jimmy connors is the greatest returner ever!!!!!!

[The Gorilla]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC-pMS0bOs
He makes agaasi and blake look like roddick.

[bluegrasser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC-pMS0bOs
He makes agaasi and blake look like roddick.

..a little extreme, but I agree that Conners was the best cosidering the racquet he used and the way he literally threw his body at the ball.

[snapple]

think Connors was the best at actually getting huge serves back in play allowing him to stay in point...as far as hitting returns back for outright winners, I'd have to give the nod to Agassi.

[The Gorilla]

think Connors was the best at actually getting huge serves back in play allowing him to stay in point...as far as hitting returns back for outright winners, I'd have to give the nod to Agassi.

..a little extreme, but I agree that Conners was the best cosidering the racquet he used and the way he literally threw his body at the ball.

did yiz see those first 2 returns on the video?

[bluegrasser]

Yes I did, Connors has/had the best return, even over AA IMO.

[drakulie]

Considering Agassi played against bigger servers (including arguably the best ever), and returned the serve from the same position, if not closer than Connors--Agassi hands down.

And yes, Connors was also an incredible returner.

[The Gorilla]

Considering Agassi played against bigger servers (including arguably the best ever), and returned the serve from the same position, if not closer than Connors--Agassi hands down.

And yes, Connors was also an incredible returner.

didn't return sampras's serve so good did he?Connors returned te 80's equivilants though.

[drakulie]

didn't return sampras's serve so good did he?

???????? You apparently don't know about their history against one another. Agassi defeated Sampras 14 times in his career. So yes, I would say he was able over the course of their careers to return well against him.

Connors returned te 80's equivilants though.

No, he didn't. Other than Sampras himself, there was nobody Connors played who had the equivalent of Sampras' serve. By the way, Jimbo never beat Sampras (0-2)

[tennismike33]

I agree that AA returned against some big servers, but take a look at who JC returned against. Roscoe Tanner made Roddick look like a Junior serving, that is with the rackets that they were using. Many of the servers in the JC era moved the ball around the box more, plus there were a lot more of the serve and volley type servers in that generation. JC's return is a shot envied by many and feared by most who faced him. Look back on some of his matches and the SV boys stayed back a little more and attacked off the 2nd or 3rd ball in the rally. There are many factors but rallies today are few and far between, unless you keep hitting to Roddick's BH, he will rally with you all day.

[superman1]

Nice vid, but

1. The second serve that McEnroe threw at him was a floater. Even on his first serve, McEnroe could never get up to 120 mph until he started using modern racquets.
2. You could dig up hundreds of clips of Agassi hitting clean winners off of serves. He has hit winners off of Roddick's 140 mph+ serves.

John McEnroe himself has said that Agassi was the best returner ever, followed closely by Connors.

[drakulie]

Roscoe Tanner made Roddick look like a Junior serving,

?? Junior?? Dude, you need to seriously get real. If anything it is the other way around.

On one hand you have Connors standing a little behind the baseline returning against 110?? mph serves.

On the other you have Agassi standing ON the baseline retruning 130+ MPH serves. HMMMM???

I take Agassi's return any day. By the way AA also played some seriously good serve and volleyers. Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Rafter, Krajicek, etc.

[tennismike33]

?? Junior?? Dude, you need to seriously get real. If anything it is the other way around.

On one hand you have Connors standing a little behind the baseline returning against 110?? mph serves.

On the other you have Agassi standing ON the baseline retruning 130+ MPH serves. HMMMM???

I take Agassi's return any day. By the way AA also played some seriously good serve and volleyers. Sampras, Becker, Edberg, Rafter, Krajicek, etc.

DUDE, lighten up on me, Tanner for his time and the racket technology 30 years ago, serving 110-120 was HUGE.

[The Gorilla]

???????? You apparently don't know about their history against one another. Agassi defeated Sampras 14 times in his career. So yes, I would say he was able over the course of their careers to return well against him.



No, he didn't. Other than Sampras himself, there was nobody Connors played who had the equivalent of Sampras' serve. By the way, Jimbo never beat Sampras (0-2)
(deeeeeeeeep breath)Agassi defeated sampras when he was playing crap,never ever did he beat him when he was on,outside of the australian open.
No,connors never beat sampras,but he was 40 so you are just exposing your own ignorance there.I think jmac had the equivelant of sampras's serve seeing as he:was hitting the ball at 130mph consistently in '92,had an unreadable serve,if you look at the video you can see connors had no read on his serve and had to wait until the ball was struck to move.

[The Gorilla]

Nice vid, but

1. The second serve that McEnroe threw at him was a floater. Even on his first serve, McEnroe could never get up to 120 mph until he started using modern racquets.
2. You could dig up hundreds of clips of Agassi hitting clean winners off of serves. He has hit winners off of Roddick's 140 mph+ serves.

