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PusherMan
09-11-2004, 11:13 AM
Weak and cowardly individuals hit the US hard this day three years ago. I still remember the day perfectly. Where I was. How I found out. How ****ed I was...still am. I'm sure other posters feel similar.

I can't help but get the feeling many have forgotten. We haven't really been hit nasty since then, thank goodness, but there will certainly be other attacks. Freedom ain't free. God bless America and all of you.

Frodo Baggins
09-11-2004, 04:25 PM
What About Russia?? It's been hit by terroist's Recently.. Just think bout all those young school kids losing thiere lives... maybe not like the 9/11 one but still... :roll:

PusherMan
09-11-2004, 05:37 PM
Very sad incident indeed, Ivy, but this is 9/11.

Anyways, I'm a bit surprised how few have weighed in on their feelings about 9/11. I assume most are hanging out in the pro player discussion and talking about the US Open. A good thing. That's what freedom is all about. I certainly hope it's not because people don't care.

David Pavlich
09-11-2004, 07:39 PM
It's one of those things that stick in one's memory. I remember that I was changing classes in 7th grade when I heard that JFK was assassinated. I can still visualize the stairwell sorrounded by classmates as the announcement came over the PA. Stunned silence.

I was at home when the first plane hit. My wife called me and said there was an accident in NYC. I turned on the TV just after the second plane hit. It was, indeed, a turning point in history.

I fear too many have forgotten. Attention spans have grown dangerously short.

David

chad shaver
09-11-2004, 09:31 PM
Nope, haven't forgotten. I was giving a test when a student of mine came in late and told me about the first plane. Between classes, I went into another teacher's classroom to hook her TV up to the school's CNN feed. The moment I hooked the TV up and turned it to the proper channel, the first tower fell. We all just stood and stared.

The thing that gets me about the incident in Russia is that it involved children.

I wonder if they built a basement in Hell for terrorists.

Rickson
09-11-2004, 10:15 PM
I live in New York and I was directly affected by the tragedy of September 11th, 2001. We will never forget.

mlee2
09-12-2004, 02:12 PM
ya, let's remember this tragedy as the tragedyas it was. no more, no less.

I fear not only will people forget it, but certainly during this election season, many will exploit this tragedy.

Camilio Pascual
09-13-2004, 07:30 AM
I felt the theme of the Russian players' comments and the Americans' comments at the US Open was that we are in this tragic war against terrorism together. There was mutual respect and empathy. Russians and Americans I talk to seem very glad for the rapproachment between our countries and hopeful this can result in relative global stability and peace.
"Freedon ain't free." - So true. Nicely said, PusherMan.

Feña14
09-13-2004, 08:44 AM
Just want to let you know that everyone in the UK are thinking about America at this sad time of the year for you.

We will never forget.

tennis-n-sc
09-13-2004, 01:40 PM
Camilio, I was very impressed with the attitudes and comments of the Russian women and have changed my perceptions about them. I thought their comments were from the heart and really offered great insight into their maturity for such young girls. I just don't get the impression many of American players ever think about what is going on in the world.

Liam, thank you for your comments. And thanks to your country for their support. I remember reading about WW II and how unpopular it was with may people in America and Britain, even as it was going on. Sometimes actions have to be taken even though no one wants to, especially those taking the actions. Terrorism is such a hideous act by cowards and it forces those willing to take action.

A great post. It is easy to have the time dull the senses. We all need to be reminded.

magiset
09-16-2004, 06:32 PM
" We all have our memories of 11 September 2001. I was on a plane heading for America. And I remember, as the foreign desk at The Independent told me over the aircraft's satellite phone of each new massacre in the United States, how I told the captain, and how the crew and I prowled the plane to look for possible suicide pilots. I think I found about 13; alas, of course, they were all Arabs and completely innocent. But it told me of the new world in which I was supposed to live. "Them'' and "Us''. "

-- from Robert Fisk's -We Should Not Have Allowed 19 Murderers to Change our World-

Phil
09-16-2004, 07:16 PM
Fisk is a left wing idiot who goes out of his way to slam the US-for anything it does, anytime. We're a much easier target than the murdering dictators that he ignores or defends. Too bad the mob that tried to crush his head in Afghanistan wasn't a tad more quicker.

magiset
09-17-2004, 01:45 PM
Hoping for another death, the death of Robert Fisk (I assume because of his ideas), or perhaps any other innocent person who has an opinion different from your own, seems an incredibly mature and proper thing to do, all things considered.

