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Condoleezza
06-10-2006, 10:13 AM
Wow, what a win for Justine today!
She is just 24 years old and has 5 slam titles already.

In the open era the slam win rankings looks like this now:

1. Graf 22
2. Evert 18 (16 final losses)
3. Navratilova 18 (14)
4. Court 11
5. Seles 9
6. King 8
7. S. Williams 7
8. Hingis 5 (7)
9. V. Williams 5 (6)
10. Henin-Hardenne 5 (2)

Top ten already!

What do you think - how far can she go?
I think she will surpass Serena at least, has even a shot #5 perhaps!:D

Condi

Max G.
06-10-2006, 02:53 PM
Wow, that's pretty good! Didn't realize she was that high already.

I'm not going to make any predictions about her total though. She's so physically fragile - you never know when the next injury or illness is going to knock her out for even longer.

Moose Malloy
06-10-2006, 03:12 PM
So why did you post the amount of final losses of Evert & Navratilova, but not Graf or Seles?

federerhoogenbandfan
06-10-2006, 03:34 PM
Justine will probably end up with the most slams of the current group of women. Serena does not seem too interested in pursuing her tennis career with much urgency anymore, she will probably still pull out 1 or 2 slams somewhere being 24 now(Henin just turned 24 herself)but that is it. Venus and Henin are tied now. Venus does seem to show a bit more enthusiasm and willingness to stay/return to the top and pursue slam titles, but since Henin is 18 months younger and has more chance on clay, and similar on hard courts now, I think she will probably end up with more slams then Venus as well. Hingis it is great to see a contender again, and she is tied with Justine in slams now, she might have more slams in her, but likely not as many more as Justine.

Condoleezza
06-26-2006, 11:52 AM
As there is raaaaaaaaaaain in Wimbledon German DSF showed a replay of the Steffi-Arantxa Wimbledon final of 1995, the last two games. With the famous "11th game".

Graceful, slicing, forehand-whacking Steffi with those un-be-lie-va-ble legs vs. scurrying, retrieving and fighting Arantxa with her endearing smile. And at the end the victory ceremony with DSF playing the emotional "Dances With Wolves" title theme in the background ....

Ah, those were the days ......


Condi


Back to World Cup!!!

Shabazza
06-26-2006, 01:43 PM
yep it was a nice reminder - they even showed some of 1982 Connors vs JMac final...
btw. where are you from, if you get DSF?

HollerOne5
06-26-2006, 02:01 PM
Must Be Nice!!! ESPN2 showed the 2005 final between Federer and Roddick not only once, but TWICE!!! Because I mean it was such an entertaining match and all. Also the 2005 Ladies final, which was a bit better, but seriously, they will need to do better than that if the rain continues.

Condoleezza
06-27-2006, 12:43 AM
yep it was a nice reminder - they even showed some of 1982 Connors vs JMac final...
btw. where are you from, if you get DSF?


DSF is "Deutsches Sport-Fernsehen" (German Sports TV)
Now take a guess ..... ;)

Condi

Condoleezza
09-24-2006, 05:55 AM
1 Steffi Graf 86-2 0.977 1989
2 Steffi Graf 75-2 0.974 1987
3 Steffi Graf 72-3 0.96 1988
4 Steffi Graf 47-2 0.959 1995
5 Martina Hingis 75-5 0.937 1997
6 Steffi Graf 72-5 0.935 1990
7 Monica Seles 70-5 0.933 1992
8 Steffi Graf 54-4 0.931 1996
9 Steffi Graf 76-6 0.927 1993
10 S. Williams 38-3 0.927 2003


Quite interesting that even Graf's 5th-best year (1990) was better than Seles's best. And that Graf's 7th-best year (1993) was better than Seles's 2nd-best one (1991). IMO this is further proof how extremely Seles is overrated in some circles (U.S. especially).
Stats don't lie, though ...

Condi

Condoleezza
10-29-2006, 07:42 AM
MOST IMPRESSIVE SEASONS (85%+ wins) IN WTA TENNIS


1 . 1983. (99% 86-1) Martina Navratilova (USA)
2 . 1989. (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
3 . 1984. (98% 78-2) Martina Navratilova (USA)
4 . 1987. (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
5 . 1982. (97% 90-3) Martina Navratilova (USA)
6 . 1986. (97% 89-3) Martina Navratilova (USA)
7 . 1988. (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
8 . 1995. (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
9 . 1977. (95% 62-3) Chris Evert (USA)
10. 1985. (94% 84-5) Martina Navratilova (USA)
11. 1997. (94% 75-5) Martina Hingis (SUI)
12. 1990. (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
13. 1992. (93% 70-5) Monica Seles (USA)
14. 1996. (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)
15. 1978. (93% 53-4) Chris Evert (USA)
16. 2003. (93% 38-3) Serena Williams (USA)
16. 1993. (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
18. 1991. (93% 74-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
19. 1982. (92% 69-6) Chris Evert (USA)
20. 1981. (92% 68-6) Chris Evert (USA)
21. 2002. (92% 56-5) Serena Williams (USA)
22. 1986. (91% 64-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
23. 1989. (91% 73-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
24. 2000. (91% 41-4) Venus Williams (USA)
25. 1992. (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
26. 1988. (91% 70-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
27. 1985. (91% 79-8) Chris Evert (USA)
28. 1980. (91% 68-7) Chris Evert (USA)
29. 1994. (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
30. 2001. (90% 46-5) Venus Williams (USA)

Quite interesting how Navratilova and Graf are superior to the likes of Seles (only #13 & #18), Serena (only #16 & #21) and Venus (only #24 & #30).

Navratilova and Graf both had FIVE better seasons than Seles's best, Graf SIX better seasons than Serena (Navratilova 5 better ones).
Graf had EIGHT, Navratilova six better seasons than Venus Williams.

Evert in the 70ies was worse than Navratilova and Graf in the 80ies. Evert still has 4 better seasons than Venus's best.

Graf won 93.6 % of her matches in 1986-96 (ELEVEN years).
Seles and the Williams sisters didn't even have ONE single season with a winning percentage like that.

ATPballkid
10-29-2006, 09:30 AM
And Navratilova NEVER had a losing record in her career vs. Graf. In fact, long after Navratilova had passed her prime she had a winning record -- as did Seles -- in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until a jealous Graf fan took matters into his own hands and did something Graf could not do on her own --- he got Graf a #1 ranking by literally stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a sharp knife.

Gunther / Graf was the best comibination in the history of women's tennis singles.

ATPballkid
10-29-2006, 09:33 AM
MOST IMPRESSIVE SEASONS (85%+ wins) IN WTA TENNIS


1 . 1983. (99% 86-1) Martina Navratilova (USA)
2 . 1989. (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
3 . 1984. (98% 78-2) Martina Navratilova (USA)
4 . 1987. (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
5 . 1982. (97% 90-3) Martina Navratilova (USA)
6 . 1986. (97% 89-3) Martina Navratilova (USA)
7 . 1988. (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
8 . 1995. (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
9 . 1977. (95% 62-3) Chris Evert (USA)
10. 1985. (94% 84-5) Martina Navratilova (USA)
11. 1997. (94% 75-5) Martina Hingis (SUI)
12. 1990. (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
13. 1992. (93% 70-5) Monica Seles (USA)
14. 1996. (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)
15. 1978. (93% 53-4) Chris Evert (USA)
16. 2003. (93% 38-3) Serena Williams (USA)
16. 1993. (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
18. 1991. (93% 74-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
19. 1982. (92% 69-6) Chris Evert (USA)
20. 1981. (92% 68-6) Chris Evert (USA)
21. 2002. (92% 56-5) Serena Williams (USA)
22. 1986. (91% 64-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
23. 1989. (91% 73-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
24. 2000. (91% 41-4) Venus Williams (USA)
25. 1992. (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
26. 1988. (91% 70-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
27. 1985. (91% 79-8) Chris Evert (USA)
28. 1980. (91% 68-7) Chris Evert (USA)
29. 1994. (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
30. 2001. (90% 46-5) Venus Williams (USA)

Quite interesting how Navratilova and Graf are superior to the likes of Seles (only #13 & #18), Serena (only #16 & #21) and Venus (only #24 & #30).

Navratilova and Graf both had FIVE better seasons than Seles's best, Graf SIX better seasons than Serena (Navratilova 5 better ones).
Graf had EIGHT, Navratilova six better seasons than Venus Williams.

Evert in the 70ies was worse than Navratilova and Graf in the 80ies. Evert still has 4 better seasons than Venus's best.

Graf won 93.6 % of her matches in 1986-96 (ELEVEN years).
Seles and the Williams sisters didn't even have ONE single season with a winning percentage like that.


Can Navratilova say that Evert was stabbed in the back with a knife in order for her to win an all-time record number of singles titles and doubles titles on the WTA Tour? I think the years Navratilova was most dominant she had a winning percentage which was better than the best winning percentage Graf ever had from any one year ... and Martina was able to do this without her arch-rivals being stabbed in the back with a knife.

Name any of the 5 major events -- the 4 Grand Slams and the WTA Tour Championships -- where Graf has the all-time record for most singles or doubles titles won there.

I don't think you can ... even with the help she got from Gunther Parche.

Warriorroger
10-29-2006, 10:11 AM
ATP Ball kid: a coward:
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Condoleezza
10-29-2006, 10:12 AM
<blubb, blubb>


Graf won 93.6 % of her matches in 1986-96 (ELEVEN years).
Seles didn't even have ONE single season with a winning percentage like that.
:D :D :D

Condi

ATPballkid
10-29-2006, 10:17 AM
ATP Ball kid: a coward:
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In the middle of Graf's career, a young teenager by the name of Monica Seles came in and dominated women's tennis by winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993. Then, a COWARD jealous Graf fan decided to stab Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Warriorroger AKA Condoleezza AKA Gunther Parche himself?

mariarulez
10-29-2006, 11:16 AM
true, but i think the womens game today is better than ever. just ask martina hingis. not sure if martina n. or chrissy could hang with crop.

Condoleezza
10-29-2006, 11:21 AM
In the middle of Graf's career, a young teenager by the name of Monica Seles came in and dominated women's tennis by winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the early part of 1993. Then, a COWARD jealous Graf fan decided to stab Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Warriorroger AKA Condoleezza AKA Gunther Parche himself?


Graf won 93.6 % of her matches in 1986-96 (ELEVEN years).
Seles didn't even have ONE single season with a winning percentage like that.
Enough said about domination .....
:D :D :D

Condi

FedSampras
10-29-2006, 11:38 AM
There is no doubt a giant asterisk (knife?) should be placed next to Graf's records. Seles could have easily had 18 GS titles and Graf ended up with much less if not for her stabbing by a Graf fan. Graf is definitley not the GOAT. There are players like Navaratilova, Evert, Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, who accomplished a lot without their main rival being stabbed by one of their fans.

Condoleezza
10-29-2006, 01:01 PM
Excerpts from tennis articles on Steffi Graf's retirement in 1999:

"Vividly etched in the mind's eye was the picture, as Andre Agassi said
four days ago, of "the best lady that has ever played". That, as much as
her tennis, was what epitomised Steffi Graf- grace, dignity and style."

"Oncourt, with all her fluid movement and athletic grace, she was a lithe gazelle who not only attracted our attention, but grabbed the eye of the editors at Vogue, who featured her in a who’s-that-supermodel? fashion spread."

"For the purists she was a sheer joy to behold, one who gave tennis a new aura and dimension, as an art that not merely demanded imagination but was something with incredible capacity for improvisation. She lifted the whole aspect to a different plane."

"Steffi Graf, a woman of both talent and grace, bewitched us 13-years
ago."

"Steffi Graf – a legend, a champion, a professional, and a winner. With her lethal  forehand, her troublesome slice backhand, her  devastating serve, Steffi could blow away any  opponent on the court. With her champion’s mettle, her undeniable heart, and sheer will to  win, she could win any major championship in any   given era against many different players. While  we are sad to see her depart the tour, we will   long remember the player who gave us such  excitement, such passion and such joy in  watching her play. "

"Graf walks away from tennis with the same grace with which she played."

"And more than anyone this side of Chris Evert, Graf did her spanking with a dignity and class that Venus Williams, Martina Hingis, Monica Seles and Martina Navratilova would beg to have. "


What do you think: When will there be a female tennis player again who will be praised like that when she retires? Will we live long enough to see it?

Condi

Condoleezza
11-01-2006, 01:35 AM
true, but i think the womens game today is better than ever. just ask martina hingis. not sure if martina n. or chrissy could hang with crop.


Graf leads Hingis 7-2 H2H.
Navratilova returned to the game in 2002 (as a 45-year-old) and beat #20 Tatjana Panova.
Graf only lost in the tie-break against #16 Likhovtseva in 2005 at WTT.
Brenda Schultz-McCarthy (35) hopped off the couch as well and broke the serve-speed record this year (130 mph).

I don't know where you get this stuff from that the women's game of today is better than ever. Only difference is the girls of today have huge rackets which enable them to bash the ball at maximum speed.

Give peak Navratilova and Graf today's rackets and they would whip Mauresmo & Co.
Hey, give Graf only her old racket ......:D

Condi

Condoleezza
11-01-2006, 01:37 AM
There is no doubt a giant asterisk (knife?) should be placed next to Graf's records. Seles could have easily had 18 GS titles and Graf ended up with much less if not for her stabbing by a Graf fan. Graf is definitley not the GOAT. There are players like Navaratilova, Evert, Billie Jean King, Margaret Court, who accomplished a lot without their main rival being stabbed by one of their fans.


I don't know how Seles could have won 18 slams.

Or do you think without the stabbing her dad would not have died of cancer and Monica would not have become fat???:confused:

Condi

Condoleezza
11-12-2006, 11:05 AM
MOST IMPRESSIVE SEASONS IN WTA TENNIS 1987 - 2006

1 . 1989 (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
2 . 1987 (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
3 . 1988 (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
4 . 1995 (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
5 . 1997 (94% 75-5) Martina Hingis (SUI)
6 . 1990 (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
7 . 1992 (93% 70-5) Monica Seles (USA)
8 . 1996 (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)
9 . 2003 (93% 38-3) Serena Williams (USA)
10. 1993 (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
11. 1991 (93% 74-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
12. 2002 (92% 56-5) Serena Williams (USA)
13. 1989 (91% 73-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
14. 2000 (91% 41-4) Venus Williams (USA)
15. 1992 (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
16. 1988 (91% 70-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
17. 1994 (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
18. 2001 (90% 46-5) Venus Williams (USA)
19. 1990 (90% 54-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
20. 2004 (90% 35-4) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
21. 1994 (90% 77-9) Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP)
22. 1991 (89% 65-8 ) Steffi Graf (GER)
23. 2000 (89% 77-10) Martina Hingis (SUI)
24. 2005 (88% 67-9) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
25. 2003 (88% 90-12) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
26. 2006 (88 % 60-8 ) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
27. 1990 (88% 52-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
28. 2004 (88% 63-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
29. 1987 (88% 56-8 ) Martina Navratilova (USA)
30. 2001 (87% 62-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
31. 2002 (87% 62-9) Venus Williams (USA)
32. 2003 (87% 75-11) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
33. 2005 (87% 34-5) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
34. 2006 (87% 59-9) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
35. 1995 (86% 63-10) Conchita Martinez (ESP)
36. 1999 (86% 61-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
37. 2001 (86% 60-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
38. 1991 (85% 53-9) Martina Navratilova (USA)
39. 2005 (85% 41-7) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
40. 1999 (85% 41-7) Serena Williams (USA)

Exactly 20 of 40 of those impressive seasons are from the last decade (1997-2006). So obviously it wasn't more difficult to be successful in today's tennis than it was in the decade before that (1987-96).

If it weren't for Graf we would be saying today that the field had more depth in 1987-96 than in 1997-2006 ...

Condi

rommil
11-12-2006, 11:23 AM
MOST IMPRESSIVE SEASONS IN WTA TENNIS 1987 - 2006

1 . 1989 (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
2 . 1987 (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
3 . 1988 (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
4 . 1995 (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
5 . 1997 (94% 75-5) Martina Hingis (SUI)
6 . 1990 (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
7 . 1992 (93% 70-5) Monica Seles (USA)
8 . 1996 (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)
9 . 2003 (93% 38-3) Serena Williams (USA)
10. 1993 (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
11. 1991 (93% 74-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
12. 2002 (92% 56-5) Serena Williams (USA)
13. 1989 (91% 73-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
14. 2000 (91% 41-4) Venus Williams (USA)
15. 1992 (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
16. 1988 (91% 70-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
17. 1994 (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
18. 2001 (90% 46-5) Venus Williams (USA)
19. 1990 (90% 54-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
20. 2004 (90% 35-4) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
21. 1994 (90% 77-9) Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP)
22. 1991 (89% 65-8 ) Steffi Graf (GER)
23. 2000 (89% 77-10) Martina Hingis (SUI)
24. 2005 (88% 67-9) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
25. 2003 (88% 90-12) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
26. 2006 (88 % 60-8 ) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
27. 1990 (88% 52-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
28. 2004 (88% 63-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
29. 1987 (88% 56-8 ) Martina Navratilova (USA)
30. 2001 (87% 62-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
31. 2002 (87% 62-9) Venus Williams (USA)
32. 2003 (87% 75-11) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
33. 2005 (87% 34-5) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
34. 2006 (87% 59-9) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
35. 1995 (86% 63-10) Conchita Martinez (ESP)
36. 1999 (86% 61-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
37. 2001 (86% 60-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
38. 1991 (85% 53-9) Martina Navratilova (USA)
39. 2005 (85% 41-7) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
40. 1999 (85% 41-7) Serena Williams (USA)

Exactly 20 of 40 of those impressive seasons are from the last decade (1997-2006). So obviously it wasn't more difficult to be successful in today's tennis than it was in the decade before that (1987-96).

If it weren't for Graf we would be saying today that the field had more depth in 1987-96 than in 1997-2006 ...

Condi

Thought this would be another Graf droolfest. Move on man/woman or whatever you are. Graf is the greatest player record wise but can barely hit a passing shot from the backhand side. Now think how that would translate in today's game.

Grimjack
11-12-2006, 11:28 AM
Each era only has so many players who will achieve greatness. That's a simple matter of statistics.

That said, "highest winning percentage" does not equal "most impressive," unless you are playing in an era when the best player in your sport HASN'T been stabbed in the back and rendered ineffective by a lunatic fan. So erase about half of the Graf "most impressive seasons" from the record, please.

