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J011yroger
02-15-2007, 03:29 AM
Hey all, enjoy the read, but I am really looking for replies from high level posters, talking about 5.0++ players, I hope that some of the people I like/respect the opinions of would weigh in (Mojo/Craig Clark/etc.), I would hope that if you are replying, you have played at a high level, hit against tour players, (Futures, Challangers, D1 ranked) as well as advanced rec players, or have extensive coaching experience with this level of play.

Question is, how is a person supposed to know if they are a 5.5 player, if they do not have a ranking. What I have been saying lately is that they cant. My position is that recreational play tops out at 5.0 and if you claim to be higher than that, you need a present or former ranking to back it up. And if you are talking about a former ranking, from some time ago, it should be fairly impressive.

The reason I am posting this, and have taken my stance (Which is open to change) is that I personally can't tell just by looking at the people play. I have trouble judging the ball speed and ability levels, unless I play the person. Example. I was at a large public park, looking for a hit/pickup game, and I couldn't find anyone around who could thump. So I settled into a seat on a bench and watched two guys playing a match. There were a bunch of people watching, so I chilled, and observed. I had seen both players before, and knew they were of a decent standard, and watching the match figured the lesser player to be a mid 5.0, and the stronger player a weak 5.5.

Later that day, and again in the future, I hit with the player I thought was a mid 5.0, and was shocked. In actually playing him, he was more a mid 4.5 borderline weak 5.0. Now I am an open level player and I think that NTRP is pretty much bogus, people have told me I am between 4.5 and 6.0 (Note people who told me I am a 6.0 have never played with/against a 6.0 and do not realize that they are delusional.)

I have a decent amount of tournament experience, I enjoy looking at the pro/open list. (The ATP entry list of the top 500 players in the US.) and seeing how people I have played/hit with are doing. The problem is that I see two factors, as effecting your playing level. Firstly, the size of your game, secondly, your consistency. And that is tough for me to judge. Example, two guys play evenly with each other, one serves 130+ and doubles too much, the other serves 100-110,with good spin and can pick up quarters with his serve. I have played some 5.5-6.0 players, and felt like I was fighting for my life for every point, like I was a mouse running a razzle dazzle pattern against a farmer with a sledgehammer, and then when all was said and done, looked at the score and said "Hey! I didn't do too badly", and then I have played others at the same level, and felt that the guy was equal to me, never challanged me, or overmatched me, felt that I was in every point, in every game, felt that I could hurt him with my weapons, and then when we are done playing looked at the score and said "Wow, I got whipped.". In practice, or hitting, I have never met anyone I have been unable to keep up with, (Now I haven't ever hit with James Blake, but I don't think that is relevant). So I am fairly conviced that you can only tell by the playing.

So still after all of my prattling on, the question remains, short of playing someone, or them having rankings to point to, how can you tell what level player they are once they get to 5.0ish.

J

BounceHitBounceHit
02-23-2007, 07:46 PM
Hey all, enjoy the read, but I am really looking for replies from high level posters, talking about 5.0++ players, I hope that some of the people I like/respect the opinions of would weigh in (Mojo/Craig Clark/etc.), I would hope that if you are replying, you have played at a high level, hit against tour players, (Futures, Challangers, D1 ranked) as well as advanced rec players, or have extensive coaching experience with this level of play.

Question is, how is a person supposed to know if they are a 5.5 player, if they do not have a ranking. What I have been saying lately is that they cant. My position is that recreational play tops out at 5.0 and if you claim to be higher than that, you need a present or former ranking to back it up. And if you are talking about a former ranking, from some time ago, it should be fairly impressive.

The reason I am posting this, and have taken my stance (Which is open to change) is that I personally can't tell just by looking at the people play. I have trouble judging the ball speed and ability levels, unless I play the person. Example. I was at a large public park, looking for a hit/pickup game, and I couldn't find anyone around who could thump. So I settled into a seat on a bench and watched two guys playing a match. There were a bunch of people watching, so I chilled, and observed. I had seen both players before, and knew they were of a decent standard, and watching the match figured the lesser player to be a mid 5.0, and the stronger player a weak 5.5.

Later that day, and again in the future, I hit with the player I thought was a mid 5.0, and was shocked. In actually playing him, he was more a mid 4.5 borderline weak 5.0. Now I am an open level player and I think that NTRP is pretty much bogus, people have told me I am between 4.5 and 6.0 (Note people who told me I am a 6.0 have never played with/against a 6.0 and do not realize that they are delusional.)

I have a decent amount of tournament experience, I enjoy looking at the pro/open list. (The ATP entry list of the top 500 players in the US.) and seeing how people I have played/hit with are doing. The problem is that I see two factors, as effecting your playing level. Firstly, the size of your game, secondly, your consistency. And that is tough for me to judge. Example, two guys play evenly with each other, one serves 130+ and doubles too much, the other serves 100-110,with good spin and can pick up quarters with his serve. I have played some 5.5-6.0 players, and felt like I was fighting for my life for every point, like I was a mouse running a razzle dazzle pattern against a farmer with a sledgehammer, and then when all was said and done, looked at the score and said "Hey! I didn't do too badly", and then I have played others at the same level, and felt that the guy was equal to me, never challanged me, or overmatched me, felt that I was in every point, in every game, felt that I could hurt him with my weapons, and then when we are done playing looked at the score and said "Wow, I got whipped.". In practice, or hitting, I have never met anyone I have been unable to keep up with, (Now I haven't ever hit with James Blake, but I don't think that is relevant). So I am fairly conviced that you can only tell by the playing.

So still after all of my prattling on, the question remains, short of playing someone, or them having rankings to point to, how can you tell what level player they are once they get to 5.0ish.

J


I agree with you that in truth, it is very difficult to know.

Recreational play tops out at the 5.0 level for the most part, and frankly the distinction between 5.0 and 5.5 per the NTRP guidelines is, IMO, the 'fuzziest' of all. Further complicating matters is the whole issue of so called 'sand-bagging'. When 5.5's play 4.5, the outcomes are difficult to assess. ;) Should I have re-evaluate my 'true' playing level having just lost 6-2, 6-0?? Or on the other hand, was that Double Bagel I suffered last week nothing less than a Badge of Honor??

Recall also that in reality precious few folks will ever achieve a 5.0 level of play, much less 5.5 and above. So, practically speaking, it's tougher to find someone to play who you can use as a 'measuring stick' (unless you happen to have convenient access to some good DI players, who are, by definition, 6.0's).

And your comments about the experience of playing really fine players is spot on. I played great tennis against Oscar Bustos when I hit with him a few years ago, but won only a few games. I've lost to people (purportedly) rated 4.0 (including one guy wearing an A shirt and high top Chuck Taylors (on clay, of course) and had (recent) wins against folks who (according to them) were 5.5's. My pal Tim is (by definition, as the former #1 player in the Mens 30's in our state) a 6.0, and we are pretty closely matched during play, though he (usually) comes out on top when we play practice matches.
What does it all mean!!??! ;) I've been told by various teaching pros around the country (I travel quite a bit and try to fit in hits whenever I can) that I am anywhere from 4.5 to 5.5. One guy even said I was a 6.0 (he was wearing a leopard print thong and WayFarers, and was dead wrong, but I did play very well that day). The people who know me best and with whom I play regularly say I am 5.0-5.5.

But in the end, does it really matter? Teaching pros play 4.5 leagues. Are they 'really' 4.5's? ;) Maybe there just plain aren't enough 'real' 5.0's to make a consistent league? I don't know. 3.5's want to play 4.0, and 4.0's want to play with the 5.5's. But when they do, they typically don't have too much fun.

In the end, the system was NTRP intended to allow tennis players to find appropriate competition and enhance participation. I think it's done that to some degree, although it ultimately may prove no better than the old 'A', 'B', 'C' approach. ;)

Best,

CC

NoBadMojo
02-23-2007, 08:55 PM
Aye....check out what the USTA has to say. They have pretty detailed descriptions of the levels up to 5.0 and then the descriptors become shorter and nebulous at 5.0, so evidently they dont have a clear notion of this either. Based on what they say, I would be a 5.5, but I believe myself to be a 5.0 with 5.5 stroke production and 4.5 fitness ;)

My take is the jump from 4.5 to 5.0 is easily defined and significant. 4.0-4.5 can be pretty hard to distinguish as can 5.0-5.5. Personally I feel the difference between 5.0 and 5.5's is more a matter of how much energy and events these guys do..if they are fit, train, how many times a week they play, how many events making them tourney tuff,. Stuff like that gives a player a big edge over someone who is a good player but just doesnt put the time and training in. At the 5.0's people have well defined and developed strokes although these days you sure dont need to have your toolbox full of tools to be a 5.0 or more. 6.0 is also pretty easy to tell..they've got creds.
Anywho..thats my take..I think there are too many levels and they can do without the half levels..

J011yroger
02-23-2007, 10:26 PM
Yea, I mean, lets say I play 15 open tourneys this year, play all 4 surface nationals, and get a pretty good ranking, sectionaly and nationally, (You only count your best 6, and I am a streaky guy, so I gotta have a couple of good weeks and put a charge into my ranking.) Then I will be by definition a 6.0 player, but...still play even with the 5.0s that didn't play tournaments...that isn't right.

I was thinking about this, and I have come to my own conclusion of sorts. 4.5-5.0 is really a quantum leap. That is the big one. The difference between 5.0 and 5.5 is consistency, smarts, and mental toughness. 5.5s miss less, play defence better, and have better shot selection, it is much more rare for a 5.5 player to chose to hit the wrong shot at the wrong time. If you compared a 5.0 and a 5.5 side by side, stroke by stroke, then I doubt you would see much difference.

I tell all of my students to picture tennis like chess. When you are a 2.5 you only know how to use your pawns, then when you get to 3.0 you can use your rooks too, then 3.5 you get to use the bishop, and 4.0 the knights, then 4.5 the queen, and when you get to 5.0 you can use all of the pieces. When you get to 5.0 you know how to play tennis, and it is your skill and ability that determine where you go from there, and the only thing that can quantify that is past or current rankings.

In my opinion it takes a big pair to call yourself a 5.5 with out creds. And by creds I mean ATP points, national ranking in open or 35s, or D1 college.

People (club players) say I am like a 6.0 when I tell them I play tournaments and such, and I reply, "Eh, not really...that NTRP stuff kind of goes out the window once you get to 5.0, or if not out the window then real hazy."

As far as creds, what do you guys say about the USTA PRO/OPEN list? If you don't know what that is, it is the entry ranking for ATP tournaments for the US, a list of the supposed top 500 players in the US, starting with Andy Roddick, and working its way down. Is anyone on that list by definition a 6.0?

J

travlerajm
02-23-2007, 10:44 PM
Yea, I mean, lets say I play 15 open tourneys this year, play all 4 surface nationals, and get a pretty good ranking, sectionaly and nationally, (You only count your best 6, and I am a streaky guy, so I gotta have a couple of good weeks and put a charge into my ranking.) Then I will be by definition a 6.0 player, but...still play even with the 5.0s that didn't play tournaments...that isn't right.

I was thinking about this, and I have come to my own conclusion of sorts. 4.5-5.0 is really a quantum leap. That is the big one. The difference between 5.0 and 5.5 is consistency, smarts, and mental toughness. 5.5s miss less, play defence better, and have better shot selection, it is much more rare for a 5.5 player to chose to hit the wrong shot at the wrong time. If you compared a 5.0 and a 5.5 side by side, stroke by stroke, then I doubt you would see much difference.

I tell all of my students to picture tennis like chess. When you are a 2.5 you only know how to use your pawns, then when you get to 3.0 you can use your rooks too, then 3.5 you get to use the bishop, and 4.0 the knights, then 4.5 the queen, and when you get to 5.0 you can use all of the pieces. When you get to 5.0 you know how to play tennis, and it is your skill and ability that determine where you go from there, and the only thing that can quantify that is past or current rankings.

In my opinion it takes a big pair to call yourself a 5.5 with out creds. And by creds I mean ATP points, national ranking in open or 35s, or D1 college.

People (club players) say I am like a 6.0 when I tell them I play tournaments and such, and I reply, "Eh, not really...that NTRP stuff kind of goes out the window once you get to 5.0, or if not out the window then real hazy."

As far as creds, what do you guys say about the USTA PRO/OPEN list? If you don't know what that is, it is the entry ranking for ATP tournaments for the US, a list of the supposed top 500 players in the US, starting with Andy Roddick, and working its way down. Is anyone on that list by definition a 6.0?

J

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. If you don't have cred, then you are 5.0 tops. And many 4.5 players call themselves 5.0, when in reality, they have never played at what i consider a true 5.0 level.

I 5.0 guy I used to hit with regularly played some National tournaments one year and ended up ranked in the top 300 in the US. On a good day he was a 5.5, but I'd still call him a strong 5.0. In other words, even the entry rankings don't mean much once you get past the first 200.

J011yroger
02-23-2007, 11:07 PM
Yea, I have played/hit with guys in the high 100s to mid 200s on the entry list, and it wasn't like I was getting humiliated.

BounceHitBounceHit
02-24-2007, 03:39 PM
I agree with everything that has been said in this thread. If you don't have cred, then you are 5.0 tops. And many 4.5 players call themselves 5.0, when in reality, they have never played at what i consider a true 5.0 level.

I 5.0 guy I used to hit with regularly played some National tournaments one year and ended up ranked in the top 300 in the US. On a good day he was a 5.5, but I'd still call him a strong 5.0. In other words, even the entry rankings don't mean much once you get past the first 200.

The thing is this: if you have a state, sectional, or national ranking, then you ARE a 6.0 BY DEFINITION. This creates a strange reality, where there may be 5.0's and certainly many 5.5's who are every bit as good as you, but don't play enough tournaments to get the 'credentials'. I think Mojo alluded to this fact.

Thus my ealier comments. The ranking system breaks down a bit at these stratospheric heights of the game. I once had a VERY good hitting partner who ultimately became a teaching pro after he relocated to California. He told me a story about how he had been invited to join a USTA league where most of his fellow pros were participating. He declined graciously, but later said to me, 'for the love of God, I competed successfully in the Orange Bowl....how can I show up with a straight face to play the 4.5's?'

I think there are a bunch of people who should ask themselves the same question. ;)

CC

J011yroger
02-24-2007, 03:53 PM
Yea, I kind of see 5.5 as a step back...Rec play tops out at 5.0 and if you play tournaments or college and are ranked, then you are by def 6.0, and when you stop playing tournaments/college, then you get to call yourself 5.5...so the ability gap between a 5.0 and a 6.0 is vastly smaller than that of a 3.0 to a 4.0 to a 5.0.

BounceHitBounceHit
02-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Yea, I kind of see 5.5 as a step back...Rec play tops out at 5.0 and if you play tournaments or college and are ranked, then you are by def 6.0, and when you stop playing tournaments/college, then you get to call yourself 5.5...so the ability gap between a 5.0 and a 6.0 is vastly smaller than that of a 3.0 to a 4.0 to a 5.0.

Agreed. A good 5.0 won't surrender many games to a 4.0. On the other hand, many good 5.0's (and certainly 5.5's) will give many a 6.0 all they care to handle. The real 'Quantum Leap' occurs at the 6.0 to 7.0 level. ;) CC

Kaptain Karl
02-24-2007, 04:48 PM
"Yup." I pretty much agree with all posted above. IMO, the problem is with trying to use the NTRP to "really" rate someone. If the player isn't playing tourneys to get ranked/rated, the ETRPS (www.easitennis.com/NTRPSystem.htm)system is a much better way to distinguish a player's ability/ranking.

I am a 5.0. One of my regular hits is a 5.5, and I have yet to get a single set off him. (I've pressed him to tie-breakers and 7-5 sets ... but he always seems to have a "reserve" I simply do not have....)

- KK

J011yroger
02-24-2007, 04:56 PM
Agreed. A good 5.0 won't surrender many games to a 4.0. On the other hand, many good 5.0's (and certainly 5.5's) will give many a 6.0 all they care to handle. The real 'Quantum Leap' occurs at the 6.0 to 7.0 level. ;) CC

I missed the boat on that 7.0 level thing so I will have to take your word for it :)

J

BounceHitBounceHit
02-24-2007, 05:13 PM
I missed the boat on that 7.0 level thing so I will have to take your word for it :)



J


Don't I wish!! ;)

I've played some 'former 7.0's' and they are incredibly good, even now. A big part of it is their ability to compete for ever darned point and uncanny shot selection/court sense.

CC

Raiden.Kaminari
02-25-2007, 01:44 AM
USTA attempted to clear it up by publishing this "Elite player guideline." In terms of skills, there is an exponential rise usually between the recreational, then college level, and pro level players if you look at reaction time, footwork, hand-eye coordination, etc. And as Craig mentioned, they hardly ever let a ball slip by :(

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7372.pdf

The really weird thing I saw was when Cecil Mamiit (http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/Reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=mamiit&FirstName=cecil&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+) (a pro-player) had a 4.5 rating one year after playing some league players in open tournaments. The algorithm that USTA used seems to have been geared for the lower NTRPs more than higher levels (besides the there have been some definite ratings abuse lately that has clouded the NTRP levels).

And then there is Leticia McCaig (http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/Reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=mccaig&FirstName=leticia&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+), a former WTA top 100 pro, Fed Cup player for Venezuela, #1 WTA pro player for Venezuela, who happened to self-rate 3.5 to partner herself with students in tournaments (and then in league matches). She was most recently NTRP rated 4.5 until USTA gathered enough evidence and bumped her back up to 6.0, where she should have been despite her injury (she wiped out 4.5 women singles player 6-0, 6-0 in less than 30 minutes).

It appears that they also adjusted Cecil Mamiit to 5.5 :-D

Anyway, that should be a good indication of how many "elite" players have self-rated poorly, or tanked matches to get down to 4.5. :sad:

BounceHitBounceHit
02-25-2007, 07:23 AM
USTA attempted to clear it up by publishing this "Elite player guideline." In terms of skills, there is an exponential rise usually between the recreational, then college level, and pro level players if you look at reaction time, footwork, hand-eye coordination, etc. And as Craig mentioned, they hardly ever let a ball slip by

http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7372.pdf

The really weird thing I saw was when Cecil Mamiit (http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/Reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=mamiit&FirstName=cecil&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+) (a pro-player) had a 4.5 rating one year after playing some league players in open tournaments. The algorithm that USTA used seems to have been geared for the lower NTRPs more than higher levels (besides the there have been some definite ratings abuse lately that has clouded the NTRP levels).

And then there is Leticia McCaig (http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/Reports/NTRP/SearchResults.asp?Search=Name&LastName=mccaig&FirstName=leticia&SearchType=X&submit2=+Go+), a former WTA top 100 pro, Fed Cup player for Venezuela, #1 WTA pro player for Venezuela, who happened to self-rate 3.5 to partner herself with students in tournaments (and then in league matches). She was most recently NTRP rated 4.5 until USTA gathered enough evidence and bumped her back up to 6.0, where she should have been despite her injury (she wiped out 4.5 women singles player 6-0, 6-0 in less than 30 minutes).

It appears that they also adjusted Cecil Mamiit to 5.5

Anyway, that should be a good indication of how many "elite" players have self-rated poorly, or tanked matches to get down to 4.5. :sad:


Love it! ;)

I used to play mixed doubles tourneys with Shawn Foltz, a former Top 50 WTA'er (actually, I think her highest ranking was 52 or so, not that it really matters much at those heights of the game). When Shawn moved to finish her doctorate she signed up for a ratings clinic and was pronounced a 4.5! :confused: Yeah, right. Shawn was an INCREDIBLE player. Just goes to show you how accurate the ratings clinics are, now doesn't it?

And Cecil Mammit? Heaven's Sake!!! That guy is still like what, 30 years old? I bet a lot of people pretty much know their money is wasted when they enter a tourney with him in the draw, even at the 5.5 level!! :(

I'm not sure what would work better than our current system, but it certainly does have its pitfalls!!

CC

BounceHitBounceHit
02-25-2007, 07:29 AM
I just want to add that while I do not know Cecil Mammit personally (though I did meet him once very briefly at the Memphis Indoor Tournament many years back) I understand from people who DO know him that he is just a great guy. I am certain he was NOT sand-bagging. Rather, I suspect he was caught in the 'ratings game' as was Shawn. Best, CC

BounceHitBounceHit
02-25-2007, 07:31 AM
Sorry.......just in case you didn't read it in another thread, allow me to post the thoughts of one my close pals who is a teaching pro on these matters. I think it drives the point home well!

