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Moose Malloy
03-21-2007, 03:23 PM
I'm trying to find out the surfaces for all 18 events Laver won in 1969.

according to hops' site Laver won 18 events in 1969, 3 on grass, 5 carpet, 2clay, 6 on outdoor hardcourt, 2 on indoor hardcourt

here are the only events listed on the itf site:

Australian Open-grass
Philadelphia-carpet
Los Angeles-(he won the one held in March, there was another LA event in Sept, so I presume there were different surfaces for the 2 events)
South Africa-outdoor hard
French Open-clay
Wimbledon-grass
Boston-carpet
Fort Worth-outdoor hard
US Open-grass
Wembley-carpet

according to wikepedia these were the rest of the 18 events he won in 1969:

Anaheim
Baltimore(indoor?)
Binghamton
London BBC 2 (4man)
Madrid
New York Madison Square Garden Invitational
Orlando
St. Louis

do you know what the surfaces were for these events? also many of the events that were on the itf site only had 8 men draws, do you know if Philadelphia, Wembley, Boston, Ft Worth & Los Angeles were only 8 player fields in 1969, or are the draws incomplete?

SgtJohn
03-21-2007, 11:47 PM
By the way, does anybody of you know where to find complete calendars, or at least complete records for the great players, in the early Open Era...?? Because, for Laver in 1969, as well as for anybody before 1977, the ATP and ITF website are not complete, to say the least...
Thank you in advance!
Jonathan

urban
03-22-2007, 12:42 AM
Moose and St.John, all these questions are difficult to reconstruct. To the draws: In the World of Tennis yearbooks of 69, mostly only the last 8 of a tournament are listed, so the real number is often difficult to name. The Philadelphia indoor was played by NTL and WCT players (and amateurs, Kodes), so they had a draw of at least 16, maybe more than 20. The same for the Boston US pro (played on a rather slow hard court (Laycolt?)) or the Fort Worth tournament (cement), LA pro (in spring). Other minor tournaments as Binghamton possibly had only NTL players plus a number of selected pros, and maybe 10-12 draws. I know, that Laver won Wim (incl.Smith, Drysdale, Ashe, Newk), Boston (incl. Okker, Rosewall, Newk), Baltimore, Binghamton (both Gonzales in final), St. Louis (Stolle in final), Fort Worth ( incl. Moore,Okker, Rosewall) and USO (Ralston, Emmo, Ashe, Roche) in a row. I assume that the summer tournaments were played on hard courts, maybe Detroit on carpet indoors.

urban
03-22-2007, 08:15 AM
Tournament wins of Laver in 1969 (with reconstructed matches in those events):

1. Australian Brisbane (grass, 64- draw): wins Di Domenico 62,62,63, Emerson 62,64,36,97, Stolle 64,18-16,64, Roche 75,22-20,9-11,16,63, Gimeno 63,64,75;

2.Philadelphia (indoor, 32-draw): included since qf Pasarell 61,63, Rosewall 64,62, Roche 75,64,64;

3.Orlando: f. Rosewall 63,62;

4. LA pro (hard,16+ draw): since qf Ralston 57,62,62, Newcombe 62,64,f Riessen 64,108;

5.Johannesburg (hard,96 draw):Krog 75,64,63, Schwarz 60,63,36,61,McMillan 62,64,62, Hewitt 62,64,62, Drysdale 61,16,61,62, Okker 63,108,63;

6.Anaheim, f. Ron Holmberg 31-16,31-28 (VASS scoring);

7. New York MSG (indoor): f. Emerson 62,46,61;

8 Wembley BBC II (indoor, 4 men event): Okker, Rosewall 86,60;

9 RG (clay, 128-draw): Watanabe 61,61,61, Crealy 36,79,62,62,64, Marzano 61,60,86, Smith 64,62,64, Gimeno 36,62,64,64, Okker 46,60,62,64, Rosewall 64,63,64;

10 Wim (grass, 128-draw): Pietrangeli 61,62,62, Lall 36,46,63,60,60, Leschly 63,63,63, Smith 64,62,79,36,63, Drysdale 64,62,63, Ashe 26,62,97,60, Newcombe 64,57,64,64;