Condoleezza
11-12-2006, 11:32 AM
Thought this would be another Graf droolfest. Move on man/woman or whatever you are. Graf is the greatest player record wise but can barely hit a passing shot from the backhand side. ....

Ask Martina Navratilova.

Graf beat her at Wimbledon 5-7 6-2 6-1 and 6-2 6-7 6-1.
Navratilova hit 85 % of her shots to Graf's backhand.
And attacked the net all day long.

Hmm, what did Graf do?
Wanna take a guess, boy ...... ? :-D :-D :-D

Condi

Condoleezza
11-12-2006, 11:38 AM
Each era only has so many players who will achieve greatness. That's a simple matter of statistics.

That said, "highest winning percentage" does not equal "most impressive," unless you are playing in an era when the best player in your sport HASN'T been stabbed in the back and rendered ineffective by a lunatic fan. So erase about half of the Graf "most impressive seasons" from the record, please.


Graf is there with 10 seasons.
1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992 are pre-stabbing.
6 seasons (= 60 %).

1996 was post-stabbing but Seles played again.

So only 3 seasons (1993, 1994, 1995 = 30 %) are affected by the Seles stabbing.
And you want to suggest that Graf would have lost so many matches to Seles that she would not have win/loss records in those 3 years that would have made this list ??

What makes you think so?
That Seles won 1 of 4 matches against Graf in 1991/92 (Seles's two best seasons)?

Hopefully you don't earn your money in a job where you need your brain ..... :-D :grin: :smile:

Condi

rommil
11-12-2006, 05:05 PM
Ask Martina Navratilova.

Graf beat her at Wimbledon 5-7 6-2 6-1 and 6-2 6-7 6-1.
Navratilova hit 85 % of her shots to Graf's backhand.
And attacked the net all day long.

Hmm, what did Graf do?
Wanna take a guess, boy ...... ? :-D :-D :-D

Condi

Ahhh Graf hit a slice backhand? Dude Graf has already retired and that's all you talk about. You are probably one of those types where you watch old tapes of Graf(the ones that she won anyways) over and over again. It's the year 2006, move on.

AndrewD
11-12-2006, 11:39 PM
Here's some plain info on the success rates of 5 of the most successful female players of all time (singles only). Years when players were off the tour haven't been included.

Margaret Court
14 years played
4 times not making at least quarter final
46 tournaments played
23 titles won
50% success rate

Chris Evert
19 years played
55 tournaments played
2 times not making at least quarter finals
18 singles titles
33% success rate

Steffi Graf
17 years played
54 tournaments played
12 times not making at least quarter finals
22 titles won
41% success rate

Martina Navratilova
22 years played
64 tournaments played
12 times not making at least quarter finals
18 titles won
28% success rate

Monica Seles
14 years played
40 tournaments played
9 times not making at least quarter finals
9 titles won
22.5% success rate

Zuras
11-13-2006, 12:34 AM
Court only played about half her career in the open era, and the AO wasn't considered a real major until long after she retired.
Anyway, realistic adjustments:
omit results before the open era(otherwise unfair to people that played in a more competitive era), omit results after player turns 30(unfair to people that hung out for a long time, like Navratilova), omit results before the generally accepted age of adulthood (18 in North America, but your your mileage may vary).

Condoleezza
11-13-2006, 10:21 AM
Ahhh Graf hit a slice backhand? ....

As a passing shot against an attacking Navratilova .....?

:-D :-D :-D

You don't know much about tennis, do you?


Condi

The tennis guy
11-13-2006, 10:53 AM
MOST IMPRESSIVE SEASONS IN WTA TENNIS 1987 - 2006

1 . 1989 (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
2 . 1987 (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
3 . 1988 (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
4 . 1995 (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
5 . 1997 (94% 75-5) Martina Hingis (SUI)
6 . 1990 (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
7 . 1992 (93% 70-5) Monica Seles (USA)
8 . 1996 (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)
9 . 2003 (93% 38-3) Serena Williams (USA)
10. 1993 (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
11. 1991 (93% 74-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
12. 2002 (92% 56-5) Serena Williams (USA)
13. 1989 (91% 73-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
14. 2000 (91% 41-4) Venus Williams (USA)
15. 1992 (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
16. 1988 (91% 70-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
17. 1994 (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
18. 2001 (90% 46-5) Venus Williams (USA)
19. 1990 (90% 54-6) Monica Seles (YUG)
20. 2004 (90% 35-4) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
21. 1994 (90% 77-9) Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (ESP)
22. 1991 (89% 65-8 ) Steffi Graf (GER)
23. 2000 (89% 77-10) Martina Hingis (SUI)
24. 2005 (88% 67-9) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
25. 2003 (88% 90-12) Kim Clijsters (BEL)
26. 2006 (88 % 60-8 ) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
27. 1990 (88% 52-7) Martina Navratilova (USA)
28. 2004 (88% 63-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
29. 1987 (88% 56-8 ) Martina Navratilova (USA)
30. 2001 (87% 62-9) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
31. 2002 (87% 62-9) Venus Williams (USA)
32. 2003 (87% 75-11) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
33. 2005 (87% 34-5) Justine Henin-Hardenne (BEL)
34. 2006 (87% 59-9) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
35. 1995 (86% 63-10) Conchita Martinez (ESP)
36. 1999 (86% 61-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
37. 2001 (86% 60-10) Lindsay Davenport (USA)
38. 1991 (85% 53-9) Martina Navratilova (USA)
39. 2005 (85% 41-7) Maria Sharapova (RUS)
40. 1999 (85% 41-7) Serena Williams (USA)

Exactly 20 of 40 of those impressive seasons are from the last decade (1997-2006). So obviously it wasn't more difficult to be successful in today's tennis than it was in the decade before that (1987-96).

If it weren't for Graf we would be saying today that the field had more depth in 1987-96 than in 1997-2006 ...

Condi

Why do you limit to 1987? Why list only top 40? Sounds like making a point by cherry picking stats to me.

Only 4 out of the top 20 occured in 1997-2006 that's a lot more significant than 20 out of 40 occured in 1997-2006.

lenbo01
11-13-2006, 11:09 AM
1988 has got to be the most impressive regardless of winning pct... Graf - 4 grand slams wins plus the olympic gold medal. case closed

rommil
11-13-2006, 11:13 AM
As a passing shot against an attacking Navratilova .....?

:-D :-D :-D

You don't know much about tennis, do you?


Condi

Watching it you mean? You poor soul, that's probably the only thing you do. I have been playing tennis for 20 years and play in USTA tournaments. You probably sit on your behind watching very old Graf matches and thinking how good she is. And you always go back to Navratilova and how Graf passed her. You are just a redundant time machine.

Condoleezza
11-13-2006, 12:56 PM
Watching it you mean? You poor soul, that's probably the only thing you do. I have been playing tennis for 20 years and play in USTA tournaments. You probably sit on your behind watching very old Graf matches and thinking how good she is. And you always go back to Navratilova and how Graf passed her. You are just a redundant time machine.

I admit it, I go back to Beethoven and Louis Armstrong.
You prefer 50 cents and Madonna.
To each his own.


Condi

BTW, suggesting that Graf beat Navratilova in Wimbledon with *slice* BH passing shots makes one very vulnerable .....

superman1
11-13-2006, 02:40 PM
I don't see why it's necessary to try to prove how good Graf was. If you don't think she's at least in the top 3 of all time, you are wrong.

tennisjunkiela
11-13-2006, 08:55 PM
Why do you limit to 1987? Why list only top 40? Sounds like making a point by cherry picking stats to me.

the poster is cherry picking to promote graf!

martina navratilova finished 1983 with only 1 loss the entire year!

ty slothrop
11-13-2006, 09:07 PM
[QUOTE=The tennis guy;1061668]Sounds like making a point by cherry picking.
QUOTE]


well, her name IS condoleeza...

rommil
11-13-2006, 09:31 PM
I admit it, I go back to Beethoven and Louis Armstrong.
You prefer 50 cents and Madonna.
To each his own.


Condi

BTW, suggesting that Graf beat Navratilova in Wimbledon with *slice* BH passing shots makes one very vulnerable .....

Ok we get it. You are old and stuck up. BTW, I listen more to the likes of Bjork, Radiohead and Sigur Ros.

ATPballkid
11-13-2006, 09:38 PM
Ok guys.. I have compiled another list of stats for Navratilova & Graf and established a finals-winning percentage for them. Basically these stats show how many finals they have won vs. the number of finals they reached. I also broke it down by the surface for Condoleezza aka Gunther Parche.

Here are the results:

Martina Navratilova:

Hardcourt:
Total Finals Played: 53


Claycourt:
Total Finals Played: 32


Grasscourt:
Total Finals Played: 41


Indoor Carpet:
Total Finals Played: 115

Total Career Finals Played: 241
Total Career Finals Won: 167


Steffi Graf:

Hardcourt:
Total Finals Played: 53

Claycourt:
Total Finals Played: 43


Grasscourt:
Total Finals Played: 9


Indoor Carpet:
Total Finals Played: 33

Total Career Finals Played: 138

so let's review:

Hardcourt

Navratilova.. 53 finals
Graf........... 53 finals

Winner: TIED

Claycourt

Navratilova.. 32 finals
Graf........... 43 finals

Winner: Graf

Grasscourt

Navratilova.. 41 finals
Graf........... 9 finals

Winner: Navratilova

Indoor Carpet

Navratilova.. 115 finals
Graf........... 33 finals

Winner: Navratilova

Career Finals

Navratilova.. 241 finals (winning 167)
Graf........... 138 finals

Winner: Navratilova

As you can see by the results, Navratilova has a much better record in reaching finals than Graf did.

Chris Evert was never stabbed in the back at the top of her career.

Condoleezza
11-13-2006, 10:01 PM
Ok guys.. I have compiled another list of stats for Navratilova & Graf and established a finals-winning percentage for them. ....

Martina Navratilova: ....

Total Career Finals Played: 241
Total Career Finals Won: 167


Steffi Graf: .....

Total Career Finals Played: 138

so let's review:
....




You forgot Graf's "Total Career Finals Won" and didn't "establish a finals-winning percentage for them" although you promised so!:grin:
Wonder why ....

OK, I'll help you, poor soul.

Graf:
Total Career Finals Won: 107

Finals-Winning Percentage:
Graf: 78 %
Navratilova: 69 %


Winner: Steffi Graf

ATPballkid
11-13-2006, 10:24 PM
You forgot Graf's "Total Career Finals Won" and didn't "establish a finals-winning percentage for them" although you promised so!:grin:
Wonder why ....

OK, I'll help you, poor soul.

Graf:
Total Career Finals Won: 107

Finals-Winning Percentage:
Graf: 78 %
Navratilova: 69 %


Winner: Steffi Graf



LOL ... another beauty from Gunther Parche.

Graf won a total of 107 singles titles over a 14 year span. That is an average of 7.643 singles titles per year over 14 years.

Navratilova won a total of 167 singles titles over a span of 21 years. That is an average of 7.952 singles titles per year over 21 years.


Most singles titles in one season:

Steffi Graf: 14 in 1989
Navratilova: 16 in 1983 ... 15 in 1982 ... 14 in 1986.


Most singles titles in 2 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 25 in 1988-1989
Navratilova: 31 in 1982-1983


Most singles titles in 3 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 36 in 1987-1989
Navratilova: 44 in 1982-1984


Most singles titles in 4 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 46 in 1987-1990
Navratilova: 56 in 1982-1985


Most singles titles in 5 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 54 in 1986-1990
Navratilova: 70 in 1982-1986


Most singles titles in 6 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 61 in 1986-1991
Navratilova: 80 in 1981-1986


Most singles titles in 7 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 69 in 1986-1992
Navratilova: 91 in 1980-1986


Most singles titles in 8 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 79 in 1986-1993
Navratilova: 101 in 1979-1986


Most singles titles in 9 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 86 in 1986-1994
Navratilova: 123 in 1978-1986


Most singles titles in 10 consecutive seasons:

Steffi Graf: 95 in 1986-1995
Navratilova: 130 in 1977-1986


Most singles titles in a given year:

1. Navratilova 1983 ....... 16
2. Navratilova 1982 ....... 15
3. Navratilova 1986 ....... 14
3. Graf 1989 ..................... 14
5. Navratilova 1984 ....... 13
6. Navratilova 1985 ....... 12
7. Navratilova 1978 ....... 11
7. Navratilova 1980 ....... 11
7. Graf 1987 ..................... 11
7. Graf 1988 ..................... 11
11. Navratilova 1979 ....... 10
11. Navratilova 1981 ....... 10
11. Graf 1990 ..................... 10
11. Graf 1993 ..................... 10

What were you saying, Gunther?

AND Navratilova is the ONLY player in women's tennis history to have the all-time record for most singles matches won at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis.

Meanwhile, Graf does not have the all-time record for most singles titles at ANY of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis even with the help she got from Gunther.

ATPballkid
11-13-2006, 10:46 PM
OK, I'll help you, poor soul.

Graf:
Total Career Finals Won: 107



No ... the vast majority of the NUMBERS are on significantly on Navratilova's side ... 167 is ALWAYS greater than 107 except in golf.

Don't make us show you up yet again, Gunther, by going over the numbers again.

Condoleezza
11-14-2006, 11:47 AM
LOL ... another beauty from Gunther Parche.

Graf won a total of 107 singles titles over a 14 year span. That is an average of 7.643 singles titles per year over 14 years.

Navratilova won a total of 167 singles titles over a span of 21 years. That is an average of 7.952 singles titles per year over 21 years.

...


You forgot Navratilova's numerous mixed doubes titles.


BTW:

Most slams in a 1-year span:
Graf: 4 (= "Grand Slam")
Navratilova 3
winner: Graf

Most slams in a career span:
Graf: 22 (= most pro slam titles)
Navratilova: 18
winner: Graf


We should ask Graf whether she would swap those records against Navratilova's 167 singles titles and all those mixed doubles titles .....

;) :D :D

Condi

Condoleezza
11-14-2006, 11:50 AM
No ... the vast majority of the NUMBERS are on significantly on Navratilova's side ... 167 is ALWAYS greater than 107 except in golf. ...


Which male golfers won

a) the most titles

b) the most majors?

Tell us and then we decide who is more famous .... :grin: :grin: :grin:


Condi

Condoleezza
11-14-2006, 11:57 AM
Steffi Graf won 676 of 721 matches in a 10-year time span (1987-96).
That is 93.7587 %.

Now the question:

Which WTA player of the last 20 years had a better winning percentage (or at least the same) in ONE calendar year?

a) Monica Seles

b) Serena Williams

c) Both of them

d) None of them

e) Someone else



Condi

Grimjack
11-14-2006, 12:05 PM
You forgot the asterisk next to the winning percentage.

ATXtennisaddict
11-14-2006, 12:12 PM
condoleeza, here's a question for you

What are you doing here instead of helping run the country?

Condoleezza
11-14-2006, 12:14 PM
You forgot the asterisk next to the winning percentage.

You mean

"* = could have been even more successful if not having been hampered by tons of injuries and distracted by family scandals"?


Hmm, debatable - but this would be woulda-coulda land.
Doesn't count.
So let's stay with 93.7587 % .........


Condi

Condoleezza
11-14-2006, 12:16 PM
condoleeza, here's a question for you

What are you doing here instead of helping run the country?


As a matter of fact I DO help run the country.

In spare time I school young tennis fanatics.


Condi

ATPballkid
11-14-2006, 07:55 PM
You forgot Navratilova's numerous mixed doubes titles.



Condi

Navratilova is the only woman player to have the all-time record for most singles titles at 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis (Wimbledon and WTA Championships) .... the other 3 record holders at the biggest events are Evert (French), Mallory (U.S. Championships) and Court (Australian). Steffi doesn't show up as having the most at any of the biggest 5 events --- even with the stabbing.

SORRY.

ATPballkid
11-14-2006, 08:03 PM
We should ask Graf whether she would swap those records against Navratilova's 167 singles titles and all those mixed doubles titles .....



Condi

Right .. Graf would never have the record Navratilova had at Wimbledon on the grass, or indoors at the WTA Tour Championships, or in the doubles ... and Graf would never have the record Evert had at the French Open, on clay and in terms of her consistency in winning at least 1 Slam in 13 consecutive years.

Graf was more of a blend .. not as good as Evert on the clay or in terms of consistency year after year ... not as good as Navratilova on grass, indoors or in dominating in her very best years in singles and doubles.

Graf was kind of in between the two .. balanced .. and a fan knocked the #1 player in the world out for her back sticking a sharp knife in her back while they were at an event in Hamburg, Germany.

Zuras
11-14-2006, 08:09 PM
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/2/players/playerprofiles/playerheadtoheaddetail.asp?PlayerID=70044&Player1ID=140007&x=3&y=8

Can you count? Graf 9 - Navratilova 8

After you finish counting, then notice that essentially all of Navratilova's wins came when Graf was 15-17 or the years between 1990-1993.

So what's the record after Graf was an adult at 18 and not counting the scandal/injuries years 1990-1993?

Graf 7- Navratilova 2

You are sad.

"I was better on the slower courts, and Navratilova was better on the faster courts. Then Graf came along and she was better then either of us on both." -- Chris Evert

"Steffi is definitely the greatest women's tennis player of all-time." -- Billie Jean King

ATPballkid
11-14-2006, 08:43 PM
http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/2/players/playerprofiles/playerheadtoheaddetail.asp?PlayerID=70044&Player1ID=140007&x=3&y=8

Can you count? Graf 9 - Navratilova 8

After you finish counting, then notice that essentially all of Navratilova's wins came when Graf was 15-17 or the years between 1990-1993.

So what's the record after Graf was an adult at 18 and not counting the scandal/injuries years 1990-1993?

Graf 7- Navratilova 2

You are sad.

"I was better on the slower courts, and Navratilova was better on the faster courts. Then Graf came along and she was better then either of us on both." -- Chris Evert

"Steffi is definitely the greatest women's tennis player of all-time." -- Billie Jean King



Here comes the desperation ... LOL, like shooting fish in a barrel ...

1999 Roland Garros

Chris Evert: "[Monica] then really got cheated out of a lot of Grand Slams. She was really dominating women's tennis, dominating Steffi Graf. As I said before, she won seven out of eight Grand Slams and then got stabbed and was out for 27 months. Her assailant got his wish, that Steffi Graf be Number One, and sure enough, Steffi regained the Number One position when Monica was out of the game. So he got his wish."

Dick Enberg: "Who knows how many titles she would own had she remained in full health?"

Chris Evert: "Well, a lot more than nine Grand Slams, I'll tell you that. That's so not fair, when you look at Steffi's 21 (22) and Monica's nine, it's very unbalanced, and it shouldn't be."


