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View Full Version : Grr My tennis coach won't let me play with a Wilson T3000


Viper
04-12-2007, 07:58 PM
Okay, so one of my friends found a T3000 at a garage sale, and being the vintage racket junkie that I am, I had to try it out. So I bring it to school and once tennis practice comes around I start to hit with it. It has great feel am I litterally blasting back backhands where ever I want. So once the coach comes and sees me playing with the racket he gets mad at me and makes me do five laps for playing with a "badminton" racket.

I really like that racket too :(

Kaptain Karl
04-12-2007, 08:16 PM
I think Satan has Tennis in hell ... and the only rackets you can use are T-2000s, T-3000s, PDP FiberStaffs and ... Princes.

IMO, you're experiencing a "honeymoon" event with that frame. Put it on the wall; don't try to play with it.

- KK

Deuce
04-12-2007, 11:09 PM
Play with it as often as you like.

A coach's job is to get results. If you're hitting well with the T3000, and keeping up with the others, the coach has no right to demand that you not play with it.

He's probably just afraid of what people would think of HIM if one of his kids is hitting with a racquet like that.

First, tell him to grow up.
Then tell him to learn about what tennis used to be. If you like old racquets, tell him about some. There is no rule that says that the teacher can't learn from the student.

El Diablo
04-13-2007, 05:37 AM
Do as Deuce says, as long as you're prepared to sit on the bench. My wife once worked for a company that prohibited employees from reading a newspaper during lunch because they were concerned how it would look if an investor passed by in the hallway. The world can be silly and arbitrary at times, and you can resist those in authority if you wish, but be prepared to experience the consequences.

Tennisgrl
04-13-2007, 05:52 AM
I agree with Deuce. Play with what makes you feel comfortable. If he's gonna be that fascist about it, maybe you need a new coach.

Geezer Guy
04-13-2007, 06:33 AM
I'm kinda with your coach on this. If you can play well with a GST-3000 (Garage Sale T-3000), you can play GREAT with a modern racquet. He's not doing you any favors letting you limit yourself.

zapvor
04-13-2007, 07:01 AM
Do as Deuce says, as long as you're prepared to sit on the bench. My wife once worked for a company that prohibited employees from reading a newspaper during lunch because they were concerned how it would look if an investor passed by in the hallway. The world can be silly and arbitrary at times, and you can resist those in authority if you wish, but be prepared to experience the consequences.

thats interesting. weird company!

Kaptain Karl
04-13-2007, 07:23 AM
Viper - I am a HS Tennis Coach. Don't be a fool and challenge your Coach -- like some here are advocating. That's nonsense ... if you want to actually *play* for the team.

... Unless you decide this is a "hill you're ready to die on." (Is it?) Are you willing to make such a big "case" of choosing to play with [a ridiculous] frame?)

- KK

zapvor
04-13-2007, 07:36 AM
^off topic but i just wanted to say lately when i go to practice at the local courts there is either a high school practice taking place or a match against two high schools, and each time the coaches have been very nice with me being on court and even hitting with his players. so i just wanted to say as generalizing that i like high school coaches :)

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 06:43 PM
In my professional opinion, I have taught for over five years, I am uspta, and I have taught from 4 year olds to 50+ year olds: You are making a mistake, and getting some very bad advice from some users here.

If I was teaching a high school student, and he/she wanted to play with a T-'000 series racquet I would let them have their fun for a few minutes, but then they would switch back to using reasonable racquet. It is not viable to use that kind of racquet at that level. I would not let them use a PS 85 for that matter. If they did not like that they would need to get another instructor. This is some brutal truth I am about to tell you.

You are not good enough to use that racquet against equal level peers, I guarantee it. You will get beat by similar level players that think they are, but are in fact not good enough to use a N/K 6.1 90. You will have bad loses against lesser players with Pure Drives. If your coach is stupid and weak enough to let you use that racquet in competition you are going to windup embarrassed. Am I being mean? If the truth hurts, I cannot help it. If the medicine is bitter then so be it.

bismark
04-13-2007, 08:11 PM
In my professional opinion, I have taught for over five years, I am uspta, and I have taught from 4 year olds to 50+ year olds: You are making a mistake, and getting some very bad advice from some users here.

If I was teaching a high school student, and he/she wanted to play with a T-'000 series racquet I would let them have their fun for a few minutes, but then they would switch back to using reasonable racquet. It is not viable to use that kind of racquet at that level. I would not let them use a PS 85 for that matter. If they did not like that they would need to get another instructor. This is some brutal truth I am about to tell you.

You are not good enough to use that racquet against equal level peers, I guarantee it. You will get beat by similar level players that think they are, but are in fact not good enough to use a N/K 6.1 90. You will have bad loses against lesser players with Pure Drives. If your coach is stupid and weak enough to let you use that racquet in competition you are going to windup embarrassed. Am I being mean? If the truth hurts, I cannot help it. If the medicine is bitter then so be it.
Best advice in this thread. Don't lose your place in the team because of a novelty. Your coach has a very GOOD reason for not letting you use that racquet - not those stated by some posters here. Hey, message board people don't bear the consequences, YOU DO!

The Gorilla
04-13-2007, 09:11 PM
In my professional opinion, I have taught for over five years, I am uspta, and I have taught from 4 year olds to 50+ year olds: You are making a mistake, and getting some very bad advice from some users here.

If I was teaching a high school student, and he/she wanted to play with a T-'000 series racquet I would let them have their fun for a few minutes, but then they would switch back to using reasonable racquet. It is not viable to use that kind of racquet at that level. I would not let them use a PS 85 for that matter. If they did not like that they would need to get another instructor. This is some brutal truth I am about to tell you.