John McEnroe himself has said that Agassi was the best returner ever, followed closely by Connors.
1.Connors had to return a 115mph with a racquet that had a sweet spot the size of a peanut.Never mind the fact that they're playing with graphite racquets in that video.
2.Roddicks serve is inferior to jmacs,it has righty spin and is readable,giving agassi precious time to react,they and is generally not that fast,125-130,although he does hit belters too,they've slowed up the grounds giving you more time to react.

jmac is an a$$hole,he didn't put connors or lendl in his top 5 players ever,although he put himself and andre,(4 of my slams won in australia on incredibly slow rebound when nobody cared)agassi in there,despite his not being anywhere near as successful as the other 2,who were able to beat jmac.He hated connors,plus he's a media wh*re,he's always saying that this player and that player is the best ever at something,you have to take everything he says with a pinch of salt.

[Sagittar]

i never saw him play though judging this video he is one hell of a returner maybe close to my return king (agassi)

[drakulie]

DUDE, lighten up on me, Tanner for his time and the racket technology 30 years ago, serving 110-120 was HUGE.

I agree, but to say Roddick's serve is a "junior" compared to Tanners?

[The Gorilla]

incidently,wasn't jmac an a$$hole after hitting that passing shot 2min in?

[drakulie]

(deeeeeeeeep breath)Agassi defeated sampras when he was playing crap,never ever did he beat him when he was on,outside of the australian open.

Possibly one of the dumber statements I have ever read. Between 1993 and 1998 while Sampras was the undisputed # 1 player in the world Agassi beat him 6 timess. Including wins at Paris, AO Finals, Key Biscayne Finals, Montreal Finals, San Jose Finals, and Toronto.

PS: You could now let out that deep breath.

No,connors never beat sampras,but he was 40 so you are just exposing your own ignorance there.

The only reason I brought this up, is because of the following idiodic remark you made earlier:
"didn't return sampras's serve so good did he?Connors returned te 80's equivilants though."

I think jmac had the equivelant of sampras's serve seeing as he:was hitting the ball at 130mph consistently in '92,had an unreadable serve,if you look at the video you can see connors had no read on his serve and had to wait until the ball was struck to move.

LMFAO! McEnore? 130 MPH serve?? LOL.

[civic]

Connors' forehand was weaker than his backhand. Agassi was strong on both sides. I think Agassi had better control over his forehand returns than Connors.

[superman1]

The Gorilla, you know nothing about this subject (tennis). It is obviously not worth it to argue with you. Stick to playing tennis video games.

[The Gorilla]

Possibly one of the dumber statements I have ever read. Between 1993 and 1998 while Sampras was the undisputed # 1 player in the world Agassi beat him 6 timess. Including wins at Paris, AO Finals, Key Biscayne Finals, Montreal Finals, San Jose Finals, and Toronto.
sampras beat agassi 10 times during that period.
[QUOTE=drakulie;1125007]PS: You could now let out that deep breath.
not so sure about that.


The only reason I brought this up, is because of the following idiodic remark you made earlier:
"didn't return sampras's serve so good did he?Connors returned te 80's equivilants though."
I still don't understand why that was relevant,I don't think you watch tennis,you just look up head to heads on atp tennis.com.Connors did return the 80's equivelants with a racqet that had a tiny hitting area.


LMFAO! McEnore? 130 MPH serve?? LOL.
he did,I can' be ar$ed to lok through all the youtube videos but I saw this in '92,I also saw it last year at wimbledon when he played goran in an exhibition,don't know if you got it in the states it was on bbc.I'm sure other people who were watching tennis in '92 saw it too.so as far as that goes,you're just factually wrong.

[The Gorilla]

The Gorilla, you know nothing about this subject (tennis). It is obviously not worth it to argue with you. Stick to playing tennis video games.

typical patronising remark from a passing troll.

[Duzza]

All that tennis is awesome. I think his returns were really good and extremely explosive. Good find Gorilla!

[The Gorilla]

All that tennis is awesome. I think his returns were really good and extremely explosive. Good find Gorilla!

thanks duzza

[lenbo01]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC-pMS0bOs
He makes agaasi and blake look like roddick.

in the future try getting video of a match that connors actually won. if his return was so great why didn't he win this match?

[The Gorilla]

in the future try getting video of a match that connors actually won. if his return was so great why didn't he win this match?

because his serve was so bad,and overall his game was not as complete as mcenroe's,similar to blakes losses to federer or agassi's to sampras,smartar$e.

[drakulie]

he did,I can' be ar$ed to lok through all the youtube videos but I saw this in '92,I also saw it last year at wimbledon when he played goran in an exhibition,don't know if you got it in the states it was on bbc.I'm sure other people who were watching tennis in '92 saw it too.so as far as that goes,you're just factually wrong.

LOL. You still believe McEnroe was hitting 130 mph serves in his prime?? LOL

[bluegrasser]

DUDE, lighten up on me, Tanner for his time and the racket technology 30 years ago, serving 110-120 was HUGE.

I agree, if he had the equipment that ARod has, he'd be right there with him, same with Connors.

