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Cindysphinx
03-18-2007, 07:08 PM
In our league, players who are 5 minutes late lose the toss and 1 game. Between 5-10 minutes late and it's the toss plus 2 games. Ten minutes late is a default. Our matches are 2-hour timed matches, so starting on time is important.

Today my mixed team had a match, and I didn't play. The opposing team had a team member turn up 23 minutes late. My captain did not take a default, not wishing to appear to be, in his words "a complete @ss." He offered to impose the 5-10 penalty of loss of toss and two games.

Would you have done the same thing?

Not me, man. Not a flippin' chance. My players and I go through heck to be at our matches on time. If the other team doesn't show on time, I most definitely will hold them to the rule and take the default. I will offer to play an exhibition match to use the court time, but I see nothing wrong with enforcing the time penalty.

Fortunately, we won the team match 3-0, so no harm, no foul. But the match was very close with several tiebreakers, so it easily could have gone the wrong way.

Cindy -- who has accepted many defaults and plans to continue accepting them

Cruzer
03-18-2007, 09:36 PM
Cindy -- who has accepted many defaults and plans to continue accepting them

I have and will continue to do so. I had a team show up late for a match a few months ago because they went to the wrong away location. They showed up about 45 minutes late. The opposing team took the default and I don't blame them. I would have done the same thing.

equinox
03-18-2007, 09:42 PM
Never. I don't want defaults, i want to win fairly.

Offer an exhibition? Why should they give you practice if you don't want to play for real?

No, you default anyone and the whole team should just go home. You win and get to feel good about yourself Cindy.

People do get caught in traffic and unforseen accidents happen ocassionally.

Giving the club or opposition team a ring to say you'll be running is common courtesy This may save yourself from being defaulted.

lordmanji
03-18-2007, 10:11 PM
well, i think its a real shame if you take the default. i guess it falls into the "win by any means" category to me which is very draconian. if you train and love tennis then why not want to beat others fairly? wouldnt you feel better about that than an easy win? i know i would.

ive played against teams where my own team member would be 20 minutes late and they graciously waited. this doesnt change that our team was mad at the teammate - we were - but you can bet next time we'd extend the same courtesy. it makes for good karma.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-18-2007, 11:40 PM
Hmmm ... they implemented a point penalty system for an unofficiated match in your Section?

That's too bad.

What happens when you get stuck in traffic? What happens if you get into an accident? What happens if you get lost (some sites are pretty difficult to find if you're not familiar with it, and a lot of the Internet websites sometimes misdirect you.

You want people to treat you as you would have them treat you.

So, if you have a real problem getting to a match, and have done everything within your power (ie. made a phone call to the captain, indicating the problem, etc.), then you have no problem getting defaulted (after spending 2 hours in traffic trying to get their 1 hour early)?

I think NorCal LLAR has it right ... they said, the intent of the rule is to prevent people from intentionally showing up late (or not showing up at all). If players don't even bother showing up, the captain should drop them from the team.

AndrewD
03-18-2007, 11:53 PM
No, I wouldn't take a default and would do whatever I could to ensure we did play. Sure, rules are rules, but if you're playing for the win and not for the love of competing and improving then I think you've got your priorities out of whack.

peter
03-19-2007, 12:35 AM
No, I wouldn't take a default and would do whatever I could to ensure we did play. Sure, rules are rules, but if you're playing for the win and not for the love of competing and improving then I think you've got your priorities out of whack.

Same here. I hate to win by default (no matter what the reason is). I want to _play_ and have a fair fight (and preferably win if possible). I play tennis to get my some exercise and to feel the thrill of measuring ones tennis capabilities against other players. Not to win just for the sake of winning.

We had a team come late to a league match against us a couple of weeks ago. It turned out they had almost ran over a hunters dog while driving to the league match (the dog ran out into the road infront of their car) so they had to stop and take care of the dog which apparently was lost and very tired. Later it turned out that the dog had been missing for many days and had been running a *long* way until our opponents had found it. Needless to say the owner was very happy when they got in touch with him.

Cindysphinx
03-19-2007, 02:52 AM
People take and accept defaults around here all the time. My team suffered its first ever default yesterday due to lateness of one player. Another of my teams suffered a default when a player had a car accident on the way over. Teams that don't wish to risk default designate alternates to come to the facility in case someone doesn't show.

The rules also state that the defaulting team pays 100% of the court fees; captains post $100 deposit, and $60 will be withheld for each default. Captains tell their players that if they default for any reason that they must pay the $60 before they will be allowed to play another match. This was all explained at the captain's meeting.

Hey, these are timed matches. My players show up at least 30 minutes early so they will have time to cope with traffic, speeding tickets, etc. If they show up 20 minutes before the match, I consider them late and start calling. If the other team opts not to take these precautions, they have potentially impacted the outcome of the match. I might feel differently if we didn't have these time constraints, but we do.

If my player is late, I wouldn't even ask that the default rule be waived. We'd suck it up and take the consequences of our own failure to do what is required. Begging for mercy is for weenies.

Oh, and our league will be going to 90-minute matches for the spring season because one tennis facility is being remodeled. Being late will really be a capital offense this spring.

tennis-n-sc
03-19-2007, 03:23 AM
Cindy, I'm with you on this. As a matter of fact, I took a default yesterday. The opposing team was all there except for on player and no one knew where he was. We started the other lines and 40 minutes later the guy shows up. He had gone to the wrong club. Tough. The rest of his team knew where to go. It's a local rule, all captains are familiar with it, it is rude to not be on time, and I'll take them. I was going to cut the guy some slack but it was too much. When he showed, they played their line for fun and his team wore him out. Turns out he is a college professor. :)

SJS
03-19-2007, 04:23 AM
People take and accept defaults around here all the time. My team suffered its first ever default yesterday due to lateness of one player. Another of my teams suffered a default when a player had a car accident on the way over. Teams that don't wish to risk default designate alternates to come to the facility in case someone doesn't show.

The rules also state that the defaulting team pays 100% of the court fees; captains post $100 deposit, and $60 will be withheld for each default. Captains tell their players that if they default for any reason that they must pay the $60 before they will be allowed to play another match. This was all explained at the captain's meeting.

Hey, these are timed matches. My players show up at least 30 minutes early so they will have time to cope with traffic, speeding tickets, etc. If they show up 20 minutes before the match, I consider them late and start calling. If the other team opts not to take these precautions, they have potentially impacted the outcome of the match. I might feel differently if we didn't have these time constraints, but we do.

If my player is late, I wouldn't even ask that the default rule be waived. We'd suck it up and take the consequences of our own failure to do what is required. Begging for mercy is for weenies.

Oh, and our league will be going to 90-minute matches for the spring season because one tennis facility is being remodeled. Being late will really be a capital offense this spring.

Cindy,
My league is similar to yours in that we only have 90 minutes for matches and also have to pay court costs for defaults. I agree you have to default the other team (they would do the same to you!). I captain non-USTA teams that have no time limit and am much more flexible with those teams. The 90 minute time limit is the reason we need to adhere strictly to the default penalty. We lose the court and can't go "over" that time limit since there is either a match following or the club is closing.

AR15
03-19-2007, 05:33 AM
In my area the team captains are pretty good about negotiating playing times. A couple of the teams are located almost an hour drive from one another. Match times are at 6pm. Many players can't get off work early, so it's important that we work things out (usually in advance).

spot
03-19-2007, 05:40 AM
Maybe a good compromise would have been for them to default the first set. That because they were late there might not be time play 3 full sets. At least then the people would get to play. I think its pretty ridiculous to not show any flexibility at all.

spiderman123
03-19-2007, 06:19 AM
What happens when you get stuck in traffic?


It is amazing timing for this thread here.

This weekend two of our teammates got stuck in traffic because of a semi accident. They were constantly in touch with our captain and making every attempt to reach on time. Our league has 15 minutes deadline for default.

No kidding or exaggeration, they reached on the 16th minute. The other captain accepted the defaults by then and let them play exhibition. I think that was a ridiculous display of sportsmanship. The other single's match had not even started (extended warmup) by the time these guys reached.

Within the rules, we try hard to be on time, etc is all right but we must remember that we are playing recreational tennis and some people may have genuine problems reaching the court. I must say that OP's captain who let them play a real match is a real tennis player. Kudos to the person.

And yes, we lost the match 2-3 (2 defaults and lost the third in Match TB). We won the "exhibition" matches, both of them (opposing player said he was "trying" new things as this was exhibition. Yeah right!!)

raiden031
03-19-2007, 06:37 AM
I would not take a default nor would I impose any penalty unless they were later than like 30 minutes. The reason being that I would rather earn a win without any advantage. And rather than win by default, I'd rather play since I showed up to the match to play tennis, not get an automatic win. If someone defaulted my team because we were 10-15 mins late, I would not take up their offer to play an exhibition game.

If they were more than like 30 mins late though, my concern would be that there wouldn't be adequate time to complete the match, and I would be ****ed if I lost a match because we ran out of time, as I don't like the rules for handling matches that run out of time. So I'd probably take a default and offer an exhibition.

Cindysphinx
03-19-2007, 07:42 AM
Yeah, the time thing around here is a *huge* big deal.

The rules are quite precise. Captains must agree on an official time-piece by which to judge tardiness. Players who break a string are allowed to go to their bench and get a new racquet. If they must leave the court, the same time penalities I have described above kick in (loss of games or default), so you'd better not leave your spare racquet in your trunk. Last season, there was a restriction on bathroom breaks and they were completely forbidden during the last 15 minutes IIRC, although it was lifted this season.

You have to remember that when the horn blows at the end of the two hours, there is another team standing right there to take your court. There have been instances in which the other captain/team wished to keep playing beyond the 2 hours. In all instances, I say no. I say no if my team is ahead; I say no if my team is behind. I say no if the team requesting the extension is my buddy; I say no if the team requesting the extension is my sworn enemy. I will never feel tempted to engage in bias or gamesmanship if I just stick with the rules no matter what.

A few weeks back, my team took the court when the horn blew to find a team playing a third set tiebreaker. One of the players was a former teammate and friend. I told them they had to vacate the court. Why? I don't think it would be fair to the team she was playing or to my own players to deviate from the 2-hour rule. As it turns out, my friend was behind in the tie-break and so lost the match because she couldn't finish the tiebreaker. Oh well. That's the way it goes with timed indoor matches.

