aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrggggggghhhh

[sigep1967]

Not sure if this is the right place as it is a rant with a request for advice thrown in. I am ranked as a 3.0 but hate playing against other 3.0 people in this area!!!! Most are older and all they do is chip short or lob and the number of framed winners if ridiculous. Played doubles in league play last nite and got out dinked once again. It is really frustrating tennis to me. When I play guys that cam actually make a stroke and hit the ball I play much better and feel like I am actually playing tennis. I really think I just get disgusted and mainly bored which makes me lose focus and not even care if I win or not. One of the points last nite was 7 lobs in a row between my partner and the other guy :confused: :confused: I really can't stand that sort of play. I don't mind loseing to someone who hits the ball but really get disgusted playing these dinkers. This is the second loss of the season against these type of players:mad: :mad: After the match was over I plyed agaist two 3.5 players one of which is close to a 4.0 with a guy I have never played with before who is a solid but not great 3.5 and we played a very good competitive match losing two sets in tiebreaks but it sure was fun actually playing tennis. Do any of you guys have problems focusing against the dinkers? I am really bummed out about playing the whole season against this kind of crappy tennis.

[kevhen]

Seven 3.0 level lobs in a row and you aren't able to jump in and smash one of them? Mentally you are still 3.0. Keep working at it and you will advance to 3.5 where you will run into some even better 3.5 pushers. Once you get mentally strong enough to last against them, you can play 4.0 tennis where strokes get fuller.

Just play against hitters if you dislike pushers (not that it will help your overall game that much, but do what you enjoy).

[Peter Szucs]

Not sure if this is the right place as it is a rant with a request for advice thrown in. I am ranked as a 3.0 but hate playing against other 3.0 people in this area!!!! Most are older and all they do is chip short or lob and the number of framed winners if ridiculous. Played doubles in league play last nite and got out dinked once again. It is really frustrating tennis to me. When I play guys that cam actually make a stroke and hit the ball I play much better and feel like I am actually playing tennis. I really think I just get disgusted and mainly bored which makes me lose focus and not even care if I win or not. One of the points last nite was 7 lobs in a row between my partner and the other guy :confused: :confused: I really can't stand that sort of play. I don't mind loseing to someone who hits the ball but really get disgusted playing these dinkers. This is the second loss of the season against these type of players:mad: :mad: After the match was over I plyed agaist two 3.5 players one of which is close to a 4.0 with a guy I have never played with before who is a solid but not great 3.5 and we played a very good competitive match losing two sets in tiebreaks but it sure was fun actually playing tennis. Do any of you guys have problems focusing against the dinkers? I am really bummed out about playing the whole season against this kind of crappy tennis.

I am 4.5 and completely with you. These guys usually live from my power, blocking balls back, lob as a regular stroke and wait for my errors and at the end of the day they enjoy this agony while i suffer like hell. I end up in pieces even if i manage to win. I now try to avoid these players and try to play against people from who i can learn.

[drakulie]

If you can't stand playing these type of players just keep practicing so you could get out out of that level, and on to the 4.0 level. However, there are players like the ones you mentioned in all levels of play.

Like Kehven said, you need to work on the mental side of the game as well.

Good luck.

[sigep1967]

I smashed every lob I could reach most of the lobs ver very high and deep. They are very good at this shot as it is all the hell they know how to do. What really pisses me off is the fact in the last 2 matches against these type players we have been victem to 13 framed volley winners and 4 framed "lob" winners where we would stick a good volley that they would throw a frame at catch a piece on the frame and it would just barely go over our heads. I guess the most frustrating thing is taking their serves. Last nite both of these guys had Cannonball first serves but lol they got exactly 6 in all nite the second serves would be dinks barely clearing the net and not bouncing high enough to do any thing with but push it back and wait for the lob you knew was coming. I guess I am just not good enough to take a serve at a full run to inside the service box and be able to to anything with it.

[kevhen]

If they dink their second serves then start out close to the service line so you don't have to be on the run when contacting the return. Are you trying to overhit their weak serves? Just place them back deep (just get them in!) but don't try to crush them. Getting past 3.0 is about consistency.

Don't get too close to the net to where they can lob you easily. Stand closer to the service line and then move forward against their weak passing shots and work on your overhead.

If they are hitting that many framed winners against you in 3.0 doubles, your court positioning may be a weakness too. There are some good doubles books that talk about court positioning.

[Supernatural_Serve]

one of the ways you know you've moved up a level is when the Pushers from the previous level aren't a problem anymore. They're a good test.

