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View Full Version : Trade off: Lighter stick = better game but sore wrist


nethugger
04-09-2007, 12:27 PM
After playing with a Volkl Tour 7 (11.4 oz with overgrip) for about 5 years and finally realizing that it is too heavy for my imposing 140 lb. aging body, I demoed a 10.4 oz racquet and discovered that I could actually smash an overhead, something I could not do with any power with the Tour 7 because of the heft. I can also serve with better pop and spin with the Volkl BB 5 because I can snap my wrist with the lighter racquet. However, after three sets with the lighter stick, my wrists were very sore the next day. Is this to be expected with any lighter stick that you can snap your wrists with? Thanks for any insights based on your experiences.

nickb
04-09-2007, 12:35 PM
When people try out new rackets they sometimes pick up injuries from altering their swing and technique to suit the new frame which seems to be happening with you. The BB isnt stupidly stiff so id give it time and see if it goes away once you have played with the frame for a while. If it dosnt go away then you could try a softer string like wilson NXT or gut and if that dosnt work you need to find another racket.

Nick

fgs
04-09-2007, 12:38 PM
you are "oversnapping" (weird term i admit) - that means that you are used to a certain motion and force applied to move the heavier stick, and now all of a sudden, with the lighter stick you just get too much of wrist action, which extends your wrist more than with your heavier racquet. you will get used to it once you have adjusted the motion to the lighter racquet. i switched last fall from a heavier n6.1 95 (modded) to the lighter nblade 106 (also modded for the same slightly headheavy balance i like) and have gone through the same thing - i had weird spin and no pace for the first few hitting sessions since i moved that lighter stick faster and my timing was "off" for some time. once i have settled in, took me some 10 hours to readjust all my strokes, the wrist and basically all my arm/shoulder muscles have come to "normal" once again. if you want to stay with that new racquet, just give yourself some more time with it.

nethugger
04-09-2007, 02:04 PM
Thanks guys. Some good feedback. Confused about one statement, however. How can you snap wrist too much? I never heard of anyone "holding back" when serving spin or overhead smashing. Are you saying that I should purposely not snap as hard?

fgs
04-09-2007, 02:12 PM
your wrist is tuned to snap with a heavier racquet = heavier load. now, if you lower the load and basically will use the same motion, you will accelerate more - therefore you were able to hit more spin into those serves. because you accelerate more you will "overextend" your wrist until you will have tuned your muscles and implicitely movement to the lower load and don't go into overextension. therefore you got a sore wrist. give yourself a little time with the lighter racquet and this issue will not be bothering you anymore. i hope i was able to explain comprehensively.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 02:14 PM
I can also serve with better pop and spin with the Volkl BB 5 because I can snap my wrist with the lighter racquet. However, after three sets with the lighter stick, my wrists were very sore the next day. Is this to be expected with any lighter stick that you can snap your wrists with?

Your wrist is sore because you are snapping your wrist. Purposely snapping your wrist leads to injury, tendonitis, pain, etc.

Have a certified pro evaluate your strokes to determine if your mechanics are faulty.

bad_call
04-09-2007, 05:02 PM
your wrist is tuned to snap with a heavier racquet = heavier load. now, if you lower the load and basically will use the same motion, you will accelerate more - therefore you were able to hit more spin into those serves. because you accelerate more you will "overextend" your wrist until you will have tuned your muscles and implicitely movement to the lower load and don't go into overextension. therefore you got a sore wrist. give yourself a little time with the lighter racquet and this issue will not be bothering you anymore. i hope i was able to explain comprehensively.

pretty good description here. however if after due time the problem continues then u may need a heavier / different racquet.

drhopz
04-09-2007, 05:05 PM
I dont think you're using your arm enough, basically you're just putting more pressure on ur wrist and snapping it to extreme to produce top spin. Dont snap your wrist. You're not playing badminton.

fgs
04-09-2007, 05:10 PM
drhopz,
no, no, the snapping is o.k. the trouble comes from the fact that the acceleration and deceleration motion is tuned to the heavier weight. now, since he uses a lighter racquet, he will accelerate more, but starts the deceleration pattern too late and thus overextends. he'll get used to this faster acceleration and also the faster deceleration with a little bit of practice. of course, as bad call suggested, if the soreness doesn't go away, it is advisable to look for a heavier racquet, or to increase the weight by means of leading up a little bit.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 05:20 PM
no, no, the snapping is o.k.

Purposely snapping the wrist is not OK. In fact, not one pro on the tour purposely snaps their wrist. This is incorrect technique, and bad advice.

LikeI said in my previous post, this poster should have a certfied pro evaluate his strokes to determine if he is using bad mechanics.

drhopz
04-09-2007, 05:23 PM
Maybe the guy just has a bad wrist. I snap my wrist in a circular motion for topspin, but not the way ppl play badminton.

fgs
04-09-2007, 05:29 PM
drakulie,
this is from the usta site and i will not comment at all:
Technique: Key Factors in the Development of Racket Speed in the Tennis Serve

Bruce Elliott, Ph.D
As every rally in tennis starts with a serve, it is logical to assume that this stroke could be described as the “ultimate weapon” of the game. The powerful serves of players such as Ivanisevic, Sampras and Becker have had such an effect on the game that many people have suggested that the rules be changed to limit play to a single serve. Notwithstanding such reactions, it is apparent that in general all players would modify their service technique if a higher speed serve could be achieved.
Sport scientists and coaches agree that the speed of the racket at impact and therefore the speed of the ball, the height of impact, the angle of the racket and the amount of forward rotation of the ball, are the major factors which determine a successful serve. The speed of the racket at impact is therefore a critical feature of a high speed serve and as such “leg drive”, trunk rotation and the rotations of the upper arm, forearm and hand must all be analyzed with respect to their role in the service action. Questions such as:
· How important is wrist flexion in the service action? or
· Does forearm pronation assist in racket speed? or
· How does “leg drive” affect racket movement?
need to be answered, so that coaches can identify those movements which are critical to performance. Research I conducted with Drs. Marshall and Noffal at the University of Western Australia has provided the following insight into how racket speed is generated in the service action.
The Serve
A sequencing of movements is needed if a high racket speed is to be achieved. This ensures that undue stress is not placed on specific areas of the body (eg., the shoulder). The following movements are therefore required to produce an optimal racket speed.
MOVEMENT ROLE
Leg Drive This drives the racket shoulder up, thus assisting in the movement of the racket down the back thus placing muscles on stretch (elastic energy).
Trunk Rotation(Transference of weight) This drives the racket shoulder forward, forcing the racket away from the back and placing muscles on stretch.

These movements increase the distance the racket has to build speed for impact, while also using elastic energy to assist in the up-and-out drive of the racket. These movements produce approximately 10% of the racket speed at impact.

MOVEMENT ROLE
Upper Arm Movement“Up-and-Forward" These movements build elbow speed and position the racket for impact (Figure 2 to 3). This movement is responsible for approximately 10% of the racket speed at impact.
Forearm Extension and Pronation These movements DO NOT play an important role in the development of racket speed but are responsible for positioning of the racket (height and racket angle) for impact. (Figure 3 to 4).
Upper Arm Inward Rotation This is the key movement in the generation of racket speed at impact and is responsible for about 50% of racket speed (Figures 3 to 6). The outward rotation seen in Figure 2 also places muscles on stretch, thus allowing elastic energy to be used to assist in this action.
Hand Flexion(Wrist Snap) This is another important movement in the generation of racket speed at impact and is responsible for about 30% of racket speed (Figure 5 to 6). This is the final segment to move in the generation of racket speed.

Coaching Implications:
All movements previously discussed are important if a high speed serve is to be produced. Specific emphasis in both physical and technique training must be paid to key elements in the serve. For instance training MUST address the external (outward) followed by internal rotation of the upper arm to protect the shoulder and elbow regions from injury. Coaches must decide when to emphasize these movements when teaching beginners if a successful serve is to be achieved.