I mean, ya gotta remember that we're not talking about kicking someone off the organ transplant list here. We're talking about calmly following the rules we all agree to abide by. If someone takes a default and then plays a social match (this is what my ladies did yesterday), what's the problem? For me, it's not about getting win on a technicality. It's about being totally impartial, fair, and unbiased in the administration of the rules. I don't expect special dispensation for myself or my team, nor do I expect to give it.

Things work much more smoothly that way. You don't find yourself standing there arguing about what's "fair" with someone who, through no fault of mine, failed to show up and wasted my players' time.

Raiden, if you declined our offer to play an exhibition because we took your default, we would use the court to play singles. For us, it is free court time. So far, I've never seen a team decline to play exhibition. They are usually *mortified* to have been late and will do anything to put it right.

raiden031
03-19-2007, 07:57 AM
Raiden, if you declined our offer to play an exhibition because we took your default, we would use the court to play singles. For us, it is free court time. So far, I've never seen a team decline to play exhibition. They are usually *mortified* to have been late and will do anything to put it right.

I understand following the rules, and the rules are there for a purpose...to ensure that all players arrive on time. Without facing the possiblity of a default, players would have little reason to arrive precisely on time.

However, I think when they are just late enough to warrant a default, but there still is adequate time to play the whole match, then taking the default is taking the easy way out. I'd rather play people who want to earn their win, then to just have it handed to them. I can't really hold it against them too much because rules are rules, but there is something that doesn't sit well with me when people aren't willing to let things slide at times. Lets not forget this is a social sport, not the military.

So my logic is that if my opponent is not willing to do me a favor (giving me a break), then I'm not going to do them any favors (providing opponents for an exhibition doubles match).

atatu
03-19-2007, 08:42 AM
Probably not. What comes around goes around. If the guy got lost or hit traffic I would let him play. However, there are a few players in town who are flakes and habitually show up 20 minutes late, if one of thoes guys doesn't show up, then yes, I would take the DF.

kylebarendrick
03-19-2007, 09:10 AM
My mixed team was playing in our local league playoff last week. I wasn't scheduled to play, but went to the match to cheer on the team and support my wife, who was playing. NorCal has a 15 minute default rule, but has a "clarification" in the rules that makes it clear that the intention isn't to default teams doing their best to arrive on time - especially if there are no time constraints on the courts.

When I arrived at the match about 20 minutes after the scheduled start time, I learned that my wife's partner had gotten a flat tire on the way to the match and couldn't get there on time. I offered to play in his place - he's a 4.0 and I'm a 3.5 so it's not like we were taking advantage of the situation. The opposing captain said "no", and declared the default. He justified it saying "what would I say to my team if we lost because of this?".

I replied he could tell them that we settled it on the court. No luck there - and this definitely took the fun out of the experience!

lordmanji
03-19-2007, 09:14 AM
I understand following the rules, and the rules are there for a purpose...to ensure that all players arrive on time. Without facing the possiblity of a default, players would have little reason to arrive precisely on time.

However, I think when they are just late enough to warrant a default, but there still is adequate time to play the whole match, then taking the default is taking the easy way out. I'd rather play people who want to earn their win, then to just have it handed to them. I can't really hold it against them too much because rules are rules, but there is something that doesn't sit well with me when people aren't willing to let things slide at times. Lets not forget this is a social sport, not the military.

So my logic is that if my opponent is not willing to do me a favor (giving me a break), then I'm not going to do them any favors (providing opponents for an exhibition doubles match).

yeah its like taking the bible literally. we'd all be missing one eye and a leg if we did that. ;) the spirit of the rule is what i think we should be more concerned about and tennis is probably the only sport where the players are expected to have an ideal moral standard which is great in my book.

but it sounds like the OP is in a pretty competitive section and places high value on winning, which is fine. i was on a team this season in the middle of the standings and we placed more emphasis on having fun and trying our best to win. we did, btw, take two match wins due to defaults by the same team since they didnt have enough players. :)

Joeyg
03-19-2007, 09:24 AM
It is just the height of arrogance for someone to be that late for a match. Very few things **** me off more than waiting around for someone to show up, and then waive it off casually like it was no big deal and I'm a jerk for demanding that they be on time. Take the default and maybe next time this person will be on time.

Ace
03-19-2007, 09:26 AM
It would depend on whether or not it was a timed match and how late the player was.

Our matches aren't timed. If a player is 10-15 minutes late, I would let it slide. Especially if someone from the other team is in phone contact with that person and knows that they are indeed on the way. I try to work with the other team as best I can to get the match in. I want to play the match...I'm not getting any prize money here, I joined the league because I like to play.

Any later than that, I would ask the player from my team if it was ok with them, and encourage them to play the match. But, people have places to be, and if my player absolutely couldn't accomodate them because they are 40 minutes late, then I would take the default.

On the flip side of that, though, if I had a player that was continually late without any kind of good excuse, they would not be on the roster any longer.

raiden031
03-19-2007, 09:28 AM
It is just the height of arrogance for someone to be that late for a match. Very few things **** me off more than waiting around for someone to show up, and then waive it off casually like it was no big deal and I'm a jerk for demanding that they be on time. Take the default and maybe next time this person will be on time.

How is it arrogant when someone gets stuck in traffic or has an emergency come up that makes them late?

Joeyg
03-19-2007, 09:54 AM
Raiden,

Leave earlier. Get there early. If not, pay the prescribed penalty. The rules are there for a reason.

raiden031
03-19-2007, 10:02 AM
Raiden,

Leave earlier. Get there early. If not, pay the prescribed penalty. The rules are there for a reason.

I'm not arguing with your enforcement of the rules, but your assumption that only arrogant people arrive late to a tennis match.

Tell me you've never gotten stuck in traffic and I'll call you a liar. I have been stuck in traffic for 4 hours before. You expect people to arrive hours before the match to avoid being arrogantly late?

spiderman123
03-19-2007, 10:18 AM
Raiden,

Leave earlier. Get there early. If not, pay the prescribed penalty. The rules are there for a reason.

Our teammates had started 45 min early for a 15 min drive on a Sunday morning.

It took them an hour to reach because of a very bad semi accident. The opposite captain was keen to enforce the rules and did not even allow a min over 15 min. (They were there before the 16th min.)

It was not a timed match either.

Reading this thread I can see that there are many captains who would have taken the default. I am not arguing their priorities but at the same time the rules do not say that I cannot think that it defies common sense and basic sportsman spirit.

Topaz
03-19-2007, 02:58 PM
People take and accept defaults around here all the time. My team suffered its first ever default yesterday due to lateness of one player. Another of my teams suffered a default when a player had a car accident on the way over. Teams that don't wish to risk default designate alternates to come to the facility in case someone doesn't show.

The rules also state that the defaulting team pays 100% of the court fees; captains post $100 deposit, and $60 will be withheld for each default. Captains tell their players that if they default for any reason that they must pay the $60 before they will be allowed to play another match. This was all explained at the captain's meeting.

Hey, these are timed matches. My players show up at least 30 minutes early so they will have time to cope with traffic, speeding tickets, etc. If they show up 20 minutes before the match, I consider them late and start calling. If the other team opts not to take these precautions, they have potentially impacted the outcome of the match. I might feel differently if we didn't have these time constraints, but we do.

If my player is late, I wouldn't even ask that the default rule be waived. We'd suck it up and take the consequences of our own failure to do what is required. Begging for mercy is for weenies.

Oh, and our league will be going to 90-minute matches for the spring season because one tennis facility is being remodeled. Being late will really be a capital offense this spring.

That is *exactly* how we do it, too, Cindy. Only all of our matches are already timed at 90 minutes. Everyone knows the policy, and basically nobody has a problem with it, no matter on what side. Our policy is a bit different, actually...currently it isn't a default until 20 minutes have passed. Next month that will change to 15 minutes. When I captain, we *always* have an 'extra', dressed sub show up for every match.

Topaz
03-19-2007, 03:00 PM
I'm not arguing with your enforcement of the rules, but your assumption that only arrogant people arrive late to a tennis match.

Tell me you've never gotten stuck in traffic and I'll call you a liar. I have been stuck in traffic for 4 hours before. You expect people to arrive hours before the match to avoid being arrogantly late?

No, but if they are too late, they cause the default, and they pay the court fees. That's the way it is, everyone knows it going in, and nobody has a problem with it.

LoveThisGame
03-19-2007, 03:41 PM
Based on a couple times of being on the waiting end, I think a default is in order unless there are extenuating circumstances and there was a call ahead to the playing site before the scheduled start time to say that there is a construction or accident slowdown, etc.

If opponents show negligence in planning and executing, tough.

Why? I or my team has a) eaten according to the schedule, b) warmed up, and c) primed themselves mentally. When you have to wait around not knowing when or if the match will happen, and then wait for the opponent to go to the bathroom, warmup, have a group huddle, etc., that's rude.

I've been on the other end, too. I gave myself an extra hour to get to a tournament match about 70 miles away. I went to get on the Interstate, only to find it a parking lot. (It had already been that way for hours, I found out.)

There aren't good alternatives. I started on one, realized that was not going to work, and tried a second. An hour after starting out, I was about 12 miles into the trip with added blocked two lane traffic ahead of me. There was no phone I could call to the courts, so I called the director's home phone and told his wife that I had tried valiantly, but simply could not succeed in any reasonable amount of time so I defaulted.

ironicqueery
03-19-2007, 05:50 PM
On a somewhat related note, how do defaults factor into rankings ? Are they just not considered? Do they help, or hinder?

Cindysphinx
03-19-2007, 06:27 PM
Defaults don't count for ratings, but they do cause unfair swings in team standings.

I remember when I was a 2.5 captain, we were *desperate* not to finish last of 11 teams. I mean, we sucked, but we didn't want to suck worst of all.

One of the other horrible teams received a triple default. That meant they had a team win (those were hard to come by, believe me!), and they got six sets and 36 games (sets and games being the tiebreakers). No fair! :)

Say, uh . . . for those who wouldn't take the default, what happens if you arrive for a tournament late? Do you expect the tournament director to cut you a break? Or do you get your butt there super-early?