Phil
09-17-2004, 04:00 PM
Hoping for another death, the death of Robert Fisk (I assume because of his ideas), or perhaps any other innocent person who has an opinion different from your own, seems an incredibly mature and proper thing to do, all things considered.

I don't REALLY hope for anyone's death (other than a few tyrants and terrorists here and there)-it's just a rhetorical device to drive home a point. I'm not so sure Fisk is entirely "innocent". Anyway, I would say to YOU that HIDING behind the words of a "journalist" who, in the guise of a liberal, writes hateful and anti-American (and anti-Semitic) rants is, if not immature, certainly cowardly.

magiset
09-18-2004, 01:38 PM
Another good resource to check out is Arundhati Roy's 'Come September'. On this 'Many Septembers' addresses the other world injustices that occurred on Sept.11, before 2001.

It might make one wonder why they didn't know about them, and perhaps why one didn't (or still doesn't) care also about the larger world community.

magiset
09-18-2004, 02:03 PM
Sorry my last sentence (a bit obtuse) didn't explain it clearly. Roy addresses, for example, Sept. 11, 1973 in Chile, etc. The grief and loses throughout history are great; can we pretend to understand our place in it without historical perspective.

I believe personal narratives and other patriotic emotives without perspective and/or history can only lead to propaganda, more Sept.11s, and more tradegy.

mlee2
09-20-2004, 05:21 AM
Magiset,

Surely from a numerical and statistical standpoint, there have been greater travesties in history from Cambodia to Rwanda to as recent as the situation in Sudan.

Does that make the tragedy on 9/11 any less a tragedy? There is no need to downplay one tragedy to bring attention to others. I see your point that our mainstream media mostly ignores this stuff and yes, that's bad.

On the same point, I've read some of your past posts and you obviously have a liberal viewpoint. Having a bias towards a certain direction (even if it's being a liberal) doesn't make you immune to being fooled by propoganda.

Guys like Fisk and Moore will b!tch and moan about anything and everything without offering any sort of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Please don't tell me you thought M. Moore's 9/11 film was on the money. Any reasonable person wouldn't believe that kind of a=b=c=d=e logic.

And a last point I want to do is defend our military. Structurally and systematically, we are one of the most moral authorities on this planet. You wouldn't believe the amount of money set in the military budget for things like economic restoration, nature cleanup, etc.

My experience in N. Korea and all around the world shows me that although the U.S military isn't perfect, there are far worse states of authority that we can leave the backbone of the world on. I'm a history major and I understand all the travesties the U.S committed, and still yet, there are far worse countries than the U.S.

PugArePeopleToo
09-20-2004, 12:28 PM
Sept. 11, 1973 in Chile etc

Does that mean in every remembrance of US national tragedies by Americans we are obliged to remember other nations suffering as well? I suppose when Chinese reflect on **** of Nanking, they also should reflect on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, otherwise they are at risk of "personal narratives and other patriotic motives without perspective and/or history"?

magiset
09-20-2004, 12:33 PM
melee2,

No downplay intended. I just agree with Arundhati Roy when she said with no malice or belittlement to America after Sept. 11: “Welcome to the World”.

As for ‘liberal’ that words a silly and useless means to comport, marginalize, and categorize an individual. And, of course, no one is immune to propaganda (everything is slanted to a matter of degrees from inception). Critical think, comparison/contrast, and an understanding of history/perspective, etc. should guide one’s views and opinions.

As for Moore, I wish he would have made a real documentary, not just a patchwork primer for baby-boomer democratic voters (sorry for categorizing myself, here; probably a better way to state that one).

Moral. I think not. Would any government have done better in America’s power position? Maybe, maybe not. But I do believe that most people holding 9-5 jobs would do better than the amoral political criminals and sociopaths in office today. Take all the money and extras back out of political office; make it a second job again and maybe then… (a dream deferred indefinitely).

One message is clear to me after this 9/11— if one supports their sons and daughters in the military, bring them ALL home NOW! And stop allowing the government to masturbate patriotic with one hand, while cutting their medical care, money, and benefits when they do come home, if at all. Depleted Uranium poisoning is real, and it is this moral U.S. government everyone will have to thank when another war of soldiers come home wounded and diseased (by their own military) for life (broken and cheated to boot).

PugArePeopleToo
09-20-2004, 02:42 PM
no malice or belittlement to America after Sept. 11: “Welcome to the World”.

You have got to be kidding me, or maybe I should say you cannot be serious. Go read her article titled "The algebra of infinite justice", and then let's discuss malice or belittlement.

Would any government have done better in America’s power position? Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe, maybe not? There is a lot of intellectual dishonesty here. You are into historical perspective, I am sure you can name one dominating empire in the past that is more moral than the US empire.

if one supports their sons and daughters in the military, bring them ALL home NOW!