You are not good enough to use that racquet against equal level peers, I guarantee it. You will get beat by similar level players that think they are, but are in fact not good enough to use a N/K 6.1 90. You will have bad loses against lesser players with Pure Drives. If your coach is stupid and weak enough to let you use that racquet in competition you are going to windup embarrassed. Am I being mean? If the truth hurts, I cannot help it. If the medicine is bitter then so be it.



why on earth wouldn't you allow someone to use a PS85?

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 09:18 PM
why on earth wouldn't you allow someone to use a PS85?

I was in reference to high school players, a PS 85 would put them at just too much of a disadvantage.

Voltron
04-13-2007, 09:24 PM
I'm a high school player, and I use a Midsize racquet, is there something wrong with that? (technically I didn't bother with the team, instead I'm training)

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 09:29 PM
I'm a high school player, and I use a Midsize racquet, is there something wrong with that? (technically I didn't bother with the team, instead I'm training)

There are big differences between a PS 85 and an RDS 001 MID.

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 09:35 PM
Everyone, do keep in mind that we are talking about a high school team here. If he wants to use a racquet that puts himself at a grave disadvantage that is one thing, but when you are on a team you have to think of others.

The Gorilla
04-13-2007, 09:37 PM
surely if they play better with a certain racquet there's no problem though?

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 09:51 PM
surely if they play better with a certain racquet there's no problem though?

I guarantee he is not playing better with that T-3000 than he does/would with a reasonable racquet. Under limited and to some degree idle circumstances he may indeed be able to blast shots, but hitting "better" and playing better are different matters entirely.

The Gorilla
04-13-2007, 09:57 PM
I guarantee he is not playing better with that T-3000 than he does/would with a reasonable racquet. Under limited and to some degree idle circumstances he may indeed be able to blast shots, but hitting "better" and playing better are different matters entirely.

no, I'm talking about a prostaff, if a student of yours played better with a prostaff 85 would you demand they switch?

Duzza
04-13-2007, 09:57 PM
There are big differences between a PS 85 and an RDS 001 MID.

Hmm my coach encourages my PS 85 use.

Voltron
04-13-2007, 09:58 PM
There are big differences between a PS 85 and an RDS 001 MID.
True, but where do you draw the line in how demanding a racquet should be?
Everyone, do keep in mind that we are talking about a high school team here. If he wants to use a racquet that puts himself at a grave disadvantage that is one thing, but when you are on a team you have to think of others.
I wouldn't quite call my Mids a grave disadvantage.:???:

SFrazeur
04-13-2007, 10:17 PM
no, I'm talking about a prostaff, if a student of yours played better with a prostaff 85 would you demand they switch?

Your not talking about the PS 85 but then you are?

Played better with over what though? Over a beat up Target aluminum racquet, then I would have to say yes. Your question assumes that a PS 85 has to be a choice. That is just not the case. There are more than two choices, with a PS 85 being one.

Are we talking about a high school player, or a guy that likes to hit with the guys. You've got to look at what circumstances the player is under.

Hmm my coach encourages my PS 85 use.
I am not going to state he is wrong, but I'm not wrong either.

True, but where do you draw the line in how demanding a racquet should be? To all racquets in general and not just the ones brought up here, it depends on the person, the competition.
I wouldn't quite call my Mids a grave disadvantage.:???:
I never stated they are. Big differences between a T-3000 and an RDS 001 MID, big.

Deuce
04-14-2007, 01:07 AM
The advice from the self-described coaches seems rather biased in favor of the coach (surprise, surprise).

Next thing they'll be saying is that the coach should be able to tell you what color shorts to wear...

How can any intelligent, objective person NOT be in favor of allowing the kid to play with the T-3000?? If the results are good, he stays with it. If the results are not good, he tries something else.
How is this ridiculous or unfair in any way?

As I stated earlier - the coach's job is to get results. So why not allow the kid to use the racquet and see what results it yields, rather than condemn it before you know if he can make it work or not? Is there a problem to giving it a chance? Just because it's different or unusual does not make it inherently wrong or "ridiculous".

Further, one can even argue that at the high school level, results should not be the 'be all and end all'. Incorporating some FUN into the experience should be encouraged. And maybe even teaching the kids about some of the history of the game. These latter two elements can be achieved by using an old racquet such as this.

Those who are so quick to condemn this racquet choice are doing the kid a disservice.

Kaptain Karl
04-14-2007, 07:52 AM
The advice from the self-described coaches seems rather biased in favor of the coach (surprise, surprise).Sssshhhh! Don't give away our "Vast Coaching Conspiracy."

How can any intelligent, objective person NOT be in favor of allowing the kid to play with the T-3000?? If the results are good, he stays with it. If the results are not good, he tries something else.
How is this ridiculous or unfair in any way?I'm convinced, Deuce. (Not!)

Your attempt at creating a false dichotomy is pretty pathetic. (To *not* allow a kid to play with a demonstrably inferior frame is -- by your thinking -- "unintelligent". Nonsense!)

We don't allow idiotic choices for many reasons. (Anyone actively involved in Jr High and High School Education -- even those on the periphery -- know teenagers' brains haven't fully developed yet.)

The prefrontal cortex, home of the so-called executive functions -- setting priorities, organizing thoughts, suppressing impulses, weighing the consequences of one's actions. In other words, the final part of the brain to grow up is the part capable of deciding whether "x" is a good thing to do or not. Our jobs as parents, teachers and coaches is to help teens (with under-developed Stupid Filters") make better/safer/wiser decisions.

As I stated earlier - the coach's job is to get results. So why not allow the kid to use the racquet and see what results it yields, rather than condemn it before you know if he can make it work or not? Is there a problem to giving it a chance? Just because it's different or unusual does not make it inherently wrong or "ridiculous".#1 ... I don't make very many "hard and fast" rules with my boys when the topic isn't an "essential". I make suggestions. I encourage the boys to think things through....