[The Gorilla]

LOL. You still believe McEnroe was hitting 130 mph serves in his prime?? LOL
I KNOW he was,you are 19 and are too young to remember.

[drakulie]

I KNOW he was,you are 19 and are too young to remember.

You are not very bright. McEnroe is my all-time favorite player. I grew up idolizing him.....so I DO remember him. And he WAS NOT HITTING 130 mph serves.

130?? LOL

[The Gorilla]

You are not very bright. McEnroe is my all-time favorite player. I grew up idolizing him.....so I DO remember him. And he WAS NOT HITTING 130 mph serves.

130?? LOL

well,you were barely out of nappys before he finished up so I think you are talking crap.He served 125-130 consistently in '92,I watched it,I know what I'm talking about,he was serving 128 against goran last year in an exhibition.

[Brettolius]

Pardner, Pete Sampras wasn't even averaging 130 in '92, or ever really, and I don't think you're gonna find anybody anywhere that will say John McEnroe had a serve as big or bigger than Pete Sampras. Maybe he hit one or two last year with a juiced gun...not in '92 homeskillet.

[drakulie]

well,you were barely out of nappys before he finished up so I think you are talking crap.He served 125-130 consistently in '92,I watched it,I know what I'm talking about,he was serving 128 against goran last year in an exhibition.

Barely out of nappy's ??? You can't prove he hit 130 so you have continuously resorted to name-calling. It is you who apparaently never really saw J Mac play.

Kind of like your ridiculous "theory" earlier in this thread when you said Agassi only beat Sampras when Sampras was playing like crap. That was a funny one. LOL

Why don't you try proving your theory without insulting?

130-- LOL

[The Gorilla]

Pardner, Pete Sampras wasn't even averaging 130 in '92, or ever really, and I don't think you're gonna find anybody anywhere that will say John McEnroe had a serve as big or bigger than Pete Sampras. Maybe he hit one or two last year with a juiced gun...not in '92 homeskillet.

I didn't say he was averaging that,I said he was reaching that.His average is probably way lower,sampras's average according to anothe thread was 85mph,he reached the low 130's though.

[drakulie]

,sampras's average according to anothe thread was 85mph,he reached the low 130's though.

I know what thread you are talking about, and it was 85 mph for second serves. LOL

You obviously don't comprehend very well what you read.

here is a link you might want to look at:

http://www.advancedtennis.com/results/servemen.htm

[tennismike33]

[QUOTE=drakulie;1125007]Possibly one of the dumber statements I have ever read. Between 1993 and 1998 while Sampras was the undisputed # 1 player in the world Agassi beat him 6 timess. Including wins at Paris, AO Finals, Key Biscayne Finals, Montreal Finals, San Jose Finals, and Toronto.

ROLE THE TAPE: Agassi and Sampras at the US Open. Watch that entire match to see how good both of them were. Agassi won that match becasue of the amount of times he passed Pete and just by the sheer volume of service returns Pete had to hit back to AA.

[Mick]

You are not very bright. McEnroe is my all-time favorite player. I grew up idolizing him.....so I DO remember him. And he WAS NOT HITTING 130 mph serves.

130?? LOL

Yep. And I remember some of McEnroe's aces were slower than 100 mph. Who needs a 130 mph serve when you can ace people with placement ?

[drakulie]

Yep. And I remember some of McEnroe's aces were slower than 100 mph. Who needs a 130 mph serve when you can ace people with placement ?

yeah that guy had sick placement and spin, especially that can-opener to the ad side. I would agree he hit fairly hard for his time, as it was always being commented on, but 130??? Come on.

[Supernatural_Serve]

Agassi definately faced bigger heavier nastier servers than Conners, so comparing them isn't meaningful. They were both the best returners of their day.

But, Connors looks better returning serves because of his intensity and attacking intimidating style.

Furthermore, Conners as a returner in my opinion put more fear uncertainty and doubt in servers than Agassi ever did.

I think plenty of servers said to themselves facing Conners "his return of serve could actually beat me today"

versus

I think plenty of servers said to themselves facing Andre "he's going to rob me of some aces and serves that shouldn't come back today"

Big difference.

[The Gorilla]

yeah that guy had sick placement and spin, especially that can-opener to the ad side. I would agree he hit fairly hard for his time, as it was always being commented on, but 130??? Come on.

he DID,I just can't find any resources on the web detailing his biggest serve,had a look at the videos on youtube,not one of them looks at the speed gun,but I saw it with my own eyes,even last year when he played goran in an exhibition in queens,he hit 128 consistently,he's pushing 50.

[drakulie]

he DID,I just can't find any resources on the web detailing his biggest serve,had a look at the videos on youtube,not one of them looks at the speed gun,but I saw it with my own eyes,even last year when he played goran in an exhibition in queens,he hit 128 consistently,he's pushing 50.

LOL. You are too funny dude.

[The Gorilla]

LOL. You are too funny dude.

why's that?