"I competed successfully in The Orange Bowl, how can I show up to play the 4.5's with a straight face??" :confused:

Best,

CC

onehandbh
02-26-2007, 09:30 AM
cecil would never attempt to cheat and sandbag in leagues.
the computer probably automatically gave him a usta rating b/c he played
an open tournament at some time.

plus i highly doubt he would even have time given his heavy tournament
schedule:

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/activity.asp?player=10008505

Raiden.Kaminari
02-27-2007, 12:05 PM
cecil would never attempt to cheat and sandbag in leagues.
the computer probably automatically gave him a usta rating b/c he played
an open tournament at some time.

plus i highly doubt he would even have time given his heavy tournament
schedule:

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/activity.asp?player=10008505

Cecil wasn't the one who "self-rated." The computer had assigned him the rating after he encountered league players in an open tournament. That's why the NTRP computer algorithm is really screwed at the higher levels. There is an exponential nature even within the levels at the higher NTRPs, while the lower levels are more linear.

Leticia McCaig on the otherhand, did self-rate poorly.

Although, if you're not practicing at the highest level, it is possible to drop off. But not from 6.0 to 3.5 like Leticia did. She was cheating, pure and simple. I heard she finally got suspended for 6 months.

BounceHitBounceHit
02-27-2007, 06:25 PM
[QUOTE=Raiden.Kaminari;1280672]Cecil wasn't the one who "self-rated." The computer had assigned him the rating after he encountered league players in an open tournament. That's why the NTRP computer algorithm is really screwed at the higher levels. There is an exponential nature even within the levels at the higher NTRPs, while the lower levels are more linear.
QUOTE]

Yes, please let me be clear. As I said above, I am certain Cecil was NOT attempting to cheat. CC

Raiden.Kaminari
03-01-2007, 11:38 AM
This topic brings up a bigger problem.

With the influx of Div 1. and Div 2. college players to USTA, 4.5 has really become more like a weapons race.

Which then screws up the ratings at lower levels.

And it's happening at the bottom too. I've seen 2.5 players that should have self-rated 3.5.

It's really screwing up tennis for beginners, many who just quit because they get so frustrated.

J011yroger
03-01-2007, 02:02 PM
Hey, I am a top 10 in my section, national tournament caliber open player, and I regularly get asked to play in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, and open leagues. the captain of a 3.5 team told me he made it to sectionals last year, and if I played that they would def make it to nationals. I was like, dude, I would be embarassed to say I owned a 3.5 trophy, and a 4.5 trophy would be a paperweight to me. Let someone who worked hard to get to that level have the trophy.

I tell these league players that I would rather get whooped by the #1 player from pepperdine than bagel some 3.5 guy.

I would consider the 5.5/open league, but I would have to meet the guys and see what they are like.

J

Kaptain Karl
03-01-2007, 02:49 PM
I agree with J011yroger. I have never played an NTRP Tourney.

When the "new" USTA system came out -- replacing the A, B and C tourneys -- I chose to simply play Open tourneys. (I was already playing "A" tennis.)

We had "trophy hunters" back in the A, B, C days. The NTRP just created more "levels" in which to collect their "iron". Phooey!

At 45 I returned to tennis after 20 years "off". I've played Age Group tourneys ever since. (Some of my buddies keep telling me how much fun it is to play the NTRP 4.5s ... how the HS and College kids cannot handle the variety of spins we regularly employ.) I just chuckle ... and call them "Trophy Hunters."

- KK

J011yroger
03-01-2007, 04:37 PM
Hey, I, at the tender age of 24, do not claim to be above throwing junk. More for the element of surprise than because I am good at it, but throwing junk can be extremely effective if you have the big steam to back it up/contrast with. I find it is one of those things where the less you do it, the better it works.

J

BounceHitBounceHit
03-01-2007, 04:49 PM
Hey, I, at the tender age of 24, do not claim to be above throwing junk. More for the element of surprise than because I am good at it, but throwing junk can be extremely effective if you have the big steam to back it up/contrast with. I find it is one of those things where the less you do it, the better it works.

J


Amen. One of the ways I've 'upped' my game is by using LOTS of variety. European players and South Americans are great at this because they typically grew up on clay, where it is mandatory for any real success. I like to vary the pace, spin, depth, and even strategy (ie mixing in s/v w/ staying back and attacking short balls). It seems to perplex many 'power players' who will become VERY frustrated when not allowed to hit balls waist to chest high, ie their 'comfort zone'. When robbed of pace, many will almost immediately start over-hitting. I think there is FAR too much emphasis placed on power nowadays. ;) CC

J011yroger
03-01-2007, 05:19 PM
No No...you are still required to hit the balls between waist and chest high to me with top and pace, I just now have the liberty of deciding to, or not to blast them back.

lol

J

Raiden.Kaminari
03-01-2007, 06:09 PM
I like that term ... trophy hunters.

League play which is pretty bad now.

Unfortunately, the 5.5 ranks have been mostly wiped out because of all the sand bagging 4.5 players.

I believe that many of the players that decided to "game the system" are doing it because they are not able to compete on an even playing field. Open tournaments are fun because they require you to be at the top of your level.

BounceHitBounceHit
03-01-2007, 06:25 PM
No No...you are still required to hit the balls between waist and chest high to me with top and pace, I just now have the liberty of deciding to, or not to blast them back.

lol

J

OK, fair enough. ;) Actually I too MUCH prefer the 'power players' to the wiley junk-ballers. CC

dennis10is
03-01-2007, 06:57 PM
No No...you are still required to hit the balls between waist and chest high to me with top and pace, I just now have the liberty of deciding to, or not to blast them back.

lol

J

J,

My friend "V" hit with you last week. I asked him if he was tennis2006 but haven't heard the reply yet. And yes, his scouting report indeed support your love of midlevel balls with pace and top :)

The measure of how good you are is who you beat, how many times AND the network of won and losses among a collection of players. Recreational players are obsessed about NTRP ratings, much like men obsessing about the length of the you know what.

As far as competition is concerned. I do truly believe that you make a distinction between a friendly competition and real, honest competition, which is war on the tennis court. I think that it is possible to be a 5.0 a treat it as a dedicated but still recreational activity. Anything above that requires a dedication of resources that goes beyond what most normal people with jobs and responsibilities other than tennis, can allocate to. Now, if you were higher and now you are semi-retired, you can backslide down to say a 5.5/6.0 but these former pros are in a different category.

J011yroger
03-02-2007, 06:38 PM
OK, fair enough. ;) Actually I too MUCH prefer the 'power players' to the wiley junk-ballers. CC

I would love to get a hit in with ya. People say I am not gracefull enough to play tennis, and I tell them that I am not, I just hit the snot out of the ball and hope for the best.

J

J011yroger
03-02-2007, 06:43 PM
J,

My friend "V" hit with you last week. I asked him if he was tennis2006 but haven't heard the reply yet. And yes, his scouting report indeed support your love of midlevel balls with pace and top :)

The measure of how good you are is who you beat, how many times AND the network of won and losses among a collection of players. Recreational players are obsessed about NTRP ratings, much like men obsessing about the length of the you know what.

As far as competition is concerned. I do truly believe that you make a distinction between a friendly competition and real, honest competition, which is war on the tennis court. I think that it is possible to be a 5.0 a treat it as a dedicated but still recreational activity. Anything above that requires a dedication of resources that goes beyond what most normal people with jobs and responsibilities other than tennis, can allocate to. Now, if you were higher and now you are semi-retired, you can backslide down to say a 5.5/6.0 but these former pros are in a different category.

Ya, he is tennis2006, I have hit with him twice, and planning to again sunday. He has a nice clean game, and plays smart. When we hit, I find myself being lured into playing at his speed instead of mine, something I plan on working on.

We gotta get together and hit some balls, I just got a new cellphone, so I will e-mail you the new number. Hopefully V's scouting report didn't reveal too much, although I don't think it would much matter, it isn't too much of a secret what I am trying to do out there.

J

johnkidd
03-02-2007, 07:31 PM
I agree with the comments about better players not playing enough for rankings. I was ranked in my district one year (#6) because I plaed enought tournaments and got to two quarters and two semis. There was no way I was the 6th best player in that district. I also agree with the premise on how much you are able to play and train determines what level you play at.

TonLars
03-04-2007, 01:30 PM
Basically, the NTRP rating system is only in place for the leagues and tournaments by ability level. So in other words, up to 4.5-5.0. There really arent local 5.5 or 6.0 team tennis leagues and tournaments, haha... so I agree with the original post- that beyond this players are judged on ones achievements, results, and rankings in tournaments. People at the 5.5+ level are playing tough college tennis, stepping into the Futures and then Challenger pro tournaments, and then you have the top 100 known name pro players at the big events. You dont hear people saying "Oh yeah Roger Federer yeah that guy is definitely a high level/strong 7.0 player, and that Ben Becker guy, yeah he is maybe a solid to weak 6.5". Lol! I think the whole NTRP thing is to foster competitive matches between players of similar ability. This isnt the goal for 5.5+ players who are all very good/improving, and competing to win, and so its all open entry or based upon past results to qualify.

Venetian
03-04-2007, 04:20 PM
I like the idea of not having any half ratings. Do away with 2.5, 3.5, and 4.5 I say.

J011yroger
03-04-2007, 07:01 PM
Yea, Open/A/B/C would be very nice.

But the thread topic wasn't NTRPs of 1.0-4.5, I was talking about 5.0, 5.5, and 6.0. And how to distinguish between them in the current system. Because in real life, once you get to 5.0 all that ntrp stuff gets real hazy, if it doesn't go out the window.

Thankfully I don't live in leaguesville, so I don't really have to deal with sandbaggers and so forth. That is the beautiful thing about open, anyone can play, and whoever is on the other side of the net, you whoop his ***, and don't worry about if he is sandbagging, or if he belongs at this level. The only thing I have to deal with are 4.0s/4.5s who say/think they are 5.0s/5.5s. But usually I can guilt them into paying for the court time if I call them on it :).

tennis-n-sc
03-05-2007, 03:16 AM
Why would anyone attempt to self-rate at a 5.5 or higher NTRP rating? By far and away, DNTRP ratings are based on adult league and senior league play results and you just don't find many 5.5 leagues. These are your open tournament players and it is where many college players, former pros and and teaching pros play. Since tournament play no longer is considered as a basis for DNTRP ratings, self-ratings gonvern and they will swing wildly. I suppose the tournaments will now be used to solely dictate seedings based on state, sectional and national rankings and standings. But around here, the open division comes after 4.5. There just aren't enough higher level players to have a 5.0 or 5.5 level. But the open level always draws a great crowd of spectators.

J011yroger
03-05-2007, 03:25 AM
Not talking about a USTA Rating, just people who say. "Yea, I play 5.0" that want to play you, and then you meet up with them, and they cannot even return your normal rally ball.

There are 5.5/Open leagues here, and there are a couple of teams (Maybe 5), so that is the only reason you would self rate 5.5.

J

Kaptain Karl
03-05-2007, 04:34 AM
Not talking about a USTA Rating, just people who say. "Yea, I play 5.0" that want to play you, and then you meet up with them, and they cannot even return your normal rally ball.Ohhh! (I didn't understand your OP either.)

But, MAN!!!, did you just bring back memories...! I remember when I'd moved to a new town in the early 80s, I told everyone I met I was a tennis player and was trying to get "connected" to the local tennis scene. Occasionally, someone would volunteer to play me....

Once -- and this really happened -- a guy showed-up with a T-2000 in a PRESS, and a can of mis-matched tennis balls, including one very-old-and-dirty Dunlop, and one Tretorn which barely had a cover left on the rubber. (That was a miserable hour and a half....)

After that experience I stopped being so "open" about who I hit with. I'd warn whomever offered to play, "This might seem rude, but I don't want to waste time for either of us. I play "A" and "Open" tournaments, and I was a scholarship player in college. Do you still want to hit with me?" (I think that helped cut down on the "Gomers" wanting to play me....)

Now I run our Town's Ladder, so I hit with any and all who inquire ... encourage them to play on the Ladder ... and even give them an idea of which "third" of the ladder I believe they'll "fit". They (almost always) appreciate knowing their are plenty of good folks with whom to hit ... at their level.

- KK

J011yroger
03-07-2007, 02:19 PM
KK,

I was giving a lesson on a public court, and one of my buddies was hanging out waiting for me to get done, and this guy comes up to him asking if he knows me, if I am any good, like he wants to play me.

So my buddie says "I don't know man, J hits a pretty big ball." to which the guy replies "Wow, I didn't even know they came in different sizes!"

J

Raiden.Kaminari
03-07-2007, 05:03 PM
LOL :grin:

Some of what you guys are saying brings back some (painful) memories of hitting with wannabees. But I also had a bad habit of encouraging them to practice more so that they'll eventually catch up, which is probably how I ended up being an instructor :confused:

Anyway, NTRP is indeed broken at the higher level. If they would set Roger Federer to 8.0, and nearly all the top ten to 7.5, then the algorithm stands a chance of working. But the present algorithm doesn't know how to handle the minute differences of the advanced players.

zapvor
03-08-2007, 10:29 PM
KK,

I was giving a lesson on a public court, and one of my buddies was hanging out waiting for me to get done, and this guy comes up to him asking if he knows me, if I am any good, like he wants to play me.

So my buddie says "I don't know man, J hits a pretty big ball." to which the guy replies "Wow, I didn't even know they came in different sizes!"

J

hahaha. you shouldl definitely play him. and post a video.

J011yroger
03-09-2007, 02:48 AM
Looking to get a sports camcorder probably at the end of the month, then video will be forthcoming.

Didn't see any point in buying one till the outdoor season started.

J

35ft6
05-12-2007, 03:42 AM
Question is, how is a person supposed to know if they are a 5.5 player, if they do not have a ranking. What I have been saying lately is that they cant. My position is that recreational play tops out at 5.0 and if you claim to be higher than that, you need a present or former ranking to back it up. I agree. And maybe it tops out at 4.5.The reason I am posting this, and have taken my stance (Which is open to change) is that I personally can't tell just by looking at the people play. I have trouble judging the ball speed and ability levels, unless I play the person. I rarely underestimate people, but I have overestimated people sometimes. You're right -- it's all about how you play in a match. If you watch a guy ranked 1000 in the world just hitting with a guy ranked 50 in the world, it's tough to tell who's better.I was thinking about this, and I have come to my own conclusion of sorts. 4.5-5.0 is really a quantum leap. I actually think 5.0 to 6.0 is tougher. Or maybe even 5.5 to 6.0. In the beginning, it's really just a matter of time spent on court, but as you get better, it's much more than that. You can be stuck in 5.0 land forever no matter how often you play. And Cecil Mammit? Heaven's Sake!!! That guy is still like what, 30 years old? I bet a lot of people pretty much know their money is wasted when they enter a tourney with him in the draw, even at the 5.5 level!! :( Cecil would only lose a handful of games in 4 or 5 rounds against 5.5 opponents, if that. And only because he's not trying.

I don't know. At my peak, I was probably a strong 5.5. I agree the NTRP rating is elusive, but maybe mostly because people lie about their rating so much, contributing to the noise and confusion. And I agree that a 5.5 will almost invariably have played seriously as a junior or in college, even if it was a lower level college. To me, the 6.0 player is a rock solid open level player, like top 50 in So Cal, maybe top 10 in a less competitive region. Maybe he's still playing at a top d-2 school, or a really good d-1 school.

But put up an ad on Craigslist and you'll be amazed by how many 5.5 players there are. Some have never even played a tournament. Their tennis skill is mostly kept a secret.

zapvor
05-12-2007, 10:02 AM
But put up an ad on Craigslist and you'll be amazed by how many 5.5 players there are. Some have never even played a tournament. Their tennis skill is mostly kept a secret.

so you are saying they are 5.5 but just have been hiding? if they truly are 5.5 why wouldnt they have played tournment, and its on CL looking for partners? i would think by that level theyd have regular partners,etc

35ft6
05-12-2007, 02:16 PM
so you are saying they are 5.5 but just have been hiding? if they truly are 5.5 why wouldnt they have played tournment, and its on CL looking for partners? i would think by that level theyd have regular partners,etc I was being sarcastic. What you'll find out is that is that all these 5.5 players are really 3.5 to 4.0 players, and even after you smoke them 0 and 0, they'll just say they're rusty and say they want a rematch (insert future date here) when they're good again.

zapvor
05-12-2007, 04:29 PM
I was being sarcastic. What you'll find out is that is that all these 5.5 players are really 3.5 to 4.0 players, and even after you smoke them 0 and 0, they'll just say they're rusty and say they want a rematch (insert future date here) when they're good again.

ahhhhh ok. thats what i thought. you got me!

J011yroger
05-12-2007, 04:53 PM
I was being sarcastic. What you'll find out is that is that all these 5.5 players are really 3.5 to 4.0 players, and even after you smoke them 0 and 0, they'll just say they're rusty and say they want a rematch (insert future date here) when they're good again.

I have played/beaten rusty 5.5 players, there is no way to confuse them with a 3.5-4.0 player, when you beat a rusty 5.5 even if the score is lopsided, you know you got away with one.

When I get a 3.5-4.0 player who claims to be 5.0/5.5 and wants a rematch where "Hopefully they will play better" I always say "No prob, gimme a call when you are ready, but if you lose, lunch is on you"

On the other hand, if someone really is a good player, and just having an off day, I am really sympathetic, because I know what it is like. On a bad day I would get laughed off of a 4.0 league team, on a good day people come up to me and ask if I play on tour.

Hopefully after this year of tournaments I wont be so streaky, and random parts of my game wont just decide to go on vacation, or call in sick, or worse, no call no show. It is a bummer that I am probably gonna have to play 20+ tournaments this year to get enough wins to finish in the top 10 of my section when I had originally planned to play only 10-15. Playing tourneys every weekend kind of kills practice time, which really hurts improvement.

J

35ft6
05-14-2007, 05:04 AM
When I get a 3.5-4.0 player who claims to be 5.0/5.5 and wants a rematch where "Hopefully they will play better" I always say "No prob, gimme a call when you are ready, but if you lose, lunch is on you"I've been burned by Craigslist so much. Finally, this guy responds, says he was a highly ranked junior in Asia, just getting over an injury, willing to hit. I was elated. I don't get to hit with players that good normally. We go out there, first thing I notice is he's hitting a continental forehand. Guy was about 26 or so. Bad day. I was really annoyed but I was nice. He kept apologizing, saying he needs to get his "mojo" back. A few weeks later he wrote me saying he had his mojo back, he was ready to play. But you can tell in about 2 minutes if a player is good or if he was ever good. Hit with a guy who used to play serious D-1 tennis. I could tell he was good on the first heavy ball he hit. He was rusty as hell, but I could tell he once played at a much higher level than I'd ever played at.On the other hand, if someone really is a good player, and just having an off day, I am really sympathetic, because I know what it is like. On a bad day I would get laughed off of a 4.0 league team, on a good day people come up to me and ask if I play on tour. After about a 7 month layoff, went to play with a friend who I knew wasn't a strong player, so took my ball basket with the intention of asking my friend to feed me some balls at the end of the hit and giggle. My timing was so off that I was just cranking flat forehands. I was actually getting really lucky. I was killing forehands and they were all going in. Some guys were watching and they asked me if I was a pro. Hahaha! What beginners like them don't realize is that if I were playing good, and actually had some control and footwork going, I would NOT be hitting that hard. I was hitting that hard because I couldn't do anything else. I'm just beginning to be able to hit a nice ball in corners. Hitting out like I was that day was a desperation thing. Plus, I was getting lucky. Good players hit nice, deep, consistent balls, they don't swing like idiots. Still working on getting that back.

Solat
05-14-2007, 06:32 AM
this is an interesting thread, it is so hard to perceive your own game by watching others play. I am a club pro, i watch people play all day, i watch decent standard guys knocking balls around, hitting big shots and the like and i wonder how good they are compared to me. I cannot picture hitting the ball particularly harder then them, looks like some big serving from side on, but i had the chance to hit with 3 guys and make up a dubs when i had a lesson cancel. I was a little concerned coz i hadnt had a decent hit for 6 weeks. Once i was on court it was like slo mo, i didnt have to split step on returns, i had time to change grips between ebh & swfh (which i can't do at my normal level) on the return of serve. Poached far to easily, hit about 4 clean winners thru the middle off groundies, all without playing that well. Its strange to know that you look better then these types of players when you get on court.

Back to the OP, its all in the head after a certain level, who plays smarter, whether its the big winner off the right ball or the repitition of deep balls into a bh corner its using what you own to out do what they own, which isn't necessary at lower levels. But also its the double fault ona big point, the risky dtl stroke or loss of fitness deep in the third that can cost.

onehandbh
05-14-2007, 09:14 AM
Once i was on court it was like slo mo, i didnt have to split step on returns, i had time to change grips between ebh & swfh (which i can't do at my normal level) on the return of serve. Poached far to easily, hit about 4 clean winners thru the middle off groundies, all without playing that well. Its strange to know that you look better then these types of players when you get on court.


