unless you're really deep into tennis or a real old-timer. PK manufactures for many big names too, I suppose.

And the Kinetic series (yes, the sand you're talking about) are very arm friendly. This has been scientifically proven.

And if you like XL racket and wish that it's also arm-friendly, try the PK7G.

Swinging Simian
12-03-2006, 08:39 PM
Personally, I've never had a problem with long rackets and until This year played with a Prince Extender Ripstick 800 which was 29" long. I finally switched to much newer frames The flexpoint fire because the head of my last ripstick finally warped. I confess that I actually do miss that ripstick. I had much better Flat and faster serve with that racket. The Fire however has improved my over all technique (though I did find it necessary to lead it up to 11oz). So here's another endorsement for longer rackets.

Rafa's best friend
12-03-2006, 09:04 PM
PK rackets are good and it's not much known unless you're really deep into tennis or a real old-timer. PK manufactures for many big names too, I suppose.

And the Kinetic series (yes, the sand you're talking about) are very arm friendly. This has been scientifically proven.

And if you like XL racket and wish that it's also arm-friendly, try the PK7G.

I will try it, thanks:D

anirut
12-03-2006, 09:13 PM
I will try it, thanks:D

You're welcome, mate!

haerdalis
12-03-2006, 11:06 PM
I can clearly see that you did not major in physics. I said overall manufacturers try to end up with same or similar swingweight as the standard length rackets by making the overall weight lighter or making the racket more head light. All these mindless arguments for extra long rackets causing problem cause you are trying to swing harder cause racket is lighter or more lev more force more arm problems is BUNCH OF NONSENSE. What is important is #1 vibration dampening potential, #2 X-long and Standard length rackets have same or similar swingweight, #3 more leverage does not mean more force cause if you make the swingweight same then force of impact on the ball will be same as standard racket. ONly difference is extra-long make it little more difficult to volley balls hit right at you cause it takes longer to put the racket into position. I hate it when people pretend to understand physics when they don't. :D

Hehe I am sorry but dont post stuff like this when you dont know much about it please. So it is lighter and have the same swingweight yet it is not as manouverable at the net?
A longer lever means greater torque, this is really basic physics stuff. Pretty basic tennis stuff is that a longer lever also equals less hits in sweetspot which also is bad for the arm and for your tennis.
Anyway the concept is good and 27.5 is a good middleground and since todays racquets have a larger head it makes sense to make them a little longer than previous generations of racquets.
And do try the 7g. Great racquet.

Japan Tennis
12-04-2006, 06:02 AM
Hey

Can you give me a review of ur experiences with a 29 in frame? compare it with your current frame. (please include weight and sw of racquet)

Thanks

Japan Tennis

Rafa's best friend
12-04-2006, 06:24 AM
Hey

Can you give me a review of ur experiences with a 29 in frame? compare it with your current frame. (please include weight and sw of racquet)

Thanks

Japan Tennis

29 inchers like those Prince Ripstick is pretty hard to handle and control, because it is so much longer it takes more time to get around which means it takes more time to get the racket head into correct contact position with the ball, So ultimately it is harder to control. Still it will feel great on the serve though, I don't know of any pros that use 29inchers, I do know that Olivier Rochus uses 28 inch customized Prince Triple threat graphite. And he claims that it helps him play better. I think he has the best groundies in the world, definitely top 5 for sure...........:D

Japan Tennis
12-04-2006, 06:52 AM
If i increase a racquet from 28-29 in how will its swing weight change?

Can someone tell me what will change with the Prince Diablo XP Oversized. So the question for that is what will the specs for the Prince Diablo xp Oversize be if i increase it to 29 in, what in the weight, sw, HL will change.

And what are the specs for a vantage racquet before i cusomize it to 29 in if when it is 29 inch i want the specs: 13 oz/10 points HL. So my quesion for that is what are the specs i should set for my vantage so that after cusomization to 29 in it has the specs of 13 oz/ 10 pts HL/ SW: 350

Thanks

Japan Tennis

PS: The website for the proshop is going to change my length has details of the proccess here : http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.eddy.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dtennis%2Beddy%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rlz %3D1B2GGGL_enUS177
And go to tune up at the top right of the page

ionutzakis
12-04-2006, 07:00 AM
I play with POG LB and I don't have any shoulder, elbow, wrist problems.

alu16L
12-04-2006, 09:02 AM
The real elbow killers are - poor technique, dead strings, miss-hits, and dead tennis balls.

haerdalis
12-04-2006, 09:04 AM
Yeah those non pressurized tennis balls are extremely bad for the elbow and shoulder.