Movement Percent of Racket Speed
Leg Drive & Trunk Rotation 10%
Upper Arm Movement 10%
Forearm Extension & Pronation None
Upper Arm Inward Rotation 50%
Hand Flexion 30%

drakulie
04-09-2007, 06:06 PM
fgs, I will be honest with you and tell you I did not read the article you provided. The reason being is that of the 100's of slow motion videos I have seen, I have never seen one pro who snaps their wrist. Not one.

It just doesn't happen. If you have video proof of any pro snapping their wrist on any ground stroke or serve please provide the link. I will be very surpsised. IN the 3 + years I have been on these boards not one person who thinks like you has been able to do so.

fgs
04-09-2007, 06:14 PM
drakulie,
it seems to me that you are not reading very carefully because i definitely think that you do not have any comprehension problems. the op definitely stated that: "I can also serve with better pop and spin with the Volkl BB 5 because I can snap my wrist with the lighter racquet." so, all this wrist snapping thing was and is about the service. in my post to 'drhopz' i made it also clear that we are talking about the service motion. now, you all of a sudden talk about wrist action on groundstrokes. if you want to talk about that, you are free to create an new thread, but the op was talking about his service and i think in this thread we should stay on topic.
you should read it though, because it is informative - 30% of the power in a serve comes, according to scientific studies, from the wrist snapping. therefore i do not think that i gave bad advice to the op, but quite on the contrary - the point is i didn't need to give him any advice on this because he already knew from the very beginning what he was talking about, and i took that indicative about not neccessarily his current level of play, since he's been away for quite some time, but of hus level of knowledge of the game.
please do a little bit more carefull reading, for else you are going to say that i like arguments.:D

as for video proof: http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=110778
that is a very good digital library the usta puts forward to coaches. you will see there quite a lot of wrist action also on the groundstrokes, mainly for spin production. but science is wrong and in florida is plenty sunshine. nastase, borg and mcenroe, to name just three players i have "grown up" with, were doing a lot of wrist shots, admittedly for different purposes.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 06:19 PM
30% of the power in a serve comes, according to scientific studies, from the wrist snapping.

Scientific study, as well as high-speed video footage has shown there is no wrist snap in the serve, and this thought process is a myth. Additionally, many pros (just like in the case of the OP) THINK they are snapping their wrist>>> when in FACT >>> they are not.

If in fact, the OP IS snapping his wrist then he is doing something that is technically not sound, and may very well be the cause of his pain.

In addition, I brought up the "groundstrokes" because the poster before you mentioned it, and you replied to him. I then replied to your reply. Don't be a historical revisionsist.

fgs
04-09-2007, 06:32 PM
ok drakulie, so the itf in it's books about biomechanics, etc. and the usta are all teaching and preaching absolute bulls - you are the only one to know how tennis is to be played.
i showed you studies published by the usta, provided a link to video footage and if you want i can go to the extent of scanning the relevant pages from the itf-books, where very detailed stroke mechanics are described and depicted. these books are intended to the use of coaches who should teach these things to their pupils regardless of age.
please in turn supply me with links that sustain there is no wrist snapping on serves or groundstrokes.

drhopz
04-09-2007, 07:02 PM
Pardon the interuption, i'm no pro, but i do snap my wrist just a little when i flat serve, or topspin serve. I havent had a problem yet, but i am concerned with snapping the wrist to a extreme degree on ground strokes-You will destroy your wrist, but that's going off topic. Basically, you have to snap your wrist if you want to keep the ball in the court imo.

nethugger
04-09-2007, 07:05 PM
Thank you all for your responses. I have to say that I have had two very good teachers and have talked with many others about wrist snap. The teachers teach that it is the MAIN generator of pace (along with leg thrust and trunk rotation). I'm not going to say that one of you is wrong, but the assertion that wrist snap is not part of a good serve is new to me. Thanks again for taking time to respond.

fgs
04-09-2007, 07:12 PM
nethugger,
your two teachers are very good and they obviously know a lot about this game called tennis. just follow their instructions because they are sound technique. give yourself a little time to adjust to the lighter racquet and your wrist soreness will most probably go away. i'm playing quite a lot and have gone through the same trouble last fall when i switched to a almost 30g lighter racquet. i was done with the adjustment pretty quick. have fun at the game and enjoy your new racquet.

Richie Rich
04-09-2007, 07:29 PM
are wrist pronation and wrist snapping the same thing? they are to me. depends on your own interpretation and the context you use the terms in.

there are many pro's whose groundstrokes and serves could be considered "wristy" because of the amout of wrist pronation on their shots.

fgs
04-09-2007, 07:42 PM
richie rich,
wrist pronation is a more scientifically term for the "popular" wrist snapping - not only to you.
i have supplied "scientific proof" for the serve - the result of a study made for the australian tennis federation, published on both the usta and the itf - see one of my earlier posts.
mr.drakulie sustains that scientific research has proven that this would be all in the heads of the players but they wouldn't really do it - so i would like to see a link to such a study, because than all i know about tennis and all i've learned about tennis and all the people that taught me about tennis are IDIOTS.

bad_call
04-09-2007, 07:43 PM
are wrist pronation and wrist snapping the same thing? they are to me. depends on your own interpretation and the context you use the terms in.

there are many pro's whose groundstrokes and serves could be considered "wristy" because of the amout of wrist pronation on their shots.

pronation and snapping are 2 different things. i've tried both when tinkering with the serve.

fqs - wow 30% for wrist...i can believe that when i get a "good" snap...it really kicks...or so my opponents tell me. :p

fgs
04-09-2007, 07:46 PM
bad call,
regarding those 30% i just quoted the results of a study - see one of my earlier posts which contains the complete text.
what would the difference between pronation and snap be in your understanding?

NoBadMojo
04-09-2007, 07:47 PM
After playing with a Volkl Tour 7 (11.4 oz with overgrip) for about 5 years and finally realizing that it is too heavy for my imposing 140 lb. aging body, I demoed a 10.4 oz racquet and discovered that I could actually smash an overhead, something I could not do with any power with the Tour 7 because of the heft. I can also serve with better pop and spin with the Volkl BB 5 because I can snap my wrist with the lighter racquet. However, after three sets with the lighter stick, my wrists were very sore the next day. Is this to be expected with any lighter stick that you can snap your wrists with? Thanks for any insights based on your experiences.

you mention that your wrists (plural) are sore, so i assume you have a two handed backhand. so it could be that your serve isnt causing the problem, and it could be your groundstrokes. it will be helpful if we knew what strings and tension you are using as too tight a tension combined with a stiff frame can play havoc with your wrist as can using poly strings..you could be getting poly wrist. also could be the stiffness of the frame more than the lighter weight causing the problem..also would not recommend you use a leather grip. could be lots of stuff

Purposely snapping the wrist is not OK. In fact, not one pro on the tour purposely snaps their wrist. This is incorrect technique, and bad advice.

.

I'd be hard pressed to think of a pro who DOESNT snap their wrist at some point during their strokes other than on the volley..I would say Jimmy Connors didnt, but his forehand was so unorthodox I would never teach anyone to hit a forehand like that

are wrist pronation and wrist snapping the same thing? they are to me. depends on your own interpretation and the context you use the terms in.

there are many pro's whose groundstrokes and serves could be considered "wristy" because of the amout of wrist pronation on their shots.

i like to think that pronation is a type of wrist snap altho it is different...the wrist pronates on the serve but snaps on groundstrokes. it's something that is very easy to demonstrate but not so easy to type.

fgs
04-09-2007, 07:55 PM
nobadmojo,
looks like this time you are in for "support" of that ridiculous anomaly.:D
i'm not a native english speaker so i look for assistance to get it right and not to pinpoint anyone - that thing with the wrist snap on the serve you call pronation has been called wrist snap by the guys (ph.d's) who made that study i posted earlier. so, in my understanding, also from the itf books i bought in english, pronation is the same with snapping. but it can be that i get things mixed up (i'm better at german and romanian i admit, but try hard to keep my english up too).

drakulie
04-09-2007, 07:55 PM
ok drakulie, so the itf in it's books about biomechanics, etc. and the usta are all teaching and preaching absolute bulls - you are the only one to know how tennis is to be played.