Did you speak with people in the military and see if this is what they want? If not, I suggest you go your local military base and find out what they want.

magiset
09-20-2004, 08:05 PM
Pug,

It is obvious I have read Arundhati Roy’s stuff, including that article. Why don’t you tell me, or better yet write her about your problems with it. She seems to me a wonderful person; she may even respond to you if you rumble-ramble on.

No dishonesty. Sorry if I wasn’t clear; I meant that IF things were different in our present time and we were not the biggest Superpower (a hypothetical) would another be more humanitarian at this space and time. Who knows. I’m no alternate-universe-scenario prophet. And obviously I can’t compare past cultures with different world populations, technologies, etc. to our modern day one. That would be silly and pointless.

Yes, I have spoken with a number of people in the military and protested with many of their family members also, and many of the men and women who have been over in this illegal occupation feel this way too. Of course, not every single one does. So save me the obvious retort and/or bravado.

Let me ask you some questions. What do you think about Depleted Uranium poisoning? Do you understand why a moral military force would do this to their serving women and men? If not, read Dr. Doug Rokke’s information on this issue. He served as lieutenant with the U.S. Army Preventative Medicine Command during the Gulf War and was also former head of the Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project. You can also write him, and he often replies.

mlee2
09-21-2004, 04:56 AM
Magiset said:

As for ‘liberal’ that words a silly and useless means to comport, marginalize, and categorize an individual.

As far as I know, most "liberals" pride themselves on being called a "liberal." Most dictionaries define "liberal" as being open-minded, generous, and the least susceptible people to dogma and traditions. Isn't that what you claimed was the basis for intelligent discussion?

You make ONE objective bad point about our military and I'm sure there are more but if you want to put this into a historical context (which you have already started), think of any other hegemonic or (overwhelming #1) country/empire that has a smaller history of violence than the U.S. Kind of like the Roger Federer of all nations.

Like I said before, there aren't many (if there even is one) countries that would be this moral given the massive influence and power that the U.S has.

PugArePeopleToo
09-21-2004, 11:00 AM
Magiset,

I don't get it, you brought her into the equation and you were the one who said she holds "no malice or belittlement toward America", and when I challenged that assertion, you defer me to her?

In term of US's morality, the original point was not if the US is absolute in her morality, but the US as an empire using her military power is very moral. I ventured to say the US is more moral than any dominating national powers in human history. Surely from a historical perspective, you can agree or disagree with that. Since you were asking folks to put 9/11 in historical perspective, I think it is also fair for you to judge the US in the same historical perspective. But it appears you believe the US should be judged in absolute. The irony is that one thing the far left and the far right agree on is the US should be held to a higher standard. That is hypocritical and hence intellectually dishonest.

I am not quite sure what is "obvious retort and/or bravado", but I am sure the best way to support our military is not to bring them all home right now. Yes, there are some in the military feel Iraq is an illegal occupation. But the overwhelming majority of people in the military do not share your point of view. So please do not be so presumptuous as to know what is best for them.

What is Doug Rokke's PHD in? Please check it yourself before going about writing "Dr. Doug Rokke", obviously imply some kind of medical credential. But to answer your question, depleted uranium rounds are nasty munitions. They are designed to destroy tanks, and there are evident that when the round impacted, the vapor or dust from it could be poisonous. Of course the Pentagon dispute that and the usual suspects cry bloody murder. However, I'll give the activists the benefit of the doubt that they do indeed spread poison about and, and therefore the US should be more mindful of the environmental and human impact of depleted uranium when killing a tank and the nice people inside. I propose we use neutron bomb. It kills the enemy nice and clean with radiation, it leaves the oil terminals, oops I mean infrastructure intact, and it's radiation is short lived. If you think about it, every bullet has a lead core; does lead poisoning not bother you? Ultimately if you think the US is morally justified to drop A-bombs in Japan then you wouldn't have problem with depleted uranium or any weapon systems. If you think war is immoral, than you would have an axe to grind, not matter what weapon system the US is using.

In closing, I want to say that 9/11 is a tragedy, the fact that Bush Administration made a mess in Iraq does not make it less of a tragedy. If you agree with Arundhati Roy that the US should not use force in Afghanistan, that if only the US was more righteous in her actions we could all live happily ever after, as reasoned in her article "the algebra of infinite justice", you are clueless and naive beyond believe.

magiset
09-21-2004, 02:46 PM
Melee2,

Stop trying to typify me as a liberal; I’m sorry if I don’t fit into your trite, little definitions, but it’s just annoying now, give it up.

