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Z-Man
03-05-2007, 05:02 PM
Last Saturday I drove 45 miles each way to play a league match at Green Island Country Club in Columbus, GA. Things kind of started off on the wrong foot when my opponent tried to rush me through the warmup. Some people need to hit more than one serve on each side before they play a match. Then, he complained when I sat down for 10 seconds to take one sip of water on the first changeover. I don’t care if that’s the rule or not—this isn’t the US Open. He also got agitated if I went back to the fence to get the third ball when he was serving--even though it did not disrupt play.

The first 3 games were pretty close, but I won them all. 10 minutes into the match, he was completely tanking. First, he hit little short balls for me to pound to the corners, but after that, he just stopped trying to hit the ball back unless I hit it right to him. I’d hit a 1st serve long, and he’d call in an ace. On set point (6-0), he caught my serve with his hand and complemented me on my game. Then he had the guts to tell me it was OK to sit down and take a little break between sets if I wanted to.

What a jerk! I think he was trying to get me bumped up to 4.5. Rather than testing his game against a stronger player, he decided to try to screw up my record by losing 6-0, 6-0. Tanking a game here and there to keep the computer happy is one thing, but it would never occur to me to go down 6-0, 6-0 to ruin someone else’s chance to play league tennis. There’s little or no league activity at 4.5, so if you’re bumped up—that’s it for you. I know—I just came back from a 3-year exile at 4.5. The guy has some wins over good players, so I know he can play. Instead of raising the level of his game, he just wasted one Saturday of my life.

10sfreak
03-05-2007, 05:08 PM
Now why would he do this? What's in it for him? I take it he doesn't know you, so it couldn't have been anything personal, right? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to figure out how this would benefit him...

Swissv2
03-05-2007, 05:13 PM
Take the win, and leave it at that. There is little to nothing you can do about another person's attitude on any particular day except comment about it or worse - start acting out your frustration.

Z-Man
03-05-2007, 06:39 PM
Now why would he do this? What's in it for him? I take it he doesn't know you, so it couldn't have been anything personal, right? I'm not doubting you, I'm just trying to figure out how this would benefit him...

I really think he figured that if he couldn't beat me, he would try to create a lopsided score that would result in me being DQ'd. I've never seen the guy before in my life. I was nice and tried to make small talk. I think he was trying to aggrivate me so I'd beat him worse.

The players at Green Island CC are known for their snotty attitudes and poor sportsmanship, but that kind of thing doesn't bother me--I'm used to it. However, this really threw me for a loop.

travlerajm
03-05-2007, 06:47 PM
Last Saturday I drove 45 miles each way to play a league match at Green Island Country Club in Columbus, GA. Things kind of started off on the wrong foot when my opponent tried to rush me through the warmup. Some people need to hit more than one serve on each side before they play a match. Then, he complained when I sat down for 10 seconds to take one sip of water on the first changeover. I don’t care if that’s the rule or not—this isn’t the US Open. He also got agitated if I went back to the fence to get the third ball when he was serving--even though it did not disrupt play.

The first 3 games were pretty close, but I won them all. 10 minutes into the match, he was completely tanking. First, he hit little short balls for me to pound to the corners, but after that, he just stopped trying to hit the ball back unless I hit it right to him. I’d hit a 1st serve long, and he’d call in an ace. On set point (6-0), he caught my serve with his hand and complemented me on my game. Then he had the guts to tell me it was OK to sit down and take a little break between sets if I wanted to.

What a jerk! I think he was trying to get me bumped up to 4.5. Rather than testing his game against a stronger player, he decided to try to screw up my record by losing 6-0, 6-0. Tanking a game here and there to keep the computer happy is one thing, but it would never occur to me to go down 6-0, 6-0 to ruin someone else’s chance to play league tennis. There’s little or no league activity at 4.5, so if you’re bumped up—that’s it for you. I know—I just came back from a 3-year exile at 4.5. The guy has some wins over good players, so I know he can play. Instead of raising the level of his game, he just wasted one Saturday of my life.

I think I know this guy. I had the same exact experience. There couldn't be two of them?

Jracer77
03-05-2007, 08:03 PM
You should have double-faulted a couple of service games away if you wanted the score to be closer.

