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View Full Version : Why?USTA Southern has just changed their USTA Southern League Rules


BeachTennis
01-29-2007, 05:27 AM
January 28th, 2007

USTA Southern has just changed their USTA Southern League Rules. NTRP tournament play will no longer be incorporated into the year-end calculations for NTRP ratings. This change is effective for the 2007 league year. The revised paragraph 3.05 is quoted below:

3.05 YEAR-END NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS AND APPEAL PROCEDURES
Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will NOT be included in the 2007 year-end ratings.


3.05B(3) States shall use State NTRP Medical Appeals Committee to adjudicate medical appeals. Medical appeals submitted from players who participated at the Sectional Championships shall be forwarded to the Southern NTRP Medical Appeals Committee.

cghipp
01-29-2007, 05:55 AM
What exactly is the point of having an NTRP tournament if it doesn't count toward your rating? This rule makes it sound like you can win any number of tournaments at any level and your ranking will remain unaffected.

tarheelbornjohn
01-29-2007, 06:31 AM
My understanding was that some people may have been using the Tournaments as a way to keep their rating down (i.e. pay 30 bucks and lose to the 3.5 player in the 4.0 draw and it will not hurt your team or get you moved up). They are also just so different of formats. When I play in both the singles and doubles draws I have played 4 matches in one day and 7-8 matches in two days.

I just don't see a perfect system. I think all matches should be counted. However, they could be cleaning up of the average statistics used. If someone had enough matches, you could use a trimed statistic that drops the top 10%ile and bottom 10%ile of their performance to get a more stable measure of their level.

When someone sandbags, it effects everyone in the system, not just themselves. The one that gets the win over a player close to a bump ends up looking better in the system, then everyone they play and lose to looks better than they really are. The other way has it when someone actually beats fair and square the one sandbagging, it does not hurt them (risk getting bumped) as much as it should. If you used a trimed statistic the sandbagger would have to lose even more matches to make a difference and the one getting the sandbagger role over would not be effected as it would be trimed out of the average. This would also get rid of the freakishly good day or freakishly bad days scores as well.

cghipp
01-29-2007, 06:32 AM
Makes sense to me - let's do it!

andfor
01-29-2007, 06:44 AM
You should ask the Southern's what unpublished rules they have made up for 2007. We would all like to know. If you don't know what I am talking about here's an example you won't find published anywhere, "if you are a 5.0 but live in an area where there are not enough 5.0's to make a team you can ask to and be approved to play 4.5". Here's another, "if you play NCAA Division 1 Tennis on a ranked team even though the NTRP guidelines say you should be 6.0 if you do not have a outstanding USTA junior record but are only a State Champion in High School (H.S. does not count to USTA NTRP) you can play 4.5".

TriCitiesTennis
01-29-2007, 09:02 PM
I am from the Tri-Cities, TN area and have been traveling to NC, SC, GA, AL and Kentucky to play in tournaments in order to achieve a higher ranking. I am trying to make the 1.0 jump from 3.0 to 4.0 because my strokes have come back to me from my past.

If this news is accurate that the USTA will no longer consider tournaments in a players ratings, then I will no longer be inclined to play in tournaments. It would be pointless. Who cares who wins if the win doesn't mean anything.

Cindysphinx
01-30-2007, 04:40 AM
I agree that this is a weird and undesireable change.

Come on. Who would really enter tournaments, pay money, and waste everyone's time and deliberately tank them solely to keep a lower ranking for league play? Wouldn't it be easier to join a second league team and tank a few matches that way?

Besides, what about the opposite problem -- people who sandbag league play so they can bring home the bling at a tournament?

Nah, this isn't a great idea, IMHO.

Ash Doyle
01-30-2007, 05:15 AM
I don't like this at all. I only played league as practice for the tournaments.

How are they going to ensure players play at their correct level in tournaments now? If someone plays only tournaments, does this mean their rating will never be adjusted? This is not good. I'm in NC, and from what I've seen far more people play tournaments than league.

TriCitiesTennis
01-30-2007, 07:10 AM
January 28th, 2007

USTA Southern has just changed their USTA Southern League Rules. NTRP tournament play will no longer be incorporated into the year-end calculations for NTRP ratings. This change is effective for the 2007 league year. The revised paragraph 3.05 is quoted below:

3.05 YEAR-END NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS AND APPEAL PROCEDURES
Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will NOT be included in the 2007 year-end ratings.


3.05B(3) States shall use State NTRP Medical Appeals Committee to adjudicate medical appeals. Medical appeals submitted from players who participated at the Sectional Championships shall be forwarded to the Southern NTRP Medical Appeals Committee.


Can you link me to the page where this was found. Im trying to get details on this before I waste $200+ on hotels next weekend.

TriCitiesTennis
01-30-2007, 07:19 AM
After doing some research this guy has either gotten bad information or was full of **** to begin with.

You can do a google search for "USTA Southern Section 3.05B" and you will be able to pull up the rule he is referencing.

www.corta.org/userfiles/file/pdf/2007%20Southern%20League%20Regulations.pdf

That link may or may not get you there, but the google search will.