[drakulie]

because of people like you who come up with crazy claims and then try to actually search for proof when there is none. remember, we are talking about when McEnroe was in his prime. HE WAS NOT HITTING 130.

[Mick]

he DID,I just can't find any resources on the web detailing his biggest serve,had a look at the videos on youtube,not one of them looks at the speed gun,but I saw it with my own eyes,even last year when he played goran in an exhibition in queens,he hit 128 consistently,he's pushing 50.


"His (McEnroe) fastest serve of the match was 119 mph"

“It’s not like I’m not playing. I’m out there playing on the Champions Tour,” McEnroe said. “I play with some pretty big hitters. Ivanisevic is on the seniors tour and the guy serves 130 (mph).”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11379808/from/RS.2/

maybe he was serving with the wind on that day because if you read his statement, he thought 130 mph serve was pretty big and that's Ivanisevic's serve, not his.

[The Gorilla]

"His (McEnroe) fastest serve of the match was 119 mph"

“It’s not like I’m not playing. I’m out there playing on the Champions Tour,” McEnroe said. “I play with some pretty big hitters. Ivanisevic is on the seniors tour and the guy serves 130 (mph).”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11379808/from/RS.2/

maybe he was serving with the wind on that day because if you read his statement, he thought 130 mph serve was pretty big and that's Ivanisevic's serve, not his.
true,but he regularly hit 125-130mph in his queens exo against ivanisevic.Anyway,I feel this thread is losing it's focus,Jimmy Connors is the greatest returner of all time,agassi couldn't hit the angles connors did in his second return.Most players look for free points off their serve,connors looked for free points off his opponents serve.

[drakulie]

nice find mick. Thanks for sharing. As you said,,,,,,"good placement" and a 107 mph ace ain't too shabby.

[The Gorilla]

because of people like you who come up with crazy claims and then try to actually search for proof when there is none. remember, we are talking about when McEnroe was in his prime. HE WAS NOT HITTING 130.
I sense the ground shifting here.We are not talking about mcenroe in his prime,we are talking about mcenroe in '92,with his lickety split band new space age racquet.

[Mick]

true,but he regularly hit 125-130mph in his queens exo against ivanisevic.Anyway,I feel this thread is losing it's focus,Jimmy Connors is the greatest returner of all time,agassi couldn't hit the angles connors did in his second return.Most players look for free points off their serve,connors looked for free points off his opponents serve.

I remember in the old days, the commentators always said Jimmy Connors was the best returner in the game. Later on somehow Agassi earned that recognition from the press.

[maxply]

I was at the us open in 1992, when MAC played Fromberg, most of his 1st serves were 99-105mph. I dont remember any over 110mph.

[Dunlopkid]

I think Agassi hit more winners, but Agassi also got aced a whole lot. Probably more than Connors. But maybe that's because the average serve speed was faster for Agassi.

[Rabbit]

Firstly, Agassi and Connors (alphabetic order) are the two greatest returners in the history of the sport. Agassi may have faced more speed, but Connors did his returning against servers who used more variety and placement than sheer power. He also did this with a racket smaller than your standard wood frame. I think both would do equally well if they were to swap eras.

Serving back in the day was as big, just not as often. Wood rackets mandated that the first serve be of higher percentage because it was riskier to hit a second serve. However, if a guy was up 40 - 0 and a big server, they could uncap some in the 120s. Remember that in the days of wood, professional tennis matches were won on fewer errors, not winners. (I think the same rules holds true today, but Academy tennis teaches that you should hit more winners...)

That said, McEnroe's serve was never built on speed. His serve was built on disguise, placement, and spin. The best I ever saw McEnroe serve witha wood racket was when he played the Open in '82. The commentators remarked that his second serves were approaching 100 MPH. If I had to guess, I would guess that 70% of the aces that John McEnroe served in his career were under 100 MPH. McEnroe was more about throwing strikes than hitting aces.

I would also say that another difference is technology. Not so much the rackets as the radar guns. I think they either juice them now, or they work better. If we look at Agassi, it doesn't stand to reason that he woudl return better at when he was older than younger. And, if Roddick really hit 130 - 140 routinely, then we would have to believe that Agassi was a better returner in the twilight of his career? That's kind of hard to believe. I think it's more a case of advances in the radar guns used to clock serves. So, should we add a % to the speeds of old?

[The Gorilla]

Firstly, Agassi and Connors (alphabetic order) are the two greatest returners in the history of the sport. Agassi may have faced more speed, but Connors did his returning against servers who used more variety and placement than sheer power. He also did this with a racket smaller than your standard wood frame. I think both would do equally well if they were to swap eras.

Serving back in the day was as big, just not as often. Wood rackets mandated that the first serve be of higher percentage because it was riskier to hit a second serve. However, if a guy was up 40 - 0 and a big server, they could uncap some in the 120s. Remember that in the days of wood, professional tennis matches were won on fewer errors, not winners. (I think the same rules holds true today, but Academy tennis teaches that you should hit more winners...)

