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ATPballkid
01-15-2007, 08:12 PM
1880s - Renshaw / Sears -- Bingley Hillyard
1890s - R. Doherty / Wrenn-- Dod / Atkinson
1900s - L. Doherty / Larned -- Douglass Chambers
1910s - Wilding -- Douglass Chambers / Mallory
1920s - Tilden -- Lenglen
1930s - Budge -- Wills Moody
1940s - Kramer -- Brough
1950s - Gonzales -- Connolly
1960s - Rosewall -- Court
1970s - Borg -- Evert
1980s - Lendl -- Navratilova
1990s - Sampras -- Seles until she was stabbed
2000s - Federer projected -- Henin-Hardenne/Sharapova projected

Tennis was not so much an international sport before the 1920s and 1930s (really became an international sport in 1925). Therefore, it is harder to have a best player of the sport for those earlier years -- except you have to go with Wilding in the 1910s.

There are some very good players --- Cochet, Lacoste, Perry, Vines, Crawford, Hoad, Laver, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Wilander and Agassi among the men and Jacobs, Marble, du Pont, Hart, Fry, Hard, Gibson, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Graf and Hingis among the women --- who just were not quite good enough to be considered the best players of their decades.

Things look great for Roger Federer and Justine Henin-Hardenne or Maria Sharapova as Players of the Decade for the 2000s. Going to be hard to take a position against them based on what they have accomplished already and what they are likely to accomplish over the years remaining between 2007 and 2010.

bribeiro
01-15-2007, 08:25 PM
There are some very good players --- Graf who just were not quite good enough to be considered the best players of their decades.
.


LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

ATPballkid
01-15-2007, 08:33 PM
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Of course, Navratilova was the female player of the decade for the 1980s ... Monica Seles was well on her way to being the female player of the 1990s until a Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

chrisfromalbany
01-16-2007, 11:13 AM
why is Roger projected, I think he is lock as of now.

maxply
01-16-2007, 02:13 PM
why not Laver for the 1960's the man won 2 grand slams and 11 slams overall.

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 02:12 PM
1880s - Renshaw / Sears -- Bingley Hillyard
1890s - R. Doherty / Wrenn-- ....



19th century - some Brits ....
20th century - Borg -- Graf
21th century - (can't be projected as of now)

Condi

Sagittar
01-17-2007, 02:16 PM
we're in 2007 already and i dont think that in the next 3 years we'll have anyone to beat fed's accomplishments and consistency ..
so he's ofcourse the player of this decade ..

Grimjack
01-17-2007, 02:54 PM
we're in 2007 already and i dont think that in the next 3 years we'll have anyone to beat fed's accomplishments and consistency ..
so he's ofcourse the player of this decade ..

Three straight calendar grand slams by somebody else wouldn't convince you? Of course it's not going to happen, but chronologically, it still could. Until there is no mathematical way somebody could best Fed's accomplishments, one must only project, if one is to remain fair and unbiased.

At the same time, if it were, say, Nadal who were to win three consecutive grand slams, but only after he had hired somebody to run onto the court and stab Federer in the back with a knife, then you'd have to take that into account and consider Fed the true "player of the decade" anyway. Just like the OP did (correctly) for Seles.

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 03:26 PM
Three straight calendar grand slams by somebody else wouldn't convince you? Of course it's not going to happen, but chronologically, it still could. Until there is no mathematical way somebody could best Fed's accomplishments, one must only project, if one is to remain fair and unbiased.

At the same time, if it were, say, Nadal who were to win three consecutive grand slams, but only after he had hired somebody to run onto the court and stab Federer in the back with a knife, then you'd have to take that into account and consider Fed the true "player of the decade" anyway. Just like the OP did (correctly) for Seles.

Nadal hired someone to stab Seles in the back with a knife?
And Seles lead Nadal in the rankings with more than 4,000 rankings points?

Wow, Dimjack, what a story ....

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-17-2007, 07:54 PM
Borg - Graf 20th Century..

Thats just funny!:D


You are F'n delusional.......Seriously!

How about Emerson- Court

And the thing is, I didnt have to change history to get that pairing...:-D

I would have put Sampras ahead of Borg, but he crossed centuries..

Why do you keep doing this to yourself?.. I am starting to think you have some sort of sickness, and for that I feel for you!

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 10:13 PM
Borg - Graf 20th Century..

Thats just funny!:D


You are F'n delusional.......Seriously!

....


The most important and prestigious vote went to Steffi:


"Greatest of the Century

Steffi won the 'ball sports' category at the ``World Sports Awards of the Century'' in Vienna. Unfortunately she couldn't attend the ceremony because of a viral infection. Michael Jorden also won an award in the same category. The event was sponsored by the International Olympic Committee (IOC).

Former world heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali won the martial arts category while the soccor award went to Pele. Former U.S. sprinter and long jumper Carl Lewis won the men's award in athletics and general sports while former Romanian gymnast Nadia Comaneci took the women's category.Former Australian swimmer Dawn Fraser was close to tears when she received her women's award in the water sports category while Mark Spitz won the men's category.France's Formula One driver Alain Prost won the motor sports category while the winter
sports awards went to Alpine skiers Annemarie Moser-Proell of Austria and Frenchman Jean-Claude Killy.

The jury included IOC president Juan Antonio Samaranch, Prince Albert of Monaco, FIFA president Sepp Blatter and motor racing chief Max Mosley."


Could it get more official?
Actually I don't know of ANY vote - at least not outside of the USA or Australia - which didn't see Steffi victorious as greatest female tennis player of the 20th century.

Do you?



Condi

VikingSamurai
01-18-2007, 12:07 AM
Well they do seem to give alot of awards away these days.. Seems to be an awards show for everything now days...

Its just a shame that the people alive at the start of the century werent around to give their opinions..

Anyway, I dont need to keep telling everyone that you are a ******, because you are doing a great job of that yourself.. Although, for a ******, I will say one thing.. You do have alot of good googling, cutting and pasting skills!

Oh, and no life;)

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 12:45 AM
Well they do seem to give alot of awards away these days.. Seems to be an awards show for everything now days...

Its just a shame that the people alive at the start of the century werent around to give their opinions..


The next ******** post from you.
The people alive at the start of century don't know the whole picture because they weren't able to watch the sports stars of the middle of the century and the of the end of the century.