"Frankly, Martina Navratilova is the greatest singles, doubles and mixed doubles player that has ever lived."
_______________________________ Billie Jean King (August 2006)

Zuras
11-14-2006, 08:49 PM
Here comes the desperation ... LOL, like shooting fish in a barrel ...
[/B]


You, all thirteen versions of you, just make crap up.

ATPballkid
11-14-2006, 08:52 PM
You, all thirteen versions of you, just make crap up.

are u done yet?

That is what Graf asked Navratilova after Navratilova beat Graf for a 4th time out of 5 attempts at the U.S. Open in 1991 (the only match between the 30-something Navratilova and the 20-something Graf at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s).

Gunther, it is INCREDIBLE how much you still have to learn .. It is amazing how much you still don't know.

Zuras
11-14-2006, 09:05 PM
are u done yet?

That is what Graf asked Navratilova after Navratilova beat Graf for a 4th time out of 5 attempts at the U.S. Open in 1991 (the only match between the 30-something Navratilova and the 20-something Graf at a Grand Slam event during the 1990s).

Gunther, it is INCREDIBLE how much you still have to learn .. It is amazing how much you still don't know.

I really think you need to be banned since you are clearly psychotic, abuse sock puppets, and I think you might hurt yourself when repeatedly reading the truth that Seles and Navratilova had a losing record against Graf.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 10:02 PM
I really think you need to be banned since you are clearly psychotic, abuse sock puppets, and I think you might hurt yourself when repeatedly reading the truth that Seles and Navratilova had a losing record against Graf.

Prove ATPkid lied or misled, or admit you are morally bankrupt in addition to being a ******.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 10:22 PM
I really think you need to be banned since you are clearly psychotic, abuse sock puppets, and I think you might hurt yourself when repeatedly reading the truth that Seles and Navratilova had a losing record against Graf.

I dont think its ATPkid who is the problem ******, since he's not trying to defend a ******** idea (daddy sex slump). And yes, MS and MN had an edge over Graff before the KNIFING and the young peaking Graff never had an edge in h2h record over an old MN. They were tied at 9-9 overall.

You clearly have an empty spot in the space that should be filled with brain matter. :)

Zuras
11-14-2006, 10:41 PM
I dont think its ATPkid who is the problem ******, since he's not trying to defend a ******** idea (daddy sex slump). And yes, MS and MN had an edge over Graff before the KNIFING and the young peaking Graff never had an edge in h2h record over an old MN. They were tied at 9-9 overall.

You clearly have an empty spot in the space that should be filled with brain matter. :)


Excuses included:
Graf > Seles
Graf > Navratilova

Excuses excluded:
Graf > Seles
Graf > Navratilova

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 10:48 PM
Excuses included:
Graf > Seles
Graf > Navratilova

Excuses excluded:
Graf > Seles
Graf > Navratilova

Seles vs. Graf >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graf + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graf is #1

Gunter + KNIFE >> Graf

MN is GOAT.

Are you paid to be this dense..? :)

Zuras
11-14-2006, 10:53 PM
Seles vs. Graf >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graf + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graf is #1

Gunter + KNIFE >> Graf

MN is GOAT.

Are you paid to be this dense..? :)

Excuses or no, it doesn't matter: Graf > Seles/Navratilova.

You know this, and you also know that anyone who knows anything about tennis knows this as well. So you make dozens of fake accounts here(and it seems like you do this on other message boards too) and then you have all these bigoted hypocritical exchanges with your sock puppets hoping someone that knows dicksquat about tennis and that part of female tennis history will buy into your BS. You are sad and you need to be banned.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 10:59 PM
So you make dozens of fake accounts here(and it seems like you do this on other message boards too) and then you have all these bigoted hypocritical exchanges with your sock puppets hoping someone that knows dicksquat about tennis and that part of female tennis history will buy into your BS. You are sad and you need to be banned.

Gunter Zuras, we know, you like Graf very much. But Graf doesn't need a ****** to defend her.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 10:59 PM
Excuses or no, it doesn't matter: Graf > Seles/Navratilova.

You know this, and you also know that anyone who knows anything about tennis knows this as well. So you make dozens of fake accounts here(and it seems like you do this on other message boards too) and then you have all these bigoted hypocritical exchanges with your sock puppets hoping someone that knows dicksquat about tennis and that part of female tennis history will buy into your BS. You are sad and you need to be banned.

Not these ******** GraFan blatter again.

Oh without a doubt Gunter Zuras The ******(tm).

Seles vs. Graf >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graf + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graf is #1

Gunter + KNIFE >> Graf

MN is GOAT.

Zuras
11-14-2006, 11:06 PM
Not these ******** GraFan blatter again.

Oh without a doubt Gunter Zuras The ******(tm).

Seles vs. Graf >> Seles is #1
Seles vs. Graf + Gunter Parche's knife >> Graf is #1

Gunter + KNIFE >> Graf

MN is GOAT.

You seem to like making excuses for Seles, but you refuse to accept any for Graf. Do you think any impartial observer would find your (il)logic acceptable? Why do you waste your time so? Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see through your nonsense.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 11:31 PM
You seem to like making excuses for Seles, but you refuse to accept any for Graf. Do you think any impartial observer would find your (il)logic acceptable? Why do you waste your time so? Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see through your nonsense.

We've seen that scenario - a player losing their 'aura' and suddenly losing to players they never used to - time and again in many different sports. The former top player gets a little down on themselves, starts to doubt themselves a little, and simultaneously the other top players gain confidence and heart. So it would hardly be unusual.

And what is the GraFan's alternative explanation? That a sex scandal involving not her but her *daddy*, and that was revealed in the media during early-mid *1990*, somehow caused her to "slump" for almost *3 years* !

That, despite the fact that when an even more devastating scandal hit both her and her father in 1995 (the tax scandal), she "slumped" by... winning *all 6* slam events she played during those years !

And that "3 year daddy sex slump" just coincidentally happened to end at the *very moment* when the woman who won 8 slams during those three years and was undisputed #1 in the world was suddenly taken off the tour!

The GraFan position is simply preposterous.

There is only one "voice of reason" in this argument - mine and those others who can recognize the obvious.

Zuras
11-14-2006, 11:35 PM
You missed the question:
You seem to like making excuses for Seles, but you refuse to accept any for Graf. Do you think any impartial observer would find your (il)logic acceptable? Why do you waste your time so? Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see through your nonsense.

The only rational answer I can come up with is that you are a troll, or you really are insane, just like Gunter.

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 11:41 PM
You missed the question:
You seem to like making excuses for Seles, but you refuse to accept any for Graf. Do you think any impartial observer would find your (il)logic acceptable? Why do you waste your time so? Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see through your nonsense.

The only rational answer I can come up with is that you are a troll, or you really are insane, just like Gunter.

Start the twilight zone music.......:)

FedSampras
11-14-2006, 11:43 PM
but you refuse to accept any for Graf. Do you think any impartial observer would find your (il)logic acceptable? Why do you waste your time so? Anyone with an IQ over 10 can see through your nonsense.

The only rational answer I can come up with is that you are a troll, or you really are insane, just like Gunter.

"Zuras" reads minds. wow.......

He *knew* both Graf's trauma and Seles doubts.

Next he will tell us what was in Gunther's mind....hope not. ;O0

Condoleezza
11-26-2006, 12:58 PM
1. Steffi Graf 22 (incl. Golden Grand Slam)
2. Chris Evert 18
3. Martina Navratilova 18
4. Margaret Court 11
5. Monica Seles 9
6. Billie Jean King 8
7. Evonne Goolagong 7
8. Serena Williams 7
9. Venus Williams 5
10. Martina Hingis 5

But maybe King is ahead of Graf in the open era GOAT race ..... ?
:D :D :D

Condi

ATPballkid
11-26-2006, 01:04 PM
1. Steffi Graf 22 (incl. Golden Grand Slam)
2. Chris Evert 18
3. Martina Navratilova 18
4. Margaret Court 11
5. Monica Seles 9
6. Billie Jean King 8
7. Evonne Goolagong 7
8. Serena Williams 7
9. Venus Williams 5
10. Martina Hingis 5

But maybe King is ahead of Graf in the open era GOAT race ..... ?
:D :D :D

Condi



Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.

These are the major records in women's tennis that date back decades and decades to 1925 and earlier.

No stabbings of the top players by any of these 5 players or their fans.

Graf has a couple of records, but they are tied to much more recent developments in the 1970s -- things like most weeks ranked #1 since the WTA began in the early 1970s and most hardcourt Slams.

Pretty sad to not be the best at anything dating back to before the Open Era in tennis began in 1968 -- especially since Graf and her career will always have the stabbing incident.

That is one reason Steffi Graf should never be considered the best of all-time --- she would not have even been the best of any specific decade without the Seles stabbing --- but even moreso because her career will always be tarnished by the stabbing of the undiputed top player in women's tennis in 1993, Monica Seles, by one of her jealous fans.

That stabbing took place before the Tonya Harding and Nancy Kerrigan thing, right?

drakulie
11-26-2006, 01:21 PM
undiputed top player in women's tennis in 1993, Monica Seles,

But she did not win Wimbledon in 1993.

ATPballkid
11-26-2006, 01:30 PM
But she did not win Wimbledon in 1993.

Consider how young Seles was in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 when she was CLEARLY the best player in women's tennis other than at Wimbledon.

This goes back to the statement about competition ... Graf could not compare with Seles in those months between the 1990 Tour Championships and the stabbing in April 1993 ... even as young as Seles was, she was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis and this was AFTER Graf had had her best years in women's tennis in 1987-1989.

scineram
11-26-2006, 01:31 PM
So what???

drakulie
11-26-2006, 01:36 PM
Consider how young Seles was in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 when she was CLEARLY the best player in women's tennis other than at Wimbledon.

That's nice. She dominated, according to you, all of the "unimportant slams". Zero Wimbledon titles.

FedSampras
11-26-2006, 01:37 PM
That's nice. She dominated, according to you, all of the "unimportant slams". Zero Wimbledon titles.

your graff will always be known as an ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german to give her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE. :)

drakulie
11-26-2006, 01:40 PM
your graff will always be known as an ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german to give her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE. :)

and who said tennis wasn't a contact sport.

FedSampras
11-26-2006, 01:42 PM
and who said tennis wasn't a contact sport.

That is why she will always be known as the one and ONLY KNIFE NUMBER ONE. :)

ATPballkid
11-26-2006, 01:57 PM
1. Margaret Court ..... 24 .. record number of Slams

2. Steffi Graf* .. 22 .. inflated with stabbing of teenage #1, Monica Seles.

3. Helen Wills Moody ........ 19 .. record 9 years at #1 in the 1920s and 1930s.

4.Chris Evert ................... 18 .. record 13 consecutive years with a Slam.

4. Martina Navratilova ...... 18 .. record 9 singles titles at Wimbledon.

6. Billie Jean King .............. 12 .. 6 Wimbledon singles titles and 20 overall.

6. Suzanne Lenglen ...... 12 .. 6 Wimbledons and 6 French Championships.

8. Maureen Connolly ........... 9 .. 9 Grand Slam singles titles as a teenager.

8. Monica Seles ................... 9 .. 8 Slams as #1 teen until stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan.

Condoleezza
01-16-2007, 11:57 AM
Some people think that winning 3 slams in a row at the same slam means that you already have the 4th almost secure in the bag.

But is this true?

Let's have a look at women's tennis post-WW2.

1) Nancye Wynne Bolton won AO 1946-48. But not in 1949.
2) Louise Brough won Wimbledon 1948-50. But not in 1951.
3) Margaret Osborne-duPont won USO 1948-50. But not in 1951.
4) Maureen Connolly won USO in 1951-53. But not in 1954
5) Maureen Connolly won Wimbledon 1952-54. But not in 1955.
6) Margaret Smith won AO 1960-62. And again in 1963 (and 1964-66).
7) Billie Jean King won Wimbledon 1966-68. But not in 1969.
8 ) Margaret Smith-Court won AO 1969-71. But not in 1972.
9) Evonne Goolagong won AO 1974-76. But not in 1977.
10) Chris Evert won USO 1975-77. And again in 1978.
11) Martina Navratilova won Wimbledon 1982-84. And again in 1985 (and 1986-87)
12) Steffi Graf won AO 1988-90. But not again in 1991.
13) Monica Seles won FO 1990-92. Not again in 1993 but that doesn't count because of stabbing.
14) Monica Seles won AO 1991-93. Not again in 1994 but that doesn't count because of stabbing.
15) Steffi Graf won Wimbledon 1991-93. But not again in 1994.
16) Martina Hingis won AO 1997-99. But not again in 2000.

16 times a 3-time winner.
Twice it doesn't count (Seles stabbing).
Leaves us with 14.
Three times the players made it 4 consecutive (Smith at AO 1963, Evert at USO 1978, Navratilova at Wimbledon 1985).
3 of 14.
21 %.

No we know the odds of Seles winning a fourth consecutive FO in 1993 or a fourth consecutive AO in 1994 without the stabbing.

21 %.

So we have to deduct 21 % from Graf's 100 % (she won FO 93 and AO 94 in Seles's absence).

79 % for Graf. 21 % for Seles.


Some people will hate stats ........


Condi

VikingSamurai
01-16-2007, 09:33 PM
Margaret Smith, and Margaret Court are the same woman..

How long did it take you to copy all that?

And please stop re-creating history.. Who cares about %'s of things that "could" have happened?

Lastly.. I still dont know what you are trying to prove, and why?

What is the point to all these posts? I am starting to feel that you have issues...

PimpMyGame
01-17-2007, 09:32 AM
This thread goes nowhere and your maths is hugely flawed.

raiden031
01-17-2007, 09:41 AM
Stop with the ad hominem attacks! :grin:

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 10:34 AM
This thread goes nowhere and your maths is hugely flawed.


It is one of the most devastating stats for Seles fanatics.

They try to extrapolate from Seles's AO 1991-93 and FO 1990-92 wins that Seles MOST PROBABLY would have won AO 1994 and FO 1993 without the stabbing.

Presenting the fact that post-WW2 in only THREE of FOURTEEN occasions (= 21 %) the player succeeded to win the fourth title in a row thoroughly sinks this theory. Someone who maintains that this" maths is hugely flawed" is a true ******.

Condi

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 10:41 AM
Did you know that Monica Seles had a 70-5 win/loss record in 1992, her best year ever.
That is a 93.33 % winning percentage.

And did you know that Steffi Graf had a 740-51 win/loss record in a 11-year-long period (1986-96).
That is a 93.55 % winning percentage.


Condi

Haasquet
01-17-2007, 11:13 AM
Well, the math is flawed. You're suggesting that all the players before (and since Seles) had equal odds of winning. That's like saying that, because a regular die has a one-in-six chance of rolling a one, a quarter has a one-in-six chance of landing 'heads'.

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 11:32 AM
Well, the math is flawed. You're suggesting that all the players before (and since Seles) had equal odds of winning. That's like saying that, because a regular die has a one-in-six chance of rolling a one, a quarter has a one-in-six chance of landing 'heads'.


Actually Seles had LOWER odds to win a fourth title.
Because she played in the age of Steffi Graf, the GOAT, who had won a Golden Grand Slam a few years before, who had beaten her 3 times in the last 5 matches, who was very close in the WTA rankings, who had a 80-7 win/loss record in the 12 preceeding months (Seles 58-5).

So you see - you say she had higher odds (what do you think? 30 %?? 40 %????), I say she had lower odds. Difficult to prove - for you and for me.

Fact is that winning a fourth title doesn't happen very often.
Only in 3 out of 14 occasions. 21 %.

I bet that most Seles fans with their gut feelings are surprised to learn that. They have an up-hill battle in front of them if they really want to convince anyone that Seles had better odds than 21 %. Just claiming it and stomping with their feet on the ground will not suffice ...

Condi

Haasquet
01-17-2007, 11:44 AM
My point was that you couldn't use other players' data to make odds for Seles, not that Seles had a one-in-two chance rather than a one-in-six chance. Either you understood my point, and are too stubborn to admit that I'm right (though I'm not necessarily disputing that Graf is the greatest), or you missed the point completely, and you don't understand how your odds-making method is flawed.

Haasquet
01-17-2007, 11:46 AM
Also, I'm not a Seles fan in the slightest. I also definitely don't have to "stomp my feet" to make my point. The logic speaks for itself.

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 12:18 PM
My point was that you couldn't use other players' data to make odds for Seles, not that Seles had a one-in-two chance rather than a one-in-six chance. Either you understood my point, and are too stubborn to admit that I'm right (though I'm not necessarily disputing that Graf is the greatest), or you missed the point completely, and you don't understand how your odds-making method is flawed.



You obviously don't know what "odds" are.

What makes you think Seles had a better chance than Connolly, King, Smith-Court, Graf et al.? Give us facts that support your claim.

Condi

Haasquet
01-17-2007, 12:35 PM
You obviously don't know what "odds" are.

What makes you think Seles had a better chance than Connolly, King, Smith-Court, Graf et al.? Give us facts that support your claim.

Condi

Uh... Phil, if you're reading, I have a question: is this guy serious, or is he just playing thick to mess with me?

Haasquet
01-17-2007, 12:53 PM
What I didn't get was why you're asking me to back up a statement I've never made. I guess it must have been the "your claim" part. Feel free to re-read the earlier posts, and then back-track accordingly...

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 01:44 PM
What I didn't get was why you're asking me to back up a statement I've never made. I guess it must have been the "your claim" part. Feel free to re-read the earlier posts, and then back-track accordingly...


A certain poster had this to say:
"Well, the math is flawed. You're suggesting that all the players before (and since Seles) had equal odds of winning. That's like saying that, because a regular die has a one-in-six chance of rolling a one, a quarter has a one-in-six chance of landing 'heads'."

What does one answer to this? Maybe this:

If a person X has caught colon cancer. Let's assume we do know that 80 % of people who catch colon cancer die within 5 years.
I then say that person X's odds to die within 5 years of colon cancer are 80 %.
Then comes some joker who says "your math is flawed! You're suggesting that all other persons have equal odds of dying. That's like saying that, because a regular die has a one-in-six chance of rolling a one, a quarter has a one-in-six chance of landing 'heads'."

Which ends all discussions. Because you need two persons to be on nearly the same level of human development to have a decent discussion .....


Condi

AndrewD
01-17-2007, 04:07 PM
You obviously don't know what "odds" are.


'Odds' are simply the ratio of the probability of one event occurring as opposed to an alternative event

For example:

'Odds' are exceptionally high that anyone who feels the need to constantly revisit any issue relating to Monica Seles' stabbing is mentally unwell.