That said, McEnroe's serve was never built on speed. His serve was built on disguise, placement, and spin. The best I ever saw McEnroe serve witha wood racket was when he played the Open in '82. The commentators remarked that his second serves were approaching 100 MPH. If I had to guess, I would guess that 70% of the aces that John McEnroe served in his career were under 100 MPH. McEnroe was more about throwing strikes than hitting aces.

I would also say that another difference is technology. Not so much the rackets as the radar guns. I think they either juice them now, or they work better. If we look at Agassi, it doesn't stand to reason that he woudl return better at when he was older than younger. And, if Roddick really hit 130 - 140 routinely, then we would have to believe that Agassi was a better returner in the twilight of his career? That's kind of hard to believe. I think it's more a case of advances in the radar guns used to clock serves. So, should we add a % to the speeds of old?

agassi used cortisone towards the end of his career which is a steroid and could have beemn the erason for his bigger serve towards the end,just a thought.

[Rabbit]

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't referencing Agassi's serve at all. Agassi's returned against reportedly bigger servers. Agassi himself didn't serve bigger.

[superman1]

Even if the radar guns were a few mph too low back in the day, there is still no question that Roddick has the biggest serve of all time. McEnroe himself said that the 3 best servers were Sampras, Ivanisevic, and Becker, but that Roddick has the biggest serve in terms of pure pace. He has been on the receiving end of it in exhibitions and charity events. Agassi is 14-20 against Sampras, 4-3 against Ivanisevic, 10-4 against Becker (won 10 out of the 11 matches they played in the 90's), and 5-1 against Roddick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=728KQCplvDA

[The Gorilla]

Even if the radar guns were a few mph too low back in the day, there is still no question that Roddick has the biggest serve of all time. McEnroe himself said that the 3 best servers were Sampras, Ivanisevic, and Becker, but that Roddick has the biggest serve in terms of pure pace. He has been on the receiving end of it in exhibitions and charity events. Agassi is 14-20 against Sampras, 4-3 against Ivanisevic, 10-4 against Becker (won 10 out of the 11 matches they played in the 90's), and 5-1 against Roddick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=728KQCplvDA

connors played the 80's equivelant roscoe tanner,tanner and roscoe were both at a disadvatage because of their racquets,they were at an equal disadvantage as tanners serves were hit at less pace than todays whilst connors had to return with a racquet with a tiny head,connors record against tanner was 16-4.

[The Gorilla]

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't referencing Agassi's serve at all. Agassi's returned against reportedly bigger servers. Agassi himself didn't serve bigger.

sorry about that.

[superman1]

Connors lost to Roscoe Tanner 4 times? Wow, Jimmy must have been playing pretty bad.

[mctennis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC-pMS0bOs
He makes agaasi and blake look like roddick.

I agree he was a great returner. Especially with the fact he used that stupid metal racquet. Imagine him with a decent racquet? Has anyone else ever used that metal racquet? What a log that was.

[mctennis]

Connors lost to Roscoe Tanner 4 times? Wow, Jimmy must have been playing pretty bad.
Hard to return a rocket serve like Roscoe had.

[tennis playa]

think Connors was the best at actually getting huge serves back in play allowing him to stay in point...as far as hitting returns back for outright winners, I'd have to give the nod to Agassi.

In terms of getting the ball back into play deep into the court Joakim Nystrom was a much better returner than Connors. Anyone over 35 who saw this guy play would say the same and now that i think about it Wilander was a pretty consistent returner, okay so he never hit out right winners off serves but if the idea is to return the serve and stay in the point then he was right up there with the best

[Fedace]

well,you were barely out of nappys before he finished up so I think you are talking crap.He served 125-130 consistently in '92,I watched it,I know what I'm talking about,he was serving 128 against goran last year in an exhibition.

Gorilla, Mcenroe himself admitted that his serve never clocks consistantly in 120's, he actually said he wished it was and definitely Not in his prime in the 80's. His serve clocked in the range of 102-112 or so and sometimes he would even throw in a 1st serve in 90's to throw his opponents off. Mcenroe himself admitted that he tops out at 128 mph and that is even extremely rare occurance, and all this is out of his own mouth, so where are you getting your information from, ??:confused: :grin:

[The Gorilla]

Gorilla, Mcenroe himself admitted that his serve never clocks consistantly in 120's, he actually said he wished it was and definitely Not in his prime in the 80's. His serve clocked in the range of 102-112 or so and sometimes he would even throw in a 1st serve in 90's to throw his opponents off. Mcenroe himself admitted that he tops out at 128 mph and that is even extremely rare occurance, and all this is out of his own mouth, so where are you getting your information from, ??:confused: :grin:

I saw him serving that big against goran,or can't you read?

[The Gorilla]

In terms of getting the ball back into play deep into the court Joakim Nystrom was a much better returner than Connors. Anyone over 35 who saw this guy play would say the same and now that i think about it Wilander was a pretty consistent returner, okay so he never hit out right winners off serves but if the idea is to return the serve and stay in the point then he was right up there with the best

I don't agree with this definition of a great returner,that's like saying tommy robredo is a great server because he gets a huge percentage in.Most people look for free points off their serve,connors looked for free points off the return,and got them,consistently.