The players who give you pace, spin, and angles are a different kind of test, or heavy serve/volleyers are yet another different kind of test.

Sounds like you are still 3.0 even if you've got some other solid skills when confronting other styles of play.

You've got to figure out the Pushers weaknesses, protect your own weaknesses (especially overhitting and lazy footwork), pressure them with your skills, settled down and focus to beat them. Its a lot more mental.

Think of it as a different kind of challenge with a different mental approach to the match.

We all know. They are aggravating and irritating and quite frankly throw in some gamesmanship on their part and they are down right exhausting.

You've got to get match tough against these types of players.

[sigep1967]

Oh I am definately a 3.0 mainly because my serve downright sucks ;) .I practice my serve alot and hit it great when practicing but usually can't serve worth a **** in play. I have very powerful groundstrokes and good net play just have never been able to serve well. Even when I played in high school I was a doubles player relying on strong strokes and quick hands at the net the serve was just to get me to the net ;) . I know it is a mental thing where I just don't even want to play this kind of tennis and I will just have to work though it as it is so boring to me. i don't mind finesse shots like good droppers or a good topspin lob but this dinking drives me nuts. oh well I will just have to work through it but would almost just rather not play.

[Bagumbawalla]

Look at it from the other point of view. Here are some old geezers running you around and chipping and lobbing you to death- thinking, "This guy says he is a 3.0, but, really he doesn't belong in out league".

The fact is, it's EASY to play against players who hit the ball how you like it and where you like it. If you have trouble against the kind of player you just described, it means your own game is weak and your strokes are too shakey/unreliable to create your own pace and take charge of the game.

You need to work on all of your basics. When you have absolute confidence in your stroke technique, strategy, and footwork then you will completely dominate this kind of player. And then you will advance to the next level, where the competition is REALLY tough.

Good luck,

B

[fuzz nation]

You're in an evil catch-22 there amigo. Often times, I've had to be humble and concentrate on where I'm at instead of where I belong. If that's the only style of competitive tennis you can get in on right now, then you need to refocus on the things that you can control when you're on the court. A serious step toward the next level is putting together a serve you can rely on to start a point. This means landing it with placement and a little spin to the receiver's forehand or backhand side (or into their body). Don't worry about the heater too much until this starts coming together.

People always want to get together and play, but this rarely means working out and grinding. Matches are certainly good for getting comfortable in that situation, but you can only bring what you know and that can only be developed on the practice court. Seek hitting partners and take an occasional lesson so that you don't get really bad habits too ingrained - they're hard to un-learn. It's also a good measuring stick to occasionally play someone that's soundly better than you because you can gather a heightened sense of your strengths and weaknesses.

I've learned great things from books and not just ones by tennis gurus. Sports psychologists can share ideas on how to manage your head in just about every situation and the tennis pros also understand brain control as it relates to the game. With a good grasp of different tactics for different opponents (including lobbers), you'll have a good idea of what you need to improve among your skills. Keep the classroom open on and off the court.

[sigep1967]

Interesting Bag i get to play against my future brother in law who is a solid 4.0-4.5 every now and then and he laughs and tells me i am sandbagging at 3.0 because I play him very tough and my reply is well i can't seem to beat the dinkers to move up. I really think it is more of a mental thing where i just get disgusted and quit playing hard. It just isn't fun to me I guess. I know I need to work on footwork but in my defense I am 40 with two sore knees and a sore back:-( just don't move like I used to. We have the ultimate pusher on our team and I have played him several times before and he usually beat me due to me just not being interesting in playing but the last few times I have handed him bad defeats by staying focused and just plain out hitting him I play on two teams a 3.5 and 3.0 on the 3.5 there are several 3.0 like myself who are playing up so the 3.5 guys can have a league and these are the guys I am playing. There are two teams from the same city which is like us 3.0's playing up for the sake of a few 3.5's. What is funny is all of those guys play the same chop style tennis except for 2 of them. When we played last night I watched their highschool and they all played that way too. Hopefully I can overcome this aversion of this style of tennis and play well enough to move up but I am afraid I will be facing more of the same :confused: after moving up. Unfortunately I live in a tennis deprived area and don't have much choice in where or who I play as this is the only game in town.

[Cindysphinx]

What really pisses me off is the fact in the last 2 matches against these type players we have been victem to 13 framed volley winners and 4 framed "lob" winners where we would stick a good volley that they would throw a frame at catch a piece on the frame and it would just barely go over our heads.