Here you go:
Pete Sampras (greatest server of all time) No wrist snap:

http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm

Sampras/Rusedski (no wrist snap)

http://www.advancedtennis.com/atrp/sampras.htm

J. Johansson (bottom of page). He does not snap his wrist. His arm pronates through contact. No wrist snap.

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/index.php

Djokovic (no wrist snap). He pronates his arm

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=dj_side_serve.swf&size=vertical

David Nalbandian (no wrist snap). Again, he pronates his arm.

http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/begin.php


By the way, were is an article from the USTA discussing the fact that even Andre Agassi thought he snapped his wrist when hitting forehands.

author, Bill Mountford, but he is doing the Q&A role for USTA.com.

http://www.usta.com/news/fullstory.sps?inewsid=377488

Q. In regards to the question about PTR or USPTA instructors not teaching the "modern way" (10/25), it raised a question. Does the "modern way" require a higher level of skill in order for it to be performed properly? I remember a study done by Vic Braden on Agassi's forehand. Andre swore he used his wrist, but the study showed in fact he did not. It seems to me that the techniques required in the modern way could be easily misunderstood or applied resulting in poor execution, even with an instructor’s help (i.e., watching a player like Agassi and seeing him use his "wrist"). ......
...Many players associate a “firm wrist” with squeezing the racquet handle too firmly, and this is not ideal, so I am careful about ever offering that suggestion. The study of Andre Agassi’s own perception of his forehand is interesting. He certainly cocks his wrist back before contact (putting his forearm muscles “on stretch”). After he finishes the follow-through, Agassi’s wrist is inarguably in a different position. His logic is easy to follow: that the wrist “snaps” through the hitting zone. Vic Braden was able to break down that Agassi’s wrist was, in fact, still (if not locked) throughout the milliseconds of contact during the forehand. However, if you were trying to teach/coach the Agassi forehand and were to insist that a student keep his wrist firm throughout the swing, then it would not likely look at all like… the Agassi forehand.
– Bill

GROUND STROKES
Guga ( no wrist snap):

http://inside.sfuhs.org/webdesign/atrp/HighSpeedVideo/highspeedvideo.htm

Agassi : go to bottom of page ( no wrist snap):

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/s...enterSide1.mov

Serena Williams ( now wrist snap):

http://www.procomparetennis.net/demo...fhreturn.mov

bad_call
04-09-2007, 07:57 PM
bad call,
regarding those 30% i just quoted the results of a study - see one of my earlier posts which contains the complete text.
what would the difference between pronation and snap be in your understanding?

my understanding is this. wrist snapping is well wrist snapping...somewhat obvious. wrist pronation is rolling the wrist inward which results in a serve that kicks out when serving the ad court (i'm right handed).

drakulie
04-09-2007, 07:59 PM
I'd be hard pressed to think of a pro who DOESNT snap their wrist at some point during their strokes other than on the volley..I would say Jimmy Connors didnt, but his forehand was so unorthodox I would never teach anyone to hit a forehand like that

I guess you are hard pressed. Here are 8 pros that don't.


Pete Sampras (greatest server of all time) No wrist snap:
http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm

Sampras/Rusedski (no wrist snap)
http://www.advancedtennis.com/atrp/sampras.htm

J. Johansson (bottom of page). He does not snap his wrist. His arm pronates through contact. No wrist snap.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/index.php

Djokovic (no wrist snap). He pronates his arm
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=dj_side_serve.swf&size=vertical

David Nalbandian (no wrist snap). Again, he pronates his arm.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/begin.php

GROUND STROKES

Guga ( no wrist snap):
http://inside.sfuhs.org/webdesign/atrp/HighSpeedVideo/highspeedvideo.htm

Agassi : go to bottom of page ( no wrist snap):
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/site_tour.html?AAFHCenterSide1.mov

Serena Williams ( now wrist snap):
http://www.procomparetennis.net/demo_video_clip.asp?demoplayer=Serena&demofile=demoserenafhreturn.jpg&democlip=demoserenafhreturn.mov

[/QUOTE]

bad_call
04-09-2007, 08:07 PM
i've noticed that some pros don't wrist snap when serving. guess it depends on what they are comfortable doing. it's not the easiest thing to hit consistently but when it happens, the opponents know it.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 08:12 PM
are wrist pronation and wrist snapping the same thing? they are to me. depends on your own interpretation and the context you use the terms in.

there are many pro's whose groundstrokes and serves could be considered "wristy" because of the amout of wrist pronation on their shots.

No, they are two very different things, although I agree that some people incorrectly use the terms interchangeably, and this is why this whole issue becomes confusing.

The snap of the wrist is exaclty that> A snap.

Pronation is the rolling of the forearm, while the wrist remains relatively in line with the forearm>>without snapping.

Here is a photo of Venus Williams. Notice how her arm has rolled to the right and her wrist has not snapped down. Her wrist is still in line with her forearm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_1231.jpg

Maria Sharapova (same thing) here arm has pronated to the right;

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_1244.jpg

NoBadMojo
04-09-2007, 08:18 PM
I guess you are hard pressed. Here are 8 pros that don't.


Pete Sampras (greatest server of all time) No wrist snap:
http://www.dono.com.cn/tujie/sampras02.htm

Sampras/Rusedski (no wrist snap)
http://www.advancedtennis.com/atrp/sampras.htm

J. Johansson (bottom of page). He does not snap his wrist. His arm pronates through contact. No wrist snap.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/index.php

Djokovic (no wrist snap). He pronates his arm
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/video_sample/index.php?movie=dj_side_serve.swf&size=vertical

David Nalbandian (no wrist snap). Again, he pronates his arm.
http://www.hi-techtennis.com/serve/begin.php

GROUND STROKES

Guga ( no wrist snap):
http://inside.sfuhs.org/webdesign/atrp/HighSpeedVideo/highspeedvideo.htm

Agassi : go to bottom of page ( no wrist snap):
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/s...enterSide1.mov

Serena Williams ( now wrist snap):
http://www.procomparetennis.net/demo...fhreturn.mo v[/quote]

you're not even understanding what is being discussed here and taking everything out of context or otherwise twisting it all about..

fgs
04-09-2007, 08:22 PM
drakulie,
besides the last two links that did not open, i'm really sorry for you - there is wrist snap on each and every link you provided. the funniest is the one with nalbandians serve, where on top of the page fed is really wristing a killer forehand. you seem to have some more trouble though, and that might be because you haven't read the text that i supplied - forearm pronation and extension supplies the possibility of wrist snapping, otherwise you'd really hurt yourself.
the text with vic braden is funny too - you really made my day - so agassi starts with his wrist cocked, then he finishes with the wrist extended, and throughout the hitting zone he locks his wrist. wow, ball impact is 4 miliseconds and that is a hitting zone. so biomechanically this is really the biggest bulls i have ever heard - someone starts a motion from an cocked wrist position, than, at a certain point in the hitting motion he stops one movement, the wrist movement, so he takes out energy, than he starts accelerating his wrist again but the other parts moving (underarm, etc.) are slowing down, in order to finish with the extended wrist the followthrough. very insightfull. how to waste energy setting up and stopping down two times in a single stroke. he was locking his wrist in the contact zone - lmao.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 08:38 PM
there is wrist snap on each and every link you provided.

No there isn't. All of the high speed videos are provided thru websites that take great care in filming those pros using high speed video. Not one shows a pro using their wrist in a snapping motion.