[tennis playa]

so your saying that a player who gets approx 80% of serves isn't a great server? just because he isn't hitting 35 aces per game doesn't detract from the terrific consistency. what you need to back up the 80% service success is a good, solid game. Look at Edberg, he had what was a relatively week F/H and yet he was still a multi G/S winner. The point i'm making is that a serve alone isn't going to win games week in week out, I mean look at the year Roddick had, if having a 'great serve' was such a huge advantage Roddick would have had the success the RF has had.

[The Gorilla]

so your saying that a player who gets approx 80% of serves isn't a great server? just because he isn't hitting 35 aces per game doesn't detract from the terrific consistency. what you need to back up the 80% service success is a good, solid game. Look at Edberg, he had what was a relatively week F/H and yet he was still a multi G/S winner. The point i'm making is that a serve alone isn't going to win games week in week out, I mean look at the year Roddick had, if having a 'great serve' was such a huge advantage Roddick would have had the success the RF has had.

Yes,but great servers get a high pecentage of serves in anyway,we take that for granted from them,they also place the ball and hit it with speed and disguise.Edberg had a crap forehand,but he only used it about 5% of the time,he lived at the net,he was an extraordinary volleyer.Roddick was extremely successful on hard when he served well,whenever he serves well he beats everyone in the world but federer,if he'd started serving well sooner he would have won more.He has been as successful as rafa when serving well,he just hasn't served well for as long period as rafa has played well,the fact that he has invaiaby beaten everyone but fed when he plays well proves that serving is an integral part of his success,just as nadal's speed is an integral part of his,if nadal wasn't fast he'd be verdasco,if roddick couldn't serve big he wouldn't be on our television screens.
but I digress,my point is,connors got a huge percentage of returns in play,no top of that he often won points outright on the return,he almost always put the server at a disadvantage,(something he was unable to do with his serve).Therefore simply getting a huge number of serves back isn't enough to make you a great returner.

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Agassi a better returner than connors imo and just a pure better ball striker in general. Agassi could be claimed as the best baseliner and returner ever.

[The Gorilla]

Agassi a better returner than connors imo and just a pure better ball striker in general. Agassi could be claimed as the best baseliner and returner ever.

No.you must give reasons and examples

[BaseLineBash]

No.you must give reasons and examples

This thread is a joke. It's like saying oxygen is useless. Reason? Because Andre Agassi is the best returner the game has ever seen! Examples? Any time he picks up a tennis racquet! What's your next thread title gonna be? The earth is really flat?

[The Gorilla]

This thread is a joke. It's like saying oxygen is useless. Reason? Because Andre Agassi is the best returner the game has ever seen! Examples? Any time he picks up a tennis racquet! What's your next thread title gonna be? The earth is really flat?

I hate fanboys.

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

No.you must give reasons and examples


How about because AA has won all four Grand Slams?

[BaseLineBash]

I hate fanboys.

Well, you must hate the truth as well then.

[superman1]

Agassi has been in the spotlight for the last 21 years. You need examples of why he was a great returner? One thing you could do is, I dunno, watch some of his matches? He played over a thousand of them, I'm sure you could pick one and check it out.

[The Gorilla]

Agassi has been in the spotlight for the last 21 years. You need examples of why he was a great returner? One thing you could do is, I dunno, watch some of his matches? He played over a thousand of them, I'm sure you could pick one and check it out.

jimmy connors had an even longer career than him,would have won all 4 slams in 1 year had he not been barred from the french open,had an even worse serve and an even better return.

[oberyn]

jimmy connors had an even longer career than him,would have won all 4 slams in 1 year had he not been barred from the french open,had an even worse serve and an even better return.

Thank you, someone provides some sanity and perspective. I admit to not being the biggest Agassi fan (too little substance, too many tanks, too many losses on the big stage, too intimidated by Sampras, too much weight placed on taking advantage of a choke job by Medvedv. which is the sine qua non of the Agassi is a legedn factor) but Connors as a returner was absolutely brilliant. His returns absolutely frightened people and with a raquet, IMO, with which no one else could hit.

[BaseLineBash]

Thank you, someone provides some sanity and perspective. I admit to not being the biggest Agassi fan (too little substance, too many tanks, too many losses on the big stage, too intimidated by Sampras, too much weight placed on taking advantage of a choke job by Medvedv. which is the sine qua non of the Agassi is a legedn factor) but Connors as a returner was absolutely brilliant. His returns absolutely frightened people and with a raquet, IMO, with which no one else could hit.

Blah blah blah... When you enter a tournament you don't automaticly play the final, you have to get there on your own...you know? He was down 2 sets too! As for the Sampras intimidation... 14-20! head to head, granted it wasn't all in big venues... Just because you're not big on Agassi doesn't mean he wasn't the best returner the game has ever seen... and just because I'm an Agassi fan doesn't mean he was. Opinions... bias'... All you have to do is WATCH! Just WATCH! It doesn't matter how you feel about it him, matters on this subject are as plain as day.

