How was the matchup between Navratilova and Graf?

[Gundam]

I've seen Navratilova vs. Evert (I am almost done with 'the RIVAL'. Great read!)
I've seen Graf vs. Seles
but haven't seen Navratilova vs. Graf.

How did they match up against each other (Style, personality, tactics etc)? Graf leads 9:8 according to WTA site (very close).

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/2/players/playerprofiles/playerheadtoheaddetail.asp?PlayerID=70044&Player1ID=140007&x=9&y=8

[urban]

I always thought, it was 9-9, but maybe i am wrong. Graf had always problems with the lefthanded slice serve of Martina, which was aimed at her weaker backhand side. Mostly she played a slice backhand as return, which could be volleyed away by Navratilova. In the Wim final of 1988, when Graf hit the return as topspin backhand - a thing she did in training, but seldom in matches - she turned the match around. In a structural way, Martina had more problems with Sabatini or Seles, players with stronger backhands than with Graf. But then, there were the intangibles and the mental side. Martina lost many close matches to Steffi, from the RG final 1987 on, which Martina should have won. Martina had weak nerves, she lost some close encounters to Chrissie Evert and Tracy Austin, too, when she had big leads. So, in the clutch, Steffi quite often came from behind and won in three. But she had always structural problems with the offensive style of Martina.

[Condoleezza]

I always thought, it was 9-9, but maybe i am wrong. Graf had always problems with the lefthanded slice serve of Martina, which was aimed at her weaker backhand side. Mostly she played a slice backhand as return, which could be volleyed away by Navratilova. In the Wim final of 1988, when Graf hit the return as topspin backhand - a thing she did in training, but seldom in matches - she turned the match around. In a structural way, Martina had more problems with Sabatini or Seles, players with stronger backhands than with Graf. But then, there were the intangibles and the mental side. Martina lost many close matches to Steffi, from the RG final 1987 on, which Martina should have won. Martina had weak nerves, she lost some close encounters to Chrissie Evert and Tracy Austin, too, when she had big leads. So, in the clutch, Steffi quite often came from behind and won in three. But she had always structural problems with the offensive style of Martina.


Navratilova vs. Graf: 9-9
1985/86: 5-1
1987-90: 2-6
1991-94: 2-2

Navratilova should not have won FO 1987. Graf had won the first set, then lost her nerves a little bit and allowed Martina to run away until she led Steffi with 5-3 in the 3rd set. Than Martina lost her nerves a little bit and Steffi played some awesome points.
Navratilova played her last match on slow courts (clay, AO ReboundAce etc.) against Steffi when Steffi was 17 years old (in 1987). Martina avoided Graf on those courts later. Understandably.


Navratilova vs. Sabatini: 7-3
1986-90: 5-0 (10-0 sets)
1991-94: 2-3

Gaby's first two wins were 3-setters. Her 3rd win was Navratilova's last match ever (YEC 94) when Martina was 38.


Navratilova lost her first match against Graf in 1986 (Navratilova was 29, Steffi was only 16) her first match against Sabatini in 1991 (Navratilova was 34).



I'm looking forward to your next tennis analysis, Urban ..... :D


Condi

[urban]

Nice stats, but not true (besides the 9-9, which correspondents with my estimation). Who won the match 1987 in Rome, Martina vs. Sabatini, a match that put womens Italian on the map? Also, even in her prime, Graf had difficulties with Martina's style. The interpungation of streaks is misleading: In 1987 Martina won two matches, but the two most important, Wim and Flushing final. If you read my post, i differentiate between style of play and mental attitude. Martina should have won this final at RG 1987, i saw it, she gave it away in the wind with double faults. In almost all matches, even those she lost, Martina had one set leads, and lost her nerves and her serve. The 1988 Wim match was Graf's best ever, because - after a rain break - she straigthened out her backhand and overwhelmed Martina in the third. Ask Tracy Austin, she did the same to Narvratilova's nerves, although she hadn't the class of Graf.

[Condoleezza]

Nice stats, but not true (besides the 9-9, which correspondents with my estimation). Who won the match 1987 in Rome, Martina vs. Sabatini, a match that put womens Italian on the map? Also, even in her prime, Graf had difficulties with Martina's style. The interpungation of streaks is misleading: In 1987 Martina won two matches, but the two most important, Wim and Flushing final. If you read my post, i differentiate between style of play and mental attitude. Martina should have won this final at RG 1987, i saw it, she gave it away in the wind with double faults. In almost all matches, even those she lost, Martina had one set leads, and lost her nerves and her serve. The 1988 Wim match was Graf's best ever, because - after a rain break - she straigthened out her backhand and overwhelmed Martina in the third. Ask Tracy Austin, she did the same to Narvratilova's nerves, although she hadn't the class of Graf.


The ITF data base doesn't know anything of a Rome 1987 Navratilova-Sabatini match ....
Clay anyway.