10sguy
03-05-2007, 09:30 PM
(see previous posts below)

I'd STRONGLY urge you two to, first get together (offline), and then report the situations to your League Coordinator (or whatever they're called in your neck of the woods). That is ridiculous!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Man
Last Saturday I drove 45 miles each way to play a league match at Green Island Country Club in Columbus, GA. Things kind of started off on the wrong foot when my opponent tried to rush me through the warmup. Some people need to hit more than one serve on each side before they play a match. Then, he complained when I sat down for 10 seconds to take one sip of water on the first changeover. I don’t care if that’s the rule or not—this isn’t the US Open. He also got agitated if I went back to the fence to get the third ball when he was serving--even though it did not disrupt play.

The first 3 games were pretty close, but I won them all. 10 minutes into the match, he was completely tanking. First, he hit little short balls for me to pound to the corners, but after that, he just stopped trying to hit the ball back unless I hit it right to him. I’d hit a 1st serve long, and he’d call in an ace. On set point (6-0), he caught my serve with his hand and complemented me on my game. Then he had the guts to tell me it was OK to sit down and take a little break between sets if I wanted to.

What a jerk! I think he was trying to get me bumped up to 4.5. Rather than testing his game against a stronger player, he decided to try to screw up my record by losing 6-0, 6-0. Tanking a game here and there to keep the computer happy is one thing, but it would never occur to me to go down 6-0, 6-0 to ruin someone else’s chance to play league tennis. There’s little or no league activity at 4.5, so if you’re bumped up—that’s it for you. I know—I just came back from a 3-year exile at 4.5. The guy has some wins over good players, so I know he can play. Instead of raising the level of his game, he just wasted one Saturday of my life.

(First reply)

I think I know this guy. I had the same exact experience. There couldn't be two of them?

goober
03-06-2007, 04:38 AM
You should have double-faulted a couple of service games away if you wanted the score to be closer.


Yeah start tanking yourself if you are really worried about protecting your rating. Complaining to the league coordinator is not going to do anything. He could always say that you were sandbagging or way better than him.

Good thing this never happens in tournaments or if it ever did I would be happy to get to the next round with an easy victory.

Cindysphinx
03-06-2007, 05:24 AM
How come none of my opponents will take a dive?

Nah, I don't think it was personal. He was trying to lower his own rating.

Islandtennis
03-06-2007, 06:05 AM
If it makes you feel any better Z-man, love and love scores are thrown out by the Tennislink computer and will not effect your rating. They are considered a statistical anomaly. Now had you beat him 6-1, 6-1; your dynamic rating would have gone up.

oldguysrule
03-06-2007, 07:53 AM
If it makes you feel any better Z-man, love and love scores are thrown out by the Tennislink computer and will not effect your rating. They are considered a statistical anomaly. Now had you beat him 6-1, 6-1; your dynamic rating would have gone up.

close but not completely right (at least as I understand it)...Matches are thrown out by the computer when a) the dynamic NTRP differential between two players is so large that a competitive match is not expected, and b) the actual results of a match are inconsistent with what is expected from the dynamic NTRP differential between two players.

What you described may or may not occur depending on the differential between the two players.

Nick Irons
03-06-2007, 07:55 AM
45 Miles ? Jeez

-

Tennis man; the kookiest of them all.

goober
03-06-2007, 08:27 AM
45 Miles ? Jeez

-

Tennis man; the kookiest of them all.


Actually it is not that uncommon for those who play USTA leagues and tourneys to have to drive far distances. I know people who drive twice or thrice that far and stay over night at hotels to play in tournaments multiple times during the year.

Nick Irons
03-06-2007, 08:41 AM
You're right

I keep forgetting how my life 'used to be'

Commutting 40 some odd miles to work each way, meeting my bro at Bobby Riggs (14 Miles each way), playing a tourney at Morley Field .....

I'm spoiled these days; work from home, I live in a golf/tennis club community

:P

TriCitiesTennis
03-06-2007, 09:28 AM
Actually it is not that uncommon for those who play USTA leagues and tourneys to have to drive far distances. I know people who drive twice or thrice that far and stay over night at hotels to play in tournaments multiple times during the year.

Chalk me up as a tournament driver. I've become obsessed with the points rating and state rankings at my 3.5 level.

I'd drive through hell and back to play some of these guys !!!!

Islandtennis
03-06-2007, 09:36 AM
close but not completely right (at least as I understand it)...Matches are thrown out by the computer when a) the dynamic NTRP differential between two players is so large that a competitive match is not expected, and b) the actual results of a match are inconsistent with what is expected from the dynamic NTRP differential between two players.

What you described may or may not occur depending on the differential between the two players.


Oldguy, this was told to me by one of guys in charge of establishing the protocols for the algorithm. He is on the USTA committee representing the Southern Section. It was discussed in reference to the changes happening with the switch to active.com. The example you stated may or may not be thrown out; but as of December, love and love matches were.