[The Gorilla]

Blah blah blah... When you enter a tournament you don't automaticly play the final, you have to get there on your own...you know? He was down 2 sets too! As for the Sampras intimidation... 14-20! head to head, granted it wasn't all in big venues... Just because you're not big on Agassi doesn't mean he wasn't the best returner the game has ever seen... and just because I'm an Agassi fan doesn't mean he was. Opinions... bias'... All you have to do is WATCH! Just WATCH! It doesn't matter how you feel about it him, matters on this subject are as plain as day.

after beating the top seed stefan edberg in straight sets in the last sixteen of the us open in 1989 jimmy connor pushed agassi to four sets at the age of 37 in the quarterfinals of the us open,at the age of 39,after a year off tennis recovering from a completely collapsed wrist,he got to the semi's,only to lose to the french open champion jim courier.He's won 105 tournaments to agassi's 60,they've won 8 gs's each,though 4 of agassi's were in the australian open,and had he played on the grass of jimmy's era,he would have won one at most.HE Was Better Than Agassi,In Every Single Way,More of an as$hole as a young player,more respected as an older player,had a longer career,had an even worse serve,had a much better return,Faaaaar more exciting player,should have won all 4 gs's in one year but was barred for playing wtt instead of atp,he....was.....BETTER!!!!!!

[BaseLineBash]

after beating the top seed stefan edberg in straight sets in the last sixteen of the us open in 1989 jimmy connor pushed agassi to four sets at the age of 37 in the quarterfinals of the us open,at the age of 39,after a year off tennis recovering from a completely collapsed wrist,he got to the semi's,only to lose to the french open champion jim courier.He's won 105 tournaments to agassi's 60,they've won 8 gs's each,though 4 of agassi's were in the australian open,and had he played on the grass of jimmy's era,he would have won one at most.HE Was Better Than Agassi,In Every Single Way,More of an as$hole as a young player,more respected as an older player,had a longer career,had an even worse serve,had a much better return,Faaaaar more exciting player,should have won all 4 gs's in one year but was barred for playing wtt instead of atp,he....was.....BETTER!!!!!!

He was NOT the better returner. You can A.) Take my word for it, or B.) Put some Agassi footage on your tv. Next thread title.... Do the 4 dimensions really exist? I know... I'm psychic.

[The Gorilla]

He was NOT the better returner. You can A.) Take my word for it, or B.) Put some Agassi footage on your tv. Next thread title.... Do the 4 dimensions really exist? I know... I'm psychic.

you're a troll.

[llama]

you're a troll.

How can you call someone who's been here TWICE as long as you - and has THREE times the amount of posts - a troll?

If there ever was a troll and a "fanboy" around here...

[The Gorilla]

How can you call someone who's been here TWICE as long as you - and has THREE times the amount of posts - a troll?

If there ever was a troll and a "fanboy" around here...

yes,of course,trolls are renowned for their discretion when it comes to posting...........idiot.

[Rabbit]

In terms of getting the ball back into play deep into the court Joakim Nystrom was a much better returner than Connors. Anyone over 35 who saw this guy play would say the same and now that i think about it Wilander was a pretty consistent returner, okay so he never hit out right winners off serves but if the idea is to return the serve and stay in the point then he was right up there with the best

You'll be happy to know that you share the same insight as Mats Wilander. At the Seniors Event in Memphis, returning came up and Wilander interjected Nystrom as the greatest returner ever, better than Connors and Agassi.

I believe that Wilander teamed with Nystrom and won Wimbledon together and were long-term doubles partners. Anyway, Wilander (who had a pretty darn good return himself) said Nystrom was tops in his book.

[oberyn]

14-20! head to head, granted it wasn't all in big venues...

LOL. That's a definite understatement. 4-1 in majors, the biggest venues of them all.

Just because you're not big on Agassi doesn't mean he wasn't the best returner the game has ever seen... and just because I'm an Agassi fan doesn't mean he was. Opinions... bias'... All you have to do is WATCH! Just WATCH! It doesn't matter how you feel about it him, matters on this subject are as plain as day.

Well, in a debate such as this both of our opinions are likely to be biased, almost by definition. I'm actually not a Connors fan, either. I just think that, given the conditions, raquet technology, etc. Connors was a slightly better returner.

[superman1]

Since there is no way to numerically rate how good a return of serve is, there can be no end to this debate. Same goes for every single other debate on these boards. Who had the best serve of all time? I say Sampras, someone says Ivanisevic, someone says Roddick, someone says Pancho Gonzalez. Who the hell knows.

Let's just say Agassi and Connors are two of the best returners ever.

[The Gorilla]

someone has just launched a similar thread.