11 Boston (hard, 32-draw): incl. since qf Okker 63,63,108, Rosewall 63,57,62,63, Newcombe 75, 62,46, 61;

12 St. Louis f. Stolle 75,36,75;

13 Binghamton f. Gonzales 61,62;

14 Fort Worth (hard, 16+ draw): incl. since qf Moore 46,86,63, Okker 26,63,62, Rosewall 63,62;

15 Baltimore f. Gonzales 63,36,75,46,86;

16 USO (Grass, 128-draw): Garcia 62,64,62, Pinto-Bravo 62,75,64, Fillol 86,61,62, Ralston 64,46,46,62,63, Emerson 46,86,13-11,64, Ashe 86,63,14-12, Roche 79,61,62,62;

17 London, Wembley (indoor, 32-draw):incl. since qf Taylor 16-14,108, Okker 86,62, Roche 64,61,63;

18 Madrid (indoor): f. Taylor 63,62.

Hops
03-23-2007, 02:13 PM
Moose, the surfaces for Laver 1969 are no more than educated guesses on my part. My source for the titles was Urban.

on that note, Urban do you have any record of Laver losing a final in 1969? When Federer ran off 24 straight final wins the usual cite for the old record was Borg/Mac, 12 IIRC. But if Laver never lost a final in 1969 ...

Moose Malloy
03-23-2007, 02:22 PM
thanks hops & urban. I did some research, combining the atp & itf sites, & it is interesting that there were virtually no grasscourt warmups prior to the US Open when it was on grass(belying this whole, 'in Laver's time grass was a common surface' theory that so many seem to believe today, including commentators)

according to the itf site(which is incomplete, but certainly has more than the atp site), Laver lost (at least) 4 finals in '69, so I doubt he equaled Borg/Mac.

urban
03-24-2007, 03:50 AM
On the basis of Laver's autobiography 'Education of a Tennis Player' (with Bud Collins) of 1971, Laver lost 5 finals in 1969: 4 in Jan. and Febr. to Tony Roche (Sydney NSW open, Auckland, Hollywood, Fl., Oakland) and 1 to A. Gimeno in a pro event at Barcelona in Nov. He was 4-5 against Roche in 69, with Roche winning in addition to his 4 final wins from the beginning of the year a third place match at Amsterdam in May. But in the important events (AO, Philadelphia, USO and Wembley British indoor) Laver always won. Its to be noted, that Laver did play (and win events) in all months in 1969 from January to December without interruption. After having won the Grand Slam and 16 events overall (out of 24) until USO at the beginning of September, he had a letdown, winning only 2 out of 7 events until December 69.

Moose Malloy
03-24-2007, 01:28 PM
urban,
I'm reading a book by Ellworth Vines, he often sites results of various pro matches. He mentions that Gonzales beat Laver in 2 pro events in '68, do you know the scores & events? thanks!

urban
03-24-2007, 02:29 PM
According to McCauley's book Laver and Gonzales, both members of the NTL group met 7 times in 1968, including 3rd place playoffs and one set matches, with Laver leading 5-2. One of Gonzales wins was a 3rd place win in a set at Hollywood, Fl., another a f win at LA with no score noted. Laver won at Buenos Aires f, a 3rd place playoff at Bogota, a sf at Wembley BBC 2, and two sf at RG at French Open and French Pro. In 69 i can track 4 matches including one night stands, with Laver leading 4-0. In 1970 Laver lost a round robin match at the Champions Classics to Gonzales, but beat him in the semis to win the title (over Rosewall) and 35.000 $. Gonzales won at Las Vegas, Laver at Vancouver that year. All these scores could be incomplete. Before 1968 the (maybe incomplete) head to head is something like 22-12 for Laver.

Hops
04-01-2007, 06:43 PM
On the basis of Laver's autobiography 'Education of a Tennis Player' (with Bud Collins) of 1971, Laver lost 5 finals in 1969: 4 in Jan. and Febr. to Tony Roche (Sydney NSW open, Auckland, Hollywood, Fl., Oakland) and 1 to A. Gimeno in a pro event at Barcelona in Nov. He was 4-5 against Roche in 69, with Roche winning in addition to his 4 final wins from the beginning of the year a third place match at Amsterdam in May. But in the important events (AO, Philadelphia, USO and Wembley British indoor) Laver always won. Its to be noted, that Laver did play (and win events) in all months in 1969 from January to December without interruption. After having won the Grand Slam and 16 events overall (out of 24) until USO at the beginning of September, he had a letdown, winning only 2 out of 7 events until December 69.