FO 87:
Navratilova made only 5 double faults in the whole FO 87 final against Steffi. 3 in the last 3 service games. What makes you think she would have won those points if her serves had landed within the box? What makes you think she "deserved" not to double-fault? Steffi made unforced errors in that match as well. Did she deserve them?

Wim 88:
The rain break during the Wimbledon final 1988 occured AFTER Graf had won 9 of the previous 10 games (at 5-7 6-2 3-1 coming from 5-7 0-2). It is an "urban myth" that a rain break contributed anything to Navratilova's spectacular downfall that day.


Condi

[urban]

You don't have other stats than the ITF, o dear. You don't know about the famous Martina-Sabatini match up in the Rome semifinal 1987? What do you know about womens tennis at all? And where from you have your double fault stats? Anyway, Martina did offer Stefanie the match RG 1987 on a silver tablet, beginning to serve double faults. The match point was a double, too. Not to be misunderstood: If you rank Steffi and Martina against each other, both have their pro and cons. But regarding the style of play, Martina was a bad match up for Stefanie (with one f).

[Condoleezza]

You don't have other stats than the ITF, o dear. You don't know about the famous Martina-Sabatini match up in the Rome semifinal 1987? What do you know about womens tennis at all? And where from you have your double fault stats? Anyway, Martina did offer Stefanie the match RG 1987 on a silver tablet, beginning to serve double faults. The match point was a double, too. Not to be misunderstood: If you rank Steffi and Martina against each other, both have their pro and cons. But regarding the style of play, Martina was a bad match up for Stefanie (with one f).

No.
Let's eliminate the matches when Steffi was too young (before she won her first WTA tournament in 1986) and Navratilova was too old (after she won her last slam in 1990). Then Steffi leads Martina 7-4 head-to-head, 4-2 in slams.

Martina was afraid to play Steffi because Steffi was a bad match-up for her.

Condi

[VikingSamurai]

How about we eliminate the times Martina played with her glasses on, then with her glasses off.....

Or when Steffi had to blow her nose between points, and when she didnt!...

Sheesh.. Just make it up as you go there Condiiiiiii..

[Gundam]

Haha,

I wonder if you all have all this information in your brains. Or do you always keep a copy of Bud Collins' Tennis encyclopedia beside you. Thanks for the interesting stories. Can anyone suggest a match or two between two? I don't like to watch 'my hero' destroying a lesser opponent. I like very competitive ones between two eqaully talented, fit gladiators. Thanks!

btw, Graf's Topspin 1HBH intrigues me (wimby final against MN). I know she could hit it quite well. One thing I mind about Graf is her backhand. Almost 100% slice, which was effective but kinda boring to watch.

[Condoleezza]

How about we eliminate the times Martina played with her glasses on, then with her glasses off.....

Or when Steffi had to blow her nose between points, and when she didnt!...

Sheesh.. Just make it up as you go there Condiiiiiii..



Eliminating matches when one player was 16 or younger or the other player was 33 or older doesn't seem to be arbitrary to me.

In any case, to suggest that Navratilova had less "structural" difficulties with Graf than with Sabatini (!) is ludicrous beyond repair. Well, that came from a poster who thought Navratilova "deserved" to win FO 87 (that means: this German b**** didn't!). A U.S. poster for sure .....

Condi

[Condoleezza]

Haha,

I wonder if you all have all this information in your brains. Or do you always keep a copy of Bud Collins' Tennis encyclopedia beside you. Thanks for the interesting stories. Can anyone suggest a match or two between two? I don't like to watch 'my hero' destroying a lesser opponent. I like very competitive ones between two eqaully talented, fit gladiators. Thanks!
....

That the problem for Graf fans - there were no equally talented, fit gladiators who could cope with Steffi ......


.... btw, Graf's Topspin 1HBH intrigues me (wimby final against MN). I know she could hit it quite well. One thing I mind about Graf is her backhand. Almost 100% slice, which was effective but kinda boring to watch.

You don't win 2 Wimbledon titles against the S&V queen Martina N. with 5-7 6-2 6-1 and 6-2 6-7 6-1 scorelines with 100% slice.
In both matches, Navratilova played only ONE tight set (won them) and was totally destroyed in the remaining sets.
Especially the 1988 Wimbledon final showed how good Graf could play. Peak Graf was completely unassailable. In the last 53 minutes Graf broke Navratilova in 7 service games in a row.

Steffi played some similar matches in the late 80ies. Sadly, she was hampered bigtime in the 90ies with tons of injuries (and off-court distractions). So we never saw what she could have done with all her talent.

Only 22 slams - I would not have believed it if someone had told me that at the end of 1989! I was SURE that Steffi would win at least 30 of the 40 slams of the 90ies!!

Condi

[VikingSamurai]

Yeah and you cant change history to just suit your story either.. Regardless of age, they still played. Like it or lump it. But it happened..

[eunjam]

steffi just came on....and started DOMINATING.