This award was sponsored by the International Olympic Committee (IOC), the premier sports body of this planet. The ceremony was held in the State Opera in Vienna with head of state present. Muhammad Ali, Carl Lewis, Mark Spitz and almost all the other winners were there (Jordan and Graf were absent due to match/illness).

The IOC refers to Graf as "Greatest Sportswoman of the 20th Century in the Ball Sports Category" since then. And no, Navratilova, Evert and Court didn't win ....

.... Anyway, I dont need to keep telling everyone that you are a ******, because you are doing a great job of that yourself.. Although, for a ******, I will say one thing.. You do have alot of good googling, cutting and pasting skills! ....


Yeah, those damn facts!! :D :D

You seem to suffer a lot from learning that the world prefers Graf to US-American citizens Navratilova and Evert.
Well - live with it, Jingo-Boy .... :p

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-18-2007, 01:18 AM
Huh?....

I am an Australian, why would I have a thing for American players?

Regardless off that fact, I dont care what country they came from. And I am happy to give Graf her props for being a great player.

Stats dont add up to facts. And the only fact I am worried about is that Margaret Court is the all time champion. Not because she is Australian. But because she won more Grand Slams than Graf did. And that was just in singles!..

You never mentioned what country you are from, and why you have a hatred for the United States?..

Infact, most people dont even know what sex you are.. How about you add a few stats about yourself, or cant you Google those facts?

We'll see...;)

Duzza
01-18-2007, 01:24 AM
I think Connors and Laver should fit in there.

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 01:32 AM
Huh?....

I am an Australian, why would I have a thing for American players?

....


Same language, several wars fought together. Australia essentially is a US bridgehead in the Pacific (comparable to Hawaii).


Huh?....
....
Regardless off that fact, I dont care what country they came from. And I am happy to give Graf her props for being a great player.

Stats dont add up to facts. And the only fact I am worried about is that Margaret Court is the all time champion. Not because she is Australian. But because she won more Grand Slams than Graf did. And that was just in singles!..

You never mentioned what country you are from, and why you have a hatred for the United States?..

Infact, most people dont even know what sex you are.. How about you add a few stats about yourself, or cant you Google those facts?

We'll see...;)


Court is debatable. Although she won most of 11 Ozzy titles against some Australian amateur girls only. Won only 3 Wimbledons. Was the best player in 1962/63, 1965, 1969/70 and 1973. Six years only.

Graf won her 22 slams against the best players in the world. Won 7 Wimbledons. Was best player in 1987-90 and 1993-96. Eight years.

I have no hatred for the US. As a matter of fact I like the present administration (Bush, Cheney, Ms. Rice) a lot. I miss Rumsfeld already.

I'm from Nigeria living in Belgium. Female, 35 years old.

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-18-2007, 02:41 AM
So now you are going to give me a history lesson on Australia are you?..

Your first comment above just shows just how uneducated you really are my love.. Normally I would get upset at someone making such a silly comment. But then you gave your stats below, and so at your age, you should probably know a little better?..

I think you are an angry middle aged woman that obviously has more time on your hands than friends.. So I will just let your nonsence slide.. I myself am 32, but I simply wont allow myself to bow to your pittyfull level..

You post for reactions, not conversation..... Its ok to have a little fun with each other on the boards, but you just take it a little too far.. I dont know you personally, but I am sure I would like you in person. I just cant believe that someone could be this argumentative in real life?

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 02:58 AM
So now you are going to give me a history lesson on Australia are you?..

Your first comment above just shows just how uneducated you really are my love.. Normally I would get upset at someone making such a silly comment. But then you gave your stats below, and so at your age, you should probably know a little better?..


Which "stats"?

Are you stoned .... ?


Condi

VikingSamurai
01-18-2007, 04:14 AM
Its not the fact that you are 35 that bothers me.. Its the fact that at your age, you are acting like someone a 3rd your age..:sad:

And that you are so angry!....

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 05:00 AM
Its not the fact that you are 35 that bothers me.. Its the fact that at your age, you are acting like someone a 3rd your age..:sad:

And that you are so angry!....


What makes you think I'm angry?
Actually I'm handing out sarcastic remarks rather lightheartedly.
It is a real fun to annoy people with statistical data and facts!!

Look, the original poster is a well-known Seles fanatic in the internet.
She loves to post her usualy "greatest player by decade" post again and again. It's only use is to exclude and diss Graf ("80ies: Navratilova - 90ies. Seles (until she was stabbed)").

Bringing up that really important is which player is seen as the CENTURY's greatest - and underlining that with the well-publicized 1999 International Olympic Committee awards simply makes my day.


Same with the idea that Seles "most probably" or "most certainly" would have won a 4th consecutive AO and (and!!) FO title without the stabbing. To remind those ********s that only in 3 of 14 occasions a player (women, post-WW2) has made the 4th title in a row - at least! - puts this claim into perspective, don't you think? Most people never would have guessed that fact.

Same with the fact that #1 Seles lost 5 of 7 matches against Graf. Most people simply have forgotten that.

And same with the fact that Seles's winning percentage in her best year ever (1992) was WORSE than Graf's winning percentage over a 11-year time span (1986-96). Almost no one knows that.


Those are 3 simply DEVASTATING stats for Seles whackos. The answer almost always are ad-hominem attacks towards me.
So what ....

:D :D :D

Condi

FedSampras
01-19-2007, 06:24 PM
What makes you think I'm angry?
Actually I'm handing out sarcastic remarks rather lightheartedly.
It is a real fun to annoy people with statistical data and facts!!




Luckily for Graff and Parche, they benefited from an absence of competition with there being no other real contender besides Seles, otherwise Parche would have needed to stab multiple people to inflate his girl's record.

FedSampras
01-19-2007, 06:34 PM
19th century - some Brits ....
20th century - Borg -- Graf
21th century - (can't be projected as of now)

Condi

I admire the tenacity of Condi who maintain otherwise in the teeth of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I wish i had fans that were that fanatical and blind.

Graff will always be known as ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german gave her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE.

Are you paid to act ********....?

drakulie
01-19-2007, 07:04 PM
Seles until she was stabbed


Zero wimbledon titles.

Amone
01-20-2007, 06:14 AM
Same language, several wars fought together. Australia essentially is a US bridgehead in the Pacific (comparable to Hawaii).