Lastly, I don't think our league is hyper-competitive. It's like any other league. It just sounds like a lot of you play outdoor matches or play at clubs where court time is readily available. Not so here. Taking the default isn't about "grabbing a win." It's about not having to race through a match trying to beat the buzzer because the other team doesn't value promptness and did not designate an alternate.

zapvor
03-19-2007, 10:23 PM
where do you play cindy?

kingdaddy41788
03-19-2007, 10:39 PM
I feel like if you call and have a legitimate excuse for your tardiness, you should not necessarily be held to full default penalties. However, if you don't call (and thus show no consideration/respect for your opponents and their time), you definitely forfeit.

tennisee
03-20-2007, 01:48 AM
I was a bit put out when the team were were playing let our captain know two hours before the match that they were forfeiting because they wanted to go and watch the cricket. (Test match - Aussies v Poms, but even so...)
I had scheduled my day around this and was put out.

So when they hadn't shown for the next match half an hour after scheduled starting time (with default set at 10 mins) I did not think too kindly of them. But when they showed up we played, and I was happy to have an afternoon of tennis.

Cindysphinx
03-20-2007, 02:47 AM
where do you play cindy?

I'm in MidAtlantic. I think our league within that section is unusual in that it always has all matches played indoors.

This year, there was a movement afoot to move some matches outside to avoid having timed 90-minute matches (instead of the usual 2 hours). The powers that be refused even to consider the idea.

Apparently, it was tried a few years ago with unsatisfactory results. The weather around here is unpredictable, so they designated scheduled dates and rain dates for all matches. Although players were supposed to hold the rain date open just in case, they tended not to, causing many defaults. Worse, there wan't a good system for reserving the public courts and non-league players weren't happy to suddenly see their favorite courts become unavailable for hours on end.

So we will do timed 90-minute matches.

If it were up to me, I would have handled it differently. I would have told all players that for this one year when one major facility will be out of service no one can join more than one team. Maybe that would cut the number of matches down enough?

Eh, probably not.

sue20852
03-20-2007, 04:11 AM
Defaults don't count for ratings, but they do cause unfair swings in team standings.


Can someone verify this? It seems to me defaults are part of the rating equation, since there can be many "reasons" for defaulting a match.

raiden031
03-20-2007, 04:37 AM
Can someone verify this? It seems to me defaults are part of the rating equation, since there can be many "reasons" for defaulting a match.

If they were part of the ratings equation, it would severely screw up the system, because defaults are considered 6-0, 6-0 wins.

SJS
03-20-2007, 04:55 AM
I'm in MidAtlantic. I think our league within that section is unusual in that it always has all matches played indoors.

This year, there was a movement afoot to move some matches outside to avoid having timed 90-minute matches (instead of the usual 2 hours). The powers that be refused even to consider the idea.

Apparently, it was tried a few years ago with unsatisfactory results. The weather around here is unpredictable, so they designated scheduled dates and rain dates for all matches. Although players were supposed to hold the rain date open just in case, they tended not to, causing many defaults. Worse, there wan't a good system for reserving the public courts and non-league players weren't happy to suddenly see their favorite courts become unavailable for hours on end.

So we will do timed 90-minute matches.

If it were up to me, I would have handled it differently. I would have told all players that for this one year when one major facility will be out of service no one can join more than one team. Maybe that would cut the number of matches down enough?

Eh, probably not.

I play in what I believe is the largest Indoor league in the Mid-Atlantic. We've ALWAYS had only 90 minutes for Adult leagues. What the posters who prefer leniency may not realize is that we must stop the match no matter what when the buzzer goes off. We have all sorts of crazy rules to determine who wins so it's just not the same as an untimed match. The winner of the first set is often the winner of the match if the match is not completed. You could be 4-6, 5-4 when the buzzer goes off. The 2nd set doesn't count (you have to be 2 games ahead)so you lose. So you can see how important it is to start on time.

raiden031
03-20-2007, 05:02 AM
I play in what I believe is the largest Indoor league in the Mid-Atlantic. We've ALWAYS had only 90 minutes for Adult leagues. What the posters who prefer leniency may not realize is that we must stop the match no matter what when the buzzer goes off. We have all sorts of crazy rules to determine who wins so it's just not the same as an untimed match. The winner of the first set is often the winner of the match if the match is not completed. You could be 4-6, 5-4 when the buzzer goes off. The 2nd set doesn't count (you have to be 2 games ahead)so you lose. So you can see how important it is to start on time.

I am one to prefer leniency, because we have 2 hours (minus 10 minute warmup) to play. There was only one time we came anywhere close to using up that time, when our opponents took like 2 minutes between points (partial exaggeration), but usually the match is over in an hour or less. But as I stated, if they are just a few minutes late, I would rather just play the match. But if they are extremely late to where I feel it will likely end in a timed finish, then I will take the default. Its more about me wanting me to avoid losing a match that I could otherwise win (i'm a slow starter) than it is about enforcing the rules.

SJS
03-20-2007, 05:26 AM
I am one to prefer leniency, because we have 2 hours (minus 10 minute warmup) to play. There was only one time we came anywhere close to using up that time, when our opponents took like 2 minutes between points (partial exaggeration), but usually the match is over in an hour or less. But as I stated, if they are just a few minutes late, I would rather just play the match. But if they are extremely late to where I feel it will likely end in a timed finish, then I will take the default. Its more about me wanting me to avoid losing a match that I could otherwise win (i'm a slow starter) than it is about enforcing the rules.
Raiden,
I think it's the 90 minutes and possibly the level of play (longer points at higher levels, esp singles) that makes a difference. I just looked back at last years scores. Out of 14 team matches, in every single one there was at least one individual match that was not completed.

tennis-n-sc
03-20-2007, 05:44 AM
I feel for those of you in locations that have timed matches. That's not tennis, but it is what you have to work with. I would think private clubs would be a little more lenient with court time. I have never played in a timed match but we have the luxury of playing outdoors here year round. Even with that southern perk, I am all for defaulting in accordance with the rules, but with some leeway, 5-15 minutes, depending on the circumstances. You simply cannot allow too much subjectivity to enter into the fray or the orginial rule becomes moot. When a late arrival occurs, it is the whole team that is affected. Our team would never think of leaving the location until the entire team match is complete so we can have a few beers and talk about the match together. A little male bonding. Why should one person be authorized to interrupt the entire match because they can't be on time. Even traffic. Some of our matches are 1 hour away, but there are many routes to the locations. The rule is there for reason and I'm betting before the rule there was a tremendous problem with late arrivals.

sue20852
03-20-2007, 05:48 AM
If they were part of the ratings equation, it would severely screw up the system, because defaults are considered 6-0, 6-0 wins.

On the flip side, if they are not part of the rating equation, the stronger players of a strong team could be manipulated to affect their chance of moving up. Default can also be used to protect from "DQed". Had the match taken place, the win may very well be 1,0. That result is not much different from a 0,0 win.

raiden031
03-20-2007, 05:57 AM
On the flip side, if they are not part of the rating equation, the stronger players of a strong team could be manipulated to affect their chance of moving up. Default can also be used to protect from "DQed". Had the match taken place, the win may very well be 1,0. That result is not much different from a 0,0 win.

How can you suggest that a default, which has no relevance to the skill level of a player should be used in determining a player's skill level rating?

The goal of the rating system is to provide accurate ratings, which would be impossible if defaults were used in the calculation, since a default has no bearing on the skill level.

sue20852
03-20-2007, 06:50 AM
[QUOTE=raiden031;1324708]default.. has no relevance to the skill level of a player ...
QUOTE]
I agree with that. It can be used to manipulate.

If a strong player's win match is thrown out due to opponent's defaulting (0,0), his rating remains constant. That opportunity to play and win is gone. Had he played, chances are he wins with (1,0). He moves up based on his actual win.

If you are saying that is highly improbable, then OK. Thanks for verifying that point.

kevhen
03-20-2007, 06:54 AM
A guy on my team showed up 20 minutes late so we took the forfeit at like 10 after. He played his opponent anyway but it was recorded as a forfeit. He said he took a wrong turn but that wouldn't have made him 20 minutes late as I told him to show up 30 minutes early.

tennis-n-sc
03-20-2007, 06:58 AM
A guy on my team showed up 20 minutes late so we took the forfeit at like 10 after. He played his opponent anyway but it was recorded as a forfeit. He said he took a wrong turn but that wouldn't have made him 20 minutes late as I told him to show up 30 minutes early.

Bingo! :) ......

AndrewD
03-20-2007, 07:24 AM
Say, uh . . . for those who wouldn't take the default, what happens if you arrive for a tournament late? Do you expect the tournament director to cut you a break? Or do you get your butt there super-early?

I don't ask for or expect any favours when I'm playing a tournament or at someone else's club. What someone else chooses to do, as regards defaults (or any other matter), is their own business and completely out of my control. However, when I'm the one in charge, I opt to only take a default when there is no other viable alternative.

NoBadMojo
03-20-2007, 07:54 AM
I agree..defaults are bad mojo, and defaults should be considered based upon each individual situation before being doled out in gestapo fashion...i can understand how things need to be placed on a finite schedule indoors, but knowing that, why dont teams travel in multiple vehicles and bring extra team members to assure things come off properly of someone gets detained? if the weather is good enough to be outside in the summers, why not just run the league <or whatever it is> during the summer outdoors and come up with other programs during the off season. god forbid people should play tennis on their own ;)
some people also use the coming late tactic to get into opponents heads, some have an unavoidable delay, some have history of doing this....if an exception, i think there should be leeway, and something should be worked out on the spirit of sportsmanship....defaults are bad mojo unless people have been blatantly irresponsible, in which case, by all means, default them..

Cindysphinx
03-20-2007, 08:10 AM
Raiden,
I think it's the 90 minutes and possibly the level of play (longer points at higher levels, esp singles) that makes a difference. I just looked back at last years scores. Out of 14 team matches, in every single one there was at least one individual match that was not completed.

Raiden, when I was at 2.5, there were lots of timed matches in singles, as the way to win was just keep pushing the ball back.

At 3.0, I find that the singles matches still take a great long time, but I'm seeing some very long doubles matches. Say you win the first set 6-4 and lose the second set 4-6. You started with 110 minutes to play the entire match. If you take more than 5.5 minutes per game (including changeovers), you will time out before you play the first point of the third set tie-breaker. Heaven help you if you went to 7-5 or needed a tiebreak in either of the first two sets.