thanks urban, do you happen to have linescores for Laver losses? And do you have any other 1969 final scores? My database for 1969:

Australian Open Rod Laver d. Andres Gimeno 6-3 6-4 7-5
Philadelphia Rod Laver d. Tony Roche 7-5 6-4 6-4
Orlando Rod Laver d. Ken Rosewall 6-3 6-2
Los Angeles Rod Laver d. Marty Riessen 6-4 10-8
Johannesburg Rod Laver d. Tom Okker 6-3 10-8 6-3
Anaheim Rod Laver d. Ron Holmberg 31-16 31-28
New York MSG Rod Laver d. Roy Emerson 6-2 4-6 6-1
Monte Carlo Tom Okker d. John Newcombe 8-10 6-1 7-5 6-3
London Indoor Rod Laver d. Ken Rosewall 8-6 6-0
Hamburg Tony Roche d. Tom Okker 6-1 5-7 8-6 7-5
Rome John Newcombe d. Tony Roche 6-3 4-6 6-2 5-7 6-3
Barcelona Manuel Orantes d. Manuel Santana 6-4 7-5 6-4
Roland Garros Rod Laver d. Ken Rosewall 6-4 6-3 6-4
Wimbledon Rod Laver d. John Newcombe 6-4 5-7 6-4 6-4
Boston Rod Laver d. John Newcombe 7-5 6-2 4-6 6-1
St. Louis Rod Laver d. Fred Stolle 7-5 3-6 7-5
Indainapolis (USCC) Zeljko Franulovic d. Arthur Ashe 8-6 6-3 6-4
Binghamton Rod Laver d. Pancho Gonzales 6-1 6-2
Cincinnati Cliff Richey d. Allan Stone
Gstaad Roy Emerson d. Tom Okker 6-1 12-14 6-4 6-4
Fort Worth Rod Laver d. Ken Rosewall 6-3 6-2
Hilversum Tom Okker d. Roger Taylor 10-8 7-9 6-4 6-4
Canadian Open Cliff Richey d. Earl Butch Buchholz 6-4 5-7 6-4 6-0
Baltimore Rod Laver d. Pancho Gonzales 6-3 3-6 7-5 4-6 8-6
US Open Rod Laver d. Tony Roche 7-9 6-1 6-2 6-2
Los Angeles Richard Pancho Gonzales d. Cliff Richey 6-0 7-5
British Indoor Rod Laver d. Tony Roche 6-4 6-1 6-3
Madrid Indoor Rod Laver d. Roger Taylor 6-3 6-2
Paris Indoor Tom Okker d. Earl Butch Buchholz 8-6 6-2 6-1
Stockholm Nikola Pilic d. Ilie Nastase 6-4 4-6 6-2

joe sch
04-06-2007, 05:43 AM
Tournament wins of Laver in 1969 (with reconstructed matches in those events):

1. Australian Brisbane (grass, 64- draw): wins Di Domenico 62,62,63, Emerson 62,64,36,97, Stolle 64,18-16,64, Roche 75,22-20,9-11,16,63, Gimeno 63,64,75;

2.Philadelphia (indoor, 32-draw): included since qf Pasarell 61,63, Rosewall 64,62, Roche 75,64,64;

3.Orlando: f. Rosewall 63,62;

4. LA pro (hard,16+ draw): since qf Ralston 57,62,62, Newcombe 62,64,f Riessen 64,108;

5.Johannesburg (hard,96 draw):Krog 75,64,63, Schwarz 60,63,36,61,McMillan 62,64,62, Hewitt 62,64,62, Drysdale 61,16,61,62, Okker 63,108,63;

6.Anaheim, f. Ron Holmberg 31-16,31-28 (VASS scoring);

7. New York MSG (indoor): f. Emerson 62,46,61;

8 Wembley BBC II (indoor, 4 men event): Okker, Rosewall 86,60;

9 RG (clay, 128-draw): Watanabe 61,61,61, Crealy 36,79,62,62,64, Marzano 61,60,86, Smith 64,62,64, Gimeno 36,62,64,64, Okker 46,60,62,64, Rosewall 64,63,64;

10 Wim (grass, 128-draw): Pietrangeli 61,62,62, Lall 36,46,63,60,60, Leschly 63,63,63, Smith 64,62,79,36,63, Drysdale 64,62,63, Ashe 26,62,97,60, Newcombe 64,57,64,64;