I'm not sure where you derived your ideas on this one... Considering that Australians were originally British, and for quite some time Americans and British were deathly enemies. That one kinda confused me. Granted that nowadays they're bosom friends.

However, considering, I enjoy your argumentative spirit (when I keep my head on my shoulders) and actually quite enjoy similar arguments-for-their-own-sake myself.

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 07:44 AM
Zero wimbledon titles.

Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.

These are the major records in women's tennis that date back decades and decades to 1925 and earlier.

No stabbings of the top players by any of these 5 players or their fans.

Graf has a couple of records, but they are tied to much more recent developments in the 1970s -- things like most weeks ranked #1 since the WTA began in the early 1970s and most hardcourt Slams.

Pretty sad to not be the best at anything dating back to before the Open Era in tennis began in 1968 -- especially since Graf and her career will always have the stabbing incident.

That is one reason Steffi Graf should never be considered the best of all-time --- she would not have even been the best of any specific decade without the Seles stabbing --- but even moreso because her career will always be tarnished by the stabbing of the undiputed top player in women's tennis in 1993, Monica Seles.

drakulie
01-20-2007, 08:25 AM
ATP, you could write from here to eternity and Seles will NEVER have a Wimbledon title.

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 08:27 AM
I'm not sure where you derived your ideas on this one... Considering that Australians were originally British, and for quite some time Americans and British were deathly enemies. That one kinda confused me. Granted that nowadays they're bosom friends.

However, considering, I enjoy your argumentative spirit (when I keep my head on my shoulders) and actually quite enjoy similar arguments-for-their-own-sake myself.

;-)


Condi

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 08:30 AM
...That is one reason Steffi Graf should never be considered the best of all-time --- ....


Tell that to all the tennis experts and fans out there - most consider here to be the best and greatest of all time.
May be different among American and Australian lesbians ...

Condi

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 08:33 AM
ATP, you could write from here to eternity and Seles will NEVER have a Wimbledon title.


And she will NEVER

- have a positive H2H against Graf

- have a higher winning percentage in her best year than Graf had in a 11-year period (1986-96)

- have at least one tenth of the fans Graf still has

- never marry a nice and rich guy like Andre Agassi.


Condi

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 09:01 AM
Tell that to all the tennis experts and fans out there - most consider here to be the best and greatest of all time.
May be different among American and Australian lesbians ...

Condi

Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY.

Some players have all 3 ... some have 2 of the 3 ... and some have to rely on a fan stabbing another player to even have 2 of the 3.

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 09:02 AM
And she will NEVER

- have a positive H2H against Graf

- have a higher winning percentage in her best year than Graf had in a 11-year period (1986-96)

- have at least one tenth of the fans Graf still has

- never marry a nice and rich guy like Andre Agassi.


Condi

And she will NEVER

-have a Gunther Parche

Chris was the greatest on slow surfaces ..

Martina was greatest on fast surfaces ..

but Steffi was great on ALL surfaces as long as Monica Seles was stabbed in the back with a knife by a Graf fan.

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 09:19 AM
Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY.
...


Graf has FIVE years with at least 3 slams and Wimbledon among them:
1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996.
Dominance.

Graf had a 93.6 winning percentage over a 11-year span (1986-97).
Consistency.

Graf won FO in 1987 AND twelve years later in 1999 against the then #1 player (Navratilova, Hingis).
Longevity.

She is the most respected female tennis player in the world for a reason.

Condi

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 09:25 AM
Graf has FIVE years with at least 3 slams and Wimbledon among them:
1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996.
Dominance.

Graf had a 93.6 winning percentage over a 11-year span (1986-97).
Consistency.

Graf won FO in 1987 AND twelve years later in 1999 against the then #1 player (Navratilova, Hingis).
Longevity.

She is the most respected female tennis player in the world for a reason.

Condi

You missed MY point ... Graf has no all-time record for most singles or doubles titles at ANY of the 5 biggest events -- even with her help from Gunther Parche.

Graf has a 30 year record (most weeks #1) ... Graf has a 25 year record (most U.S. Opens on hardcourts) ... Graf has another 25 year record (most Grand Slam singles titles on hardcourts).

That is as close as she gets, and she can thank Gunther Parche for those.

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 11:48 AM
You missed MY point ... Graf has no all-time record for most singles or doubles titles at ANY of the 5 biggest events -- ...


Each slam won at least 4 times.
Each of the 3 most prestigious slams (FO, Wimbledon, USO) won at least 5 times.
The Golden Grand Slam.
No one can touch that.

BTW, which is the 5th "big event"? The "Avon Tour Championships"?

Condi

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 12:10 PM
Each slam won at least 4 times.
Each of the 3 most prestigious slams (FO, Wimbledon, USO) won at least 5 times.
The Golden Grand Slam.
No one can touch that.

BTW, which is the 5th "big event"? The "Avon Tour Championships"?

Condi

Nope ... Steffi/Gunther did not do this SINCE 1993.

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 01:08 PM
Nope ... Steffi/Gunther did not do this SINCE 1993.


So, enough for today.

I'm going to watch a DVD from the "Golden Graf Wimbledon Victories Box (7 DVDs)" now and drink some Cabernet Sauvignon.

Bye ....

Condi

ATPballkid
01-20-2007, 10:10 PM
So, enough for today.

I'm going to watch a DVD from the "Golden Graf Wimbledon Victories Box (7 DVDs)" now and drink some Cabernet Sauvignon.

Bye ....

Condi

Other than Martina Navratilova past her prime and teen Monica Seles before her prime, tell me about the great grass court competition Steffi Graf had to face in her career at Wimbledon. What a joke.

Incidentally, it was Zina Garrison who beat Steffi Graf in the Wimbledon semis in 1990 before Navratilova beat Garrison in the final round.

Steffi Graf never reached Wimbledon finals in more than 3 years in a row.

Martina Navratilova won an all-time record 6 Wimbledons in a row and made the final round of Wimbledon a record 9 years in a row.

Steffi Graf never had more than 7 years consecutively when she got to the quarters or better. In fact, Graf only got past the 4th round of Wimbledon 10times in her entire career.

Martina Navratilova reached the quarters or better in 20 consecutive years at Wimbledon.

Bolster your credibility, son .... get out of your denial.

