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andfor
03-14-2007, 08:52 AM
Oh my God! I have no doubt that you're ********! Have you not read any of these posts?! IT'S ALL HYPOTHETICAL. Get that through your head! Haven't you done what I've asked you to, that is, show these posts to an adult? One who can read?
Seriously dude, you are mentally ********...

Since it's all hypothetical, hypothetically I would just win the match and not worry about the score.

Your hypothetical situation is entirely unclear. This is evident by your adding criteria after the fact.

Thanks for the added name calling. You are very hostile.

andfor
03-14-2007, 08:53 AM
Also curious, is there a way to view actual NTRP ratings? My appeal was denied and I want to see the actual number.

It's all made up stuff to try to get someone to say they would dump games or a match in some sort of hypothetical situation that would never occur, ever.

10sfreak
03-14-2007, 08:55 AM
It's all made up stuff to try to get someone to say they would dump games or a match in some sort of hypothetical situation that would never occur, ever.

Well, DUH! Hotdamn! You finally figured it out. Congratulations!

10sfreak
03-14-2007, 08:58 AM
Andfor, I've got the website for ya. Just enter your USTA membership number, and it'll give you your dynamic rating instantly. Go to:
www.dynamicratings.com
Now, if you can't pull up the website, you're going to need a new computer. Just don't pay any attention to the "Page not found" message that hypothetically might come up. Or, you may be able to get by with just re-installing your operating system. Try both and see...

Cindysphinx
03-14-2007, 09:04 AM
If you'll note, I haven't been hostile to Cindy, 'cause she at least has the mental faculty to understand what I'm getting at, even if she vehemently disagrees with my position.

Well . . . You flat-out called me a liar, which is a pretty high insult where I come from.

You did this not on the basis of anything I said or did, but because you have chosen to believe I have no personal integrity at all. Another high insult.

Anyway, let me pose a hypothetical to you, 10sfreak. A much more realistic one.

You have a player on a winning streak who is in danger of being DQ'd. Your opposing captain has a player on a losing streak who is in danger of having his rating drop one level, and the player doesn't want his rating to drop.

The other captain offers to skip the match and submit incorrect scores whereby your player loses 6-1, 6-1.

Do you agree to do this? Does your answer change if the players play and your guys wins 6-1, 6-1?

JLyon
03-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Just to clarify there is no way to view your Dynamic rating down to a tenth or hundreth. Only League Coordinators for CTA's, etc.. get a notebook to explain but are told to explicitly to not let others view it. Means no captains, no players. The only officials with access to actually players ratings are the district/state level officials and above.

Ronaldo
03-14-2007, 11:13 AM
Just to clarify there is no way to view your Dynamic rating down to a tenth or hundreth. Only League Coordinators for CTA's, etc.. get a notebook to explain but are told to explicitly to not let others view it. Means no captains, no players. The only officials with access to actually players ratings are the district/state level officials and above.

Our district league co-ordinator made the same statement. Does not make their decision to deny my appeal based on ratings any more palatable. Just want to see the number in the raw.

JLyon
03-15-2007, 04:45 AM
Well I have just filed a protest on a self-rate in my current league as another team sign-up a former D2 player who played on a Top 5 Ranked School, which by USTA Guidelines should be a 5.5 to play 4.5. Although the 2006 4.5 National Champs had a similar player and noone seemed to bat an eye at any level. I am sure some captains/posters would have no problem bringing in a player like this but it is the problem with USTA League rules being manipulated. I'll let you know an answer I get from district coordinator.

andfor
03-15-2007, 07:42 AM
Well I have just filed a protest on a self-rate in my current league as another team sign-up a former D2 player who played on a Top 5 Ranked School, which by USTA Guidelines should be a 5.5 to play 4.5. Although the 2006 4.5 National Champs had a similar player and noone seemed to bat an eye at any level. I am sure some captains/posters would have no problem bringing in a player like this but it is the problem with USTA League rules being manipulated. I'll let you know an answer I get from district coordinator.