11 Boston (hard, 32-draw): incl. since qf Okker 63,63,108, Rosewall 63,57,62,63, Newcombe 75, 62,46, 61;

12 St. Louis f. Stolle 75,36,75;

13 Binghamton f. Gonzales 61,62;

14 Fort Worth (hard, 16+ draw): incl. since qf Moore 46,86,63, Okker 26,63,62, Rosewall 63,62;

15 Baltimore f. Gonzales 63,36,75,46,86;

16 USO (Grass, 128-draw): Garcia 62,64,62, Pinto-Bravo 62,75,64, Fillol 86,61,62, Ralston 64,46,46,62,63, Emerson 46,86,13-11,64, Ashe 86,63,14-12, Roche 79,61,62,62;

17 London, Wembley (indoor, 32-draw):incl. since qf Taylor 16-14,108, Okker 86,62, Roche 64,61,63;

18 Madrid (indoor): f. Taylor 63,62.


Urban, your knowledge and research for the court kings like Rocket is much appreciated ! I want more surfers to benefit from this info so added to my webpage and gave you a ref.

Thanks, Joe
Ref:
http://www.woodtennis.com/laver/

Moose Malloy
04-09-2007, 09:07 AM
And do you have any other 1969 final scores? My database for 1969:


Here is another one:

1969 Queen's Final, Newcombe def Stolle 6-3,22-20

its on both the atp & itf sites

http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/vault/draws.asp?TournamentID=311&TournamentYear=1969

Laver lost 6-4,6-4 to Newcombe in the semis of Queen's that year.

Moose Malloy
04-09-2007, 01:13 PM
thanks urban, do you happen to have linescores for Laver losses? And do you have any other 1969 final scores? My database for 1969:


from the itf site

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/tournaments/tournamentsearch.asp

Sydney Roche d Laver 64 46 97 1210
Melbourne Smith d Ashe 1412 68 63 86
Auckland Roche d Laver 61 64 46 63
Miami Roche d Laver 63 97 64
Oakland Roche d Laver 46 64 119
New York Gimeno d Ashe 61 62 36 68 97
Caracas Koch d Cox 86 63 26 64
Barranquilla Nastase d Kodes 64 64 810 26 63
Bournemouth Newcombe d Hewitt 68 63 57 64 64
Berlin Moore d Drysdale 16 61 75 68 75
Japan Okker d Emerson 63 65
Brussels Okker d Franulovic 64 16 62 62
Dutch Open Okker d Gimeno 64 63
Bristol Rosewall d Barthes 810 63 61
Bastad Santana d Tiriac 86 64 61
Dublin Hewitt d Pilic 63 62
Aix-en-Provence Emerson d ELSCHENBROICH 63 64 86
Milwaukee Okker d Riessen 63 64
Portschach Emerson d Drysdale 63 36 63
Newport Okker d Ralston 46 65 62
Chicago Rosewall d Buchholz 63 64
Atlanta Buchholz d Newcombe 64 57 64 57 62
Las Vegas Gonzales d Ashe 60 62 64
Tucson Roche d Okker 97 61
Buenos Aires Jauffret d Franulovic 36 62 64 63

Thought it was interesting that there were 28 best of 5 set finals in 1969(not counting the 4 majors), all without tiebreaks.

Moose Malloy
04-11-2007, 02:33 PM
urban, I read that in May '64, Gonzales won the US Pro Indoor, his first event in 3 years, beating Laver, Hoad, & Rosewall back to back. Is this true? Do you know any scores of these matches?

urban
04-12-2007, 10:19 AM
Gonzales won the US indoor at White Plains in 1964, beating Laver 16,63,63, Hoad 68,63,64, and Rosewall 57,36,108,119,86.Results according to Joe McCauleys book. It was not Gonzales first tournament in 3 years. In 1963 he had played very sporadically, losing first round of the US pro at Forest Hills, won by reigning pro champ Rosewall. In 1964, Laver had beaten Gonzales in the College Park Champs a week before White Plains. Gonzales had a good 1964 season, ranking Nr.3 pro behind Laver and Rosewall with 3 important tournament wins, who were quite equal overall with 8 resp. 7 important wins, with Laver having the better head-to head (12-3). Gonzales lost the US pro final at Boston on a damp court in 4 (Bud Collins describes this match in 'Total tennis' ), and the Wembley sf also in 4, both to Laver, the french pro sf to Rosewall. Thanks, Joe Sch, Moose and Hops for Your input and interest, i will try to register Lavers results in 69 and 70, as i can find them, soon here.