Condoleezza
01-21-2007, 12:45 AM
Other than Martina Navratilova past her prime and teen Monica Seles before her prime, tell me about the great grass court competition Steffi Graf had to face in her career at Wimbledon. What a joke.

Incidentally, it was Zina Garrison who beat Steffi Graf in the Wimbledon semis in 1990 before Navratilova beat Garrison in the final round.

Steffi Graf never reached Wimbledon finals in more than 3 years in a row.

Martina Navratilova won an all-time record 6 Wimbledons in a row and made the final round of Wimbledon a record 9 years in a row.

Steffi Graf never had more than 7 years consecutively when she got to the quarters or better. In fact, Graf only got past the 4th round of Wimbledon 10times in her entire career.

Martina Navratilova reached the quarters or better in 20 consecutive years at Wimbledon.

Bolster your credibility, son .... get out of your denial.


Wimbledon winning percentages (open era):

1. Graf 91.4 % (74-7)
2. Navratilova 89.6 % (120-14)
3. Sharapova 87.0 % (20-3)
4. S. Williams 86.8 % (33-5)
5. Evert 86.5 % (96-15)
6. V. Williams 86.3 % (44-7)
7. Goolagong 86.0 % (49-8 )

Condi

VikingSamurai
01-21-2007, 01:08 AM
Seriously. I think I am falling in love with Condi!.. You gotta love a woman with spirit!..

FiveO
01-21-2007, 06:49 AM
Wimbledon winning percentages (open era):

1. Graf 91.4 % (74-7)
2. Navratilova 89.6 % (120-14)
3. Sharapova 87.0 % (20-3)
4. S. Williams 86.8 % (33-5)
5. Evert 86.5 % (96-15)
6. V. Williams 86.3 % (44-7)
7. Goolagong 86.0 % (49-8 )

Condi

Graf played "only" 14 Wimbledons over 16 years.
Court played only 12 times in 15 years.
Evert played Wimbledon 18 years straight.
BJK played played Wimbledon 21 times over 23 years.

Navratilova played 23 Wimbledons over 31 years.

The numbers at Wimbledon spread over a minimum of 14 years played in succession:

1) Navratilova best 14 yrs....1977-1990 94.7 % (89-5)
2) Navratilova last 14 yrs.....1982-2004 92.1 % (82-7)
3) Navratilova first 14 yrs.....1973-1986 92.0 % (81-7)
4) Graf's only 14 yrs............1984-1999 91.4 % (74-7)
5) BJK best 14 yrs...............1962-1975 91.2 % (83-8 )
6) BJK first 14 yrs................1961-1974 89.5 % (77-9)
7) BJK last 14 yrs................1968-1983 88.2 % (75-10)
8 ) Evert's first/best 14 yrs....1972-1985 88 % (81-11)
9) Court's 12 yrs. over 15....1961-1975 87.3 % (62-9)
10) Evert's last 14 years........1976-1989 86.5 % (77-12)

Condoleezza
01-21-2007, 09:46 AM
Graf played "only" 14 Wimbledons over 16 years.
Court played only 12 times in 15 years.
Evert played Wimbledon 18 years straight.
BJK played played Wimbledon 21 times over 23 years.

Navratilova played 23 Wimbledons over 31 years.

The numbers at Wimbledon spread over a minimum of 14 years played in succession:

1) Navratilova best 14 yrs....1977-1990 94.7 % (89-5)
2) Navratilova last 14 yrs.....1982-2004 92.1 % (82-7)
3) Navratilova first 14 yrs.....1973-1986 92.0 % (81-7)
4) Graf's only 14 yrs............1984-1999 91.4 % (74-7)
....


If Graf had played some more Wimbledons (1997, 2000-2006) she would have more than just 7 singles titles.
You can't have it both ways ...

Condi

Rabbit
01-21-2007, 11:18 AM
But she didn't....you can't have it both ways.

Condoleezza
01-21-2007, 11:53 AM
But she didn't....you can't have it both ways.

FiveO tried to water down Graf's superior winning percentage at Wimbledon by suggesting that Navratilova only was worse because she played so many Wimbledons as a still-not-matured and as a old player.

Condi

slice bh compliment
01-21-2007, 12:21 PM
Zero wimbledon titles.

Rosewall, too.
How is he the player of the 60's? Laver won THE Grand Slam in 62 AND 69. I just do not see how anyone can top that one.

Someone mentioned Laver and Connors. Connors' curse (in terms of this thread) was that he kicked some *** in the 70s and and in the early 80's. Edge to Borg (70s) and Lendl (80s) there. Even Mac.

FiveO
01-21-2007, 12:50 PM
If Graf had played some more Wimbledons (1997, 2000-2006) she would have more than just 7 singles titles.
You can't have it both ways ...

Condi

I'm sorry, but no. You're extending Graf's best 14 and comparing it to Navratilova's 31.

Unfortunately, you're engaging in wishful thinking.

Condoleezza
01-21-2007, 01:10 PM
I'm sorry, but no. You're extending Graf's best 14 and comparing it to Navratilova's 31.

Unfortunately, you're engaging in wishful thinking.

No, I don't.
I like the reality.

Graf has 22 slams, Navratilova 18.
Graf has 8 years as year-end's #1, Navratilova 7.
Graf has 377 weeks as #1, Navratilova 331.
Graf has the Golden Grand Sam plus a non-calendar-year grand slam, Navratilova has a non-calendar-year grand-slam.

And I let Navratilova have a mixed doubles slam at age 47 ...


Condi

slice bh compliment
01-21-2007, 01:21 PM
Okay, folks. I tried. I tried to get it off the Graf/Seles thing.
I should have chosen something more engaging, I suppose.

Hey, Federer is a eunuch. You guys knew that right?

FedSampras
01-21-2007, 01:26 PM
Wimbledon winning percentages (open era):

1. Graf 91.4 % (74-7)
2. Navratilova 89.6 % (120-14)
3. Sharapova 87.0 % (20-3)
4. S. Williams 86.8 % (33-5)
5. Evert 86.5 % (96-15)
6. V. Williams 86.3 % (44-7)
7. Goolagong 86.0 % (49-8 )

Condi

More Fabricated stats eh?