If they're getting frame winners, maybe your positioning is off. Either you're not closing the net when you get them under pressure so the frame winner lands unplayed in front of you, or your depth is off such that you're closer to the net than you have earned the right to be.

I guess the most frustrating thing is taking their serves. Last nite both of these guys had Cannonball first serves but lol they got exactly 6 in all nite the second serves would be dinks barely clearing the net and not bouncing high enough to do any thing with but push it back and wait for the lob you knew was coming.

Where's your drop shot? Stand close, drop it back over the net in front of the server, and watch it fall unplayed or watch the huge collision. Or stand close and rip the return for an angled winner.

I guess I am just not good enough to take a serve at a full run to inside the service box and be able to to anything with it.

There's nothing that requires you to stand back for a dink second serve and hit it at a full run. Get yourself up to the service line and put the thing away.

[Mountain Ghost]

Whatever “crappy tennis” you think you are playing against, you must be playing CRAPPIER tennis! On top of that, being bummed, disgusted, bored and not caring if you win or lose are sure signs of a TRUE loser.

The so called “dinkers” are simply better than you are. You can either work on having a better attitude, and focus on raising the level of your game, or you can keep whining . . . and keep losing.

MG

[sigep1967]

Cindy on the frame winners it is usually after a hard groundstroke into a their body that comes off at a weird angle or netcords had 4 of those in one nite in the last match. The guy was fairly weak at the net so I was blasting low hard shots and 4 different times framed winners. Really just bad luck more than anything just frustrating. On the serve thing It is quite comical like they practice this senario over and over and since it is the way they play I am sure they are better at it than me. When you hit the dropper you get back an almost perfect lob everytime. They are used to this I guess and seem to know you can't do anything else with the serve. I really aplaud their skill at this but it is frustrating. I actuall was trying to take one of their serves 1 step behind the service line but the hit the serves with backspin and so they rarely bounce high enough to rip. I tried pushing them back with just a controlled shot to the basline but once again here comes a perfect high lob higher than the lights to land right on the baseline. I am not taking anything away from them as they play this style of tennis very well it is just frustrating to me to play that way and just no fun. I would rather someone blast shots that tear the racquet out of my hand than chase down lobs all nite. Like I said before it is a mental thing for me to get over. Two of these guys have the funkeist serve you have ever seen. It is and overhead underhanded serve they tosss the ball up but side swipe it with an open face giving it wicked side spin and backspin making it just almost hug the ground. I even tried to hit some in practice just to see if I could do it and I could never reproduce the same action.

[Doc Hollidae]

Even at the 4.0-4.5 level I still encounter players like that. It's frustrating as hell, but 90% of them have terrible backhands and struggle with heavy topspin that kicks up to their shoulders. They also tend to be terrible at the net and are easily passed or fail to handle pace at the net. The best thing you can do is have patience and just keep the ball deep and probably to the backhand side, especially if it's a one hander (at lower levels). It's boring and feels more like practice than a match, but it wins.

[urbanxy]

Part of your frustration is due to your feeling that "you should be winning against these players". My game is 3.0 level as well and I struggle against pusher-type players, mostly due to unforced errors and mental breakdown (I get super angry against the pusher in my league, but never against anyone else). Realize that these players have no offensive weapons to hurt you! Once you dedicate to improving your approach shots and net skills you will own them consistently. At least that's my hope. :-)

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy on the frame winners it is usually after a hard groundstroke into a their body that comes off at a weird angle or netcords had 4 of those in one nite in the last match. The guy was fairly weak at the net so I was blasting low hard shots and 4 different times framed winners. Really just bad luck more than anything just frustrating. On the serve thing It is quite comical like they practice this senario over and over and since it is the way they play I am sure they are better at it than me. When you hit the dropper you get back an almost perfect lob everytime. They are used to this I guess and seem to know you can't do anything else with the serve. I really aplaud their skill at this but it is frustrating. I actuall was trying to take one of their serves 1 step behind the service line but the hit the serves with backspin and so they rarely bounce high enough to rip. I tried pushing them back with just a controlled shot to the basline but once again here comes a perfect high lob higher than the lights to land right on the baseline. I am not taking anything away from them as they play this style of tennis very well it is just frustrating to me to play that way and just no fun. I would rather someone blast shots that tear the racquet out of my hand than chase down lobs all nite. Like I said before it is a mental thing for me to get over. Two of these guys have the funkeist serve you have ever seen. It is and overhead underhanded serve they tosss the ball up but side swipe it with an open face giving it wicked side spin and backspin making it just almost hug the ground. I even tried to hit some in practice just to see if I could do it and I could never reproduce the same action.