In fact, my combo team had a 2-hour timed match this weekend. My combo 6.0 players were taking on a 6.5 combo opponent. My players fell behind 1-5 in the first set because the 3.5 played the net so aggressively. Then my players decided to start lobbing, which got the ball back to the weaker player and threw off their timing. My team caught up at 6-6, and then won a tie-breaker 7-2.

Then for the second set, they stayed on serve to 6-6 and began another set tie-breaker. When the buzzer sounded, the other team was up 6-5 in the tiebreaker. Alas, the tie-break rule says that the second set is disregarded because the tie-break wasn't completed and neither team was ahead by two, and the winner of the first set was declared the winner. So we won that match and therefore the team match.

I am sure our opponents were disappointed. But at least it was a fair fight because the match started on time and our opponents had every minute to which they were entitled to battle back.

For someone to turn up 23 minutes late when there are only 110 minutes available to play, thereby sucking up 25% of the available match time . . . no, not cool.

raiden031
03-20-2007, 09:14 AM
[QUOTE=raiden031;1324708]default.. has no relevance to the skill level of a player ...
QUOTE]
I agree with that. It can be used to manipulate.

If a strong player's win match is thrown out due to opponent's defaulting (0,0), his rating remains constant. That opportunity to play and win is gone. Had he played, chances are he wins with (1,0). He moves up based on his actual win.

If you are saying that is highly improbable, then OK. Thanks for verifying that point.

There is no way to know that the match would've went 1,0. If he doesn't play a match than he should'nt be moved up.

magmasilk
03-20-2007, 10:40 AM
im ok with the rules being enforced ...

I'd prefer to lean on the side of leniency because I just want to play. So if a person showed up 20-30 min late, maybe he/she'd could forfeit the 1st set. A 6-0 set usually takes at most 30 min. Then that would still leave an hour or more for tennis. Of course it is a slippery slope and when is too late?

DANMAN
03-20-2007, 11:14 AM
Defaults are not about playing tennis and are against the spirit of playing league tennis.

SB
03-20-2007, 12:14 PM
Here's a variation: around here, if we don't have 5 courts available, we play doubles first and then singles after. So usually the singles players don't have to show up until later. Technically, the captains are supposed to arrange this beforehand.

A couple of seasons ago, I was called to sub for a singles player about 3 hr before the match. Because singles players typically show up 30 or 45 min late, I didn't worry about getting there right at 6. But my captain had forgotten to say anything to the other captain.

I show up at 6:20, 5 min late, to find that I'd been defaulted by the other captain. Which, okay, I understand, it's her right to do that.

However, here's the rub: there weren't even any courts to play on. We couldn't have played no matter what. So I sat there and ate munchies with the lady who was to be my opponent and waited for the first doubles team to finish, then we went and played "for fun." She is actually a friend of mine, and was quite embarrassed about the whole thing.

What do all you "sticklers" think of that? We have no time limits here, just limited courts and multiple teams. And it's indoor, so lighting and weather aren't factors.

Just curious.

atatu
03-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Here's a variation: around here, if we don't have 5 courts available, we play doubles first and then singles after. So usually the singles players don't have to show up until later. Technically, the captains are supposed to arrange this beforehand.

A couple of seasons ago, I was called to sub for a singles player about 3 hr before the match. Because singles players typically show up 30 or 45 min late, I didn't worry about getting there right at 6. But my captain had forgotten to say anything to the other captain.

I show up at 6:20, 5 min late, to find that I'd been defaulted by the other captain. Which, okay, I understand, it's her right to do that.

However, here's the rub: there weren't even any courts to play on. We couldn't have played no matter what. So I sat there and ate munchies with the lady who was to be my opponent and waited for the first doubles team to finish, then we went and played "for fun." She is actually a friend of mine, and was quite embarrassed about the whole thing.

What do all you "sticklers" think of that? We have no time limits here, just limited courts and multiple teams. And it's indoor, so lighting and weather aren't factors.

Just curious.

That's ridiculous and I really think the clock should start when the court opens up.

Cindysphinx
03-20-2007, 02:11 PM
Here's a variation: around here, if we don't have 5 courts available, we play doubles first and then singles after. So usually the singles players don't have to show up until later. Technically, the captains are supposed to arrange this beforehand.

A couple of seasons ago, I was called to sub for a singles player about 3 hr before the match. Because singles players typically show up 30 or 45 min late, I didn't worry about getting there right at 6. But my captain had forgotten to say anything to the other captain.

I show up at 6:20, 5 min late, to find that I'd been defaulted by the other captain. Which, okay, I understand, it's her right to do that.

However, here's the rub: there weren't even any courts to play on. We couldn't have played no matter what. So I sat there and ate munchies with the lady who was to be my opponent and waited for the first doubles team to finish, then we went and played "for fun." She is actually a friend of mine, and was quite embarrassed about the whole thing.

What do all you "sticklers" think of that? We have no time limits here, just limited courts and multiple teams. And it's indoor, so lighting and weather aren't factors.

Just curious.


I wouldn't have taken your default.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 04:47 PM
My mixed team was playing in our local league playoff last week. I wasn't scheduled to play, but went to the match to cheer on the team and support my wife, who was playing. NorCal has a 15 minute default rule, but has a "clarification" in the rules that makes it clear that the intention isn't to default teams doing their best to arrive on time - especially if there are no time constraints on the courts.

When I arrived at the match about 20 minutes after the scheduled start time, I learned that my wife's partner had gotten a flat tire on the way to the match and couldn't get there on time. I offered to play in his place - he's a 4.0 and I'm a 3.5 so it's not like we were taking advantage of the situation. The opposing captain said "no", and declared the default. He justified it saying "what would I say to my team if we lost because of this?".

I replied he could tell them that we settled it on the court. No luck there - and this definitely took the fun out of the experience!

Hmmm ... your captain has a short time to file a grievance. I just checked with my friend up at NorCal, and he said the other captain should have allowed for a substitution (read your LLAR). Usually teams take the default if players are later than 30 minutes, and the GC will never overturn if a default if no players were present after 30 minutes. However, he said that if someone was available before 30 minutes, there's a chance the GC will say to replay that line.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 04:48 PM
It is just the height of arrogance for someone to be that late for a match. Very few things **** me off more than waiting around for someone to show up, and then waive it off casually like it was no big deal and I'm a jerk for demanding that they be on time. Take the default and maybe next time this person will be on time.

So, if you happen to get into an accident, or have some sort of traffic incident, that made you just barely late (a minute or so outside the designated default time), then you are willing to take the default?

I'm sure that karma will hit you soon.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 04:55 PM
Say, uh . . . for those who wouldn't take the default, what happens if you arrive for a tournament late? Do you expect the tournament director to cut you a break? Or do you get your butt there super-early?

I try to get there early.

However, if I am still delayed, I always call the tournament director. If he's aware there was an accident, then there's no issue since the other players are also running late.

I waited 2 hours to start a match at a tournament, because my opponent's friend had a heart attack. He still played horribly, and was in a rush to get back to the hospital. I told him at another tournament, that if it were me, I would have just called in the default (withdrawal (emergency)) (which he agreed he should have done).

Was I upset at him for being late? No, I got to watch some tennis while waiting. And now I have another hitting partner.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 04:57 PM
Can someone verify this? It seems to me defaults are part of the rating equation, since there can be many "reasons" for defaulting a match.

I can tell you with great certainty that they don't affect DNTRP.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 04:59 PM
I feel for those of you in locations that have timed matches. That's not tennis, but it is what you have to work with. I would think private clubs would be a little more lenient with court time. I have never played in a timed match but we have the luxury of playing outdoors here year round. Even with that southern perk, I am all for defaulting in accordance with the rules, but with some leeway, 5-15 minutes, depending on the circumstances. You simply cannot allow too much subjectivity to enter into the fray or the orginial rule becomes moot. When a late arrival occurs, it is the whole team that is affected. Our team would never think of leaving the location until the entire team match is complete so we can have a few beers and talk about the match together. A little male bonding. Why should one person be authorized to interrupt the entire match because they can't be on time. Even traffic. Some of our matches are 1 hour away, but there are many routes to the locations. The rule is there for reason and I'm betting before the rule there was a tremendous problem with late arrivals.

Hmmm ... this brings back an old story.

Who remembers which doubles pair could not defend their Major title because they were stuck in traffic?

tennis-n-sc
03-20-2007, 05:41 PM
Hmmm ... this brings back an old story.

Who remembers which doubles pair could not defend their Major title because they were stuck in traffic?

Was it the Jensons. I remember one of them just didn't show up at Wimby for a match. His head was a little smoky, as I recall.

tennis-n-sc
03-20-2007, 05:42 PM
That's ridiculous and I really think the clock should start when the court opens up.

Yep, I agree. That was a crappy action on the captains behalf.

ElSuegro
03-20-2007, 05:46 PM
danman, nobadmojo, and andrewd (and anyone else who believes in ignoring certain rules):

If your opponent is serving, and serves two consecutive faults, would you claim the point, or would you give them a third try in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

If you reach six games in a set, and you are ahead by at least two games, would you claim the set, or would you offer to continue in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

If you hit a good shot, and then it bounced twice, and then the opponent returned it good, would you claim the point, or would you continue playing in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

Just wondering ;)

DANMAN
03-20-2007, 07:54 PM
danman, nobadmojo, and andrewd (and anyone else who believes in ignoring certain rules):

If your opponent is serving, and serves two consecutive faults, would you claim the point, or would you give them a third try in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

If you reach six games in a set, and you are ahead by at least two games, would you claim the set, or would you offer to continue in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

If you hit a good shot, and then it bounced twice, and then the opponent returned it good, would you claim the point, or would you continue playing in the interest of fairness, sportsmanship, and courtesy?