JLyon
03-06-2007, 09:52 AM
Shoot if i played a tanker, i would twist an ankle and have to retire. ;) Screw the cheaters.

oldguysrule
03-06-2007, 10:52 AM
Oldguy, this was told to me by one of guys in charge of establishing the protocols for the algorithm. He is on the USTA committee representing the Southern Section. It was discussed in reference to the changes happening with the switch to active.com. The example you stated may or may not be thrown out; but as of December, love and love matches were.

I didn't give a specific example. The two reasons for throwing a match out that I gave are correct.

I was incorrect in saying your example "may or may not" be thrown out. Your example of a 6-0, 6-0 score being thrown out falls under one of the reasons I gave above. I should have gone on to say that other scores could be thrown out as well.

What was told to you was correct, but it wasn't the entire story or the reasons why the 6-0, 6-0 score is thrown out. I was trying to state the reasons for it. Sorry for the poor communication.

Z-Man
03-07-2007, 03:41 AM
Darn, I guess I should have gone ahead and waxed him 0-0. I gave him three games in the second set to protect my rating. After the match I played two close sets against our #2 singles player, so it wasn't a total waste.

I know it sounds crazy, but I will drive for a good match. Several guys in my town play ALTA. The home matches are 30min away. The away matches are 1hr+. A few weeks ago, we drove down to Florida for a team tournament at Tops'l in Destin.

Cindysphinx
03-07-2007, 05:35 AM
Last spring, I got destroyed in singles by a player on my level, 6-1, 6-0.

Had I not held serve that one time, are you guys saying the computer would have disregarded that match -- for both of us?

Sakkijarvi
03-07-2007, 07:27 AM
I played a guy last summer that when things went bad began pouting (facial; demeanor; whiny), said his wife "made him rice and he should know better then eating rice before a match") and tanked.

The pouting and the tanking went hand-in-hand. It was a non USTA match, so there was nothing ratings-wise involved. The guy just tanked, bad swings, saying neg things about himself.

It's hard to say what motivates someone to tank, but I suspect it's not always a calculated thing, not from what I've experienced in this sport in re the mental game.

Tanking is not in my genes, I'm the opposite and life is too short to sell out for some stupid rating bs. Either you are a warrior (including warrior priestess) or wuss. No in between. Tanking makes you a wuss, no matter what your motivation(s).

I hope your day job pays you enough to afford the gasoline to drive 90 miles round trip to meet new and interesting tennis people like your guy.

Sakki

Fedace
03-07-2007, 07:32 AM
You should have double-faulted a couple of service games away if you wanted the score to be closer.

Yea, i like this idea, you can control the match too by double fauting unless he calls them in? I tanked a match too but not like this, when i tank , i just usually go for the line and clean winners all the time, on every point. but i actually had one match i ended up winning it cause all these line shots went in, it was a funny day.:D

oldguysrule
03-07-2007, 07:38 AM
Last spring, I got destroyed in singles by a player on my level, 6-1, 6-0.

Had I not held serve that one time, are you guys saying the computer would have disregarded that match -- for both of us?

Islandtennis is saying that he was told that a score of 6-0, 6-0 is thrown out.

I am saying that there are two reasons a match is thrown out (see above). A score of 6-0, 6-0 probably would fall under one of those two reasons. However, there are other results that could also be thrown out. For example, let's say a low 3.0 playing up, meets up with a high 3.5. The rating differential between these players is so great that there is no expectation for a competitive match. The computer would not use this match in adjusting the dynamic ratings for either player. So, even if the 3.5 tanks a few games in order not to "hurt" his rating and the score ends up 6-1, 6-2, the computer throws the match out.

In your example, you are on the same level, so maybe the computer thinks the score should have been, 6-3, 6-2. The actual result would have been a bump up for your opponent and a bump down for you in DNTRP. I contend that even if you had not won a game, the computer would still have included this match because a) you are on the same level; and b) a 6-0, 6-0 score is not totally out of line if the better player is "on" and the other player is "off". Islandtennis was told that the computer would throw it out. I tend to think that "most" of the time it would (see reasons above), but not neccessarily all of the time.

Nobody knows for sure, so just play and have fun.

Jracer77
03-07-2007, 09:04 AM
It's hard to say what motivates someone to tank, but I suspect it's not always a calculated thing, not from what I've experienced in this sport in re the mental game.


I agree, I think sometimes people just know they aren't going to win at some point in the match and get frustrated to the point of giving up. I don't think they start the match with any intent to tank but end up not trying at all when they are mentally hopelessly beaten.