#2 ... (For me) frame choice isn't an essential. But I'd make it pretty clear -- through joshing or teasing -- that a kid wanting to play with a T-X000 was making a pretty dumb decision. Two years ago, one of my JV boys was playing with a "Red Head" (The Head Pro. 65 sqaure inches. A great frame ... in its day.) I encouraged him to try out some more modern frames. A week later he was playing with a frame which, IMO, wouldn't hamper his development as much as the Red Head.

#3 ... I also ask my Tennis Parents to buy Tennis Shoes or Court Shoes for the boys. Cross Trainers have contributed to too many twisted / sprained ankles. (If mom and dad ignore me ... okay. I tried....)

Further, one can even argue that at the high school level, results should not be the 'be all and end all'. Incorporating some FUN into the experience should be encouraged.My boys have plenty of fun, thanks. Mostly their fun comes from improved results ... as a consequence of following my advice. If a kid wants to fool around with a T-X000, I'd encourage that (on his own time). If his under-developed Stupid Filter has him on my practice courts with it ... that's his choice. (But I'll not take him seriously.)

And maybe even teaching the kids about some of the history of the game. These latter two elements can be achieved by using an old racquet such as this.(I suspect you're just being a contrarian.) Some "history" is fine. But a boy who insists on using a T-X000 for regular play these days? His Coach would determine he isn't really very serious about the game. His Coach would spend more time and energy working with the boys who demonstrated they wanted to improve. The "T-X000" boy would only be hurting himself.

Those who are so quick to condemn this racquet choice are doing the kid a disservice.Those who are encouraging the kid to be foolish are not helping him one bit.

- KK

armand
04-14-2007, 08:03 AM
I think Satan has Tennis in hell ... and the only rackets you can use are T-2000s, T-3000s, PDP FiberStaffs and ... Princes.
- KKhttp://img8.imagepile.net/img8/46097042.gif

Craig Sheppard
04-14-2007, 09:35 AM
Coaches fly off the handle way too many times. This coach is ridiculous. If I saw a player hitting with something stupid like a T-3000, it'd be just as easy to say:

"JIMMY! Get over here! Why are you hitting with that racquet?"

"Yo coach, my buddy just got it at a yard sale and I wanted to see what it was like to hit with an old racquet."

"Oh. That thing can mess up your game. I don't mind with you hitting with it for a little while, but I don't want to see you playing more than 5 or 10 minutes with it, OK?"

"But...I'm hitting really well! My backhands are smokin!"

"Look, I know people hit great with some racquets when they pick them up. I'm telling you, it's not good for your game in the long run. Just have fun with it for a few minutes then get back to work. Are we clear?"

---

Why couldn't it go down like that? Why are all coaches "What the heck are you doing! You're running.... Give me 5 laps now." The first rule of any sport is to have fun doing it. Tennis Team practice isn't for goofing off though, it's for practice. However, nobody's going to win the State Championships in 10 minutes of practice. This way you've let the kid have his bit of fun, he probably learned that old racquets can be crappy, and you've still held your authority about giving him a time limit.

jamumafa
04-14-2007, 09:37 AM
I think he should do what my coach does.

He said I could play with some beasty old Head frame I found 'cos I liked the cosmetics (Racket head was TINY).

He said that I could play with the hunk-a-junk, as long as I kept winning mini-games in practice. I went through about 2 sessions hardly losing any games. I felt great. Then from then on I didnt win a single mini-game. I changed back to my M-fil and all was right again. The honeymoon period of "AAAAAHA I'm right" was great, But I swithced back, because I knew it'd help me.

Voltron
04-14-2007, 09:51 AM
I never stated they are. Big differences between a T-3000 and an RDS 001 MID, big.
I do agree with that. Plus, the RDS is sexier than the T-3000, and isn't that what really counts? ;)

kingdaddy41788
04-14-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm kinda with your coach on this. If you can play well with a GST-3000 (Garage Sale T-3000), you can play GREAT with a modern racquet. He's not doing you any favors letting you limit yourself.

WRONG. Modern racquets are well... pathetic in comparison to old graphite sticks (if you're good). Hit with a Flexpoint Prestige and then tell me it feels as good as a Prestige Classic. If you do, you're lying.

Viper - I am a HS Tennis Coach. Don't be a fool and challenge your Coach -- like some here are advocating. That's nonsense ... if you want to actually *play* for the team.

... Unless you decide this is a "hill you're ready to die on." (Is it?) Are you willing to make such a big "case" of choosing to play with [a ridiculous] frame?)

- KK

Coaches like YOU are a huge part of the problem with high school tennis. My high school coach was such a jerk who couldn't handle a little constructive criticism, that the top two guys at our school wouldn't play for him. Good players don't waste their time playing high school tennis because they won't get noticed there anyway. Players play with racquets that suit them, not racquets that suit you. Grow a pair.

In my professional opinion, I have taught for over five years, I am uspta, and I have taught from 4 year olds to 50+ year olds: You are making a mistake, and getting some very bad advice from some users here.

If I was teaching a high school student, and he/she wanted to play with a T-'000 series racquet I would let them have their fun for a few minutes, but then they would switch back to using reasonable racquet. It is not viable to use that kind of racquet at that level. I would not let them use a PS 85 for that matter. If they did not like that they would need to get another instructor. This is some brutal truth I am about to tell you.

You are not good enough to use that racquet against equal level peers, I guarantee it. You will get beat by similar level players that think they are, but are in fact not good enough to use a N/K 6.1 90. You will have bad loses against lesser players with Pure Drives. If your coach is stupid and weak enough to let you use that racquet in competition you are going to windup embarrassed. Am I being mean? If the truth hurts, I cannot help it. If the medicine is bitter then so be it.