Gizo
05-21-2007, 04:17 AM
Speaking of Rod Laver and his titles, what do you guys think is the most accurate source with regards to how many open era titles he won? The ATP website are crediting him with 39 titles, the ITF say 47, tennis28 say 52 and Total Tennis say 54. There seems to be a lot of confusion.

According to the ITF, his open era title breakdown is as follows:
1975 - WCT Puerto Rico, WCT La Costa, WCT Sao Paulo, WCT Caracas, WCT Orlando
1974 - WCT Philadelphia, WCT Palm Desert, WCT Tokyo, WCT Houston, Las Vegas, Bretton Woods
1973 - WCT Miami, WCT Richmond, WCT Toronto, Hong Kong, Sydney Indoor
1972 - WCT Richmond, WCT Philadelphia, WCT Toronto, WCT Houston, WCT Denver
1971 - Rome (CL), WCT Fort Worth, GP/WCT San Francisco, WCT Bogota
1970 - Sydney, WCT St Louis, GP/WCT Louisville (CL), WCT Fort Worth, South Orange, Los Angeles, WCT Vancouver, Wembley (IC)
1969 - Australian Open (G), Philadelphia, Los Angeles, South African Open (H), French Open (CL), Wimbledon (G), Boston (OC), Fort Worth, U.S. Open (G), Wembley
1968 - Wimbledon (G), Los Angeles

urban
05-21-2007, 08:40 AM
There is indeed a lot of confusion about the open era numbers. It is to say, that in 1968-71 many tournaments were not really 'open', that means open to amateurs and pros, but pro only events. In 1968 only up to ten tournaments were really open. The 47 is more accurate, but the ITF stats ignore important tournaments wins in 1968 like Boston US pro or RG French pro, as well as smaller events on the pro circuit. Despite an eye injury begin 68 and a wrist injury, sustained shortly after Wimbledon, Laver won up to 11 in 68 titles including pro only events. In 69 he won 18, as listed above, and in 1970 13 (plus a four man event in Germany). For 1970, the ITF forgot the South African Open (while they listed it in 69), as well as Philadelphia US pro indoor,Queens, the Champions Classic with final in MSG, and Toronto (or Montreal) Canadian open on clay. Some of these, which were open big draw (up to 128) events (except the pro classic, which included the 10 best pros), are listed on the ATP webside.

Gizo
05-21-2007, 09:29 AM
Thanks a lot for your helpful reply Urban :) . Am I right in thinking that you were Urbande on the old BBC board?

Gizo
05-21-2007, 10:03 AM
I'm guessing that tennis28 got their total of 52 titles by combining the Laver's titles listed on the ATP and ITF websites, which gives 51, plus adding his 1970 South African Open title.

urban
05-21-2007, 11:18 AM
Yes and yes.And the 54 come, if you count US pro and French pro in 68. Also, Laver won at Wembley in spring 1971, which is listed on the ATP count. Both don't count the Champions Classic in 70 and 71, a series of winner take all matches with a final at MSG in New York, which was by far the richest event in those years with the best pro competeing. Laver won both times, in 71 he won all his winner take all matches to gain 160000 $ in prize money.

Moose Malloy
05-22-2007, 01:10 PM
urban, I have questions about the French Pro in '68, was it on clay? how many players were in the draw? who did laver beat in the final(& what was the score)?

thanks

urban
05-22-2007, 11:22 PM
Yes, Moose. The 68 French pro, the last of its kind, was played on clay at RG begin July, one week after Wimbledon. The event has a tradition going back to the 30s, and was played mostly in October at RG. Because of the cold weather, the pros transferred it to the Coubertin indoor stadium 1963-1967. The event in 68 had a 32 draw, in fact there were some 24 pros, was best of five all the way,and brought together the two pro groups of the time, the NTL and WCT (the WCT players hadn't played the French open at RG 2 months earlier). Laver beat Newcombe in the final 6-3,6-3, 6-2 or something.Newcombe had beaten Rosewall in the quarters. Interesting, that Laver won Wimbledon and a premier clay event in one week, a thing only Federer did, too, in 2005, when he won Gstaad.