My point is that America should try to aspire to greater humanitarian efforts, in deeds not just name. The efforts we are making are by no means good enough; they are appalling considering what we could achieve and do for the world community with our mass resources. When will this apathy of complacency be enough, and the people revolt against it— peacefully as possible. I’m waiting for that day.


Pug,

My quote “no malice or belittlement toward America” is a paraphrase (in an informal post) directly from her speeches, therefore I defer you to her again. An author can best answer their own intentionality. I truly believe this, post-modern enthusiasts may challenge this notion, but I don’t buy post-modernism in general as more then a hermeneutic circle-jerk.

I don’t buy anything as an absolute, that is your poor interpretation from my obviously poor explanation, since you don’t seem to ever understand me, and I know this may be my fault, but I’m tired of this reply, misinterpretation, reply, etc. Believe what you may. I’m too busy for this every day, to time consuming.

You are obviously not aware (maybe too young), but Dr. Doug Rokke is the appropriate title, he works at the University of Illinois at Bloomington, and you don’t need to be a “medical” doctor to have this title. Look him up.

As for the A-bomb(s), I believe it was indeed wrong. Read what Howard Zinn writes on this. Another interesting resource is Thomas Merton’s “The Original Child Bomb”, a long narrative poem, in his collected poems, that reconstructs the accounts of ‘lived’ history around the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. A fine read.

In closing, your “absolute” interpretation of Roy as saying “happily ever after” is just wrong. You sound a lot like Phil here, or an old pos(t)er named Gary Brit.

magiset
09-21-2004, 04:55 PM
My error: UofIn is Bloomington, UofIllinois is Urbana-Champaign.

Need a break from this board now. How 'bout if I say freedom aint free, unless freely taken. Salute your eagle. Don't think for yourselves. Watch more television, while burning more books on the bridges of your noses. Star and stripes for strippers. Amen.

chad shaver
09-21-2004, 05:43 PM
Well, that was...interesting.

Phil
09-21-2004, 05:46 PM
Magic - Since you uttered my name in vain, I'll chime in here although I conciously made an effort not to post here beyond my initial short post. I totally agree with Pug's last sentence as a well-stated summation of the DRIVEL that you have spewed here to date. You don't know me and you don't know my views on this matter, so don't go comparing me to some other poster-i.e. Gary Brit (Let me guess: he's some racist, simple-minded right wing cretin, right?). As you've said more than once, you don't like being pidgeonholed as a "liberal", so it's ironic (or hypocritical) that you're sticking a label on me. If you ever had the inclination, you could read my posts regarding the Iraq War and Bush administration. You might be surprised.

You've obviously spent a lot of time reading and listenting to liberal pacifict types, so your view of the world is extremely skewed, naive and sophmoric. You haven't bothered to study the BACKGROUND in which the events occur, so you sound ignorant. You can refer to Howard Zinn and Thomas Merton all you want, but do you actually have any views of your own? Those historians wrote pre-Osama bin Laden-the game has changed.

Do you have any idea of the beliefs and thoughts of the people who rammed jet airliners into the WTC, the Pentagon and in Pennsylvania? Your pacifist, post-hippie views-a mish mash of "America is bad" crap, is not-will never be elevated as a basis for policy decisions for dealing with these people, because these views are not compatible with national survival. WAKE UP. We're under attack. Iraq is irrelevant to this, I know, but I'm a REALIST. That's my political ideology-you don't sit back when fanatics are trying to knock your door down. To say that ANY military retaliation by the USA is BAD, and that WE ARE AT FAULT FOR 9/11 (that's what you've been saying all along, same as the Saudis, Europeans and the rest of the third world), is a repugnant view worthy of the worst Middle East street scum. But an American? or ANYONE with a moral conscious higher than a suicide bomber? Amazing. You may as well join the dancing and joyful Palestinians who celebrated 9/11 on the W. Bank. You'd be welcome there. Do you know who Neville Chamberlain was? Look him up. "Peace in our time" indeed.

I'll put it to you in the simplest terms possible: There are many bad, bad people out there, people who want to destroy us for who we are and what we believe. These are bitter, fanatical people, who have utter CONTEMPT for any approach other than force. If the US were to rachet up its foreign aid contributions as you suggest, these people would not "soften"-in fact their resentment would increase as they would see this as further "meddling" in their countries' internal affairs. You cannot APPEASE terrorists-you can only kill them. Diplomacy does not work here. To deal effectively with these bad, bad people, we have to use extreme force, and sometimes, unfortunately, try to level the playing field. It will NEVER be completely level, because we have a certain moral code that, despite published abuses and excesses, is, generally, always in effect. Your approach, and Roy's would never work, and that's why you and them are confined to second rate poetry and "contemporary thought" journals with triple digit circulation, weblogs and academia-impotent and shrill voices.