If someone wants to get better, I might recommend to them that they steer away from the T-2000, but if it's what they really like then they should play with it. However, a PS85 (one of the best racquets in history) would come in the top 5 on my list of true, great players' racquets. If you're teaching Grannies (and I bet you are), then steering them away from the PS85 is probably a good idea. But if you're coaching juniors, then maybe you should stop. The two greatest players of all time (Sampras and Federer) both played with the PS85, so clearly it's a high-quality stick.

I was in reference to high school players, a PS 85 would put them at just too much of a disadvantage.

No, it wouldn't. That's a stupid statement. Outright stupid.

Everyone, do keep in mind that we are talking about a high school team here. If he wants to use a racquet that puts himself at a grave disadvantage that is one thing, but when you are on a team you have to think of others.

It doesn't put him at a disadvantage if that's what he plays better with. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad racquet. What's wrong with people today?

I guarantee he is not playing better with that T-3000 than he does/would with a reasonable racquet. Under limited and to some degree idle circumstances he may indeed be able to blast shots, but hitting "better" and playing better are different matters entirely.

He just might be. Just because you can't hit with a classic racquet doesn't mean he can't.


Come on people, am I the only one who sees this as some of the most disgusting coaching advice ever?

The Gorilla
04-14-2007, 10:18 AM
Your not talking about the PS 85 but then you are?


If you look back over my posts you will see that I was only ever talking about the PS85, you are just being disingenous.

Kaptain Karl
04-14-2007, 10:27 AM
Thank you for the "real life" example of a undeveloped prefrontal cortex....


Viper - What have you decided to do?

- KK

ibringtheHEAT
04-14-2007, 11:57 AM
I am a high-school player, and my 'prefrontal cortex' is somewhat developed(I hope ;)).

I don't bother making my coach mad if I can help it. I know that he knows more about tennis than I do, and the only way I can get better is if I listen to him. This goes more-so towards my USTA coach whom is more experienced, but I don't challenge my coaches a lot.

We, high-school players, need to realize that for the most part coaches know more about tennis than we do.(notice, for the most part)

Just my $.02

SFrazeur
04-14-2007, 12:05 PM
WRONG. Modern racquets are well... pathetic in comparison to old graphite sticks (if you're good). Hit with a Flexpoint Prestige and then tell me it feels as good as a Prestige Classic. If you do, you're lying.

That is a logical fallacy, begging the question. Invalid argument.

No, it wouldn't. That's a stupid statement. Outright stupid.

You are entitled to your opinion, the same as I am entitled to my own professional opinion. Please respect that.

It doesn't put him at a disadvantage if that's what he plays better with. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad racquet. What's wrong with people today?

Against equal level players with modern racquets he is at a disadvantage.
When did I state the the racquet it's self was a bad racquet. Never did. Inappropriate, unreasonable yes.

If you look back over my posts you will see that I was only ever talking about the PS85, you are just being disingenous.

No I'm just being confused by your statements.

Tikiman53
04-14-2007, 12:55 PM
I think the OP should just switch to another racquet. It's better than risking the evil eye from the coach--way better. Who says he can't play even better with another racquet? And either way, I'm sure he'll find something that can substitute it well as there are tons of racquets out there. Unless you're using something from Kmart, I don't think a racquet can make or break you. I'm not saying I agree with your coach or disagree with him, but I think you should just go with what he says because he's the one who decides who gets to play Singles 1.

Tour 90
04-14-2007, 03:00 PM
I play in hs with a tour 90, I don't think it limits me at all. When I hit with 100 sq in racquets my style of play sends everything out. But c'mon, a t3000 is not a real 'racquet' by today's standards. Its a novelty item for gods sake

BounceHitBounceHit
04-14-2007, 03:48 PM
Viper - I am a HS Tennis Coach. Don't be a fool and challenge your Coach -- like some here are advocating. That's nonsense ... if you want to actually *play* for the team.

... Unless you decide this is a "hill you're ready to die on." (Is it?) Are you willing to make such a big "case" of choosing to play with [a ridiculous] frame?)

- KK

Amen. Words of Wisdom (caps intentional). :) CC

complwyr
04-14-2007, 04:08 PM
Listen to your coach.

I owned a T3000 when I was in high school and it was a piece of tennis crap even then (1975). Best thing I did then was stick it in the closet and buy a Jack Kramer Autograph. (That is the racquet Pete Sampras learned with as a youngster.) Using that old T3000 will not help your strokes or your game and may even hurt your strokes and timing.

Have your fun with it for a short period of time, then retire it to your closet and play with your much better modern racquet. You will not regret it. In fact, try that T3000 a year from now and you'll realize why it belongs in the closet.

nViATi
04-14-2007, 07:20 PM
The advice from the self-described coaches seems rather biased in favor of the coach (surprise, surprise).

Next thing they'll be saying is that the coach should be able to tell you what color shorts to wear...

How can any intelligent, objective person NOT be in favor of allowing the kid to play with the T-3000?? If the results are good, he stays with it. If the results are not good, he tries something else.
How is this ridiculous or unfair in any way?

As I stated earlier - the coach's job is to get results. So why not allow the kid to use the racquet and see what results it yields, rather than condemn it before you know if he can make it work or not? Is there a problem to giving it a chance? Just because it's different or unusual does not make it inherently wrong or "ridiculous".

Further, one can even argue that at the high school level, results should not be the 'be all and end all'. Incorporating some FUN into the experience should be encouraged. And maybe even teaching the kids about some of the history of the game. These latter two elements can be achieved by using an old racquet such as this.

Those who are so quick to condemn this racquet choice are doing the kid a disservice.
Tennis is about winning.

gsquicksilver
04-14-2007, 07:47 PM
i hate coaches who try to control the lives and decisions of their players.:mad:

ClimbK2
04-14-2007, 08:55 PM
Just play with the T3000 outside of practice.