In addition, I added photos of two professionals serving where there is no wrist snap. There is the rolling of the arm.

But here is even more proof for you. The pronation vs. snap is discussed in great detail. It begin at about the middle of the page.

http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12-5contact.html#pronation

fgs
04-09-2007, 08:40 PM
nobadmojo,
it really seems he does not understand what we are talking about - the two wonderfull pics supplied show very clearly a different wrist position relative to the underarm than the wrist had when the hand was making the loop behind the shoulders. it is clear that this realtive position change of the wrist to the underarm cannot be the result of the arm pronation.

the following is an excerpt from itf advanced coaches manual - chapter 5: advanced stroke techniques - IV. the serve (page 78)
"8. wrist flexion
in the backswing (behind the back) and early foreward swing the wrist is hyperextended (the hand bends back at the wrist). as the racket head accelerates towards the impact point, the hand flexes at the wrist until, at impact, it is relatively straight compared to the forearm, and then the racket head continues at high speed so that the wrist flexes.
the wrist action from a hyperextended position, through to a straight (at impact) and then flexed position (after impact), is in the final stage of the chain of links which produces a powerful serve."
seems the world governing body of this game want to make us all cripples.:D

drakulie
04-09-2007, 08:50 PM
Here is a quote by John Yandell taken from another thread where this issue was discussed in detail. By the way, John is the one who takes all of these videos and studies them:

Here is his website, if you would like to read about him, and find out what his website is about:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/staff/bio/staff_bio.html

I think what a top player says is always interesting but usually indicates a "feel" that he or she has and not a closely studied technical viewpoint.

It's incorrect to say that the wrist doesn't move on the serve or on the forehand. The questions are: when does it move and why and how.

Basically hundreds or actually thousands of video examples show that the role is overwhelmingly passive and a function of the other forces driving the strokes.

If a good player wants to believe that he "snaps" and has that "feel" then it's hard to say he shouldn't--if the video shows that his arm and racket are going through the same positions as other elite performers.

The problem is usually with lower level players who try to make these movements "happen" through conscious muscle contractions. This is the problem with a term like "snap the wrist." If you believe the wrist "snaps" then you may also believe you have to make it snap.

Rod Cross calculated that the force you can generate in this fashion is far less than the force of the larger rotational movements that really drive the stroke and cause wrist movement to occur when and if it does.

You can find plenty of examples of the wrist staying 90 degrees plus to the forearm after contact on the forehand, and even moving further into the laid back position after contact. You wouldn't see that if the players were "snapping" in the way most people think of it.

On the serve, you see the arm and racket rotating from the shoulder counterclockwise as a unit moving thru and after the hit. If the wrist breaks past neutral, which it often doesn't, this occurs due to relaxation, gravity and/or the relative speeds of the racket head and hands well after contact.

fgs
04-09-2007, 09:00 PM
drakulie,
you seem to not have read to the end the last link you provided. here you go:
NOW FOR SEMANTICS

The wrist bends forward (flexion), bends backward (extension), and to the sides (deviation). Deviation adds degrees and dimension to wrist movement. You loosen the wrist to move it and if you move it quickly or sharply it's a snap. The three wrist movements explained above are in fact a wrist "snap" since they are done with emphasis and energy, and it climaxes the Superior Serve.

for one moment i thought that braden was a "cheater" - but reading to the end it seems he gets most things right.

fgs
04-09-2007, 09:07 PM
drakulie,
john yandell is in absolute contradiction with vic braden. so shall i understand that you rely on contradicting sources. that's a fine strategy, mr.drakulie - however it will turn out, you can say that you supported the viewpoint.
mr. yandell says that wrist action is at best passive, while braden says that the wrist 'nukes'. now, please go and make your homework, read the texts you have enlightened us with (thank you), and then tell us for who you will vote: it's yandell vs. braden

drakulie
04-09-2007, 09:09 PM
The wrist bends forward (flexion), bends backward (extension), and to the sides (deviation). Deviation adds degrees and dimension to wrist movement. You loosen the wrist to move it and if you move it quickly or sharply it's a snap. The three wrist movements explained above are in fact a wrist "snap" since they are done with emphasis and energy, and it climaxes the Superior Serve.

I did read it to the end. Obviously, you are not comprehending what you are reading. The "flexion" forward is not a snap. Rather, a natural consequence of the swing and gravity. Additionally, it happens well after impact. Immediately before, during, and after impact the wrist is straight in relation to the forearm. What happens after the ball has left the strings is irrelevant.

The racquet head drops (well after impact), and the "natural consequence" is for the wrist to "snap" (for lack of a better word) forward and down because of gravity.

Joshie
04-09-2007, 09:19 PM
U need to use your whole body and arm not just the wrist...

fgs
04-09-2007, 09:21 PM
drakulie,
english is a foreign language for me, but i have the feeling that you have a hard time with it:
vid braden writes: "The three wrist movements explained above are in fact a wrist "snap" since they are done with emphasis and energy, and it climaxes the Superior Serve". so they are done with emphasis and energy!!!!

you say, citing yarnell, that "The racquet head drops (well after impact), and the "natural consequence" is for the wrist to "snap" (for lack of a better word) forward and down because of gravity".
well, you seem to be our dear lord because you can do gravity with emphasis and energy. so, once again for your better understanding - in one link you provided, about braden, the three wrist movements are in fact a snap, and are done conscienciously because they are done with emphasis and energy. the other link provided citing yarnell, the snap occurs as a natural consequence of gravity - so where is the emphasis and energy in this gravitational snap.
i guess you're tired and would like to get some sleep - it should be about 1:15 am in florida.

NoBadMojo
04-09-2007, 09:22 PM
nobadmojo,
it really seems he does not understand what we are talking about

yes, this makes it impossible to have any sort of reasoned discourse with him..not even worth trying.

i try and avoid even talking about the wrist in my lessons unless i see they are doing something contrived with it. if i am getting them doing everything preceeding the wrist snap/pronation properly, the wrist stuff has a way of taking care of itself and is one less thing to complicate/confuse a lesson with.

fgs
04-09-2007, 09:23 PM
joshie,
of course you need to use your whole body - noone said that you can serve only from your wrist. you're starting up with leg drive, hip rotation etc. - the whole kinetic chain which ends with this bloody wrist snap we're talking about.

drakulie
04-09-2007, 09:24 PM
drakulie,
john yandell is in absolute contradiction with vic braden.

By the way, here is a direct quote from the study:

"Vic Braden and the other well intentioned men and women out there who emphasize pronation and say don't snap the wrist do so, I believe, to refute those blockheads.This is a good thing. In this way Vic, et. al., are imploring you to remember the mechanics of the hitting arm, and are correct in pointing out it seems we don't snap so much forward like on a basketball shot"

Like I said, you and obviously NBMJ don't comprehend what you read too well.

fgs
04-09-2007, 09:29 PM
drakulie,
you really don't understand what you yourself are talking about. braden "discovered" that this snap is not a forward snap as in baseball, but it is a threedirectional snap - flexion, extension, deviation. that's the apparently new contribution of braden to this issue. he says that there is no snap like in the baseball pitching motion or basketball, and on that one he's right. if he had an argument with people suggesting a plain forward snap as in baseball, than he is right to prove those people wrong - but nowhere does he suggest that there is not that threedirectional snap he "discovered".

TennisandMusic
04-09-2007, 10:15 PM
Wow...I can't believe this. There is volumes of evidence regarding the fact that the wrist doesn't "snap" on the serve and this argument is going on for pages.

I have to back up Drakulie on this one. There are so many hi speed videos of pro serves, and they never ever EVER snap their wrist. If you snap your wrist on ANY tennis stroke regularly you just plain suck at tennis. :p

The thing is you can quote USTA, or coaches or, books etc etc. But the visual and only REAL evidence shows no top player snaps the wrist on the serve or groundstrokes etc. Why are you all trying to insult Drakulie? The visual evidence is right there and it's there in spades. It's like standing outside, insisting the sky is green, because it's written in a book, but you refuse to just look up...

anirut
04-09-2007, 10:22 PM
Man, man ... this thread is snaping ...