'Odds' are exceptionally high that anyone who feels the need to 'sign off' their post with their handle name is suffering from issues relating to identity/ego.

'Odds' are exceptionally high that you'll feel the need to dredge this same garbage up in countless other threads.

Condoleezza
01-17-2007, 04:23 PM
'Odds' are simply the ratio of the probability of one event occurring as opposed to an alternative event

For example:

'Odds' are exceptionally high that anyone who feels the need to constantly revisit any issue relating to Monica Seles' stabbing is mentally unwell.

'Odds' are exceptionally high that anyone who feels the need to 'sign off' their post with their handle name is suffering from issues relating to identity/ego.

'Odds' are exceptionally high that you'll feel the need to dredge this same garbage up in countless other threads.


Odds are 100 % that you are American.

Condi

PimpMyGame
01-18-2007, 01:30 AM
Condoleeza

Unless you try to build a model which includes the player's age, number of wins in a rolling 12-month period on the particular GS surface, performance in the immediate warm-up events, injuries to other players, whether they had a cold, problems with constipation, what their star sign is, whether the moon was full, and compare this against all other major contenders your conclusions will be flawed.

Accept the fact that Seles was stabbed. We will never know how successful she could have been. Hell, when I saw the Williams sisters crash on to the scene I thought they would be running women's tennis for 10 years. Look how wrong I was.

Once you have set up a better model please tell me how many GS's McEnroe would have won if he didn't get together with Tatum.

Have a nice day.

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 01:50 AM
Condoleeza

Unless you try to build a model which includes the player's age, number of wins in a rolling 12-month period on the particular GS surface, performance in the immediate warm-up events, injuries to other players, whether they had a cold, problems with constipation, what their star sign is, whether the moon was full, and compare this against all other major contenders your conclusions will be flawed. ....


A conclusion from the fact that only 3 of 14 woman players managed a 4th consecutive slam win (at same venue) after WW2 is clearly less flawed than a conclusion from a gut feeling that Seles would have won FO 93 and AO 94.

Can we agree at least on that?

Condi

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 01:57 AM
Wimbledon winning percentages


1. Graf (GER) 91.4 % (74-7)
2. Navratilova (USA) 89.6 % (120-14)
3. Sharapova (RUS) 87.0 % (20-3)
4. S. Williams (USA) 86.8 % (33-5)
5. Evert (USA) 86.5 % (96-15)
6. V. Williams (USA) 86.3 % (44-7)
7. Goolagong (AUS) 86.0 % (49-8)

... Davenport (USA) 80.0 % (48-12)


Condi

urban
01-18-2007, 02:02 AM
How about Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills or Maureen Connolly, all would be close to 100 %.

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 02:24 AM
How about Suzanne Lenglen, Helen Wills or Maureen Connolly, all would be close to 100 %.

Open era only.

Competitions among California society girls or British upper-class girls of yesteryears are of no relevance in a modern tennis forum.

Condi

PimpMyGame
01-18-2007, 04:30 AM
No because there are only 12 women on your list and not the fourteen you claim. Four women appear twice. If that conclusion was less flawed then your gut reaction on Seles you have just destroyed your own argument.

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 04:48 AM
No because there are only 12 women on your list and not the fourteen you claim. Four women appear twice. If that conclusion was less flawed then your gut reaction on Seles you have just destroyed your own argument.

In which way does it weaken my position that four women appear twice?


8 players appear once, only two of them won the 4th slam in a row.
3 players (Conolly, Court, Graf) appear twice, only Court won the 4th at one occasion.
Seles appears twice but we don't count her for obvious reasons (didn't make the 4th slam due to stabbing).

So 14 times a player had the task ahead of her to win a 4th consecutive slam at a certain venue.
3 times they succeded. 11 times they failed.
That is only a 21 % success rate.

If YOU want to claim that Seles had a BETTER chance then YOU have to bring up evidence for that.


Condi

PimpMyGame
01-18-2007, 05:24 AM
In which way does it weaken my position that four women appear twice?

Because you are asking me to consider that the conclusion you have about 14 women blah blah is less flawed than your gut feeling. Clearly counting 14 women from 12 names is Completely flawed. You yourself assume that your gut reaction is more flawed. I'm just pointing out the facts and applying them to the comment you invited me to post on.


8 players appear once, only two of them won the 4th slam in a row.
3 players (Conolly, Court, Graf) appear twice, only Court won the 4th at one occasion.
Seles appears twice but we don't count her for obvious reasons (didn't make the 4th slam due to stabbing).

So 14 times a player had the task ahead of her to win a 4th consecutive slam at a certain venue.
3 times they succeded. 11 times they failed.
That is only a 21 % success rate.Condi

This is entirely different to your previous post. You talked of 14 women; now you talk of 14 times. Which one is it?

If YOU want to claim that Seles had a BETTER chance then YOU have to bring up evidence for that.

I don't want to do that. I don't believe I ever expressed a wish to do that. As we are now going round in circles and you are attempting as usual to twist previous posts I think I'll call it a day on this thread before I sink to your level and call you a name that has to be asterisked out.

AndrewD
01-18-2007, 05:39 AM
Odds are 100 % that you are American.

Condi

Odd are 100% that you're wrong (again).

Amone
01-18-2007, 10:12 AM
Open era only.

Competitions among California society girls or British upper-class girls of yesteryears are of no relevance in a modern tennis forum.

Condi

Man, that Bill Tilden guy, that's all he ever was, was a society guy. That's why he played! And, he was a pedophile! All he ever did was touch boys and be rich, he has no relevance to real tennis! Even a 3.0 hacker nowadays could beat him in straights!

urban
01-18-2007, 10:57 AM
Only, without Tilden, Federer would hit forehand and backhand still with the same side of the racket. I doubt, that Sampras, Federer or Graf would had the intellectual capacity to transform the game, in the way Tilden did.

Haasquet
01-18-2007, 12:00 PM
I'm not saying Seles had odds higher than 21%. I don't even like Seles. I find her game ugly, and I was annoyed by her grunting. That said...

I'm saying the way you calculated those odds is flawed. To figure out the probability of an event by taking the number of successful occurences of a particular outcome (player winning four in a row) and dividing by the number of trials (every time a three-time defending champ goes for the fourth) assumes that, for all trials, the successful occurence of that particular outcome has the same likelihood.

What this means is that the likelihood of winning the fourth slam is the same for every player, regardless of quality of opposition or any other factors. This means that you don't think Seles' chances of winning a fourth straight would be affected by whether or not Graf even plays. This is tantamount to saying Graf wasn't good enough to make it tougher for Seles to win (basically, Graf was a non-issue). As a fellow Graf fan, I'm ashamed to see you make that claim.

QED.

...and I could also point out the fact that, assuming the likelihood of winning the fourth were the same for every player -which it's not-, that your method would only become accurate after many, many trials. Not 14. This is basic probability and stats, dude. It's probably in the first chapter or two of any intro text (which you might consider reading, so that you can make your 'Interesting Stats' threads less useless).

Condoleezza
01-18-2007, 12:11 PM
I'm not saying Seles had odds higher than 21%. I don't even like Seles. I find her game ugly, and I was annoyed by her grunting. That said...

I'm saying the way you calculated those odds is flawed. To figure out the probability of an event by taking the number of successful occurences of a particular outcome (player winning four in a row) and dividing by the number of trials (every time a three-time defending champ goes for the fourth) assumes that, for all trials, the successful occurence of that particular outcome has the same likelihood.

What this means is that the likelihood of winning the fourth slam is the same for every player, regardless of quality of opposition or any other factors. This means that you don't think Seles' chances of winning a fourth straight would be affected by whether or not Graf even plays. This is tantamount to saying Graf wasn't good enough to make it tougher for Seles to win (basically, Graf was a non-issue). As a fellow Graf fan, I'm ashamed to see you make that claim.

QED.

...and I could also point out the fact that, assuming the likelihood of winning the fourth were the same for every player -which it's not-, that your method would only become accurate after many, many trials. Not 14. This is basic probability and stats, dude. It's probably in the first chapter or two of any intro text (which you might consider reading, so that you can make your 'Interesting Stats' threads less useless).


Let's agree that on average the odds would be 21 %.

Of course it would be better to have 140 instead of 14 samples. You won't believe it, but I have studied statistics and "stochastics" and work with them every othe day professionally.
Having said that, only 3 of 14 successful quadruple wins is statistically "significant". Don't forget that these Seles fans try to make people believe that Monica's 3 wins in a row almost certainly would have GUARANTEED a fourth title (meaning Graf would have won those titles).
Which is - those stats prove it - total BS.

Condi

Amone
01-18-2007, 01:57 PM
Only, without Tilden, Federer would hit forehand and backhand still with the same side of the racket. I doubt, that Sampras, Federer or Graf would had the intellectual capacity to transform the game, in the way Tilden did.

Probably not. However, it was pre open-era, and my complaint was on the characterization of the pre-open area as only being "society folks."

PimpMyGame
01-19-2007, 12:00 AM
Condi

What stats work do you do professionally, and in what context? Also what's your day job?

PMG

Condoleezza
01-20-2007, 03:25 AM
IMAGES

The Boston Garden's parquet floor,
The Thrilla in Manila,
The tennis match 'tween Bobby Riggs
And Billy Jean, mankilla.

The shifty moves of Gale Sayers,
The bank shots of Sam Jones,
Bruce Jenner's ten at Montreal,
M. Seles' grunts and groans.

Seattle Slew's big Triple Crown,
Greg Norman's Masters woe,
Walt Frazier donning his fur coat,
Bjorn Borg and McEnroe.

Roy Campanella, MVP,
The class of Arthur Ashe,
Knute Rockne's "Gipper" pregame speech,
Louganis--zero splash.

John Riggins and the Redskins' Hogs,
Young Boris Becker diving,
The iron will of Salazar,
Ol' Jimmy Connors striving.

Rick Barry's free throws--underhand,
Scott Hamilton on ice,
Greg Maddux carving up the plate,
Martina's backhand slice.

Montana's touchdown pass to Clark,
Quick Elgin Baylor gunning,
Chris Evert's steady baseline play,
Swift Jesse Owens running.

Rod Laver's all-court artistry,
Pete Sampras' bullet shots,
The air ballet of Dr. J,
Hank Aaron's home-run trots.

Autumnal Yankee Stadium,
P. Fleming, ballerina,
The tennis-playing Williamses--
Buff Venus and Serena.

Resurgent Andre Agassi,
El Duque's trial by fire,
The two-year home-run spectacle
Of Sosa and McGwire.

The shooting touch of Hornacek,
Ventura's grand-slam single,
The stoic face of Margaret Court,
Two baseball leagues commingle.

The images that stick with me
Are myriad, it seems;
To list them all for you today
Would take me reams and reams.

To pick just one to call my fave
Would almost be a sin,
But somewhere near the top I'd put
Graf's stunning Paris win.

I hope the ones that I have shared
Have rung a bell or two--
And also that those images
Have touched a chord in you.


Condi

The Grand Slam
01-27-2007, 05:26 AM
Wasn't Lenglen French?

Condoleezza
01-27-2007, 07:27 AM
Wasn't Lenglen French?

No, upper-class Californian. San Diego, IMO.

Condi

alwaysatnet
02-09-2007, 05:25 PM
No, upper-class Californian. San Diego, IMO.

CondiIs this a sad joke or are you unaware that Suzanne Lenglen was as French as they come? Talk about ignorant! Sheesh...

wildmoose31
02-09-2007, 06:37 PM
i know sarcasm can be hard to read in chats/msg boards, but come on people

The Gorilla
02-09-2007, 07:13 PM
Only, without Tilden, Federer would hit forehand and backhand still with the same side of the racket. I doubt, that Sampras, Federer or Graf would had the intellectual capacity to transform the game, in the way Tilden did.

what do you mean?

Condoleezza
02-11-2007, 03:40 AM
Is this a sad joke or are you unaware that Suzanne Lenglen was as French as they come? Talk about ignorant! Sheesh...

The name sounds English to me.
Maybe she had a French grandpa or so?
I could be wrong with San Diego as well. But California it was!

Condi

llama
02-11-2007, 11:38 AM
The name sounds English to me.
Maybe she had a French grandpa or so?
I could be wrong with San Diego as well. But California it was!

Condi

Where did you ever come up with that??

Suzanne Lenglen was probably the most famous female player, ever, in and from France. Ever hear of Court Suzanne Lenglen at Roland Garros? They sure the heck wouldn't name it after some one from San Diego.

Nick Irons
02-11-2007, 12:08 PM
Open era only.

Competitions among California society girls or British upper-class girls of yesteryears are of no relevance in a modern tennis forum.

Condi

:-D

I concur

Condoleezza
02-11-2007, 01:20 PM
Where did you ever come up with that??

Suzanne Lenglen was probably the most famous female player, ever, in and from France. Ever hear of Court Suzanne Lenglen at Roland Garros? They sure the heck wouldn't name it after some one from San Diego.

I'm not so sure here ....
After all the U.S. has a Statue of Liberty which was made in FRANCE!!

Maybe Lenglen had dual citizenship?

Or was it L.A. instead of San Diego .... (?)

Condi

alwaysatnet
02-11-2007, 01:34 PM
Why don't you Google her bio instead of making uniformed guesses? That would be the intelligent thing to do....Statue of Liberty? Holy Cow!

10sfreak
02-11-2007, 01:34 PM
Condi, I don't want to jump on the bandwagon that's getting all over you, but here's a link about Suzanne Lenglen:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Lenglen
Apparently, she was a Frenchwoman. But, I still don't see any reason for some of these people to react the way they did to you...
Ooops, need to edit the above. She WAS a Frenchwoman, no "apparently" about it!

Condoleezza
02-12-2007, 12:28 PM
Condi, I don't want to jump on the bandwagon that's getting all over you, but here's a link about Suzanne Lenglen:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanne_Lenglen
Apparently, she was a Frenchwoman. But, I still don't see any reason for some of these people to react the way they did to you...
Ooops, need to edit the above. She WAS a Frenchwoman, no "apparently" about it!


Wikipedia???:D :D
You know that Wikipedia is open to manipulation?
Most probably this entry was edited by Alwaysanut just yesterday ....

Maybe Suzanne wasn't BORN in California but in Louisiana or so.

Condi

alwaysatnet
02-12-2007, 04:42 PM
You are either very clever and putting everybody on or so thick your brain should be listed on the peridoic chart of elements as the densest matter known to man. I strongly suspect the latter.

Condoleezza
02-12-2007, 10:24 PM
You are either very clever and putting everybody on or so thick your brain should be listed on the peridoic chart of elements as the densest matter known to man. I strongly suspect the latter.

Tell me one thing:
If you think Lenglen had French citizenship why then was she a society girl in California??
There you are ....

Condi

alwaysatnet
02-13-2007, 06:35 AM
Tell me one thing:
If you think Lenglen had French citizenship why then was she a society girl in California??
There you are ....

CondiWhy would you not look at the link provided on this page and find out for yourself? She was born in France, lived in France, died in France.
How is she not French? Do you have a learning disability or are you just stubbornly ignorant? Look at the link.The kindest thing I can say is you are monumentally obtuse.

Condoleezza
02-13-2007, 12:07 PM
Why would you not look at the link provided on this page and find out for yourself? She was born in France, lived in France, died in France.
How is she not French? Do you have a learning disability or are you just stubbornly ignorant? Look at the link.The kindest thing I can say is you are monumentally obtuse.

You obviously have manipulated Wikipedia.
OK, maybe she wasn't a SOCIETY girl but a plain Jane from Wichita or so.
Why are you so fanatical about this?
What is in it for you there??:confused:

Condi

Trinity TC
02-13-2007, 03:22 PM
Open era only.

Competitions among California society girls or British upper-class girls of yesteryears are of no relevance in a modern tennis forum.

Condi
Women's tennis before the Open era wasn't affected by professionalism as much as the men's game.

Dedans Penthouse
02-13-2007, 04:13 PM
No..maaaybe she was a society girl from California.....No.....hmmm.....maybe she was from San Diego.....no.....maybe she was from: Wichita! Yeah Wichita; THAT'S the ticket!!!
Excellent call, Mr. Lovitz~!!!


You hooples! You gullible guppies!!! Can't you see the Grafinator is pulling your chain? LOL

For starters, Condi *coyly* inserting the word "surprising" into the title (in order to further embellish Graf's legend) plus Condi's "m.o." in general should've tipped you off in the first place. Hell, this was as plain as the Toucanesque probiscus (or 2 car garage--take your pick) that proudly hangs between Slashing Steffi's beady, calculating, 'hit-man-with-a-knife' hiring eyes.

Forget Wikipedia; if Condoleeza knew anything about tennis in general, or "Le Grand Beak" Suzanne Lenglen in particular, 'Con'dolezza would be aware of the particulars (such as the location) involving one of THE most famous matches in all of tennis history--the infamous 1926 challenge match played in Cannes, France between Suzanne Lenglen and Helen Wills (won by "The Beak" 6-3; 8-6). Leading up to that match played in France, Le Toucan Suzanne squawked to a friend, to the effect: "is this girl mad, thinking that she can come over to MY court and actually win?"

As it turned out, Wills, the American, was royally screwed out of the 2nd set (and most likely the match) over an increasingly nervous (and by then, brandy-nipping Lenglen) as the result of a brutal line call on set point by a European named Cyril Tolley. Even the overwhelmingly European, pro-Suzanne crowd howled the call in protest; Lenglen's shot was out. In all fairness, it should also be noted, that Lenglen had some weird calls go against her in the 1st set, but that was a set in which Lenglen won anyway. The "call" against Wills however, was made at a critical juncture in the match, with most observers (thinking Wills had already won the 2nd set) putting the challenger in the cat bird's seat over a tiring Lenglen. Instead, Lenglen (given that 'reprieve'), eventually parlayed that 'call' into victory by 'nosing' out a (by then) dispirited Wills 8-6 to take the match.

Anyway, history as we know it, often repeats itself as was the case when the (nationalized) American, Monica Seles, was screwed out of her rightful number one world ranking (not to mention her career), by another European with a penchant for big-nosed women named Gunther Parshe, who coincidentally is the stepfather to none other than--you guessed it: Condoleeza herself.

Isn't it just amazing how history can repreat itself?

The Lenglen-Wills match did have a happy ending though. After the match, after Lenglen's fans hoisted her onto their shoulders (while employing an industrial-strength gantry crane to manage her nose), the demur Wills was approached by a gentleman named Moody who introduced himself and then quietly remarked to her: "I thought you played rather well." Those in the know will recall that Helen Wills went down as one of the game's greats after winning many Grand Slam titles and entering the Hall of Fame as Helen Wills Moody.