I've experienced that too, but I was the one who underestimated the
other guy. I saw this guy standing really far from the wall hitting flat
ground strokes and letting the ball bounce twice before hitting it. Looked
really smooth, but from just glancing over at him hitting the ball I had no
idea he was a pro. Somebody asked him to play doubles with us since we
needed a fourth. The guy's groundstrokes were penetrating. The 1st
serve was easily 120. Also he closed the net SUPER fast and crushed
volleys. Very balanced and in control on lunging volleys. I definitely
couldn't hit the ball through this guy. Forced some errors every once
in a while with my serve though.

DavaiMarat
05-16-2007, 07:04 AM
Hi,

I was rated NTRP 5.0-5.5 and truthfully I'm not sure what that means either. It's actually been a detriment to me in some respects. My competitive days are pretty much long behind me now and I play now to just enjoy and help others enjoy tennis. However, my rating prevents me from even being able to sign up for alot of things or even use the automatic game finder with people below 4.75. Anyhow enough about that, now to your question.

How can you tell what rating you are? What does that number mean?

In reality it's just a ball park estimation. There is a huge variance throughout the scale even at the 3.0-4.0. level. It all depends on how scrutinizing the coach is judging you.

I'd like to think your tennis is more a game of peers. If you play with a certain group of fellows, you'll be classified about 'thier' skill level. If you hit with the big guns of the club, you'll be in thier circle and be put in that 'category'. Also, it depends on what leagues you participate in, A, B, C's etc. If your invited to play on the Men's 'A' team at your club, you're an 'A' player or A2,B1,B2...etc...the list goes on from there.

So reality, when you reach a high enough level, NTRP ratings really mean nothing. At that level you throw numbers out the window and you look at styles. You're like player A will give player B problem because of a hard serve and solid ground game...or player B will give player A problem because of speed and a crafty net game.

You're reputation is more important then your NTRP rating after you go beyond the 5.0 level.

I hope this helped.

J011yroger
05-16-2007, 02:01 PM
^^^ There is no rating by coaches anymore, that situation is over and done with. The players I am talking about are beyond league play, and in college or open tournament, or pro tournament play. These are the best players in their towns, or states, or clubs.

As far as it being a detriment to you, that is a little silly. A good solid 4.5 can hit or practice with a 5.5 player, but actual match play would be no contest, the 4.5 would be lucky to lose 1 and 1.

Like I said earlier in the post, my stance was that if you don't have creds, you are not better than a 5.0 player, and rare is the 5.0 that doesn't have creds, they do exist, but they are the very top tier recreational players.

Did you read the entire thread or just my first post?

J

johnny ballgame
07-26-2007, 05:40 AM
A good solid 4.5 can hit or practice with a 5.5 player, but actual match play would be no contest, the 4.5 would be lucky to lose 1 and 1.

J

Wait a minute, I'm sure you realize that there are plenty of people who play 4.5 leagues in SoCal, Florida, Atlanta and Texas that can beat "self-rated 5.0-5.5 players" who play "open tournaments" (like you perhaps). 4.5 in the best tennis cities/areas is significantly more competitive than 4.5 in other areas. Call it sandbagging, fine, but that's the reality.

WBF
07-26-2007, 02:24 PM
I didn't read all the posts here, but I feel the exact same way.

Sometimes I'll see someone hitting, and all their shots are deep and seem powerful. But then I go out and hit with them and they miss every other shot!

I think it can be difficult to judge someone (apart from whether they have solid fundamentals) unless you either play with them, or know what sort of shots they are getting from the opponent (some opponents might have good looking shots, but they might be easy to hit). Even then, some people will play entirely different in matches.

As for the NTRP? I think it accomplishes it's goals somewhat, but its goals are not to judge level of play; at this it fails miserably. Actual results are far more relevent.

tfm1973
09-28-2009, 11:52 AM
thought this thread was interesting to read on a lazy monday afternoon.

BUMP :)

jserve
09-28-2009, 12:44 PM
I'm not sure how it is in other sections, but a lot of the 5.5s that I know in the Seattle area got stuck with a 5.5 rating because they played college tennis. However, now that they don't train everyday like they did in a college program, their game is actually on the same level of most of the 5.0s.

It's rather unfortunate for these players because they are stuck rated too high for league play.

shell
09-28-2009, 12:51 PM
Yes, this was a VERY interesting read TFM.

tfm1973
09-28-2009, 03:31 PM
you're welcome shell. this thread has definitely opened my eyes a bit into the mindset of the really high level tennis players. definitely a good read for anyone who dreams about making it to the upper echelons of tennis.

papatenis
09-28-2009, 05:14 PM
simple answer. Anybody 4.5 or above should of played college tennis. Someone 5.0 or 5.5 is someone that just recently graduated from college.

Jracer77
09-28-2009, 07:16 PM
Hey, I am a top 10 in my section, national tournament caliber open player, and I regularly get asked to play in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, and open leagues. the captain of a 3.5 team told me he made it to sectionals last year, and if I played that they would def make it to nationals. I was like, dude, I would be embarassed to say I owned a 3.5 trophy, and a 4.5 trophy would be a paperweight to me. Let someone who worked hard to get to that level have the trophy.

I tell these league players that I would rather get whooped by the #1 player from pepperdine than bagel some 3.5 guy.

I would consider the 5.5/open league, but I would have to meet the guys and see what they are like.

J

This coming from a guy who's actual record merited a 3.5 to low 4.0 rating in another thread...LOL. Seems you've proven to be at best the 4.0 I said you were a couple of years ago...poser.

tfm1973
09-29-2009, 04:36 AM
I have played/beaten rusty 5.5 players, there is no way to confuse them with a 3.5-4.0 player, when you beat a rusty 5.5 even if the score is lopsided, you know you got away with one.

When I get a 3.5-4.0 player who claims to be 5.0/5.5 and wants a rematch where "Hopefully they will play better" I always say "No prob, gimme a call when you are ready, but if you lose, lunch is on you"

On the other hand, if someone really is a good player, and just having an off day, I am really sympathetic, because I know what it is like. On a bad day I would get laughed off of a 4.0 league team, on a good day people come up to me and ask if I play on tour.

Hopefully after this year of tournaments I wont be so streaky, and random parts of my game wont just decide to go on vacation, or call in sick, or worse, no call no show. It is a bummer that I am probably gonna have to play 20+ tournaments this year to get enough wins to finish in the top 10 of my section when I had originally planned to play only 10-15. Playing tourneys every weekend kind of kills practice time, which really hurts improvement.

J

very good info. i didn't know that i could be ranked nationally if i play enough tournaments. how you doing in tourneys in 2009?

drakulie
09-29-2009, 06:14 AM
wow, :shock: this is one CrAzY thread.

UnforcedError
09-29-2009, 08:13 AM
Hey, I am a top 10 in my section, national tournament caliber open player, and I regularly get asked to play in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, and open leagues. the captain of a 3.5 team told me he made it to sectionals last year, and if I played that they would def make it to nationals. I was like, dude, I would be embarassed to say I owned a 3.5 trophy, and a 4.5 trophy would be a paperweight to me. Let someone who worked hard to get to that level have the trophy.

I tell these league players that I would rather get whooped by the #1 player from pepperdine than bagel some 3.5 guy.

I would consider the 5.5/open league, but I would have to meet the guys and see what they are like.

J

Wow! Either there are only 10 people in his section or Jolly has some splaining to do. Is it too late to contact the 3.5 captain? I told myself I was going to avoid commenting in Jolly threads but this is just beyond belief. Serious question for Jolly, did you really believe what you wrote?

tfm1973
09-29-2009, 08:37 AM
your typical 3.5 player would get destroyed playing a legit open player. want proof?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=289240

drakulie
09-29-2009, 09:14 AM
Wow! Either there are only 10 people in his section or Jolly has some splaining to do. Is it too late to contact the 3.5 captain? I told myself I was going to avoid commenting in Jolly threads but this is just beyond belief. Serious question for Jolly, did you really believe what you wrote?

Im certain many 3.5 players on this board would feel very dissapointed and angry after reading this thread. I wouldn't blame them for being angry.

I have to say, after reading this whole thread, I'm not only very dissapointed, but feeling quite bad for, jo11yroger. I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person, and he is a great guy. Funny, charming, witty, and giving. I also enjoy reading his posts, and also enjoy everything he brings to the boards. However, his behavior of continuously putting players at the 3.5-4.5 level down is downright disgraceful.

Not only does he "look down on them", making comments such as using a 3.5 or 4.5 USTA tournament trophy as a paperweight, but makes himself out to be a 5.5+ player, and yet the irony here is, he is barely a 3.5 himself.

I sure hope his pal, dennis, has a strong arm for support, because after this, unlike the past, Dennis has nothing he could say to support all the BS.

I'm nearly at a loss for words here, and all I could add here is,,,,,,, feeling bad, and THIS IS VERY BAD.

UnforcedError
09-29-2009, 09:29 AM
I sure hope his pal, dennis, has a strong arm for support, because after this, unlike the past, Dennis has nothing he could say to support all the BS.

I'm nearly at a loss for words here, and all I could add here is,,,,,,, feeling bad, and THIS IS VERY BAD.

I know what you are saying, part of me feels a bit insulted and part of me feels bad for Jolly. I'm starting to think people like Dennis are actually a big part of the problem because it seems like Jolly has people around him that feed the grand delusion.

Kick_It
09-29-2009, 09:32 AM
A couple additions from my experience:

The clear majority of high level players I hang with don't give a hoot about NTRP. If you're that good you've got results elsewhere that show it.

IMO there are more competitive opportunities above 4.5 outside of NTRP elsewhere.

Demographically - above 4.5 - the law of small numbers works against you. Congratulations you're substantially better than the vast majority of players. The curse is there aren't many as good as you so it is hard to find competitive matches/players/etc.

It's just a number. Unless you really care about leagues and don't have other competitive opportunities elsewhere - why bother? I'd just play Opens.

To OP - what tangible difference is it to you if you are a 5.0 or a 5.5?

K_I

smoothtennis
09-29-2009, 10:43 AM
wow, :shock: this is one CrAzY thread.

With quotes from Jolly like this one....

I was like, dude, I would be embarassed to say I owned a 3.5 trophy, and a 4.5 trophy would be a paperweight to me.

I mean seriously, no S***?!

...we truly wonder how an innocent and completely honest guy has ever been accused of building the J0lly Hype Machine. I even fell for it a few years back, what a complete freaking joke, LOL.

Ah, the tricks our minds play on us sometimes.

JoelDali
09-29-2009, 11:53 AM
Proud member of the J0lly BLX Hype Machine(tm).

:O

Toad
09-29-2009, 11:55 AM
This thread was started over 2 years ago...I think we have all been delusional about our level of play at one point, and hey...I haven't personally seen Jolly's record so maybe he is amazing but that doesn't really concern me. I would love to hit with him if I ever get a chance just to put all of the speculations in perspective. I have never seen Jolly brag about how good he is recently, so I think he learned his lesson and it's time to move on.

As far as answering the very first question of the thread. In my mind: a 5.0 player is competitive in open tournaments with no prize money; a 5.5 player is winning open tournaments with no prize money and competitive in open tournaments with prize money; a 6.0 is winning open tournaments with prize money and able to win a few qualifying rounds in Futures tournaments; a 6.5 is competitive in Futures and Challengers; a 7.0 is consistently going deep in Futures and Challengers and can compete in the Majors.

SuperDuy
09-29-2009, 12:10 PM
what is the A B C approach in NTRP

like is it c: 3.0-4.0 b:4.0-5.0 c: 5.0-on

drakulie
09-29-2009, 01:23 PM
This thread was started over 2 years ago...

Which is when they "hype" started. A "hype" I'll remind you, the OP has continuously stated, he had no part in creating, which is clearly untrue. Fact is, as evidenced by the date of this thread, and date the OP became a member, the "hype" began almost the same date, as his join date.

I think we have all been delusional about our level of play at one point,

Agreed. Tennis players are egomaniacs. I'm one of them.

However, one thing is being delusional, another is outright lying. To add, insulting players "beneath him" and their accomplishments along the way.

I know tennis players from these boards whom have worked damn hard to get to the 3.5 level, have won matches at that level, including some first place trophies, only to have someone like the OP say he would use their trophies as "paperweights". As if to say, he is above them, and not worth the air they breathe. Sorry, but that is not cool in my book. Especially considering how proud some of these posters are of their accomplishments, and how hard they have worked to get there, only to be "pushed aside" by someone who as it turns out, is BENEATH their level.

Lastly, the fact that they (the real 3.5 players) don't carry the same "weight" with their posts, especially when he is posting, because everyone believes him to be a "HIGH LEVEL, HIGH CALIBER OPEN PLAYER". bLAH.

Only now do I understand why certain posters have a certain disdain for some of the comments the OP has posted over the course of the last year and a half, and I don't believe they have even seen this thread,,,,,,,,, YET.


and hey...I haven't personally seen Jolly's record so maybe he is amazing but that doesn't really concern me.

Oh, please. The comedy is over. He is **barely** a 3.5 (if that)

He has a 0-16 record against 4.5-5.0 players, has received 10 bagels at that level, numerous breadsticks, and this is against players who are mostly "doubles specialist". To add, was taken to a 6-4 set by a 3.0 player. That's right!!!! TAKEN TO 6-4 BY A 3.0 WHO HAS A LOSING RECORD.



I would love to hit with him if I ever get a chance just to put all of the speculations in perspective.

no need to "put all the specualtion in perspective". Everything I posted is a fact. Period. End of story. As I said, the CoMeDy is over.



I have never seen Jolly brag about how good he is recently, so I think he learned his lesson and it's time to move on.

Disagree. He lets the "hype" continue, and doesn't address it properly, and to add, as someone else stated, his buddy "dennis" contributes to it as well.


~Drakulie

AlpineCadet
09-29-2009, 01:24 PM
Finally!!!!!!

Topaz
09-29-2009, 01:32 PM
I really want to post in this here thread, but the OP said only 'highly rated' replies were welcome, so I guess I can't since I'm just a middling 3.5.

I'll just take my paperweights and go home.

OrangePower
09-29-2009, 02:13 PM
Wow this thread has taken an interesting turn...

I don't know Jolly, have no clue what his actual strength is, and don't really care one way or the other.

But I agree with what some posters said originally, that really NTRP becomes irrelevant once you reach 5.0 and above. NTRP only exists to provide some way of grouping together players of similar level for social play, and level-restricted leagues and tournaments.

Once you get to 5.0+, it's all about results against other high-level players. Ratings don't matter.

One more thing, as a 4.0 myself, I'm happy to admit that I suck, and that everyone who is under 5.0 sucks.

Not meant as an insult, just a reality check for everyone under 5.0, myself included. I think that once you get to 5.0, you have all the shots, tactics and strategy, and it becomes a matter of consistent execution. But below 5.0, our games are all lacking in one way or another.

Bud
09-29-2009, 02:28 PM
what is the A B C approach in NTRP

like is it c: 3.0-4.0 b:4.0-5.0 c: 5.0-on

From my experience...
D is below 3.0
C is 3-3.5
B is 3.5-4.0
A is 4.0 to 4.5
Open is above 4.5

Above are approximate... some overlap occurs.

Bud
09-29-2009, 02:36 PM
Wow this thread has taken an interesting turn...

I don't know Jolly, have no clue what his actual strength is, and don't really care one way or the other.

But I agree with what some posters said originally, that really NTRP becomes irrelevant once you reach 5.0 and above. NTRP only exists to provide some way of grouping together players of similar level for social play, and level-restricted leagues and tournaments.

Once you get to 5.0+, it's all about results against other high-level players. Ratings don't matter.

One more thing, as a 4.0 myself, I'm happy to admit that I suck, and that everyone who is under 5.0 sucks.

Not meant as an insult, just a reality check for everyone under 5.0, myself included. I think that once you get to 5.0, you have all the shots, tactics and strategy, and it becomes a matter of consistent execution. But below 5.0, our games are all lacking in one way or another.

I disagree with your harsh and inaccurate assessment. I watched a 3.0 match recently and it was actually very entertaining. The shots were going 9-10 stroke rallies but it was almost like they were playing in slow motion. Neither player was going for kill shots... but they were actually constructing points better than some higher level players I've seen.

Don't believe for a minute that those at 5.0 or above have 'all the shots, tactics and strategy'. Many at the upper levels have just maximized their strong points. I see many deficiencies even at the pro level when it comes to certain shots (slices, dropshots, point construction, etc.)

OrangePower
09-29-2009, 02:47 PM
I disagree with your harsh and inaccurate assessment. I watched a 3.0 match recently and it was actually very entertaining. The shots were going 9-10 stroke rallies but it was almost like they were playing in slow motion. Neither player was going for kill shots... but they were actually constructing points better than some higher level players I've seen.

Don't believe for a minute that those at 5.0 or above have 'all the shots, tactics and strategy'. Many at the upper levels have just maximized their strong points. I see many deficiencies even at the pro level when it comes to certain shots (slices, dropshots, point construction, etc.)

Well, you have to draw a line somewhere, and say that above that line, one can be considered 'good', but below that line you can't consider one as good.

I draw the line at 5.0, just based on my subjective assessment of how complete a game 5.0s have from what I've seen.

Being a 4.0 myself, I can say that all the players I have come across at this level, myself included, have decidedly incomplete games, and cannot be described as 'good'.

Where do you draw the line? At what level would you consider someone 'good'?

Bud
09-29-2009, 02:53 PM
Well, you have to draw a line somewhere, and say that above that line, one can be considered 'good', but below that line you can't consider one as good.

I draw the line at 5.0, just based on my subjective assessment of how complete a game 5.0s have from what I've seen.

Being a 4.0 myself, I can say that all the players I have come across at this level, myself included, have decidedly incomplete games, and cannot be described as 'good'.

Where do you draw the line? At what level would you consider someone 'good'?

I think it's unrealistic to call everyone below 5.0 not good. That's like 95% of the tennis playing population.

I think people are good at tennis from about 3.5 up. After good there is excellent... then superior... sublime, etc. However to simply label players as good or not good, based on an NTRP of 5.0 is way too limiting.

beernutz
09-29-2009, 02:56 PM
Wow, you don't read the forums for a while and something huge like Jolly being outed flies completely under your radar.

Can someone point out the thread where his true record was revealed? I can't seem to find it with search.

Bud
09-29-2009, 03:01 PM
Wow, you don't read the forums for a while and something huge like Jolly being outed flies completely under your radar.

Can someone point out the thread where his true record was revealed? I can't seem to find it with search.

See post #62

There is speculation about that being his record.

jserve
09-29-2009, 03:24 PM
Aren't all league/tourny trophies at best paperweights (mine end up in a box in the back of my closet). As an adult player, tennis is simply a fun hobby and I have better things to put on my mantle than tennis awards. Unless of course that trophy is from the US Open of course, then I would probably put it one a huge chain and wear it around my neck for all to see.

Shangri La
09-29-2009, 03:31 PM
But OP is an 'open player', no?? liek... 'Open'

Topaz
09-29-2009, 03:32 PM
But OP is an 'open player', no??

Do you really understand what an 'open' tournament is? It is 'open' to ALL players...of ALL levels.

So, when someone states they are an 'open' player, that doesn't necessarily correlate to a specific rating.

hollywood9826
09-29-2009, 04:20 PM
Some have speculated also that this would be his record as well. I don't know for sure though.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/Sup2Dresq/Misc/c53e1579.gif

beernutz
09-29-2009, 04:49 PM
Some have speculated also that this would be his record as well. I don't know for sure though.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb251/Sup2Dresq/Misc/c53e1579.gif

:shock:

Not what I expected.

Sup2Dresq
09-29-2009, 06:04 PM
I'm upset, not surprised,

Upset that I didn't know about this thread earlier. Could have saved me a lot of time dealing with the Jolly hype machine.

Not surprised .. just because.

All the best to ya Jolly aka "cleopatra".


:idea:
While I have your attention.

Can you please post and vote at this link? Help a "tennis associate" out?:-P

Like you beernutz?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=289240

Thanks and God Bless

Shangri La
09-29-2009, 07:23 PM
Do you really understand what an 'open' tournament is? It is 'open' to ALL players...of ALL levels.

So, when someone states they are an 'open' player, that doesn't necessarily correlate to a specific rating.

Ahh.. thanks for clarifying. I always thought 'open player' automatically means 5.0++, and I cringe whenever I hear these two words : D

smoothtennis
09-29-2009, 07:31 PM
Mmmmm...no response from Jolly? The silence is really getting loud.

drakulie
09-29-2009, 08:03 PM
Aren't all league/tourny trophies at best paperweights (mine end up in a box in the back of my closet).

No, they are not. They are symbols of an accomplishment one could be proud of. If you choose to use yours as a paperweight, or put it on the front of your car as a hood ornament>>>>>, then at least you earned that right. The OP didn't. get it?