Kaptain Karl
04-09-2007, 10:48 PM
You guys are funny. This is a terminology debate; not a technical disagreement, if you ask me.

drakulie defines "snap" as ... "snap". (That's not any help.) Others admit they are conflating the terminology of the researchers (flexion, extension, deviation, pronation) under the rubric of "snap".

I was a Teaching Pro for 12 years ... back when Braden was first publishing his High-Speed film studies. He defined "snap" as "flop" ... and tried to correct us all by using three syllable words to replace what we were saying in our lessons. Guess what? Beginners frequently don't know what you mean if you use "pronation" in your instruction. (Thanks anyway, Vic.)

drakulie, in your Sampras / Rusedski clip (particularly) it surely looks like their wrists are ... snapping ... from flexion to neutral just before they make contact with the ball. That motion then translates to pronation and deviation after contact.

When teaching, it's a lot easier to call all that "snap" ... for sufficient communication with the Beginner, Intermediate and Lower Advanced players. (Each year of coaching my HS Boys, two or three boys "play know-it-all" with me and insist on the scientific terminology. "Okay, fine." That's just not a hill I'm willing to die on....)

P.S. Be nice to each other.

- KK

fgs
04-10-2007, 06:13 AM
kaptain karl,
thank you very much for "snapping" in on this one. there is wrist movement in each and every stroke and anyone is free to call it as he likes. it's true that for educational purposes it would be difficult to tell 15-16 yr. old itf juniors, not to talk about younger ones, that they have to pronate, than deviate and supinate - they'll look at you and think "our coach has gone completely nuts, we just want to get that kick right on the second serve and he is giving us a scientific lecture".:D

NoBadMojo
04-10-2007, 06:50 AM
the problem with saying verbal cues like 'wrist snap' and 'pronation' is that it sends wrong messages. typically if you were to tell a lesson to NOT snap their wrist, they end up locking it which is really bad. potentially dangerous, and they usually end up arming their serve rather than having the motion end up with the final transfer of energy trhough the wrist pronation/snap. additionally, if you demonstrate wrist pronation on the serve most lessons will turn that into an exaggerated move which is also bad. wrist pronation IS a type of wrist snap <clearly> and people are stuck in the descriptors and nuance here and willing to duke it out over a piece of minutia. Braden also says the serve toss should only be as high as you can reach too, and doesnt get much love for things like that..he's a mixed bag.
but seriously, the only pro i've ever seen who doesnt break his wrist in some form on all the shots save for the volley was Jimmy Connors...he had a semi western forehand but still somehow hit a flattish ball and never did break/snap his wrist even on the fllow through

drakulie
04-10-2007, 06:55 AM
drakulie defines "snap" as ... "snap". (That's not any help.)

Actually, I differentiated between the two in the following post.

No, they are two very different things, although I agree that some people incorrectly use the terms interchangeably, and this is why this whole issue becomes confusing.

The snap of the wrist is exaclty that> A snap.

Pronation is the rolling of the forearm, while the wrist remains relatively in line with the forearm>>without snapping.

Here is a photo of Venus Williams. Notice how her arm has rolled to the right and her wrist has not snapped down. Her wrist is still in line with her forearm.


I was a Teaching Pro for 12 years ... back when Braden was first publishing his High-Speed film studies. He defined "snap" as "flop" ... and tried to correct us all by using three syllable words to replace what we were saying in our lessons. Guess what? Beginners frequently don't know what you mean if you use "pronation" in your instruction. (Thanks anyway, Vic.)

I agree that this whole issue could be confusing, and mentioned that in the post I provided above. However, although beginners for the most part don't know what one means when a coach says to pronate, at the same time they are extremely concrete. As a result, when one says "snap your wrist", they do just that>>> snap their wrist in a downward motion, which is incorrect. As a result, they get what Braden describes as a "floppy wrist".

And I disagree it is easier when teaching to describe it as a "snap". If one is a good coach and genuinely cares about his students, they will take the time to describe, and SHOW by demonstrating to a student what they are trying to teach. There is no more effort put in by a coach saying "snap" as opposed to "pronate". With all the technology at one's disposal in today's world, there is no excuse.

As proof, here is an exmple of a forehand. Using this frame-by-frame, it is extremely simple to teach what a laid back wrist at contact means when teaching a forehand. At the same time it is also very simple to dispel the myth that the "wrist snaps" during a forehand.

Note that before contact (frame 5), the wrist is laid back. After contact (frame 6) the wrist remains laid back. At this point in the motion, the ball has long left the racquet. The wrist has not "snapped" or "broken", or released", or whatever other term one feels comfortable calling it.

In frame 7,8,9 the wrist has finally "released" not becuase it is a conscious effort. Additonally, whatever happens in the follow-thru is insignificant for the purposes of this discussion. The point is, there is no "conscious snapping" of the wrist. Not in the forehand, and not in the serve.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0228.jpg

Peace to all of you. YES! ALL OF YOU!

rocket
04-10-2007, 07:26 AM
Note that before contact (frame 5), the wrist is laid back. After contact (frame 6) the wrist remains laid back. At this point in the motion, the ball has long left the racquet. The wrist has not "snapped" or "broken", or released", or whatever other term one feels comfortable calling it.

In frame 7,8,9 the wrist has finally "released" not becuase it is a conscious effort. Additonally, whatever happens in the follow-thru is insignificant for the purposes of this discussion. The point is, there is no "conscious snapping" of the wrist. Not in the forehand, and not in the serve.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0228.jpg

Peace to all of you. YES! ALL OF YOU!

Drak,

Your wrist snap is there. Frame #2 is the beginning of it, as the wrist breaks. This is the point where the wrist is at its loosest. Extra racquet acceleration starts here. frame #5 is when the wrist is firmest, right through to frame #7 when it starts to relax again. The rest is just a natural follow-through.

You can give it a try the next time you hit. Loose - firm - loose again during racquet acceleration. You will notice an increase in pace. One has to make sure that at contact, the wrist has to be firm, or they'll spray the ball. :D

Jack & Coke
04-10-2007, 07:32 AM
..after three sets with the lighter stick, my wrists were very sore the next day. Is this to be expected with any lighter stick that you can snap your wrists with?



Not sure if it's the racquet or your technique, but here's some interesting reading:




From: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1998/09/09/BUSINESS2593.dtl (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/examiner/archive/1998/09/09/BUSINESS2593.dtl)


"No one has done any real experiments to determine a racket's influence on injury," says Brody. "Until someone comes up with a way to actually measure it, we're pretty much stuck with anecdotal evidence.
"Formulas are one thing," Brody adds. "It's the proof that we should be focusing on."

The racket rankings on McCutchen's site generated another controversy. Using his formulas, McCutchen rated the performance and safety of 69 rackets currently on the market. The newer lightweight ones, made from titanium and other exotic materials, fared the worst.

"They don't bring enough mass to the collision," says McCutchen. "When the racket meets the ball, instead of the racket going through the ball, it bounces off it.

"It's like if you try to hit a hardball with a light softball bat," he adds. "It just doesn't work. You need a heavy bat to hit a home run."

Spokesmen for Wilson Sporting Goods and HeadUSA, leaders in the tennis racquet market, say the lighter rackets create faster swing speeds. Both companies say the popularity of these rackets show that the new technology is sound.

"Consumers are very happily going out and purchasing our products," said Dave Haggerty, president of HeadUSA Summer Sports Division, which makes the top-selling Ti.S7 and Ti.S6 rackets. "No one is returning them for tennis elbow."

Head's titanium rackets, which were introduced this past January, took the company's product line from third to first place in racket sales, according to Tennis Industry magazine.