Steve Huff
12-04-2006, 05:28 PM
Jonlau was correct when he compared the racket to a lever. But, it's not only swinging the added length that hurts your arm, it's when you contact the ball. The ball, even though it doesn't weigh much, has more leverage on you arm. And, a ball does weigh enough to apply a force to the lever. If you don't believe this, try standing in front of a ball machine sometime. See if the ball has any force. And more force will be applied to your arm by ball contact on a longer racket even if swingweights are equal. Leverage is obtained by length. You may be strong enough to handle the increased force applied to your arm, and you may never feel the effects of that increased force, but it is still there.

StunLock
12-04-2006, 05:55 PM
Please don't insult village fools.

LOL !!1

Rafa's best friend
12-04-2006, 06:09 PM
LOL !!1

Who are the village Fools ?/ Is that like YMCA singers??:D

anirut
12-04-2006, 06:11 PM
Who are the village Fools ?/ Is that like YMCA singers??:D

Those are queers!

Rafa's best friend
12-04-2006, 06:14 PM
Those are queers!

You mean like the Fed trolls in this forum are queers ??/?? sheeshh, we don't want to make them mad...:confused:

StunLock
12-04-2006, 06:25 PM
yea, cuz they already got wtfpwnd badly : D

anirut
12-04-2006, 06:27 PM
You mean like the Fed trolls in this forum are queers ??/?? sheeshh, we don't want to make them mad...:confused:

No, I mean the YMCA singers ... the way they dress ...

bcsax123
12-04-2006, 07:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafa's best friend
Yea but what does it matter if you serve 3-5 more service winnerswith 1/2 inch longer racket per match than with standard length ??

You are like a village fool ...


I believe the village fool is RBF.

Japan Tennis
12-05-2006, 02:06 AM
Hey

Can someone set this straight....possibly someone with physics background, like travelerjam

Thanks

haerdalis
12-05-2006, 04:28 AM
I can tell you with 100 % accuracy that a longer racquet means more strain on the arm. That is to say longer but with everything else being equal. It is not like half an inch will kill your elbow but it will put some more strain on the body.
So my advice is that if you do want a longer racquet and have had arm issues than dont go for the stiffest one you can find and don tstring it with kevlar etc.
Pk 7g for instance is very comfortable and hardly bad for the elbow even at 27.5 inches.

Japan Tennis
12-05-2006, 05:52 AM
but doesn't a longer racquet mean its better for your arm because for the same energy the force is spread out over a distance reducing the amount of force that reaches your arm.

haerdalis
12-05-2006, 06:49 AM
An example, which is heavier to lift:
20 kg close to your body or 20 kg with arms fully extended.
The longer the distance from the body the force is applied the more torque.
Of course if you play smoothly with a long racquet and jerky with a standard racquet than perhaps a longer racquet is better but that is a different story.

Steve Huff
12-05-2006, 12:52 PM
Japan Tennis---I don't think that's quite how physics works. Granted, 1/2" doesn't seem like much, and if you've built up your strength, it may never, ever hurt your arm. But even a nice, flexible 7g applies more force to your arm than say a 5g. This is irregardless of flex. Flex helps dampen the shock on contact. A flexible racket will dampen the shock more than a stiff racket. Think of jumping off a 10' ladder onto a slab of concrete and onto a mattress. The mattress flexes more and absorbs more shock. What do you lose? You lose power. The stiffer racket will transmit more force to the ball also. Of course, there are other factors such as mass, head size, swing speed, etc, all of which add force. You might ask, "then why isn't a heavier racket harder on the arm?" Well, it helps keep the ball from applying shock to your arm by making it harder for the ball to deflect it from it's path. It DOES take more energy to swing a heavy racket. And, if you have poor strokes and try to stop the racket swing as soon as it hits the ball (not following through), I guarantee a heavy racket will hurt your arm more than a light racket. It takes more force to stop the swing. These considerations are what makes certain rackets better for certain swings in tennis.

Japan Tennis
12-05-2006, 02:25 PM
WHat specs should i request for a 28 in vantage if after i increase it to 29 in i want it to be
12oz/ 10 pts HL/ SW: 350