As quoted from site:

MATCH RESULTS FROM NTRP TOURNAMENTS IN TENNIS LINK WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE 2007 YEAR END RATINGS

As expected I thought this was a post of bad info....USTA has just this year come out with the "T" rating which is a rating given to players who play mostly tournament matches.

DANMAN
01-30-2007, 07:33 AM
I actually think the original poster is correct. I played at the BMW combo sectionals tournament and heard this from the tournament staff. Several 5.0s here got bumped down to 4.5 with a T rating, and they said that will not be happening again because tournament matches will not count in 2007.

Rabbit
01-30-2007, 10:17 AM
I am from the Tri-Cities, TN area and have been traveling to NC, SC, GA, AL and Kentucky to play in tournaments in order to achieve a higher ranking. I am trying to make the 1.0 jump from 3.0 to 4.0 because my strokes have come back to me from my past.

If this news is accurate that the USTA will no longer consider tournaments in a players ratings, then I will no longer be inclined to play in tournaments. It would be pointless. Who cares who wins if the win doesn't mean anything.

Be advised that you don't have to try very hard to get your ranking moved up. There are two options. Play a USTA sanctioned 4.0 tournament and win a match or two and play on a League team and win a match. If you win a match at 4.0, you will get bumped. The other option is to appeal your ranking. You can appeal it upward although I've only ever heard of one case of this.

My advice to any player is to play as low as you can. The lower the number, the more people compete and the more different competition you can enjoy. In many communities, where 5.5 was once a death sentence and then 5.0, now 4.5 is a death sentence. There just aren't any teams.

cghipp
01-30-2007, 10:37 AM
If you win a match at 4.0, you will get bumped. The other option is to appeal your ranking. You can appeal it upward although I've only ever heard of one case of this.

Not necessarily so. I won several matches at 4.0 singles and 8.5 doubles and wasn't bumped to 4.0. I even appealed to have it raised and was denied.

Rabbit
01-30-2007, 10:43 AM
Well, that all depends on who you beat. If they were also playing up, you won't get bumped. If they were verified 4.0s, keep doing it and there's no way you won't get bumped.

I never understand why anyone would appeal to get bumped up. You can always play up, but you can't play down.

cghipp
01-30-2007, 10:50 AM
Well, that all depends on who you beat. If they were also playing up, you won't get bumped. If they were verified 4.0s, keep doing it and there's no way you won't get bumped.

I never understand why anyone would appeal to get bumped up. You can always play up, but you can't play down.The two singles matches were verified 4.0 players, and the 8.5 match was myself and a 4.0 against a 4.0 and a 4.5. I'm going to try harder this season!

aldekeuk
01-30-2007, 12:11 PM
The original poster is correct. The info can be found at the following site
http://www.nctennis.com/pdffiles/USALeagueRegsSouthern.pdf

And for the record, I have run across a couple players who play tournaments towards the end of the year and tank their matches to help ensure they don't get bumped. Pretty crazy and one of the guys traveled 90 mins each way to the tournament to do so...

Jack the Hack
01-30-2007, 01:15 PM
The original poster is correct. The info can be found at the following site
http://www.nctennis.com/pdffiles/USALeagueRegsSouthern.pdf

And for the record, I have run across a couple players who play tournaments towards the end of the year and tank their matches to help ensure they don't get bumped. Pretty crazy and one of the guys traveled 90 mins each way to the tournament to do so...

Since the NTRP system is administered at the National level, I thought it was suspicious that each section would have different rules regarding how the ratings are calculated. Therefore, I decided to go directly to the source. Here is what the OFFICIAL Southern Section USTA webpage says:

3.05 YEAR-END NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS AND APPEAL PROCEDURES
Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will be included in the 2007 year-end ratings.

http://www.southern.usta.com/usaleaguetennis/custom.sps?iType=987&icustompageid=14092

Since the www.nctennis.com site is also supposed to be affiliated with the USTA, I sent them the following e-mail:

Greetings,

In a recent tennis message board posting, a person from the Southern section stated that NTRP tournament results would no longer be used when calculating the year end ratings. As proof of this change, they cited the PDF available on your website here:

http://www.nctennis.com/pdffiles/USALeagueRegsSouthern.pdf

This document says:

"3.05 YEAR-END NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS AND APPEAL PROCEDURES
Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System

and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will NOT be included in

the 2007 year-end ratings."

However, if you go to the main Southern section website and look at the League regulations for 2007, it says the opposite:

http://www.southern.usta.com/usaleaguetennis/custom.sps?iType=987&icustompageid=14092

"3.05 YEAR-END NTRP COMPUTER RATINGS AND APPEAL PROCEDURES
Players may appeal their NTRP rating in accordance with the procedures of the USTA NTRP Computer Rating System and their State Appeal Procedures. Match results from NTRP Tournaments in TennisLink will be included in the 2007 year-end ratings."

So, which one is correct? Also, if you truly aren't using NTRP tournament results in the rating calculation, why has that changed? Are other sections doing this also? Isn't the NTRP (National Tennis Rating Program) administered on a national level so that ratings are consistent throughout the country?

I look forward to your reply!

I will post their answer when (if?) they reply.