As for the 'happy ending' to the Seles story: well, I suppose it would depend on who you ask. I'm sure Hamburg represents a 'happy ending' to some folks; for example, for the OP of this thread, a/k/a the "Wichita Lineman" by way of Hooterville, Deutchland--the one!!...the LONELY!!!: Condooleeeeeeeza~! I'll wrap this up on a happy, upbeat note:

HAIL TO THE BEAK!!!

Lenglen and Graf; hail to the two all-time great tennis legends!!! Hail to the Nostrudamisses of nostrils!!!

Hail to the tsunamis of sneeze!!!

Bearing and wearing beach towels for hankerchiefs, Lenglen & Graf (much like their nostrils) were two of a kind. Hail to the beak~!

<: ---"Hey Suzanne, mine's bigger than yours!"
<: ---"Is not!"
<: --- "Is too!"

FiveO
02-13-2007, 10:37 PM
Suzanne Lenglen biography from the International Tennis Hall of Fame:

Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen

Born: May 24, 1899

Died: July 04, 1938

Hometown: Paris, France

Citizenship: France

Handed: Right

Inducted: 1978


Grand Slam Record
French Singles 1925, 26
Doubles 1925, 26
Mixed 1925, 26


Wimbledon Singles 1919-23, 1925
Doubles 1919-23, 1925
Mixed 1920, 22, 25


Tournament Record
Olympic Gold Medal Singles 1920
Gold Medal Mixed 1920


In the days of ground-length tennis dresses, Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen played at Wimbledon with her dress cut just above the calf. She wept openly during matches, pouted, sipped brandy between sets. Some called her shocking and indecent, but she was merely ahead of time, and she brought France the greatest global sports renown it had ever known.

Right-hander Lenglen was No. 1 in 1925-26 the first years of world rankings. She won Wimbledon every year but one from 1919 through 1925, the exception being 1924, when illness led to her withdrawal after the fourth round. Her 1919 title match, at the age of 20, with 40-year-old Dorothea Douglass Chambers is one of hallmarks of tennis history.

Chambers, the seven-time champion, was swathed in stays, petticoats, high-necked shirt-waist, and a long skirt that swept the court. The young Lenglen was in her revealing dress that shocked the British at the sight of ankles and forearms. After the second set, Lenglen took some comfort from her brandy and won, 10-8, 4-6, 9-7, in a dramatic confrontation, rescuing two match points.

After her victory, Lenglen became easily the greatest drawing card tennis had known, and she was one of those who made it a major box-office attraction. Along with a magnetic personality, grace and style, she was the best woman player the world had seen.

Lenglen, born May 24, 1899, in Paris, played an all-court game such as few had excelled at. She moved with rare grace, unencumbered by the tight layers of garments others wore. She had extraordinary accuracy with her classical, rhythmic groundstrokes. For hours daily her father, Charles Lenglen, had her direct the ball at a handkerchief he moved from spot to spot. Her control was so unfailing that she thought it shameful to hit the ball into the net or beyond the line. In addition, she had so keen a sense of anticipation that she invariably was in the right position to meet her opponent's shot.

Her 1926 match against Helen Wills in a tournament at Cannes, France, caused a sensation. Tickets brought unheard-of wealth to scalpers, and the roofs and windows of apartments and hotels overlooking the court were crowded with fans. Lenglen, on the verge of collapse during the tense match, but saved by smelling salts and brandy, defeated the 20-year old Wills, 6-3, 8-6.

Lenglen's career was not free of setbacks, however. In the 1921 U.S. Championships, having lost the first set badly to Molla Mallory, Lenglen walked weeping and coughing to the umpire and said she could not continue, defaulting the match. She made up for it the next year at Wimbledon by defeating Mallory, 6-2, 6-0, in the final and did not lose another match for the remainder of her amateur career.

In the 1926 Wimbledon, Lenglen had a terrifying ordeal. She kept Queen Mary waiting in the Royal Box for her appearance when, owing to a misunderstanding or a failure of communications, Lenglen did not have the correct information about the time she was to be on court. The ghastly error was too much. She fainted and Wimbledon saw her no more as a competitor. She withdrew from the tournament, and that year went on a tour for money in the United States under the management of C.C. Pyle, winning all 38 matches against Mary K. Browne. It marked the start of professional tennis as a playing career.

At the age of 39, Lenglen died of pernicious anemia, July 4, 1938, in Paris. She was elected to the Hall of Fame in 1978. There was speculation that her health had been undermined by her long hours of practice as a young girl. But she had brought the glamour of the stage and the ballet to the court, and queues formed at tennis clubs where before there had been indifference. She had emancipated the female player from layers of starched clothing and set the short-hair style as well. During her career she won 81 singles titles (seven without the loss of a game!), 73 doubles and 8 mixed. She had brought the game of tennis into a new era.


http://www.tennisfame.com/famer.aspx?pgID=867&hof_id=201

Paris, France is a little east of California.

Condoleezza
02-14-2007, 11:23 AM
Suzanne Lenglen biography from the International Tennis Hall of Fame:

Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen

Born: May 24, 1899

Died: July 04, 1938

.... Paris, France is a little east of California.

Paris, Texas, most probably.
Care to explain why Lenglen had an English-sounding Name ("Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen") if she allegedly was French???

Condi

Dedans Penthouse
02-14-2007, 11:35 AM
Lenglen in Paris, Texas? No way.

In Paris Hilton maybe (who hasn't been?), but not Paris, Texas.

retrowagen
02-14-2007, 12:29 PM
Paris, Texas, most probably.
Care to explain why Lenglen had an English-sounding Name ("Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen") if she allegedly was French???

Condi

Condi has just played her "I'm not a Francophone" card...

Sie sollen wahrscheinlich jetzt sofort halten...

Amone
02-14-2007, 05:46 PM
Paris, Texas, most probably.
Care to explain why Lenglen had an English-sounding Name ("Suzanne Rachel Flore Lenglen") if she allegedly was French???

Condi

Condi, I just wanted to apologize for anything mean I ever said to you. You are, in comparison to some people I recently met on TTW, a soft-spoken centrist.

Condoleezza
02-24-2007, 04:41 PM
http://justjared.buzznet.com/gallery/photos.php?yr=2007&mon=02&evt=andre_agassi_steffi_graf&pic=andre-agassi-steffi-graf-03.jpg

http://justjared.buzznet.com/gallery/photos.php?yr=2007&mon=02&evt=andre_agassi_steffi_graf&pic=andre-agassi-steffi-graf-01.jpg

Condi

35ft6
02-25-2007, 11:53 AM
Her face is still busted. Nice legs, though.

Indy Tennis
02-25-2007, 01:47 PM
I've always thought Steffi was very attractive.

Andre's a lucky man.

killer
02-25-2007, 03:12 PM
Yup...that Steffi....incredible body!

llama
02-25-2007, 03:41 PM
I've always thought Steffi was attractive. "Cookie-cutter perfect" doesn't appeal to me. She has some character. She also has gorgeous hair and for a woman who's had two children, an unbelievable body.

35ft6
02-26-2007, 01:45 AM
^ I like character, too. But not necessarily Steffi's brand.

Lambsscroll
02-27-2007, 05:03 PM
Yeah she does! Shes better looking now than Ive ever seen her before.

redsoxjad
02-27-2007, 07:02 PM
Some would say...another case of the dreamboat body with the shipwrecked face.

35ft6
02-28-2007, 01:23 PM
She's a Cleveland Brown. Nice uniform, ugly helmet.

Pete.Sampras.
02-28-2007, 01:29 PM
I've always thought Steffi was very attractive.

Andre's a lucky man.
Same here ;)

sapient007
02-28-2007, 03:10 PM
http://buzznet-00.vo.llnwd.net/media/jj1/2007/02/andre_agassi_steffi_graf/andre-agassi-steffi-graf-04.jpg

man hands

Gundam
02-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Other than her nose, she is quite good looking. I think she was voted as the 'best figure' at one time in 80s or 90s.

Indy Tennis
03-01-2007, 04:00 PM
Dude, she is an old bag now. Look at her face! She looks like an old man with long hair. You guys are either ugly or desperate.

Please... She's a beautiful woman, end of story.

GRANITECHIEF
03-01-2007, 04:08 PM
Vudal would last about 12 seconds, maybe less. Steph is an amazing person, with an unbeatable body shape. Maybe not quite model quality face, but somehow i don't see that being a problem.

Indy Tennis
03-01-2007, 04:16 PM
Yeah, what a bummer it would be to look at this as you're getting ready to go out to dinner with friends.

http://i8.tinypic.com/2jaccom.jpg

10sfreak
03-01-2007, 05:42 PM
I don't know, but Steffi Graf has just never done much for me. Now Hantuchova, Sharapova, or Kirilenko, that's a different story...

Mick
03-01-2007, 06:42 PM
Agassi is a lucky man but I think Hewitt is luckier.

Lleyton Hewitt and wife

http://i15.tinypic.com/4caed6e.jpg

Condoleezza
03-02-2007, 09:29 AM
You guys are so desperate. Drooling over an old goat.

IMO, Graf still looks quite fresh:

http://www.steffi-graf.net/images/full/Lesen5.jpg
(Steffi Graf, 2005)

Condoleezza
03-02-2007, 09:30 AM
Agassi is a lucky man but I think Hewitt is luckier.

Lleyton Hewitt and wife

http://i15.tinypic.com/4caed6e.jpg

She simply doesn't look very intelligent. And that is a big turn-off ....

Condi

llama
03-02-2007, 01:15 PM
Other than her nose, she is quite good looking. I think she was voted as the 'best figure' at one time in 80s or 90s.

And that's exactly what I like about her - she could have had any plastic surgery in the world, but chooses not to. Self-confidence is a lot more beautiful that worrying that your nose isn't "perfect".

Page_Boy
03-02-2007, 01:33 PM
Graph not so good
Hewwit has done excellent for himslef far better than Clijsters !!!!

Mick
03-02-2007, 06:47 PM
She simply doesn't look very intelligent. And that is a big turn-off ....

Condi

Alrighty.

Lleyton Hewitt's wife
http://i16.tinypic.com/42o0ps2.jpg

35ft6
03-03-2007, 02:01 PM
She simply doesn't look very intelligent. And that is a big turn-off ....

Condi You can tell how intelligent somebody is just by looking at them? That's an incredible super power.

Mark P's ex-fiance was a hottie. I don't like Leyton's wife's butt chin. Blake's ex had a sick figure.

Condoleezza
03-03-2007, 03:30 PM
You can tell how intelligent somebody is just by looking at them? That's an incredible super power.
....


It isn't.
Most people can do it.
Hewitt's girlfriend doesn't exactly look as if she reads Hermann Hesse or Marcel Proust on a regular basis ....

Condi

10sfreak
03-03-2007, 04:43 PM
Agassi is a lucky man but I think Hewitt is luckier.

Lleyton Hewitt and wife

http://i15.tinypic.com/4caed6e.jpg
I second that! Hoo-waa!

G4t0
03-03-2007, 05:04 PM
Good play by Lleyton! C'Mon! But Argentinian tennis players always gets the best womens,Example: Now "pico" Monaco is with Luisana Lopilato and "Chucho" Acassuso with Agustina Cordova.

TheNatural
03-08-2007, 09:32 AM
Have you seen MARTINA HINGIS's HANDS? They would make yuours look like a llittle girl's hands.



http://buzznet-00.vo.llnwd.net/media/jj1/2007/02/andre_agassi_steffi_graf/andre-agassi-steffi-graf-04.jpg

man hands

dgrson
03-08-2007, 09:35 AM
I always wondered why with all that money she never had her nose fixed? It's the only thing that distracts from the overall appearence. Check out her pics that were in SI a few years ago.

Ripper
03-08-2007, 09:40 AM
I don't get how some people can say that Graff is hot and the same people (I think) can say Amelie Mauresmo looks like a man. They are the same type.

Azzurri
03-08-2007, 10:03 AM
I don't get how some people can say that Graff is hot and the same people (I think) can say Amelie Mauresmo looks like a man. They are the same type.

I think that maybe its because Graf looks femanine...Amelie is manly...look at her body...its a man...baby.

Condoleezza
03-08-2007, 10:53 AM
I don't get how some people can say that Graff is hot and the same people (I think) can say Amelie Mauresmo looks like a man. They are the same type.


Sure ....

http://www.ungwada.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf438.jpg


Condi

PimpMyGame
03-09-2007, 12:12 PM
Is Steffi really 35? My wife is older and looks hotter, as my avatar proves. Someone said "man hands", do we really have to stop at the hands?

Ripper
03-09-2007, 12:38 PM
I think that maybe its because Graf looks femanine...Amelie is manly...look at her body...its a man...baby.

Sorry, but Graf looks as manly as Mauresmo... baby.

PimpMyGame
03-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Is it just me or did Sabatini look a bit like a bloke aswell?

Ripper
03-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Sure ....

http://www.ungwada.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf438.jpg


Condi

Nice pic of Martina Navratilova.

Condoleezza
03-09-2007, 01:27 PM
Is Steffi really 35? My wife is older and looks hotter, as my avatar proves. ...

:D That was a good one!!!! :D :D

Steffi Graf (35)
http://home1.gte.net/cpq1wzv4/jpegs/Wellfit03_1.jpg

Condi

arnz
03-09-2007, 02:24 PM
It may be fun, but at the same time kinda ridiculous to be debating matters of taste and subjective preferences.

And chocolate ice cream is da bomb...vanilla... BLECH!!!:-D

vamosrafa15
03-09-2007, 02:40 PM
i think andre should have stuck with brooke shields :) :)

fr600
03-09-2007, 03:18 PM
nice pics..

Condoleezza
03-12-2007, 11:26 AM
http://www.hofmag.com/content/view/341/60/

Steffi Graf: Standing The Test Of Time
by Grant Gordon
HOFMAG.com Exclusive

"Just months before, she had walked away with her sixth French Open
championship. Just weeks prior, she had played in her eighth Wimbledon
final. And yet Steffi Graf walked away from the sport of tennis in
August of 1999, saying, "I have done everything I wanted to do in
tennis - I feel I have nothing left to accomplish."

That was then, at a news conference in her native Germany. At the age
of 30, she was still among the best. Seven years have passed, and now
her husband Andre Agassi, a tennis legend in his own right, has
grabbed headlines by announcing his own impending retirement upon the
conclusion of this August's US Open.

Agassi was greeted with an overwhelming response when he took to the
All England Lawn Tennis and Croquet Club for his first round match at
Wimbledon. Questions have swirled with regard to who will bear the
American flag now as it relates to men's tennis. Will the popular Andy
Roddick be able to put together a career that produces the success of
Agassi's?

Court queen: Graf ruled the tennis world for 17 years. It's a stark
contrast to Graf's farewell. She'd announced plans for retirement at
the end of the year, but surprised the sports world when she waved
good-bye shortly before the US Open was set to take place. And, upon
her departure, nobody really wondered aloud about who would take
Graf's place.

The fact is - as today's world of women's tennis will attest - nobody
could.

When Graf retired, her name was thrown in with the likes of future NFL
Hall of Famers John Elway and Barry Sanders, NHL Hall of Famer Wayne
Gretzky and NBA Hall of Famer Michael Jordan - all of them bidding
adieu to their respective sports just prior to the new millennium.

Graf's grouping with the aforementioned male superstars was a notion
never scoffed. As a multitude of mind-spinning statistics and
unquestioned intangibles attests, Graf, like Gretzky and Jordan, is
arguably the best in her sport's history. "The mental toughness puts
her right up there with the Michael Jordans and the Wayne Gretzkys and
the John Elways," tennis great Tracy Austin told the Los Angeles Times
upon Graf's retirement. "Just the top, top of their sport forever."

Blessed with her trademark forehand that spelled doom for the
opposition for nearly 17 years, Graf racked up numbers that put her
among the best - male or female. Her seasons of dominance put her into
a class unto herself.

Graf, an inductee to the International Tennis Hall of Fame in 2004,
was a ranked World Tennis Associaton player when she was just 13 years
old in 1983. Four years later, she bested future HOFer Martina
Navratilova to win her first French Open. Such was merely the
beginning of Graf's onslaught upon Grand Slam tournaments, as she'd
win 22 in her magnificent career - second only to Margaret Court's
24.

She's also third in career tournaments won, boasting 107 in all during
a career that saw her play more than 1,000 matches and win an
unbelievable 87 percent. During that 1987 season, Graf also began a
record-setting tour de force of domination. On August 17th of that
year, she became the top-ranked women's player in the world. She'd
hold tight to that ranking for a record 186 straight weeks, as she won
eight of nine Grand Slams and advanced to 13 straight Grand Slam
finals during that span. In all, her career would see her ranked No. 1
for a record 377 weeks. Through all those weeks of supremacy, Graf put
together the greatest tennis season of any woman or man.

In 1988, she became only the third woman and fifth tennis player to
win the Grand Slam - claiming the Australian Open, French Open,
Wimbledon and US Open in the same calendar year. On top of that, she
traveled to Seoul, Korea and won an Olympic Gold Medal, accomplishing
an unprecedented "Golden Slam."

Just how impressive was that feat?

Only Graf and some guy named Agassi have won all four individual Grand
Slams and a Gold Medal in a career. She did it in one year. The
closest to duplicating that feat is Belgium's Justine Henin-Hardenne,
who is still searching for a Wimbledon championship to complete a
career Golden Slam. The amazing Graf, who also won a Gold Medal in Los
Angeles in 1984 when tennis was a demonstration sport, will remain the
only answer to the Golden Slam trivia question for quite some time.

The fact is, Graf's entire career is clearly standing the test of
time. She's the only player to have won all four Grand Slams at least
four times, continuously showcasing her skills on any and all
surfaces, whether grass, clay or hard-court. Now a mother of two who
puts the same work ethic into charity work as she once did tennis,
Graf is a long forgotten standard in a sport that boasts a different
top seed upon every other Grand Slam's draw.

With the release of this year's Wimbledon seedings, Australian Open
champion Amelie Mauesmo, US Open titlist Kim Clijsters and French Open
winner Henin-Hardenne were the top three draws, with only the latter
having reached a Wimbledon final. The likes of Serena and Venus
Williams and Maria Sharapova continue successful careers in terms of
name recognition and endorsements, but the days of extended domination
of the tennis court have long since expired.