Hey, I'm 3.0 so I understand losing to players who in my estimation appear to stink. But if you're driving the ball at a net player who consistently gets the ball back, give them their due.

Regarding the preference for players who tear the racquet out of your hand . . . ya gotta learn to deal with junk too.

It's hard to believe that every one of their lobs were that good. It probably felt that way, but probably not. Maybe keep track next time of how many of their lobs come within inches of the baseline and how many are short enough to overhead or go out. And if you learn a good slice and get your volleys deep, they will find it awfully tough to lob effectively, I'll bet.

I understand the sentiment, though. At 3.0, I am well and truly sick of endless one-up, one-back with no one (especially my partner) ever coming to the net ever. Ever. But hey, all I can do is work on my own game and eventually I'll move up.

[Bagumbawalla]

Somewhere else, I wrote about the experience I had in my first tournament.

I thought I was pretty good. I had all the strokes, and confidence to burn. I entered a tournament called "The Dollar Tournament" because that's what I cost to enter. I assumed I would win the whole thing. The first (and, as it turns out, only) opponent I played looked to be about 70 years old. His arms and legs were wraped in ace bandages. Jokingly, I refered to him as "the mummy".

He never hit any ball with pace. He brought me to the net, then lobbed, then hit spin and dinks and dropshots, junk, and basically ran me ragged. I lost 6-0, 6-0.

The next week I went to a local "open" tournament and saw him do the same thing to the #1 player at from the state college team.

Just because you can play well with someone who hits the ball the way you like, does not make you a good player. Just because a guy hits junk, does not make him a poor player.

90 percent of everyone who has a questions, here, has a similar complaint. I have trouble against ___________ (fill in the blank)-- Players who use too much topspin, too much slice, force me to volley, hit to my backhand, overpower my serve, hit flat, keep the ball in play but have poor form....the list is endless.

The point is, unless your game is absolutely sound, you will have trouble against players who hit the ball in some way you do not like.

The remedy is always the same. Perfect your own game. Be able to hit any kind of shot from any player. If your game is completely sound, you don't have to worry about how they hit the ball (unless they just plain out play you).

We tend to practice with players that have a style we like, and that is unfortunate. I suggest that you try set some practice sessions with some of these slice/dicers and work on what it takes to master their style.

Good luck,

B

[JRstriker12]

Somewhere else, I wrote about the experience I had in my first tournament.

I thought I was pretty good. I had all the strokes, and confidence to burn. I entered a tournament called "The Dollar Tournament" because that's what I cost to enter. I assumed I would win the whole thing. The first (and, as it turns out, only) opponent I played looked to be about 70 years old. His arms and legs were wraped in ace bandages. Jokingly, I refered to him as "the mummy".

He never hit any ball with pace. He brought me to the net, then lobbed, then hit spin and dinks and dropshots, junk, and basically ran me ragged. I lost 6-0, 6-0.

The next week I went to a local "open" tournament and saw him do the same thing to the #1 player at from the state college team.

Just because you can play well with someone who hits the ball the way you like, does not make you a good player. Just because a guy hits junk, does not make him a poor player.

90 percent of everyone who has a questions, here, has a similar complaint. I have trouble against ___________ (fill in the blank)-- Players who use too much topspin, too much slice, force me to volley, hit to my backhand, overpower my serve, hit flat, keep the ball in play but have poor form....the list is endless.

The point is, unless your game is absolutely sound, you will have trouble against players who hit the ball in some way you do not like.

The remedy is always the same. Perfect your own game. Be able to hit any kind of shot from any player. If your game is completely sound, you don't have to worry about how they hit the ball (unless they just plain out play you).

We tend to practice with players that have a style we like, and that is unfortunate. I suggest that you try set some practice sessions with some of these slice/dicers and work on what it takes to master their style.

Good luck,

B

Amen, preach on!!!

I can't count the number of posts from players who degrade the opponents as weak or flawed, but give that opponent no respect when they lose.

The dinkers, pushers and junkballers are a tricky variety of player, and they play that way because at thier level it's effective and it wins games. Sure thay may not lay down the smack-down like Federer, but it's hard to complain when you can't beat them.

[kevhen]

The point is, unless your game is absolutely sound, you will have trouble against players who hit the ball in some way you do not like.