BeachTennis
01-30-2007, 04:03 PM
There were several reasons for the decision.

1. Players can self-rate and enter a tournament without going thru our self-rate process.

2. When levels do not have enough for a draw TD's will combine levels to make th draw. This causes a problem with the ratings of the players because their levels are too far apart.

3. If a player plays 20 mixed doubles matches and two tournament matches then their rating comes from the two matches.

4. As the state league coordinators(and myself) have looked at this data over the past several years it is causing more harm than good because of the addition of bad data.

Ash Doyle
01-31-2007, 05:44 AM
Jack the Hack, please remember to post any reply you get to your email. I'm very interested in the response.

Are you in NC?

Jack the Hack
01-31-2007, 10:14 AM
Jack the Hack, please remember to post any reply you get to your email. I'm very interested in the response.

Are you in NC?

Ash,

The communication so far has not been very illuminating. However, here is what the exchanges have been so far, starting with Nell Barksdale's reply to my original e-mail posted above. (Nell is the USTA Director of Adult League Tennis for North Carolina, and her e-mail address and profile are on the nctennis.com website):

From: Nell Barksdale [mailto:nell@nctennis.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 3:52 PM
To: Jack
Subject: RE: NTRP Ratings: Do tournaments count or not?

Southern Tennis changed their regs regarding this Wednesday January 24. New Regs are on our website, leagues, adult/senior. Regs are there.

From: Jack
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 6:59 PM
To: nell@nctennis.com
Subject: RE: NTRP Ratings: Do tournaments count or not?


Nell,

Thank you for the reply!

Could you please elaborate a little on this decision?

Why was this change made?

Are other sections doing this also?

What is going to happen to the relevance of NTRP tournaments if they no longer count in the rating calculation?

I have some strong opinions about this subject, but I want to understand the reasons why the decision was made before I make a judgment. I appreciate your assistance in this matter.

Regards,

~ Jack

From: Nell Barksdale [mailto:nell@nctennis.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:52 AM
To: Jack
Subject: RE: NTRP Ratings: Do tournaments count or not?


Jack I have sent your questions to Marilyn Sherman, Sectional League Coordinator, so she can respond as to why Southern made this decision. She should respond to you sap. Thanks.

I thought it was a little odd that Nell would not know the reasoning behind the rule change, but hopefully Marilyn will be able to communicate more effectively. I'll post her reply when it arrives.

As to your residency question, no I don't live in the Southern section... so I guess I should keep my nose out. However, as a heavy USTA League and tournament participant (I've played on 4 League teams and in 28 tournaments over the past 2 years), I do have an vested interest in the rating system and it's uniformity across the US. By the very name, National Tennis Rating Program, it is supposed to be a system that is the same across the country. Therefore, it really irks me if one section is able to change rules so the ratings are calculated differently than in another section - that seems to defeat the very purpose of a national system.

I would equate this situation to the ability for sections to determine if dynamic disqualifications will count in the sectional championships or not for USTA League. Last year, sections had the ability to make this decision, which was unfair because it meant that it was easier for one section to allow over-level players to advance to Nationals than for other sections. If you had a self rated ringer in one of these "loose" sections, you could basically hide him or her on the team during the local league and playoff (playing just the minimum amount of matches) before being unleashed in the Sectional and National tournaments. Since most teams have to bring out their best players at Sectionals to advance, giving them a free pass with no disqualification consequences seems bizarre since that is where you would likely see their true level displayed.

Anyway, here are some of my thoughts on BeachTennis' points:

1. Players can self-rate and enter a tournament without going thru our self-rate process.

The self-rating "process" for USTA League is hardly well defined. I can cite at least 3 different examples of how the USTA did not enforce it's own self rating guidelines last year in 3 different sections. (In fact, in one section, the league coordinator reportedly OK'ed a person to play at a lower level despite clear evidence that they were two levels higher and they did not report all of their experience on the self-rating form.)

2. When levels do not have enough for a draw TD's will combine levels to make th draw. This causes a problem with the ratings of the players because their levels are too far apart.

Tournament directors do combine events sometimes, even in sanctioned events where the practice is discouraged. However, if a 4.0 and 4.5 event were combined, how are the results any different than a 4.5 tournament where the draw is filled with several 4.0 players "playing up"? The system is supposed to be able to handle these variations.

3. If a player plays 20 mixed doubles matches and two tournament matches then their rating comes from the two matches.

This is a good point. However, I would argue that the two tournament matches (if in singles) might be a better determination of that person's true level. In any regard, why not change the rule to count the mixed doubles matches also instead of throwing out the tournament results?

4. As the state league coordinators(and myself) have looked at this data over the past several years it is causing more harm than good because of the addition of bad data.