Seven years have passed since last Graf showcased a hint of that
dominance on a Grand Slam stage. As of late, the closest she's been to
a Grand Slam title has been cheering for Agassi. Soon, he'll be gone,
and he'll likely walk away arm in arm with arguably the greatest
tennis player of all time."


Condi

snapple
03-12-2007, 11:32 AM
Graf was fortunate to have arrived on the scene as Navratolova's dominance was waning and before the emergence of the Williams sisters. And then of course we all remember what happened to that other player who was collecting GS trophies before her shoulder found the sharper part of a fanatic's knife.

Ripper
03-12-2007, 11:42 AM
...of course we all remember what happened to that other player who was collecting GS trophies before her shoulder found the sharper part of a fanatic's knife.

Of course.

Condoleezza
03-12-2007, 11:53 AM
Graf was fortunate to have arrived on the scene as Navratolova's dominance was waning and before the emergence of the Williams sisters. ....

Without her 3 losses to Graf in 1989 Navratilova would have had a 70-matches winning streak. And people would talk of the best Navratilova ever.
Graf beat Navratilova so convincingly in the 1988 & 1989 Wimbledon finals (Navratilova's favourite slam and surface) that we can conclude: Navratilova was extremely lucky that Graf was born in 1969 and not in 1959. Because otherwise no one would talk much of her today.


....And then of course we all remember what happened to that other player who was collecting GS trophies before her shoulder found the sharper part of a fanatic's knife.

Seles is extremly overrated.
When she was #1 she lost 5 of 7 matches against Graf.
And in her two best years ever (1991/92) she had a WORSE winning percentage than Graf in a ELEVEN-year period (1986-96)!!!!
This fact alone lays to rest the myth of a "dominant Seles".

Only some jingoistic U.S. tennis fanatics don't get it.
So what ....

Condi

snapple
03-12-2007, 12:09 PM
Navratilova was extremely lucky that Graf was born in 1969 and not in 1959. Because otherwise no one would talk much of her today.


Graf was extremely lucky that Gunther was born in Germany and not in the U.S. Because otherwise no one would talk much of her today.

Rabbit
03-12-2007, 12:25 PM
Damn, it's deja vu all over again.

Condoleezza
03-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Graf was extremely lucky that Gunther was born in Germany and not in the U.S. Because otherwise no one would talk much of her today.

What would have been different if Günther Parche had been born in the U.S. ... ?

Condi

Condoleezza
03-12-2007, 02:57 PM
Damn, it's deja vu all over again.

Indeed it is.
As soon as someone posts something that praises the female GOAT the usual distractors (almost exclusively American, BTW) come out from under their rocks ....

Condi

Rabbit
03-12-2007, 04:41 PM
Yes, and as soon as anyone voices an opinion that differs from your "worldly" view (tongue firmly in cheek) you break out the American Card. You really should try a new tact as this has become as worn as your posts. You cover the same ground like a hamster in a wheel.

I guess your "poetry" didn't evoke any responses so you figure you'd rehash this for the thousandth time.

Condoleezza
03-12-2007, 05:22 PM
Yes, and as soon as anyone voices an opinion that differs from your "worldly" view (tongue firmly in cheek) you break out the American Card. You really should try a new tact as this has become as worn as your posts. You cover the same ground like a hamster in a wheel.

I guess your "poetry" didn't evoke any responses so you figure you'd rehash this for the thousandth time.

Well, Graf is thought to be the Greatest Of All Time.
Outside of the U.S. more than 80 %, maybe even 90 % see it that way.
In the U.S. considerably less than 50 %.
Wonder why .... :D :D :D

Condi

alwaysatnet
03-12-2007, 05:40 PM
What poll is that based on? The one in your head?

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 04:40 AM
I just watched a recap of Steffi Graf's glorious run to the FO 99 title, beating #2 Davenport, #3 Seles and #1 Hingis. Steffi was not even 30 years old that week (born on June 14, 1969).

No she is 37. Martina Navratilova made her last Wimbledon final at that age, was WTA #2 still at age 35.

I just wonder what would have been in store for Steffi if she had continued to play well into the 21st century. In 2000/01 only players like Hingis and Davenport were #1 for most of the time, in 2004 Myskina, 17-year-old Shrap and Kuznetsova won slams. Only Serena at her 2002/03 and Henin at her 2003/04 slam wins might have been to strong for a then 33/35-year-old Graf.

Sadly Graf is hetero and fell for this Agassi dude .... ;)


Condi

federerfanatic
03-13-2007, 09:20 AM
She would have been turning 30 late in 1999. She would have been trying to succeed into her 30s, that is too old, especialy since she was having trouble staying in her late 20s. Look at her results in 97-99, yeah she won the French Open in 1999 and made the Wimbledon final in 1999. She also lost in the quarters of the Australian Open 1999, U.S Open 4th round to Schnyder in 1998, 3rd round of Wimbledon to Zvereva in 1998, missed 4 straight slams before that, quarters of French to Coetzer in 1997, and 4th round of French to Coetzer of 1997. Injuries were already taking their toll on her results at ages 27, 28, and 29, what would have happened at 30 and older then? It could only get worse if she was having trouble staying healthy enough to post regularly champion-like results any longer as it was.

Yeah in 2004 the caliber wasnt that high with 3 Russian newbies all winning slams, but Steffi would have been 34 at the time of those slams, and she was vurnerable to losing to players like Coetzer, Zvereva, and Schnyder in slams at 27 and 28. Anyway the only one of the 3 who looks like a real weak slam winner now still is Myskina. Kuznetsova is not a great slam winner, but an adequate one, she has reached another slam final and won tier 1 titles since then. She has stayed in the top 5-10 range in the rankings with constance. She beat #1 Mauresmo and Sharapova to win the big Nasdaq event last year. Sharapova of course has shown to be a strong slam winner who will win atleast 5-6 slams before she is done.

Anyway the only reason 3 Russian newbies won slams in 2004 is Henin was having serious health problems, Clijsters was out injured almost the whole year, the Williams were no longer commited and focused to tennis like they were in 1999-2003, Mauresmo choked away big chances to win each of the years final 3 slams that year. and Davenport choked away big chances to win Wimbledon and the U.S Open that year.

Dedans Penthouse
03-13-2007, 10:02 AM
I just watched a recap of Steffi Graf's glorious run to the FO 99 title, beating #2 Davenport, #3 Seles and #1 Hingis.That's great! Now: get a life. :-)



Sadly Graf is hetero and fell for this AMERICAN dude .... ;)
Condi
Fixed your post for you. :-)

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 10:26 AM
That's great! Now: get a life. :-)




Fixed your post for you. :-)

I like a lot of Americans.
Agassi is among them.
And Ronald Reagan, Alexander Haig, Cap Weinberger, Ollie North, George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Rudy Guiliani, John McCain, Jack Bauer.

Condi

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 10:34 AM
She would have been turning 30 late in 1999. She would have been trying to succeed into her 30s, that is too old, especialy since she was having trouble staying in her late 20s. Look at her results in 97-99, yeah she won the French Open in 1999 and made the Wimbledon final in 1999. She also lost in the quarters of the Australian Open 1999, U.S Open 4th round to Schnyder in 1998, 3rd round of Wimbledon to Zvereva in 1998, missed 4 straight slams before that, quarters of French to Coetzer in 1997, and 4th round of French to Coetzer of 1997. Injuries were already taking their toll on her results at ages 27, 28, and 29, what would have happened at 30 and older then? ....


Not necessarily. She had severe knee problems in 1997, underwent reconstructive knee surgery and came back in 1998. She needed to adapt but was back at the end of that year, rising steadily in the rankings (overtaken the Williams sisters on her way) until she was #3 in summer of 1999. Of course she would not have been able to dominate anymore but she most certainly would have won several of the 21 slams that were played until the end of 2004. 4 or 5 at least, IMO, propelling her to a 26/27 slam career tally. And if we consider how many opportunities she lost in 90/93 (blackmail scandal) and 97/98 (knee problems) ......

Well, if someone had told me in 1989 that Graf would not be able to reach 30 slam wins I would have laughed my *** off!

Condi

Dedans Penthouse
03-13-2007, 10:48 AM
"Parshe", "Parsche", "Deutchland", "Barvarian", "Frau-dream", "knockwurst", "*Es* ist *langer*" :D :D - better don't try German ever again.
Almost EVERY word you got wrong Oh, don't worry, I'm happy in my state in life, but along the way I tried German several times and I loved it. And it was mutual. As for "getting ALMOST every word wrong"
that's because I wanted to respond "in kind" kinder! :-) But the point is, you knew what the 'correct' word was, so "mission accomplished" right Condi? It doesn't matter; Steffi is having her viner schnitzel bedded and "breaded" (two fine offspring) by an American. Oh, one other thing: we don't stab your tennis players.

And why Günther Parche might have been "jingoistic" is beyond me ....Condi
You hate my German? Well, you'll like my Latin much better especially as it applies to your rather SICK quote (which says it all about you):

res ipsa loquitur

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 10:56 AM
Oh, don't worry, I'm happy in my state in life, but along the way I tried German several times and I loved it. And it was mutual. ....

I doubt that ....

.... As for "getting ALMOST every word wrong" that's because I wanted to respond "in kind" kinder! :-) But the point is, you knew what the 'correct' word was, so "mission accomplished" right Condi? It doesn't matter; Steffi is having her viner schnitzel bedded and "breaded" (two fine offspring) by an American. ...
You hate my German? Well, you'll like my Latin much better especially as it applies to your rather SICK quote (which says it all about you):

res ipsa loquitur

Which quote?
Dunkel ist der Rede Sinn, Mr. Penthouse ...

Condi

federerfanatic
03-13-2007, 11:02 AM
Well are you saying she would have had more success staying healthy into her 30s in late 1999-end of 2004; then she did in 97-98 at only ages 27-29, when she saw limited success in slams because of health problems? Obviously to win even 4-5 slams during that period she would have had to.

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 11:13 AM
Well are you saying she would have had more success staying healthy into her 30s in late 1999-end of 2004; then she did in 97-98 at only ages 27-29, when she saw limited success in slams because of health problems? Obviously to win even 4-5 slams during that period she would have had to.

Hingis had health problems in 2002 but not in 2007.
Graf's knee was RECONSTRUCTED in 1997. I don't see any reason why she would not have won several slams in late99-end04.
Simply watch how she moves on the court in exhibition matches even today, with almost no exercising in the last years.

What people tend to forget how EXTREMELY talented Graf was.

Or as Richard Williams put it:
"There's not one girl I see playing - I don't care if her name is Martina Hingis, Venus Williams or Serena Williams - who'll be what Graf was. Steffi was a thoroughbred running and the rest are mules."

Condi

Dedans Penthouse
03-13-2007, 11:17 AM
I doubt that .... You would; and again...tsk...tsk...wrong-with-your-song. Hmmm.......Hasenpath (Rabbit Path...was THAT the name of her street?)....Zepplinheim?....just outside Frankfurt-en-Mein?....one schooled in Oberursal?...the other at F.I.S. (Frankfurt Int'n School). Forget the others; those two in particular were very mutual. Ja!....those German girls were scrumpt-diddy-umptious! Yum. You see, unlike you, my idea of "staying in" wasn't to watch re-runs of Steffi Graf matches. But that was yesterday; we all eventually move on, you wacky little Fritzynutzenhagen. And what's become of you?.....Still watching re-runs of Steffi's matches? :lol: @U!


Which quote?
Dunkel ist der Rede Sinn, Mr. Penthouse ...
CondiLeft in the dark, niece-of-Gunther? You know which quote: the one where you said you: "can't see why anyone would think Gunther Parshe to be *cough* jingoistic."

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 12:37 PM
......Hasenpath (Rabbit Path...was THAT the name of her street?)....Zepplinheim?....just outside Frankfurt-en-Mein?....one schooled in Oberursal? ...

Mr. Penthouse raping Goethe's language - and home .... :sad:


Condi

noeledmonds
03-13-2007, 12:49 PM
No she is 37. Martina Navratilova made her last Wimbledon final at that age, was WTA #2 still at age 35.
Condi


But this was Martin Navratilova not Steffi Graf :-D . You can't use the longitivity of one player to predict the performance of another player who did not have the same longitivity.

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 12:56 PM
But this was Martin Navratilova not Steffi Graf :-D . You can't use the longitivity of one player to predict the performance of another player who did not have the same longitivity.

Margaret Court still won slams at age 31, Evert at age 31, BJK at age 31.

Graf turned 32 on June 14th, 2001.
She didn't play USO 99, AO 00, FO 00, Wim 00, USO 00, AO 01 and FO 01. And she was better than Evert and BJK, most probably even better than Court.
And the opposition in 00/01 was not exactly overwhelming ...

Condi

Rabbit
03-13-2007, 01:48 PM
I like a lot of Americans.
Agassi is among them.
And Ronald Reagan, Alexander Haig, Cap Weinberger, Ollie North, George W. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Rudy Guiliani, John McCain, Jack Bauer.

Condi

Speaking of which, you said in another post that your parents named you after Condoleezza Rice. Now this is very interesting. Dr. Rice is 53 years old. Prior to her rise to public fame, she was a prof at Stanford. This was in 1999.

So, did your parents attend Stanford? If they didn't and only heard of her after her rise to political prominence, that would make you about 7 years old.

Gee, that would explain quite a bit.

scotus
03-13-2007, 02:28 PM
What people tend to forget how EXTREMELY talented Graf was.

Or as Richard Williams put it:
"There's not one girl I see playing - I don't care if her name is Martina Hingis, Venus Williams or Serena Williams - who'll be what Graf was. Steffi was a thoroughbred running and the rest are mules."

Condi

That's a very interesting quote, especially coming from the Williams sisters' father. And I agree. She was the best runner to have played women's tennis.

Gundam
03-13-2007, 03:01 PM
Speaking of which, you said in another post that your parents named you after Condoleezza Rice. Now this is very interesting. Dr. Rice is 53 years old. Prior to her rise to public fame, she was a prof at Stanford. This was in 1999.

So, did your parents attend Stanford? If they didn't and only heard of her after her rise to political prominence, that would make you about 7 years old.

Gee, that would explain quite a bit.

Hahaha, it's brilliant!
Anyway, if we can bring 1988 Graf to today, how she would play? Who would be able to give her most trouble? Sharapova, Williamses, Henin, Davenport, Mauresmo? Well, Graf may use a slightly bigger or more powerful racquet if she wants. I wasn't her fan but I can see she would do very well.

FitzRoy
03-13-2007, 04:33 PM
Dedans, you are too much.

Actually, both of you are, in a way. ;)

max
03-13-2007, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure I follow the incoherencies above. Nothing wrong with being German. Especially with a sweetheart such as Steffi Graf! :)

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 08:43 PM
Speaking of which, you said in another post that your parents named you after Condoleezza Rice. Now this is very interesting. Dr. Rice is 53 years old. Prior to her rise to public fame, she was a prof at Stanford. This was in 1999.

So, did your parents attend Stanford? If they didn't and only heard of her after her rise to political prominence, that would make you about 7 years old.

Gee, that would explain quite a bit.


Condi was in George Bush's staff during the days of German reunification (1990). She was well known as an expert for the USSR back then.

Condi

Condoleezza
03-13-2007, 08:53 PM
I'm not sure I follow the incoherencies above. Nothing wrong with being German. Especially with a sweetheart such as Steffi Graf! :)

She is that indeed!
Mr. Penthouse, though, hates Germany (was there for some months and the local girls wouldn't even look at him!) and therefore Steffi ...

Condi

Phil
03-14-2007, 02:32 AM
Condi was in George Bush's staff during the days of German reunification (1990). She was well known as an expert for the USSR back then.

Condi

You're full of it. Your parents did not name you Condoleezza. You CHOOSE the name, because Condi (the real one) is your personal diva darling of the right, just like Judy Garland and Babs Streisand were also divas to millions of gay men.

Rabbit
03-14-2007, 04:40 AM
Condi was in George Bush's staff during the days of German reunification (1990). She was well known as an expert for the USSR back then.

Condi

My most humble apologies. That would make you 17. Gee....that explains a lot.

AndrewD
03-14-2007, 06:07 AM
My most humble apologies. That would make you 17. Gee....that explains a lot.

17? That's odd, given that 'her' profile says "Date of Birth:March 22, 1978. Age: 28"

Condoleezza
03-14-2007, 08:04 AM
I fully agree. I think I read the post about 4 times.

Yes, it was very difficult to understand, with all this mauling of German words. And the course of his arguments was maeandering all the time. What did he want to say anyway?

Quite interesting was how Mr. Penthouse (well, that name .... ;) ) sees foreign female tennis players. Merely as sexual objects. Well, the likes of Americans Navratilova, Seles and the Williams sisters on the other hand ....:D

Condi

Condoleezza
03-14-2007, 08:08 AM
My most humble apologies. That would make you 17. Gee....that explains a lot.

What?
The fact that Condoleezza Rice was a member of the presidential staff in 1990 would make me 17??? :confused:

Condi

Rabbit
03-14-2007, 09:20 AM
You indicated in another thread, as a means of qualifying your underlying love for Americans and all things American all the while bashing Americans, that your parents named you after Dr. Rice.

Now, if you were born in 1978, that would put Dr. Rice at age 24? I don't know, but somebody's not telling the truth.... Unless, of course, your parents were classmates of hers while she attended graduate school. Or, by some warp in time, Dr. Rice (who wasn't Dr. Rice in 1978) was famous before she actually finished her education. Einstein theorized that such things were possible, but I didn't think it had been proven until now.

alwaysatnet
03-14-2007, 05:02 PM
Quite a mystery,this whole Condoleeza issue. Just like Hilary Clinton was named after Sir Edmund Hilary...right? ;) And by being named 'after' someone I mean both ladies,Hilary and the TW Condoleeza, were piggy backing on someone else's good name,'after' their fame was established. Why Ms. Clinton chose to lie about the source of her name is anyone's guess. Maybe she was trying to keep up with Bill's legendary creative takes on reality. For the TW Condoleeza, perhaps she appreciates the fact that the real Condi is a big fan of Dick Gould and Stanford tennis. Of course, I'm just taking a stab here.But the fake Condi has never been opposed to a well placed stab,right?

Condoleezza
03-14-2007, 11:43 PM
Quite a mystery,this whole Condoleeza issue. Just like Hilary Clinton was named after Sir Edmund Hilary...right? ;) And by being named 'after' someone I mean both ladies,Hilary and the TW Condoleeza, were piggy backing on someone else's good name,'after' their fame was established. Why Ms. Clinton chose to lie about the source of her name is anyone's guess. Maybe she was trying to keep up with Bill's legendary creative takes on reality. For the TW Condoleeza, perhaps she appreciates the fact that the real Condi is a big fan of Dick Gould and Stanford tennis. Of course, I'm just taking a stab here.But the fake Condi has never been opposed to a well placed stab,right?