I'd be interested to hear your sections answer. It may be to your benefit you are protesting him before the state or sectionals. We protested a guy last year while at the state playoofs. The player was a Freshman on a top 75 D1 team. He had self-rated after his school was ranked and he had already played multiple D1 matches in tournamnets and dual play fall and spring. This guy was not a starter but he had played varsity matches. We had all the proof, it was all found on the internet. By the USTA self-rate guidelines he should have been rated a 6.0. The Southerns allowed him to stay at 4.5 because he had a limited junior USTA record and a low junior ranking. They also took into consideration he was a walk-on. Can you believe they allowed him to go from their guideline of 6.0 to 4.5 even though he was playing varsity matches on a top 75 D1 team? Needless to say we where PO'd at the Sections ruling. If theywould have DQ'd him we would have gone to the sectionals insted his team went.

The biggest issue I had was the fact that during the fall and spring semesters he is practicing everyday on a top ranked college team.

JLyon
03-15-2007, 08:42 AM
I'd be interested to hear your sections answer. It may be to your benefit you are protesting him before the state or sectionals. We protested a guy last year while at the state playoofs. The player was a Freshman on a top 75 D1 team. He had self-rated after his school was ranked and he had already played multiple D1 matches in tournamnets and dual play fall and spring. This guy was not a starter but he had played varsity matches. We had all the proof, it was all found on the internet. By the USTA self-rate guidelines he should have been rated a 6.0. The Southerns allowed him to stay at 4.5 because he had a limited junior USTA record and a low junior ranking. They also took into consideration he was a walk-on. Can you believe they allowed him to go from their guideline of 6.0 to 4.5 even though he was playing varsity matches on a top 75 D1 team? Needless to say we where PO'd at the Sections ruling. If theywould have DQ'd him we would have gone to the sectionals insted his team went.

The biggest issue I had was the fact that during the fall and spring semesters he is practicing everyday on a top ranked college team.

I sent in all the information (I am also in southern) we have not played matches yet, but the player wasx on a Top 5 team and in the line-up. also this player played in 10+ Futures tournies in S.A. with some wins in the qualifying. I will be very upset if the grievance is denied.
I am miffed on your protest also other than they just figured he did not play in the Top6 so they let him slide which is crap though. Why have guidelines if you do not follow them.

andfor
03-15-2007, 10:48 AM
I sent in all the information (I am also in southern) we have not played matches yet, but the player wasx on a Top 5 team and in the line-up. also this player played in 10+ Futures tournies in S.A. with some wins in the qualifying. I will be very upset if the grievance is denied.
I am miffed on your protest also other than they just figured he did not play in the Top6 so they let him slide which is crap though. Why have guidelines if you do not follow them.

I feel stongly that based on the evidence you mentioned here you have a strong case. If they deny your protest do not be suprised. Worst case for this guy they might allow him 5.0 but IMO not a full level to 4.5. I have won some protests and lost some. If your protest gets turned down you can still appeal to another level within the Southerns. Feel free to e-mail me if you want some additional help fighting them.

I forgot to metion regarding your questions about why the USTA has NTRP self-rate guidelines but does not follow them. That's their excuse when they make a decison to allow a player to self-rate lower than what the guideline recommends. One of their pat responses is "it's only a guideline".

10sguy
03-15-2007, 10:51 PM
Sounds like an appeal to National may be in order.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-16-2007, 01:16 PM
Just to clarify there is no way to view your Dynamic rating down to a tenth or hundreth. Only League Coordinators for CTA's, etc.. get a notebook to explain but are told to explicitly to not let others view it. Means no captains, no players. The only officials with access to actually players ratings are the district/state level officials and above.

League coordinators are not supposed to get access to DNTRP ratings, since they're usually volunteers. Only USTA employees do have access to the DNTRP ratings, to reduce the chances of DNTRP manipulation.

The only volunteers that have access to DNTRP are usually the Adult Grievance and Appeal Committees, but only if it's related to a grievance. They get the reports from the USTA staff.