To add, he is dissing on these people, and he is below their level (without the paperweight).

Jracer77
09-29-2009, 08:44 PM
Mmmmm...no response from Jolly? The silence is really getting loud.

Of course there is silence. What could he say? I'm sure he'd like this to all go away so he can begin cultivating the myth once again. You know, it's like an ant needing to rebuild his anthill after you just stepped on it.

JW10S
09-29-2009, 08:57 PM
For what it's worth, I know a guy who is the pro at a top tennis resort. Everyday people come in wanting to be matched up with other players. At first he used to take them at their word and if they said they were a 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, or whatever and he would match them up with a local player he knew was really of that level. Almost always the local player crushed the vacationer and they were often mad at my friend for wasting their time. So now whenever my friend gets a request for matchmaking he automatically deducts 1.5 NTRP points from the player's self rating then matches them up. He said it almost always works out. So, as a good rule of thumb, unless a player has a class ranking that you can verify you should deduct 1.5 points from their self rating and you will get the best idea as to what their real playing ability is. A player who one time entered an Open tournament is not an 'Open Player', a player who entered a 4.5 tournament and got killed in the 1st round is not a 4.5 player. Rarely are people as good as they say, or dream, they are--unless their verified results say otherwise. BTW, I've looked at the vids posted by the OP playing tennis, I'm not impressed...

Jracer77
09-29-2009, 09:31 PM
....... So now whenever my friend gets a request for matchmaking he automatically deducts 1.5 NTRP points from the player's self rating then matches them up....... BTW, I've looked at the vids posted by the OP playing tennis, I'm not impressed...

If the resort is in the US a quick check of tennislink might be useful in some cases. 1.5 points seems a little much but then he would know I guess. On the second point how can you not be impressed? It must have taken the guy hours and hours to edit out all of his missed shots. Surely that counts for something.

jserve
09-29-2009, 11:12 PM
For what it's worth, I know a guy who is the pro at a top tennis resort. Everyday people come in wanting to be matched up with other players. At first he used to take them at their word and if they said they were a 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, or whatever and he would match them up with a local player he knew was really of that level. Almost always the local player crushed the vacationer and they were often mad at my friend for wasting their time. So now whenever my friend gets a request for matchmaking he automatically deducts 1.5 NTRP points from the player's self rating then matches them up. He said it almost always works out. So, as a good rule of thumb, unless a player has a class ranking that you can verify you should deduct 1.5 points from their self rating and you will get the best idea as to what their real playing ability is. A player who one time entered an Open tournament is not an 'Open Player', a player who entered a 4.5 tournament and got killed in the 1st round is not a 4.5 player. Rarely are people as good as they say, or dream, they are--unless their verified results say otherwise. BTW, I've looked at the vids posted by the OP playing tennis, I'm not impressed...

I wouldn't be happy if a pro did that to me.

Topaz
09-30-2009, 01:24 AM
Ahh.. thanks for clarifying. I always thought 'open player' automatically means 5.0++, and I cringe whenever I hear these two words : D

No problem.

Generally speaking, when you are in an open tournament, it would make sense to expect a certain (higher) level player. But it isn't a 'rule' per say, and definitely not a requirement to enter.

So, if you hear someone throwing around 'I'm an open player' a bit tooooo much, you just might want to check them out in Tennislink first.

Topaz
09-30-2009, 01:39 AM
Mmmmm...no response from Jolly? The silence is really getting loud.

Wellll, he said only highly rated players were supposed to post on here........

*crickets chirping*

Since I was once ranked in my section (even at my middling 3.5 level) I'm hoping to find a loophole here so I can post.

For what it's worth, I know a guy who is the pro at a top tennis resort. Everyday people come in wanting to be matched up with other players. At first he used to take them at their word and if they said they were a 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, or whatever and he would match them up with a local player he knew was really of that level. Almost always the local player crushed the vacationer and they were often mad at my friend for wasting their time. So now whenever my friend gets a request for matchmaking he automatically deducts 1.5 NTRP points from the player's self rating then matches them up. He said it almost always works out. So, as a good rule of thumb, unless a player has a class ranking that you can verify you should deduct 1.5 points from their self rating and you will get the best idea as to what their real playing ability is. A player who one time entered an Open tournament is not an 'Open Player', a player who entered a 4.5 tournament and got killed in the 1st round is not a 4.5 player. Rarely are people as good as they say, or dream, they are--unless their verified results say otherwise. BTW, I've looked at the vids posted by the OP playing tennis, I'm not impressed...

IMO, a lot of this can be attributed to the difference in the 'guidelines' that people read online, and the *actual* levels of play in leagues and tournaments at those levels. They don't even come close to matching up, so I'm not surprised your friend has to do that with people who don't have an actual computer rating.

Cindysphinx
09-30-2009, 04:17 AM
Wow.

I just read all of the recent Jolly-bashing threads. They are downright creepy, with the target clearly reading the harsh words and not defending himself or rebutting any of it.

It seems to me that there was some Major Puffery going on, and it has been exposed. And exposed. And then it was exposed. And then someone exposed it.

Maybe we should just let it go at this point?

It's unfortunate that all of this happened because Jolly does seem like a good guy, and sometimes a good person gets so tangled in a web of exaggeration that there is no graceful exit to be found. It would be delightful if Jolly stepped up and said something to clear the air, but maybe even that isn't necessary.

Perhaps we can be Big Enough to declare a unilateral cease fire?

Sup2Dresq
09-30-2009, 04:25 AM
You are wise Cindy, except it will repeat itself in about a month like before.

So perhaps this last "proof" has eliminated the doubt and at least given enough substance for next time.

If that doesn't work nothing will.


So next time there is a problem with "jollygate" again, there is a couple threads to help and of course we should end each conclusion moving forward with:

http://blogs.king5.com/the_pet_dish/keyboard_cat.jpg

Cindysphinx
09-30-2009, 04:58 AM
Fair enough, Sup. I agree that it is not right to allow grotesque mischaracterizations of someone's tennis prowess to go unchallenged in perpetuity.

Still. I have the same sick feeling I get when my kids fight. After a while, there are more important things to worry about than who started it.

smoothtennis
09-30-2009, 06:38 AM
I guess what irks me folks, is that although not as severe as this go 'round, we already did this last year if I remember correctly. We saw the record, the results, and came to the same conclusions. I thought it was over----but oh no.

The thing that surprises me most is that the hype engine not only started up again, but that all of Jolly's buddies came to the rescue in the Jolly Rig Thread - stating that Jolly has never hyped his own abilities - only that others have done it as he stood by silent. Well that was a load of bull.

Me? I know I suck. And I too, have been pretty self delusional a few years back as to my own abilities. I am reformed, LOL.

I actually like the persona, 'Jolly'. And believe it or not, I enjoy watching his vids just for the pure fun of watching another guy play the shots. You know, he hits some good shots I'll give him that much. Technique - well not so much, but we know how that is for most of us.

I was hoping he would come clean - seeing clearly that he HAS Hyped himself in ways that are even demeaning to others levels. But he hasn't. I ask myself why.

I am starting to believe that he somehow, in some way, actually believes the hype - hence the silence. Let's hope that is the case because the only other option is premeditated deception.

drakulie
09-30-2009, 06:45 AM
Wow.

I just read all of the recent Jolly-bashing threads. They are downright creepy, with the target clearly reading the harsh words and not defending himself or rebutting any of it.

It seems to me that there was some Major Puffery going on, and it has been exposed. And exposed. And then it was exposed. And then someone exposed it.

Maybe we should just let it go at this point?

It's unfortunate that all of this happened because Jolly does seem like a good guy, and sometimes a good person gets so tangled in a web of exaggeration that there is no graceful exit to be found. It would be delightful if Jolly stepped up and said something to clear the air, but maybe even that isn't necessary.

Perhaps we can be Big Enough to declare a unilateral cease fire?


Good post, and thanks for sharing. In the interest of everything being discussed here, I'd like to once again mention, that like you, I really like Jolly, very much have always enjoyed his posts, and hope he will continue to post, because he is a great personality on the boards, and offers much.

As for the "open" thing>>> unlike some who will say he is waisting his time playing open tourneys, and whatever else the case may be, I think it's great he plays open tournaments. It's his money, and most people who play tennis will never have that experience. .... either because of time constraints, or other matters. Additionally, he is able to face players most of us have to "pay to play" being many are ex-pros/high-level collegiate players/teaching pros, etc. He is not only getting to play in Open tourneys, but is getting the experience of facing very high caliber players, so kudos to him.


smoothtennis, agree with everyting you state. Like you, I also very much enjoy his vids, like I do with everyone's vids. We are all hacks so it is nice to see people one would never even be able to meet, especially the guys/gals that posts their vids from overseas.

Sup2Dresq
09-30-2009, 07:14 AM
I guess what irks me folks, is that although not as severe as this go 'round, we already did this last year if I remember correctly. We saw the record, the results, and came to the same conclusions. I thought it was over----but oh no.

The thing that surprises me most is that the hype engine not only started up again, but that all of Jolly's buddies came to the rescue in the Jolly Rig Thread - stating that Jolly has never hyped his own abilities - only that others have done it as he stood by silent. Well that was a load of bull.

Me? I know I suck. And I too, have been pretty self delusional a few years back as to my own abilities. I am reformed, LOL.

I actually like the persona, 'Jolly'. And believe it or not, I enjoy watching his vids just for the pure fun of watching another guy play the shots. You know, he hits some good shots I'll give him that much. Technique - well not so much, but we know how that is for most of us.

I was hoping he would come clean - seeing clearly that he HAS Hyped himself in ways that are even demeaning to others levels. But he hasn't. I ask myself why.

I am starting to believe that he somehow, in some way, actually believes the hype - hence the silence. Let's hope that is the case because the only other option is premeditated deception.

I salute you smoothtennis for this post.

http://colorburned.com/imagesgalleryimages/The%20Salute.jpg

I, like Drakulie , also like Jolly and enjoy his funny posts. However I drew the line when it came to the "hype". I even went to him offline before all of this to talk about it and got "I'm totally awesome.. solomon grundy!".

He'll probably dislike me, hates me, despises me.. but hopefully he sees the light and starts playing tennis within himself. If he improves the right way I would like to take this time to say "I take full credit" for setting his behind back on track.

Toast to hoping Jolly doesn't become a cleopatra "queen of de-nial"

http://3alleypub.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/beer_toast1.jpg

jrod
09-30-2009, 07:41 AM
...It seems to me that there was some Major Puffery going on...


Not to detract from all the speculation and bashing but, I really like this word Puffery. It's really a very useful term to describe much of what we see not only on the boards, but in everyday life. The boards are ideal for Major Puffery, since no one is really held accountable in the virtual world. Nevertheless, Puffery is on display in the real world all the time.

In my opinion, Puffery is a defense mechanism primarily. Very few individuals feel good enough about themselves to never rely on some degree of Puffery. When you meet someone who does not rely on Puffery, its actually quite refreshing.

I agree with Drak on this score: People should feel good about what they have accomplished. There will always be better players, smarter people, richer people with faster cars, bigger houses, etc. So what?

Now while Jo11y may rely on Puffery, his posts and his persona are still unique and informative. Cut him some slack folks. It's not like the rest of us don't resort to Puffery.

Topaz
09-30-2009, 08:39 AM
I was hoping he would come clean - seeing clearly that he HAS Hyped himself in ways that are even demeaning to others levels. But he hasn't. I ask myself why.

Truth hurts.

SuperDuy
09-30-2009, 09:29 AM
From my experience...
D is below 3.0
C is 3-3.5
B is 3.5-4.0
A is 4.0 to 4.5
Open is above 4.5

Above are approximate... some overlap occurs.

k cause at my club, open is above 5.0 a is 4 to 5 b is 3 to 4 c is just 3

any1 else have opinions on abc open

OrangePower
09-30-2009, 09:30 AM
I think it's unrealistic to call everyone below 5.0 not good. That's like 95% of the tennis playing population.

I think people are good at tennis from about 3.5 up. After good there is excellent... then superior... sublime, etc. However to simply label players as good or not good, based on an NTRP of 5.0 is way too limiting.

Bud, for a while there I missed your response amidst all the Jollygate postings.

Anyway, my point was that no matter where we draw the line of when you can consider someone 'good', we will be excluding a lot of players who are working hard to improve and who are deservedly proud of their game.

You've set the bar at 3.5, so there's a bunch of 3.0 out there that might take that as an insult, since you have labeled them as not good.

My perspective is that there's no shame in not being 'good'. I just think that to be good you need to have mastery of most aspects of the game, and I don't see that in players below 5.0.

Again, this coming from a 4.0 who is decidedly not good, and not ashamed to admit it :-)

ohplease
09-30-2009, 10:04 AM
Here's the thing: we all know ratings are bunk. There's USTA league ratings and there's Craigslist ratings, and never the twain shall meet. One response to that is to say - "screw it - I'm just going to play Open."

So Jolly does that. Good for him. What he's not doing (and for which people are rightfully taking him to task) is learning to compete. There might not be much meaning behind 3.5 vs. 4.0 vs. 4.5 (more on that later), but there would be real value for Jolly in doing time in those leagues.

And that brings us to the real problem. Due to the team and incentive structure of USTA leagues (which can be reasonably characterized as the one true source of USTA ratings, yes?), the rating system is a complete mess. Forget where you think your game belongs - what really matters is the choice of winning vary rarely, sometimes, or all the time. I can drop match tough 3.5 sectional teams wholesale into 4.0 and 4.5 local leagues, and I wouldn't be the least surprised to find out they'd do well at the more advanced levels, too. That's not a guess, either - I've seen it happen repeatedly after people get bumped and reform at the higher levels - where the core of lower level teams make it to local league or even district level playoffs right after getting bumped. Maybe there's been some improvement in some aspect of their techniques - but what's really core to their success is the continued hiding of their weaknesses and application of their strengths - regardless of style, and frankly, of level, too.

Let's get this out of the way: Jolly's technique is likely better than his results. That's both a defense of the choices he's made in how he's developing his game, and the worst criticism I can possibly level at a tennis player. The whole point of tennis is to compete, and every time he - or anyone else, for that matter - chooses to dedicate time or energy to an aspect of their game that doesn't help them compete better, that's just missing the point, IMHO.

That said, there are places where missing the point is the point. Among friends, public parks, in private clubs, etc. Those places aren't tournaments or USTA leagues.

Still - all this piling on Jolly is deeply uncool. The man loves the sport, and made the mistake of cocking off on the internet 2 years ago. It's not like he's still using that tone now, so what? The only good thing about all of this is people should realize the deep differences between using the ratings to find someone worth hitting with vs. what those ratings mean in actual league play. The other good thing is what it says about competition-first vs. technique-first tennis development (answer: you need to work on both).

Topaz
09-30-2009, 11:12 AM
^^^He is still doing it now, that's the problem. Just, on various and sundry other threads.

I have to disagree that his technique is better than his results.

My .02.

rasajadad
09-30-2009, 11:16 AM
As I'm sure most of us will agree NTRP rating are HIGHLY subjective and are based on some sort of self rating, which is usually a joke or some rater's judgement of our stroke production. A couple of comments:
On the first topic- John McEnroe can self rate as a 5.0 next year. Any 5.0's here think they can beat him?
On the latter- Stroke production doesn't win tennis matches/tournaments.

I don't know Jolly, but I do know NTRP ratings.

Topaz
09-30-2009, 11:18 AM
As I'm sure most of us will agree NTRP rating are HIGHLY subjective and are based on some sort of self rating, which is usually a joke or some rater's judgement of our stroke production. A couple of comments:
On the first topic- John McEnroe can self rate as a 5.0 next year. Any 5.0's here think they can beat him?
On the latter- Stroke production doesn't win tennis matches/tournaments.

I don't know Jolly, but I do know NTRP ratings.

What? What do you mean subjective?

People with computer rated NTRPs get those ratings from match results.

Not subjective.

JRstriker12
09-30-2009, 11:24 AM
As I'm sure most of us will agree NTRP rating are HIGHLY subjective and are based on some sort of self rating, which is usually a joke or some rater's judgement of our stroke production. A couple of comments:
On the first topic- John McEnroe can self rate as a 5.0 next year. Any 5.0's here think they can beat him?
On the latter- Stroke production doesn't win tennis matches/tournaments.

I don't know Jolly, but I do know NTRP ratings.

NTRP is only based on self rating for the first year, then your rating is based on your results.

Yes, there are people who take advantage of the self-rate period, yes there are some sandbaggers, but IMHO, overall, the system works in creating competitive leagues for AVERAGE players (3.0-4.5).

I play 3.5 and I can't say that I"ve ever been in a match 3.5 league match where my opponent just didn't belong on that level. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones.

As for a 5.0 playing JMac - I'd think most people would play that guy JUST to say they played JMac - however, I can't see him signing up for your local USTA league - I'm sure he knows people who can give him a good game.

LafayetteHitter
09-30-2009, 11:29 AM
I have a friend who is a benchmark 5.0 on USTA. Every now and then I browse my friends league and tournament info just to see how they are doing. I noticed over the last two years he had losses on a few occasions to a few 4.5 guys, and also had a win over a guy who was 5.5 at the time and is now 6.0. I suppose at 4.5 and above there becomes some shady area that you really don't see with the guys that are at 3.0 level playing against a 4.0.

ohplease
09-30-2009, 12:57 PM
^^^He is still doing it now, that's the problem. Just, on various and sundry other threads.

I have to disagree that his technique is better than his results.

My .02.

Let me put it this way: there are so many annoying people on this message board nowadays that whatever Jolly is or isn't doing is way down on the list of things I'd call out.

I accept that you don't think there's any disjoint at all between his technique and his results. I submit that such players certainly exist (and I think he's one of them), as does the converse, where someone might look like crap but also be tough as nails, competitively. I've seen the latter in open tournaments, just like I see the former playing 3.0 - all the time.

Either way - it's really not that big a deal, and certainly doesn't deserve this level of nonsense. There most certainly ARE people here who do deserve this kind of treatment (and worse), but in my book, Jolly ain't one of them.

beernutz
09-30-2009, 01:22 PM
Here's the thing: we all know ratings are bunk. There's USTA league ratings and there's Craigslist ratings, and never the twain shall meet. One response to that is to say - "screw it - I'm just going to play Open."

So Jolly does that. Good for him. What he's not doing (and for which people are rightfully taking him to task) is learning to compete. There might not be much meaning behind 3.5 vs. 4.0 vs. 4.5 (more on that later), but there would be real value for Jolly in doing time in those leagues.

And that brings us to the real problem. Due to the team and incentive structure of USTA leagues (which can be reasonably characterized as the one true source of USTA ratings, yes?), the rating system is a complete mess. Forget where you think your game belongs - what really matters is the choice of winning vary rarely, sometimes, or all the time. I can drop match tough 3.5 sectional teams wholesale into 4.0 and 4.5 local leagues, and I wouldn't be the least surprised to find out they'd do well at the more advanced levels, too. That's not a guess, either - I've seen it happen repeatedly after people get bumped and reform at the higher levels - where the core of lower level teams make it to local league or even district level playoffs right after getting bumped. Maybe there's been some improvement in some aspect of their techniques - but what's really core to their success is the continued hiding of their weaknesses and application of their strengths - regardless of style, and frankly, of level, too.

Let's get this out of the way: Jolly's technique is likely better than his results. That's both a defense of the choices he's made in how he's developing his game, and the worst criticism I can possibly level at a tennis player. The whole point of tennis is to compete, and every time he - or anyone else, for that matter - chooses to dedicate time or energy to an aspect of their game that doesn't help them compete better, that's just missing the point, IMHO.

That said, there are places where missing the point is the point. Among friends, public parks, in private clubs, etc. Those places aren't tournaments or USTA leagues.

Still - all this piling on Jolly is deeply uncool. The man loves the sport, and made the mistake of cocking off on the internet 2 years ago. It's not like he's still using that tone now, so what? The only good thing about all of this is people should realize the deep differences between using the ratings to find someone worth hitting with vs. what those ratings mean in actual league play. The other good thing is what it says about competition-first vs. technique-first tennis development (answer: you need to work on both).

I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

Sup2Dresq
09-30-2009, 01:29 PM
I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

Oh my!

http://www.tvworthwatching.com/blog/enberg%20espn%20wimbledon.jpg

Fed Kennedy
09-30-2009, 01:36 PM
First Polanski, now this. Brutal week.

Cindysphinx
09-30-2009, 01:40 PM
Let me put it this way: there are so many annoying people on this message board nowadays that whatever Jolly is or isn't doing is way down on the list of things I'd call out.

There is much wisdom here.

Also, if we're going to spend our time nailing people for saying ridiculous stuff like how they could stomp Fed, Nadal, or the entire WTA, we're never going to get anything else done.