Just wondering ;)

I don't normally get irritated by posts of this nature, but yours got to me. When you are calling someone out, putting a smiley face behind your post does not make it less piercing. Nonetheless, I know mojo plays high level T (5.0+) and I am playing 5.0 now, and I am pretty sure AndrewD plays high level ball as well. I have realized that there is a lot less BS as you progress higher up the totem pole. The guys are extremely intense on the court (and sometimes off), but they let their rackets do the talking. All of these posts in this Adult League and Tournament Talk are about 2.5s, 3.0s, and 3.5s complaining about ringers/sandbaggers/etc. I am glad I never played adult league at that level because I hear all of that stuff constantly where I am from. Maybe worrying about actually getting on the court and playing should be more important than taking a default based on a rule meant to keep tennis gentlemanly (not leaving people waiting etc.). I think it would make for better tennis (since at least you would play tennis instead of leaving or playing an "exhibition"--which in my opinion only pros play) and better tennis players. There seems to be way too much time spent on petty things like this when real improvement only comes from playing,,,and yes...often LOSING. League play is all about play, not defaulting. I have been to and have won nationals, and to tell you the truth, it is just another tournament. Until people realize that the satisfaction lies in being the best player they can be and that they aren't going to make a living from it, maybe this nonsense will continue. I hope people get smart quickly.

NoBadMojo
03-20-2007, 08:17 PM
Hmmm ... this brings back an old story.

Who remembers which doubles pair could not defend their Major title because they were stuck in traffic?

I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but it seems to me Peter Fleming got stuck in traffic at the USOpen one year and didnt make it to his doubles match with Mac

I don't normally get irritated by posts of this nature, but yours got to me. When you are calling someone out, putting a smiley face behind your post does not make it less piercing. Nonetheless, I know mojo plays high level T (5.0+) and I am playing 5.0 now, and I am pretty sure AndrewD plays high level ball as well. I have realized that there is a lot less BS as you progress higher up the totem pole. The guys are extremely intense on the court (and sometimes off), but they let their rackets do the talking. All of these posts in this Adult League and Tournament Talk are about 2.5s, 3.0s, and 3.5s complaining about ringers/sandbaggers/etc. I am glad I never played adult league at that level because I hear all of that stuff constantly where I am from. Maybe worrying about actually getting on the court and playing should be more important than taking a default based on a rule meant to keep tennis gentlemanly (not leaving people waiting etc.). I think it would make for better tennis (since at least you would play tennis instead of leaving or playing an "exhibition"--which in my opinion only pros play) and better tennis players. There seems to be way too much time spent on petty things like this when real improvement only comes from playing,,,and yes...often LOSING. League play is all about play, not defaulting. I have been to and have won nationals, and to tell you the truth, it is just another tournament. Until people realize that the satisfaction lies in being the best player they can be and that they aren't going to make a living from it, maybe this nonsense will continue. I hope people get smart quickly.

good post...I think more important than this is a sense of sportsmanship and cooperation..if people were doing this stuff blatantly thats' one thing and i wouldnt hesitate in defaulting them if they were, but it's an imperfect world and stuff happens and if people cant have a little flexibility over a pretty meaningless league match, that's pretty sad.
but yea..you would think it;s some sort of big deal the way people carry on about all this stuff you hear about in these league matches ..it's just a game...it;s suppose to be fun. if people worried more about their games than defaulting people and a bunch of rules and all this other stuff, i think things would be better..who needs all the drama

i came from the era where we played open age non handicapped events..i think that was best...no sandbagging as that wasnt even possible...lace up your shoes and go play T.., and if you werent very good, you got crushed and humbled and then you could decide if you should keep at it and play more events and take your lumps until you got better or play more recreationally and purely for the fun.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-20-2007, 10:51 PM
I don't normally get irritated by posts of this nature, but yours got to me. When you are calling someone out, putting a smiley face behind your post does not make it less piercing. Nonetheless, I know mojo plays high level T (5.0+) and I am playing 5.0 now, and I am pretty sure AndrewD plays high level ball as well. I have realized that there is a lot less BS as you progress higher up the totem pole. The guys are extremely intense on the court (and sometimes off), but they let their rackets do the talking. All of these posts in this Adult League and Tournament Talk are about 2.5s, 3.0s, and 3.5s complaining about ringers/sandbaggers/etc. I am glad I never played adult league at that level because I hear all of that stuff constantly where I am from. Maybe worrying about actually getting on the court and playing should be more important than taking a default based on a rule meant to keep tennis gentlemanly (not leaving people waiting etc.). I think it would make for better tennis (since at least you would play tennis instead of leaving or playing an "exhibition"--which in my opinion only pros play) and better tennis players. There seems to be way too much time spent on petty things like this when real improvement only comes from playing,,,and yes...often LOSING. League play is all about play, not defaulting. I have been to and have won nationals, and to tell you the truth, it is just another tournament. Until people realize that the satisfaction lies in being the best player they can be and that they aren't going to make a living from it, maybe this nonsense will continue. I hope people get smart quickly.

Exactly! Tennis at the lower NTRP seems less about courtesy and more about trying to win at all costs. However, it is also true that sometimes it you have to factor in where the match is being played.

For me, if I run out of court time (on the west coast), my opponents and I try to schedule a continuation to the match. Deciding a match on a coin toss? Totally ludicrous.

As I mentioned in another post, according to my friend, NorCal has it right. If a captain tries to take a default at minute 15, and the other captain files a grievance, the grievance committee usually overturns the default and asks both teams to play the match if the players made a reasonable attempt to make it to the match. When something happens out of their control (example: accident even if they left their house early), captains usually extend the default time.

It really should be less about winning, and more about playing tennis.

By the way, the point penalty system is usually based on an officiated match. Sometimes people's clocks are off and traffic is usually bad, so we give people at least 30 minutes if players have contacted their captain. If the players haven't contacted their captain, the captain usually extends the courtesy towards the home team and defaults them themselves at 20 minutes.

I'm a bit fuzzy on this, but it seems to me Peter Fleming got stuck in traffic at the USOpen one year and didnt make it to his doubles match with Mac
You just dated yourself ;)

Topaz
03-21-2007, 02:53 AM
What a lot of you don't seem to understand is that everyone who plays with these rules understands and accepts the rules before the matches take place. We all know if we are late what could happen. It isn't a gray matter, it is black and white. And yes, crap happens, traffic happens, but the rules are there for many reasons, one of which being *courtesy*! Courtesy to your opponents busy schedules, courtesy to the people who have the match scheduled after you. In the DC metro area, indoor court time is PACKED! We play league matches starting at 9:30pm on a weeknight sometimes because that is the only time we can get the courts! We get our 90 minutes, and that is it!

At least here, this is not about 'lower' rated players behaving badly. This is about the rules of the league and abiding by them when you agree to play in the league.

And just because we do play in such a league does not mean we don't also play 'just for fun' at times, and don't even keep score.

zapvor
03-21-2007, 02:57 AM
I'm in MidAtlantic. I think our league within that section is unusual in that it always has all matches played indoors.

This year, there was a movement afoot to move some matches outside to avoid having timed 90-minute matches (instead of the usual 2 hours). The powers that be refused even to consider the idea.

Apparently, it was tried a few years ago with unsatisfactory results. The weather around here is unpredictable, so they designated scheduled dates and rain dates for all matches. Although players were supposed to hold the rain date open just in case, they tended not to, causing many defaults. Worse, there wan't a good system for reserving the public courts and non-league players weren't happy to suddenly see their favorite courts become unavailable for hours on end.

So we will do timed 90-minute matches.

If it were up to me, I would have handled it differently. I would have told all players that for this one year when one major facility will be out of service no one can join more than one team. Maybe that would cut the number of matches down enough?



Eh, probably not.

sorry to hear that the bureacuracy refused to discuss the issue. hte 90 minutes definitely places a limit that doesnt have to be there. in the summer the league matches are not still held indoors is it? it sounds like there is a large number of players playing in leagues to begin with. in any case thanks for enlightening me

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 04:22 AM
What a lot of you don't seem to understand is that everyone who plays with these rules understands and accepts the rules before the matches take place. We all know if we are late what could happen. It isn't a gray matter, it is black and white. And yes, crap happens, traffic happens, but the rules are there for many reasons, one of which being *courtesy*! Courtesy to your opponents busy schedules, courtesy to the people who have the match scheduled after you. In the DC metro area, indoor court time is PACKED! We play league matches starting at 9:30pm on a weeknight sometimes because that is the only time we can get the courts! We get our 90 minutes, and that is it!

At least here, this is not about 'lower' rated players behaving badly. This is about the rules of the league and abiding by them when you agree to play in the league.

And just because we do play in such a league does not mean we don't also play 'just for fun' at times, and don't even keep score.


Exactly.

Also, the excuse of being stuck in traffic is lame. If my team gets stuck in traffic, how did my opponent manage to get there? The only thing that comes to mind is that they took an alternate route, or more likely, they left much earlier.

The other thing that bears remembering is this: the team suffering the default *chose* not to send an alternate. They decided that their time is worth a lot to them and they opted not to have a teammate waste time coming to the facility to be an alternate. Why should anyone feel sorry for them under these circumstances? Plenty of teams do send alternates to make sure they'll never suffer a default.

BTW, Danman's post isn't silly. The point is that we all labor under rules, and we don't go around cutting our opponents a break in our matches. I mean, if your opponent says "I don't know if your shot was in or out; let's play a let", is there anyone here who would agree to that? Well, why not? Why hide behind the rules rather than play the let and thereby "settle it on the court?" Because the rules are clear and none of us should be disadvantaged because our opponent decides to disregard the rules.

The higher-rated players here at TW claim petty things don't occur at higher levels, but I'm not so sure, what with all the tales about hooking, gamesmanship and testosterone problems I hear about on this board. Maybe someday I'll get to a high level and can judge for myself.

Some things matter (being late for a timed match) and some things don't (being one minute late when there's no court available). When it matters, take the point or the default or whatever it is and don't look back, I say.

spot
03-21-2007, 05:07 AM
Just out of curiosity- out of the people who go by the letter of the law on the default time- who has ever called a foot fault in a match?

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 05:14 AM
I've never called a foot fault. I can barely see the baseline, let alone see if someone's foot touched it before they made contact.

A clock, I can read.

SB
03-21-2007, 05:55 AM
...The higher-rated players here at TW claim petty things don't occur at higher levels, but I'm not so sure, what with all the tales about hooking, gamesmanship and testosterone problems I hear about on this board. Maybe someday I'll get to a high level and can judge for myself. ...

The incident I referenced took place at 4.5 ... but generally speaking, I think such things DO go on more often at lower levels, for several reasons.

First, at 4.5 and 5.0, there are often not that many players. You play the same people all the time, socially AND competitively, and often they are friends. So it can be hard to be petty when the recipient is someone you know you'll see over and over. It still happens, but I think it's easier if you aren't going to see them twice a week for the next 4 years ...