Navratilova won her first W in 1978, her last in 1990, and made her last final in 1994, she made 12 finals (Graf made 9) and she made something like , what 9 STRAIGHT finals.... had something like 5 semifinals , and 3 quarters..., in fact I don't think MN lost earlier than the qtrs from 1975-1994, something like 20 years....she had more grasscourt titles by far,including Eastbourne,,,,and she never suffered the ignominy of losing early round matches to people like Lori McNeil and Natash Zyreva.... like Graff did.......even when Martina was approaching 38 or 39.....

there is absolutely no comparison, Martina N. comes up ahead of Graff, those picking Graff first would have to smoking the grass of Wimbledon :) ...

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 01:30 PM
FiveO tried to water down Graf's superior winning percentage at Wimbledon by suggesting that Navratilova only was worse because she played so many Wimbledons as a still-not-matured and as a old player.

Condi

LOL ... Graf's dominance over Navratilova on grass?

Seems that Navratilova was the only player to reach the final round of Wimbledon in the years 1985-1990.

Seems that Navratilova won Wimbledon in 1987 and 1990 and beat the player who had beaten Graf in the semis to win the 1990 singles title.

Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to win Wimbledon 6 consecutive years (Graf never even was able to reach more than 3 consecutive finals at Wimbledon).

Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to reach 9 consecutive Wimbledon finals (again, Graf managed to get to Wimbledon finals in 3 consecutive years).

Seems that Navratilova was the only player in the Open Era to reach the quarters or better at Wimbledon in a record 20 consecutive years (twice as many years as Graf).

There should be no question to any intelligent observer that Martina Navratilova is the best women's grass court player of the last 70 years.

There is nothing I can do for those that are less intelligent.

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 01:37 PM
No, I don't.
I like the reality.


And I let Navratilova have a mixed doubles slam at age 47 ...


Condi

I thought it mught be fun to see the differences between Graf and Navratilova in their 30s ... so here goes --- wait a minute ... Steffi did not even play in her 30s?

Navratilova had a winning rcord vs. Graf when Navratilova was in her mid to upper 30s between the years 1990-1993?

And in their ONLY match during the 1990s at a Grand Slam event, did the 30-something Navratilova actually beat Graf in that match?

And Graf did not even PLAY whatsoever in her 30s?

So how could Graf POSSIBLY be considered better?

And didn't a Graf fan stab the #1 ranked player in women's tennis, a teenager named Seles, in the back with a knife when the teenage Seles was #1 in women's tennis in the middle of Graf's career - even though Seles was only a teen?

With ALL this in mind, who in their right mind would say that Steffi Graf was the best player in women's tennis history?

Seriously.

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 01:42 PM
there is absolutely no comparison, Martina N. comes up ahead of Graff, those picking Graff first would have to smoking the grass of Wimbledon :) ...

LOL ... you are exactly right on this, Fedfan. Navratilova is the greatest player of all time in women's tennis -- her DOMINANCE in the 1980s during her prime ... her record vs. Graf in the 1990s when Navratilova was well past her prime and into her mid to late 30s ... her being the only player in tennis history to win 160 titles in both singles and doubles ... her being the only woman in tennis history to have the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Navratilova being better historically than Graf is so obvious. Graf had some pretty good results, though, for a couple of years in the late 1980s and then after the top player of the first half of the 1990s was stabbed in the back with a knife.

FiveO
01-21-2007, 01:54 PM
FiveO tried to water down Graf's superior winning percentage at Wimbledon by suggesting that Navratilova only was worse because she played so many Wimbledons as a still-not-matured and as a old player.

Condi


I admire your conviction. However I'm not watering down anything.

Graf did what she did. Navratilova did what she did. No extensions. No nothing.

Graf doesn't hold a candle to Navratilova at Wimbledon. You're assumption that she would have had she played more is just that---------an assumption.

MN actually put the numbers up.

Rabbit
01-21-2007, 02:55 PM
When it comes to Wimbledon and the ladies, the order is:

1. Martina Navratilova
2. Billie Jean King
3. Steffi Graf

We're talking Wimbledon alone here.

I realize full well that Billie Jean King doesn't hold as many singles titles at Wimbledon as Graf. However, her 20 total titles make her an icon at Wimbledon. If it was Boris Becker's living room, it was BJK's rec room. She won more titles there and as such, she deserves to be 2nd to MN. MN tied her with 20 titles I believe.

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 03:35 PM
And same with the fact that Seles's winning percentage in her best year ever (1992) was WORSE than Graf's winning percentage over a 11-year time span (1986-96). Almost no one knows that.


Those are 3 simply DEVASTATING stats for Seles whackos. The answer almost always are ad-hominem attacks towards me.
So what ....

:D :D :D

Condi

Steffi had a good couple of years against Navratilova .. she had a good 3 years against Chris Evert, too, after a slow start against Evert.

Of course, those years 1990-1993 until Seles was stabbed were a bit different. You know, when Seles was on that roll of winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the 1990 Tour Championships and the stabbing.

An aging Navratilova and a young, teenage Seles had winning records vs. Graf in those years.

Navratilova won her only match vs. Graf at a Grand Slam event in the 1990s ... and Seles was clearly the best player in women's tennis until a jealous Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a knife.

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 03:48 PM
ATP, you could write from here to eternity and Seles will NEVER have a Wimbledon title.

Yeah ... the difference is that one match at Wimbledon. Graf was still a better player on grass than Seles in 1992 because of Seles being young and inexperienced. Otherwise, in the years 1990-1993 Seles was clearly better. On surfaces other than grass, in the biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing ... yes, Seles won all of the biggest events (Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships not played on grass) by either beating Graf or players who had beaten Graf to get far enough in the tournaments to meet Seles.

As a teenager in the months from November 1990 through April 1993 there is no question that the best player in women's tennis was Monica Seles.

Hard to consider Graf the very best ever when you know the facts of how she came back to the top in 1993.

ATPballkid
01-21-2007, 03:54 PM
Those are 3 simply DEVASTATING stats for Seles whackos. The answer almost always are ad-hominem attacks towards me.
So what ....

:D :D :D

Condi

No ... that is jealous. The all-time greatest champion does not need knifes in the backs of better players who are in their teenage years while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in the sport over a 2 or 3 year period.

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles.

It was SELES who was dominant as a teenage phenom in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a Graf fan had had enough and stabbed her in the back with a knife.

Verbal_Kint
01-21-2007, 04:05 PM
No ... that is jealous. The all-time greatest champion does not need knifes in the backs of better players who are in their teenage years while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in the sport over a 2 or 3 year period.