What we need is a Mea Culpa thread where everyone who has ever boasted of their own tennis skills only to be humbled and proven to be a weekend hacker can 'fess up. It would be a very long thread indeed, and I might have to shove some of you out of the confessional so I can have my turn.

AndrewD
09-30-2009, 01:47 PM
So still after all of my prattling on, the question remains, short of playing someone, or them having rankings to point to, how can you tell what level player they are once they get to 5.0ish.
J

I would think that, without any evidence of former rankings or results, no-one would entertain the idea of ranking a player at 4.5-5.0+.

I also think that your NTRP ranks players one grade, at least, too high. I think that the ITN number, which is based on results and a measurable test, is a much more efficient tool. Based purely on the test, guys like Andres Gomez only rate as an NTRP 5.0 (there's a movement component and he isn't putting up the results to overcome that) and a top 1000 ATP player only rates in the 5.5-6.0 level (movement isn't a problem but he can't put up the results to jump higher). As a result, it puts an absolute premium on the rankings - something that I don't believe the NTRP does.

Bud
09-30-2009, 05:37 PM
I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

I admit, that is pretty funny. Why does Jolly do this to himself? :oops:

smoothtennis
09-30-2009, 06:06 PM
I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

So now Jo11y is 2 points from Golden Setting a TW poster who says they are 5.0? Geez, I'm getting my wading boots on, this is a lost cause.

Buyers Beware.

TonLars
09-30-2009, 09:47 PM
Gotta admit, this is an interesting thread to see considering the truth that we now know. Drakulie, you have to understand now why I would originally have thought Jolly was a 5.0, considering what was said that I read here a long time ago but forgot about.

Having said that, again I too see Jolly to be a real nice guy on this board. He has been nice to me personally as well. It didnt really bother me at all, unlike the way it did Sup and Drak, that this "hype" was there. Figured it was just created by others and not denied. Some of this stuff isnt very good though again considering... to say the least. We all make mistakes. I think its probably good the way Jolly usually stays out of replying to this sort of thing.

But at this point, I think the best thing would be if Jolly issued an apology and clarified everything, and then we can all move on from this.

bertrevert
09-30-2009, 10:01 PM
I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find...

or this:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2642280&postcount=913

Self rating can EXTEND you FURTHER! blue pill or red...?

Anyway, I think any player needs to find their confidence somewhere and however they do it it can then add up in game play, so I'm not against it per se.

(For instance I tend to think that fiddling about with little bits of lead makes a diff to my game. I could be mistaken but I enjoy thinking it advantages me. Ok I'm mistaken.)

Reminds me of the mid-nineties internet - when grappling with truth and representation in MUDDs, Telnet conversations, java chats was challenging - and when who were talking with (or why!) was seriously challenging.

Put simply, you were only as good as your word.

Not much has changed.

Look there's a guy I've played dubs with who buys all this Fed stuff. He's not much of a player but freakishly occasionally cranks out a forehand that's a rocket. He's a gear head. Setting aside the fact that all tennis players are (cough cough), I think trading on gear=player is where it's easy to get tangled up.

Bud
10-01-2009, 12:41 AM
or this:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2642280&postcount=913

Self rating can EXTEND you FURTHER! blue pill or red...?

How is that for 5.5 pee pee waving skills?

J

:oops::oops::oops:

Topaz
10-01-2009, 03:04 AM
Gotta admit, this is an interesting thread to see considering the truth that we now know. Drakulie, you have to understand now why I would originally have thought Jolly was a 5.0, considering what was said that I read here a long time ago but forgot about.

Having said that, again I too see Jolly to be a real nice guy on this board. He has been nice to me personally as well. It didnt really bother me at all, unlike the way it did Sup and Drak, that this "hype" was there. Figured it was just created by others and not denied. Some of this stuff isnt very good though again considering... to say the least. We all make mistakes. I think its probably good the way Jolly usually stays out of replying to this sort of thing.

But at this point, I think the best thing would be if Jolly issued an apology and clarified everything, and then we can all move on from this.

Well said Tony. Yes, the context and order of the original posts in this thread should be kept in mind. Reading it now, honestly...to me...it sounds like a bunch of ego maniacs giving themselves 'internet' pats on the back.

I also think it would be best if Jolly commented and especially apologized, but unfortunately I don't see that happening. *shrug* It isn't like he couldn't just come out and say 'hey, I've learned a lot on these boards since that post, and I don't have the same opinions and views'...but he hasn't. Which would make one wonder if he does still have the same views about his play, however misleading they may be.


Anyway, I think any player needs to find their confidence somewhere and however they do it it can then add up in game play, so I'm not against it per se.


Agree...confidence can take you far in the game of tennis (not to mention life)!

But there is a difference between confidence and false bravado (if you will, not sure how to 'label' it...maybe puffery is the the best way).

And knocking others down while you're doing it is simply not cool.

Put simply, you were only as good as your word.

Not much has changed.

Look there's a guy I've played dubs with who buys all this Fed stuff. He's not much of a player but freakishly occasionally cranks out a forehand that's a rocket. He's a gear head. Setting aside the fact that all tennis players are (cough cough), I think trading on gear=player is where it's easy to get tangled up.

Or...you're only as good as your results! ;)

Yes, I do think it has been discussed a few times on the board...how you shouldn't fall into the trap of judging a player by their expensive gear/apparel (or lack there of).

rasajadad
10-01-2009, 04:48 AM
What? What do you mean subjective?

People with computer rated NTRPs get those ratings from match results.

Not subjective.

First of all, I mean raters are subjective. Second, with careful tanking a ringer could easily stay at a particular NTRP almost indefinitely.

jrod
10-01-2009, 04:49 AM
I just realized that this thread was started ~2 years ago by J011y, and recently bumped in post 53, leading to the current onslaught...

Talk about Non sequitur...

JRstriker12
10-01-2009, 05:10 AM
First of all, I mean raters are subjective. Second, with careful tanking a ringer could easily stay at a particular NTRP almost indefinitely.

Yes the inital rating (it's usually a self-rating) can be a bit off, but people quickly find out where thier relative level is through league play.

As for sandbaggers, what would be your solution? You have to base ratings on something, and that's usually results. Yes, there are some people who would care about winning enough to sandbag, but fortunately, most players don't.

drakulie
10-01-2009, 05:22 AM
Gotta admit, this is an interesting thread to see considering the truth that we now know. Drakulie, you have to understand now why I would originally have thought Jolly was a 5.0, considering what was said that I read here a long time ago but forgot about.

Having said that, again I too see Jolly to be a real nice guy on this board. He has been nice to me personally as well. It didnt really bother me at all, unlike the way it did Sup and Drak, that this "hype" was there. Figured it was just created by others and not denied. Some of this stuff isnt very good though again considering... to say the least. We all make mistakes. I think its probably good the way Jolly usually stays out of replying to this sort of thing.

But at this point, I think the best thing would be if Jolly issued an apology and clarified everything, and then we can all move on from this.

Hey, Tonlars! Hope all is well with you.

Believe me, I definitely understand now why many posters were a bit upset with him (to say the least). Never really bothered me, because I wasn't involved in threads where this whole issue (the hype) began, or has continued, such as this post quoted by, beernutz:

I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

For those who keep claiming he "doesn't add to the hype", well>>>>> they are either blind or flat out lying, as the proof is in the pudding.


Anyway, you coming to south florida anytime soon? I got a chance to meet up and hit with BounceHitBounceHit and Samster in July. Both great guys, and good players. We hit at vanderbilt for two days.

smoothtennis
10-01-2009, 06:14 AM
I just had a hideous thought. What happens when Jo11y starts winning these matches?! Will he turn into a young LeeD? :mrgreen:

rasajadad
10-01-2009, 06:39 AM
Yes the inital rating (it's usually a self-rating) can be a bit off, but people quickly find out where thier relative level is through league play.

As for sandbaggers, what would be your solution? You have to base ratings on something, and that's usually results. Yes, there are some people who would care about winning enough to sandbag, but fortunately, most players don't.

Oh I don't claim to have a solution for sandbaggers. My only point is that a lot of NTRP ratings are not accurate. My work-around is to play my age group tournaments rather than NTRP tournaments. (A lot less people sandbagging on their birth certificates.) ;-)

JRstriker12
10-01-2009, 07:33 AM
Oh I don't claim to have a solution for sandbaggers. My only point is that a lot of NTRP ratings are not accurate. My work-around is to play my age group tournaments rather than NTRP tournaments. (A lot less people sandbagging on their birth certificates.) ;-)

True - hard to sandbag on age. :)

- But you still have to deal with and even wider range in ability level. For example, you could have a 50-yr old pro (former ATP 500 ranking) play a 50-year old with a 3.0 rating.

Not knocking age level play, but if your problem with NTRP ratings is that you will occasioanlly bump into someone who isn't on your level (sandbagger), then I would think it would be even worse in the age group sections where there's no NTRP restrictions.

I do agree that NTRP ratings tend to lose meaning the higher you go on the scale, and IIRC, an article in Tennis Mag a few weeks back talked about that. Really NTRP is only meant for averge players such as myself. You get above 4.5 or so and NTRP doesn't scale.

UnforcedError
10-01-2009, 07:42 AM
Oh I don't claim to have a solution for sandbaggers. My only point is that a lot of NTRP ratings are not accurate. My work-around is to play my age group tournaments rather than NTRP tournaments. (A lot less people sandbagging on their birth certificates.) ;-)

I think you are wrong, most NTRP ratings are accurate for people that have computer ratings from league play. Most people that guess their ratings based on the guidelines overrate themselves. I've been accused of sandbagging in a 4.5 doubles tournament, the guy said we were the best 4.5s he has ever seen. The truth was he had an inflated view of his rating and didn't know what a 4.5 was. I don't play in NTRP tournaments anymore.

In a way Jolly was right, NTRP isn't meaningful above 5.0 but he was wrong when he says NTRP is bogus. If he played in leagues the last few years the computer would place in somewhere between 3.5 - 4.0 which would be accurate. My guess is he would have a fun time playing leagues but it would also mean coming to terms with reality which he might not be ready for yet.

ohplease
10-01-2009, 08:31 AM
Hey, Tonlars! Hope all is well with you.

Believe me, I definitely understand now why many posters were a bit upset with him (to say the least). Never really bothered me, because I wasn't involved in threads where this whole issue (the hype) began, or has continued, such as this post quoted by, beernutz:



For those who keep claiming he "doesn't add to the hype", well>>>>> they are either blind or flat out lying, as the proof is in the pudding.


Anyway, you coming to south florida anytime soon? I got a chance to meet up and hit with BounceHitBounceHit and Samster in July. Both great guys, and good players. We hit at vanderbilt for two days.

See here's the thing - it's not like Jolly busted in here trying to reaffirm his credentials. When I spoke of people around here who are WAY more annoying, we all can think of a few examples, and unlike Jolly, they certainly would have barged in here guns blazing.

In contrast, beernutz had to go out and SEARCH for more examples of Jolly-isms. I certainly didn't see that - and here's the critical part - because I didn't go looking for it. Let's say I did run across him (or anyone else for that matter) being annoying. The vast majority of the time I don't start multiple crucifixion threads (although I most definitely have in a few obvious and IMHO deserved cases). Instead, I go look at their posting history, and invariably my response after reading a few is "Yup, that's about what I expected. Welcome to my ignore list."

It's not that hard for people to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions. The old internet tar and feather doesn't accomplish much except for make the ring leaders of the mob look like bratty children. Yeah, he cocked off, but is that really worth the energy you're putting into the Internet Truth Commission? I doubt it.

The swingweight wars are over. The players racket wars are over. The headsize wars are over. At this point, any regular forum member should be hella aware that there's a difference between self or social rating and actual, real life, blessed by the USTA computer Pope USTA league ratings. Amen. Let's move on to something else.

Like what? How about starting with the fact that all this rating confusion is a direct result of the cluster that is the USTA self rating system vs. the actual implementation used by the computer. All the league levels are is a strict population bell curve. Doesn't matter how you got there. It's a bell curve of RESULTS, not skills. Bottom 1/5? 3.0. Average or lower? 3.5 Better than average? 4.0 Top 15%? 4.5. That's all. The fact that people are confused about that is nobody's fault except for the USTA.

Thud and blunder
10-01-2009, 08:40 AM
http://www.unc.edu/courses/jomc050/idog.jpg

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 09:02 AM
I just realized that this thread was started ~2 years ago by J011y, and recently bumped in post 53, leading to the current onslaught...

Talk about Non sequitur...

Perhaps you need some "quod erat demonstrandum"? Here is something more recent...


I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197

jrod
10-01-2009, 09:06 AM
Perhaps you need some "quod erat demonstrandum"? Here is something more recent...


now that's truly "non sequitor"...(sigh)

UnforcedError
10-01-2009, 09:15 AM
See here's the thing - it's not like Jolly busted in here trying to reaffirm his credentials. When I spoke of people around here who are WAY more annoying, we all can think of a few examples, and unlike Jolly, they certainly would have barged in here guns blazing.

In contrast, beernutz had to go out and SEARCH for more examples of Jolly-isms. I certainly didn't see that - and here's the critical part - because I didn't go looking for it. Let's say I did run across him (or anyone else for that matter) being annoying. The vast majority of the time I don't start multiple crucifixion threads (although I most definitely have in a few obvious and IMHO deserved cases). Instead, I go look at their posting history, and invariably my response after reading a few is "Yup, that's about what I expected. Welcome to my ignore list."

It's not that hard for people to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions. The old internet tar and feather doesn't accomplish much except for make the ring leaders of the mob look like bratty children. Yeah, he cocked off, but is that really worth the energy you're putting into the Internet Truth Commission? I doubt it.


The problem became much bigger than Jolly. If anyone questioned him others would chime in saying something like "oh yeah well Jolly could easily beat you". Others thought he was on the verge of turning pro. Then the Jolly team would chime in saying he never contributed to the hype: wrong. In the "JollyRig" thread Dennis even states he is extremely honest, yet in this thread Jolly says he is top 10 in his section. What is the truth? Hopefully the good thing to come out of this is the hype surrounding him stops.

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 09:16 AM
It's not that hard for people to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions. The old internet tar and feather doesn't accomplish much except for make the ring leaders of the mob look like bratty children. Yeah, he cocked off, but is that really worth the energy you're putting into the Internet Truth Commission? I doubt it.



You know, I'm a big fan of Seinfeld. So instead of my standard quotes to reply.. I'm going with a video clip from one of my true favorite episode. The "comeback" episode with milosh the tennis shop worker. If you recall Jerry bought an expensive racquet based on the advice of Milosh, who he thought was good. Only to see him at another club and realizing he was terrible.

SOUNDS VERY FAMILIAR...

Jollygate continues:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUaMzsNKR7Q

Miloš (Jerry Seinfeld)

Jerry meets George at a private tennis club to play tennis. He goes to the pro shop where he is pressured into buying a brand new racquet by the worker there — an Eastern European man named Miloš (Mark Harelik). Later, while playing at a different club with Elaine, Jerry discovers that Miloš is a horrible tennis player. In Jerry's eyes, this undermines Miloš' credibility as a salesman.

When Jerry confronts Miloš at the pro shop, he offers to do anything in exchange for Jerry not revealing his secret. Jerry implies that if Miloš sets him up with an attractive woman that they see in the shop, he will be silent. Later Jerry runs into the woman, who is named Patty (Ivana Milavich), waiting for him outside his apartment. She initially comes on strong, but recoils in shame after revealing that she is Miloš' wife and was instructed to come onto Jerry by her husband (of course she does not know Miloš' reason for setting up the date was to convince Jerry to keep his secret). The incident makes her lose respect for Miloš.

In a new deal, Miloš wants Jerry to let him win in a game of tennis to regain Patty's respect. During the game, Miloš becomes boastful and gloating. After winning another game against Jerry, he exclaims "Another game for Miloš!" Jerry begins to play harder, frustrated at Miloš' taunts. Jerry hits a ball wide of Miloš who swings wildly at it, releasing his racquet into the air, which finally comes down on another tennis player who falls on a ball machine, redirecting its aim to Kramer's head.

smoothtennis
10-01-2009, 09:50 AM
See here's the thing - it's not like Jolly busted in here trying to reaffirm his credentials.

See, that's exactly right. That is Jo11y's way. He is much smarter than that. Have you not been around to see the clever cycle? They hype starts up, where Jo11y is almost semi-pro level, then the balloon gets busted - we peeps all chime in with our surprise and dissapointment and Jo11y is never around at these times. Meanwhile his peanut gallery defends his complete and un-dying honesty. This just gets old.


The vast majority of the time I don't start multiple crucifixion threads (although I most definitely have in a few obvious and IMHO deserved cases).


Yeah - well two years worth of this smelly storyline gets very old. This is one of those special well deserved cases. Once Sup started this, I became emotional, and now feel like one of those adicts that comes to the Jollygate Recovery Group. It's hard to stop the tears once they start flowing.


The swingweight wars are over. The players racket wars are over. The headsize wars are over.


LOL - you wish. Based on human nature, those wars will always be over there in that racket section of the forum.

Sorry you had to witness all of this. But when the Poop hits the fan as they say, what do you think happens to the Poop? It flies baby, if flies EVERYWHERE getting on everybody. I have to go. Something just landed on my left cheek.

drakulie
10-01-2009, 09:52 AM
Like what? How about starting with the fact that all this rating confusion is a direct result of the cluster that is the USTA self rating system vs. the actual implementation used by the computer. All the league levels are is a strict population bell curve. Doesn't matter how you got there. It's a bell curve of RESULTS, not skills. Bottom 1/5? 3.0. Average or lower? 3.5 Better than average? 4.0 Top 15%? 4.5. That's all. The fact that people are confused about that is nobody's fault except for the USTA.


This post is nothing short of once again, side-stepping, and putting the blame on someone/something else (in this case, the USTA), and giving the poster in question a pass, resutling in the same enabling of the behavior to go on.

Even if he self rated at 6.0, I believe after an 0-16 record against players below 6.0, it would convince anyone they overshot their rating. Yet, the OP has continued to claim he is at 5.5 or above.

jrod
10-01-2009, 09:58 AM
See, the thing is a while back J011y posted some clips of him hitting. In all likelihood the clips were edited prior to posting to project what J011y considered to be a reasonably positive image.

Now I fully understand the limitations of video in terms of reflecting a players true ability. Nevertheless, videos do not project something that simply isn't. When I saw these videos I came to my own conclusion about what level of player J011y was not. Perhaps if people go back and take a look for themselves so they can make their own assessment.

drakulie
10-01-2009, 10:04 AM
^^^I honestly don't think "editing videos" is a bad or good thing. Fact is, ESPN "edits" matches, to proivde the viewer the best shots, and "highlights" throughout the course of the match.

I for one don't need to see someone missing shots, to know they in fact miss shots, because the truth of the matter is, everyone, including pros miss shots. That is not a big deal.

That said, I enjoy his vids, and enjoy watching them when he posts, because he is providing the viewer with highlights, rather than watching someone chanse balls, get ready to serve, and all the other stuff that is boring as all hell to watch.

And the bottom line is, his strokes although very powerful, are not at what I would consider even close to a 5.0 or 5.5 player.

I never understood why so many posters were in such awe of his vids, and would come to the conlusion he was a "high caliber" open player.

Jracer77
10-01-2009, 10:06 AM
See, the thing is a while back J011y posted some clips of him hitting. In all likelihood the clips were edited prior to posting to project what J011y considered to be a reasonably positive image.

Now I fully understand the limitations of video in terms of reflecting a players true ability. Nevertheless, videos do not project something that simply isn't. When I saw these videos I came to my own conclusion about what level of player J011y was not. Perhaps if people go back and take a look for themselves so they can make their own assessment.

Why would anybody need to look at highly edited video to assess somebody's level when ACTUAL RESULTS are available? Geeeeeeez

jrod
10-01-2009, 10:12 AM
Why would anybody need to look at highly edited video to assess somebody's level when ACTUAL RESULTS are available? Geeeeeeez

You're completely missing the point....The videos he has posted are ample evidence to suggest J011y is not a 4.5 level player. I suspect his record also reflects this but you can actually SEE him playing tennis in the video (highly edited or not).

UnforcedError
10-01-2009, 10:25 AM
Why would anybody need to look at highly edited video to assess somebody's level when ACTUAL RESULTS are available? Geeeeeeez

The videos came out first and are probably what started the popping of the Jolly bubble. I think he posted them thinking they rocked and others would think the same. Before I saw them I read some negative comments and I thought "hmmm some people must not like Jolly". Then I saw them and I was stunned because in no way did they line up with how good I thought he was. Even when he is hitting the cover off the ball you could tell there are problems with movement and swing and on top of that he seemed to have no idea where the ball was going. Still the hype persisted for many because after all the videos are subjective. Then his tournament results were posted and the only thing left to debate is if he is a 3.5 or 4.0 . Still Dennis defends him, I'm guessing Jolly owns him on the courts and it helps him sleep at night to imagine Jolly is great at tennis.