I would have to defer to the data you've seen... however, isn't more data better than less? If somebody plays 10 League matches and 10 tournament matches, wouldn't I have a better idea of their level from 20 total matches rather than just 10? I need more information on this before I'm convinced that the tournament results should be thrown out... especially if this rule is not consistant across the country.

darkblue
01-31-2007, 10:20 AM
oh great - now i don't have to worry about
spending $$ to put some losses on my record.

csb
01-31-2007, 10:53 AM
Does anyone know if Mid-Atlantic does the same thing? If so its ridiculous.
I plan to play in a 3.5 adult league and in a couple 3.5 ntrp tournaments.Why
should some matches count and some not? I think the usta needs to step in.
I believe it is a requirement to be a usta member to play in ntrp tournaments and in league play. So how does a local section have the right to change the rules.
The usta claims membership gives you the opportunity to play in usta leagues and tournaments. If the tournaments don't count how about a refund on part of my dues.

oldguysrule
01-31-2007, 10:59 AM
Here is the opinion of the Texas Section League Coordinator in an email exchange with me:

"We in Texas think that the more information that goes into a players rating, the better the rating will be. In the next two years, the tournaments, like the ratings will be dynamic and enter into a players rating all year, not just at the end of the year. Southern may choose not to use it, but our League Committee thought using NTRP tournaments was great." (emphasis added by me)

I agree with Jack...the decision by Southern dilutes the value of a "National" rating system. Maybe they will reconsider given the feedback exhibited here.

Cindysphinx
01-31-2007, 12:17 PM
Maybe they should issue several ratings to all players.

Say I play 3 tournament matches, 20 women's league matches, and 10 mixed doubles matches.

Why not just calculate each rating separately, so I might be 3.0 T, 3.5 W (for women's) and 3.0 M? Those ratings would dictate my level depending on the event I enter.

Problem solved.

spot
01-31-2007, 12:24 PM
I think that its just a natural problem for the USTA. the problem they have is that once a players rating gets too high- a player would be no longer allowed to play on the same team as his friends. I know that if I had the choice between losing a couple of tournaments or having to start over with a new team I would probably choose to lose a couple of tournaments. I don't know that there is really a good solution considering some people think that the leagues are all that matters and the tournaments are virtually irrelevant where other people think of it the other way around.

Ash Doyle
01-31-2007, 01:20 PM
It's official. NCTennis.com has it stated on their front page now. I, for one, think this is a horrible idea. Apparently, the USTA doesn't care about NTRP tournaments nearly as much as they care about leagues. That disappoints me because I have the exact opposite opinion...and so do all the other tennis players I know in my area.

spot
01-31-2007, 02:46 PM
I don't know that it is possible to stop sandbagging in tournaments. I absolutely believe that someone would lose 3 smaller tournaments in order to win 1 big one. In leagues people don't lose on purpose because it lets the team down- when all that matters to people is personal glory then I think that it is just a losing effort to try and stop sandbagging.

Jack the Hack
01-31-2007, 03:14 PM
In leagues people don't lose on purpose because it lets the team down...

spot,

On the contrary, teams will have their better players throw games or matches on purpose during the season to avoid getting "strikes" within the dynamic disqualification system. This is usually done when a there is nothing at stake (ie, the team win is already decided or the team has already clinched a playoff position).

I've personally seen more sandbagging and NTRP manipulation in USTA League than in tournaments. There are no major NTRP tournaments on a national scale, but in USTA League, if you fill your team with the right players, you can win a "National Championship". That prospect has caused many, many teams to cheat in ways that an individual wouldn't necessarily do.

tennis-n-sc
01-31-2007, 05:51 PM
Jack the Hack, I have found that the Southern Section is very vague in what they put in print to USTA members. I've never been able to get a straight answer out of them on most anything. They seem as detached from the general membership as the national office. Pity. Were it not for the general membership across the nation, there would be no need for the existence of USTA, as I see it. I once had a strong opinion on an issue and brought it before the section (Marylin). The response I received was for me to come to the annual sectional meeting and bring it up there. I hope you have better luck.

mctennis
01-31-2007, 06:09 PM
I do hate the USTA. I've stopped belonging and will not join again.

MordredSJT
01-31-2007, 06:26 PM
Coming from a different area of the country into the Southern section this past year...I have never seen so much behind the scenes machinations in order to insure people's ratings (even up to purposefully reporting scores incorrectly, or reporting scores for tournament matches that never actually took place). Some of these people take league play waaaay too seriously in my opinion.

As someone who tries to make money running tournaments, I've also run into a lot of people who flat out won't play in tournaments because they don't want it to affect their rating. Putting together a decent open division is practically impossible. The good players don't want to play if someone better than them is playing...either because they don't want to lose, or they don't want to risk winning and then getting bumped up so they can't play on their team next season.

goober
01-31-2007, 06:51 PM
As someone who tries to make money running tournaments, I've also run into a lot of people who flat out won't play in tournaments because they don't want it to affect their rating. Putting together a decent open division is practically impossible. The good players don't want to play if someone better than them is playing...either because they don't want to lose, or they don't want to risk winning and then getting bumped up so they can't play on their team next season.

Have you tried running nonUSTA tournaments? Personally I would quit playing USTA tourneys and I still might anyhow, if there were a viable tournament alternative. There are a couple nonUSTA tourneys here and there but nothing substantial.

MordredSJT
02-01-2007, 12:11 AM
We do have non-sanctioned tournaments sometimes. The thing is that the USTA apparently rates tennis associations based upon certain criteria, and one of them is the number of sanctioned tournament matches played per year. That then determines things like available grant money...