Netbudda
03-11-2007, 11:03 AM
I believe you wasted a perfect opportunity to teach the "tanker" a lesson, you should have tanked yourself and just barely beaten him 7-6, 6-7, 1-0 and screw with his rating.

J011yroger
03-11-2007, 04:02 PM
Ahhhhh... The joys of playing open.

J

bad_call
03-11-2007, 04:13 PM
Ahhhhh... The joys of playing open.

J

no kidding. i'm so glad i played the opens instead of this junk...altho i did get it handed to me at times.

goober
03-11-2007, 04:38 PM
Ahhhhh... The joys of playing open.

J

This is really about USTA league tennis. I have seen very little of this going on in NTRP tourneys.

beernutz
03-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Yea, i like this idea, you can control the match too
by double fauting unless he calls them in? [snip]

Nope, you can call your own 2nd serves out, just not your first serves.

Just put them into the net to be sure.

the_playa
04-15-2007, 04:39 AM
the "oh and oh" matches being thrown out automatically is interesting. i have seen numerous 6-0, 6-0 scores entered for league matches which were obviously no-shows entered incorrectly (perhaps to give someone a "match played" or perhaps just an error). it's nice to hear that at least some of these were "thrown out".

Topaz
04-15-2007, 07:22 AM
the "oh and oh" matches being thrown out automatically is interesting. i have seen numerous 6-0, 6-0 scores entered for league matches which were obviously no-shows entered incorrectly (perhaps to give someone a "match played" or perhaps just an error). it's nice to hear that at least some of these were "thrown out".

In our league, a no-show is supposed to be entered 6-0, 6-0. The team that didn't show defaults to the team that did show, and that is score that is entered, along with the designation of 'default'.

bleach
04-15-2007, 09:38 AM
First:

You should play your game to the best of you ability. Tanking points or games is wrong. If I were you, I would file a grevaince against the player/team that you played. If a player is found gulity of tanking, then he can be thrown out of the league, which he should be. I know it happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. If we police ourselves we can stop these types of players.

Second:

I doubt that any match scores are "thrown-out". If a lower level player loses big to a higher level, that's what the computer expects the scores to be. In this case, it would not hurt either player. But if two players at the same level play and the score 0 0, then you can be sure the winner will go up and the loser goes down.

Third:

Someone mentions putting in scores of matches that were not on the up and up (maybe I misread this, if so sorry). This happened in our league a couple of years ago. The players/captains involved were thrown out of the league for 2 years. So it ain't worth it.

Raiden.Kaminari
04-16-2007, 02:29 AM
I tried to ignore this thread, but I was bothered at some of the support for the original poster.

Had the original poster filed a grievance, he would have been reprimanded for not knowing the rules, and for not following the Code.

Things kind of started off on the wrong foot when my opponent tried to rush me through the warmup. Some people need to hit more than one serve on each side before they play a match.
In general warm ups are not supposed to be more than 5 minutes, although many players seem to confuse warm up with practice. Warm up is only meant to help warm up your body for competition.

ITF rule 29e.
The Code 3
The Code 39 Stalling (excessive warm up)

Then, he complained when I sat down for 10 seconds to take one sip of water on the first changeover.

If you took a quick sip while standing, I'm sure there would have been no problem. However, you decided to sit down, which probably lasted more than 10 seconds.

ITF rule 29A Continuous play
The Code 39 Stalling (taking too much time on changeovers)

I don’t care if that’s the rule or not—this isn’t the US Open.
The way I am reading it, you again decided not to follow the rules. You were clearly not following The Code at all. To quote The Code
All players have a responsibility to be familiar with the basic rules and customs of tennis. Further, it can be distressing when a player makes a decision in accordance with a rule and the opponet protests with the remark: "Well, I never heard of that rule before!" Ignorance of the rules constitutes a delinquency on the part of a player and often spoils an otherwise good match.

The Code 1 Courtesy

He also got agitated if I went back to the fence to get the third ball when he was serving--even though it did not disrupt play.

ITF rule 29A Between points, a maximum of twenty (20) seconds is allowed.
The Code 29 Receiver readiness
The receiver shall play to the reasonable pace of the server
The Code 39 Stalling
Was it necessary to clear the ball, or were you stalling? If he had asked for the third ball, no issue. But you made the decision to delay the game.