Graf is ineligible for consideration as the all-time greatest in women's tennis due to the dominance of the teenage Seles.

It was SELES who was dominant as a teenage phenom in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a Graf fan had had enough and stabbed her in the back with a knife.

I'm not getting into the discussion, but STOP calling that guy a Graf FAN. Also, you sound like you're blaming Graf for it, which is of course completely ridiculous.

People that stab other people are not fans, they are PSYCHOS.

theace21
01-21-2007, 04:23 PM
why not Laver for the 1960's the man won 2 grand slams and 11 slams overall.

Yep, Laver easily. Shouldn't even be a discussion...

FedSampras
01-21-2007, 05:30 PM
I'm not getting into the discussion, but STOP calling that guy a Graf FAN. Also, you sound like you're blaming Graf for it, which is of course completely ridiculous.

People that stab other people are not fans, they are PSYCHOS.

ATP is right. Graff went from becoming a great player to "GOAT" status after Seles got stabbed by a GraFan. It took the stabbing of the NUMBER ONE Seles for the NUMBER 2 Graf to become #1 and thus regained top spot via default, not through her own play. In their peak years, Seles much >>>> than Graff.

justineheninhoogenbandfan
01-21-2007, 05:40 PM
If Graf had played some more Wimbledons (1997, 2000-2006) she would have more than just 7 singles titles.
You can't have it both ways ...

Condi

What is your evidence she would have won any of those Wimbledons? Why was she certain to win Wimbledon 1997 when Graf won only 1 of the 7 Grand Slams she entered from 97-99 and neither Wimbledon 1998 and Wimbledon 1999? What on earth makes you think an aging Graf would have been able to beat an overpowering Venus Williams in 2000 and 2001, and Serena Williams in 2002 and 2003. Of course after that the competition might have been a bit more feasible with the Williams not dominant anymore but Graf would be even older then the already old she would have been taking on the Williams at their peak.

Condoleezza
01-21-2007, 08:42 PM
Yeah ... the difference is that one match at Wimbledon. ....


No, the difference is seven Wimbledon titles.

Graf seven, Seles zero.


Condi

CEvertFan
04-13-2007, 11:41 PM
No, the difference is seven Wimbledon titles.

Graf seven, Seles zero.


Condi

Chances are Monica would have won at least one Wimbledon if she hadn't been stabbed in the back, but we'll never know will we?

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 12:47 AM
Chances are Monica would have won at least one Wimbledon if she hadn't been stabbed in the back, but we'll never know will we?


We can be quite sure that she never would have won Wimbledon.
She made the semis or better there only ONCE. In 1992 at the height of her abilities when she was destroyed by Graf in the finals with 6-2 6-1. This is an all-time record for the worst defeat a #1 player ever suffered in a slam final.

When she returned in 1995 she had decent results at AO (won 96, semis 99 & 02), FO (final in 98, semis 97 & 99) and USO (final in 95 & 96).
At Wimbledon she never even made the semis again.

She only beat two top-10 players in Wimbledon - a 35-year-old Navratilova in 1992 and an over-the-hill Sanchez in 2000.

No, among all top players of the last 40 years (winners of more than one slam) she was perhaps the worst grass courter imaginable.

No chance.


Condi

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:34 AM
No, the difference is seven Wimbledon titles.

Graf seven, Seles zero.


Condi

Imagine how many Grand Slam singles titles Navratilova or Evert could have won if someone would have stabbed the other one in the back with a knife.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:35 AM
We can be quite sure that she never would have won Wimbledon.
She made the semis or better there only ONCE. In 1992 at the height of her abilities when she was destroyed by Graf in the finals with 6-2 6-1. This is an all-time record for the worst defeat a #1 player ever suffered in a slam final.


Condi

Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, son?

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:37 AM
No, among all top players of the last 40 years (winners of more than one slam) she was perhaps the worst grass courter imaginable.




Condi

1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
.................................................. ........... Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION

Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.

The ONLY way for Graf to have retaken #1 from Seles was death of Seles or a career-ending injury, stabbing, accident or terminal and career-ending illness.

Enter Gunther Parche.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:39 AM
When she returned in 1995 she had decent results at AO (won 96, semis 99 & 02), FO (final in 98, semis 97 & 99) and USO (final in 95 & 96).
At Wimbledon she never even made the semis again.

No chance.


Condi

Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:43 AM
She only beat two top-10 players in Wimbledon - a 35-year-old Navratilova in 1992 and an over-the-hill Sanchez in 2000.


Condi

SO WE LOOK AT THE 12 BIGGEST SINGLES TITLES IN WOMEN'S TENNIS DURING THE 30 MONTHS BEFORE THE STABBING:

1990 1991 1992 1993 1994


1990 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1991 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1991 French Open MONICA SELES

1991 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1991 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1991 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1992 Australian Open MONICA SELES
1992 French Open MONICA SELES

1992 Wimbledon STEFFI GRAF

1992 U.S. Open MONICA SELES
1992 WTA Championships MONICA SELES
1993 Australian Open MONICA SELES


Seles was just a teenager when she was stabbed ... however, she was the 3-time defending champion of the Australian Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the French Open ... the 3-time defending champion of the WTA Tour Championships ... and, 2-time defending champion of the U.S. Open.

In fact, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 --- although Martina Navratilova in her prime 10 years earlier managed to match that 10 of the 12 biggest singles titles played consecutively.

Monica Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in 1990 ... 1991 ... 1992 ... and the ONLY player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before she was stabbed in 1993 by a Steffi Graf fan.

Of course, then we had the stabbing of Monica Seles by a jealous Steffi Graf fan.

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 07:48 AM
Imagine how many Grand Slam singles titles Navratilova or Evert could have won if someone would have stabbed the other one in the back with a knife.

I don't think so.
First of all Navratilova or Evert would have been back on court within 6 weeks.

And even if Navratilova had been out for 2.25 years (eg. beginning pre-Wimbledon-83, when Navi's best slam streak started) Evert would have avoided losses against Navratilova only on 5 occasions. Considering that Evert lost about 30 % of her slams finals against non-Navi players she most probably would have won 3 of those 5 slams without Navi in the field.

So Evert would have had 3 slams more.

But here is the big difference between Navi/Evert and Seles/Graf:
We all know that #1 Seles lost more than 70 % of her matches against Graf but #1 Navratilova only 20 % of her matches against Evert.