Jack the Hack
02-02-2007, 03:03 PM
OK, here is the response that I got from Marilyn this afternoon and my further reply:

From: Marilyn Sherman [mailto:Sherman@sta.usta.com]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:08 PM
To: nell@nctennis.com; Jack
Cc:
Subject: RE: NTRP Ratings: Do tournaments count or not?

We are in process of writing a statement regarding this change but here’s a brief explanation:

The states and Southern Adult League Committee voted in 2003-2007 to use NTRP tournament data. In those same years, they voted not to use age group or combo data. The sections do not have a choice in using adult, senior, mixed, super senior data.

While the initial vote in early December was to include NTRP data for 07 year end ratings, several cases came to light that indicated that the tournament data was not improving ratings but in too many cases were producing a lower or higher rating than years of league history indicated. The states majority swung significantly the other way and the Adult League Committee voted to revise the 07 regulations to exclude NTRP tournament data.

Marilyn Sherman
Director of Adult Tennis
USTA Southern
5685 Spalding Drive
Norcross, GA 30092
770-368-8200 ext. 103
Direct Line: 678-527-2103
Fax: 770-368-9091
sherman@sta.usta.com

From: Jack
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:55 PM
To: 'Marilyn Sherman'
Cc: nell@nctennis.com
Subject: RE: NTRP Ratings: Do tournaments count or not?


Marilyn,

Thank you for your reply.

This is an odd decision because it would seem like more data is better than less when building a rating. In fact, the last line of the National NTRP Guidebook says (in bold and italics):

There is no substitute for match results as a measure of playing ability.

(http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_12277.pdf?4/3/2006%203:20:38%20PM)

If a player plays 10 USTA League matches and 10 USTA NTRP tournament matches, it seems like you would get a better rating calculation from including all 20 matches rather than just 10. Also, when players play in NTRP tournaments, they often expose themselves to opponents that are rated higher in the system by "playing up" a category (something that doesn't happen within League matches unless the player plays in a higher level League also). If a player is faring well against higher rated opponents in tournaments, I believe this should be reflected in the year end ratings.

I do understand that some unscrupulous players will purposely lose tournament matches in order to manipulate their ratings. However, I believe that this is not a regular or common behavior... and furthermore, that a different method of catching these types of infractions can be devised. I should also add that I've seen individuals and teams do this within USTA League also, so it's not just occurring in tournaments. I'm not sure if the NTRP system does this already, but why not have the computer throw out the highest and lowest "abnormal" scores from the calculation instead of eliminating ALL of the tournament match scores?

Also, I have learned that not all USTA Sections are eliminating the NTRP tournament play from their ratings calculations like Southern is. When an acquaintance heard about this situation, he e-mailed the Texas Section League Coordinator, and got this response:

"We in Texas think that the more information that goes into a players rating, the better the rating will be. In the next two years, the tournaments, like the ratings will be dynamic and enter into a players rating all year, not just at the end of the year. Southern may choose not to use it, but our League Committee thought using NTRP tournaments was great."

If Sections have the ability to choose how the NTRP ratings are calculated, I have serious concerns regarding the uniformity of the system across the country. For instance, now players in other Sections can either be penalized or rewarded in their ratings in a way that is not available within the Southern Section.

This situation also brings up the question of relevance with the NTRP tournaments. If the tournaments are not being used to determine ratings, is it possible for someone to play 5.0 NTRP events successfully, never generate a rating, and then self-rate at 3.5 or 4.0? If a person doesn't play USTA League, but is interested in generating an NTRP rating through tournaments, how will they do this now?

Maybe my circle of friends is too small, but everyone that I've talked to about this situation has been against the change. I suspect that if you took a poll of USTA members in the Southern section, you may find that this is not a popular decision and it's going to take some good persuasion to get people to see any potential benefits. Perhaps we are not seeing every angle of the debate here, and I would like to be enlightened.

Therefore, could you please further illuminate the details of this decision... or at least forward my input to the Adult League Committee for consideration in this matter?

Thanks!

tennis-n-sc
02-02-2007, 04:16 PM
Hack, I anxiously await the reply. ;)

bewmson
02-02-2007, 07:00 PM
Not necessarily so. I won several matches at 4.0 singles and 8.5 doubles and wasn't bumped to 4.0. I even appealed to have it raised and was denied.

Well,I know this girl who played at 3.5 in league and tournaments. She didn't get bumped to 4.0, so she appealed and got a 4.0....duh!!! Why would you do that; except for ego pleasure. Think of how much you could help a combo team if you didn't get bumped. Why appeal?

bewmson
02-02-2007, 07:03 PM
I think that its just a natural problem for the USTA. the problem they have is that once a players rating gets too high- a player would be no longer allowed to play on the same team as his friends. I know that if I had the choice between losing a couple of tournaments or having to start over with a new team I would probably choose to lose a couple of tournaments. I don't know that there is really a good solution considering some people think that the leagues are all that matters and the tournaments are virtually irrelevant where other people think of it the other way around.

This is crazy! I hate to lose. I would never tank a match so I could retain my rating. Play where you are supposed to play.