Jracer77
10-01-2009, 10:34 AM
You're completely missing the point....The videos he has posted are ample evidence to suggest J011y is not a 4.5 level player. I suspect his record also reflects this but you can actually SEE him playing tennis in the video (highly edited or not).

I've seen the videos. I said a couple of years ago they looked like 4.0 but I was just making an educated guess. It turns out he's around a low 4.0 probably from his results.

Fedace
10-01-2009, 10:40 AM
"Yup." I pretty much agree with all posted above. IMO, the problem is with trying to use the NTRP to "really" rate someone. If the player isn't playing tourneys to get ranked/rated, the ETRPS (www.easitennis.com/NTRPSystem.htm)system is a much better way to distinguish a player's ability/ranking.

I am a 5.0. One of my regular hits is a 5.5, and I have yet to get a single set off him. (I've pressed him to tie-breakers and 7-5 sets ... but he always seems to have a "reserve" I simply do not have....)

- KK

Yea,,,just like Roger Federer,,,,he just turns it up a notch when he needs it.

jrod
10-01-2009, 10:42 AM
I don't know if I could determine level differences between say 4.0 and 4.5 from an edited video. Kudos to you if you can.


A 4.5 level player has a number of key attributes that are easily identifiable that most (not all) lower level players do not possess. These include fluidity of footwork, movement, good balance and cleaen ball striking. The video's of J011y look nothing like any of the 4.5 level players I've ever played.

hyogen
10-01-2009, 10:48 AM
A 4.5 level player has a number of key attributes that are easily identifiable that most (not all) lower level players do not possess. These include fluidity of footwork, movement, good balance and cleaen ball striking. The video's of J011y look nothing like any of the 4.5 level players I've ever played.

how about a 5.0 player? interesting no one has voted 4.5 while several have voted 5 :o

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 10:50 AM
how about a 5.0 player? interesting no one has voted 4.5 while several have voted 5 :o

2 couldn't see the picture (aka results) from work and just voted 5.0 to be a smart poop. They said they did so on another thread.

So you can throw out a couple I bet.

P.S. I'm assuming you are talking about another thread. Confusion happens when you get old H.. or when you drive with pet rabbits on your lap.

Xisbum
10-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Even if he self rated at 6.0, I believe after an 0-16 record against players below 6.0, it would convince anyone they overshot their rating. Yet, the OP has continued to claim he is at 5.5 or above.

Just curious: and this delusion, if it is delusional, hurts the rest of us how exactly? :confused:

If we don't like reading what he posts, can't we just not read it? :?

Again, just askin'. I don't know Jolly from Adam and probably never will, but I do find his posts frequently entertaining - as I often find yours equally entertaining. Doesn't matter a bit to me what level he thinks he plays - or doesn't play. :|

ohplease
10-01-2009, 10:52 AM
This post is nothing short of once again, side-stepping, and putting the blame on someone/something else (in this case, the USTA), and giving the poster in question a pass, resutling in the same enabling of the behavior to go on.

Even if he self rated at 6.0, I believe after an 0-16 record against players below 6.0, it would convince anyone they overshot their rating. Yet, the OP has continued to claim he is at 5.5 or above.

Actually, it's anything but a pass. I've repeatedly said there are multiple people at fault here. In fact, I'll do it again right now:

1) Jolly

2) The USTA, for confusing Jolly, and people like Jolly

3) You (Drakulie) and Sup, for going on a crusade against what is fundamentally a claim about internet inches. Don't you have anything better to do?

No pass for any of you. You've all mucked it up. In fact, I'm starting to be of the mind that Jolly's crime (in fact, what crime is that exactly? Does he actually owe you material damages, or something? If so, he should definitely, DEFINITELY pay you the difference in actual monetary harm you experienced) - is less severe, or at the very least more understandable than what you guys are doing.

As I said before - what you're doing is deeply uncool, and not only is it wrong and not correcting anything, it's easily argued it's actually worse than the original inspiration. There's a difference between making a point and being a jerk. You made your point a long time ago. QED.

On balance, Jolly's self-woofing isn't nearly as damaging to this place as your inability to let stuff go and predictable over-reactions to really inconsequential nonsense. In truth, I'd rather have 1000 more delusional posts from a boatload of new posters than another 1000 of drakulie's very important business internet policing.

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 10:57 AM
Just curious: and this delusion, if it is delusional, hurts the rest of us how exactly? :confused:

If we don't like reading what he posts, can't we just not read it? :?

Again, just askin'. I don't know Jolly from Adam and probably never will, but I do find his posts frequently entertaining - as I often find yours equally entertaining. Doesn't matter a bit to me what level he thinks he plays - or doesn't play. :|

It sure does hurt to read when, insults fly on others playing ability, and/or there is misguidance of one's credentials. I can say that the best minds I've been around couldn't play tennis worth a squat, but did have a brain for it. Did they tell me they rocked in tennis .. nope. That helped. Now if they said they could beat me with a broomstick and still gave out good advice.. Um.. confusion sets and bad things happen.

Xisbum!!! Tell yourself. What would Elvis do? Besides eating a peanut butter and banana sandwich. I think he would claim there is only one King and it isn't anyone of us.

Now if Elvis said he was good enough to play in the NFL .. now I would have a problem.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee20/StoriTeler/Elvis/Elvis1956_12_27_touchball.png

Xisbum
10-01-2009, 11:23 AM
It sure does hurt to read when, insults fly on others playing ability, and/or there is misguidance of one's credentials. I can say that the best minds I've been around couldn't play tennis worth a squat, but did have a brain for it. Did they tell me they rocked in tennis .. nope. That helped. Now if they said they could beat me with a broomstick and still gave out good advice.. Um.. confusion sets and bad things happen.

Xisbum!!! Tell yourself. What would Elvis do? Besides eating a peanut butter and banana sandwich. I think he would claim there is only one King and it isn't anyone of us.

Now if Elvis said he was good enough to play in the NFL .. now I would have a problem.

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee20/StoriTeler/Elvis/Elvis1956_12_27_touchball.png

I'll answer you after I get home, order some more Lotto stuff and get in my bike exercises for the day. BTW, Elvis always thought his singing career was temporary; he really wanted to be a serious actor, ala Brando and Dean. And he never, ever called himself The King; that was us mortals who thought up that title.

See the scrawny little thing under his armpit? Guess who. :cool:

nocab
10-01-2009, 12:16 PM
Okay, my turn to chime in. I've read a lot of Jo11y's posts before and was under the impression he was a strong player but a bit conceded. He likes to boast about his 19 racquets and how they are leaded up and strung tight with poly. Tries to give you the impression that he can handle what the pros use. After reading all the posts about him actually being a 3.5ish player I decided to do some research on my own. It wasn't hard to figure out his real name using the search function and tennislink.

His results are definitely the ones posted here with a win over a 3.0 last year: 6-4, 6-1. That 3.0 wins a lot at 3.0 and some at 3.5 so you could say he is actually a weak 3.5. The rest of his 2008 matches are loses with nothing being very close. In 2009 he has played 3 USTA matches losing 0,1 to a 5.0/5.5 player 3,2 to a 5.0 player and taking a set off a 4.5. Looking at his 2009 results he could be considered a 4.0 but last years results show a average 3.5 at best.

My guess is that by playing open tournaments he can say he is an open player and will never receive a rating. If he decided to play a tourney at a NTRP level he would get rated and it might hurt the allure of Jo11y the open player.

Either way everyone should realize that most of the people on message boards would like to give you the idea that they are better then they are in real life. The problem with Jo11y is that he had a big following before anyone realized that he was misleading them and a lot of the information he presented was supposed to be validated by someone who was a strong 5.5/open level player.

Xisbum
10-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Either way everyone should realize that most of the people on message boards would like to give you the idea that they are better then they are in real life.Not me; I cheerfully admit I stink at tennis, but I do love it so. :)

The problem with Jo11y is that he had a big following before anyone realized that he was misleading them and a lot of the information he presented was supposed to be validated by someone who was a strong 5.5/open level player.
Didn't realize there were so many people left who believe everything they read. They need a healthy dose of skepticism, don't you think? ;)

Topaz
10-01-2009, 12:23 PM
Actually, it's anything but a pass. I've repeatedly said there are multiple people at fault here. In fact, I'll do it again right now:

1) Jolly

2) The USTA, for confusing Jolly, and people like Jolly

3) You (Drakulie) and Sup, for going on a crusade against what is fundamentally a claim about internet inches. Don't you have anything better to do?

.

Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with #2 and #3.

#2 - the USTA didn't do anything wrong. The rules for self-rating and league play are clearly available, as is feedback from people who are familiar with how it all works (such as many of the posters in this sub forum). The NTRP rating system is IMO pretty accurate when people are honest and play to their abilities. It takes time to 'catch up' in some instances as new ratings are only released once a year...but eventually, again if the person is being honest, they will get a true, competitive rating.

Sure, there are a few hiccups here and there, but generally speaking the system works.

What doesn't work? People who 'game' the system (sandbaggers) and dishonest self-raters. Even still, those self-raters usually get corrected over time.

I think you are blaming the USTA for Jolly's manipulation of numbers.

#3 - Nothing posted by Drak or Sup has been anything short of the truth. You may disagree that they should have posted it, but again...if someone is talking the talk and not walking the walk, they shouldn't be surprised to get called out for it. Some people are ok with looking the other way, others step up and say 'hey, something isn't right here'.

And, there are also all the condescending statements Jolly has made (both in the past and recently) toward lower level players...so, he made his bed. He has had every opportunity to save face and apologize and/or explain, and has not. *shrug*

UnforcedError
10-01-2009, 12:28 PM
3) You (Drakulie) and Sup, for going on a crusade against what is fundamentally a claim about internet inches. Don't you have anything better to do?


If this is true than add yourself to the list.

You felt obliged too respond to messages that you didn't agree with, how are you any different? If you want to stop critical posts start with your own.

Jracer77
10-01-2009, 12:32 PM
Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with #2 and #3.

#2 - the USTA didn't do anything wrong. The rules for self-rating and league play are clearly available, as is feedback from people who are familiar with how it all works (such as many of the posters in this sub forum). The NTRP rating system is IMO pretty accurate when people are honest and play to their abilities. It takes time to 'catch up' in some instances as new ratings are only released once a year...but eventually, again if the person is being honest, they will get a true, competitive rating.

Sure, there are a few hiccups here and there, but generally speaking the system works.

What doesn't work? People who 'game' the system (sandbaggers) and dishonest self-raters. Even still, those self-raters usually get corrected over time.

I think you are blaming the USTA for Jolly's manipulation of numbers.

#3 - Nothing posted by Drak or Sup has been anything short of the truth. You may disagree that they should have posted it, but again...if someone is talking the talk and not walking the walk, they shouldn't be surprised to get called out for it. Some people are ok with looking the other way, others step up and say 'hey, something isn't right here'.

And, there are also all the condescending statements Jolly has made (both in the past and recently) toward lower level players...so, he made his bed. He has had every opportunity to save face and apologize and/or explain, and has not. *shrug*

Quoted for truth

ohplease
10-01-2009, 12:34 PM
Hmm, I'm going to have to disagree with #2 and #3.

#2 - the USTA didn't do anything wrong. The rules for self-rating and league play are clearly available, as is feedback from people who are familiar with how it all works (such as many of the posters in this sub forum). The NTRP rating system is IMO pretty accurate when people are honest and play to their abilities. It takes time to 'catch up' in some instances as new ratings are only released once a year...but eventually, again if the person is being honest, they will get a true, competitive rating.

Sure, there are a few hiccups here and there, but generally speaking the system works.

What doesn't work? People who 'game' the system (sandbaggers) and dishonest self-raters. Even still, those self-raters usually get corrected over time.

I think you are blaming the USTA for Jolly's manipulation of numbers.

#3 - Nothing posted by Drak or Sup has been anything short of the truth. You may disagree that they should have posted it, but again...if someone is talking the talk and not walking the walk, they shouldn't be surprised to get called out for it. Some people are ok with looking the other way, others step up and say 'hey, something isn't right here'.

And, there are also all the condescending statements Jolly has made (both in the past and recently) toward lower level players...so, he made his bed. He has had every opportunity to save face and apologize and/or explain, and has not. *shrug*

You're free to disagree - but don't you find it strange that when people miss on self rating - they always miss high? That tells me there's a problem there. Not only that, the vague, misleading generalities that are the NTRP descriptions have absolutely no relationship to how the computer actually determines your rating.

Actually asking people if they're in the top half/bottom half (3.5/4.0) or top fifth/bottom fifth (3.0/4.5) of their club is not only much easier to understand and get right when self rating, it also just happens to be how the computer actually does its thing. What's wrong with mapping the reality with what is actually conveyed to people new to the system?

In fact, I already tell people who want to join USTA leagues to forget the descriptions. Top half or bottom half? Do you want save your real competition for the post season, or the local league? That method has never failed to get the people who've asked me what their rating is into the right place for them and their expectations.

ohplease
10-01-2009, 12:35 PM
If this is true than add yourself to the list.

You felt obliged too respond to messages that you didn't agree with, how are you any different? If you want to stop critical posts start with your own.

I agree, the act of criticism is the same, regardless of speaker, number of posts, time dedicated to the issue, etc. Therefore, I am in the exact same club as....you! Welcome aboard!

FloridaAG
10-01-2009, 12:46 PM
What a mess - I have not been following any of this and had never really paid that much attention to it -

The lesson I guess is that if anyone cares whether someone plays at the level they claim - unless they are like Tony and post their results etc., there is a reason to be skeptical unless it is also confirmed by someone you trust.

Most of us are hacks and the only difference is of degree -

AlpineCadet
10-01-2009, 12:46 PM
ohplease is policing the police, while accusing others of having nothing better to do?

(6(o.O)9) <-- the boggle monkey

ohplease
10-01-2009, 01:06 PM
ohplease is policing the police, while accusing others of having nothing better to do?

(6(o.O)9) <-- the boggle monkey

I know, it's tough to understand without pictures and/or video.

We've got self-appointed cops going off the reservation. I'm not the only one here saying they've gone too far, by the way. It's like "Internal Affairs," "Training Day," or "The Departed" - only with tennis.

AlpineCadet
10-01-2009, 01:11 PM
Maybe you'll see how pretentious/hypocritical your posts are with a few days time, maybe not. But I'm sure Jolly appreciates the thread bump each time you post a response.

Xisbum
10-01-2009, 01:20 PM
It sure does hurt to read when, insults fly on others playing ability, and/or there is misguidance of one's credentials. I can say that the best minds I've been around couldn't play tennis worth a squat, but did have a brain for it. Did they tell me they rocked in tennis .. nope. That helped. Now if they said they could beat me with a broomstick and still gave out good advice.. Um.. confusion sets and bad things happen.

Okay, this is coming from my personal philosophy and isn't meant to be definitive for any of you folks out there - so have your salt shaker handy when you read this. :)

I still fail to see the significance of someone's claim to some level of competence when all it takes is 2 hours on a court to counter - or confirm - that claim. Play the guy; then he will know and you will know what's real and what isn't. What anyone else thinks or says is immaterial. What should you care what others think of your or their abilities when you know what you can do? Anyone taking anything that is written here as the Gospel according to ****** needs a refresher course in independent thinking.

Insults? Pshaw, I says. Maybe people need to grow some more skin. This is the Internet. Anarchy reigns. You know we have an inch of top soil left?
(Sorry; couldnt' resist a little Tommy Lee reference) So what if J in NY think X in NV stinks at tennis. If that floats his boat, fine with me. At the end of the day, we all end up in pretty much the same place, anyway - food for worms, lads, food for worms.

So relax and enjoy the cruise. Let others enjoy their cruises, too. If someone's boat bumps into your boat, turn the rudder and plot a different course. You don't have to read the same chart, you know.

See ya tomorrow.

P.S. A white/liz green trim polo, black/liz green trim shorts, whilte/liz green trim shorts and white/ionic blue trim shorts. Wife is going to kill me.

P.P.S. Do you lose rookie status with 400 posts? ;-)

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 01:25 PM
I know, it's tough to understand without pictures and/or video.

We've got self-appointed cops going off the reservation. I'm not the only one here saying they've gone too far, by the way. It's like "Internal Affairs," "Training Day," or "The Departed" - only with tennis.

Didn't the cops in each one of those movies turn out to be bad guys?

Good example.. you know what that needs?

Yes yes yes..

http://www.dustytrice.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/KeyboardCat.png

Sup2Dresq
10-01-2009, 01:27 PM
P.P.S. Do you lose rookie status with 400 posts? ;-)

When you get as wise and "mature" as you buddy, there is no such thing as rookie status.

See you tomorrow morning for doubles. Our 3.5s abilities will shine like a dusty tarnished penny. Well except for you and your shiny Lotto stuff.

Topaz
10-01-2009, 01:36 PM
You're free to disagree - but don't you find it strange that when people miss on self rating - they always miss high? That tells me there's a problem there. Not only that, the vague, misleading generalities that are the NTRP descriptions have absolutely no relationship to how the computer actually determines your rating.
.

Oh, actually, I'm way on board with you there.

Jolly, though, has never actually self-rated. He won't play NTRP leagues. Why? I dunno, he's never answered that question when it has been posed to him. I have my own theories as to the answer, and for now at least, they will remain my own.

But, yes, and I think I mentioned this on one of these threads...there is a huge disparity between the guidelines and the actual competitive level contained within those guidelines. I don't think it was meant to happen...maybe they were closer 'back in the day' when people actually watched you and rated you...but actual competitive levels are off from the printed guidelines. People who don't know that will self-rate too high, and sometimes it is just an honest accident, and sometimes...it isn't.

IMO, the best thing for a person just starting out in leagues is to play other people who have *computer* ratings and see how they do. If they have a competitive match (even if it is a loss) then they have a decent idea of their rating.

When I self-rated (at 3.0) it was at the suggestion of the pro that I was working with at the time. That may or may not work...depends on how much exposure the pro has to seeing actual league matches or not. I played four matches at 3.0, lost all three, but won enough games to 'prove' I was competitive, so the next year I was a computer rated 3.0. So, again, *usually* disparities are dealt with within a year's time.

Cindysphinx
10-01-2009, 03:42 PM
He has had every opportunity to save face and apologize and/or explain, and has not. *shrug*

Let's do it this way.

To those who are in the process of opening up their Umpteenth Can Of Whup Arse . . .

What exactly is it that you want?

Jolly isn't coming in to defend himself, and not one person is defending him or claiming that he really is the things he claimed to be. If Jolly had decided to step up and own this thing, he would have done so by now. I figure it ain't gonna happen.

So what is the end game, then? At some point, it just gets needlessly cruel to a person who, despite his faults, is a person.

Me, I don't know what might be going on in someone's head or life to cause them to get themselves in this sort of hot water on the Internet. All I know is that there must be something.

I imagine none of us would want to compound anyone's personal turmoil *when there is nothing to be gained by doing so.*

gameboy
10-01-2009, 03:48 PM
Cindy is right, this is just beating the same dead horse over and over again. While entertaining, it is getting old.

If we were to shame everyone with overinflated self-rating on this board, that would be one helluva long line.

Unless someone has an actual NTRP rating, I think it would be safe to assume that that person is probably 3.0 or 3.5 level no matter how hard he/she hits or how many strings they break.

drakulie
10-01-2009, 05:02 PM
2) The USTA, for confusing Jolly, and people like Jolly

How in the world did the USTA "confuse" jolly?? Please explain??? There are hundreds of tournaments he has absolutely flat out refused to play, because he refuses to be rated. He could easily have gone to a certified coach and asked to be rated. He didn't, or at least not that we know of.

Additonally, like I said before, even if he self rates at 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0, and as a result decided to play open tournaments (which he has), at what point does he say to himself he is not at that level?? He currently has an 0-16 record against anyone above 4.5. Any sane person would not delude themsleves they are a 5.5. They would come to the conclusion they are at most, below 4.5. Yet, he continues to state he is at 5.5 and above.

How the hell is this the USTA's fault???????

Fact is, Jolly does not want to play USTA league's because he ***DOESN'T*** WANT A RATING.

3) You (Drakulie) and Sup, for going on a crusade

Oh, I see,,,,,, now it's my fault Jolly is delusional about his level of play, because I am on a crusade, even though this hype began way before I got involved in the picture. :roll:

I see you are one of those apologists, who doesn't like to hold anyone accountable for their own actions, rather looks at society for all the wrong in the world. Let's blame the Bush administration for Jolly not knowing what level he is.


You made your point a long time ago.

so did you. Here is the exit:


http://www.ci.san-marcos.tx.us/Departments/Fire/Images/ExitDoor004.jpg

jrod
10-01-2009, 06:08 PM
I know, it's tough to understand without pictures and/or video....


Hello? J011y posted video folks. Enough to allow every single person posting here to form an opinion.

I agree with Cindy....lets cut to the chase. Lets find the end game. Go watch the damn videos and decide for yourselves.

Even still, the last thing I would anticipate coming out of such an exercise is agreement on his level. See, the thing is, tennis players as a whole are pretty poor judges of skill level, whether it be another player or ourselves. The one certainty is there will never be a shortage of opinions. So, as long as TW provides us with the means to communicate such, we'll all just have to endure.

Bud
10-01-2009, 06:42 PM
Let's do it this way.

To those who are in the process of opening up their Umpteenth Can Of Whup Arse . . .

:lol::lol::lol:

AlpineCadet
10-01-2009, 10:51 PM
:lol::lol::lol:
Those are such wise words, I can't believe you're GOAT on TW.

ohplease
10-02-2009, 12:36 AM
How in the world did the USTA "confuse" jolly?? Please explain??? There are hundreds of tournaments he has absolutely flat out refused to play, because he refuses to be rated. He could easily have gone to a certified coach and asked to be rated. He didn't, or at least not that we know of.

Additonally, like I said before, even if he self rates at 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0, and as a result decided to play open tournaments (which he has), at what point does he say to himself he is not at that level?? He currently has an 0-16 record against anyone above 4.5. Any sane person would not delude themsleves they are a 5.5. They would come to the conclusion they are at most, below 4.5. Yet, he continues to state he is at 5.5 and above.

How the hell is this the USTA's fault???????

Fact is, Jolly does not want to play USTA league's because he ***DOESN'T*** WANT A RATING.



Oh, I see,,,,,, now it's my fault Jolly is delusional about his level of play, because I am on a crusade, even though this hype began way before I got involved in the picture. :roll:

I see you are one of those apologists, who doesn't like to hold anyone accountable for their own actions, rather looks at society for all the wrong in the world. Let's blame the Bush administration for Jolly not knowing what level he is.




so did you. Here is the exit:


http://www.ci.san-marcos.tx.us/Departments/Fire/Images/ExitDoor004.jpg

I love it! It's like all the drakulie greatest hits all in one post. I especially like the deliberate misrepresentation. Either you can't read, or you're making stuff up (hint: the latter is a drakulie favorite. In fact, he's does it to Topaz here, and she calls him on it: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3972574&postcount=112).

If I didn't hold anyone accountable for their actions, I'd blame drakulie's lack of class and his substantial hand in making this board so lousy lately on something like his mama just not raising him right. Or a lack of education. Or an inability to hear what's actually being said vs. what he really wants to argue with.

Even if all those things were true, the reality of his behavior is solely his responsibility, and his alone.

And I say again: given the choice between Jolly at his worst and Drakulie's usual pernicious and ubiquitous vibe, the hard truth is Jolly does more to make this board a better place - a lot more.

Lastly, and I mean this sincerely, instead of your usual mocking, sarcastic, He definitely wouldn't appreciate being invoked in that way tone you've been using lately - God bless you. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this place, but from here it looks like you need as much help as you can get, supernatural or otherwise.

Bud
10-02-2009, 12:39 AM
Those are such wise words, I can't believe you're GOAT on TW.

:lol::lol::lol:

Hang on... let me get you a tissue :oops:

(BTW, those were Cindy's words and I can't take credit for them)

ohplease
10-02-2009, 12:43 AM
Let's do it this way.

To those who are in the process of opening up their Umpteenth Can Of Whup Arse . . .

What exactly is it that you want?

Jolly isn't coming in to defend himself, and not one person is defending him or claiming that he really is the things he claimed to be. If Jolly had decided to step up and own this thing, he would have done so by now. I figure it ain't gonna happen.

So what is the end game, then? At some point, it just gets needlessly cruel to a person who, despite his faults, is a person.

Me, I don't know what might be going on in someone's head or life to cause them to get themselves in this sort of hot water on the Internet. All I know is that there must be something.

I imagine none of us would want to compound anyone's personal turmoil *when there is nothing to be gained by doing so.*

Best post in the thread. At this point, we could drag a burning effigy through the streets and there'd still be no justice, no peace for this mob.

35ft6
10-02-2009, 12:43 AM
I've hit with guys who misrepresent themselves on these boards. One guy in particular was just nuts. The others, not as bad.

Who cares? Jolly is one of the coolest guys at TT. His strokes look good. He looks like he's 4.5 at least, but obviously, results speak for themselves. Watching his videos and looking over his results, I feel like the only way to reconcile the two is by assuming he goes for way too many winners. His feet look a bit sluggish, too, but he probably makes too many unforced errors and then shrugs off his losses by saying "I usually never miss those shots." But that can remedied. It's just changing your mindset.

Guess what I'm saying is that he can probably become a legitimate 4.5 very quickly. The technique is there. If I lived in Long Island, I could track a few of his matches, reprogram his brain, and he would be a 4.5 in no time. :)

We still love you, man!

Topaz
10-02-2009, 03:02 AM
Let's do it this way.


What exactly is it that you want?

Jolly isn't coming in to defend himself, and not one person is defending him or claiming that he really is the things he claimed to be. If Jolly had decided to step up and own this thing, he would have done so by now. I figure it ain't gonna happen.

So what is the end game, then? At some point, it just gets needlessly cruel to a person who, despite his faults, is a person.

Me, I don't know what might be going on in someone's head or life to cause them to get themselves in this sort of hot water on the Internet. All I know is that there must be something.

I imagine none of us would want to compound anyone's personal turmoil *when there is nothing to be gained by doing so.*

Well, first of all, I've met him. In person. So, that puts a decidedly different spin on things for me (and the others who have met him in person)...a bit more personal I guess? So, I guess I expected him to respond and save face (not just his own, but his relationships he has made with others on this board).

And yes, he does (or did) have his 'crew' defending him (Dennis, Adilidisperanza). Dennis in particular has been pretty rude about it, too, yet nobody seems to have problems with his behavior.

I appreciate what you're saying Cindy, but again, if someone is going to bust on 3.5s and it turns out that he is possibly a 3.5 (I give him 4.0) himself, I'm going to call him out on it.

You and I have both done the same to other posters in the past (called them out), especially to the more male-ego-centric posters. How is this any different?

Edited to add: And really, when was the last time I even posted to/about him? My last posts seem to be explaining various things to posters in response. I thought that was called discussion. Like it or not, Jolly's 'case' has raised some interesting things to talk about (NTRP, ratings, open tournaments, etc). People are accusing some of us of 'hate' posts...and that's not really what is going on here.

Edited again to add: And one more reason I get my knickers in a twist here...when Jolly himself has communicated to me personally that he doesn't disrespect 3.5 players and then I see some of the garbage he has posted. Of course I'm going to comment, that's just how I am!

Topaz
10-02-2009, 03:07 AM
I love it! It's like all the drakulie greatest hits all in one post. I especially like the deliberate misrepresentation. Either you can't read, or you're making stuff up (hint: the latter is a drakulie favorite. In fact, he's does it to Topaz here, and she calls him on it: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3972574&postcount=112).

.

Heh heh, well, if you've read our posts long enough, you'd realize Drak and I get into it on a pretty regular basis! We always 'kiss and make up', though, because we are able to keep some perspective on what goes on here.

His tag line (which I myself have used) comes from a long history with another poster (not Jolly).

Topaz
10-02-2009, 03:12 AM
Guess what I'm saying is that he can probably become a legitimate 4.5 very quickly. The technique is there. If I lived in Long Island, I could track a few of his matches, reprogram his brain, and he would be a 4.5 in no time. :)

We still love you, man!

I think he could, too, but I disagree with the path he's taking to get there (playing too far out of his level to really learn a lot from the matches). I've said it before, I'll say it again, I think he'd be well served to play some 4.0 leagues, get a ton of match experience, and really *use* that to help improve his game and move up.

raiden031
10-02-2009, 04:17 AM
What is jolly going to say if he responds to this thread? So what he was wrong about his own ability. I'm sure he's learned a thing or two in the past 2 years since starting this thread.

Also I didn't realize that 3.5 was a good player. I mean he was just pointing out the truth. 3.5 is not a good player. I can say that at the same time as saying that I am pretty much a 3.5 player myself. Yeah I got moved up to 4.0 and went 1-8 in 4.0 and 0-3 in 7.5. If I was hooked up to a polygraph and asked if I truly believed I was a legit 4.0, I would fail the question. So I'm saying that 3.5s suck, and 4.0s who can bagel me also suck. 4.5 is where the distinction between suck and good starts happening. Not all 4.5s are good, but only the top ones from what I've seen of them.

Anyone who gets offended by that shouldn't be offended. The reality is that its hard to become a good player. Most good players played as children and/or had college experience. They had the luxury of playing 4 hours a day, 6 days a week for a couple years as teens that us adults didn't have. We can play leagues for 5+ years and never be truly good because we don't put the time on the court getting the necessary repetitions.

Cindysphinx
10-02-2009, 04:47 AM
Topaz, I didn't mean to aim my remarks at you personally.

I was sincere in my main question to those who are just piling on at this point: What do they want at this point?

As for the dissing of 3.5 players . . . well, I'm a 3.5 player. I used to care when someone said 3.5 players suck. I used to take it personally.

Now, I don't care nearly as much. That's because I had an epiphany and realized that any player like me who cannot hit a reasonable number of good FHs against someone of her level pretty much sucks. I'm working to suck less, but I feel confident that I will only manage to shave off a small amount of suckiness. I'm OK with that.

Now, I do feel obligated to correct the record when people generalize ("No 3.5 woman can hit a BH overhead"). And as you know I find it quite grotesque that there is so much bashing of female pros because they play tennis like females rather than males. That I won't stand for.

As for whether anyone around here has exaggerated or continues to exaggerate their own skills while denigrating the skills of others . . . eh. Xisbum said it better than I ever could.

Topaz
10-02-2009, 05:01 AM
No worries Cindy...I was just responding from my own personal point of view.

What if the person dissing 3.5 players, however, ended up being someone who *barely* can make justification for a 4.0 rating through their results? That's part of it, too.

Yeah, for me, it feels very much the same as the female pro bashing and the generalizing...again, because I don't think, given his results, that Jolly has any right to disrespect even 3.0s (since one took him to a 6-4 set). And, for me, I've seen some of the stuff before, and it was this particular thread and some of the stuff in it (see my signature) that kind of pushed me over the edge. You know how *passionate* I can be! :)

Raiden, particularly in the context of this thread here (as opposed to other threads where this has come up)...given the time span, Jolly easily could have said 'wow, that was a long time ago, I've learned a lot since then'. I'm pretty sure it would have been received well.

Okie dokie, time to get to work!!!

drakulie
10-02-2009, 05:26 AM
I love it! It's like all the drakulie greatest hits all in one post. I especially like the deliberate misrepresentation. Either you can't read, or you're making stuff up (hint: the latter is a drakulie favorite. In fact, he's does it to Topaz here, and she calls him on it: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3972574&postcount=112).

If I didn't hold anyone accountable for their actions, I'd blame drakulie's lack of class and his substantial hand in making this board so lousy lately on something like his mama just not raising him right. Or a lack of education. Or an inability to hear what's actually being said vs. what he really wants to argue with.

Even if all those things were true, the reality of his behavior is solely his responsibility, and his alone.

And I say again: given the choice between Jolly at his worst and Drakulie's usual pernicious and ubiquitous vibe, the hard truth is Jolly does more to make this board a better place - a lot more.

Lastly, and I mean this sincerely, instead of your usual mocking, sarcastic, He definitely wouldn't appreciate being invoked in that way tone you've been using lately - God bless you. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in this place, but from here it looks like you need as much help as you can get, supernatural or otherwise.


After reading the 9 posts you have in this thread (same amount as me), preaching to everyone how they should stop posting and let this thread die (you should start practicing what you preach), I now see that what you are really trying to say is you still believe Jo11y is a 5.5 player.

There is a thread in the tennis tips and instructions (same one you quoted), where you could go cast your vote.



What is jolly going to say if he responds to this thread? So what he was wrong about his own ability. I'm sure he's learned a thing or two in the past 2 years since starting this thread.


You think???

I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197


or this:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2642280&postcount=913

raiden031
10-02-2009, 05:36 AM
What if the person dissing 3.5 players, however, ended up being someone who *barely* can make justification for a 4.0 rating through their results? That's part of it, too.


I don't think there's anything wrong to diss 3.5 players (as in saying that a 3.5 player sucks) as long as the person doing it admits that it all applies to themselves as well. I think its pathetic that I can lose a match to a 60 year old who can't even hit an ace or forehand winner against me. That just shows that I must suck at tennis!


Raiden, particularly in the context of this thread here (as opposed to other threads where this has come up)...given the time span, Jolly easily could have said 'wow, that was a long time ago, I've learned a lot since then'. I'm pretty sure it would have been received well.

Okie dokie, time to get to work!!!

Well this thread was just revived out of nowhere. I mean suddenly he's being attacked so he was probably in awe by all the abuse from the moment he noticed this thread.

Cindysphinx
10-02-2009, 05:40 AM
What if the person dissing 3.5 players, however, ended up being someone who *barely* can make justification for a 4.0 rating through their results? That's part of it, too.


On some level, I understand your ire. Here's someone who is a 3.5 bashing other 3.5s.

Trouble is, that is a significant part of what happens on this board. If you go to Pro Results and General Pro Discussion, you will see us (amateur players who are so bad we could never win a match were it not for NTRP) criticizing, dissing, calling out, and otherwise belittling the play of pro players whom we could never hope to beat.

Does Del Potro care if Cindysphinx once said he was too slow and would never win a major? I'm thinking not.

So why should I care if Jolly says I stink and my little 2.5 singles trophy is a paperweight?

Besides, it *is* a paperweight, and a nice one at that. :)

tfm1973
10-02-2009, 05:42 AM
*yawn*

i'm bored with this thread. who's the idiot who dredged this stuff up anyway?

let's get back to talking bout TENNIS.

Rabbit
10-02-2009, 05:47 AM
Topaz, I didn't mean to aim my remarks at you personally.

I was sincere in my main question to those who are just piling on at this point: What do they want at this point?

As for the dissing of 3.5 players . . . well, I'm a 3.5 player. I used to care when someone said 3.5 players suck. I used to take it personally.

You know, I prefer to look at it in a slightly bigger picture... I'm a 4.5, I've been a 4.5 since Moses was a kid, and I've been bumped to 5.0 twice during the last twenty years. Now I'm a senior (+1 year). As far as I can see, there isn't any NTRP rating getting a $ out of this, so I decided I had better start having fun playing about ten years ago. And now, I do. That doesn't mean I'm not competitive, and it doesn't mean I don't get intense, but by and large when I play I have fun.

Last weekend was a perfect example. I played in a mixed doubles tournament for a charity. My partners were 3.0 women. The women we played against were 3.0 - 4.5. I pretty much just fed the ball right to the woman until she missed, or hit one past us. Winning/losing isn't nearly as important as playing well and having fun.

Bigger picture = 5.5, 5.0, 4.5 all suck in terms of tennis ability if you're a professional player. I don't get these people who get all roostered up about being a 4.5 or better. It doesn't mean a thing. I had a 4.0 who won state crowing to me about how good he was. We played singles and I beat the crap out of him. I was laughing and having fun, he broke two racquets.


Now, I don't care nearly as much. That's because I had an epiphany and realized that any player like me who cannot hit a reasonable number of good FHs against someone of her level pretty much sucks. I'm working to suck less, but I feel confident that I will only manage to shave off a small amount of suckiness. I'm OK with that.

Remember, this is your hobby, not your vocation. Have fun with it. Have fun with your lessons. The easiest way to get better is to relax.


Now, I do feel obligated to correct the record when people generalize ("No 3.5 woman can hit a BH overhead"). And as you know I find it quite grotesque that there is so much bashing of female pros because they play tennis like females rather than males. That I won't stand for.

Fact is, most of the guys doing the WTA bashing, would get laughed off the court by any WTA tour pro.


As for whether anyone around here has exaggerated or continues to exaggerate their own skills while denigrating the skills of others . . . eh. Xisbum said it better than I ever could.

Usually those folks are the ones who define "suck". :)

Topaz
10-02-2009, 07:27 AM
Well this thread was just revived out of nowhere. I mean suddenly he's being attacked so he was probably in awe by all the abuse from the moment he noticed this thread.

Actually, it was revived in response to a much more current thread.

I can see where, if you just came into this thread, it may look quite bizarre. It started in the string forum actually. Then to tennis tips. Then here...equal opportunity!!!

Topaz
10-02-2009, 07:30 AM
On some level, I understand your ire. Here's someone who is a 3.5 bashing other 3.5s.

EXACTLY!

And you know me...I tend to speak up when my ire is irked! ;)

Trouble is, that is a significant part of what happens on this board. If you go to Pro Results and General Pro Discussion, you will see us (amateur players who are so bad we could never win a match were it not for NTRP) criticizing, dissing, calling out, and otherwise belittling the play of pro players whom we could never hope to beat.

Well, and I don't get that either...but this was more personal I guess.

Does Del Potro care if Cindysphinx once said he was too slow and would never win a major? I'm thinking not.

So why should I care if Jolly says I stink and my little 2.5 singles trophy is a paperweight?

Besides, it *is* a paperweight, and a nice one at that. :)

I have some nice paperweights too!


Fact is, most of the guys doing the WTA bashing, would get laughed off the court by any WTA tour pro.



True, true words.

In fact, Jolly was actually guilty of this, too, in Miami a few years ago. He didn't think there was any merit to watching Jelena Jankovic play...I think he muttered something like 'I'm sure as ***** not going to watch women's tennis'.

Oh, the irony!

sureshs
10-02-2009, 07:33 AM
Yea,,,just like Roger Federer,,,,he just turns it up a notch when he needs it.

Not against Nadal or Del Potro

sureshs
10-02-2009, 07:35 AM
I used to think Jolly was a pro

tennisdad65
10-02-2009, 08:27 AM
No big deal. This thread was started 2 yrs back. The guy probably did not know NTRP then and overrated himself 2 yrs back.

I played tennis in the early 90s. I thought I was 'advanced' level then, and thought I was close to college level (wishfull thinking) when I stopped playing.

I got back to tennis in 2007 and self rated myself 5.0 :). I started playing 3.5-5.0 level players, and it took me one year to figure out my real NTRP in socal. :)

Sup2Dresq
10-02-2009, 08:36 AM
No big deal. This thread was started 2 yrs back. The guy probably did not know NTRP then and overrated himself 2 yrs back.

I played tennis in the early 90s. I thought I was 'advanced' level then, and thought I was close to college level (wishfull thinking) when I stopped playing.

I got back to tennis in 2007 and self rated myself 5.0 :). I started playing 3.5-5.0 level players, and it took me one year to figure out my real NTRP in socal. :)

Hey tennisdad65,

FYI- the talk started in a very recent thread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=286103 and then moved to this thread. There are more quotes from threads from just weeks ago similar to this. This thread was brought up to show where it all may have started.

drakulie
10-02-2009, 09:44 AM
No big deal. This thread was started 2 yrs back. The guy probably did not know NTRP then and overrated himself 2 yrs back.


and yet, he continues to over rate himslef:

I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197


or this:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=2642280&postcount=913

Sublime
10-02-2009, 10:56 AM
I think he muttered something like 'I'm sure as ***** not going to watch women's tennis'.

Oh, the irony!

Wait... so you're saying on top of everything else, Jo11y even lied about being a dude?!? Wow the revelations just keep coming. I guess he tried to come clean here (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3504878&postcount=761).

Ventolin
10-02-2009, 02:07 PM
I think those of you wondering when Jolly will weigh in are forgetting something. He was only looking for players of a high level to respond... so if you're not 5.5 or have extensive high level experience like him then he just wont respond to anything you guys say in this thread.


:-)

Topaz
10-02-2009, 03:44 PM
I think those of you wondering when Jolly will weigh in are forgetting something. He was only looking for players of a high level to respond... so if you're not 5.5 or have extensive high level experience like him then he just wont respond to anything you guys say in this thread.


:-)

I know, I know...but for me, BHBH states earlier in this thread that if you've had a sectional ranking that you're at *least* a 6.0!

I had a sectional ranking last year in women's open singles...so I must have been a 6.0!!!

That's my loophole and I'm sticking to it! :)

raiden031
10-02-2009, 05:06 PM
Actually, it was revived in response to a much more current thread.

I can see where, if you just came into this thread, it may look quite bizarre. It started in the string forum actually. Then to tennis tips. Then here...equal opportunity!!!

Ok just saw link to the "jolly rig" thread. Now I get whats going on. I was clueless and just saw a thread revived and people bashing him as if its a new thread.

DoubleWindsor
10-02-2009, 05:41 PM
everyone keeps saying stuff like he can't defend himself, hes scared, its soo sad blah blah blah

he did this to himself. I dont post much but when I joined a little over a year ago and read these boards, from what HE POSTED, i thought he was at least this amazing 5.0+ player who uses 70+ pound alu rough and has 19 racquets(another subject all together, and no matter what anyone says, its DUMB to have that many racquets at his level).

but then you find out he's not anywhere near that good and he just likes making himself feel better online than he is on the court.

so he derserves this, hes just a fraud, a nice fraud, but a fraud nonetheless.

JW10S
10-02-2009, 07:16 PM
^^^Yes, he did this to himself but I think 'fraud' may be a strong word. I'm less sure he purposefully tried to deceive everyone than I think he started to believe his own hype--or wanted very badly to believe it. To me it was obvious from the videos he posted that he was not a 5.0 player. But when he looked at his highly edited vids he saw only what he wanted to see and for whatever reason felt compelled to have others believe it as well. Someone posted earlier that J011y has purposefully avoided getting an official NTRP rating--I think that is dead on. That would burst the bubble. So instead of him being an arrogant, boastful, poseur I think it is more likely he is an insecure, fragile egoed, wannabe.

Everyday on these boards people ask questions about racquets, strings, set-ups, etc., thinking they are getting advice from 'experts'. Those 'experts' are not only likely to be not as good as they profess, not as good as you think, but not even as good as you. Therefore any advice should be taken with the appropriate grain of salt. This an other threads prove that.

drakulie
10-05-2009, 05:21 AM
^^Great post.

As for the "advice" part, I whole heartedly agree, which is why I always say>>> demo for your self. That said, it is nice to receive feedback/suggestions from players at your own level. For instance, a 4.0 getting advice or recomendations from another 4.0, as they could both relate.

Tennisman912
10-05-2009, 06:44 PM
First,

I don’t know or have ever met Jolly so I am not here to defend him. But I think the point he was trying to make in referring to a 3.5 trophy as a paperweight is that if you were ever a 5.0 + player, then winning some hardware at a level vastly below your true level would not (or should not) be something that you would hold dear to your heart. At least that is the way I took his comments. However, if you are a 3.5 player and won 3.5 hardware, then you should be proud of that achievement. But I just can’t understand the appeal to someone who once was a very strong player who would be content to play well below their own level in competition or league play (as the former WTA player mentioned earlier in this thread).

And yes, most tennis players suck in the grand scheme of things, even me. I would agree with what Raiden031 said earlier. We all learned at some point and all have been at many levels over our career. But it is a problem to belittle those not as advanced as you and portray yourself to be a much higher-level player than you really are. And yes, in case you forgot, I suck. But you can learn a lot about tennis players and their real level by their comments if you pay close attention.

If you want a reminder of how many people are delusional in life, (forget tennis) watch most people drive. Yes, he messed up in pretending to be much better than he was and giving advice based on that assumption. When getting or seeking advice, knowing the source of the advice (their level, experience, etc.) either adds to or lowers their credibility based on what you are looking for. That is the real harm from this. People are optimists but to say he didn’t purposely try to mislead is, IMHO, wrong. He did. You would think most people would come to their senses after results in the real world of open tourneys or wherever he plays. But in tennis, like in life, most are detached from the reality of most situations. But as they say, common sense is not that common anymore. Just another example of being careful where you get your advice.

Moving on, I want to concentrate on becoming less sucky (a technical term). Good tennis to all.

TM

drakulie
10-06-2009, 05:21 AM
I don’t know or have ever met Jolly so I am not here to defend him. But I think the point he was trying to make in referring to a 3.5 trophy as a paperweight is that if you were ever a 5.0 + player, then winning some hardware at a level vastly below your true level would not (or should not) be something that you would hold dear to your heart. At least that is the way I took his comments.



I tell all of my students to picture tennis like chess. When you are a 2.5 you only know how to use your pawns, then when you get to 3.0 you can use your rooks too, then 3.5 you get to use the bishop, and 4.0 the knights, then 4.5 the queen, and when you get to 5.0 you can use all of the pieces. When you get to 5.0 you know how to play tennis, and it is your skill and ability that determine where you go from there, and the only thing that can quantify that is past or current rankings.

In my opinion it takes a big pair to call yourself a 5.5 with out creds. And by creds I mean ATP points, national ranking in open or 35s, or D1 college.

People (club players) say I am like a 6.0 when I tell them I play tournaments and such, and I reply, "Eh, not really...that NTRP stuff kind of goes out the window once you get to 5.0, or if not out the window then real hazy."



Hey, I am a top 10 in my section, national tournament caliber open player, and I regularly get asked to play in 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, and open leagues. the captain of a 3.5 team told me he made it to sectionals last year, and if I played that they would def make it to nationals. I was like, dude, I would be embarassed to say I owned a 3.5 trophy, and a 4.5 trophy would be a paperweight to me. Let someone who worked hard to get to that level have the trophy.




Not sure how anyone could mistake his comments for other than what he said, which is why posters are offended, when he is clearly not even at the level he claims, much less at the level he is offending.

Topaz
10-06-2009, 08:28 AM
Not sure how anyone could mistake his comments for other than what he said, which is why posters are offended, when he is clearly not even at the level he claims, much less at the level he is offending.

Ha, very well put...'not even at the level he is offending'!

goober
10-06-2009, 08:53 AM
Yah the guy was living in fantasyland. But there have been others on this forum who are guilty of the same or similar things. The only difference I think that J011y actually has the resources, the commitment and physical abilities to be 5.0+ in the future. He was just getting ahead of himself. I think he needs to put his ego in check and join a 4.5 USTA league and not leave there until he is dominating and the computer bumps him up to 5.0.

drakulie
10-06-2009, 09:18 AM
^^agreed, but I think 4.0 even 3.5 would be a more realistic start.

jrod
10-06-2009, 09:27 AM
^^agreed, but I think 4.0 even 3.5 would be a more realistic start.

Agree 100%. Based on what I've seen in his videos, he would find a comfortable spot on the 3.5 team around here. He might just make the 4.0 team, but it would depend upon his singles and doubles skills and his competitive record (which isn't all that compelling apparently). There is no way in hell he'd even get a whiff of the 4.5 team in my neck of the woods...

UnforcedError
10-06-2009, 09:42 AM
Yah the guy was living in fantasyland. But there have been others on this forum who are guilty of the same or similar things. The only difference I think that J011y actually has the resources, the commitment and physical abilities to be 5.0+ in the future. He was just getting ahead of himself. I think he needs to put his ego in check and join a 4.5 USTA league and not leave there until he is dominating and the computer bumps him up to 5.0.

Given his age and how hard he seems to work at it his current level really isn't very good. He certainly has the potential to reach 5.0 but his current trajectory isn't going to take him there. This is pure speculation on my part but the first thing he needs to do to reach the next level is to realize where he is at right now which is at tops a 4.0. I had an exchange with him a few months ago where he was replying to another poster and said something like he is "working on his forehand and it is pretty impressive right now so soon it will be awesome" or something like that. If he looks at videos of his forehand and thinks wow that is impressive, is he going to be able to improve it much? I think to make large jumps you have to realize there are problems and you have to want to change them, just my opinion.

JoelDali
10-06-2009, 09:48 AM
The Long Island mens team just won USTA 2009 4.0 Nationals...I wonder if he was on this team.

Congrats to the Eastern Division.

drakulie
10-06-2009, 10:09 AM
The Long Island mens team just won USTA 2009 4.0 Nationals...I wonder if he was on this team.

Congrats to the Eastern Division.


yeah, I heard!! Congrats to long Island. !! I hit and string for three of the guys on the Florida Team, which made the semis, and knocked out #1 ranked California. Two of the guys I hit with/string for were bumped to 4.5, so they will be a few players short next season. Perhaps I'll join the team since I was asked before this season, but declined due to work.

Sup2Dresq
10-06-2009, 10:55 AM
The Long Island mens team just won USTA 2009 4.0 Nationals...I wonder if he was on this team.

Congrats to the Eastern Division.

He is not on the roster, and most of the conversations about Jolly is that he is NOT playing on any USTA team (given why he has no official rating).

Andres
10-06-2009, 11:03 AM
I don't disagree with your premise but OTOH it took me about 1 minute to find this: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=3980438&postcount=197
God... YHGTBKM!!!!!!!!

Tennisman912
10-06-2009, 12:21 PM
Drak,

I was referring to the trophy as a paperweight comments only. As far as the rest of his comments, I agree with you and the others, he knew what he was doing and agree that portraying yourself as very strong and putting down everyone below your level, when your real level is down where you are putting people down, is offensive. Then giving advice based on your supposed skill level is also offensive. But in the end, people are only fooling themselves as evidenced by this and all the other threads about this. The truth comes out eventually. Another example of how you should take every thing from unknown sources with a grain of salt.

Good tennis

TM

JHBKLYN
10-06-2009, 10:09 PM
The Long Island mens team just won USTA 2009 4.0 Nationals...I wonder if he was on this team.

Congrats to the Eastern Division.

Forget all the other videos of what a 4.0 is suppose to look like, this is a video of what a 4.0 doubles champ looks like .... unfortunately, it was shot about a mile away and for 2 points, but the last point is the reason why some of us play USTA tennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFyuh8Dk2N

AlpineCadet
10-06-2009, 10:32 PM
But he has 19 k90 frames with a SW of over +400!!!

JHBKLYN
10-06-2009, 11:17 PM
But he has 19 k90 frames with a SW of over +400!!!

Perhaps it was only 3 frames and some photoshop-ping?

beernutz
10-07-2009, 06:08 AM
Agree 100%. Based on what I've seen in his videos, he would find a comfortable spot on the 3.5 team around here. He might just make the 4.0 team, but it would depend upon his singles and doubles skills and his competitive record (which isn't all that compelling apparently). There is no way in hell he'd even get a whiff of the 4.5 team in my neck of the woods...

Really? In the video I saw of him he looked a lot better than any 3.5 I've ever hit with--even the 4.0 sandbaggers. I think he'd be more comfortable at 4.0 but I don't believe he'd dominate like he probably thinks he would.

jrod
10-07-2009, 06:31 AM
Really? In the video I saw of him he looked a lot better than any 3.5 I've ever hit with--even the 4.0 sandbaggers. I think he'd be more comfortable at 4.0 but I don't believe he'd dominate like he probably thinks he would.

Yes, really. There is nothing J011y is doing in the vids that I haven't seen at least half the local 3.5 team do equally well. In fact, some local 3.5's have much better strokes than him. He may be more competitive, but this is not apparent from his record as he plays up too much for his skill level. He might be able make a local 4.0 team, but he would be at the bottom and might not get much match play in. He'd be more of a factor at the 3.5 level.

JoelDali
10-07-2009, 09:49 AM
Forget all the other videos of what a 4.0 is suppose to look like, this is a video of what a 4.0 doubles champ looks like .... unfortunately, it was shot about a mile away and for 2 points, but the last point is the reason why some of us play USTA tennis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFyuh8Dk2N

The URL contained a malformed video ID.

AlpineCadet
10-07-2009, 09:39 PM
Jolly is obviously ignoring this thread. :( What a poser.

nfor304
10-07-2009, 09:57 PM
Maybe he has been been driven away from tennis forever because of the embarrassment of being called out on these threads?

dennis10is
10-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Maybe he has been been driven away from tennis forever because of the embarrassment of being called out on these threads?

He's waiting for Supe to play him. And for the record, Jolly is 3.0 but we still are waiting to Supe to back up his claim that he can easily beat Jolly.

Point here is we if criticze Jolly for "not backing up his claims", we should wait for Supe to play and beat him as expected. Point here is that results counts both ways.

Supe, I'm waiting for you to beat Jolly. I bet 20 bucks on you and I need the money.

drakulie
10-08-2009, 07:03 PM
And for the record, Jolly is 3.0

well, perhaps, but one thing is for certain>>> he isn't a 4.5, 5.0, 5.5, or 6.0 player.

but we still are waiting to Supe to back up his claim that he can easily beat Jolly.

I don't ever recally sup making such a claim, and even if he did, what does his claim have to do with another poster degrading what he feels is a lower level of play??


Point here is we if criticze Jolly for "not backing up his claims",

Jo11y is being criticized by many posters for degrading players he feels are below his level. To add, the fact he hasn't even accomplished the same level of play they have.

It really is that simple, and you seem smart enough to distinguish the difference.

dannyjjang
10-08-2009, 10:26 PM
He's waiting for Supe to play him. And for the record, Jolly is 3.0 but we still are waiting to Supe to back up his claim that he can easily beat Jolly.

Point here is we if criticze Jolly for "not backing up his claims", we should wait for Supe to play and beat him as expected. Point here is that results counts both ways.

Supe, I'm waiting for you to beat Jolly. I bet 20 bucks on you and I need the money.

this is so cool is this really going down????
pay per view must see!!

Topaz
10-09-2009, 02:30 AM
this is so cool is this really going down????
pay per view must see!!

No, this is Dennis creating a...

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/topaz720/SmokeScreenting2.jpg

Xisbum
10-09-2009, 03:24 AM
Oh, he!!, Jolly. Come on down to NOVA and play me. I'm just an old stumbling lower-level 3.5, so if all this stuff people are saying about you is true, I should kick your butt.

You can wear your new Nike stuff and I'll dress in my new Lotto attire. We'll put on a show for ourselves. After the match, I'll treat you to IHop or some other fine dining establishment of yoru choice. And a brewski or two, naturally. ;-)

What say you? Let's end this tedium, i.e. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

Sup2Dresq
10-09-2009, 04:24 AM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q35/Airbornillness/Admiral-Ackbar-trap.jpg


LOL. Does anyone else smell smoke? Did Jolly post in this thread and I missed it? Is Dennis locked in Jolly's basement?

Dennis.. one word.. better yet.. one picture:

http://www.dustytrice.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/KeyboardCat.png

Sup2Dresq
10-09-2009, 04:27 AM
Oh, he!!, Jolly. Come on down to NOVA and play me. I'm just an old stumbling lower-level 3.5, so if all this stuff people are saying about you is true, I should kick your butt.

You can wear your new Nike stuff and I'll dress in my new Lotto attire. We'll put on a show for ourselves. After the match, I'll treat you to IHop or some other fine dining establishment of yoru choice. And a brewski or two, naturally. ;-)

What say you? Let's end this tedium, i.e. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Xaeon/passnot.jpg

Xisbum,

I am starting to get used to our Friday morning hits.

Like a casual walk in the park on a nice breezy day... coupled with bright shiny tennis apparel and the darth vader strings on your side of the court.

So elder of the spin shot, when is the next outing?

JRstriker12
10-09-2009, 04:45 AM
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Xaeon/passnot.jpg

Xisbum,

I am starting to get used to our Friday morning hits.

Like a casual walk in the park on a nice breezy day... coupled with bright shiny tennis apparel and the darth vader strings on your side of the court.

So elder of the spin shot, when is the next outing?

+1 - Friday AM hits are fantastic. Think we can get the Shcmad-one out again???

Sup2Dresq
10-09-2009, 05:01 AM
+1 - Friday AM hits are fantastic. Think we can get the Shcmad-one out again???

Think he returned to college and his life of non-womanizing.

P.S. lets pick up this convo back at the TWMAC.

tfm1973
10-09-2009, 05:04 AM
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2019/jolly00000.jpg

JRstriker12
10-09-2009, 05:08 AM
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2019/jolly00000.jpg

Damn TFM - talk about kicking a dude while he's down.....

Hasn't Kanye said he's sorry for the incident???

Xisbum
10-09-2009, 05:11 AM
+1 - Friday AM hits are fantastic. Think we can get the Shcmad-one out again???

Methinks Schmad takes his studies too seriously to cut class for Friday tennis more than once. Me - I always scheduled the easiest classes on the MWF cycle just in case the weekend revelry began early on Friday and/or carried over into Monday.

Don't know who else could be our fourth. Dats seems to be the only one who doesn't work regular hours, and maybe sometimes TheJRK man can get away from it all.

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/Xaeon/passnot.jpg

Xisbum,

I am starting to get used to our Friday morning hits.

Like a casual walk in the park on a nice breezy day... coupled with bright shiny tennis apparel and the darth vader strings on your side of the court.

So elder of the spin shot, when is the next outing?

I'm off next Friday young Obiwan (the Ewen McGregor version). Yeah, I get a 3-day work week next week. Don't you just love guvment jobs?

Same Bat time, same Bat channel?

Can't promise any new duds, though. Australia is a long haul from here.

aphex
10-09-2009, 05:16 AM
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2019/jolly00000.jpg

^^^^^^=WIN

caseyguy59
10-12-2009, 03:29 PM
But he has 19 k90 frames with a SW of over +400!!!

hmmm 19x$200.00=$3,800.00, next time save some money and get some lessons. maybe he should switch to something a little more "forgiving" since its only for 5.0+ players...sry but i havent been on this forum in forever and loving seeing this guy being called out HAHAHA

gameboy
10-12-2009, 03:37 PM
Man, that is so cold.... yet so funny...

pabletion
10-12-2009, 06:57 PM
Note to self: never ever ever ever EVER cross TTW members............ EVER!!, I hear me????

drakulie
10-12-2009, 07:00 PM
^^actually, many TW members have been quite forgiving, and have stated they could care less.

pabletion
10-12-2009, 07:26 PM
^Granted.... but then again, others are absolutely ruthless! Then again, many times, that is the way inside internet forums, aint it?

drakulie
10-12-2009, 07:31 PM
^^^agreed. You are wise beyond your years. A great jedi you will be.

AlpineCadet
10-14-2009, 12:51 AM
I've been playing tennis for a few years now and I just haven't gotten around to posting a video of myself, but just wanted to ask Jolly his opinion on strings. I'm playing with full Luxilon at 70lbs in a PD that hasn't been strung in years and my arm is aching, should I give multi a try or is it the same thing as a syn gut? Also, where should I add lead for my J90 setup? I can't afford lessons, but tweaking my equip. seems to work for everyone else?? Please get back to me ASAP. Thank you Jolly, you are my number 1.

caseyguy59
10-14-2009, 10:02 AM
I've been playing tennis for a few years now and I just haven't gotten around to posting a video of myself, but just wanted to ask Jolly his opinion on strings. I'm playing with full Luxilon at 70lbs in a PD that hasn't been strung in years and my arm is aching, should I give multi a try or is it the same thing as a syn gut? Also, where should I add lead for my J90 setup? I can't afford lessons, but tweaking my equip. seems to work for everyone else?? Please get back to me ASAP. Thank you Jolly, you are my number 1.

comeback when you have 18 more...

Djokovicfan4life
10-14-2009, 11:43 AM
This has gone a bit too far guys. So what if he exaggerated his level? I can think of about 10000 other posters who have done that.

Time to forget about it.

JoelDali
10-14-2009, 11:58 AM
This has gone a bit too far guys. So what if he exaggerated his level? I can think of about 10000 other posters who have done that.

Time to forget about it.

Happens everyday where I live.

Every self rated 5.5, 5.0, 4.5 guy I've hit with I've beaten pretty handily.

Except one guy last week I played when I had the flu...friggen junk ballers.

For the haters, it has to do with the paperweight comments.

I don't care, I think Jolly is good guy.

And I'd pay $1000 to see him break ALUP in 30 minutes.

JoelDali
10-14-2009, 12:02 PM
ps

Best. Avatar. Ever!

http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/drhornbuckle/VinceOffer-SlapChop-1.jpg

Jracer77
10-14-2009, 12:07 PM
This has gone a bit too far guys. So what if he exaggerated his level? I can think of about 10000 other posters who have done that.

Time to forget about it.

Hmmmmm.....nah. Maybe when he decides to stop being a blowhard we will. I won't hold my breath. Thanks for your valuable input though and have a nice day. :|

smoothtennis
10-14-2009, 12:07 PM
Well, we have all more than demonstrated our frustration at past comments---Jolly has read it all, and that's it. Not many surprises at this point in time. Everybody had their fun. So let's move on. Jolly is still a nice guy - and no matter what his level, he DOES use a lot of string - and puts in some time. I actually like hearing his input on strings.

Jracer77
10-14-2009, 12:14 PM
Well, we have all more than demonstrated our frustration at past comments---Jolly has read it all, and that's it. Not many surprises at this point in time. Everybody had their fun. So let's move on. Jolly is still a nice guy - and no matter what his level, he DOES use a lot of string - and puts in some time. I actually like hearing his input on strings.

Stay in stinging if you don't like it. Personally nobody tells me when to move on.....Jollytard. And by the way I don't consider compulsive liars "nice guys", but that's just me I guess.