So if Graf had played in 5 slams against Seles in that 93-95 time frame she would have won about 3 times at least anyway. And one of her two losses would have occured in slams she lost anyway (even without Seles in the field).

So Graf would have had 1 slam less.

Big deal!
I don't understand why you always get wet between you legs because of this ...


Condi

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:53 AM
Big deal!
I don't understand why you always get wet between you legs because of this ...


Condi

Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY.

Some players have all 3 ... some have 2 of the 3 ... and some have to rely on a fan stabbing another player to even have 2 of the 3.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 07:55 AM
I don't think so.
First of all Navratilova or Evert would have been back on court within 6 weeks.


Condi

There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Of course, Navratilova was the female player of the decade for the 1980s ... Monica Seles was well on her way to being the female player of the 1990s until a Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife.

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 07:57 AM
....In fact, no player in women's tennis history has won more than the 10 out of 12 major singles titles that Monica Seles won in those 30 months before being stabbed in April 1990 ...


Graf won 10 of 12 major singles titles from November 1987 until January 1990.
But she was far more dominant than Seles.
She won ALL Wimbledon titles in that period. Seles won ZERO in her 30 months.
She was 4-0 H2H against the #2 player (Navi). Seles was 1-3 (against Graf).

And - she didn't profit big-time from a nasty scandal in her main opponents family. Seles did.


Condi

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:01 AM
There is essentially no way that Steffi Graf would have been the top women's tennis player of the 1990s without a fan of hers stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife. ....

She would have been the top player anyway.

Don't forget that #1 Seles lost 5 of 7 matches against Graf.
And that Seles's winning percentage in her best year ever (1992) was LOWER :D :D :D :D than Graf's winning percentage in a 11-year time span.
Those two facts a solid proof that Graf was the far superior player.

IMO, Seles is in the Sanchez, Hingis, Davenport mould of greats. She only won so many slams because her main opponent was derailed by a nasty family scandal for 2 years. As a matter of fact Hingis is better than Seles, beating Monica in 15 of 20 matches (while Graf beat Hingis in 7 of 9 matches).

No, Seles most probably is the most overrated player of recent history.
Profited a lot from fortunate circumstances.


Condi

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:07 AM
Don't forget that there are 3 components to greatness in tennis --- DOMINANCE ... CONSISTENCY ... LONGEVITY. ....


Yes, Graf excelled in all three.

She won 3+ slams in 5 years (1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996), beat the #1 player in slams in 1987 (Navi), in 1992 (Seles), 1995 (Sanchez) and 1999 (Hingis), won at least 7 tournaments in 11 consecutive years (1986-96), was #1 or #2 for more than 530 weeks in a row (March 1987 until June 1997).

No wonder most fans and experts call her the greatest female tennis player of all time.

Just imagine what she could have achieved if she hadn't distracted by all these crazy family troubles and tons of injuries. She could have won 30+ slams otherwise!
Well, sadly it was not meant to be ...


Condi

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:07 AM
Graf won 10 of 12 major singles titles from November 1987 until January 1990.
But she was far more dominant than Seles.

Condi

1. Did Evert ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events in women's tennis played consecutively? NO

2. Did Graf ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events in women's tennis played consecutively? NO

3. Did Navratilova ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events in women's tennis played consecutively?

YES --- Navratilova matched Seles with 10 out of the 12 biggest Grand Slam singles titles between Wimbledon 1983 and 1985 Wimbledon.

1983:
Won Wimbledon ... U.S. Open ... Australian Open

1984:
Won WTA Championships .. French .. Wimbledon .. U.S. Open
Lost in the semis of the Australian

1985:
Won WTA Championships .. Wimbledon
Lost in the final round of the French Open.


4. Did any player in women's tennis history OTHER THAN MONICA SELES AND MARTINA NAVRATILOVA ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events played consecutively? NO

ANSWERS: ................ No, No, YES, No

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:11 AM
....

2. Did Graf ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events in women's tennis played consecutively? ....

She even won 11 of the 13 biggest between November 1987 and January 1990.

YEC 1987
AO 1988
FO 1988
Wim 1988
USO 1988
Olympics 1988
(no YEC 1988 )
AO 1989
(no FO 1989)
Wim 1989
USO 1989
YEC 1989
AO 1990

11 of 13

With two Wimbledons among them.

And a Golden Grand Slam.


Wow, what a girl!!!

As always Seles and Navratilova are second fiddle only ....



Condi

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:14 AM
4. Did any player in women's tennis history OTHER THAN MONICA SELES AND MARTINA NAVRATILOVA ever win 10 of the 12 biggest singles events played consecutively? NO
....

But yes, Graf did it!
She was even better, winning 11 of 13!
With 2 Wimbledons and 1 Golden Grand Slam.

You can take what you want - Graf always was far better than Seles.

Seles is a typical 2nd-tier great. Quite interesting in her time but forgotten 10 years later. In 50 years she will be a footnote in tennis history books, maximum ...

Condi

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:25 AM
Yes, Graf excelled in all three.


Condi


There is no other reason for a German to stab Seles in the back with a knife if Seles did not have the better record in the first 3 or 4 years of the 1990s than Graf ... in addition to leading Graf head-to-head in the 1990s before the stabbing, Seles had dominated the major events other than Wimbledon.

Graf was #2 for the 1980s and #2 for the 1990s ..

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:28 AM
She would have been the top player anyway.



Condi


What LED To The Stabbing?


Seles won more major titles in the 3 year period (12 for Seles vs. only 2 for Graf).


CLAY COURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on clay:

1990 French Open
1991 French Open
1992 French Open


INDOOR: MONICA SELES.

Seles won the biggest indoor event in 1990, 1991 and 1992:

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Tour Championships


HARDCOURTS: MONICA SELES.

Seles was the better player on hardcourts because she won the 2 biggest events on hardcourts 5 straight times:

1991 Australian
1991 U.S. Open
1992 Australian
1992 U.S. Open
1993 Australian


GRASS COURTS: STEFFI GRAF.


Graf won Wimbledon in 1991 and 1992 when Seles did not play the event in 1991 and she made the final round of 1992 ... so Graf has the better record on grass.

