closed racket face - laid-back - flat fh

[Ross K]

In a previous post titled 'caveman fh', I spoke about an opponent's apparently crude, amateurish, but, on occasions, highly effective fh (he did manage to really blast the life out of the ball and with an amazingly tight, killer side-spin as well.) Then yesterday, when I was on an adjoining court, I happened to see him playing, and was able to scrutinize his method further, which has made an impression on me...

Whereas I described him before as just dipping his shoulder and forearming the ball (incredibly hard and spinny!), more precisely, I saw yesterday he's taking the racket back FLAT, swinging forward FLAT, and kind of brushing over the ball (at least it looks a bit like that from a slight distance), which is accompanied by this sort of shoulder jerk... anyhow...

I then did a search of 'fh closed racket face' or something similar and came across some info saying ARodd, Moya and others are practitioners of the 'laid-back fh', during which you roll or sling your fh and strike the ball 'AS IF CLIPPING THE BALL OVER THE TOP OF THE HEAD...'

Lastly, I then tried imitating this technique on quite a few shots during my match yesterday, and to interesting effect - although nowhere near as powerful as this guy - (I previously stated that if the percentages were higher, if he was more consistant with it, it really would be some shot) - I was suddenly getting a reasonably pacy, tight-to-the-net, spinny, hard, left-angled, crosscourt fh - the type I usually can seldom produce with much regularity.

Closed racket face on swing?... laid-back fh?... as if clipping the ball over the head?...

WHAT"S THE STORY HERE!?

[Ross K]

Maybe a bit more detail?...

"Advanced players can add a little juice by laying the wrist back and rolling the forearm for extra leverage... you swing up with the kind of leverage as if you were clipping somebody across the back of the head"...
Extract from "The Laid-back Forehand - On The Line Coaching Tips" (www.tennisontheline.org)

Now you can argue that this is really just a particular componant of the 'modern fh' (although it didn't come across like that in the above link.) But it's the following line that continues to interest me and makes me think of this opponent's fh style "...swing the racket up with the kind of leverage as if you were clipping somebody across the back of the head"...

The question I'm asking myself is, despite his unusual/poor technique, is this guy actually incorporating something of a pro's fh? Or put another way, do pro's indeed sometimes hit with this kind of very hard, level, clipping motion - as the ball comes in he draws the racket back flat, ie face is horizontal and very closed to the ground - and very low (never higher than his r. shoulder) - and then with the racket still looking very closed, swings forward (as if throwing a frisbee, side-arming), and voila!... and btw, the stroke isn't one of those across the chest, glancing, partially-spinny, slow runners; it's like a bloody rocket's been fired - it's incredibly pacy, tight to the net and has a huge, skipping spin...

Maybe I'm getting things confused here, but I reiterate, when I tried to impersonate this - (my fh tends to high, heavy topspin close to baseline - I also use a SW/W grip) - I quickly began to really trouble the guy I was playing with with these very angled, very low, pacy strokes.

Anyone?

[Mahboob Khan]

Without actually seeing the shot, it is very difficult to see it!

My only comment is with regard to lakd back wrist and "close racket face".

Yes, in the backswing .. whether with loop or straight-back -- the wrist is laid back and the racket head could be partially close. In the forward-swing just as the wrist-forearm fires forward, the racket head becomes vertical/parallel to the ground (or almost vertical), you hit through the ball when the racket is on the edge, but in the follow-through the racket closes again. To me, close racket head at contact, is a myth or illusion, because with close racket head the strings are pointing downward and the ball is likely to go to the net. The close racket head in the backswing and in the follow-through, creates an illusion that racket is close at contact. You may like to examine Moya's or Roddock's FH in a slow mo at www.tennisplayer.net to see what exactly happens at contact.

[Bagumbawalla]

Yes, I agree, The idea that the player at the last moment, somehow, caresses his racket up and over the ball (for whatever reason) is partly a visual illusion, as MK says, above. But also, many people actually "feel" their racket doing exactly that (rolling over the ball)-- and it is true that their wrists may, actually, roll-- but the rolling always takes place afrer the first clean contact, during the follow-through, when the ball is safely on its way.