Do you follow the drills your coach asks you to do in practice?

[K]aotic
04-14-2007, 09:03 PM
is it ok for me to use a k90 in high school? i'm an 8th grader and going to high school next year and i was thinking if it would be bad for me to use the k90. i have a babolat pure drive but i don't like the feel of it and id ont' even use it. so the k90 is the only racquet i have. i have no desire to go out and buy another racquet. besides the k90 feels great.


btw there is a difference between playing good with a racquet and bringing out the racquet's potential.

Deuce
04-14-2007, 09:04 PM
I think he should do what my coach does.

He said I could play with some beasty old Head frame I found 'cos I liked the cosmetics (Racket head was TINY).

He said that I could play with the hunk-a-junk, as long as I kept winning mini-games in practice. I went through about 2 sessions hardly losing any games. I felt great. Then from then on I didnt win a single mini-game. I changed back to my M-fil and all was right again. The honeymoon period of "AAAAAHA I'm right" was great, But I swithced back, because I knew it'd help me.
This seems to be a perfectly logical and fair approach. Far more logical than totally condemning something without even allowing it to be tried.

KK claims to be an 'educator' - and this is how he educates! - by totally condemning something, no questions asked.
Is there any wonder why the education system has so many holes?

Of course, the above-mentioned scenario by 'jamumafa' is the scenario that provides the TRUE education - to the kid if he can't win with the old racquet, and to the coach if the kid CAN win with the racquet. Either way, the lesson learned would be ten times more memorable and valuable than the "just because I say so" approach.
Proof is a wonderful educator.
So why in the world would ANY coach not take the above-mentioned approach? 'Coaches' like the one in the opening post and KK refuse to take this sensible course because they're afraid of looking bad if the kid actually wins with the old frame.
By condemning it and not allowing it to be tried, they can't look foolish. It's all about saving their 'reputation'.

pow
04-14-2007, 09:21 PM
That's just stubborn, I don't understand what exactly is the appropriate racquet to play with. I had a bunch of friends who had "player's sticks" and I beat them just fine with an oversized 10 oz racquet.

thefan
04-14-2007, 09:57 PM
I was in reference to high school players, a PS 85 would put them at just too much of a disadvantage.


Hey SFrazeur, I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind this. Why would a PS85 put a high school player at a disadvantage?

I'm in HS but not part of any team (my school doesnt have a team). I would consider myself a beginner with good strokes, but need to improve on footwork and consistency. I play/ practice with my PS85 most of the time. Will continuing to play with this racquet hurt my game?

Redflea
04-14-2007, 10:02 PM
Funny...my son had a similar reaction to hitting w/one of my T2000s...I have two, and we took them out to hit together. He loved it...after about 15 minutes I was ready to switch back, but he wanted to keep using it. So I let him...he wasn't hitting as well as he normally does, but he was hitting much better than I thought he would. He kept saying how much he liked it and didn't want to switch back. I finally forced him to after him using it for about a hald an hour. He wouldn't have been able to use it for a two-set match, too heavy for him, but I thought it was funny to see how much he liked it.

Duzza
04-14-2007, 10:09 PM
Hey SFrazeur, I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind this. Why would a PS85 put a high school player at a disadvantage?

I'm in HS but not part of any team (my school doesnt have a team). I would consider myself a beginner with good strokes, but need to improve on footwork and consistency. I play/ practice with my PS85 most of the time. Will continuing to play with this racquet hurt my game?

It will not hurt your game. It will however hinder your results greatly.

Kaptain Karl
04-14-2007, 10:17 PM
KK claims to be an 'educator' ...Nope.

... and this is how he educates! - by totally condemning something, no questions asked.How strange. I don't remember "totally condemning" the frame, and I challenge to find such a post from me. (I think you are imagining things, Deuce.)

Coaches' like the one in the opening post and KK refuse to take this sensible course because they're afraid of looking bad if the kid actually wins with the old frame.
By condemning it and not allowing it to be tried, they can't look foolish. It's all about saving their 'reputation'.I hope I'm not going to be billed for this psychoanalysis. (Mostly because your imagination has gotten carried-away again....)

- KK

SFrazeur
04-14-2007, 10:26 PM
Hey SFrazeur, I'm interested in hearing your reasoning behind this. Why would a PS85 put a high school player at a disadvantage?

I'm in HS but not part of any team (my school doesnt have a team). I would consider myself a beginner with good strokes, but need to improve on footwork and consistency. I play/ practice with my PS85 most of the time. Will continuing to play with this racquet hurt my game?

It will not hurt your game. It will however hinder your results greatly.

I would concur with Duzza here.

BigboyDan
04-14-2007, 10:40 PM
What we have here are coaches who can't coach. The worst thing that a good player can do is play high school tennis - participation is NOT intended to serve individual player developement.

Deuce
04-14-2007, 10:58 PM
Deuce
KK claims to be an 'educator' ...
Nope.
In post #24, you wrote:
"Anyone actively involved in Jr High and High School Education -- even those on the periphery -- know teenagers' brains haven't fully developed yet."
Seems to me that if you're "involved in Jr. High and High School Education", then you're claiming to be an educator...

How strange. I don't remember "totally condemning" the frame, and I challenge to find such a post from me. (I think you are imagining things, Deuce.)
Ok.
In post #8, you write:
"Are you willing to make such a big "case" of choosing to play with [a ridiculous] frame?"
Seems like a condemnation to me.

And once again from your post #24 - you are very obviously condemning the boy's use of the racquet (without allowing for the results to be seen):
"We don't allow idiotic choices for many reasons.... If his under-developed Stupid Filter has him on my practice courts with it ... that's his choice. (But I'll not take him seriously.)"