LOL! I have a Ti.S6 :p

Definately fun to play with. Lot's of POWER on my serves. But groundies lacked stability so I added lead tape to the head.


From:
http://www.racquetresearch.com/sevencri.htm (http://www.racquetresearch.com/sevencri.htm)


Chain store customers, and even those who buy at pro shops, demand lighter racquets -- completely the opposite of the pros!

A candid observer must find it somewhat incredible that even though the racquet makers pay the pros lots of money to display what appears to be the same racquet they are selling to consumers, in reality the racquet is not at all the same in weight or swingweight.

Racquet manufacturers tout light weight as if it were something good, when in fact they should be putting a warning label on their racquets advising buyers that they are increasing their risk of disabling injury if they insist on banging away with a wimp stick.

The heavier, the better.

If 14 ounces sounds big to you, consider that even ladies and juniors used to play with wood racquets that weighed that much, and Don Budge won the Grand Slam with a racquet that weighed a whole pound.





from: http://www.bellaonline.org/articles/art13491.asp (http://www.bellaonline.org/articles/art13491.asp)

Tennis Adjustments
There are several "tennis" things you can do with your tennis elbow.

The leading cause of tennis elbow is incorrect stroke mechanics.

If you're not hitting the ball correctly, it can cause additional stress on your elbow and lead to injury. You should check with a certified instructor to make sure your strokes are correct. In addition, there are many recommended tennis racquets that are easy on your arm, and which you should consider trying if you are recovering from this injury.

Stiff frames and tightly strung racquets with little or no dampening transfer shock and vibration through your arm, possibly resulting in a case of tennis elbow.

Other factors which may influence tennis elbow include using too small of a grip, or a very lightweight racquet.

fgs
04-10-2007, 07:33 AM
rocket,
nice to see that there are also other posters that see what there is to see! if i would try to put in words the firm wrist on impact i would say that the grip is firm and that the wrist makes a controlled movement, as opposed to that floppy wrist which indeed gets you nowhere - but that is not to have a disagreement, just to try to describe this issue a little bit more (maybe my word selection is not the best, but it's the best i could thing of).

drakulie
04-10-2007, 07:36 AM
drakulie,
besides the last two links that did not open, i'm really sorry for you - there is wrist snap on each and every link you provided.

the text with vic braden is funny too - you really made my day - so agassi starts with his wrist cocked, then he finishes with the wrist extended, and throughout the hitting zone he locks his wrist. wow, ball impact is 4 miliseconds and that is a hitting zone. so biomechanically this is really the biggest bulls i have ever heard -

he was locking his wrist in the contact zone - lmao.

Here are the links again. You could clearly see Agassi has his wrist laid back before and after contact. he does not snap his wrist. You could go frame by frame to clearly see this. If you don't, you either blind or just being a troll.

Agassi : go to bottom of page ( no wrist snap):
http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/site_tour/site_tour.html?AAFHCenterSide1.mov

Serena Williams ( now wrist snap):
http://www.procomparetennis.net/demo_video_clip.asp?demoplayer=Serena&demofile=demoserenafhreturn.jpg&democlip=demoserenafhreturn.mov

drakulie
04-10-2007, 07:38 AM
Drak,

Your wrist snap is there. Frame #2 is the beginning of it, as the wrist breaks.

I don't think so. My wrist is laid back in frame #2. It is not snapping forward. It remains laid back until well after contact.

rocket
04-10-2007, 07:41 AM
rocket,
nice to see that there are also other posters that see what there is to see! if i would try to put in words the firm wrist on impact i would say that the grip is firm and that the wrist makes a controlled movement, as opposed to that floppy wrist which indeed gets you nowhere - but that is not to have a disagreement, just to try to describe this issue a little bit more (maybe my word selection is not the best, but it's the best i could thing of).

You're right, since it's the racquet that hits the ball & not the hand, so the grip has to be firm to control the racquet head at contact. :D

drakulie
04-10-2007, 07:49 AM
Drak,

Your wrist snap is there. Frame #2 is the beginning of it, as the wrist breaks.

Here is frame # 2. No wrist snap, it is laid back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0214.jpg

Frame # 3. Wrist is still laid back (no snap)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0216.jpg

Frame # 4 (no wrist snap). Wrist still laid back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0218-1.jpg

drakulie
04-10-2007, 07:51 AM
Frame # 5 (contact). Still no wrist snap. The wrist is still laid back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0220-1.jpg

Frame # 6 ball is gone off the racquet (still no wrist snap).
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0224.jpg

haerdalis
04-10-2007, 07:52 AM
the problem with saying verbal cues like 'wrist snap' and 'pronation' is that it sends wrong messages. typically if you were to tell a lesson to NOT snap their wrist, they end up locking it which is really bad. potentially dangerous, and they usually end up arming their serve rather than having the motion end up with the final transfer of energy trhough the wrist pronation/snap. additionally, if you demonstrate wrist pronation on the serve most lessons will turn that into an exaggerated move which is also bad. wrist pronation IS a type of wrist snap <clearly> and people are stuck in the descriptors and nuance here and willing to duke it out over a piece of minutia. Braden also says the serve toss should only be as high as you can reach too, and doesnt get much love for things like that..he's a mixed bag.
but seriously, the only pro i've ever seen who doesnt break his wrist in some form on all the shots save for the volley was Jimmy Connors...he had a semi western forehand but still somehow hit a flattish ball and never did break/snap his wrist even on the fllow through
This is so true.

fgs
04-10-2007, 07:58 AM
drakulie,
i understand that it's you in those pictures. first, there are some flaws in your technique, and if you hit so it doesn't mean that the pros also hit so, neither former pros nore current pros. the most striking point in your demo is the fact that the racquet head at impact is below wrist level, and that "ain't no good", believe me. the second most striking point is that your striking shoulder has a unnaturally elevated position, impeding on a natural swing. in every book, current or past, you will see that it is recommended to have the shoulders level.
this is (99.999999....9 % probability) my last post in this thread. i have come to my conclusions and i really have better things to do.

drakulie
04-10-2007, 08:07 AM
^^^ whatever. fact of the matter is there is no wrist snap>>> In my stroke, or any pro that I provided high speed video proof of.

Just go back and look at Agassi's and Serena's forehand. (i fixed the link). NO WRIST SNAP. See what you want to see.

rocket
04-10-2007, 08:10 AM
Here is frame # 2. No wrist snap, it is laid back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0214.jpg

Frame # 3. Wrist is still laid back (no snap)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0216.jpg

Frame # 4 (no wrist snap). Wrist still laid back.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v736/drakulie/100_0218-1.jpg


The 'snap' doesn't happen just before contact. It happens before, during, and after contact. You can decide to keep your wrist firm throughout the swing, or you can 'whip' the ball by relaxing the wrist as you break/bend it, and accelerate the racquet head, and firm up your grip as you strike the ball, and relaxing it again at the end of your swing. The latter will add zip to your ball. :D

ShooterMcMarco
04-10-2007, 08:14 AM
I'll pull off a Marius:

Search --> Key word: wrist release, Search in forum: Tips & Instruction. Bungalo and Mahboob have some good posts about it.

TennisandMusic
04-10-2007, 10:20 AM
I'm still failing to see how people can insist that the wrist still snaps through all these strokes. If that were true, tennisplayer.net's hundreds of videos are apparently anomalies in the game of tennis? This topic is covered in depth on that site. The wrist is always laid back through contact. Also if the wrist was supposed to snap on groundstrokes why would someone be marketing this?

http://www.squarehittennis.com/

I have tried this thing and it works. The point is to keep your wrist back at ALL times. Its the rotation of your forearm that causes the movement so many people mistake as a snap. It's so obvious if you just take the time to look and think about it. There really is no arguing it, because the visual evidence exists in spades.