Also, this is a generalization, so I could be totally off, but many athletes at the higher levels have played tennis (or another sport) at a higher level than NTRP, so it's just not that big a deal. Many of the 3.0s might be new to tennis or even new to competing, so USTA league is bigger in the scheme of things. I mean, I think we had five women on our team last season who had played Div 1 college tennis, and a few others who played another sport at that level. Some players are just a little burned out on the whole tennis/competition thing, after training and competing for so many years. It's more of a social event to them ... it isn't "cool" to care too much about NTRP!

Now, that's not to say there aren't many very competitive, driven players at these levels, and it's entirely possible that these observations have their exact correlation at lower levels, but this is my impression. My mother has captained a 3.0 team for about a million years, so that's one place I hear those stories.

Ace
03-21-2007, 06:00 AM
The point is that we all labor under rules, and we don't go around cutting our opponents a break in our matches. I mean, if your opponent says "I don't know if your shot was in or out; let's play a let", is there anyone here who would agree to that? Well, why not?


If your opponent doesn't see your ball, but you see it clearly as out, do you let them say it was good?
If I have a good view of the line, and I know my ball was out, I will tell my opponent the ball was out. I simply do not want to win a point that I know I didn't really win.

And I don't want to win a match I didn't play.

I agree with DANMAN, I want to get better at tennis, not just win. I actually prefer to play on teams that arent as strong because I know I will get more playing time. I don't care if my team wins, I only care how well I play.

A.Davidson
03-21-2007, 06:32 AM
Excellent point, Ace. At my high school, if a point is in question, the point is usually replayed (unless an upperclassman, coach, or trainer was watching and can vouch for one player or the other's call). I also like playing for experience, not just victory. At a match last week, our school had already won by sweeping the 6 singles matches. The other school's players didn't want to play doubles, and neither did their lower-ranked guys want to play exhibitions. I ended up playing three doubles matches in the 8-game set format, winning 2. Doesn't matter whether you win or lose - just get out their and PLAY!

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 06:42 AM
If your opponent doesn't see your ball, but you see it clearly as out, do you let them say it was good?


In my last 6.5 combo match, our opponent slipped and fell preparing to hit a ball my partner had struck to the baseline. Opponent gathered herself, stepped up to serve and called the score with that last shot in our favor. My partner said she saw the last ball as out, and corrected the score.

Me, I saw pinwheeling arms and had no idea whether the ball was in or not, so that was fine by me. We didn't offer to play a let; we went with the rule, even though it cost us a point.

Had my partner not seen the ball, I would have viewed the point as ours. 'Cause that's the rule.

Cindy -- not a big fan of playing lets because someone can't make a line call

tennis-n-sc
03-21-2007, 06:50 AM
Excellent point, Ace. At my high school, if a point is in question, the point is usually replayed (unless an upperclassman, coach, or trainer was watching and can vouch for one player or the other's call). I also like playing for experience, not just victory. At a match last week, our school had already won by sweeping the 6 singles matches. The other school's players didn't want to play doubles, and neither did their lower-ranked guys want to play exhibitions. I ended up playing three doubles matches in the 8-game set format, winning 2. Doesn't matter whether you win or lose - just get out their and PLAY!

OK, does High School count as Adult League and Tournament Talk? Not to make too much over point, but this section was created for the old people because we were overwhelmed in the other sections. Just my two cents.

Ace
03-21-2007, 07:00 AM
OK, does High School count as Adult League and Tournament Talk? Not to make too much over point, but this section was created for the old people because we were overwhelmed in the other sections. Just my two cents.

hahah...there are also adults who post on the junior sections.
I thought his post sounded rather mature.

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 07:09 AM
Heh, heh. It does sound like something of a parallel universe, though. Replaying points unless a coach or upperclassmen happens to be watching the lines to verify line calls?

Definitely not a USTA concept, that. :)

Ace
03-21-2007, 07:14 AM
Well, Cindy, if your team does happen to make it to districts, you will have roving USTA officials that will act as line judges.
And they also call foot faults.

Though, yeah, nobody's replaying any points....hahaha....its "in" or "out".

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 07:24 AM
Trust me. We're not going to districts.

We're going on vacation! :)

Actually, when I played 2.5, the captains as a group had to decide whether to have officiated matches. The captains voted to do it, at a cost of $2 per player for each officiated match.

Each team had one match selected at random for officiating. The official ran the three matches just like a tournament, supervising warm-up, starting play, roving among the three courts.

Because we were noobie 2.5s, she also had to set us straight on a lot of things. My partner was scolded for retrieving a ball between opponent's first and second serve. Another woman was scolded for playing an obviously out serve. I was scolded for receiving on the wrong side following a changeover in tie-break. One line call was overturned.

And my team was declared the winner when we reached 7-5; we were getting ready to continue play, believing that the second set tiebreak was 10 points instead of 7. ("Is the score she just announced 7-5 correct? Yes? Ladies, the match is over. Please come to the net and shake hands.")

raiden031
03-21-2007, 08:11 AM
Here's my philosophy on enforcing rules.

I only enforce rules that otherwise would cause the tennis match be unfair to either me or my opponent. If someone unintentionally violates a rule or violates a rule that is not reasonably going to hurt my game, then I don't feel a need to be a stickler about it.

For instance, I could care less about spectators sitting on a bench on the side of the court as long as they are not interrupting by yelling or screaming, but plenty of people are against it because somehow it ruins their game.

I won't take a default unless I'm likely to run out of time if I don't, because I am very likely to lose the first set and win the next because I'm a slow starter, and running out of time would disadvantage me over my opponents.

If someone makes a bad call that is obvious to me, I will let them have it unless it appears they are doing it on purpose, at which point I will enforce any rules that will cause this behavior to stop.

Obvious I will enforce all scoring rules the best that I can, because if I didn't, the outcome of the match would be skewed because I would be giving my opponent an advantage by giving him extra points or opportunities that I am not getting.

Bottom line, as long as you are playing with sportsmanship, I will not enforce petty rules that have no effect on the outcome of the match.

I think its obnoxious to be a stickler just to show your authority in enforcing the rules. As an analogy, its the same thing as calling the police because you suspect your neighbors might have underage drinkers, when its really none of your business because they aren't doing anything to you. You are just being a good citizen by notifying law enforcement of illegal activities, but if everyone around you hates you because of it, then you had it coming because you are just causing trouble with your pettiness. Another analogy are those people who complain to homeowner's assocations about every little thing their neighbor does, sure its within their rights but most of the time they are just being jerks and on a power trip.

tennis-n-sc
03-21-2007, 08:19 AM
hahah...there are also adults who post on the junior sections.
I thought his post sounded rather mature.

I've never visited the site. I get enough of the kids on the other forums.

tennis-n-sc
03-21-2007, 08:24 AM
Well, Cindy, if your team does happen to make it to districts, you will have roving USTA officials that will act as line judges.
And they also call foot faults.

Though, yeah, nobody's replaying any points....hahaha....its "in" or "out".

Don't know where you go to districts or the last time you went, but in Georgia and South Carolina, there is usually one official for about 30 courts. If there is a problem, a player generally has to go to the tournament directors tent to get an official. The first morning, they "might" be walking the area to make sure players don't exceed the 5" minute warm-up, but generally you are on your own. Thats just been my experience from about 7 years straight of going in one capacity or the other.

tennis-n-sc
03-21-2007, 08:44 AM
Here's my philosophy on enforcing rules.

I only enforce rules that otherwise would cause the tennis match be unfair to either me or my opponent. If someone unintentionally violates a rule or violates a rule that is not reasonably going to hurt my game, then I don't feel a need to be a stickler about it.

I believe you'll find that as you go along in tennis, all the rules are there for a very specific reason, most likely as result of past problems.


For instance, I could care less about spectators sitting on a bench on the side of the court as long as they are not interrupting by yelling or screaming, but plenty of people are against it because somehow it ruins their game.

Believe me, you will change your mind on this sooner or later. I've seen some real serious issues develop because of spectators located at courside.

I won't take a default unless I'm likely to run out of time if I don't, because I am very likely to lose the first set and win the next because I'm a slow starter, and running out of time would disadvantage me over my opponents.

Your perogative if you are the captain and it is a team league match. If you merely a player on team, it isn't your decision, usually. The captain may ask your input and may not. It isn't about you, per se, it is about the team. Our league matches are played at one time and generally finish close together. The entire team stays until all matches are complete, providing support for the players remaining on court. I don't think the entire would like to stay another hour or two for one court to finish because a player couldn't reasonably make the match time. The beer would never last that long.

If someone makes a bad call that is obvious to me, I will let them have it unless it appears they are doing it on purpose, at which point I will enforce any rules that will cause this behavior to stop.

Obvious I will enforce all scoring rules the best that I can, because if I didn't, the outcome of the match would be skewed because I would be giving my opponent an advantage by giving him extra points or opportunities that I am not getting.

The rules are there for all to observe while involved in the match. Enforcing is best left to officials. The application of the rules, IMO, should be objective and observed by all as they were intended. It's what makes tennis, well tennis.

Bottom line, as long as you are playing with sportsmanship, I will not enforce petty rules that have no effect on the outcome of the match.

I think its obnoxious to be a stickler just to show your authority in enforcing the rules. As an analogy, its the same thing as calling the police because you suspect your neighbors might have underage drinkers, when its really none of your business because they aren't doing anything to you. You are just being a good citizen by notifying law enforcement of illegal activities, but if everyone around you hates you because of it, then you had it coming because you are just causing trouble with your pettiness. Another analogy are those people who complain to homeowner's assocations about every little thing their neighbor does, sure its within their rights but most of the time they are just being jerks and on a power trip.

I don't think it is our responsibility to try to decide what rules are petty are those that aren't. Playing the game by the rules as it is intended to be played does not distract from sportmanship, it enhances it. Everyone is on the same page, hopefully, and disagreements over rules seldom occur.

Geezer Guy
03-21-2007, 08:55 AM
There have been a lot of good points made about the dafault rule - both pro and con.