TriCitiesTennis
02-03-2007, 11:46 PM
If you have a problem with the USTA taking away the tournament calculations in your final year end NTRP rating, then send your concerns to Marilyn...

sherman@sta.usta.com

JLyon
02-05-2007, 07:54 PM
I love playing League Tennis but the rating system is a joke right now. They hand out appeals like it is candy. For instance in Southern Section a player in 2006 won every match in local league, district championships, and all matches at Sectionals. Gets bumped to 5.0, appeals and guess what back down to 4.5 due to the fact rating was in appeal zone.
The San Antonio Team that won Nationals had a Singles player 1 year removed from playing #3 at ACU (Top 15 D2) which should mean automatic 5.5 but plays 4.5 as well as plenty of open tournaments beating 5.0 and 5.5's consistently.
NTRP has become a joke due to the tanking and ease of getting appeals.

BeachTennis
02-13-2007, 09:29 AM
The states and Southern Adult League Committee decided to use NTRP tournament data in 2003-2006. In those same years, they opted not to use age group or combo data because of the frequent disparity between player levels. The sections do not have a choice in using adult, senior, mixed, or super senior data.

While the initial intent was to include NTRP data for 07 year end ratings, several cases came to light in November 06 that indicated that the tournament data was not improving ratings but, in too many cases was producing a lower or higher rating than years of league history indicated to be appropriate.

Overall NTRP Tournament participation in the Southern Section has decreased. Player concern that participating in tournaments would impact their NTRP rating has been identified as a leading factor. Consequently, the Adult League Committee voted to revise the 07 regulations to exclude NTRP tournament data from the 2007 Southern year end ratings.

NTRP Tournaments were created to provide additional competition for players and to provide a vehicle to earn state and sectional “rankings” via tournament play. Many players confuse “rankings” with “ratings”. Points are accumulated by participating in NTRP Tournaments toward state and/or sectional rankings. Players earn more points depending on the round that they reach in the tournament: for instance, a 300 point Southern NTRP Championship tournament earns 300 points for the champion, 250 points for the finalist, 215 points for 3rd place, 200 points for 4th place, 150 points for 5-8 place, etc. Your state rankings may have different requirements and point values but basically are handled the same way if your state uses a “points per round” system. Currently, there are no national NTRP Tournament competitions. For the Southern and State NTRP and Age Group Tournament Schedules, go to www.southerntennis.com and the State Association websites.

JLyon
02-13-2007, 09:38 AM
even if they still use NTRP tournaments an easy way around it is to just play open level tournaments and beat up on 5.0/5.5 while staying a 4.5. Example look at 2006 4.5 National Champs and their Top Singles player. He is now a Benchmark 5.0 but in 2006 he beat plenty of 5.0/5,5 players in Open Tournaments, but no matches would hurt his rating.

Netbudda
02-14-2007, 09:24 AM
I have run across a couple players who play tournaments towards the end of the year and tank their matches to help ensure they don't get bumped. Pretty crazy and one of the guys traveled 90 mins each way to the tournament to do so...

Some people I know that are legit 4.5's ( just bumped up this year ) have already decided to Tank the season in order to get bumped back down to 4.0

andfor
02-15-2007, 09:07 AM
Some people I know that are legit 4.5's ( just bumped up this year ) have already decided to Tank the season in order to get bumped back down to 4.0

Not surprising. Although tanking to get moved down is not in the spirit of the system I think I understand the rational. Not that what I believe justifies tanking here my take. If you get moved up from 4.0 to 4.5 or 4.5 to 5.0 the range of players and the quality of players at the higher end of the group you have been moved up to renders you not competitive. The range of player at 4.5 and 5.0 is huge now. I know for a fact if you are just a very good 4.5 who gets moved to 5.0 in most cases the most established players at 5.0 will kill you. I also know some guys at 5.0 who can't even get on a 5.0 team because they can't win matches even though the USTA says they are 5.0s.

I still believe an alternative to the problem is to add another age group in the system. Like the seniors have NTRP at 50 and older and Super Seniors at 60 and over why not have NTRP add a veterans class NTRP at 35 and over?

raiden031
02-15-2007, 09:10 AM
Not surprising. Although tanking to get moved down is not in the spirit of the system I think I understand the rational. Not that what I believe justifies tanking here my take. If you get moved up from 4.0 to 4.5 or 4.5 to 5.0 the range of players and the quality of players at the higher end of the group you have been moved up to renders you not competitive. The range of player at 4.5 and 5.0 is huge now. I know for a fact if you are just a very good 4.5 who gets moved to 5.0 in most cases the most established players at 5.0 will kill you. I also know some guys at 5.0 who can't even get on a 5.0 team because they can't win matches even though the USTA says they are 5.0s.

I still believe an alternative to the problem is to add another age group in the system. Like the seniors have NTRP at 50 and older and Super Seniors at 60 and over why not have NTRP add a veterans class NTRP at 35 and over?