I can go on about the terrorist mentality and Hiroshima and why that had to happen, but this is not the place for it. You really need to study some history and EDUCATE yourself, rather than parroting writers and thinkers who are every bit as close minded and ideological as their right wing counterparts. Consider the Bush administration an anomaly-a group of right wing corporate lackeys who took control of the government and imposed a "neocon" agenda on US foreign policy. This will go away, hopefully, in another four years (I don't see Kerry winning this election). But the terrorists who attacked us will still be here and we will still have to deal FIRMLY with them. That requires thoughtfulness and resolve-not chickensh*t platitudes about how evil WE are.

chad shaver
09-21-2004, 06:08 PM
Phil,

DANG, MAN! :D :o

mlee2
09-21-2004, 07:25 PM
Phil summed it well perfectly. If you don't like being pigeonholed as a "liberal," then why are you constantly quoting and referencing people with hippy/socialist ideologies?

As much as it pains me to say it, watch a bit of Fox News. Although 90% of it is crap, they do make some good points 10% of the time when it concerns what America has to do.

And please stop parroting "liberal" (yes I'm using that word, tuff sh*t) and condescending views that we are ignorant uber-patriots just because we live in a realistic world.

PugArePeopleToo
09-21-2004, 08:56 PM
magiset, let's see now, "Salute your eagle. Don't think for yourselves. Watch more television, while burning more books on the bridges of your noses. Star and stripes for strippers. Amen." Are you being presumptuous again? It appears you are perfectly willing to stereotype me, but when others pinned a label on you, you cried fault. Like I've said hypocritical and intellectually dishonest.

Regarding "When will this apathy of complacency be enough, and the people revolt against it— peacefully as possible. I’m waiting for that day." I mean come on, why wait? We have only to kick in the front door and the whole rotten American edifice will come tumbling down. So comrade Vladimir Illyich Magiset, can I be your Felix Dzerzhinsky?

magiset
09-25-2004, 07:49 PM
Phil and personalities,

Good flames. Very well done, but come on, the old Gary Britt must be one of your internet avatars, you post and flame and use of same punctuation and highlighting and have developed multiple-personalities just like him. Of course many of your other avatars have their own traits as well. A clever mind, but such a useless skill you’re developing.

You’re not in a prison right now are you? You are so angry; it must come from somewhere painful. And you have so much time to devote to this board and your rants; they are always so twisted and extreme, with little moral grounding. And that’s a fine thing.

Of course maybe I’m YOU really, and this forum is OUR little pleasure dome.

Flame me more, big-boy.

Anonymous
09-25-2004, 08:21 PM
"You cannot APPEASE terrorists-you can only kill them."

That's why I, Phil Britt, am joining the armed forces today. I believe in my country, so unless I'm in prison currently (and I'M NOT), it is my duty to go over to Iraq RIGHT NOW and--

"EDUCATE" myself by "kill(ing) them."

And magiset (YA HIPPIE) you should check this out too:

http://www.goarmy.com/contact/how_to_join.jsp

Love,

magiPHIL

magiset
09-25-2004, 08:28 PM
This isn't cool or funny. I don't know WHO stole my user name and password.

O well, time for a new one maybe.

Phil, what's going on?

Anonymous
09-25-2004, 08:53 PM
Magic-

Why NOT let it go? Should it really bother you so much that this person doesn't know what he's talking about? There are many people like that who exist in this world, and if you spent all your time trying to CONVINCE them of their cluelessness, you would die of old age well before you were able to join the ARMY and go over and serve your country, man.

Anonymous
09-25-2004, 09:02 PM
I am an island of reason alone in an ocean of b.s.

but I wonder what my post match interviews would sound like if I were forbidden to use the word "I".

Phil
09-26-2004, 05:28 PM
This isn't cool or funny. I don't know WHO stole my user name and password.

O well, time for a new one maybe.

Phil, what's going on?

Magiset - Not cool or funny...more like pathetic. Some gutless coward used my name in another thread (as Magiphil or something). My guess is that he once posted under another name and said something stupid, I reminded him of this, and as a result of my reminder he felt humiliated or gravely insulted (as if something said on an Internet chat board should have that effect-as I said, pathetic). Now he's decided to follow us around, like a puppy dog. I thought the Board software didn't permit duplicate user names-if it does, then that's something they should probably fix.