I hope you don't call "your boys" "stupid" or "idiotic" to their faces just because they want to do things like experiment with an old tennis racquet.

You're a funny guy, Karl - I'm just glad that you were never Kaptain of any of any of my tennis teams.

Kaptain Karl
04-14-2007, 11:11 PM
In post #27, you wrote:
"Anyone actively involved in Jr High and High School Education -- even those on the periphery -- know teenagers' brains haven't fully developed yet."
Seems to me that if you're "involved in Jr. High and High School Education", then you're claiming to be an educator...Wrong again. Your "inferer" is broken.

Ok - once again from your post #27 - you are condemning the boy's use of the racquet (without allowing for the results to be seen)By your choice of the word "condemning" you are over-stating my position. (But I guess you thought it made your argument that much stronger, huh?)

I hope you don't call "your boys" "stupid" to their faces ...NWIP. Your manipulation of my posts is merely you using serial Straw Man arguments. (It must be so ... inconvenient ... to actually address any of my points, huh? You take the "easy route" by simply arguing against what you *wish* I'd posted.)

Thanks for playing.

- KK

Sakumo
04-14-2007, 11:13 PM
SFrazeur, I'm sorry but I usually agree completely with your posts but your first one was absolute bull crap. When I was a 6-7th grader I was about a 4.5, (Your typical HS student) And I played with the PS 85. What is wrong with that? Absolutely nothing. Now I play with the K90, are you going to say I shouldn't? I'm sorry but the player should play with what makes him play BEST. Maybe what makes him play best is a PS 85. You need to watch the player play with this racket before just making an assumption like "This racket is too good for you." If you were my coach, I would be lining up to get you fired for trying to make me play with a different racket because you think it will make me play "better."

I mean no offense, but wow, I would not like to have you as my coach, and I don't think most people here would, if you won't let them play with the racket that makes them play better or makes them the better player in the long run.

Deuce
04-14-2007, 11:21 PM
KK...
Seems pretty clear to me that if you state that you're a High School tennis coach, and then write "Anyone actively involved in Jr High and High School Education -- even those on the periphery -- know teenagers' brains haven't fully developed yet.", then you are identifying yourself as an educator.

You also clearly condemn the racquet (by referring to it as "ridiculous", and you obviously condemn the boy's decision to use the racquet by calling such a decision "stupid" and "idiotic".
That you claim to have made no such condemnations is quite interesting, given the proof I've provided.
I addressed your claims fully and concisely with direct quotes taken from your posts. I cannot be more direct than that. If I thus proved you wrong, don't get sore at me - you asked me to do it.

Your claims of "manipulation" are just that - manipulation.
I simply said that I hope you don't speak to "your boys" in the same manner in which you refer to the young originator of this thread.

And they made you a moderator?
Wow.

pow
04-14-2007, 11:52 PM
I think the coach should let the player play with what he wants. If the player does not get good results, then he won't get a spot on the team, but if he is winning their matches and earning his keep then I couldn't care less with what he is using. Let the player realize for himself how serious he wants to be, if he can't win with the racquet, he'll figure it out and switch back. If he can't figure it out for himself, it's still his freedom of choice to use whatever.

kingdaddy41788
04-15-2007, 01:54 AM
That is a logical fallacy, begging the question. Invalid argument.



You are entitled to your opinion, the same as I am entitled to my own professional opinion. Please respect that.



Against equal level players with modern racquets he is at a disadvantage.
When did I state the the racquet it's self was a bad racquet. Never did. Inappropriate, unreasonable yes.



No I'm just being confused by your statements.

How is it a logical fallacy? If you're going to say things like that, you've got to provide some reasoning. Who's to say modern racquets are better? 90% of pros on your would disagree with you. Modern racquets don't help anyone's game. You play how you play.

If I said you you said it was a bad racquet, I may have just been frustrated with your delusions that modern racquets are "better."

It wasn't an opinion. If it was, I'd have disagreed. You said it puts them at a disadvantage. You stated it like fact. It wouldn't necessarily put them at a disadvantage, and as a coach you should recognize that. Coaches like this are the reason high school tennis has such a bad reputation. My high school coach (last year) was the biggest jerk I've ever met in my life. And he knew nothing about tennis (unfortunately, few high school coaches do). I'm not saying you know nothing about tennis; I have no experience with your tennis knowledge outside of this thread. What I am saying is that I think you're being EXTREMELY closed-minded.

fgs
04-15-2007, 06:19 AM
ladies and gentlemen,
i honestly think this is a very amusing thread, i've gone through it for the third time now. so, first up is our viper, the op, complaining that a mean coach had him run five laps because he dared come play with a badminton racquet. viper is also considering himself a vintage racquet junkie. in my opinion that should and could be quite "cool" "if you know wha' i'm sayin'" at that age (high school < 18yrs). it is also interesting to find out that obviously viper considers the t3000 has a great feel, and was able to literally blast back backhands whereever he wanted.
so, while i can't rule out that that coach is a complete idiot, i do have my doubts that someone with a tennis teaching position would call a t3000 a "badminton" racquet. next point is, we only find out about this coache's attitude from the word of the punished. the punished admits that he was blasting backhands wherever he wanted and i suppose that he was supposed to do something else while on court with his team-mates. so, while i cannot exclude, i cannot really believe that he had to run those five laps due to the unwillingness to leave that vintage racquet aside and start a constructive tennis practice with his colleagues.
now, what made me question viper - the fact that he stated that the t3000 has great feel. it surely feels different from todays racquets, it even felt different from the other racquets way back then, even the metal ones, but i really never considered the raquet to have great feel.
i just wonder how many of the posters in this thread, no matter whether condemning the presumed attitude of the coach or agreeing with it, have played the t3000. i bet quite few, since they did not understand why sfrazeur said that it would put a player at a disadvantage.:D

kingdaddy41788
04-15-2007, 09:48 AM
perhaps - and I could be wrong here (it's happened before) - he didn't mean so much that he thought the racquet had great feel as he meant that it felt great to him to hit with it. I don't think those two phrases mean the same thing...