The first 3 games were pretty close, but I won them all. 10 minutes into the match, he was completely tanking. First, he hit little short balls for me to pound to the corners, but after that, he just stopped trying to hit the ball back unless I hit it right to him. I’d hit a 1st serve long, and he’d call in an ace. On set point (6-0), he caught my serve with his hand and complemented me on my game.
Sounds like he was still showing you courtesy. Maybe a few things happened in the first 3 games (like you making bad line calls perhaps, or deciding to ignore rules like running into the net, reaching over the net, etc.), that made him realize there was no point trying to play a fair match with you since you had already made it obvious you weren't going to follow rules or The Code.

Then he had the guts to tell me it was OK to sit down and take a little break between sets if I wanted to.
He was just reminding you about the rules.

What a jerk! I think he was trying to get me bumped up to 4.5. Rather than testing his game against a stronger player, he decided to try to screw up my record by losing 6-0, 6-0. Tanking a game here and there to keep the computer happy is one thing, but it would never occur to me to go down 6-0, 6-0 to ruin someone else’s chance to play league tennis. There’s little or no league activity at 4.5, so if you’re bumped up—that’s it for you. I know—I just came back from a 3-year exile at 4.5. The guy has some wins over good players, so I know he can play. Instead of raising the level of his game, he just wasted one Saturday of my life.

First, you were the jerk.

Second, you weren't necessarily the stronger player ... just the player who decided to play mind games (by stalling, and making up your own rules at your convenience). You probably prefer playing mind games rather than win the match with your tennis skills.

Third, he didn't waste your Saturday. You wasted it when you decided to make up your own rules, and which ones you were going to follow. His only recourse was to get off the court as quickly as possible. Why waste his time playing a match that he doesn't have a chance to win, against someone willing to cheat by not following any rules?

As someone who supposedly played 4.5, I would have hoped you would show better sportsmanship than whine. Your opponent seems to have been more the gentleman compared to you.

If you truly are an elite player as your comments imply, play Open. You won't have a chance to play mind games in an officiated match.

Raiden.Kaminari
04-16-2007, 02:35 AM
First:

You should play your game to the best of you ability. Tanking points or games is wrong. If I were you, I would file a grevaince against the player/team that you played. If a player is found gulity of tanking, then he can be thrown out of the league, which he should be. I know it happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right. If we police ourselves we can stop these types of players.

The original poster is claiming the opponent tanked the match. Then later admits the he himself tanks in order to manage his DNTRP ... hmmm.

Second:

I doubt that any match scores are "thrown-out". If a lower level player loses big to a higher level, that's what the computer expects the scores to be. In this case, it would not hurt either player. But if two players at the same level play and the score 0 0, then you can be sure the winner will go up and the loser goes down.

Scores are not thrown out if the players are of equal level or nearly equivalent level. However, a 3.0 level player losing 0-6, 0-6 to a 5.0 player is normally thrown out, because the differential would push the 3.0 upwards if the 5.0 player has a long history, and vice versa if the 3.0 has a long history.

Third:

Someone mentions putting in scores of matches that were not on the up and up (maybe I misread this, if so sorry). This happened in our league a couple of years ago. The players/captains involved were thrown out of the league for 2 years. So it ain't worth it.

Falsifying scores will indeed lead to a suspension.

bleach
04-16-2007, 03:44 AM
Scores are not thrown out, they just don't carry any weight! When two players play, based on their DNTRP, there's a predicted score. The delta off of this score will effect the DNTRP of the players (up & down). So if a low 3.0 plays a high 3.5, then the expected score "might" be 0-0. Thus, little to no change in the players rating... but all matches count, some more than others.

Raiden.Kaminari
04-18-2007, 12:39 PM
Scores are not thrown out, they just don't carry any weight!

If the score has no weight, the score is basically thrown out of the calculation.

A low 3.0 and high 3.5 would still be calculated.

A low 3.0 and a high 5.0 would not count if the 5.0 won (0, 0).

A low 3.0 winning a few games from a high 5.0 would count towards calculations for the 3.0.

kevhen
04-20-2007, 07:26 AM
Either he wants his own rating lowered or he wants your rating raised so he doesn't have to play you again, since maybe he feels like he can't beat you.

Z-Man
04-20-2007, 01:07 PM
Raiden:
You seem to know a lot about the match considering you weren't there, and you must be an amazing judge of character considering you call me a jerk when we have never met. FYI, I don't recall stalling during the 25 minute match, and I certainly wasn't the one playing mind games. All I'm asking for is an opponent who shows up to play tennis. When I face a tough match, I try to raise the level of my game. I guess not everyone likes a challenge. Go find another thread to troll...