I forgot where I read it, but once a USTA official (a volunteer, not an employee), got DNTRP reports for his teammates and told them to manipulate their scores. Needless to say, once word got out, he was removed and suspended from USTA participation.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-16-2007, 01:21 PM
I'd be interested to hear your sections answer. It may be to your benefit you are protesting him before the state or sectionals. We protested a guy last year while at the state playoofs. The player was a Freshman on a top 75 D1 team. He had self-rated after his school was ranked and he had already played multiple D1 matches in tournamnets and dual play fall and spring. This guy was not a starter but he had played varsity matches. We had all the proof, it was all found on the internet. By the USTA self-rate guidelines he should have been rated a 6.0. The Southerns allowed him to stay at 4.5 because he had a limited junior USTA record and a low junior ranking. They also took into consideration he was a walk-on. Can you believe they allowed him to go from their guideline of 6.0 to 4.5 even though he was playing varsity matches on a top 75 D1 team? Needless to say we where PO'd at the Sections ruling. If theywould have DQ'd him we would have gone to the sectionals insted his team went.

The biggest issue I had was the fact that during the fall and spring semesters he is practicing everyday on a top ranked college team.

At the very least, the player should have been a 5.0.

Unfortunately, being part of the #75 D1 school is not an indication they are 6.0 level. Being part of a top 20 D1 school indicates the player is a 6.0 level player.

The guidelines are a little messed up, since they still need to be refined for college (community, walk-on, low ranked schools) players.

For example, did you know that community college players, who are sometimes no better than 3.5, need to self-rate 4.5? Then they need to appeal the self-rating.

Self-rating is a bit of a joke right now because former top level players (6.0) are allowed to self-rate 4.5 in order to create "competitive" teams, while forcing 3.5 level players to also self-rate 4.5.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-16-2007, 01:27 PM
Hey, pardon a lurker for jumping in here unannounced.
There are certainly a lot of different questions being asked here.
All good, or at least informative. ;)

I looked into what happens when a player DQs?
and is it different depending on what Section you're playing in?

I went to the National reg's and looked.
Nationally we know that "3 strikes" and you're DQ'd.

From the National Reg's:
3.04D Scoring Procedures.
3.04D(1) Local....In the event of a disqualification from a particular level of play the section (my bold) shall determine and publish in their regulations what matches, if any, shall be considered losses. The disqualified matches shall be considered 6-0, 6-0 wins for the opposing player or doubles team.

So I went to the 17 Sectional websites and looked again:

5 Sections have the "worst case" scenario...
Both Self and Computer rated players will have ALL their matches reversed.
(Florida,Southwest, Mid-west, NorCal, SoCal)

5 Sections begin to show some mercy to the computer rated player...
The Self rater still loses ALL matches, the Computer rated player loses only the last match (which caused the 3rd strike).
(South, Texas, PacificNW, Alaska, MiddleAtlantic)

2 Sections are pretty mild about it...
Selfers get their last three reversed, Computer raters...none reversed
(Middlestates, MissouriRiverValley)

2 Sections are pretty sweet about it...
Self and Computer raters only have their last match reversed.
(Eastern, Northern)

& 3 Sections were hard to guess...
NewEngland (Selfers reverse ALL, Computer rated unclear?)
Intermountain (couldn't find Sectional Rules on their site?)
Carribean (en espanol?)

So, after doubting stories of computer rated players DQing and having all their league matches reversed..I believe it happens in some sections. How awful.

BUT, that said, I don't feel that can ever justify not playing your hardest in a match. If you DQ, maybe ALL your matches will be reversed, maybe fewer...doesn't matter. If you play, play hard. If you fear losing matches retroactively for your team, step aside. Or better yet, work with your section's regulation committee to get a more copacetic rule.

Hey free advice...you know what that's worth.

Newbie out.

Wow ... nice research! Sorry this is a late post, I haven't had time to keep up with the boards lately.

So, is 10sfreak really banned?

andfor
03-16-2007, 10:11 PM
At the very least, the player should have been a 5.0.

Unfortunately, being part of the #75 D1 school is not an indication they are 6.0 level. Being part of a top 20 D1 school indicates the player is a 6.0 level player.

The guidelines are a little messed up, since they still need to be refined for college (community, walk-on, low ranked schools) players.

For example, did you know that community college players, who are sometimes no better than 3.5, need to self-rate 4.5? Then they need to appeal the self-rating.

Self-rating is a bit of a joke right now because former top level players (6.0) are allowed to self-rate 4.5 in order to create "competitive" teams, while forcing 3.5 level players to also self-rate 4.5.