HARDCOURTS: SELES
INDOORS: SELES
CLAY: SELES
GRASS: GRAF



CUMULATIVE May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 201-16 (92.63%) ... 29 titles.
Graf: 200-22 (88.50%) ... 24 titles.



BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles


#1 Ranking


Monica Seles Mar 11, 1991 - Aug 04, 1991 (21 weeks)
Steffi Graf Aug 05, 1991 - Aug 11, 1991 (1 week)
Monica Seles Aug 12, 1991 - Aug 18, 1991 (1 week)
Steffi Graf Aug 19, 1991 - Sep 08, 1991 (3 weeks)
Monica Seles Sep 09, 1991 - Jun 06, 1993 (91 weeks)

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:28 AM
There is no other reason for a German to stab Seles in the back with a knife ...

Well, maybe this Parche guy was ********?
Or a lunatic?

Could have been, no?


Condi

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 08:31 AM
...BY SURFACE:


Hardcourts May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 98-8 match record (92.45%) .. 13 titles
Graf: 66-9 match record (88.00%) .. 5 titles



Clay May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 57-4 match record (93.44%) .. 8 titles
Graf: 58-7 match record (89.23%) .. 5 titles



Grass May 1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 10-2 match record (83.33%) .. no titles
Graf: 19-1 match record (95.00%) .. 2 titles



Indoor Carpet May1990 - April 1993 until stabbing:

Seles: 36-2 match record (94.74%) ... 8 titles
Graf: 57-5 match record (91.94%) ... 12 titles




Looks very equal on all surfaces except on grass where Graf truly was dominant.
Graf won more titles on grass and indoor carpet, Seles more on clay and hard-courts.

Same happened in 1994/95 with Graf and Sanchez ....



Condi

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:34 AM
Could have been, no?


Condi

The stabbing was over the #1 ranking and the fact that Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest singles titles in women's tennis over a sustained 2.5 year period with no end in sight ... Seles was the ONLY player in women's tennis to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in 1990 ... then, she was the ONLY player, obviously, to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in 1991 and she was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in 1992 ... and, she was the only player to win a Grand Slam singles title in 1993 before the stabbing took place. Seles had relegated Graf to only winning the singles title at Wimbledon among the biggest events in women's tennis -- but even then, Graf lost in the first round of Wimbledon the year after the stabbing (1994) when an aging Navratilova closing in on 38 years of age made it 6 rounds further than Graf in her loss to Conchita Martinez in the final of Wimbledon.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:36 AM
D than Graf's winning percentage in a 11-year time span.
Those two facts a solid proof that Graf was the far superior player.


Condi


Seles won more of her first 10 matches vs. Graf than Graf had won in her first 10 matches against Navratilova.

More than that, Navratilova was already into their 30s when she had played Graf 10 times .. Navratilova (32) was OLDER than Graf was -- in fact Graf had retired by the time Graf was the age of Navratilova at their 10th match.

Graf had ranked #1 for as many weeks as Seles by the time Graf had played 10 singles matches vs. Navratilova.

When Graf was the age that Seles was when Seles was stabbed in April 1993 (19 years, 5 months) Graf had won just 5 Grand Slam singles titles and 1 WTA Tour Championship:

ACCOMPLISHMENTS BY THE TIME THEY WERE STABBED
(or of an age Graf fans feel is acceptable for a stabbing)

19 years, 5 months:

Seles .. 11 major singles titles
Graf .... 6 major singles titles

Seles: 3 French, 3 Australian, 3 WTA and 2 U.S. Opens.
Graf: 2 French and once each at the 4 other big events.

Seles was 4-6 vs. Graf.
Graf was 3-7 vs. Navratilova.

Seles had won 2 major titles in 1990 .. 4 major titles in 1991 .. 4 major titles in 1992 .. and the only major title in 1993 when she was stabbed.

Graf had won 0 major titles in 1985 .. 0 major titles in 1986 .. 2 major titles in 1987 .. and 4 major titles in 1988 when she was the age Seles was when Seles was stabbed.

ATPballkid
04-14-2007, 08:42 AM
Looks very equal on all surfaces except on grass where Graf truly was dominant.
Graf won more titles on grass and indoor carpet, Seles more on clay and hard-courts.

Same happened in 1994/95 with Graf and Sanchez ....



Condi

Seles came on to win 11 out of 15 of the major singles titles in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing ... and someone needed to open the door back up for Graf ... Gunther Parche did that.

CEvertFan
04-14-2007, 09:03 AM
1880s - Renshaw / Sears -- Bingley Hillyard
1890s - R. Doherty / Wrenn-- Dod / Atkinson
1900s - L. Doherty / Larned -- Douglass Chambers
1910s - Wilding -- Douglass Chambers / Mallory
1920s - Tilden -- Lenglen
1930s - Budge -- Wills Moody
1940s - Kramer -- Brough
1950s - Gonzales -- Connolly
1960s - Rosewall -- Court
1970s - Borg -- Evert
1980s - Lendl -- Navratilova
1990s - Sampras -- Seles until she was stabbed
2000s - Federer projected -- Henin-Hardenne/Sharapova projected

Tennis was not so much an international sport before the 1920s and 1930s (really became an international sport in 1925). Therefore, it is harder to have a best player of the sport for those earlier years -- except you have to go with Wilding in the 1910s.

There are some very good players --- Cochet, Lacoste, Perry, Vines, Crawford, Hoad, Laver, Newcombe, Connors, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Wilander and Agassi among the men and Jacobs, Marble, du Pont, Hart, Fry, Hard, Gibson, Bueno, King, Goolagong, Graf and Hingis among the women --- who just were not quite good enough to be considered the best players of their decades.

Things look great for Roger Federer and Justine Henin-Hardenne or Maria Sharapova as Players of the Decade for the 2000s. Going to be hard to take a position against them based on what they have accomplished already and what they are likely to accomplish over the years remaining between 2007 and 2010.



I wouldn't change a thing except for taking out Rosewall and putting in Laver for the men's player of the 60's. TWO Grand Slams definitely qualify him for that spot.

Q&M son
04-19-2008, 02:00 PM
For me (only men):

1960: 1) Laver 2) Rosewall
1970: 1) Borg 2) Connors
1980: 1) Lendl 2) McEnroe
1990: 1) Sampras 2) Agassi
2000: 1) Federer 2) ???

llgc8080
04-20-2008, 12:08 PM
Other similar thread is http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=136097