The remedy is always the same. Perfect your own game. Be able to hit any kind of shot from any player. If your game is completely sound, you don't have to worry about how they hit the ball (unless they just plain out play you).

We tend to practice with players that have a style we like, and that is unfortunate. I suggest that you try set some practice sessions with some of these slice/dicers and work on what it takes to master their style.

Good luck,

B

Good stuff. I have struggled with sliced balls or slow and steady balls to my backhand and still struggle some with low approach balls to my forehand so those are shots I work on and try to find opponents who can make me look bad so I can at least try to work on these weaknesses even if not always successful. But avoiding your weaknesses will not make you a better player.

[sigep1967]

You guys are misunderstanding me. i am frustrated by not winning against these guys. They have perfected this dink tennis that they play and I just can't play it as well as they do. I have not picked up a racquet in 21 years before this past summer. I know my game is not where it needs to be but for some weird reason i play better against guys who hit the ball hard and are real tough opponents. i know I have a crappy serve and work on it constantly it is mostly a poor toss and I know it just can't seem to get it right except in practice when I get in a rythem. These guys are great at what they do chopiing and lobbing i just can't play that style. Nothing at all taken away from them they are beating me I am just frustrated whith MYSELF at not doing well against people who can not even rally with me cause they cannot handle the pace but them beat me to death dinking it around and gennerally driving me nuts.

[Cindysphinx]

Pace isn't everything.

I think everyone understands (and has lost to such players). Everyone is saying "Learn to beat them."

They must have a weakness or they'd be number one in the world, right?

[TonLars]

Everyone needs to learn how to deal with "junk" because this happens at every level. Think of Fabrice Santoro, it is amazing how he competes at the top pro level despite the amount he slices and throws junk at the opponent. People can be good players when they play smart and do other things very well, even though their game isnt big or flashy. I played a 5.0 player in a practice match that is about 40 some years old last summer that I had never heard of before, and in the warmup I figured he would be an easy match. But the junk he was throwing at me is without a doubt different than what one normally sees, and I found myself down 3-0 before winning 6-4 6-2. I found out later he was a top player at Michigan State when he was younger.

You need to bear down and realize that youre losing to these players for a reason, and accept the challenge during the match rather than become mentally weak. You cant expect to win when you have that mentality. Also, who can you be pumped up to play and ready to go against, if you cant bring yourself to this state against people you lose to and say youre bored??

In practice, work on improving your game, and by analyzing what happens in these matches.

[mucat]

<snip>cause they cannot handle the pace but them beat me to death dinking it around and gennerally driving me nuts.

If they cannot handle the pace (your powerful groundstrokes?), how can they beat you to death by just dinking it around? Did they hit winners?

[OrangeOne]

in the last 2 matches against these type players we have been victem to 13 framed volley winners and 4 framed "lob" winners

Stop counting! I've sometimes came away from a match and noticed a 'netcord' that played on the other team.... but there you're counting framed winners? No wonder you're not winning / struggling - you're focussing on that which you cannot change. Count your winners, your errors, focus entirely on your stats for returning short/dinked serves... whatever - but stop focussing on the negative and counting that sort of statistic - it's only bound to get you down.

netcords had 4 of those in one nite in the last match. The guy was fairly weak at the net so I was blasting low hard shots and 4 different times framed winners. Really just bad luck more than anything just frustrating.

Or... just tennis. If you're blasting hard low shots - at any level - the opponents will frame winners. Sometimes framed winners were going to be winners anyways.

The question here: why keep 'blasting low hard shots'? Change your strategy... lob, hit down the middle, use as much spin as you can to put the ball at their feet.

When you hit the dropper you get back an almost perfect lob everytime. They are used to this I guess and seem to know you can't do anything else with the serve.

Well don't hit the dropper! If their serve is short, it's slow. So play a different shot. As everyone's said, move in to start with, and then hit back with depth? lob the net guy? pass the net guy? use as much angle as you can (short balls = angle). There has to be something your awesome groundstrokes can do against this puny serve. If there's not, then you need to learn how to play short put-away shots, you'll need them at any level!

[JRstriker12]

You guys are misunderstanding me. i am frustrated by not winning against these guys. They have perfected this dink tennis that they play and I just can't play it as well as they do. I have not picked up a racquet in 21 years before this past summer. I know my game is not where it needs to be but for some weird reason i play better against guys who hit the ball hard and are real tough opponents. i know I have a crappy serve and work on it constantly it is mostly a poor toss and I know it just can't seem to get it right except in practice when I get in a rythem. These guys are great at what they do chopiing and lobbing i just can't play that style. Nothing at all taken away from them they are beating me I am just frustrated whith MYSELF at not doing well against people who can not even rally with me cause they cannot handle the pace but them beat me to death dinking it around and gennerally driving me nuts.