Thanks. I understand they are only guidelines and agree with your assesment they need to be refined. But they are there in writing and act a starting point. Heck they have remained the same for the last 4 or so years since they came out. I have trouble with them taking a guy who had played and won multiple varsity matches on a top#75 D1 team down 2 1/2 levels. This was all in the same season last spring. The decision to allow him to remain 4.5 was a little of a stretch for me given the evidence on the player in questions background. At the end of the year he has only lost 1 or 2 4.5 matchs (won all his singles at the sectional only losses happend in doubles) and finished ranked #5 in the state Men's Open. BTW, he did not get moved up, go figure...........

4.5 to 3.5 for a novice playing JUCO, I can understand.

Cindysphinx
03-17-2007, 06:30 AM
Wow ... nice research! Sorry this is a late post, I haven't had time to keep up with the boards lately.

So, is 10sfreak really banned?

Banned? Gee, I hope not. He was quite a gentleman on many other threads.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-17-2007, 07:49 PM
Thanks. I understand they are only guidelines and agree with your assesment they need to be refined. But they are there in writing and act a starting point. Heck they have remained the same for the last 4 or so years since they came out. I have trouble with them taking a guy who had played and won multiple varsity matches on a top#75 D1 team down 2 1/2 levels. This was all in the same season last spring. The decision to allow him to remain 4.5 was a little of a stretch for me given the evidence on the player in questions background. At the end of the year he has only lost 1 or 2 4.5 matchs (won all his singles at the sectional only losses happend in doubles) and finished ranked #5 in the state Men's Open. BTW, he did not get moved up, go figure...........

4.5 to 3.5 for a novice playing JUCO, I can understand.

Yeah ... it is a major problem. Most recreational players wouldn't be able to beat the former college players on the recreational players's best day and the college player's worst day.

The ratings have really gotten scrunched lately, not only from elite players playing as top recreational players, but from the bottom as well.

Total compression.

2.5 isn't for beginners anymore. You will often see 3.5 level players playing with the excuse, "it's their first season."

It really skews the original intent of USTA, just so a few greedy people can win a $16 trophy.

Maybe USTA should allow the worst performing team in every section to play at Nationals.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-17-2007, 07:50 PM
Banned? Gee, I hope not. He was quite a gentleman on many other threads.

Yeah ... I read some of his other posts and they were pretty decent.

Don't know why he went ballistic on this thread.

andfor
03-18-2007, 07:18 AM
Yeah ... it is a major problem. Most recreational players wouldn't be able to beat the former college players on the recreational players's best day and the college player's worst day.

The ratings have really gotten scrunched lately, not only from elite players playing as top recreational players, but from the bottom as well.

Total compression.

2.5 isn't for beginners anymore. You will often see 3.5 level players playing with the excuse, "it's their first season."

It really skews the original intent of USTA, just so a few greedy people can win a $16 trophy.

Maybe USTA should allow the worst performing team in every section to play at Nationals.

Agreed again. Although the NTRP system works for the most part there are many participating in it messing it up by trying to win at all costs. Also the USTA is IMO is in part to blame. They could do one of or both of two things to fix it.
#1 The USTA could make adult tournament tennis more attractive and find ways to increase the number of tournaments and participation.
#2 The USTA could also make a better effort to attract more 5.0, 5.5 or open level team tennis and try to increase participation there. That may divert the Open Level players from 5.0, 4.5. 4.0. It may help.

No matter what with a handicap systems their will always be some cheaters. More could be done at a national level to fix it though.

I have been made empty promises by USTA and Southern Officials that they were addressing the adult tournament problems. That was 2 years ago and have not seen any initiatives yet.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-18-2007, 11:44 PM
USTA should seriously consider hiring verifiers to randomly go to some matches for teams that are suspected of having sandbaggers.

Once the first few get caught, with the captain and players (including the doubles partners) being suspended, I think USTA tennis would get cleaned up very fast. But it has to be implemented Nationally.

kevhen
03-21-2007, 07:46 AM
As captain I usually put the lineup in order of strength but sometimes my #3 doubles team is stronger than the #2 team.