Kaptain Karl
04-15-2007, 12:18 PM
Deuce - Since you've dubbed me "an educator," this educator gives you a "D" in Reading Comprehension.

KK...
Seems pretty clear to me that if you state that you're a High School tennis coach, and then write "Anyone actively involved in Jr High and High School Education -- even those on the periphery -- know teenagers' brains haven't fully developed yet.", then you are identifying yourself as an educator.Nope. (Since you have yet to ask why I post you have leaped to an inaccurate conclusion ... I'll do you the favor of answering anyway.)

My only involvement with the School District is as a Tennis Coach. If any Staff member asks to be the Coach, I am -- by policy -- terminated. Because of the tenuous nature of my position, I actually consider myself one of those "on the periphery." (I used to be a "Tennis Educator" (Tennis Instructor) but now I just Coach ... which isn't the same.)

You also clearly condemn the racquet ...Never did I post any such thing.

...(by referring to it as "ridiculous" ...No. You're inferring "condemnation". I already posted that your inference is mistaken.

... and you obviously condemn the boy's decision to use the racquet by calling such a decision "stupid" ... Never did I post any such thing. You're conflating my points to create your own Straw Man.

... and "idiotic".Nope. You cannot quote me there, either.

Your claims of "manipulation" are just that - manipulation.You still get a "D".

Thanks for playing.

- KK

caesar66
04-15-2007, 02:56 PM
Lets think about this...most high school players will never see a pro tournament from anywhere besides a spectator seat. They won't see pro coaching or play against pros. Thus, to say that since federer and sampras use frames that are of heavy weight and small face size, so all players should , is misleading, as we're talking about two of the greatest players ever. They are in a completely different caliber than most high school players will ever see. College tennis, however, is a viable destination for many high schoolers, from NAIA and Junior colleges to D-I schools. Poll most college players or go and see college matches and you will see that the most successful players at all levels of college tennis are largely baseliners with at least 95" headsizes. Many come to net more often than you see in pro matches, but still not enough to be seen as mostly all court or mostly serve/volley. I watch the best college team in the US, the no.1 UGA tennis team, regularly. No one on the squad plays with a racquet under 95". John Isner, the number one player in the nation, uses a Prince O3 white. Its probably modified, but I bet you it is easier to use than a PS 6.0 85, and by far easier than a T-3000. I bet that if you looked at the top teams and players at other levels of college tennis you would see a similar trend of 95" and up racquets, with some outliers here or there. If these players, who are more realistic potential tennis role models than the top professional tennis players in the world, are not out there using T-3000s and ps 85s, perhaps they are not the best racquets for the avg. HS student.
I feel that this is relevant because of what I feel a High School tennis coach should be. IF we can agree that most HS tennis players wont hit the pro tour but could at least possibly play junior college tennis, and IF we feel that the rationale for tennis coaching should be to strive to push the players to play at the highest level their potential allows, then why wouldnt the coaches push to have the high school players play well enough to be on a college team. If we know that success in college tennis, at all levels, is primarily a manifestation of the "modern game" of baselining/a little all courting and 95" and up racquets, is it not the coach's job to train the players to be strong players with this modern game in mind? I hope this all makes sense, it does in my head. I am pursuing my masters in guidance counseling and hope to coach once I find a job in a school, and this will be the mindset I have.

Kaptain Karl
04-15-2007, 03:35 PM
caesar - I'd encourage my kid to play for you!

- KK

Deuce
04-15-2007, 09:25 PM
KK... I'm sure some fellow smart asses appreciate your condescention, arrogance, and manipulation.

You make claims, and then as soon as someone points out the many holes in your claims, you deny having made those claims and attempt to place the blame on someone else for 'misunderstanding', or 'misinterpreting' your meaning.
Of course, that's a lot of bull.
And, naturally, you never do explain what your 'actual' meaning was.
There is another poster on these boards who habitually does this very thing - makes ludicrous claims, and then as soon as someone points out the flaws in his claims, he then says "No - I didn't really mean that..."
This is the definition of desperation. If you can't stand by your own words and positions, then don't write the words or take the positions in the first place.

You say that I "can't quote you on that" - but I did quote you on that. And on other things. It's there for you - and for all - to see. Very clearly.

You further claim that by calling the racquet in question "ridiculous", you are not condemning it. Is "ridiculous" a word you commonly use to show your appreciation and love of something? Also, you call the kid's decision to use the racquet "stupid" and "idiotic", yet you claim that you are not condemning his decision.
This 'perspective' of yours would be interesting were it not so completely absurd.
You might as well be claiming that you never said you were a High School tennis coach - or that it doesn't say 'moderator' under your username.
Denying responsibility for writing what you clearly wrote is not the best way to increase the value of your credibility.
Hell - you're a moderator... if you're going to claim that you didn't write what you wrote and claim that you didn't mean what you meant when you didn't write what you wrote (?), then you might as well just delete your posts - that way, others won't be able to read them and thus prove you wrong.