How can anyone watch the pro videos and still insist there is wrist snapping going on?

drakulie
04-10-2007, 10:53 AM
^^ Because they only see what they want to. Even in the "still-photo" seqeunce I provided, rocket states that my wrist is "snapping" in photo # 2 and fgs agrees, when in fact it is absolutely crystal clear my wrist is laid back in photos 2-7 (before, during, and after contact).

rocket
04-10-2007, 11:06 AM
Also if the wrist was supposed to snap on groundstrokes why would someone be marketing this?

http://www.squarehittennis.com/

I have tried this thing and it works. The point is to keep your wrist back at ALL times. Its the rotation of your forearm that causes the movement so many people mistake as a snap. It's so obvious if you just take the time to look and think about it. There really is no arguing it, because the visual evidence exists in spades.

How can anyone watch the pro videos and still insist there is wrist snapping going on?

This device is to help ppl learn the proper angle btn the forearm & the racquet. It's particularly useful when learning to vollley. There's nothing wrong with keeping your wrist the same throughout the swing, you'll make a solid contact by doing that.

Advanced players & pros take one step further & whip the racquet through the ball. To do that, your timing has to be pretty good & your wrist pretty strong to establish a solid contact. Check out these 2 clips. Notice how the wrist stays loose at the beginning of the racquet acceleration and at the end of deceleration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

See how he whips the racquet through the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVRtfs0j9Rs

NoBadMojo
04-10-2007, 11:28 AM
This is what would happen if people actually tried to keep their wrist from breaking/snapping/pronating on the forehand....i know of NOBODY else who would hit a forehand this way ---> http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/ppgallery.html?ccode=JCONNORS&pcode=JCONNORS#
photo's 1 and 15 are classic Connors and VERY unorthodox

McGee
04-10-2007, 11:44 AM
This is what would happen if people actually tried to keep their wrist from breaking/snapping/pronating on the forehand....i know of NOBODY else who would hit a forehand this way ---> http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/ppgallery.html?ccode=JCONNORS&pcode=JCONNORS#
photo's 1 and 15 are classic Connors and VERY unorthodox

Mojo, you posted this a couple of years ago re: why people "should not" try to snap their wrist...does you still agree with this? Thanks

Originally posted by NoBadMojo 3/12/05

"nah tom..the wrist is actually firm during impact and then it does various things afterwards as part of the followthru depending upon the player....wrist snapping your forehand during the hit does nothing but give you an inconsistent forehand, and if you are using your wrist to help you generate topspin (which is what alot of people do), that isnt so good. what wrist snapping causes is for you to have to have perfect timing to hit the ball with the desired outcome (think about it, yo'uve got the smallest muscles (wrist)moving the racquet about and that leads to inconsistencies)....thats one reason why there used to be so many unforced forehand errors in the old days because most players did wrist snap their forehand, because that was the way they got topspin w. a continental grip...the semi western or western forehand changed all that, and the wrist if left alone, does its own thing after the fact if everything before is done properly"

Ten_is
04-10-2007, 11:50 AM
'Wrist Snap' is a bad name for the event known as 'Pronation' on the serve.

Pronation happens on serves but what 'wrist snap' is actually referring to is "THE WHIP EFFECT" that Oscar Wegner talks about. Snap that wrist when you're pulling in. Snap that wrist and create the whip effect of energy that will send that ball flying.

You see it in Nadal's forehands here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

You don't see it in Drakulie's video link of Guga here:
http://inside.sfuhs.org/webdesign/atrp/HighSpeedVideo/highspeedvideo.htm


Wrist snap is bad terminology. But when someone tells you to snap your wrist, you will literally whip your racket having it loose to contact and then loose again.

That doesn't mean that the wrist is not laid back 90 degrees at or before contact and is released only after (which it is). It means that you 'whip' the wrist like Nadal, Federer and Verdasco and you get better results once you're at that level.

There is no debate here when you see pros doing it. There is no comparison when seeing a product endorsed by Brad Gilbert to keep your wrist laid back when in the video of Nadal clearly shows that this product would go against his stroke and wrist.

My opinion, is that these retired pros are loving their lives endorsing products to help people learn the basics of tennis and making alot of Great money doing it and further enjoying their lives. That doesn't mean that this product is bogus.. as I believe it's an amazing product. But only to get you started and teaching you to have a laid back wrist and not a loose wrist.

This device is to help ppl learn the proper angle btn the forearm & the racquet. It's particularly useful when learning to vollley. There's nothing wrong with keeping your wrist the same throughout the swing, you'll make a solid contact by doing that.

Advanced players & pros take one step further & whip the racquet through the ball. To do that, your timing has to be pretty good & your wrist pretty strong to establish a solid contact. Check out these 2 clips. Notice how the wrist stays loose at the beginning of the racquet acceleration and at the end of deceleration:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeXRYb-B3OM

See how he whips the racquet through the ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVRtfs0j9Rs

Very very well said indeed.

drakulie
04-10-2007, 12:02 PM
Mojo, you posted this a couple of years ago re: why people "should not" try to snap their wrist...does you still agree with this? Thanks


This is an interesting post. Thanks for sharing it.

haerdalis
04-10-2007, 12:12 PM
I agree snapping is a bad term. But lets use it anyway. No snapping whatsoever means you have to keep a firm wrist throughout the swing. This is bad. Not actively snapping means a relaxed wrist that snaps when the racquet head has built up more speed than the hand. Actively snapping often leads to loss of power since the wrist is best used in passive mode.
So snap but dont try to snap.

NoBadMojo
04-10-2007, 12:12 PM
Mojo, you posted this a couple of years ago re: why people "should not" try to snap their wrist...does you still agree with this? Thanks

Originally posted by NoBadMojo 3/12/05

"nah tom..the wrist is actually firm during impact and then it does various things afterwards as part of the followthru depending upon the player....wrist snapping your forehand during the hit does nothing but give you an inconsistent forehand, and if you are using your wrist to help you generate topspin (which is what alot of people do), that isnt so good. what wrist snapping causes is for you to have to have perfect timing to hit the ball with the desired outcome (think about it, yo'uve got the smallest muscles (wrist)moving the racquet about and that leads to inconsistencies)....thats one reason why there used to be so many unforced forehand errors in the old days because most players did wrist snap their forehand, because that was the way they got topspin w. a continental grip...the semi western or western forehand changed all that, and the wrist if left alone, does its own thing after the fact if everything before is done properly"

you are misinterpreting what i posted...read again please..i say the wrist is firm AT IMPACT not that it doesnt ever break/snap/pronate.

The pic of connors is what happens when you dont snap your wrist/break your wrist/pronate your wrist during the stroke at any point as people here are insisting happens..you get a connors type forehand, and i dont know of ANYONE who hits it like that. Most people intuitively get much of this wrist stuff right if the stuff earlier is done properly. all i am saying is that at impact the wrist is firm..all this video stuff does, as evidenced by this thread is mostly confuse people and cause problems IMO.

McGee
04-10-2007, 12:21 PM
you are misinterpreting what i posted...read again please..i say the wrist is firm AT IMPACT not that it doesnt ever break/snap/pronate.

The pic of connors is what happens when you dont snap your wrist/break your wrist/pronate your wrist during the stroke at any point as people here are insisting happens..you get a connors type forehand, and i dont know of ANYONE who hits it like that. Most people intuitively get much of this wrist stuff right if the stuff earlier is done properly. all i am saying is that at impact the wrist is firm..all this video stuff does, as evidenced by this thread is mostly confuse people and cause problems IMO.

Thanks for the explanation Mojo, I wasn't trying to be cause trouble (I just did a search on "wrist snap" and your post came out). I actually tried to emulate Connors during my "younger" days and it really is a unique style trying to hold the wrist firm after the swing...kinda feels like a robot swing. How he managed to play at that level - using THAT racquet is testiment to his talent.