.... but can't stand badly executed stabs, with ill-suited weapons, amateurishly applied and producing almost no results (only minor stab wounds that need one stitch to close).

Condi

BTW, it's "Hillary" ...

Rabbit
03-15-2007, 12:14 PM
Then by your reasoning, John Hinkley should be a free man today since he only used a .22 on President Reagan? I mean, come on, if you're going to assassinate a President, you need a caliber more well suited, like a .45 or at the very least a 9mm. Right?

And, I guess a **** at the point of a knife is nowhere near as bad as a **** at gun point, right?

You know, Condi, there are wounds that don't even bleed that are far worse than those that do. And, I don't know where you got the one stitch factoid. That sounds a bit like the old one-bullet theory. Fact is, Seles was putting a major can of whoop *** on Graf at the time of the stabbing. Fact is, Seles was the #1 player at the time of the stabbing. Fact is, Seles was dominating the field. Now you can suppose that Graf wouldn've figured Seles out and made it a see saw affair again, but that's supposition.

And, I'll bet you a dollar to a doughnut that if some whack job put a paper clip in your back at the wrong angle that it'd hurt like hell and you'd be whining that you needed a waaaaaambulance.

And, fact is, you lied about being named after Dr. Rice. And, fact is, you pull this post out of your arse every two weeks as bait. Why? Who knows...

Condoleezza
03-15-2007, 01:11 PM
Then by your reasoning, John Hinkley should be a free man today since he only used a .22 on President Reagan? I mean, come on, if you're going to assassinate a President, you need a caliber more well suited, like a .45 or at the very least a 9mm. Right?
...

Hinckley shot to kill, he admitted that.
Parche stabbed to injure, he admitted that.
And yes, Hinckley should be a free man today. After all his assassination attempt was 25 (!) years ago. In these days they are releasing some top terrorists here in Germany who have been in prison for 24 or so years. Those terrorists have killed several persons in the late 70ies in cold blood.


.... You know, Condi, there are wounds that don't even bleed that are far worse than those that do. And, I don't know where you got the one stitch factoid. That sounds a bit like the old one-bullet theory. ...

It's from the official police report.

.... Fact is, Seles was putting a major can of whoop *** on Graf at the time of the stabbing. Fact is, Seles was the #1 player at the time of the stabbing. ...

Fact is, the #1 player Seles lost 3 of 5 matches against #2 Graf.
3 of 5.
The 2 closest of those 5 matches were the 2 Seles wins!

"Major can of whoop ***", my *** ..... :D :D


.... Fact is, Seles was dominating the field. Now you can suppose that Graf wouldn've figured Seles out and made it a see saw affair again, but that's supposition. ...

No supposition - Graf HAD figured out Seles.
After all she won 3 of 5 matches against #1 Seles.
8 of 13 sets. One 6-4 6-3 win and one 6-2 6-1 *** kicking (all-time record *** kicking for a #1 player in a slam).
The other 3 matches were tough 3-setters.

Condi

alwaysatnet
03-15-2007, 05:05 PM
.... but can't stand badly executed stabs, with ill-suited weapons, amateurishly applied and producing almost no results (only minor stab wounds that need one stitch to close).

Condi

BTW, it's "Hillary" ... BTW, I don't care!

backhander
03-24-2007, 02:37 AM
Found this on youtube, just one of the many great matches that Seles and Graf played, way more exciting and better tennis than what we see today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGupLOYTZxU&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvyEnVCEl9A

Unfortunately this was the last slam Seles played prior to the stabbing.

Ripper
04-04-2007, 10:21 AM
Thoughts and comments appreciated. :D

Seles would have more Grand Slams than Graf had she not been stabbed by Graf's fan. So, she's the best... Well, you asked for it...

Nuke
04-04-2007, 10:29 AM
Seles would have more Grand Slams than Graf had she not been stabbed by Graf's fan.
Hey, hadn't heard that one before. Keen insight. :wink:

pirateofthecarribean
04-04-2007, 10:35 AM
Seles would have more Grand Slams than Graf had she not been stabbed by Graf's fan. So, she's the best... Well, you asked for it...

There are no ifs and buts in tennis. Otherwise I could just say if Serena and Venus weren't injured they would have a lot more GS titles by now. History has no ifs and buts. Monica got stabbed that was fate. So, no matter what, she still deserves 9 GS titles. I'm not trying to be cruel but she better return on tour otherwise Serena will be a big threat to her 2nd place.

Condoleezza
04-04-2007, 10:41 AM
As you may or may not know, Monica is the 2nd greatest women's player in the Open Era after Steffi with 9 GS titles and currently Serena is the 3rd greatest women's player in the Open Era with 8 GS titles. Serena vowed to not take a break until she gets 10 GS titles and, I was just wondering, since Monica has not officially retired, do you think she'll come back on tour to try stop Serena from taking over her 2nd place? :D Thoughts and comments appreciated. :D


Slams in open era (1968-2007):

1. Graf 22
2. Evert 18
2. Navratilova 18
4. Court 11
5. Seles 9
6. King 8
6. S. Williams 8

Condi

pirateofthecarribean
04-04-2007, 10:43 AM
Slams in open era (1968-2007):

1. Graf 22
2. Evert 18
2. Navratilova 18
4. Court 11
5. Seles 9
6. King 8
6. S. Williams 8

Condi

Okay, okay. But, back in the 1960s and 1970 and 1980s tennis didn't pay a lot and very few people were interested in it. Competition in tennis really started in the 1990s so Monica and Serena are still right at the top level.

Condoleezza
04-05-2007, 01:01 AM
Open era or not. Margaret Court-Smith is the greatest player, man or woman to have played the game full stop. Condoleezza has this sick stalker like affection for Graf, and will change the numbers just to place Steffi as the greatest. She only mentioned Court with 11 GS titles. But if you look at the big picture. Margaret Court won 11 Australian Open singles titles alone.

Not only 11 AO singles titles. She won the FO 5 times. Wimbledon 3 times. And the USO 5 times...That would equal 24 singles titles ....

Graf has the same number of USO titles but 4 more Wimbledons and one more FO.
Court has 7 more AOs, though.

Court won her first 7 AOs against Jan Lehane (4), Leslie Turner, Marie Esther Bueno and Nancy Richey.
Graf won her first 4 Wimbledons against Martina Navratilova (2), Gabriela Sabatini and Monica Seles. Her first FO title against Martina Navratilova.

I may be crazy but I would value Graf's 5 titles a little bit more than Court's 7. Altough Jan Lehane most probably was a hell of a player ....
:D :D :D

Condi

Condoleezza
04-05-2007, 09:27 AM
...and don't forget Seles was dominating Graf at her peak ...


I don't think you know what "to dominate someone" means, sonny ...


Graf vs. #1 Seles pre-stabbing:

Graf def. Seles 6-4 6-3 (San Antonio, February 1991)
Graf def. Seles 7-5 6-7 6-3 (Hamburg, April 1991)
Seles def. Graf 6-2 3-6 10-8 (FO, June 1992)
Graf def. Seles 6-2 6-1 (Wimbledon, July 1992)
Seles def. Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2 (AO, January 1993)

matches: 3-2 in Graf's favour
sets: 8-5 in Graf's favour


Condi

Azzurri
04-05-2007, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=Condoleezza;1359788]I don't think you know what "to dominate someone" means, sonny ...


Graf vs. #1 Seles pre-stabbing:

Graf def. Seles 6-4 6-3 (San Antonio, February 1991)
Graf def. Seles 7-5 6-7 6-3 (Hamburg, April 1991)
Seles def. Graf 6-2 3-6 10-8 (FO, June 1992)
Graf def. Seles 6-2 6-1 (Wimbledon, July 1992)
Seles def. Graf 4-6 6-3 6-2 (AO, January 1993)

matches: 3-2 in Graf's favour
sets: 8-5 in Graf's favour




Seles defeated Graf in the 1990 and 1992 French Open and the 1993 AO...BEFORE the stabbing.

I should not have said she was dominating Graf...she seemed to be her best competiton. But....she was the dominating player for almost 3 years before the stabbing. She was #1 from March of 1991 to June 1993 (right after she was stabbed). In that period Graf reclaimed #1 for like 2 weeks. She took #1 from Graf for almost 3 years.....what does that tell you?? And she was a TEENAGER!

Seles was a great player and the stabbing kept her from the game for 2 1/2 years. So you understand me, I am a Graf fan...always was. She is my all-time favorite female player. She is the greatest (IMO) to play tennis. I was basically stating that Seles was better than Hingis. She has 4 more GS than Hingis...I don't get it? How is Hingis better. And don't use the one on one arguement because Seles was not nearly the player she was before the incident. Hingis is a fine player, but not as good as Seles.

Also...don't talk down to me...I don't appreciate you saying I don't know what dominates means. You don't have to be a jerk.

An excerpt that explains it a bit better:

Seles won her first Grand Slam singles title at the French Open in 1990. Facing World No. 1 Graf in the final, she saved four set-points in a first-set tie-breaker, which she won 8-6, and went on to take the match in straight-sets. In doing so, she became the youngest-ever French Open champion at the age of 16 years, 6 months. She also won the 1990 season-ending championships, defeating Gabriela Sabatini in five sets, finishing the season ranked No. 2.

1991 was the first of two years in which Seles dominated the women's tour. She started out by winning the Australian Open in January, beating Jana Novotná in the final. In March, she replaced Graf as the World No. 1. She then successfully defended her French Open title, beating the former youngest-ever winner Arantxa Sánchez Vicario in the final. However, instead of playing at Wimbledon, she took a six-week break, blaming shin splints. But she was back in time for the U.S. Open, and won it beating Martina Navrátilová in the final to cement her position at the top of the world rankings. She also helped Yugoslavia win the Hopman Cup that year and won the season-ending championships, beating Navratilova in four sets.

1992 was an equally dominant year. She successfully defended her titles at the Australian Open, the French Open, and the U.S. Open. She also reached the final at Wimbledon, but could not manage to break Graf's dominance on the grass court surface and lost 6-2, 6-1. Some observers, however, attribute her loss to her decision to remain silent throughout the match, resulting in less penetrating shots. Two opponents (including Navrátilová in the semifinals) had strongly complained about Seles's grunts.

During the period from January 1991 to February 1993, Seles won 22 titles and reached 33 finals out of the 34 tournaments she played. She compiled a 159-12 win-loss record (92.9% winning percentage), including a 55-1 win-loss record in Grand Slam tournaments. In the broader context of her first four years on the circuit (1989-1992), Seleš had a win-loss record of 231-25 (90.2% winning percentage) and collected 30 titles. Only Evert had a better first four years in terms of winning percentage (91.1% from 1971 to 1974) and titles (34) in the open era. However, Seles was unable to maintain that high a winning percentage for the remainder of her career.

Seles was the top women's player heading into 1993. In January 1993, Seles defeated Graf in the final of the Australian Open, which was her third win in five Grand Slam matches with Graf.

If you think this is not DOMINATING then you don't know what it means

Azzurri
04-05-2007, 05:32 PM
One more thing....Graf only (I mean that loosley) won 3 majors from 90-92 (3 seasons). That is her lowest GS wins in her career (other than her first 3 and her last 3) over a 3 year span...gee...I wonder who was winning all those majors Graf was not?? SELES!

Bones08
04-05-2007, 11:04 PM
April 5, 2007, 11:38PM
RIVER OAKS INTERNATIONAL
Monica Seles has had a great run in tennis, and she wants to go out on her own terms
Driven by love of game


By DALE ROBERTSON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle



Monica Seles does not look back with anger or remorse, only with occasional regret. And Seles' regret is tempered by two truths, that she was a victim of bad luck, not bad behavior, and that her life has been almost incomprehensively wonderful.

Yes, she got stabbed in the back in the middle of a match, derailing a career that might have broken all the records. Yes, a chronic foot problem, resulting in two operations, has made these last few years frequently hellish while prolonging her official tennis swan song. But there is no hint of bitterness when she speaks.

"I had terrible luck, that's true," Seles said. "What happened to me has never happened to any (athlete). But what happened was beyond my control. I didn't do anything wrong. Even the foot ... it just happened. I'd be lying if I didn't say there were a lot of bad days, but I've always tried to roll with it and stay positive."

Seles, 33, misses competitive tennis, and that as much as anything explains this long goodbye. Almost four years after her last tour match, a first-round loss at the French Open, she remains unretired.


Taking on Navratilova
That's why she played Martina Navratilova at River Oaks on Thursday. The exhibition, which Seles won 6-7 (1), 6-2, 10-1, served as the first step to determining the when, the where and the why of the last step.

"My personal theory is, if you're retired, you're retired," Seles said. "You don't come back. And I don't feel like I'm ready to say that. I'm in such good shape. I only wish I was in this good a shape when I was playing. It's hard to accept that, just because of an injury, you're finished."

Seles dreams of playing the French Open again. The Australian and U.S. opens, too, if not Wimbledon.

She believes she has maybe five tournaments left in her reconstructed foot and, she said, "I want to make sure I'm fully prepared. The tournaments I played injured were the worst times of my life. I told myself I'd never do that again."

Wear and tear had caused a bone in the bottom of her foot to disintegrate, causing pain.

"The last three years have been so frustrating," Seles said. "For me, it's so simple. I just love to play tennis. Anyone that's been close to me can see the ups and downs I've been through, feeling that it's going to be OK, then being very disappointed and down all over again. I could write a book on rehab.

"Finally in December, when I started hitting again, I thought, 'Hey, this is feeling pretty good.' I still have to be very cautious, to take every other day off, but I called Martina and said (playing an exhibition) would be really fun. I told her, 'I know you're done, but I'm not really sure I am.' "

Navratilova sort of owed her. When she was coming out of retirement again a couple of years ago, she had recruited Seles for a pair of matches in New Zealand, winning both. Back in the day, as Seles was coming up and Navratilova was going down, they squared off 17 times in less than four years. Seles won 10, including the 1991 U.S. Open final and a Wimbledon semifinal in 1992.

Navratilova's career would become the antithesis of Seles' interrupted one, enduring and fruitful. Seles has been forced to settle with fruitful.

"What happened to Monica," Navratilova said, "was ludicrous, so unfair."

Seles collected nine Grand Slam titles, eight of them before she turned 20 — and seven of the last eight she contested before being stabbed in the back by an unemployed Steffi Graf-obsessed lathe operator in Hamburg 14 years ago this month. With Seles gone from the tour for the subsequent 2 1/2 years, Graf collected six of her record 21 majors, three more than Navratilova's total.

There are plenty of players like Seles. She invented a genre. Her two-fisted power game from the deep backcourt, accompanied by a guttural symphony of grunts, moans and shrieks, foretold where women's tennis was headed.


Beating an idol
But she would prefer to write the final chapter. And, if that's going to happen, it will have started in Houston, where the story began. In 1989, Seles, then 15, beat Chris Evert at Westside Tennis Club to claim the first of her 53 WTA titles. She remembers every detail.

"You're 15 years old, you've watched Chrissie who is kind of your idol and suddenly you're across the net from her," Seles said. "I'd lost to her pretty bad a couple months before in Boca Raton and, to just actually win a tournament, against Chrissie, that was amazing.

"Growing up, everybody says, 'Oh, Monica is going to be great, blah, blah, blah.' But, until it happens, you never really know. As a player, you have doubts. (Beating Evert) was almost a validation. I said I don't care if I ever win another tournament. At least I won one. I'll never forget taking that big (cardboard) check they used to give you in the old days onto the airplane with me. I still have it somewhere. It was for more money than I'd ever seen — $50,000. How could I forget that?"

dale.robertson@chron.com
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/4692747.html

bluetrain4
04-05-2007, 11:34 PM
I would love to see Seles play again. I don't think she'll win a tourney, but maybe a a couple of matches.

The game, obviously, has caught up to her. Women can match her pace and she isn't going to be the most mobile player out there. She'll probably be like a late-career Davenport, but one notch down. A great ball striker, but MUST be ahead in the point in order to win.

I don't want her to humiliate herself, but it would be great closure for her fans and hopefully for her.

She seems to have a great attitude about everything.

She's truly one of the all time greats. There was a thread a couple of days ago about her ranking all time, and many posters went on and on about her unprecedented stabbing by a fan and how that changed history.

I used to obsess about the stabbing and how it short changed her career. But, the fact is it happened and there's nothing anyone can do. Seles numbers are what they are. She won't pass Graf or Everet or Navratilova as an all time great, no matter if she possibly COULD have.

But, that's okay. Anyone who knows tennis knows how great she was. Now, I just want to appreciate what she did accomplish and her contribution to the game, and stop worrying about what could have been.

Bones08
04-05-2007, 11:52 PM
I would love to see Seles play again. I don't think she'll win a tourney, but maybe a a couple of matches.

The game, obviously, has caught up to her. Women can match her pace and she isn't going to be the most mobile player out there. She'll probably be like a late-career Davenport, but one notch down. A great ball striker, but MUST be ahead in the point in order to win.

I don't want her to humiliate herself, but it would be great closure for her fans and hopefully for her.

She seems to have a great attitude about everything.

She's truly one of the all time greats. There was a thread a couple of days ago about her ranking all time, and many posters went on and on about her unprecedented stabbing by a fan and how that changed history.

I used to obsess about the stabbing and how it short changed her career. But, the fact is it happened and there's nothing anyone can do. Seles numbers are what they are. She won't pass Graf or Everet or Navratilova as an all time great, no matter if she possibly COULD have.

But, that's okay. Anyone who knows tennis knows how great she was. Now, I just want to appreciate what she did accomplish and her contribution to the game, and stop worrying about what could have been.


WOW...you really write well...you should take up some newspaper job or be a columnist...

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 12:52 AM
April 5, 2007, 11:38PM
RIVER OAKS INTERNATIONAL
Monica Seles has had a great run in tennis, and she wants to go out on her own terms
Driven by love of game

By DALE ROBERTSON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle

Yes, she got stabbed in the back in the middle of a match, derailing a career that might have broken all the records.
... With Seles gone from the tour for the subsequent 2 1/2 years, Graf collected six of her record 21 majors, three more than Navratilova's total.
...

"Record 21 majors", yeah ...

Condi

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 12:58 AM
... There was a thread a couple of days ago about her ranking all time, and many posters went on and on about her unprecedented stabbing by a fan and how that changed history.