The title of this thread is "Would you take a default?".
If I was late to a match - past the "default" time - when I showed up I would apologize to my opponent, award him the default, and request that we play "just for fun". To me, it's no different than if I see my ball OUT on the other side of the net. If I know the ball is OUT, I'll call it out, and lose the point. If I know I'm LATE, I'll default. The only difference is that I'm giving up the match instead of giving up the point.

Now, "Would I take a default" if my opponent offered me one, and I agreed that he was past the time? That would depend. If I'm just playing for me and he's reasonably close to being on time (or has a good excuse) I'd just suggest we play a regular match. However, if I'm playing as part of a team event I would accept his default. I figure I'm obligated to my mates to accept an "ugly" win even though I might prefer a "manly" loss.

Topaz
03-21-2007, 09:02 AM
Another point that was mentioned, but seems to be overlooked...the default doesn't happen when someone is just a few minutes late. It happens after 20 minutes have passed. We're not talking about sitting there with a stopwatch and declaring ourselves winners of a match when someone is five minutes late. When an opponent is that late, and you've only got 90 minutes to get the match in, and there's another match lined up right after you...well, of course there's going to be penalty. That's called *responsibility*!!!

I still take issue with the idea that some of you think those of us who follow the rules are somehow not demonstrating good sportsmanship.

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 09:04 AM
Raiden, I get what you're saying, but it assumes that some (many?) rules are petty. They're not. They provide a clear framework so players needn't argue about what is fair.

Like this bit:

"If someone makes a bad call that is obvious to me, I will let them have it unless it appears they are doing it on purpose, at which point I will enforce any rules that will cause this behavior to stop."

I don't even understand this. If the other player calls your shot out, it is out. There's no me "letting them have it" (presumably you mean you look the other way). It's their call to make, and yours to question if you want.

Me, I think a lot of problems on court tend to occur because someone tries to impose his or her personal code of etiquette on opponents.

Which reminds me of a story . . . ('cause I know how much you guys enjoy a peek into the world of low-level tennis :) )

My sister's 3.0 doubles team was in a tight match. A point was in progress when one doubles player fell after hitting a shot. While she was sprawled in the doubles alley, the opponent calmly put away the ball for a winner (hitting it away from the prone player). There was the usual "Are you OK?" Then the opponent claimed the point and therefore the game.

My sister's player *flipped out* and flew into a rage. Her view was that it was unsporting for the opponent to refuse to play a let. They had taken advantage of the situation, and etiquette demanded that they be good sports and play the point again. Claiming a point her partner was in no position to contest was chicken-bleep. The opponents refused. Big old huge fight, with people threatening not to finish the match unless they got their way.

Yup, subjective expectations of etiquette and courtesy cause a lot of very preventable problems. I'd prefer to go with the rules. The rules I understand.

Topaz
03-21-2007, 09:07 AM
Me, I think a lot of problems on court tend to occur because someone tries to impose his or her personal code of etiquette on opponents.




Oh, I think we have a winner!

Ace
03-21-2007, 09:10 AM
Don't know where you go to districts or the last time you went, but in Georgia and South Carolina, there is usually one official for about 30 courts. If there is a problem, a player generally has to go to the tournament directors tent to get an official. The first morning, they "might" be walking the area to make sure players don't exceed the 5" minute warm-up, but generally you are on your own. Thats just been my experience from about 7 years straight of going in one capacity or the other.

Well, somehow, for the past couple of years, they always seem to end up on my court for quite a while for at least one or two matches. Dunno why....we don't call for them, and I've never had any kind of fight over a line call. Guess I'm just "lucky".

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 09:12 AM
Another point that was mentioned, but seems to be overlooked...the default doesn't happen when someone is just a few minutes late. It happens after 20 minutes have passed. We're not talking about sitting there with a stopwatch and declaring ourselves winners of a match when someone is five minutes late. When an opponent is that late, and you've only got 90 minutes to get the match in, and there's another match lined up right after you...well, of course there's going to be penalty. That's called *responsibility*!!!

I still take issue with the idea that some of you think those of us who follow the rules are somehow not demonstrating good sportsmanship.

Here, the default occurs at 10 minutes; I'm surprised your rule is so lenient given that you guys only get 90 minutes. If someone arrives 20 minutes late and is entitled to a 5-minute warm-up, that's a huge chunk of your playing time. What's the penalty for a player who arrives more than 20 minutes late?

If it were up to me, I'd change the penalties in our section. I'd make it:

0-5 min late: Loss of toss and 1 game
6-10 min late: Loss of toss and 2 games
11-30 min late: Loss of toss and loss of first set
31 min late: Default

slice bh compliment
03-21-2007, 10:09 AM
No, I wouldn't take a default and would do whatever I could to ensure we did play. Sure, rules are rules, but if you're playing for the win and not for the love of competing and improving then I think you've got your priorities out of whack.

Harrumph, harrumph, harrumph. Hey, I didn't get a harrumph outta that guy.

Seriously, great post, as usual, Andrew.

I have won by default in a tournament. You can't do much about it. Just stretch, get a light hit in and prepare for the next match. Winning by default is a crappy feeling, but not nearly as bad as being the poor guy who went to the wrong club. That is embarrassing.

I've been late for a match, too, due to an accident on the road. I was not alone -- other players were late, too. They had me start the match with no warm up and a 0-3 deficit. Not pleasant but frankly, sort of lenient. I won the match in three. I felt the deficit almost helped me in a weird way.

An ex-gf and I could have easily defaulted our late-*** opponents in a mixed dubs league match in one of the few 'leagues' I've ever played in. It was a BMW open mixed deal and the people were all really cool. We'd all known eachother a while and they were only like twenty minutes late. We played it anyway -- we had the court time and my partner and I both felt it was the right thing to do. They thanked us for being gracious, but in a way we were also being selfish (for the match time) and 'cause I would want others to treat us the same way. Kind of the Golden Rule there.

Someone mentioned how it is the height of arrogance to show up late for a match. Point taken, but, I think it is even more arrogant to demand the "official win", play tennis anyway and call it an "EXHIBITION". Hhhhhahahhhahaha, 'an exhibition', like we're selling tickets or something!

Time issues are tough. I have no experience with it, but if I may weigh in, I believe some out of the box thinking is needed. Like maybe if someone's late, instead of just a slap on the wrist 0-3 deficit, just award the first set to the player who was on time. Stiff, but considerate. Then it's just a two set deal (so the club pro is happy), and the late guy wins if he gets both. I've never actually done this, but it seems fair to me.

kylebarendrick
03-21-2007, 10:32 AM
Here is the NorCal clarification for our 15-minute default rule. While I agree with Raiden.Kaminari that this seems to set the priorities correctly (sportsmanship and playing matches when possible), it does create a grey area in the rules that can lead to arguments.

Clarification from NorCal: It is not the intent of this rule to allow a captain to claim a win when the opposing team is racing from the parking lot to the courts at minute 16! Captains are encouraged to be flexible and accommodating whenever possible. It is the responsibility of all players to be on time for a match, and it is the home captain's responsibility to keep things running on time (particularly true on heavily used courts and at facilities with many teams), but whenever possible, captains are encouraged to demonstrate good sportsmanship by treating their guests as they would like to be treated in return.

For those comparing footfaults and line calls to defaulting matches, I'd argue that there is a huge difference between the rules governing the play of a match and the decision not to play a match at all. The purpose of playing a tennis match is to play a tennis match! When possible, people should do so. Absolutely if you have a timed match then you don't have the flexibility to go easy on default times. But if you have the players and courts available for an "exhibition", then you should have played the match.

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 10:41 AM
But if you have the players and courts available for an "exhibition", then you should have played the match.

I *so* totally disagree with this. Totally.

Why should I be hurried through a timed match (I am a slow player; I do poorly when rushed) because someone else was late?

The purpose of the exhibition match is sportsmanship. It helps make the best of a bad situation. If my tardy opponent wants to tuck her tail between her legs and slink home rather than do her best to salvage the situation *she* created, fine.

The tardy opponent should feel lucky that the prompt players don't just go home the minute the default is recorded, depriving them of the opportunity of apologizing all over the place and playing socially.

I wonder if Topaz will back me up on this . . . :) :)

tennis-n-sc
03-21-2007, 10:42 AM
Well, somehow, for the past couple of years, they always seem to end up on my court for quite a while for at least one or two matches. Dunno why....we don't call for them, and I've never had any kind of fight over a line call. Guess I'm just "lucky".

You must be playing close to the tent.:)

Ace
03-21-2007, 10:53 AM
You must be playing close to the tent.:)

They probably want to avoid confrontation all together, so they hide out on the courts where there isn't any.

kylebarendrick
03-21-2007, 11:09 AM
FWIW, I specifically stated (or at least meant to) that a timed match is a different animal. I wouldn't want to start one late and feel time pressure unless I had to. I was referring to other cases where there were no time constraints. I believe this is the intent behind the NorCal rule.

I *so* totally disagree with this. Totally.

Why should I be hurried through a timed match (I am a slow player; I do poorly when rushed) because someone else was late?

The purpose of the exhibition match is sportsmanship. It helps make the best of a bad situation. If my tardy opponent wants to tuck her tail between her legs and slink home rather than do her best to salvage the situation *she* created, fine.

The tardy opponent should feel lucky that the prompt players don't just go home the minute the default is recorded, depriving them of the opportunity of apologizing all over the place and playing socially.

I wonder if Topaz will back me up on this . . . :) :)

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 11:36 AM
Oh.

OK.

:retracts claws:

Raiden.Kaminari
03-21-2007, 11:52 AM
Just out of curiosity- out of the people who go by the letter of the law on the default time- who has ever called a foot fault in a match?

You aren't supposed to.

Calling foot faults against an opponent is akin to gamesmanship. If the player is blatantly foot faulting, you are supposed to ask a court monitor to do it.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-21-2007, 12:07 PM
The incident I referenced took place at 4.5 ... but generally speaking, I think such things DO go on more often at lower levels, for several reasons.

First, at 4.5 and 5.0, there are often not that many players. You play the same people all the time, socially AND competitively, and often they are friends. So it can be hard to be petty when the recipient is someone you know you'll see over and over. It still happens, but I think it's easier if you aren't going to see them twice a week for the next 4 years ...