NoBadMojo
04-10-2007, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the explanation Mojo, I wasn't trying to be cause trouble (I just did a search on "wrist snap" and your post came out). I actually tried to emulate Connors during my "younger" days and it really is a unique style trying to hold the wrist firm after the swing...kinda feels like a robot swing. How he managed to play at that level - using THAT racquet is testiment to his talent.

no worries. yes, if you tell people the wrist doesnt snap/break/pronate what happens is what you've experienced. a robotic stiff swing which isnt good at all on a number of levels. ya, he had a semi western grip yet somehow managed to hit it pretty flat and had no wrist break..in fact he kinda went the other way and cupped his wrist on some forehands at times.very unorthodox and unusual. this is why he was always suseptible to the short sliced ball to his forehand...a semi western grip doesnt work well for those shots <i dont know if he changed his grip much >..Lendl used to drive him nuts by chipping short slices to his forehand, and i remember one time that Connors was really frustrated by lendl doing this and during a post match interview after he lost called lendl a pusher! lol....lendl a pusher? that guy had the biggest game of all for a while back then

TENNIS_99
04-10-2007, 03:35 PM
To the OP, you probably did not expect such overwhelming responses?:D

Let me get back to your original question. I was using LM radical leaded up to 12.2 oz for three years. I like the racquets quite a bit, but Head has such bad quality control. I cracked three of those racquets. I cracked my last one in a tourny and I had to use my old I. Radical about 11 oz. and I feel I've never played as better. At first I had to adjust a little bit but once I used to it and hit balls on the sweet spot, I didn't feel any disadavntage at the baseline and was more mobile at the net. I hit the hardest serves and groundies that I surprised myself. I thought I was going to have sore shoulder and wrist the next day. But even more surprised, all was fine.

What I want to say is technique aside, I think if you want to use lighter racuqet, the racquet itself is very important to keep you injury free. I. radicals are known to absort shock and to be shoulder friendly. You should do more research(tons of experts on the board) if you decide to use a lighter one, GOOD LUCK

dr_punk
04-10-2007, 10:17 PM
So snap but dont try to snap.

It seems this whole thread has gone to the hole because people agree with those who write less in their explanations. Either way, snap or don't snap, we'll see who ends up in rehab or an early jump at golf.

ps60
04-11-2007, 08:26 AM
i sensed that if i can hold my wrist firm, all the way. the ball has excellent control. not more powerful, 'cause the racket head speed would be much lower. With moving wrist, the racket head is crazy and balls are much more powerful but definitely less control. But i can't hold my wrist firm most of the time :-(

The most important thing is u don't hurt yr wrist !
that's the border (bottom) line i think.

BTW, Druk's swing is very rigid. No wrist snap and no shoulder turn either :grin:

NoBadMojo
04-11-2007, 09:12 AM
it's really funny that a 3.5 <or less> hitter with an extremely flawed forehand would try and use pictures of himself as a model to base something proper on..it should be more like, dont swing like this rather than swing like this

the reality is, the wrist is the last transfer of energy through the so called 'kinetic chain' and for almost everyone except Connors the wrist goes from open, to square, to closed during the swing....thats a snap..a break...maybe technically pronation..technical terms tend to only make the teaching pro sound good but confuse the lesson. the key is in the being square and firm with the wrist in the contact zone....that is a product of all the good racquet work and good footwork which has occured earlier in the stroke

ps60
04-11-2007, 09:44 AM
although i can't hold back my wrist except in volley, i admire Fed's wrist, so laid back

http://www.wilson-tennis.jp/gallery/download/wallpaper/fed2005aus2_w_1024x768.jpg

AdvocateTDV
04-11-2007, 10:07 AM
drakulie,
i understand that it's you in those pictures. first, there are some flaws in your technique, and if you hit so it doesn't mean that the pros also hit so, neither former pros nore current pros. the most striking point in your demo is the fact that the racquet head at impact is below wrist level, and that "ain't no good", believe me. the second most striking point is that your striking shoulder has a unnaturally elevated position, impeding on a natural swing. in every book, current or past, you will see that it is recommended to have the shoulders level.
this is (99.999999....9 % probability) my last post in this thread. i have come to my conclusions and i really have better things to do.

You need to check out JCo872's website www.hi-techtennis.com and you will see many videos where the pros make contact with the racquet head below the wrist.

haerdalis
04-11-2007, 10:12 AM
Yes the elevated shoulder is more often seen in a badminton serve...

BounceHitBounceHit
04-11-2007, 10:52 AM
Is this post meant to be discussing whether or not one should use the wrist INTENTIONALLY when hitting a forehand or over-head? I am confused.

Maybe the lighter frame isn't absorbing as much of the impact from the ball, and the guy's wrist feels a bit sore as a result?

Maybe he's just (ever so slightly) modified his swing b/c of the lighter racquet and has 'over-worked' certain muscles/tendons/ligaments around the wrist?

Best,

CC

fgs
04-11-2007, 11:29 AM
advocatetdv,
on shoulderhigh balls?

drakulie
04-11-2007, 05:04 PM
the reality is, the wrist is the last transfer of energy through the so called 'kinetic chain' and for almost everyone except Connors the wrist goes from open, to square, to closed during the swing....thats a snap..a break...maybe technically pronation..technical terms tend to only make the teaching pro sound good but confuse the lesson.

The reality is you are incorrect. There is no break or snap in the "transfer of energy" to the ball. This natural "release" of the wrist happens well after contact.

This is a site with super slow-motion video shot at 4000 frames per second. Not one person "breaks" or "snaps" their wrist before or during contact. the wrist releases well after contact. So whatever happens after the ball has left the strings is insignificant. This so-called "last transfer of energy" you speak about is bogus as it plays no part in the impact to the ball.


http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

NoBadMojo
04-11-2007, 05:13 PM
The reality is you are incorrect. There is no break or snap in the "transfer of energy" to the ball. This natural "release" of the wrist happens well after contact.

This is a site with super slow-motion video shot at 4000 frames per second. Not one person "breaks" or "snaps" their wrist before or during contact. the wrist releases well after contact. So whatever happens after the ball has left the strings is insignificant. This so-called "last transfer of energy" you speak about is bogus as it plays no part in the impact to the ball.


http://www.look-learn.de/e_index.htm

you are incapable of comprehending what i post..you should give it up

drakulie
04-11-2007, 05:15 PM
advocatetdv,
on shoulderhigh balls?

That "contact" shot of me is not shoulder high. It is around my waist. The reason you are seeing it this way is because the camera angle being low to the ground filming upwards---so it looks like it is around my shoulders. Additionally, I took that video in a racquet ball court, so the space was very limited. And yes, many pros have the head of the racquet below their wrist on JCO's website.

drakulie
04-11-2007, 05:22 PM
you are incapable of comprehending what i post..you should give it up

No one is capable of comprehending what you post because you are a walking contradiction. Here you state not to snap your wrist:

Originally posted by NoBadMojo 3/12/05

"nah tom..the wrist is actually firm during impact and then it does various things afterwards as part of the followthru depending upon the player....wrist snapping your forehand during the hit does nothing but give you an inconsistent forehand, and if you are using your wrist to help you generate topspin (which is what alot of people do), that isnt so good. what wrist snapping causes is for you to have to have perfect timing to hit the ball with the desired outcome (think about it, yo'uve got the smallest muscles (wrist)moving the racquet about and that leads to inconsistencies)....and the wrist if left alone, does its own thing after the fact if everything before is done properly"

Here you completely contradict yourself.


I'd be hard pressed to think of a pro who DOESNT snap their wrist at some point during their strokes

i like to think that pronation is a type of wrist snap altho it is different...the wrist pronates on the serve but snaps on groundstrokes.

Jack & Coke
04-11-2007, 05:24 PM
wow, those super slo-mo shots are sweet!

Jack & Coke
04-11-2007, 05:27 PM
3/12/05 ?

drakulie (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/member.php?u=1683) do some homework! ;)