No doubt dinkers will frustrate the heck out of you. They key is to figure out how to capitalize on thier dinky-ness. Patience is BIG part of that. If they dink enough, they will cough up a ball that you can kill, especially if you stay consistent and and hit solid and deep ground strokes.

Another weird truth is that in some cases it's easier to hit against better players because (must like your dinker opponents) you are feeding off thier pace that they generate. It's easier to hit a hard ball hard then change the pace up on a slow ball and hit it hard so that it goes in. - Actually, this is one of the reasons why dinking works, when you change pace or direction on a ball, you take a chance of making a error, where as if you just use the ball's pace and direction to get it back, it's easier to keep in play. Generating your own pace an keeping the ball in is a lot harder than you think.

One more point, you may think these guys can't rally with you, but I think you're underestimating your opponent. If they can't stay in a rally with you, then you should be able to beat these guys by keeping the ball in play.

[bad_call]

out junk the junkies. out crap the crappers. that's how i've beaten them in the past. it's not pretty but it works. in fact it downright reeks...

[Bagumbawalla]

Actually, I think we all understand EXACTLY what you are saying. Everyone here has been frustrated by this kind of player (or some other, equally frustrating) at some time or the other. And we ALL play better against people who hit the ball hard and to our comfort zone.

The way to get past it and become unfrustrated with yourself is to work on your game/skills until you actually look forward to playing against the kind of player you once found frustrating. Most of the answers you have been given are, I think, worth considering. Most of them involve doing a lot of work to beef up your game.

By the way, you don't have to play the same style (as they do) to beat the chopper/lobbers. In fact, I would discourage that idea. It is a style that will get you only so far. Notice most of the choppers/lobbers are kind of bunched up in the low/midddle levels. They thin out after that.

But, to get past them, you do have to have immaculate shot control, excellent movement and anticipation, good endurance, the ability to generate your own pace out of nothing, good court sense, the ability to place the ball well, pressure the opponent, take advantage of short/weak balls, mix up your game and (in doubles) play together as a single-minded team. In other words, you need to play a pretty standard game of percentage tennis, but at a higher standard than you are playing now, or they will break you down.

And your experience is not unique. I stopped playing tennis for about 15 years, myself, and just started back last year. I'm 55 and have had to work hard (harder than I thought) to be where I am, now. There are quite a few other's here with a similar story. So, you are not alone. We really do know exactly what you are saying.

Good luck,

B

[doggieboy]

We have all been there. However, 13 framed volleys winners seems like a lot...so maybe they were hanging on the net and a few more lobs from you could have moved them away? It's tougher to frame a volley for a winner from the service line. Do some situps/crunches and work on your overhead. I can tell you from experience that I lob less when my lobs are being murdered, I'll bet those boys will react the same way.

[sarpmas]

I think you are a typical baseline player. You have three glaring weakness:
1. Problem handling shots that are not within your strike zone.
2. Problem handling paceless shots that requires you to generate your own power.
3. Lazy footwork.
There are many great suggestions to solve your problems. Just do a search. Bagum is giving very good advice, by the way.

[sigep1967]

sarpmas now that is funny I hate baseline bashing although I can do it I much perfer the net game. As a matter of fact some of the guys i play with will back up after I come in because they do not know how to play 2 up or are not comfortable with it and it drives me nuts there is only one guy on my team that like the 2 up formation and when we play together we usually win because of it. Doggieboy i too was shocked at how many framed "winners" these guys get after the first set i started counting them just for comic relief. As far as hitting overheads I have no problem with that if I can reach them but it is kind of hard when almost every lob they hit is within a foot of the baseline. I know I have some big weakness right now Mental being the largest weak serve, bad movement and sometimes going for the winner too soon. Trying to work on the first two but i am afraid i am stuck with the bad movement especially up and back. Due to my knees side to side doesn't really bother me but the sudden stops up and back really hurt my knees for some reason. I am taking all advice as I hate losing and know I really need to work on the mental part so that I don't get disgusted and can grind it out agaisnt these guys. Also working on losing the extra 20 lbs I don't need so maybe my knees will fair a little better.

[sigep1967]

Well apparently I have learned a little we beat the dinkers last nite:smile: :smile: . But my god I hate playing that kind of tennis.