Also, this is a generalization, so I could be totally off, but many athletes at the higher levels have played tennis (or another sport) at a higher level than NTRP, so it's just not that big a deal. Many of the 3.0s might be new to tennis or even new to competing, so USTA league is bigger in the scheme of things. I mean, I think we had five women on our team last season who had played Div 1 college tennis, and a few others who played another sport at that level. Some players are just a little burned out on the whole tennis/competition thing, after training and competing for so many years. It's more of a social event to them ... it isn't "cool" to care too much about NTRP!

Now, that's not to say there aren't many very competitive, driven players at these levels, and it's entirely possible that these observations have their exact correlation at lower levels, but this is my impression.

I have to agree fully with your assessment.

Most of the higher NTRP players used to play open at some time, and realize there is no greater joy than to challenge oneself to do better.

However, I think this all depends on the location.

Where Cindysphinx is posting from, it sounds like indoor tennis. I'm posting from SoCal, and I know the rules are similar in NorCal. Unlike our matches (where we can reschedule if we run out of court time), it doesn't sound like there are any flexibility where Cindysphinx is. Also, the rules are imposed on us by the ALC (adult league committee), but it sounds like there is some sort of captain's agreement prior to league start for Cindysphinx's area.

I guess "do unto others, as you would have them do unto you" is being implemented there, since many players/captains in the area are willing to take the default.

I don't think I'll be moving to the East Coast anytime soon.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-21-2007, 12:34 PM
Raiden, I get what you're saying, but it assumes that some (many?) rules are petty. They're not. They provide a clear framework so players needn't argue about what is fair.

As you may have noticed though, some rules can be more flexible, especially for unofficiated matches. Over the years, the ITF rules have actually been shortened and simplified, because there was a hope that "common sense" would prevail.

Like this bit:
"If someone makes a bad call that is obvious to me, I will let them have it unless it appears they are doing it on purpose, at which point I will enforce any rules that will cause this behavior to stop."

I don't even understand this. If the other player calls your shot out, it is out. There's no me "letting them have it" (presumably you mean you look the other way). It's their call to make, and yours to question if you want.
While this is true, I'm pretty sure that raiden031 is referring to blatantly bad calls. Such as, you're playing doubles, and your opponent is calling single lines. The rules are pretty clear here ... call a court monitor.


Me, I think a lot of problems on court tend to occur because someone tries to impose his or her personal code of etiquette on opponents.
So true. In fact, this was the case in another thread. (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=121595) I had to stop myself from posting on that thread, since the original poster apparently doesn't follow the code or the ITF rules of tennis. The OP claims to be a 4.5 level player, but must be a player that started tennis later in life. As a junior, we were drilled never to behave the way he did.

Which reminds me of a story . . . ('cause I know how much you guys enjoy a peek into the world of low-level tennis :) )

My sister's 3.0 doubles team was in a tight match. A point was in progress when one doubles player fell after hitting a shot. While she was sprawled in the doubles alley, the opponent calmly put away the ball for a winner (hitting it away from the prone player). There was the usual "Are you OK?" Then the opponent claimed the point and therefore the game.

My sister's player *flipped out* and flew into a rage. Her view was that it was unsporting for the opponent to refuse to play a let. They had taken advantage of the situation, and etiquette demanded that they be good sports and play the point again. Claiming a point her partner was in no position to contest was chicken-bleep. The opponents refused. Big old huge fight, with people threatening not to finish the match unless they got their way.

Yup, subjective expectations of etiquette and courtesy cause a lot of very preventable problems. I'd prefer to go with the rules. The rules I understand.

All you have to do in this instance is whip out a copy of Friend at Court. Rules were pretty much clearly spelled out for this case though ... I hope your sister didn't have that player back on her team again.

It reminds me of a story of a guy playing open against me a few years back, and is the only time I took a default:

My opponent runs into the net after unsuccessfully chasing down a drop shot. He failed to declare himself touching the net, even though he used the net to prevent himself from falling. Luckily, an official was present, and said it was my point. He started arguing with the official since he said he was able to hit the ball over (which bounced after he touched the net, but I still put away anyway).

The official implemented PPS. After a few minutes, awarded me a point, which further infuriated the player. At the time, I was thinking, this guy must admire John McEnroe. After a few more minutes of his tirade, the official awarded me a game. The guy still refused to back down and play the match. A few more minutes, awarded me the set. After a few more minutes of his arguing, awarded me the match. I quickly left the court since things were pretty ugly, and another match was about to start.

I looked up the player later ... he was suspended for a year for unsportsmanlike conduct and not knowing the rules. At another tournament, I ran into the official, who told me the player was a known troublemaker, which was why he came to watch my match. Go figure.

NoBadMojo
03-21-2007, 02:09 PM
The incident I referenced took place at 4.5 ... but generally speaking, I think such things DO go on more often at lower levels, for several reasons.

First, at 4.5 and 5.0, there are often not that many players. You play the same people all the time, socially AND competitively, and often they are friends. So it can be hard to be petty when the recipient is someone you know you'll see over and over. It still happens, but I think it's easier if you aren't going to see them twice a week for the next 4 years ...

Also, this is a generalization, so I could be totally off, but many athletes at the higher levels have played tennis (or another sport) at a higher level than NTRP, so it's just not that big a deal. Many of the 3.0s might be new to tennis or even new to competing, so USTA league is bigger in the scheme of things. I mean, I think we had five women on our team last season who had played Div 1 college tennis, and a few others who played another sport at that level. Some players are just a little burned out on the whole tennis/competition thing, after training and competing for so many years. It's more of a social event to them ... it isn't "cool" to care too much about NTRP!

Now, that's not to say there aren't many very competitive, driven players at these levels, and it's entirely possible that these observations have their exact correlation at lower levels, but this is my impression. My mother has captained a 3.0 team for about a million years, so that's one place I hear those stories.

these are very good points i think. when you get up into the 5.0's and such, you see the same guys all the time..the circle becomes small.....some are friendly, some wont even talk to you, some are weird, some are friends to have frosty beverages with afterwards even if you lost that day, most are nice, but almost all of them are reasonable and fair and good sportsmen..it doesnt take long to get a rep..especially a bad one, and you find out quickly if there is a hooker <or whatever> in the lot..if there is, they tend to not stick around for very long, and if they do, they get put in their place

the irony is that at advanced levels getting hooked on a call at the wrong time (never seems to happen at a good time) is far more important at advanced levels than at less advanced levels..yet there seems to always be so much drama and crap being slung with people looking to get an edge in an unsportsmanlike way with these handicapped 3.5 usta things....individual points mean more at higher levels, and sometime a set can turn on a single point.; at 3.5's and such, you are always getting lots of free or cheap points from your opponents, so easy to make up for a bad call...but yet, most of the trouble sems to happen at levels where the play should be less serious and more about recreation..go figure

Topaz
03-21-2007, 02:18 PM
Here, the default occurs at 10 minutes; I'm surprised your rule is so lenient given that you guys only get 90 minutes. If someone arrives 20 minutes late and is entitled to a 5-minute warm-up, that's a huge chunk of your playing time. What's the penalty for a player who arrives more than 20 minutes late?

If it were up to me, I'd change the penalties in our section. I'd make it:

0-5 min late: Loss of toss and 1 game
6-10 min late: Loss of toss and 2 games
11-30 min late: Loss of toss and loss of first set
31 min late: Default

A late player is still entitled to their *10* minute warm-up! (You guys only get 5?)

Right now, the rules are as follows:

Zero to three minutes -- no penalty
3:00 - 5:00 minutes -- loss of a game and toss option
5:01 - 10:00 -- loss of 2 games and toss option
10:01 - 20:00 -- loss of set and toss option
more than 20:00 -- loss of match

When the new USTA season starts in April, this is going to be changed to this (I think):
3:00 - 5:00 minutes -- loss of a game and toss option
5:01 - 10:00 -- loss of 2 games and toss option
10:01 - 20:00 -- loss of match

Essentially, skipping the 'loss of set'. The reasoning behind this was that the lost set goes into the computer as a 6-0 set, and that messes with the DNTRP ratings for both sides.


It sounds like the posters critizing those of us who follow these rules play in areas that have their matches outside and/or not timed. We don't have that luxury, ergo the rules.

Cindysphinx
03-21-2007, 02:54 PM
Raiden.Kaminari, we do not have court monitors. That's why the other Raiden's comments didn't make sense to me. If someone is hooking you on line calls around here *in league play,* there's nothing whatever you can do within the rules. You can hook them back or default, I guess.

As for the 3.0 player who flipped out, she was shown the rule (and was experienced enough to know the rule anyway). Her point was that etiquette and sportsmanship required a different result.

raiden031
03-22-2007, 01:10 PM
Raiden.Kaminari, we do not have court monitors. That's why the other Raiden's comments didn't make sense to me. If someone is hooking you on line calls around here *in league play,* there's nothing whatever you can do within the rules. You can hook them back or default, I guess.

As for the 3.0 player who flipped out, she was shown the rule (and was experienced enough to know the rule anyway). Her point was that etiquette and sportsmanship required a different result.

What I meant during my post, was that if someone makes a very obvious bad call (aka. a ball that is clearly IN but they call it OUT), I will allow their call to stand if I believe it was in good faith. The reason being that I'd rather not risk causing a conflict if they truly believe their call was good. But if it becomes apparent that they are doing this on purpose, or if it happens on multiple occasions, then I step it up and start enforcing my right to protest the call.

So in other words, I will let things slide if it means avoiding conflicts and keeping the game fun for both of us, when I know that they aren't doing it on purpose.

Raiden.Kaminari
03-22-2007, 01:19 PM
Court monitors is someone that is asked to supervise a match, as long as they are willing to be neutral.

As a captain, I've been asked to be the court monitor even by my opposing team. The opposing teams know I will take out my own player if I suspect they are cheating or improperly behaving. I don't want the player staining my reputation.

Best way to get back at someone that's intent on cheating you is to retire from the match, or accept a 0-6, 0-6 loss. Strike one ;)

The player who flipped out should realize that she didn't show proper etiquette with her poor sportsmanship.

At another tournament, I fell at a match, put up a floater, which my opponent then hit right at me. I took the hit, my opponent apologized, and I accepted his apology. The rest of the match, my opponent kept apologizing. I kept assuring him that it was OK. Anyway, an official saw what happened, and was impressed at my behavior. He even recommended to the tournament director to gave me a card to be used at the concession stand as a reward for good sportsmanship. I didn't win the match, but I liked the smoothie I got :)