Probably because the high end 5.0s are above 5.0 but have no choice but to play 5.0 due to a lack of available leagues, making the true 5.0s look weak.

spiderman123
02-15-2007, 09:39 AM
Some people I know that are legit 4.5's ( just bumped up this year ) have already decided to Tank the season in order to get bumped back down to 4.0

I can never understand this mentality. Have they lost their drive to improve their game? What makes them lose so that they can win? Forget about cheating the system, they are cheating themselves and they cannot escape that. They will get bumped up, if they lose badly, they will get bumped down (only if there are no players tanking in that group.) Is it that tough to understand? Winning 25% of matches in a higher group feeds my ego better than winning 75% in a lower group. This is sick.

We need a better ranking algorithm to take care of such cases. The system should be able to identify such potential tankers and then correct the results of others to minimize the damage.

SunDog
02-15-2007, 12:50 PM
I agree with a lot of what Andy says - especially on the wide range of talent within a division. My solution, however would be the additions of an X.25 and an X.75 division. Everyone would automatically be more competetive - and that would eliminate the desire of all but the lamest of the lame to misrepresent themselves on the court.

I won almost all my 3.5 matches - and some 4.0 matches when I was a 3.5 (started out as a verified 3.0). It took me forever to get bumped to actual 4.0 - and now that I am hear - I probably win around the same percentage of 4.0 matches as I did when I was 3.5 - not that many. I would clearly have more competetive matches in a 3.75 division, and would still play in a 4.0 divison - in order to work on my game at the higher competion level. My guess is that in a 3.75 division (essentially the lower half of the current 4.0 division) I would win about half my matches for a long time until I actually improved a great deal.

We have a guy playing 4.0 (computer rated now after an initial self rate to play mixed several years ago) in Knoxville in his mid thirties i would guess - who if you look at the East TN State University (no slouches) tennis website you will see him listed as the ninth most successful doubles player in the history of the school. I will never be able to beat him. He comes back down on appeal every year. It is utter non-sense. What he gets out of beating us 4.0 hacks mercilessly is beyond me. I also wonder if the eighth most successful player in that school's history is playing 4.0 or 4.5.

When I was a 3.5, there were just some guys in that division that had absolutely no chance of beating me - but they were fully capable of winning a match or two each year - enough to keep them a 3.5 forever. I gotta think that they would have been way happier playing in a 3.25 division.

10sguy
02-15-2007, 02:22 PM
What you propose (X.25 & X.73 NTRP levels) is a good idea . . . Part of the reason I say that is because I proposed it some time ago! The understanding here is that Southern piloted that in a couple of the more populous levels, maybe in the 3.25, 3.75, 4.25 areas, within the last year or so. It apparently did not generate a whole lot of interest or participation but I'd bet that was at least partially due to players being more focused on the traditional .00/.50 levels which are currently more meaningful. Another factor which makes it difficult to add these levels is, that in many areas, there simply wouldn't be enough players without incurring significantly more travel. One upside is that those players wanting to play "up" - in order to improve/challenge themselves - wouldn't find themselves going against players rated .5 or more above them.

andfor
02-15-2007, 02:28 PM
I agree with a lot of what Andy says - especially on the wide range of talent within a division. My solution, however would be the additions of an X.25 and an X.75 division. Everyone would automatically be more competetive - and that would eliminate the desire of all but the lamest of the lame to misrepresent themselves on the court.

I won almost all my 3.5 matches - and some 4.0 matches when I was a 3.5 (started out as a verified 3.0). It took me forever to get bumped to actual 4.0 - and now that I am hear - I probably win around the same percentage of 4.0 matches as I did when I was 3.5 - not that many. I would clearly have more competitive matches in a 3.75 division, and would still play in a 4.0 division - in order to work on my game at the higher competition level. My guess is that in a 3.75 division (essentially the lower half of the current 4.0 division) I would win about half my matches for a long time until I actually improved a great deal.

We have a guy playing 4.0 (computer rated now after an initial self rate to play mixed several years ago) in Knoxville in his mid thirties i would guess - who if you look at the East TN State University (no slouches) tennis website you will see him listed as the ninth most successful doubles player in the history of the school. I will never be able to beat him. He comes back down on appeal every year. It is utter non-sense. What he gets out of beating us 4.0 hacks mercilessly is beyond me. I also wonder if the eighth most successful player in that school's history is playing 4.0 or 4.5.

When I was a 3.5, there were just some guys in that division that had absolutely no chance of beating me - but they were fully capable of winning a match or two each year - enough to keep them a 3.5 forever. I gotta think that they would have been way happier playing in a 3.25 division.

Good alternatives with the X.25 and X.75 ideas.

I don't like the sandbagging either. Another reason for the problem is the age gap. In the NTRP (excluding seniors and super seniors) you have players starting from age 19 and up to age 49. The problem I see is that a 45 year old is not going to improve or improve at the same rate as a someone under 35 or even more so than someone age 21 or 22. Again, and I don't agree with the tanking/sandbagging rational but the folks who get bumped at an older age see improving their games to be much more difficult when competing against the youngsters. As an older player now myself I know what I used to be capable of and what I am capable of now. If I was bumped to 5.0 it certainly would be the NTRP kiss of death for me. Now if I could only train full time, neglect my family, was independently wealthy and not have to work I might be able to change that.
Wasn't this why the USTA has age groups anyway?

tennis-n-sc
02-15-2007, 03:53 PM
Good alternatives with the X.25 and X.75 ideas.