I used to obsess about the stabbing and how it short changed her career. ...

You only THINK it "changed history" and "short-changed her career".
IMO, she would have gained weight, got her injuries (shoulder, foot) and suffered from her dad dying of cancer in 93-98 anyway.
Yes, without the stabbing she could have won a few slams more.

But every player can come up with some woulda-coulda scenarios as well (Austin, Graf, Hingis). So what gives?

Condi

dukemunson
04-06-2007, 01:21 AM
be a little reasonable, she did get STABBED on a tennis court...yeah everyone deals with tragedy and injuries but let's give the woman her due as thats pretty rough...though I agree the question of superiority is no question at all, Graf was the greatest womans singles player ever...

bluetrain4
04-06-2007, 02:00 AM
You only THINK it "changed history" and "short-changed her career".
IMO, she would have gained weight, got her injuries (shoulder, foot) and suffered from her dad dying of cancer in 93-98 anyway.
Yes, without the stabbing she could have won a few slams more.

But every player can come up with some woulda-coulda scenarios as well (Austin, Graf, Hingis). So what gives?

Condi

Fact. The stabbing did short change her career.

If you read my post closely, you'll see that I accept that the stabbing was, albeit horrific, simply something that happened. Thus, as I previously expressed, Seles has no claim to any status in regards to being an all-time great than what she actually accomplished, just as a player who has serious injuries.

I'm a Seles fan. I enjoyed her game. My post was in no way a strike against your beloved Graf. As I said, Graf, Everet,and Navitralova will always be "greater" champions, because "would ofs" and "could ofs" don't count.

What gives? Nobody can say anything respectful about Seles and you go into one of your typical tirades in a bizarre effort to defend/honor someone who doesn't need any defending or additional honoring and/or dismiss (at least in my view) Seles accomplishments.

We know, you don't like the agitprop that the media has created around Seles' story. But, at least for me, recognizing Seles' greatness is simply to honor a player I liked very much. It does not serve the dual purpose of disrespecting Graf. Graf was great.

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 02:22 AM
be a little reasonable, she did get STABBED on a tennis court...yeah everyone deals with tragedy and injuries but let's give the woman her due as thats pretty rough...though I agree the question of superiority is no question at all, Graf was the greatest womans singles player ever...

I really liked and like Seles. And yes, she got a rough deal indeed. But her main rival, Steffi Graf, played under duress again and again, had tons of injuries and illnesses. She is the last person to deserve being constantly denigrated because of the Seles stabbing.

Condi

tennus
04-06-2007, 02:33 AM
Great article, Seles was certainly the measuring stick at her prime. That said, how good is Navratilova ? 50 years old and still takes a set of 33yr old Seles !:)

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 02:34 AM
Fact. The stabbing did short change her career.

If you read my post closely, you'll see that I accept that the stabbing was, albeit horrific, simply something that happened. Thus, as I previously expressed, Seles has no claim to any status in regards to being an all-time great than what she actually accomplished, just as a player who has serious injuries.

I'm a Seles fan. I enjoyed her game. My post was in no way a strike against your beloved Graf. As I said, Graf, Everet,and Navitralova will always be "greater" champions, because "would ofs" and "could ofs" don't count.

What gives? Nobody can say anything respectful about Seles and you go into one of your typical tirades in a bizarre effort to defend/honor someone who doesn't need any defending or additional honoring and/or dismiss (at least in my view) Seles accomplishments.

We know, you don't like the agitprop that the media has created around Seles' story. But, at least for me, recognizing Seles' greatness is simply to honor a player I liked very much. It does not serve the dual purpose of disrespecting Graf. Graf was great.


The suggestion that "history was changed" implies that Graf would have won CONSIDERABLY less slams without the stabbing.

I have always admitted that Steffi most probably would have won 1 or 2 slams less. And that Seles would have won 3, 4 or even 5 more (at the cost of Sanchez et al.).

I would have loved more Graf-Seles slam finals even with the risk of Graf losing some slams. Both would have profited from a rivalry, tennis would have profited.

But indeed, you can't rewrite history. Because then I would prevent Peter Graf from having his extramarital affairs which started the 1990-92 blackmail scandal which in turn brought down Steffi in the first place. The Steffi of 91 (who didn't lose a single match against Seles that year, BTW!) had nothing to do anymore with peak Steffi of 89.

This scandal wasn't Steffi fault, the stabbing wasn't Monica's fault.
Neither was Karoly Seles's cancer illness (started in 1993) and death (1998)which must have bothered Monica far more than the stabbing. But stressing the impact of the stabbing simply is more convenient in bringing down Graf.
You think it is a coincidence that Seles fans try to downplay the impact of Pa Seles's illness/death?? I don't.

Condi

Warriorroger
04-06-2007, 02:35 AM
April 5, 2007, 11:38PM
RIVER OAKS INTERNATIONAL
Monica Seles has had a great run in tennis, and she wants to go out on her own terms
Driven by love of game


By DALE ROBERTSON
Copyright 2007 Houston Chronicle



Monica Seles does not look back with anger or remorse, only with occasional regret. And Seles' regret is tempered by two truths, that she was a victim of bad luck, not bad behavior, and that her life has been almost incomprehensively wonderful.

Yes, she got stabbed in the back in the middle of a match, derailing a career that might have broken all the records. Yes, a chronic foot problem, resulting in two operations, has made these last few years frequently hellish while prolonging her official tennis swan song. But there is no hint of bitterness when she speaks.

"I had terrible luck, that's true," Seles said. "What happened to me has never happened to any (athlete). But what happened was beyond my control. I didn't do anything wrong. Even the foot ... it just happened. I'd be lying if I didn't say there were a lot of bad days, but I've always tried to roll with it and stay positive."

Seles, 33, misses competitive tennis, and that as much as anything explains this long goodbye. Almost four years after her last tour match, a first-round loss at the French Open, she remains unretired.


Taking on Navratilova
That's why she played Martina Navratilova at River Oaks on Thursday. The exhibition, which Seles won 6-7 (1), 6-2, 10-1, served as the first step to determining the when, the where and the why of the last step.

"My personal theory is, if you're retired, you're retired," Seles said. "You don't come back. And I don't feel like I'm ready to say that. I'm in such good shape. I only wish I was in this good a shape when I was playing. It's hard to accept that, just because of an injury, you're finished."

Seles dreams of playing the French Open again. The Australian and U.S. opens, too, if not Wimbledon.

She believes she has maybe five tournaments left in her reconstructed foot and, she said, "I want to make sure I'm fully prepared. The tournaments I played injured were the worst times of my life. I told myself I'd never do that again."

Wear and tear had caused a bone in the bottom of her foot to disintegrate, causing pain.

"The last three years have been so frustrating," Seles said. "For me, it's so simple. I just love to play tennis. Anyone that's been close to me can see the ups and downs I've been through, feeling that it's going to be OK, then being very disappointed and down all over again. I could write a book on rehab.

"Finally in December, when I started hitting again, I thought, 'Hey, this is feeling pretty good.' I still have to be very cautious, to take every other day off, but I called Martina and said (playing an exhibition) would be really fun. I told her, 'I know you're done, but I'm not really sure I am.' "

Navratilova sort of owed her. When she was coming out of retirement again a couple of years ago, she had recruited Seles for a pair of matches in New Zealand, winning both. Back in the day, as Seles was coming up and Navratilova was going down, they squared off 17 times in less than four years. Seles won 10, including the 1991 U.S. Open final and a Wimbledon semifinal in 1992.

Navratilova's career would become the antithesis of Seles' interrupted one, enduring and fruitful. Seles has been forced to settle with fruitful.

"What happened to Monica," Navratilova said, "was ludicrous, so unfair."

Seles collected nine Grand Slam titles, eight of them before she turned 20 — and seven of the last eight she contested before being stabbed in the back by an unemployed Steffi Graf-obsessed lathe operator in Hamburg 14 years ago this month. With Seles gone from the tour for the subsequent 2 1/2 years, Graf collected six of her record 21 majors, three more than Navratilova's total.

There are plenty of players like Seles. She invented a genre. Her two-fisted power game from the deep backcourt, accompanied by a guttural symphony of grunts, moans and shrieks, foretold where women's tennis was headed.


Beating an idol
But she would prefer to write the final chapter. And, if that's going to happen, it will have started in Houston, where the story began. In 1989, Seles, then 15, beat Chris Evert at Westside Tennis Club to claim the first of her 53 WTA titles. She remembers every detail.

"You're 15 years old, you've watched Chrissie who is kind of your idol and suddenly you're across the net from her," Seles said. "I'd lost to her pretty bad a couple months before in Boca Raton and, to just actually win a tournament, against Chrissie, that was amazing.

"Growing up, everybody says, 'Oh, Monica is going to be great, blah, blah, blah.' But, until it happens, you never really know. As a player, you have doubts. (Beating Evert) was almost a validation. I said I don't care if I ever win another tournament. At least I won one. I'll never forget taking that big (cardboard) check they used to give you in the old days onto the airplane with me. I still have it somewhere. It was for more money than I'd ever seen — $50,000. How could I forget that?"

dale.robertson@chron.com
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...s/4692747.html

Graf has 22 gs not 21, you want to say, RG 99, WI 96, FO 96, US 96 were also because of the stabbing? Come one, 1993 slams could have gone to Monica (maybe with the exception of WI), but the 1995 - 1999, were won fair and proved Graf's greatness when she beat the top 3 at RG.

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Graf has 22 gs not 21, you want to say, RG 99, WI 96, FO 96, US 96 were also because of the stabbing? Come one, 1993 slams could have gone to Monica (maybe with the exception of WI), but the 1995 - 1999, were won fair and proved Graf's greatness when she beat the top 3 at RG.


Seles beating Graf in USO 93 final?
How?
Please explain ...

Condi

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 06:04 AM
....
I should not have said she was dominating Graf...she seemed to be her best competiton. But....she was the dominating player for almost 3 years before the stabbing. She was #1 from March of 1991 to June 1993 (right after she was stabbed). In that period Graf reclaimed #1 for like 2 weeks. She took #1 from Graf for almost 3 years.....what does that tell you?? And she was a TEENAGER! ...

a) That you admitted that Seles didn't dominate Graf.
b) That Graf must have been extremely close in the rankings when she was able to regain the #1 spot "right after" Seles was stabbed.
c) That you have a problem with numbers as Seles was only #1 pre-stabbing for 109 weeks and that is a little bit more than 2 years.
d) That you don't know that Seles, Graf, Sabatini fought hard for #1 in spring and summer of 1991 (were very close in the rankings) and that Seles managed only to pull away after USO 91.

Condi

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 06:08 AM
One more thing....Graf only (I mean that loosley) won 3 majors from 90-92 (3 seasons). That is her lowest GS wins in her career (other than her first 3 and her last 3) over a 3 year span...gee...I wonder who was winning all those majors Graf was not?? SELES!

Graf was in a big slump due to the family scandal.
No wonder the 2nd-best player profited from that. What else?

Condi

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 06:17 AM
Slap, not having a go at you here, but its comments like "Best in "her" time...no doubt." that I have a problem with.. History states, that she was the "best" ever!

As for Hingis and Seles, I think they are similar in a way as I do believe that stabbing or no stabbing, Seles couldnt play with that style of game, and that kind of intensity for too much longer. I dont believe the stabbing really did anything then rob her of probably 1 or 2 more Grand Slams. ...

You mean "slams", do you?
Let me explain:
"Grand slam" is winning AO, FO, Wimbledon, USO (= slams) in the same calendar year. Graf and Court have done this, Evert and Navratilova not.

And you will be surprised: IMO, Seles would have won at least 3 more slams in 93/95 without the stabbing. Maybe even 4 or 5.
At the expense of Sanchez, Martinez, Pierce types mostly.
And - surprise! - maybe even 1 or 2 at the expense of Graf ....

Condi

bluetrain4
04-06-2007, 07:24 AM
The suggestion that "history was changed" implies that Graf would have won CONSIDERABLY less slams without the stabbing.

Yes, "history was changed" can imply what you say it would. But, I meant it literally; simply that the record books would look different, whether that means 1 more "Seles" listed under the year-by-year winners of the Slams, or 5more.

You've conceded that you like Seles. I'm telling you I am a fan of Graf. I recognize Graf as the greatest, no ifs, ands, or, buts. Other Seles fans may try to diminish Graf's record. I'm not one of them.

RafaN RichardG
04-06-2007, 07:28 AM
i think the stabbing hurt her more mentally than physically, an article i read said it was 1/4 of an inch deep, a broken bone would probably put you out for longer, and tennis players have had broken bones (nadal's left elbow)....but for someone to stab you is just crazy

Gugafan_Redux
04-06-2007, 07:31 AM
She is the last person to deserve being constantly denigrated because of the Seles stabbing.

Condi

Constantly denigrated?! No one said anything at all about Graf or her game in this thread. It was about Monica's accomplishments.

snapple
04-06-2007, 07:47 AM
Of course the stabbing changed history, the real question, which obviously can never be answered, is just how different the history books would look.

I think it's fair to say that Seles was NEVER the same player after the stabbing, BOTH mentally or physically. And Condi, whether you want to condemn her for mental frailty is your perogative but the fact remains that the Knife irrevocably damaged her on the tennis court. I do agree that Seles' playing style was not conducive to longeavity and that physical problems may very well have cropped up by her mid 20s. Though at the rate she was winning slams even another 3 to 5 healthy years would have DRAMATICALLY changed the history books. Finally, IMO a peak Seles beats a peak Graf 6 to 7 times out of 10 on any surface other than grass.

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 07:50 AM
Yes, "history was changed" can imply what you say it would. But, I meant it literally; simply that the record books would look different, whether that means 1 more "Seles" listed under the year-by-year winners of the Slams, or 5more.

You've conceded that you like Seles. I'm telling you I am a fan of Graf. I recognize Graf as the greatest, no ifs, ands, or, buts. Other Seles fans may try to diminish Graf's record. I'm not one of them.

But history is changed every day.
Even tennis history.
Tennis history was changed the day Peter Graf decided to give his 3-year-old daughter a small tennis racket. And again as he decided to betray his wife. And again as he decided to give in to blackmail. And again as the blackmail became public. And it was changed again when Steffi underwent reconstructive knee surgery in June 1997. And when she fell in love with Agassi. What if she had been lesbian? ;) Right, she would have won several slams in the 21st century. Only a small genetic manipulation ...
And tennis history was changed when Karolyi Seles was diagnosed with cancer.

We all can muse about what could have happened. Escpecially Steffi Graf could think of many, many scenarios which would have given her far more success than she had.

But without the 90-92 scandal Steffi perhaps would have won several grand slams in the early 90ies and would have retired in 1993 due to boredom. And we would never have watched how she overcame all these crises, how she beat Hingis at FO 99 and how she gained reputation for all her come-backs.

Woulda-coulda. I never ever start it. But I can play this game at least as good as all those mindless Selesians ....

Condi

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 08:00 AM
i think the stabbing hurt her more mentally than physically, an article i read said it was 1/4 of an inch deep, a broken bone would probably put you out for longer, and tennis players have had broken bones (nadal's left elbow)....but for someone to stab you is just crazy

Of course it was a severe psychological blow for her. Add to that her father's cancer (which was diagnosed in 1993; he died in 1998) and you get the picture what duress Monica had to endure.
I never seriously disputed that.

Condi

snapple
04-06-2007, 08:02 AM
he died in 199:)

Just out of curiosity, why do you keep putting a happy face on the last digit of the year of someone's death???

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 08:08 AM
Constantly denigrated?! No one said anything at all about Graf or her game in this thread. It was about Monica's accomplishments.


No, bluetrain4 mentioned posters who talked of how the stabbing "changed history". I critized those posters' view by implicating that this is a denigration of Graf's accomplishments IF we assume that those posters maintain Graf would have won considerably less slams. And that is it - a denigration.
Graf won two thirds of her career matches against Seles. With a record like this a player doesn't have to excuse that she won what she won.
These posters should ask Sanchez, Pierce or Martinez why they won their slams in 1994/95.
Not Graf.

Condi

ATPballkid
04-06-2007, 08:09 AM
Of course it was a severe psychological blow for her. Add to that her father's cancer (which was diagnosed in 1993; he died in 1998) and you get the picture what duress Monica had to endure.
I never seriously disputed that.

Condi

Parche ended Seles' incredible record of 3 straight at the Australian, French and WTA Championships and her 2 consecutively at the U.S. Open when he stabbed this teenage phenom in the back with a sharp knife.

Who was the beneficiary? The girl Parche stabbed Seles for -- Steffi Graf.

Condoleezza
04-06-2007, 08:09 AM
Just out of curiosity, why do you keep putting a happy face on the last digit of the year of someone's death???

Because a bracket like this ")" when put right after an "8" is "8)" ...

Condi

ATPballkid
04-06-2007, 08:11 AM
But history is changed every day.
Even tennis history.
Tennis history was changed the day Peter Graf decided to give his 3-year-old daughter a small tennis racket. And again as he decided to betray his wife. And again as he decided to give in to blackmail. And again as the blackmail became public. And it was changed again when Steffi underwent reconstructive knee surgery in June 1997. And when she fell in love with Agassi. What if she had been lesbian? ;) Right, she would have won several slams in the 21st century. Only a small genetic manipulation ...
And tennis history was changed when Karolyi Seles was diagnosed with cancer.

We all can muse about what could have happened. Escpecially Steffi Graf could think of many, many scenarios which would have given her far more success than she had.

But without the 90-92 scandal Steffi perhaps would have won several grand slams in the early 90ies and would have retired in 1993 due to boredom. And we would never have watched how she overcame all these crises, how she beat Hingis at FO 99 and how she gained reputation for all her come-backs.

Woulda-coulda. I never ever start it. But I can play this game at least as good as all those mindless Selesians ....

Condi

April 1993

Gunther Parche, a German supporter of #2 Steffi Graf, stabbed teenage phenom and women's #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife when Seles had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events -- and 11 of the last 14 biggest events -- in women's tennis between 1990 and 1993.

9 months later ...

January 1994

A month before the XVII Winter Olympics were to begin in Lillehammer, Norway in February 1994, Tonya Harding's ex-husband, Jeff Gillooly, clubbed fellow female figure skater Nancy Kerrigan in the knee. In the end Nancy Kerrigan went on to win the silver medal, behind Oksana Baiul of the Ukraine. Tonya Harding finished 8th and was banned from the world of figure skating by the U.S. Figure Skating Association (USFSA) a few years later.

Tennis has always been more tolerant than other sports in terms of behavior.