[alwaysatnet]

Just based on the fact that Connors spent a good deal of his career playing with a racquet that had a sweet spot the size of a tea spoon I would claim that Jimmy was the best.

[drakulie]

Just based on the fact that Connors spent a good deal of his career playing with a racquet that had a sweet spot the size of a tea spoon I would claim that Jimmy was the best.

That rationale would disqualify every player that has played since Connors. IN fact, unless the rules change to make players play with smaller head sizes, it would disqualify every player until the end of eternity.


In fact, that rationale could be applied to the GOAT discussion. Congratulations, you just disqualified every player who has or will ever play tennis after Connors retired from the GOAT discussion.

[alwaysatnet]

That rationale would disqualify every player that has played since Connors. IN fact, unless the rules change to make players play with smaller head sizes, it would disqualify every player until the end of eternity.


In fact, that rationale could be applied to the GOAT discussion. Congratulations, you just disqualified every player who has or will ever play tennis after Connors retired from the GOAT discussion. Not in the least,my legally minded friend. It's just recognizing the fact that Jimmy Connors was a fantastic returner and in addition to that he used such sub par racquets. I'm sure Agassi fans will not agree with me and their man used a considerably larger frame, as I'm sure you know. Connors is the cake. His T-2000 was just the icing. Don't confuse the cake with the icing.

[Gilgamesh]

I saw him serving that big against goran,or can't you read?

Are you sure? I need footage proof of this. Maybe it was in km lol. No but seriously I am a huge JMac fan and watched a ton of his matches and I have never seen a match where he was consistently hitting 130 mph serves. Maybe it was the wind?

[noeledmonds]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC-pMS0bOs
He makes agaasi and blake look like roddick.

A clip of Agassi against Sampras. This man can return too you know:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLy3yIdexIU

[drakulie]

Not in the least,my legally minded friend. It's just recognizing the fact that Jimmy Connors was a fantastic returner and in addition to that he used such sub par racquets. I'm sure Agassi fans will not agree with me and their man used a considerably larger frame, as I'm sure you know. Connors is the cake. His T-2000 was just the icing. Don't confuse the cake with the icing.

LOL. You are funny, but don't persuade.

Connors may have used a smaller head than AA but he also did not have to return against guys hitting 130.

[The Gorilla]

LOL. You are funny, but don't persuade.

Connors may have used a smaller head than AA but he also did not have to return against guys hitting 130.

all things being equal, returning with a racquet with a tiny head is more difficult against a 115mph serve ,than returning with a racquet the size of a bus against a serve that is aout 10mph harder.

at the very least you'd have to admit it is equally difficult.

[alwaysatnet]

LOL. You are funny, but don't persuade.

Connors may have used a smaller head than AA but he also did not have to return against guys hitting 130. I think he had to face some big servers in his long career. I have to admit though outside of Roscoe Tanner I can't think of one right now.

[bluegrasser]

I think he had to face some big servers in his long career. I have to admit though outside of Roscoe Tanner I can't think of one right now.

Kevin Curren (s?) comes to mind...

[alwaysatnet]

Of course!

[FiveO]

John Alexander, Colin Dibley and Victor Amaya are a few more. Amaya reached a career high of 15 with his enormous serve. Alexander was the #1 junior in the world in 1969, and reached a career high of #8 in the pros before a bad back took him out. Very Stich-like while he played. Dibley reached over 140 mph on his serve with a wood Dunlop Maxply Fort.

[drakulie]

I think he had to face some big servers in his long career. I have to admit though outside of Roscoe Tanner I can't think of one right now.

So you got Tanner, and Curren??? And how many times in his career did he have to face these two guys?? 31 times between the two. Please!

Agassi, faced Sampras 34 times alone. Furthermore, he CONSISTENTLY had to face guys hitting in the 120+ range, which inlcuded 1st round opponents.

Even the no-names during his era hit harder than the best servers in Connor's era.

[drakulie]

all things being equal, returning with a racquet with a tiny head is more difficult against a 115mph serve ,than returning with a racquet the size of a bus against a serve that is aout 10mph harder.

at the very least you'd have to admit it is equally difficult.

You either have me on your ignore list or you don't. Make up your mind!!!

[FiveO]

Hank Pfister, Paul Annacone and John Sadri were also huge servers during Connors day.

[CanadianChic]

You either have me on your ignore list or you don't. Make up your mind!!!

No one can ever ignore you Drak - especially when your posts are quoted. lol ;)

[Rabbit]

And let's not forget Butch Bucholz and Steve Denton.

[The Gorilla]

No one can ever ignore you Drak - especially when your posts are quoted. lol ;)

I wasn't logged in as the gorilla when I read his post.He is SO on my ignore list though!

[drakulie]

Ha, ha! Post #91 you are logged in as The Gorilla, and you use even used the quote function to quote me.

[MordredSJT]

agassi used cortisone towards the end of his career which is a steroid and could have beemn the erason for his bigger serve towards the end,just a thought.

Absurd statements like this tell you all you need to know about this thread. A tiny bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing...