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View Full Version : Rating Agassi, Sampras, Connors, Mac, Fed, Lendl, Borg, in each area of game.


lambielspins
02-18-2007, 11:47 PM
How would you rate the 7 truly greatest players of the last 25 years-McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, and Federer from best to worst in each aspect of the game. For me it would go like:


Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Connors
7. Sampras


Backhand:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

Phil
02-19-2007, 12:11 AM
I don't think a guy who lost 11 of 19 GS Finals should be considered to have the #1 "mental game" of modern times. Your #'s 3, 4 and 5 in that list, should be 1, 2 and 3, with Federer #4.

capriatifanatic
02-19-2007, 12:31 AM
I dont know how Lendl should be rated as far as his mental game since during his dominant 6 year stretch of tennis, probably nobody was a stronger and more determined competitor then he was. However if you look at his entire career, he had many years, including his early years as a strong contender before he began to dominate in a field with a fading McEnroe and aging Connors , where he was extremely prone to nerves and was a shaky big match performer especialy compared to his biggest rivals.

hewittboy
02-19-2007, 03:22 AM
Lendl is no #1 in mental toughness. He is the guy who has reached the most slam finals of any player in history but still sits only in a 5 way tie for 7th in slam events won. That is where his 8-11 record in slam finals takes him to, from a first in slam finals, to sharing 7th with 4 others in slam titles.

Is that a sign of being the beacon of mental toughness of all recent players?
I dont think so.

hewittboy
02-19-2007, 03:44 AM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Lendl
4. McEnroe
5. Agassi
6. Borg
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Sampras
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Borg


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Sampras
5. Borg
6. Connors
7. McEnroe


Backhand:

1. Borg
2. Connors
3. Agassi
4. Federer
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Federer
2. Borg
3. McEnroe
4. Sampras
5. Lendl
6. Connors
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. Connors
6. Agassi
7. Lendl


Mental game:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

DarkSephiroth
02-19-2007, 04:35 AM
Did you both seriously just rank Agassi's forehand above Sampras's?

ctbmar
02-19-2007, 04:46 AM
They ranked Agassi's backhand better than Federer's...
Did you factor in Federer's slice? Ability to hit short low balls with topspin? Around the net post shots? Lunging Backhand Returns with topspin? Short Angle Slice? Super-backspin dropshot with disguise of a slice stroke? Flicking crosscourt with just his wrist on a full stretch to pass players at the net?
Half-volley on a dead-run on his backfoot with control to guide in down-the-line /crosscourt for a winner? Ability to hit short angled topspin like a two handed backhand?
The only thing impressive about Agassi was his hand-eye coordination and hitting on the rise for his returns.

noeledmonds
02-19-2007, 08:32 AM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors

This seems about right to me. Sampras, Federer and McEnroe certainly the top 3, and probabely in that order. I rate Agassi's serve above Borg's and possibly Lendl's, but it is about right.

Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras

I will not go into an Agassi vs. Connors debate on return, but I do rate Agassi higher. Otherwise I might stick Borg's return above Federer's. Lendl deserves to be above McEnroe for sure.

Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Connors
7. Sampras

To have Sampras's forehand last is plain aburd Sampras's forehand was one of his strengths. Sampras should be about 3rd, dropping the others all down a slot.


Backhand:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras

Lendl surely has a better bachand than McEnroe. I do not rate Connors's backhand above Federer's, Borg's or Agassi's. Connors's bachand was not an aggressive shot, and he had little variation. Federer has most variation with his slices, topspins and dropshots but Fed can be inconsistant and struggles with the high ball. Borg just didn't miss backhands (or forehands). Agassi had very solid backhand and a delightful and underated drop shot. It is very difficult to rate these players backhands but I would actually put Borg first because his backhand would be the most difficult to break down. Agassi and Federer can scramble over 2nd, putting Connors at 4th.

Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. Agassi

I suppose this includes court positioning and footwork (if it doesn't then there should definetly be another catergory). If we are looking at the new image Agassi then court positioning and footwork were great strenghs in his game. Agassi was also good moving forward when he choose to. I would stick Sampras at the bottem. I would stick McEnroe way down the list on movement alone, but up again if footwork and positioning are included. Lendl should be 3rd I think. Connors also above McEnore. Agassi in the scrap somewhere.

Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

Borg over Connors (Borg serve and vollyed very sucessfully at Wimbledon). Agassi over Lendl. Agassi rarely choose to come to the net, but when he did he could put away a clean volley.

Mental game:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

This is horribly wrong. I don't where you got these ideas from about Lendl being a mental giant, with a poor backhand and return, yet an average Serve? This is not what I view him as at all. Borg surely tops the list. Borg has a 26-4 record in 5 sets (the best of any by far). The only thing that phased Borg was the US crowds. Sampras is next. The man who had a great 5 set record despite unsublime stamina, and could even win a 5 set tiebreak while throwing up. If you want a big serve at a crucial time then he is also your man. Federer has yet to prove himself mentally. Federer is rarely in tight situations so his mental strength is not really tested. Federer has a very poor record over 5 sets (its about 8-8 ) for someone of his fitness. Federer also sometimes has lapses of concentration. Federer should be 3rd or 4th (with Connors) followed by Lendl, then McEnroe/Agassi.

rleidle
02-19-2007, 08:36 AM
This is the same Lendl that broke down mentally and lost to cramping Chang at the French?

:)

Azzurri
02-19-2007, 08:42 AM
How would you rate the 7 truly greatest players of the last 25 years-McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, and Federer from best to worst in each aspect of the game. For me it would go like:


Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Connors
7. Sampras


Backhand:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

nice list, but Sampras had a better backhand and forehand than Mac.:)
Lendl would not be a #1 for me in the mental department. I would rate him last. Sampras or Fed at #1. Mac should be higher.

anointedone
02-19-2007, 09:17 AM
How I rate the 7 of them is simple:

Forehand:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Backhand:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Net game:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Movement:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Mental game:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Return of serve:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Serve:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Sampras is the best at everything of all those 7 guys, and Federer is the worst at everything of those 7 guys. Sampras is a god, a superhuman. Federer is the best player of a horrable era of tennis, he beats up a bunch of losers and even though he is average he wins all the time. He would get killed by a real champion.

The tennis guy
02-19-2007, 09:32 AM
How I rate the 7 of them is simple:

Forehand:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Backhand:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Net game:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Movement:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Mental game:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer

Return of serve:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Serve:

1. Sampras
2-6. everyone else
7. Federer


Sampras is the best at everything of all those 7 guys, and Federer is the worst at everything of those 7 guys. Sampras is a god, a superhuman. Federer is the best player of a horrable era of tennis, he beats up a bunch of losers and even though he is average he wins all the time. He would get killed by a real champion.

This moron forgot to take his medication.

Jet Rink
02-19-2007, 09:41 AM
I'll simplify my response and go like this (and as you can see, I agree with many of your picks!):

Serve:
1. Sampras
2. McEnroe
3. Becker

Return of Serve:
1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer

Forehand:
1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi

Backhand:
1. Connors
2. Federer
3. Borg

Overall movement:
1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe

Net play:
1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer

Mental game:
1. Borg
2. Federer
3. Wilander


Note: The toughest category was the last. How can we really know? And do you mean from a tactical standpoint? I would say that, for me, "Mental Game" would entail a player's ability to adjust in the course of a match. With that being the case, Mac would be in my top three. The top three above though reflects a much more benign approach: Who could keep their head in a match and just grind.

Also, I tried to stay within the bounds of your "past 25 years" boundary. You also could consider the Open Era.

Cool.

Jet

Nick Irons
02-19-2007, 09:46 AM
Nice list Jet

It is the first one that appears to have any actual thought put into it. These fellas that are putting Federer atop the Service List aren't doing their homework.

I have to agree, more or less with your choices; I'd probably put Roger atop the 'movement' over Borg however.

Bjorn99
02-19-2007, 10:12 AM
Sampras moved incredibly well. And McEnroe had the best anticipation, but basically lurched for a first step and launced himself. McEnroe and Connors and Agassi and Lendl don't even deserve to be rated in the same league as Federer, Borg and Sampras. Not EVEN open for discussion. Watch the film.

And movement is why Lendl, Agassi and McEnroe aren't considered anywhere near being the GOAT, except by their loyalest, of fans.

Bjorn99
02-19-2007, 10:19 AM
And in terms of the movement, Borg was a midget compared to Roger, so I think Rogers movement is even more impressive. Borg was a dancer on the court though. Between that and his ability to push, he was impossible to beat on clay. Impossible.

drakulie
02-19-2007, 10:28 AM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl/Agassi
5. Borg
6. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. Connors
7. McEnroe

Backhand:

1. Agassi
2. Federer
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe


Overall movement:

1. Federer
2. Borg
3. Sampras
4. Agassi
5. Connors
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe

Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. McEnroe

noeledmonds
02-19-2007, 10:47 AM
Sampras moved incredibly well. And McEnroe had the best anticipation, but basically lurched for a first step and launced himself. McEnroe and Connors and Agassi and Lendl don't even deserve to be rated in the same league as Federer, Borg and Sampras. Not EVEN open for discussion. Watch the film.

And movement is why Lendl, Agassi and McEnroe aren't considered anywhere near being the GOAT, except by their loyalest, of fans.

Lendl, Agassi and McEnroe's weakness was their mental strength, not their movement. McEnroe had a tendancy to explode and let a 2 set lead and a break slip at the FO final. Lendl lost 11 GS finals including to a cramping Chang. Agassi was up and down like a yo-yo. Agassi had is rebel image that prevented him from entering wimbledon.

Sampras's movement not supiror to these guys. His movement was let down by a lack of stamina (particualrly towards the end of his reign). Borg had the best movement, but Federer's was more fluid.

The tennis guy
02-19-2007, 11:20 AM
Lendl lost 11 GS finals including to a cramping Chang.

Lendl didn't lose French Open final to Chang. He lost in early round to Chang. Chang beat Edberg in final of French in 89.

noeledmonds
02-19-2007, 11:23 AM
Lendl didn't lose French Open final to Chang. He lost in early round to Chang. Chang beat Edberg in final of French in 89.

Sorry, you are correct. Alright then. Lendl lost 11 GS finals, and that does not even include an earlier round loss at the FO to a cramping Chang!:-D

shakes1975
02-19-2007, 11:50 AM
How would you rate the 7 truly greatest players of the last 25 years-McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, and Federer from best to worst in each aspect of the game. For me it would go like:


Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Connors
7. Sampras


Backhand:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

Serve:

1. sampras
2. mcenroe
3. federer
4. lendl
5. borg
6. agassi
7. connors

Return of serve:

1. connors
2T. agassi
2T. federer
4. borg
5. mcenroe
6. sampras
7. lendl

Forehand:

1. federer
2. sampras
3. lendl
4. agassi
5. mcenroe
6. borg
7. connors

Backhand:

1. agassi
2. federer
3. connors
4. borg
5. mcenroe
6. sampras
7. lendl

Net Play:

1. sampras
2. mcenroe
3. federer
4. lendl
5. connors
6. borg
7. agassi

Overall movement:

1. federer
2T. borg
2T. sampras
4. mcenroe
5. lendl
6. connors
7. agassi

Mental game:

1. connors
2. sampras
3. borg
4. federer
5. mcenroe
6. agassi
7. lendl

Zimbo
02-19-2007, 05:46 PM
I'll simplify my response and go like this (and as you can see, I agree with many of your picks!):

Serve:
1. Sampras
2. McEnroe
3. Becker

Overall movement:
1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe

Net play:
1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer

Mental game:
1. Borg
2. Federer
3. Wilander


Note: The toughest category was the last. How can we really know? And do you mean from a tactical standpoint? I would say that, for me, "Mental Game" would entail a player's ability to adjust in the course of a match. With that being the case, Mac would be in my top three. The top three above though reflects a much more benign approach: Who could keep their head in a match and just grind.

Also, I tried to stay within the bounds of your "past 25 years" boundary. You also could consider the Open Era.

Cool.

Jet

Good list Jet. However, I would place Becker serve above Mac's. For movement, I wouldn't place Mac at the third position. I would place either Edberg or Wilander there. Speaking of Edberg, did you forget about him? He's number 2 when it comes to net play. I was glad that somebody remember Wilander and his mental prowess. I would probably place him second and Fed/Mac/connors third.

dunlopfan
02-19-2007, 06:00 PM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Agassi
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Borg


Return of Serve:

1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Federer
4. McEnroe
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Connors


Backhand:

1. Agassi
2. Federer
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe


Overall movement:

1. Federer
2. Borg
3. Agassi
4. Sampras
5. Connors
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe


Net play:

1. Sampras
2. McEnore
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Borg
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Borg
4. Sampras
5. Agassi
6. Connors
7. McEnroe

BeckerFan
02-19-2007, 07:02 PM
I actually disagree with your seven players, but that's beside the point. Sampras certainly had the best serve of the modern greats, by quite a lot. Best return goes to Agassi, with Federer and Connors close behind (they are/were both more consistent, but Agassi was more explosive).

Forehand goes to Federer, who has perhaps the best forehand of any player of the Open Era. Sampras's running forehand deserves mention too, though Federer's anticipation and footwork are so good that he rarely NEEDS a running forehand. The backhand is tough, but I will give this honor to Federer as well. Connors, Borg and Agassi all had superb two-handers, but the one-hander simply gives better reach and variety. The consistency of Federer's stroke seems to be improving.

Best movement: Borg, in a landslide. He is the fastest player I have ever seen, beyond any shadow of a doubt. The only comparable experience was seeing video clips of Fred Perry bounding about in his wide trousers. Federer is a great mover too, but he can't scramble like Borg. No one can.

Net play is a tricky category. There are so many variables to account for: the touch and placement of the volley itself, the quality of the approach, and the ability to set up the approach with a big serve (or groundstroke). McEnroe was probably the best volleyer in modern tennis, followed by Edberg, though I might argue that the overall net play of Sampras or even Becker would win out. In the final analysis, I would give the blue ribbon to McEnroe, but with some hesitation.

Your choice of Lendl for mental game is a poor one. Perhaps the most memorable thing about Lendl was his failure to win Wimbledon. He faced Becker six times in Grand Slam matches and beat the German only once, and that was a five-set victory at the US Open in 1992! Lendl was mentally tougher than McEnroe or Connors, but weaker than Becker, who was in turn weaker than Sampras. Federer is perhaps the best big-match player of all, even better than Sampras, though he has a weakness in five-set matches. I give the blue ribbon to Borg, the most stoic of all the great players, and the undisputed king of long matches. His one shortcoming--his failure to win the US Open in four final appearances--can perhaps be excused, for he faced the emotional Americans Connors and McEnroe in those finals.

TheNatural
02-20-2007, 01:13 AM
I think Mcenroes net play was a bit over rated. Edberg would have got this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xAPwx3z950















































lol (I was kidding ofcourse, but its a funny clip of mcenroe volleying)

OrangeOne
02-20-2007, 01:37 AM
Wow - some very interesting points.

Here's one from a self-confessed Lendl-fan: making 19 GS finals, 5 years at #1... that sure takes a lot of mental toughness, in some ways endless-driving-consistency takes more mental strength than irregular flashes of brilliance. Also him even making two W finals...that took amazing focus and mental strength too.

I'm not saying he should be #1 on that list, but I don't think he should be #7 there either.

anointedone
02-20-2007, 02:32 AM
Federer's game sucks and he should be last on each list in each area. Look at his games:

serve-fluffy serve with no power
forehand-lots of moonballing to it, too much topspin
backhand-hits that woosy slice, a wimpy shot, not the hard crips ones like a real man
net play-so awful at net, flubs balls at his knees
mental game-is scared of anybody that stands up to him
movement-fat and slow around the court
return-little woosy return, just pokes at it

He should be last in everything, his game sucks. He wins everything since nobody around is better then him now, the whole field sucks, he is bad but the best of that really bad field so wins alot which makes him look really good when he isnt.

OrangeOne
02-20-2007, 02:37 AM
Federer's game sucks and he should be last on each list in each area. Look at his games:

serve-fluffy serve with no power
forehand-lots of moonballing to it, too much topspin
backhand-hits that woosy slice, a wimpy shot, not the hard crips ones like a real man
net play-so awful at net, flubs balls at his knees
mental game-is scared of anybody that stands up to him
movement-fat and slow around the court
return-little woosy return, just pokes at it

He should be last in everything, his game sucks. He wins everything since nobody around is better then him now, the whole field sucks, he is bad but the best of that really bad field so wins alot which makes him look really good when he isnt.

Please go away.

35ft6
02-20-2007, 03:28 AM
How would you rate the 7 truly greatest players of the last 25 years-McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, and Federer from best to worst in each aspect of the game. For me it would go like: Serve: Sampras
Returns: Agassi
Forehand: Federer
Backhand: Agassi, but on a different day, I could easily pick Federer as well
Volleys: Edberg, but since he's not on the list, Mac
Footwork: Federer
Fitness: Lendl
The Ability to Sneak into Net at most Opportune Times: Connors
Showmanship: Connors
Mental: Federer

Azzurri
02-20-2007, 05:36 AM
Sampras moved incredibly well. And McEnroe had the best anticipation, but basically lurched for a first step and launced himself. McEnroe and Connors and Agassi and Lendl don't even deserve to be rated in the same league as Federer, Borg and Sampras. Not EVEN open for discussion. Watch the film.

And movement is why Lendl, Agassi and McEnroe aren't considered anywhere near being the GOAT, except by their loyalest, of fans.

I believe Mac drove Borg into retirement and Borg was still in his prime. I agree Agassi should not be at the level the rest were at, but each and every one of these players dominated at some point (and for a few years) their peers.

Connors...c'mon...the guy was amazing. He had a crap serve. Yet, he dominated in the mid 70's. The guy won slams into his 30's.

Lendl dominated a really good class of players in the mid to late 80's. He was a flake for a while, but changed his mental approach.

Other than Agassi, partly because he did not dominate his peers, all deserve high regard and belong in the same breath....just my 2 cents.:)

Azzurri
02-20-2007, 05:41 AM
Sampras's movement not supiror to these guys. His movement was let down by a lack of stamina (particualrly towards the end of his reign). Borg had the best movement, but Federer's was more fluid.[/QUOTE]


Don't forget Sampras had a rare blood disorder. Here is a quaote from Wikpedia:

Sampras has thalassemia minor, an inherited disease that causes anemia. Thalassemia minor limits physical and athletic endurance and causes those who have it to feel fatigued when forced to perform athletic feats. Sampras was generally able to control this condition, although he was not known for his endurance in extremely long matches. Sampras vomited on the court during his epic 7-6, 5-7, 5-7, 6-4, 7-6 win in the 1996 US Open quarterfinals against Alex Corretja - a match that lasted 4 hours and 9 minutes. During this match, Pete's close friend and radio presenter Patrick McCafferty turned up during the second set.

Also..the guy had to sleep like 12 hours a day....

Azzurri
02-20-2007, 05:44 AM
Wow - some very interesting points.

Here's one from a self-confessed Lendl-fan: making 19 GS finals, 5 years at #1... that sure takes a lot of mental toughness, in some ways endless-driving-consistency takes more mental strength than irregular flashes of brilliance. Also him even making two W finals...that took amazing focus and mental strength too.

I'm not saying he should be #1 on that list, but I don't think he should be #7 there either.

I agree w/you. I put Lendl last only because I felt the other's had more. But all still had mental toughness. Lendl was a great, great player. Too bad he was such a bore.

noeledmonds
02-20-2007, 09:59 AM
I believe Mac drove Borg into retirement and Borg was still in his prime. I agree Agassi should not be at the level the rest were at, but each and every one of these players dominated at some point (and for a few years) their peers.

Connors...c'mon...the guy was amazing. He had a crap serve. Yet, he dominated in the mid 70's. The guy won slams into his 30's.

Lendl dominated a really good class of players in the mid to late 80's. He was a flake for a while, but changed his mental approach.

Other than Agassi, partly because he did not dominate his peers, all deserve high regard and belong in the same breath....just my 2 cents.:)

Agassi is defenitly in this group! Agassi is the only player in history to have won the career GS across 4 different surfaces. Look at all the players. They all failed at 1 slam. Sampras barely tried to win the FO. Lendl could not win Wimbledon despite all the sacrifices he made and not playing the FO. McEnroe fell apart mentally to lose the FO final from 2 sets and a break up. Borg could not cope with noisy crowds and night sessions. Federer has yet to prove himself at the FO after a dissapointing loss last year. Connors did not win the FO (I know he was banned, but that does not mean he would have won it). Agassi was inconsistant but he did spend over 100 weeks at world number 1. On rebound ace Agassi dominated everyone. Agassi has more rebound ace AO titles than any other male player. Agassi lost just 1 set on 2 occasions. Beat Sampras twice here and never lost to him. Sampras's lead over Agassi is always exagerated. Sampras only holds a 9-7 lead over Agassi in ATP finals. Sampras could not win a match off Agassi at the AO or the FO. Sampras was better at SW19 and the USO, but Agassi was better at the AO and the FO. Their H2H would be much closer if Sampras had been good enough to meet Agassi on more occasions on the slower surfaces (particularly clay). Agassi holds 10-4 lead against Becker, a 6-3 lead over Edberg, a 8-4 lead over Kafelnikov, 7-4 lead over Kuerten, 15-7 lead over Chang and a 10-5 lead over Rafter. Agassi could certainly dominate some of the leading players of his time. Agassi's best Win to Loss record is 72-10 (in 1995). This is better than Sampras's best ever year (his best was 72-12). Agassi reached 4 consecutive GS finals. Neither Connors, Sampras, Borg or McEnore achieved this. This is domination and success.

kanjii
02-20-2007, 02:15 PM
How would you rate the 7 truly greatest players of the last 25 years-McEnroe, Connors, Lendl, Sampras, Agassi, and Federer from best to worst in each aspect of the game. For me it would go like:


Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors

For me, it's Lendl, Mac, Sampras, and the rest.


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras

Looks good there.


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Connors
7. Sampras

Lendl is first....but if he doesn't win the point in 3 shots...he's 4th behind Fed, Sampras, Agassi.


Backhand:

1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras

Agassi, Lendl, Fed, and the rest...


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. Agassi

No change here..


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

No change either..


Mental game:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. Sampras
6. McEnroe
7. Agassi

I think it should be titled emotionless game....

Moose Malloy
02-20-2007, 02:39 PM
Lendl was mentally tougher than McEnroe or Connors, but weaker than Becker, who was in turn weaker than Sampras.

Could you expand on this? I know "mental toughness" isn't something that can't easily be explained, but I think Connors & Mac far-outclassed Lendl in this category. As someone mentioned Lendl lost more slam finals than anyone else in history & to players he was heavily favored to beat at times(Cash at '87 W, Wilander at '85 FO, Connors at '82/'83 US Open, arguably Becker at '86 W as well)
Connors & Mac were 2 of the toughest players mentally, I've ever seen.

Agassi reached 4 consecutive GS finals. Neither Connors, Sampras, Borg or McEnore achieved this.

Borg & Connors reached 6 straight slam finals.

FiveO
02-20-2007, 02:55 PM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. McEnroe
4. Borg
5. Lendl
6. Agassi
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Agassi
2. Connors
3. Federer
4. Borg
5. Lendl
6. Sampras
7. McEnroe


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. Connors
7. McEnroe


Backhand:

1. Federer
2. Agassi
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. Sampras
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe


Overall movement:

1. Federer
2. Borg
3. Sampras
4. Agassi
5. Connors
6. McEnroe
7. Lendl


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Borg
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Lendl
6. Agassi
7. McEnroe

BeckerFan
02-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Certainly. As you said, mental toughness is a tough category to define. Your point is well taken that Lendl lost more Grand Slam finals than any other player. Yet I think the flipside of that argument also applies: Lendl REACHED more Grand Slam finals than any other player. Consistency was Lendl's middle name in the 1980s. In five seasons he won over 90% of his matches--as far as I know, McEnroe hit this mark only once [1984], Connors three times [1974, 1976 and 1978] ... though I don't have the complete data in front of me for the 1970s, so you could correct me.

In any case, I do agree that Lendl had a weakness on the big stages; those two huge losses to Connors at the US Open are especially problematic. But I try to weigh all factors. Lendl had a winning record against all his major rivals in the 1980s, with the sole exception of Borg, and as you know I consider Borg to have been the toughest of them all. By contrast, Connors had a losing record to Borg, McEnroe AND Lendl. McEnroe had a bad record against Lendl, though he was dead even with Borg.

It's tricky, I admit, and you do have a good case. The mental games of Connors and McEnroe may have had greater heights, but they were also more volatile. Especially seeing the way Lendl manhandled McEnroe in 1981-1982, two of McEnroe's prime years, I have to give him the final nod.

BeckerFan
02-20-2007, 03:19 PM
Just a quick illustration of my previous argument. Think of the three top players on the WTA last year: Mauresmo, Henin-Hardenne and Sharapova. You can point to Henin-Hardenne and say, she lost THREE Grand Slam finals, while the others lost none. But I still think she was mentally the strongest player on tour. It takes a certain kind of toughness to win on those big stages, but it takes another, more consistent kind of toughness to reach those stages in the first place. I feel that's the kind of strength that made Lendl so excellent, and it shouldn't be overlooked.

OrangeOne
02-20-2007, 03:24 PM
Consistency was Lendl's middle name in the 1980s.
....
In any case, I do agree that Lendl had a weakness on the big stages;

I once heard it said that Lendl was a player who usually came into a tournament at a high level and stayed there, he wasn't known for losing in the early rounds, hell, 19 GS Finals shows remarkable consistency indeed.

But the point being made was that, to use a pop-culture analogy, his dial 'only 'went up to 10 :), and he'd usually be at 10. Didn't matter if it was a smaller tournament or a bigger one, he would come in at that level and play at it.

The trouble is, some players, and in fact, many in his era (Becker, Cash & Mc especially, Connors too I guess), can go to '11'. Now it meant they (other than connors, maybe) may not have the same ridiculous consistency as Lendl, but in a big stage, they could pull that little more. They were fiery, explosive, emotional beasts, where Lendl was the consummate profesisonal doing a job. He came into the match playing his best, and he'd usually give a great performance. Some of his contemporaries, well they might start at tournament at 2, and reach 11 in the final. If they reached only '9', Lendl walked away with the trophy, '10' was a great match, and '11', well Lendl didn't have the same 'emotional response' to match it....

Thesedays you think of Fed, Hewitt, Safin, Baghdatis - these are players who have that '11' ability. Davydenko, Ljubi, Blake, Roddick even.... not so much the big-stage huge-performance deal...

The Gorilla
02-20-2007, 03:39 PM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2T Lendl
2T Borg
4. mcEnroe
5. Federer
6. Connors
7. Agassi


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5T. Federer
5T. Sampras
7. McEnroe


Forehand:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3T. Borg
3T. Sampras
5.Agassi,(only just behind!)
6T. Connors
6T. McEnroe


Backhand:

1. Lendl
2. Borg
3T. Agassi
3T. Connors (very competetive category!)
5. McEnroe
6. Federer
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2T. Lendl
2T. Sampras
2T. Mcenroe
2T. Federer
2T.Connors
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Borg
3T.Sampras
3T. Connors
5T.Federer
5T. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1T. Borg
1T.Connors
3.McEnroe
4T.Federer
4T. Sampras
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

Moose Malloy
02-20-2007, 03:48 PM
Ranking Mac at 7 in returning is madness. I have a huge collection of his matches, he was almost Agassi like in how early he took the return, esp against other S&V players. He's certainly better than Lendl, possibly even Borg, who most of the time were just getting the return in play. Mac was attacking, constantly on returns.

The Gorilla
02-20-2007, 03:55 PM
Ranking Mac at 7 in returning is madness. I have a huge collection of his matches, he was almost Agassi like in how early he took the return, esp against other S&V players. He's certainly better than Lendl, possibly even Borg, who most of the time were just getting the return in play. Mac was attacking, constantly on returns.

He had a weak and inconsistant backhand return whilst all the others had very powerful backhand returns.He is in a very competetive group, I'm not saying mcenroe didn't have amazing returns by ordinary standards, just compared to the others.

The Gorilla
02-20-2007, 03:57 PM
it was striking how many of these goat's have amazing backhands.

lambielspins
02-20-2007, 04:02 PM
Ranking Mac at 7 in returning is madness. I have a huge collection of his matches, he was almost Agassi like in how early he took the return, esp against other S&V players. He's certainly better than Lendl, possibly even Borg, who most of the time were just getting the return in play. Mac was attacking, constantly on returns.

Sampras is the easy #7 of these 7 on returns. He is a good returner but clearly the least strong of these 7 players.

Moose Malloy
02-20-2007, 04:05 PM
Sampras is the easy #7 of these 7 on returns. He is a good returner but clearly the least strong of these 7 players.

Yeah, I agree. Especially since he only tried to break one game per set & basically tanked the rest of the return games. Impressed that he could pull off that strategy though, it sounds crazy that anyone would dare play that way.

lambielspins
02-20-2007, 04:08 PM
Yeah, I agree. Especially since he only tried to break one game per set & basically tanked the rest of the return games. Impressed that he could pull off that strategy though, it sounds crazy that anyone would dare play that way.

Yeah I agree that is impressive. Having arguably the greatest serve of all time helped alot though and probably was a large part of that mentality.

paterson
02-20-2007, 04:15 PM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Lendl
4. McEnroe
5. Agassi
6. Borg
7. Connors


Return of Serve:

1. Federer
2. Agassi
3. Connors
4. McEnroe
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Agassi
4. Lendl
5. McEnroe
6. Borg
7. Connors


Backhand:

1. Federer
2. Agassi
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. Lendl
6. Mcenroe
7. Sampras


Overall movement:

1. Borg
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. McEnroe
5. Lendl
6. Connors/Agassi



Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. McEnroe
5. Lendl
6. Connors/ Agassi

The Gorilla
02-20-2007, 04:15 PM
I don't think so, he was pretty much the same as Federer, he just blocked serves back into play, back in the 90's that wasn't enough to get you noticed though.

capriatifanatic
02-20-2007, 06:35 PM
I don't think so, he was pretty much the same as Federer, he just blocked serves back into play, back in the 90's that wasn't enough to get you noticed though.

Sampras could not have ever held the huge servers to as low a number of aces and service winners as Federer can. In case you havent noticed you are the only one who didnt have Federer over Sampras on the return of serve. You are in your own little world on that one I am afraid.

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 07:45 AM
Forehand:

1. Federer
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Sampras
5. Borg
6. McEnroe
7. Connors


Backhand:

1. Federer
2. Agassi
3. Borg
4. Connors
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Serve:

1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Lendl
4. McEnroe
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors


Return:

1. Federer
2. Agassi
3. Connors
4. McEnroe
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Sampras


Movement:

1. Federer
2. Borg
3. Sampras
4. McEnroe
5. Lendl
6. Connors
7. Agassi


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Federer
3. Sampras
4. Borg
5. Connors
6. Lendl
7. Agassi


Mental game:

1. Federer
2. Sampras
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. McEnroe
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

noeledmonds
02-22-2007, 08:18 AM
You have much to learn federerfanatic. I fanatic you are, but it has blurred your judgment. Federer's serve and his volleying are both far insuperior to Sampras's. Federer's backhand is his weakness, you wouldn't get Nadal targetting Borg's or Agassi's backhand. Federer has done nothing to prove mental strength. Federer has often lost matches from tight situations (his record in five sets is about 8-8 ). Federer rarely gets in these situations because he is so tallented. Look at someone like Borg, he only lost 4 five setters in his career (26-4). Federer's stamina does not let him down over 5 sets, so it must be mental. The return is a very subjective catergory, but if you want a percentage return then it has to be Connors, or if you want winners then it has to be Agassi. I will give you the forehand one.

The Gorilla
02-22-2007, 08:20 AM
how do mcenroe,federer, even sampras have superior movement to Borg?

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 09:24 AM
You have much to learn federerfanatic. I fanatic you are, but it has blurred your judgment.

Federer is on his way to being the best player ever by far. It is totally reasonable to think he is the best of the last 25 years in most categories, whether you like him or not.

Federer's serve and his volleying are both far insuperior to Sampras's.

Sampras had such a huge serve he poked away easy volleys. Federer does not serve-volley and comes in during the middle of points and makes tougher volleys. Federer can serve over 130 like Pete could and his placement, variety, action is just as perfect.

Federer's backhand is his weakness, you wouldn't get Nadal targetting Borg's or Agassi's backhand.

You are right, because their forehands are not as scary as Roger's is. Roger's grip and style preference does not like the heavy topspin of Nadal to the backhand side, it doesnt mean his backhand isnt the best. Connors did not like wide slices and kick serves to his backhand, it doesnt mean it isnt one of the best backhands ever.

Federer has done nothing to prove mental strength.

Yeah you go 10-1 in slam finals because of your lack of mental strength, and lose 9 matches in 2 years because of lack of mental strength. Next.....

The return is a very subjective catergory, but if you want a percentage return then it has to be Connors, or if you want winners then it has to be Agassi. I will give you the forehand one.

If you want somebody who is able to get their raquet on, or meet more of huge servers first serves, and get them back in play deep with enough action to start the point on neutral, it is Federer.



So lets see: weak backhand, weak return of serve, weak serve, weak volley, no mental strength, 10 grand slams, record # of weeks at #1. I guess Federer must have taken Gilbert's "winning ugly" to a new level then, and just combined it with only a great forehand.

BeckerFan
02-22-2007, 09:33 AM
I think Federer is a great server ... and often an underrated one. He undoubtedly has one of the most effective serves in the game today. But there is no way in hell it should be rated higher than Sampras's.

noeledmonds
02-22-2007, 10:01 AM
Federer is on his way to being the best player ever by far. It is totally reasonable to think he is the best of the last 25 years in most categories, whether you like him or not.

I am actually a fan of Federer and greatly admire his game, I belive he will eclipse many records. However all his shots are not suprior to other greats. Every player has strengths and relative weaknesses.

Sampras had such a huge serve he poked away easy volleys. Federer does not serve-volley and comes in during the middle of points and makes tougher volleys. Federer can serve over 130 like Pete could and his placement, variety, action is just as perfect.

You have just effectivly admited that Sampras's serve is better, as he creates easier put aways. Pete's speed was not what made his serve so great, it was also his placement. Pete also had the knack of producing the big serves on the key points, even the 2nd serve aces. This is not something you see Federer do. Federer's volleys are good, but Pete's were far better. He put away easy volleys, but could also put away diving volleys, half volleys and drop volleys. Federer does fine when he comes to the net, but has neither the varitey or consisntancy of Sampras at the net.

You are right, because their forehands are not as scary as Roger's is. Roger's grip and style preference does not like the heavy topspin of Nadal to the backhand side, it doesnt mean his backhand isnt the best. Connors did not like wide slices and kick serves to his backhand, it doesnt mean it isnt one of the best backhands ever.

Come on Federer does not have the best backhand in his genertation. Federer's backhand can be broken down and is more error prone than many. He can still hit spectacular winners but so can all the players. Federer's bachand is not rock solid and can be exploited more than some players

Yeah you go 10-1 in slam finals because of your lack of mental strength, and lose 9 matches in 2 years because of lack of mental strength. Next.....

Winning matches does not show mental strength. He won the matches due to suprior shot making. Federer does not always win tight matches. Federer has a worse 5 set record than any other player on the list. Why would this be, given his fitness, if he did not have a mental weakness?

If you want somebody who is able to get their raquet on, or meet more of huge servers first serves, and get them back in play deep with enough action to start the point on neutral, it is Federer.

That is not what I want in a great returner. I think something should be done with the return.

So lets see: weak backhand, weak return of serve, weak serve, weak volley, no mental strength, 10 grand slams, record # of weeks at #1. I guess Federer must have taken Gilbert's "winning ugly" to a new level then, and just combined it with only a great forehand.

I did NOT say any of his shots were weak. I just said they were not the best of the last 25 years. There is a big difference. I think Federer has a strong serve and backhand etc.

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 10:15 AM
I am actually a fan of Federer and greatly admire his game, I belive he will eclipse many records. However all his shots are not suprior to other greats. Every player has strengths and relative weaknesses.

I did not say all his shots were superior to other greats. I rated his volleying 2nd behind McEnroe's.


You have just effectivly admited that Sampras's serve is better, as he creates easier put aways.

No I didnt, I said he liked to serve-volley so he was able to put away easy putaways at the net. Fed could do this but prefers to stay back and hit the greatest shot of all time-the Federer forehand, for winners.

Pete's speed was not what made his serve so great, it was also his placement.

Roger places his serve as well as anyone, he can hit any line and on the outside of lines consistently.

Pete also had the knack of producing the big serves on the key points, even the 2nd serve aces. This is not something you see Federer do.

You obviously dont see Federer play much. Federer always comes up with clutch serves when he needs them, he gets his first serve in always on big points so he doesnt need a clutch 2nd serve.

Federer's volleys are good, but Pete's were far better. He put away easy volleys, but could also put away diving volleys, half volleys and drop volleys. Federer does fine when he comes to the net, but has neither the varitey or consisntancy of Sampras at the net.

Naw Sampras hit some great volleys, but missed a bunch of easy volleys I have seen too.

Come on Federer does not have the best backhand in his genertation. Federer's backhand can be broken down and is more error prone than many.

Ok you were saying he doesnt have the best backhand of these players, but now you are even saying he doesnt even have the best backhand of his own generation of players? ROTFL! Who the hell was better, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, pleaaasssseee! Even if you dont think he is the best on this list as I do he has a better then anyone in his own generation easily.

He can still hit spectacular winners but so can all the players. Federer's bachand is not rock solid and can be exploited more than some players

Nadal is the only player who can exploit it, and only on slow high bouncing courts. Big deal, as I said Connors and his great backhand had trouble with the wide slices to the backhand, Agassi is dead whenever he is stretched out and has to hit a 1 handed backhand. That does not mean Federer's backhand is not as good or better then anyone elses.

Winning matches does not show mental strength. He won the matches due to suprior shot making. Federer does not always win tight matches. Federer has a worse 5 set record than any other player on the list. Why would this be, given his fitness, if he did not have a mental weakness?

If you watch Federer's matches he almost always win the big points and wins alot of matches in straight sets or 4 sets that could have gone the full 3(
in best 2 of 3)or 5 sets if not for his great mental strength and almost always winning the important points. Anyway how many of those matches were before the start of 2004? Before the start of 2004 means nothing since Federer was not the same player then. I think he has lost 3 5 setters since then in all, 1 of them was to Nadal on clay, no player on this list except maybe Borg who also excelled on clay would win a 5th set vs Nadal on clay, and Federer was 1 point from doing so, another was to Nalbandian were it was only Federer's incredable mental strength that allowed him to win 2 close first sets and almost come back to win the 5th since he was in such poor physical state rushing back from injury to play the event.

That is not what I want in a great returner. I think something should be done with the return.

Well if getting aced by a huge server 40+ times like Agassi is regularly is what you think makes the best returner then your choice. Dont look for me to come over to your side of the fence there.

I did NOT say any of his shots were weak. I just said they were not the best of the last 25 years. There is a big difference. I think Federer has a strong serve and backhand etc.

You say strong, I say the best.

The Gorilla
02-22-2007, 10:27 AM
(1)tommy haas and gaudio have better backhands than federer.
(2)What made Sampras's serve the greatest of all time was that it could not be read, virtually every other great serve could be read, but sampras's could not.As a result players had to wait and watch the ball move before they could decide where to go, it is the same with Ivanisavic.Tim Henman served just sa big as Pete but did not get half the aces he does.I think Federer's serve is more on par with Henman's, well above average, but not in the same league as Sampras.

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 10:37 AM
(1)tommy haas and gaudio have better backhands than federer.
(2)What made Sampras's serve the greatest of all time was that it could not be read, virtually every other great serve could be read, but sampras's could not.As a result players had to wait and watch the ball move before they could decide where to go, it is the same with Ivanisavic.Tim Henman served just sa big as Pete but did not get half the aces he does.I think Federer's serve is more on par with Henman's, well above average, but not in the same league as Sampras.


Haas and Gaudio better backhands then Federer!??! You are nuts. Gaudio and Haas do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING better then Federer except blow snot rockets on court.

Henman did not serve nearly as big as Sampras as you say, and to put Federer's serve equal to Henman's is also nuts.

snapple
02-22-2007, 10:43 AM
Haas and Gaudio better backhands then Federer!??! You are nuts. Gaudio and Haas do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING better then Federer except blow snot rockets on court.

Henman did not serve nearly as big as Sampras as you say, and to put Federer's serve equal to Henman's is also nuts.

Took the words right out of my mouth :)

noeledmonds
02-22-2007, 11:16 AM
No I didnt, I said he liked to serve-volley so he was able to put away easy putaways at the net. Fed could do this but prefers to stay back and hit the greatest shot of all time-the Federer forehand, for winners.

Sampras had such a huge serve he poked away easy volleys. Federer does not serve-volley and comes in during the middle of points and makes tougher volleys.

Naw Sampras hit some great volleys, but missed a bunch of easy volleys I have seen too.

Roger places his serve as well as anyone, he can hit any line and on the outside of lines consistently.

You obviously dont see Federer play much. Federer always comes up with clutch serves when he needs them, he gets his first serve in always on big points so he doesnt need a clutch 2nd serve.



Are you saying that Federer deliberately creates tougher volleys for himself? Come off it. Sampras missed some easy volleys, but as do all players. I have seen Federer miss some sitters too. I have never seen Federer hit a true diving volley. Are you claiming Federer never misses 1st serves on the big points? All players miss 1st serves, that is why the 2nd serve is so important. I have seen Sampras hit countless 2nd serve aces, I cannot recall one 2nd serve ace from Federer. I have been following tennis since well before you were born, and watched Federer since he first made an impact on the scene as a Davis Cup player.

you are even saying he doesnt even have the best backhand of his own generation of players? ROTFL! Who the hell was better, Nadal, Roddick, Hewitt, Safin, pleaaasssseee! Even if you dont think he is the best on this list as I do he has a better then anyone in his own generation easily.

Safin and Gasquet both have sublime backhands. I belive an onform Safin backhand is better.


Nadal is the only player who can exploit it, and only on slow high bouncing courts. Big deal, as I said Connors and his great backhand had trouble with the wide slices to the backhand, Agassi is dead whenever he is stretched out and has to hit a 1 handed backhand. That does not mean Federer's backhand is not as good or better then anyone elses.

Nadal beat Federer and Dubai on a moderately fast hard court you know. Safin was rolling backhands past Federer in the AO 05.

If you watch Federer's matches he almost always win the big points and wins alot of matches in straight sets or 4 sets that could have gone the full 3(
in best 2 of 3)or 5 sets if not for his great mental strength and almost always winning the important points. Anyway how many of those matches were before the start of 2004? Before the start of 2004 means nothing since Federer was not the same player then. I think he has lost 3 5 setters since then in all, 1 of them was to Nadal on clay, no player on this list except maybe Borg who also excelled on clay would win a 5th set vs Nadal on clay, and Federer was 1 point from doing so, another was to Nalbandian were it was only Federer's incredable mental strength that allowed him to win 2 close first sets and almost come back to win the 5th since he was in such poor physical state rushing back from injury to play the event.

The pressure is not really on in straight sets matches. You can always fight again in another set. I am not denying that Federer plays many big points well, but others were better. Federer lost to Safin at AO 05 after having a match point in the forth. Federer missed a shot back through his legs where he could have played a defensive lob. Nearly beating Nalbandian in 5 is not impressive. He has to win to prove the mental strength. Fed lost to Nadal at FO. Federer 0-3 in 5 setters in 2005. 2006: Fed loses to Nadal in Rome final, yet again cannot convert match points. Fed beats Haas in 5 sets (no real pressure though 6-2 in final set). Fed is 1-4 in 5 setters since the start of 2005 (2-4 since 2004 start). I rest my case.


Well if getting aced by a huge server 40+ times like Agassi is regularly is what you think makes the best returner then your choice. Dont look for me to come over to your side of the fence there.

Huge servers to tend to hit aces against many players. Agassi was unfortunate enough to face the probabely the greatest server of all time (Sampras!) in his prime. Agassi hit clean winners off the return like noone else. Agassi took the ball early, hurrying his oponent. Agassi had superb ball striking and hand to eye coordination. There are reasons why players such as McEnroe and Courier desribe Agassi as "the best service returner ever to play tennis".


You say strong, I say the best.
Indeed

The Gorilla
02-22-2007, 01:44 PM
Haas and Gaudio better backhands then Federer!??! You are nuts. Gaudio and Haas do NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING better then Federer except blow snot rockets on court.

Henman did not serve nearly as big as Sampras as you say, and to put Federer's serve equal to Henman's is also nuts.

Haas and Gaudio:
(1)hit as big off the backhand wing as Federer.
(2)Hit more consistently off the backhand wing as Federer.
(3)Have no problem dealing with high bouncing balls to their backhand side on clay.


tim henman serves as fast as pete, if you watch tennis you know this.

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 03:00 PM
Haas and Gaudio:
(1)hit as big off the backhand wing as Federer.
(2)Hit more consistently off the backhand wing as Federer.
(3)Have no problem dealing with high bouncing balls to their backhand side on clay.


tim henman serves as fast as pete, if you watch tennis you know this.

Tim Henman does not serve as fast as Pete, stop with the crap. Henman's serve does not compare to either Pete or Roger, speed or anything else.

Haas makes more mistakes on the backhand then Federer on most days, and Federer's backhand is much bigger then Gaudio's. What a bunch of nonsense your comparision is, you really are out to lunch if you think Haas or Gaudio are better then Federer off any shot. Your last point is dumb too since we arent doing a list of who is best at shots just on clay, yeah we know Gaudio is a loser on everything but clay so might do some shots better on clay then others that he cant do nearly as well on any other surface. On every surface but clay Federer's backhand crushes Gaudio's just like every other part of his game. Did Gaudio use his superior backhand to get murdered 6-0, 6-0 by Federer the last time they played. Yeah his backhand really bothered Fed.

BeckerFan
02-22-2007, 03:12 PM
Regardless, serve quality is not all about speed. That's only one piece of a much larger puzzle.

I know there are posters on this forum who think Roddick has a 'better' serve than Sampras b/c it's been clocked at a higher m.p.h., which is quite sad.

Moose Malloy
02-22-2007, 03:15 PM
I know there are posters on this forum who think Roddick has a 'better' serve than Sampras b/c it's been clocked at a higher m.p.h., which is quite sad.

Yeah I think that's odd as well, since Goran, Becker, Rusedski, Philippoussis, Krajicek all had higher mph than Sampras as well.

As Gilbert said, Sampras can hit a dime. I don't think Roddick can.

federerfanatic
02-22-2007, 03:23 PM
Are you saying that Federer deliberately creates tougher volleys for himself? Come off it. Sampras missed some easy volleys, but as do all players. I have seen Federer miss some sitters too. I have never seen Federer hit a true diving volley. Are you claiming Federer never misses 1st serves on the big points? All players miss 1st serves, that is why the 2nd serve is so important. I have seen Sampras hit countless 2nd serve aces, I cannot recall one 2nd serve ace from Federer. I have been following tennis since well before you were born, and watched Federer since he first made an impact on the scene as a Davis Cup player.

Yes I am saying on big points Federer never misses his first serve. I dont remember him ever doing it. Federer does not need to dive for volleys since his positioning and reflexes are perfect. I agree Federer's 2nd serve is not as great as Pete's but I was ignoring the 2nd serve in my serve rankings anyway.

Safin and Gasquet both have sublime backhands. I belive an onform Safin backhand is better. Nadal beat Federer and Dubai on a moderately fast hard court you know. Safin was rolling backhands past Federer in the AO 05.

So you think 2 matches show everything? How many matches has Federer played in his career now, many hundreds but your example of him not having the best backhand is 2 matches. Now I am even more convinced Federer has the best backhand today and probably of all these great players if that is the best you can do. I have seen matches with Fed and Safin where Fed has outplayed Safin in all areas, including dominating him on the backhand, Hamburg final in 2002, a Davis Cup match that year too. Fed had a mental block vs Nadal around this time last year, which every player has atleast one player they have that against.

The pressure is not really on in straight sets matches. You can always fight again in another set. I am not denying that Federer plays many big points well, but others were better. Federer lost to Safin at AO 05 after having a match point in the forth. Federer missed a shot back through his legs where he could have played a defensive lob. Nearly beating Nalbandian in 5 is not impressive. He has to win to prove the mental strength. Fed lost to Nadal at FO. Federer 0-3 in 5 setters in 2005. 2006: Fed loses to Nadal in Rome final, yet again cannot convert match points. Fed beats Haas in 5 sets (no real pressure though 6-2 in final set). Fed is 1-4 in 5 setters since the start of 2005 (2-4 since 2004 start). I rest my case.

Federer was coming off a huge injury when he played Nalbandian in the 2005 Masters Cup. He pushed himself to even be able to play the event, doctors told him not to. If you saw him play he wasnt anywhere close to being fit and everytime he used his leg-to move, to serve, he was doing it gingerely. To use that as an example against him is cheap, it would be like me using Agassi playing at the French or U.S Open a couple years he played injured against him. Since you bring up that event it is really an example of his incredable mental strength. The fact is he had no business even being in that match with Nalbandian, he was not physically up to playing anymore tennis then it took to play the first 2 long sets, and had nothing in the tank, he showed incredable resilence to get as close to winning the 5th set from way behind as he did, as well as winning 2 3 setters with Ljubicic and Nalbandian in the round robin when he was outplayed in his physically impaired state. Events like that just make me think even more nobody is mentally tougher then Roger.

Yeah Federer chose a stupid shot on match point to end up losing to Safin in the 2005 Australian Open semis. I dont think he showed lack of mental tougness in that match though, he fought back from 5-2 in the 5th to tie it, he showed incredable heart and character that whole match. Safin playing like he did that day would have blown away anybody except Federer.

Fed loses to Nadal at the French Open since Nadal is the best clay courter in the world. It has nothing to do with lack of mental toughness, Nadal is just the best on that surface. Fed is the second best and incredably great on that surface too, and would win many more Frenchs if it wasnt for Nadal and if he improves just a bit more he can start beating Nadal on clay this year. Sampras losing all those early rounds on clay to guys he should beat even on clay is more example of lack of mental toughness then Fed not beating Nadal at the French.

Huge servers to tend to hit aces against many players. Agassi was unfortunate enough to face the probabely the greatest server of all time (Sampras!) in his prime. Agassi hit clean winners off the return like noone else. Agassi took the ball early, hurrying his oponent. Agassi had superb ball striking and hand to eye coordination. There are reasons why players such as McEnroe and Courier desribe Agassi as "the best service returner ever to play tennis".

McEnroe and Courier say alot of other things to, do you believe all of them?
McEnroe picked Agassi to win the French Open every year from 2000-2003 and he lost in the quarters every year, he has always been biased to Agassi, if I am biased to Federer John Mac is just as biased to Agassi as I am to Fed.

Agassi gives up a ton of aces often to all the huge servers I have seen him play. Krajicek, Sampras, Ivanisevic, Phillipousis, Joachim Johansson, I have seen many 40+ matches in aces. Phillipousis, Sampras at 2001 Wimbledon(vs Agassi in 2001-2002 he was still getting a ton of aces BTW), Roddick, Karlovic, cant get nearly as many aces vs Fed though.


Indeed

Yes you are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change yours. We will just have to think what we want to think. Maybe when Federer has 28 slams when he retires you will see why I would rate him the best of the greats of the last 25 years in almost everything.

The Gorilla
02-22-2007, 05:02 PM
Tim Henman does not serve as fast as Pete, stop with the crap. Henman's serve does not compare to either Pete or Roger, speed or anything else.

Haas makes more mistakes on the backhand then Federer on most days, and Federer's backhand is much bigger then Gaudio's. What a bunch of nonsense your comparision is, you really are out to lunch if you think Haas or Gaudio are better then Federer off any shot. Your last point is dumb too since we arent doing a list of who is best at shots just on clay, yeah we know Gaudio is a loser on everything but clay so might do some shots better on clay then others that he cant do nearly as well on any other surface. On every surface but clay Federer's backhand crushes Gaudio's just like every other part of his game. Did Gaudio use his superior backhand to get murdered 6-0, 6-0 by Federer the last time they played. Yeah his backhand really bothered Fed.



No, Gaudio used his inferior mental game.Gaudio is a headcase, nevertheless he still has a better backhand than Federer.

Tim Henman's serve isn't a quarter as good as Sampras's, that wasn't my point, my point is that he serves in similar mph's, but doesn't get half as many aces.This is because his serve is readable and returners can move just before he strikes the ball, Pete Sampras was literally unreadable, you had to move a split second after he hit the ball, you had to see where it was going so in terms of the time you had to move to the ball it is the equivelant of Roddick serving 170mph.

I remember watching a slo mo replay of Youzhny returning Roddick's serve, he moved while the ball was still halfway between roddicks throwing hand and his racquet, I watched out for this and saw the same from Federer.On aggregate, players have far more time to return Roddick's serve than Sampras',.

MTF07
02-22-2007, 11:09 PM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2T Lendl
2T Borg
4. mcEnroe
5. Federer
6. Connors
7. Agassi
I have to disagree. Federe and McEnroe both get the nod over Borg and Lendl, imo.


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5T. Federer
5T. Sampras
7. McEnroe
I'd change that to Agassi at number 2, Federer #3, and Lendl at 5 behind Borg.


Forehand:

1. Lendl
2. Federer
3T. Borg
3T. Sampras
5.Agassi,(only just behind!)
6T. Connors
6T. McEnroe
I would put Federer first, then Sampras, then Lendl, followed by the rest.


Backhand:

1. Lendl
2. Borg
3T. Agassi
3T. Connors (very competetive category!)
5. McEnroe
6. Federer
7. Sampras
I give the slight nod to Agassi here. Federer's variation on the backhand has to put him near the top as well.





Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Borg
3T.Sampras
3T. Connors
5T.Federer
5T. Lendl
7. Agassi
McEnroe should ofcourse be number one, but I have to disagree with Borg at number two. He was solid, but he would be 4th imo. No way Lendl is as good a volleyer as Federer. His poor volleying skills is one of the main reasons he never won Wimbledon. So I'd put Sampras at number two, followed by Federer and Borg, then Connors, followed by Lendl and Agassi.


Mental game:

1T. Borg
1T.Connors
3.McEnroe
4T.Federer
4T. Sampras
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

I have no problems with Borg and Connors at the top of the list, but no way was McEnroe stronger mentally then Sampras and Federer. He's 5th on this list at best.

MTF07
02-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Winning matches does not show mental strength. He won the matches due to suprior shot making. Federer does not always win tight matches. Federer has a worse 5 set record than any other player on the list. Why would this be, given his fitness, if he did not have a mental weakness?


I think Federerfanatic is a bit biased, but this is just a flat out dumb post. So winning matches doesn't=mental strength then? Well how about a 254-15(94.4%) over the last 3 plus years? Certainly someone who was mentally weak could have achieved such sustained success. Or the 10-1 record in slam finals? I guess he just doesn't get up and play the big matches well then? I think that winning 48 out of his last 49 Grand slam matches is a far better indicator of mental toughness as opposed to playing in just 2 5 set matches in that same time period.

MTF07
02-22-2007, 11:37 PM
Fed beats Haas in 5 sets (no real pressure though 6-2 in final set). Fed is 1-4 in 5 setters since the start of 2005 (2-4 since 2004 start). I rest my case.







Ah, so now it needs to be 10-8 in the 5th set to count now does it? I'm sure you know very well that there is no pressure in the 5th set of a grand slam match, given your vast experience in grand slam matches.
Actually, Federer is 2-3 in 5 set matches since 05, 3-3 since 04. He is also 2-1 in grand slam 5 setters since 04. You coulden't even get those facts straight.

noeledmonds
02-23-2007, 01:15 AM
I think Federerfanatic is a bit biased, but this is just a flat out dumb post. So winning matches doesn't=mental strength then? Well how about a 254-15(94.4%) over the last 3 plus years? Certainly someone who was mentally weak could have achieved such sustained success. Or the 10-1 record in slam finals? I guess he just doesn't get up and play the big matches well then? I think that winning 48 out of his last 49 Grand slam matches is a far better indicator of mental toughness as opposed to playing in just 2 5 set matches in that same time period.

Clearly winning matches helps mental strength but it is not the only thing. I view Federer as mentally strong, but not the strongest in the last 25 years (as the fanatic argues). Laver won matches and the Grand Slam, but he is not considered a mental giant. This is because he was very tallented and outplayed his oponents. Federer is similar in that respect. Remember just over 10 years ago Sampras vs. Corejta (1996 USO). Sampras vomits on court, is slumped over his racket, but still saves match point with a lunging volley, sets up his own match point with a 2nd serve ace and a amazed Corejta double faults. Sampras was less dominant, so he was more often in these pressure situations, but none the less when Federer has been in these partiularly tight situations he had yet to perform. Borg is the other player I consider mentally stronger. Take aside the noisy crowds and night sessions in the US and you have a perfect mental player. Borg is 26-4 in 5 set matches.

I see my statistics were not fully complete (I was quoting without researching them, my memory did not hold all the statistics). My point about Haas was that obviously there is pressure at the start of the 5 set, but that is not the same as the pressure when you are match point down. Federer lost 2 5 set matches in the last 2 years where he held match points. To be the greatest in the last 25 years he has something to prove to me.

federerfanatic
02-23-2007, 02:49 AM
When I went over how the 10 of you who made lists, excluding myself, ranked Federer this is what I came across with:

Forehand-8 1sts, 1 2nd, 1 7th, an average ranking of 1.7 per person

Backhand-2 1sts, 4 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, a 6th, a 7th, an average ranking of 3.0 per person

Serve-6 2nds, a 3rd, a 5th, a 7th, an average ranking of 3.0 per person

Return-1 1st, a 2-way tie 2nd(2.5), 6 3rds, a 2 way tie 5th(5.5), a 7th, an average ranking of 3.4per person

Movement-5 1sts, 3 2nds, a 2-way tie 4th(4.5), a 7th, an average ranking of 2.25 per person

Mental-1 1st, 4 2nds, a 5-way tie 2nd(4), a 3rd, a 4th, a 7th, avg. of ranking of 3.0 per person

Net play-8 3rds, a 2-way tie 5th(5.5), a 7th, an average ranking of 3.65 per person


Out of 7 people the middle ranking per category is 4th so I was pretty happy to see that Federer was below the average ranking of 4.0 in every category, 1.7 in one which is the highest, 2.3 in another which might be highest or second highest, 3.0 in 3 categories which could be the second or third highest, and 3.4 and 3.65 in the other 2 categores which is still below the 4.0 middle ranking.


However then I realized I was discounting my own because of possable extreme bias yet I was counting the category rankings of the two anti-Federer trolls on here-The Gorrilla and the Anointed One. So I decided to redo Federer's ranking average without those two.

Forehand-8 1sts, an average ranking of 1.0 per person(as opposed to 1.7 with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Backhand-2 1sts, 4 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, an average ranking of 2.1 per person(as opposed to 3.0 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Serve-6 2nds, a 3rd, an average ranking of 2.1 per person(as opposed to 3.0 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Return-1 1st, a 2-way tie 2nd(2.5), 6 3rds, an average ranking of 2.75 per person(as opposed to the average ranking of 3.4 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Movement-5 1sts, 3 2nds, an average ranking of 1.4 per person(as opposed to an average ranking of 2.25 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Mental-1 1st, 4 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, an average ranking of 2.3 per person(as opposed to an average ranking of 3.0 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Net play-8 3rds, an average ranking of 3.0 per person(as opposed to an average ranking of 3.65 per person with the 2 anti Fed trolls)

Now Fed goes to an unaminous 1st place in forehands with a 1.0, an overall first place in movement with a 1.4, an almost unaminous second place in serve with a 2.1, a close to 2nd place average of 2.1 on backhand and 2.3 on mental game which might be in the running for 1st overall ranking, and a just below 3rd place average ranking of 2.75 on return, with the worst being an unaminous 3rd on the net game.

Without the 2 Federer trolls who ruined Roger's deserved rankings I am very pleased with how you have slated him so far.

The Gorilla
02-23-2007, 03:25 AM
I have to disagree. Federe and McEnroe both get the nod over Borg and Lendl, imo.


I'd change that to Agassi at number 2, Federer #3, and Lendl at 5 behind Borg.


I would put Federer first, then Sampras, then Lendl, followed by the rest.

I give the slight nod to Agassi here. Federer's variation on the backhand has to put him near the top as well.





McEnroe should ofcourse be number one, but I have to disagree with Borg at number two. He was solid, but he would be 4th imo. No way Lendl is as good a volleyer as Federer. His poor volleying skills is one of the main reasons he never won Wimbledon. So I'd put Sampras at number two, followed by Federer and Borg, then Connors, followed by Lendl and Agassi.



I have no problems with Borg and Connors at the top of the list, but no way was McEnroe stronger mentally then Sampras and Federer. He's 5th on this list at best.



federer and mcenroe didn't get half the aces or hit the ball half as hard as lendl, Borg quite clearly served bigger than mcenroe at the time.


Agassi was no good at putting the ball back into play.Borg wasn't a a paticularly great returner.Lendl was an incredible returner, he could hit amazing angles against serve and volleyers.


I disagree about the federer/lendl forehand comparison but you are entitled to your opinion.

Agassi had a two handed backhand, given his relatative slowness this ultimately held him back.Federer's backhand was less powerful and less consistant than lendl's.

Borg won 5 wimbledon's serve and volleying approximately 60-70% of the time, Federer won 0 wimbledons serving and volleying, He got bet by Tim and Goran as I recall.Lendl got to two Wimbledon Finals serving and volleying and was a very consistant competetitor at Wimbledon over the years, serving and volleying off both serves.Pete Sampras was a very average volleyer with an incredible serve.

In 1984 MCenroe was mentally stronger than either of these guys.

capriatifanatic
02-23-2007, 03:49 AM
federer and mcenroe didn't get half the aces or hit the ball half as hard as lendl, Borg quite clearly served bigger than mcenroe at the time.

Agassi was no good at putting the ball back into play.Borg wasn't a a paticularly great returner.Lendl was an incredible returner, he could hit amazing angles against serve and volleyers.

I disagree about the federer/lendl forehand comparison but you are entitled to your opinion.

Agassi had a two handed backhand, given his relatative slowness this ultimately held him back.Federer's backhand was less powerful and less consistant than lendl's.

Borg won 5 wimbledon's serve and volleying approximately 60-70% of the time, Federer won 0 wimbledons serving and volleying, He got bet by Tim and Goran as I recall.Lendl got to two Wimbledon Finals serving and volleying and was a very consistant competetitor at Wimbledon over the years, serving and volleying off both serves.Pete Sampras was a very average volleyer with an incredible serve.

In 1984 MCenroe was mentally stronger than either of these guys.

Honestly are you for real? I cant read any of your posts without bursting out laughing.

The Gorilla
02-23-2007, 05:53 AM
Honestly are you for real? I cant read any of your posts without bursting out laughing.

no one cares what you think.

federerfanatic
02-23-2007, 07:31 AM
Serve:

1. Sampras
2T Lendl
2T Borg
4. mcEnroe
5. Federer


Return of Serve:

1. Connors
2. Lendl
3. Agassi
4. Borg
5T. Federer


Backhand:

1. Lendl
2. Borg
3T. Agassi
3T. Connors (very competetive category!)
5. McEnroe
6. Federer


Net play:

1. McEnroe
2. Borg
3T.Sampras
3T. Connors
5T.Federer
5T. Lendl


I just noticed these and looked at them closer, omigod you are nuts! Lendl the best backhand!!! Borg better at the net then Sampras and Federer!?!
Federer even below McEnroe on the backhand side!?!?! Lendl a better return of serve then Agassi, Connors, and Federer, Federer only tied with Sampras on the return of serve!!! Lendl and Borg better servers then Federer and McEnroe??? Could I try some of what your smoking, I am sure the sensation of being that high and feeling that fuzzy headed a sensation afterwords is kewl dude! :p

MTF07
02-23-2007, 10:54 AM
Clearly winning matches helps mental strength but it is not the only thing. I view Federer as mentally strong, but not the strongest in the last 25 years (as the fanatic argues).

This I can agree with. As to who's the greatest mentally, I would have to say Borg; although he did struggle with the conditions at the US Open.

ctbmar
02-24-2007, 06:39 AM
Very Sad that Edberg (6 Majors), Becker (6 Majors) & Wilander (7 Majors) are not in the list of best players for the last 25 years.
I don't want to indicate "tie" because it will be meaningless to have ties, even sprint race can determine a winner by a hundredth of a second. So I will indicate points to show how close the differences between the positions.

So my top 10 will be as such:

Serve:

1. Sampras (10.0 pts)
2. Federer (9.5 pts)
3. Becker (9.3 pts)
4. McEnroe (9.1 pts)
5. Edberg (9.0 pts)
6. Lendl (8.9 pts)
7. Agassi (8.5 pts)
8. Borg (8.1 pts)
9. Connors (8.0 pts)
10. Wilander (7.9 pts)


Return of Serve:

1. Federer (10.0 pts)
2. Agassi (9.9 pts)
3. Connors (9.8 pts)
4. Borg (9.5 pts)
5. McEnroe (8.8 pts)
6. Sampras (8.7 pts)
7. Lendl (8.6 pts)
8. Becker (8.5 pts)
9. Wilander (8.4 pts)
10. Edberg (8.3 pts)


Forehand:

1. Federer (10.0 pts)
2. Lendl (9.5 pts)
3. Agassi (9.1 pts)
4. Sampras (9.0 pts)
5. Borg (8.6 pts)
6. Becker (8.5 pts)
7. Wilander (8.3 pts)
8. Connors (8.0 pts)
9. McEnroe (7.5 pts)
10. Edberg (7.0 pts)


Backhand:

1. Federer (9.5 pts)
2. Edberg (9.4 pts)
3. Connors (9.3 pts)
4. Agassi (9.1 pts)
5. Borg (9.0 pts)
6. Lendl (8.9 pts)
7. McEnroe (8.7 pts)
8. Becker (8.6 pts)
9. Sampras (8.5 pts)
10. Wilander (8.3 pts)


Overall movement:

1. Federer (10.0 pts)
2. Borg (9.9 pts)
3. McEnroe (9.8 pts)
4. Edberg (9.6 pts)
5. Sampras (9.5 pts)
6. Agassi (9.3 pts)
7. Wilander (9.2 pts)
8. Connors (9.1 pts)
9. Lendl (9.0 pts)
10. Becker (8.5 pts)


Net play:

1. McEnroe (9.8 pts)
2. Edberg (9.7 pts)
3. Sampras (9.5 pts)
4. Federer (9.4 pts)
5. Becker (9.3 pts)
6. Borg (8.8 pts)
7. Agassi (8.6 pts)
8. Lendl (8.5 pts)
9. Connors (8.0 pts)
10. Wilander (7.8 pts)


Mental game:

1. Borg (10.0 pts)
2. Federer (9.9 pts)
3. Connors (9.8 pts)
4. Sampras (9.5 pts)
5. Lendl (9.4 pts)
6. Agassi (9.2 pts)
7. Wilander (9.1 pts)
8. McEnroe (9.0 pts)
9. Edberg (8.6 pts)
10. Becker (8.5 pts)

So my G.O.A.T List based on the 7 Categories & pts allocated:
1. Federer (68.3 pts)
2. Sampras (64.7 pts)
3. Borg (63.9 pts)
4. Agassi (63.7 pts)
5. Lendl (62.8 pts)
6. McEnroe (62.7 pts)
7. Connors (62.0 pts)
8. Edberg (61.6 pts)
9. Becker (61.2 pts)
10. Wilander (59.0 pts)

The Gorilla
02-24-2007, 06:49 AM
Very Sad that Edberg (6 Majors), Becker (6 Majors) & Wilander (7 Majors) are not in the list of best players for the last 25 years.

this is a g.o.a.t list.

The Gorilla
02-24-2007, 07:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rKeY6jseSs

go fullscreen

federerfanatic
02-27-2007, 02:32 AM
Looking over your choices it is obvious Federer is hated and disrespected on these boards and it makes me very sad to see a large group of people dont see that he is a great player. It is truly sad to see this and you all are missing out by believing he is some mediocre player which he is so much more then.

Overall it looks like almost all of you had Federer first in the forehand but you did not have a _____ below your Federer: 1. forehand, and the next person. Almost all of you have Federer 2nd in the serve behind Sampras. Then almost all of you have Federer 3rd in the return of serve behind Agassi and Connors. Most of you have Federer 3rd in net game behind Sampras and McEnroe. Most of you had Federer 2nd in backhand behind Agassi and over Connors, with several of you rating him #1 on the backhand over Agassi, and a few #3 below Connors, but on average 2nd between them. Most of you had Federer 1st in overall movement, with a few having him 2nd behind Borg. On mental game he flucuated between 1st and 4th, with Sampras, Connors, and Borg being the others who flucuated in that range in that category, probably he was overall 2nd behind Borg on that ranking by you.

So I see that Federer is totally disrespected on these boards which frusterates me to see, you dont have to like him but respect him, he isnt some mediocre nothing. According to your overall rankings Federer has a very good but not that great of a forehand, pretty good overall movement but not special, a so so serve, a so so backhand, a weak net game, a weak return of serve, and a mediocre mental game. He is much better then that and I look forward to him proving all you haters wrong in the next 6 years. GO FED GO!

The Gorilla
02-27-2007, 09:47 AM
Looking over your choices it is obvious Federer is hated and disrespected on these boards and it makes me very sad to see a large group of people dont see that he is a great player. It is truly sad to see this and you all are missing out by believing he is some mediocre player which he is so much more then.

Overall it looks like almost all of you had Federer first in the forehand but you did not have a _____ below your Federer: 1. forehand, and the next person. Almost all of you have Federer 2nd in the serve behind Sampras. Then almost all of you have Federer 3rd in the return of serve behind Agassi and Connors. Most of you have Federer 3rd in net game behind Sampras and McEnroe. Most of you had Federer 2nd in backhand behind Agassi and over Connors, with several of you rating him #1 on the backhand over Agassi, and a few #3 below Connors, but on average 2nd between them. Most of you had Federer 1st in overall movement, with a few having him 2nd behind Borg. On mental game he flucuated between 1st and 4th, with Sampras, Connors, and Borg being the others who flucuated in that range in that category, probably he was overall 2nd behind Borg on that ranking by you.

So I see that Federer is totally disrespected on these boards which frusterates me to see, you dont have to like him but respect him, he isnt some mediocre nothing. According to your overall rankings Federer has a very good but not that great of a forehand, pretty good overall movement but not special, a so so serve, a so so backhand, a weak net game, a weak return of serve, and a mediocre mental game. He is much better then that and I look forward to him proving all you haters wrong in the next 6 years. GO FED GO!



what makes federer great isn't that he is the absolute best at everything, but that he's in the top 3.Blake and Moya have equally good maybe even better forehands, Nadal is faster, tim henman volleys better,Karlovic serves better, Youzhny has abetter backhand.He's not the best at everything but he's so close that his game adds up to about 20 times everyone elses.

federerfanatic
02-27-2007, 09:56 AM
Nadal faster? I dont agree but possible. Henman better volleys? In his prime possible, today no. Blake or Moya better forehands? Hell no, Federer is better then Blake or Moya in any shot even their best, the reason Blake will never come close to beating Federer is his best shot by far is his forehand and Federer has the best forehand ever and a much better forehand. Youzhny a better backhand? No way, Youzhny is weaker then Federer in everything too.

The Gorilla
02-27-2007, 09:58 AM
You are not clever my friend ;)

federerfanatic
02-27-2007, 10:06 AM
You are a fool my non-friend, if you deem me not clever I take that as a compliment since if you thought I was clever I would be worried about how ridiculous things I must be saying to get your approval, thankfully I dont.

Look at your ridiculous rankings, mine might be biased to Federer some but yours are pathetic. Lendl #1 in the backhand, and #2 in the return of serve, only a complete fool would ever rank that. Lendl being over Agassi in both backhand and return of serve, LOL! Notice how everyone else had him almost last in both. Saying Sampras in his early years had a much better backhand then Federer, and that having an equal backhand to Edberg is the same as having you have a much better backhand then Federer is just as ridiculous.

If you ask any expert in the game who has the best forehand today they will tell you Federer, you wont hear anyone say Blake or Moya. The forehand is their best shot and Federer dominates both off their same best shot every time he has played them the last 3 years so get a clue.

The Gorilla
02-27-2007, 10:13 AM
You are a fool my non-friend, if you deem me not clever I take that as a compliment since if you thought I was clever I would be worried about how ridiculous things I must be saying to get your approval, thankfully I dont.

Look at your ridiculous rankings, mine might be biased to Federer some but yours are pathetic. Lendl #1 in the backhand, and #2 in the return of serve, only a complete fool would ever rank that. Lendl being over Agassi in both backhand and return of serve, LOL! Notice how everyone else had him almost last in both. Saying Sampras in his early years had a much better backhand then Federer, and that having an equal backhand to Edberg is the same as having you have a much better backhand then Federer is just as ridiculous.

If you ask any expert in the game who has the best forehand today they will tell you Federer, you wont hear anyone say Blake or Moya. The forehand is their best shot and Federer dominates both off their same best shot every time he has played them the last 3 years so get a clue.



The shot itself is not better than Moya's.

sandy mayer
03-21-2007, 03:21 PM
Taking racquets into consideration and giving 4 categories for mental toughness, the biggest criteria for separating great players, given that tecnical differences aren't that great.

Serve
1. Sampras
2. McEnroe
3. Federer
4. Lendl
5. Borg
6. Agassi
7. Connors

Return of serve
1. Connors
2. Agassi
3. Federer
4. Mcenroe
5. Lendl
6. Borg
7. Sampras

Net play
1. McEnroe
2. Sampras
3. Connors
4. Federer
5. Borg
6. Lendl
7. Agassi

Forehand
1. Federer
2. Lendl
3= Sampras, Agassi
5 Borg
6 Connors
7 McEnroe

Backhand
1. Connors
2. Agassi
3 Federer
4 Borg
5 McEnroe
6 Sampras
7 Lendl

Movement
1. Borg
2= Connors, McEnroe, Sampras, Federer
6 Lendl
7 Agassi

Stamina
1. Borg
2= Lendl, Agassi (later career)
4 Connors
5 Federer
6= McEnroe, Sampras

Mental toughness in close matches:
1 Sampras
2. Borg
3. Federer
4. Connors
5. McEnroe
6. Agassi
7. Lendl

Mental toughness when behind:
1. Borg
2. Connors
3. Agassi
4. Sampras
5. Lendl
6. McEnroe
7. Federer (not really tested!)

Mental toughness as a frontrunner:
1. Federer (incredible)
2. Sampras
3. Connors
4. Borg
5. Agassi
6. Lendl
7. McEnroe

Mental toughness on the very biggest occasions:
1. Sampras
2. Federer
3. Borg
4. McEnroe
5. Connors
6. Agassi
7. Lendl

Benhur
04-28-2007, 05:14 PM
nice list, but Sampras had a better backhand and forehand than Mac.:)
Lendl would not be a #1 for me in the mental department. I would rate him last. Sampras or Fed at #1. Mac should be higher.

You can see it the other way around. For about 8 years, from 1982 to 1990, Lendl's winning percentage is probably the highest of any player in a similar period. And 8 years is about the limit of a players top form. You cannot achieve such consistency without extraordinary concentration. During his very best years (1984-88) I saw countless Lendl matches against top opponents where he barely made any unforced errors at all. And mind you he was not just putting the ball back in play waiting for a mistake by his opponent. He was blasting his opponents off the court from the baseline through sheer power and shotmaking ability, with a smaller racket than most of them. Based on his winning percentage record, the number of weeks as number 1, number of turnaments won, and number of Grand Slam titles, finals and semifinals reached, he probably has no equal. He is in many ways the most underrated of the top players of all time. That being said, I agree he was a bit robotic. But boy could he play! And could he concentrate! Sure he lost a lot of finals. But, other than Cash, he lost them all to other giants at their best. The notion that his mental game was weak is ludicrous.

breakfast_of_champions
04-28-2007, 06:19 PM
how bout a guy who attempted suicide as the #1 mental player?

now suppose connors had mcenroes serve?

CyBorg
04-28-2007, 09:13 PM
how bout a guy who attempted suicide as the #1 mental player?

Baseless rumour.

breakfast_of_champions
04-28-2007, 09:25 PM
Baseless rumour.

could be, although he did leave the game at an early age because of mental fatigue.

SoBad
04-28-2007, 09:28 PM
This discussion lacks serious scientific analysis.

breakfast_of_champions
04-28-2007, 09:41 PM
This discussion lacks serious scientific analysis.


you mean physics, dynamics, and forensics?

SoBad
04-28-2007, 09:46 PM
Well I would think that firstly player selection criteria would need to be defined, and then some sort of a mathematical calculation would need to be performed, taking into account the different aspects of the different players' serves. I am tempted to take on the task, but the top servers' list might look different from what's presented in this thread, if the entire universe of players is evaluated objectively.

CyBorg
04-28-2007, 09:47 PM
could be, although he did leave the game at an early age because of mental fatigue.

mental fatigue = suicide!

JohnMatrix
04-29-2007, 05:55 PM
Agassi should be @ the top of the returners list, he dealt with players who hit 130+ all day and if im not mistaken he returned a roddick 151 mph serve

The Gorilla
04-29-2007, 07:01 PM
^^
when ?

TheNatural
04-30-2007, 11:10 AM
From 90-92 Edberg beat Lendl 8 of their last 11 including 4 out of their last 5 slam finals, so His mental game wasnt too good at that time. By then Edberg well and truly had Lendl's measure. Edberg was around 24 by then. Lendl was around 30, but I don't think lendl's game dropped off due to his age as he reached all those finals, but Edberg was just a bit more talented. I remember watching a lot of these wins. Edberg made lendl come up with pass after pass, and and often the pressure was too much and he'd faulter when it counted.

You can see it the other way around. For about 8 years, from 1982 to 1990, Lendl's winning percentage is probably the highest of any player in a similar period. And 8 years is about the limit of a players top form. You cannot achieve such consistency without extraordinary concentration. During his very best years (1984-88) I saw countless Lendl matches against top opponents where he barely made any unforced errors at all. And mind you he was not just putting the ball back in play waiting for a mistake by his opponent. He was blasting his opponents off the court from the baseline through sheer power and shotmaking ability, with a smaller racket than most of them. Based on his winning percentage record, the number of weeks as number 1, number of turnaments won, and number of Grand Slam titles, finals and semifinals reached, he probably has no equal. He is in many ways the most underrated of the top players of all time. That being said, I agree he was a bit robotic. But boy could he play! And could he concentrate! Sure he lost a lot of finals. But, other than Cash, he lost them all to other giants at their best. The notion that his mental game was weak is ludicrous.

OrangeOne
04-30-2007, 12:42 PM
From 90-92 Edberg beat Lendl 8 of their last 11 including 4 out of their last 5 slam finals,

For the years before that, Lendl dominated the head-to-head, which finished at 13-14. Edberg was 6 years younger, you expect the younger legend to beat the older legend as the older legend reaches the end of their career. Same thing happened with Lendl and Pete. Same with Agassi and Fed, etc etc.

Lendl retired after the UO in 1994, and only made one final (in the January) of that year. So 1992, for example, was his 3rd last year on tour.

He joined the Tour in 1978. He was on the tour for 17 years, and you're suggesting in years 13, 14 & 15 he hadn't started to wane a little?

so His mental game wasnt too good at that time. He was getting older, full stop. Why you're using this example to show a weak mental game, I'll never know. Want to see a strong mental game? see the example at the end of my post.

By then Edberg well and truly had Lendl's measure. Edberg was around 24 by then. Lendl was around 30, but I don't think lendl's game dropped off due to his age as he reached all those finals, but Edberg was just a bit more talented. So was Edberg more talented, or was it Lendl's mental failings? In your book, it seems one or the other, in mine... Lendl was reaching the end of a 17 year career.

From atptennis.com - Lendl's Singles Record:
1071 - 239
Oh - Lendl - mentally weak? In his entire career, over a 17 year period, he won more than 4 out of every 5 matches he played. That includes his early years as a youngster, and his later years when waning. More than 4 out of every five! Shows a fair bit of strength in every direction if you ask me.

maxply
05-01-2007, 03:46 PM
Having seen all of them play this is my 2 cents


serve
1.Sampras=great 1st&2nd
2.Mcenroe=nasty left slice
3federer=great all round
4.borg=great 1st serve 2nd ball could land short.
5. Lendl-can get shaky under pressure
6.agassi=solid
7.conners-lefty-not great pace


4 hand
1.Federer=great all around
2.sampras=explosive flatish ,
3.Borg-LENDL tie borg more steady lendl a bit more power
5.agassi -Really just as good
6 mcEnroe=conners said the most underated shot in tennis
7.Conners=a very good shot but for this list last place


Got 2 go will finish later

kaiotic
05-02-2007, 06:51 PM
I think Federer is a great server ... and often an underrated one. He undoubtedly has one of the most effective serves in the game today. But there is no way in hell it should be rated higher than Sampras's. true.

Becker's serve is not to shabby either.
probably the only player to open up a match with four straight aces.
see 1996 Masters Cup Final - Hanover, Germany (Becker v. Sampras)
classic!

two heavy weights going at ti.. served and volleyed, baseline rallies
sick sick sick!