B

[Ross K]

Yes, I agree, The idea that the player at the last moment, somehow, caresses his racket up and over the ball (for whatever reason) is partly a visual illusion, as MK says, above. But also, many people actually "feel" their racket doing exactly that (rolling over the ball)-- and it is true that their wrists may, actually, roll-- but the rolling always takes place afrer the first clean contact, during the follow-through, when the ball is safely on its way.

B Be that as it may, what is not an illusion (I saw this clearly) was this flat, side-arm, pivot back then forwards with the racket, arm motion. No loading over r, shoulder, shoulder rotation, unit turn or other 'modern fh' aspects... (I know)... taking a leaf here from the Roddick school of serving (bear with me a sec)... it's a kind of ABBREVIATED FH!... it's just simply, in a side-arming style, pivot back that forearm, shoot it forward with what looks like very closed racket face and hit (exactly how and where he's hitting the ball, I don't know.)

And the other thing is the amazing power, low tradjectory over net, and killer spin.

My central question: is this to be in any way emulated? I know the guy on whose style I'm basing this all on has crude technique, however, I got very positive results when I tried this out... great for you shorter angle, crosscourt shot (which I've never been too brill at - I'm usually a deep heavy top spinner alas Rafa.)

Thanks to yourself and Mahboob responding (and btw, although I've only been a member and posting on these boards a short while, I've been appreciating and noting your insights and tips for a couple of years and more.)

[Bagumbawalla]

Just like MK, I am having trouble visualizing every aspect of this stroke you are describing.

All I can say is something very general. The best strokes tend to be fluid- getting the most effect from the least wasted effort, and simple- having less grand flourishes and unnecessary motion. Within those limits, there are lots of possibilities.

Though I can't quite create a mental image of this players stroke-- from your description it seems like it could be something fairly simple and straightforward, like Agassi's forehand, perhaps, and that would be a good one to immitate.

If you have the opportunity, drag some tennis instructor (a good one) over to look at this guy's strokes and see what he or she thinks, first hand, and let us know more.

Should you try to emulate this stroke. I don't know. However, it does not hurt to experiment until you find some style where everything seems to come together for you-- where footwork, forward momentum, stroke mechanics, and ball contact/timing all work together as an effortless whole.

Good luck,

B

[Mahboob Khan]

Just like MK, I am having trouble visualizing every aspect of this stroke you are describing.

All I can say is something very general. The best strokes tend to be fluid- getting the most effect from the least wasted effort, and simple- having less grand flourishes and unnecessary motion. Within those limits, there are lots of possibilities.

Though I can't quite create a mental image of this players stroke-- from your description it seems like it could be something fairly simple and straightforward, like Agassi's forehand, perhaps, and that would be a good one to immitate.

If you have the opportunity, drag some tennis instructor (a good one) over to look at this guy's strokes and see what he or she thinks, first hand, and let us know more.

Should you try to emulate this stroke. I don't know. However, it does not hurt to experiment until you find some style where everything seems to come together for you-- where footwork, forward momentum, stroke mechanics, and ball contact/timing all work together as an effortless whole.

Good luck,

B

Yes, precisely. Does this guy's forehand better than Gonzales? Or Federer, or Agassi, or Moya, or Roddick? It is better to emulate a world class player rather than a player who is only known in his home street!

[Ross K]

Yes, precisely. Does this guy's forehand better than Gonzales? Or Federer, or Agassi, or Moya, or Roddick? It is better to emulate a world class player rather than a player who is only known in his home street!

Obviously, yes, it's best to emulate pro's!

Gentlemen, maybe I should come at this subject with a different approach?...

Okay... I am quite practised and skilled when it comes to Nadal-like deep, high-bouncing, topspin heavy, very near the baseline fh strokes.

I am NOT very good when it comes to keeping it lower and tighter to the net - (but still spinning, curving away, I don't mean flat!) - with good pace, and on the angle.

Now, understandably, you do not recommend emulating this player I've mentioned, however, when I've tried copying his side-armer, brush over top of the ball technique, I'm suddenly much better at this hard, low, curvey crosscourt shot. (His arm, forearm doesn't so much rotate into shot and with butt-cap lining up to incoming ball as is now taught, but he more pivots the forearm out and swings it back in again, and with racket face very parallel to ground.)

Therefore, what mechanics should I work on to achieve good results?... how are players taught to hit this particular shot?... lots of power... curving spin... tight to net... crosscourt...

Surely there are specific ways of teaching this?