I don't like the sandbagging either. Another reason for the problem is the age gap. In the NTRP (excluding seniors and super seniors) you have players starting from age 19 and up to age 49. The problem I see is that a 45 year old is not going to improve or improve at the same rate as a someone under 35 or even more so than someone age 21 or 22. Again, and I don't agree with the tanking/sandbagging rational but the folks who get bumped at an older age see improving their games to be much more difficult when competing against the youngsters. As an older player now myself I know what I used to be capable of and what I am capable of now. If I was bumped to 5.0 it certainly would be the NTRP kiss of death for me. Now if I could only train full time, neglect my family, was independently wealthy and not have to work I might be able to change that.
Wasn't this why the USTA has age groups anyway?

Not sure what you mean by NTRP at ages 19 - 49. If we banned everyone from adult leage NTRP play, those over 49, tennis would die here. And for what it's worth, I play both adult and senior league and the toughest competition by far is at the senior levels. I'd much rather go against a 25 y/o.

andfor
02-15-2007, 04:24 PM
Not sure what you mean by NTRP at ages 19 - 49. If we banned everyone from adult leage NTRP play, those over 49, tennis would die here. And for what it's worth, I play both adult and senior league and the toughest competition by far is at the senior levels. I'd much rather go against a 25 y/o.

You have misunderstood. I never suggested banning anyone. Just adding another age group i.e. NTRP 35 and over. NTRP league play is open to anyone ages 19 and up and that would remian as would 50 and 60 and over NTRP. The problem many folks have is when they get bumped to another division (mostly 4.5 -5.0) often they are rendered non-competitive. I would say this applies to singles more than doubles and to older players more than the younger ones.

In seniors you only play doubles so the physical nature required to play singles is a non-issue. Of course in doubles kids in the U.S. are taught doubles so poorly I would agree with you for the most part that in doubles experience in many cases can out do brawn.

tennis-n-sc
02-16-2007, 04:56 AM
You have misunderstood. I never suggested banning anyone. Just adding another age group i.e. NTRP 35 and over. NTRP league play is open to anyone ages 19 and up and that would remian as would 50 and 60 and over NTRP. The problem many folks have is when they get bumped to another division (mostly 4.5 -5.0) often they are rendered non-competitive. I would say this applies to singles more than doubles and to older players more than the younger ones.

In seniors you only play doubles so the physical nature required to play singles is a non-issue. Of course in doubles kids in the U.S. are taught doubles so poorly I would agree with you for the most part that in doubles experience in many cases can out do brawn.

Not a bad idea.

the_playa
04-14-2007, 01:47 PM
even if they still use NTRP tournaments an easy way around it is to just play open level tournaments and beat up on 5.0/5.5 while staying a 4.5. Example look at 2006 4.5 National Champs and their Top Singles player. He is now a Benchmark 5.0 but in 2006 he beat plenty of 5.0/5,5 players in Open Tournaments, but no matches would hurt his rating.

lol. you're talking about trent broach, i assume. i and my cocaptain complained vigorously about him to Tosha Smith at USTA Texas (after THEY had disqualified one of our players, who was clearly inferior to Broach) but was told he was totally legitimate.

JLyon
04-16-2007, 05:42 AM
bingo, he obviously lied on his player profile in 2005 when he first signed-up. Pretty sad on Texas Section to not clamp down on such an obvious act to decieve the system.

cghipp
04-16-2007, 07:41 AM
Well,I know this girl who played at 3.5 in league and tournaments. She didn't get bumped to 4.0, so she appealed and got a 4.0....duh!!! Why would you do that; except for ego pleasure. Think of how much you could help a combo team if you didn't get bumped. Why appeal?I didn't see this when you first responded, but I'll answer now.

- because I have worked hard to improve my game and I want my rating to reflect that
- because I am as good as or better than a great number of 4.0 players I regularly play against
- because I tired of being hassled by 3.5 opponents about how I have no business playing 3.5
- because I want a better excuse than "I'm too busy" to play on fewer 3.5 teams
- because a 4.0 player is more desirable to have on a 4.0 team than a 3.5 player (duh!)
- because my goal is to eventually be a 4.5 player, and you kind of have to be a 4.0 player first

How many more reasons do you need?

cghipp
04-16-2007, 07:43 AM
About the tanking thing - any chance this is a regional or gender phenomenon? The women I play with would rather chew their arm off than tank a match.

Caswell
04-27-2007, 07:06 AM
I can never understand this mentality. Have they lost their drive to improve their game? What makes them lose so that they can win? Forget about cheating the system, they are cheating themselves and they cannot escape that...

I think part of it is completely outside of the realm of "drive to improve their game".

In Florida at least, 4.0 is the sweet spot if you want lots of competition. Typically the 4.0 level will have the most teams in league play, and the largest draws in tournament play. Notice that the players (like me) below 4.0 want to move up and the players above either want to stay put or move down?

As for the tournament situation, personally I think it's a bad move. I played three NTRP tournaments last year and was planning on playing five this year. Winning matches and moving up was a big part of my motivation to play. Ranking means nothing.