chiru
04-15-2007, 09:47 PM
I seriously can't believe that a coach would prevent a player from playing just because of the racket he uses. Thats the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. If you're confident as a coach that hes playing like crap with a t-3000 then you should have him play a challenge match against someone ranked one spot below him. if he looses then the drops a spot, then next person, then drops a spot, etc. if a pure drive is better for him, he'll quickly switch. that said i play with a ps 85. if you gave me ANY other racket (except for the few other mids int aht calss, the tour 90s, the rds, the prestiges) all my balls fly well out. its a question of style of play. i played and played well as an s & v in high school. enough to get to top of my team. enough to get on a so cal college team (d-3 granted but i was happy nonetheless). I'm just 5'5". reason says that ap erson of my height should be playing with a gamma big bubba and scrambling on teh baseline. but thats just not my style. sure i'm never gonna be top 100 in teh nation or even in so cal (hell id be real real happy to be in the top couple hundred down here, half the guys here are INSANE). never the less. If i ever felt as a player that my ps 85 was slowin me down, id switch. so far, even at this level i've never felt completely outhit in terms of sheer pace. the other player might be more ocnsistent, get better angles, be faster than me, but thats skill, not lack of power because of my racket.

pow
04-15-2007, 09:50 PM
I seriously can't believe that a coach would prevent a player from playing just because of the racket he uses. Thats the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. If you're confident as a coach that hes playing like crap with a t-3000 then you should have him play a challenge match against someone ranked one spot below him. if he looses then the drops a spot, then next person, then drops a spot, etc. if a pure drive is better for him, he'll quickly switch. that said i play with a ps 85. if you gave me ANY other racket (except for the few other mids int aht calss, the tour 90s, the rds, the prestiges) all my balls fly well out. its a question of style of play. i played and played well as an s & v in high school. enough to get to top of my team. enough to get on a so cal college team (d-3 granted but i was happy nonetheless). I'm just 5'5". reason says that ap erson of my height should be playing with a gamma big bubba and scrambling on teh baseline. but thats just not my style. sure i'm never gonna be top 100 in teh nation or even in so cal (hell id be real real happy to be in the top couple hundred down here, half the guys here are INSANE). never the less. If i ever felt as a player that my ps 85 was slowin me down, id switch. so far, even at this level i've never felt completely outhit in terms of sheer pace. the other player might be more ocnsistent, get better angles, be faster than me, but thats skill, not lack of power because of my racket.

my thoughts exactly.

Kaptain Karl
04-15-2007, 09:59 PM
Deuce - I am not responsible for your inability to comprehend my posts. I stand by every post of mine in this thread.

- KK

rocket
04-16-2007, 05:16 AM
Okay, so one of my friends found a T3000 at a garage sale, and being the vintage racket junkie that I am, I had to try it out. So I bring it to school and once tennis practice comes around I start to hit with it. It has great feel am I litterally blasting back backhands where ever I want. So once the coach comes and sees me playing with the racket he gets mad at me and makes me do five laps for playing with a "badminton" racket.

I really like that racket too :(

Your coach did what he thought was good for you. But, there's a much more powerful tool, and that is learning by doing. Only by doing does one truly realize what works & what doesn't. He should have lined you up with a consistent & heavy hitter. If you can hang with the guy & go blow for blow, then by all means, use it.

Swissv2
04-16-2007, 05:29 AM
... the rationale for tennis coaching should be to strive to push the players to play at the highest level their potential allows, then why wouldnt the coaches push to have the high school players play well enough to be on a college team.

I second that.

University of Georgia is the #1 Division I team in the nation, at a record of 23-0 for the season, and 11-0 for the conference.

Many kids in these forums aspire to go to a D1 school, so to see what kind of racquets the guys at this school plays with lends a little bit of credibility to the notion that "you must use the racquet that fully realizes your potential" instead of reaching for some fantasized potential in a T3000.

snoopy
04-16-2007, 08:15 AM
This thread demonstrates why I could never be a high school teacher.

Your coach is not being mean he's doing what's right. The op needs to realize that he's part of a team and the coach's job is to make sure the team plays well. Have some common sense, the T3000 is an outdated piece of equipment. Use a racquet that gives yourself and your team the best chance of winning. I guarantee that there are many, many frames out there that you play drastically better with.

It would also be revealling if you posted your NTRP level. If your a 4.5 playing against 3.0s than maybe you've got an argument for using the T3000 (your being sporting and leveling the playing field). However, if your up against competion that's equal to or better than you, well then you've really got no case.

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 08:23 AM
Lets think about this...most high school players will never see a pro tournament from anywhere besides a spectator seat. They won't see pro coaching or play against pros. Thus, to say that since federer and sampras use frames that are of heavy weight and small face size, so all players should , is misleading, as we're talking about two of the greatest players ever. They are in a completely different caliber than most high school players will ever see. College tennis, however, is a viable destination for many high schoolers, from NAIA and Junior colleges to D-I schools. Poll most college players or go and see college matches and you will see that the most successful players at all levels of college tennis are largely baseliners with at least 95" headsizes. Many come to net more often than you see in pro matches, but still not enough to be seen as mostly all court or mostly serve/volley. I watch the best college team in the US, the no.1 UGA tennis team, regularly. No one on the squad plays with a racquet under 95". John Isner, the number one player in the nation, uses a Prince O3 white. Its probably modified, but I bet you it is easier to use than a PS 6.0 85, and by far easier than a T-3000. I bet that if you looked at the top teams and players at other levels of college tennis you would see a similar trend of 95" and up racquets, with some outliers here or there. If these players, who are more realistic potential tennis role models than the top professional tennis players in the world, are not out there using T-3000s and ps 85s, perhaps they are not the best racquets for the avg. HS student.
I feel that this is relevant because of what I feel a High School tennis coach should be. IF we can agree that most HS tennis players wont hit the pro tour but could at least possibly play junior college tennis, and IF we feel that the rationale for tennis coaching should be to strive to push the players to play at the highest level their potential allows, then why wouldnt the coaches push to have the high school players play well enough to be on a college team. If we know that success in college tennis, at all levels, is primarily a manifestation of the "modern game" of baselining/a little all courting and 95" and up racquets, is it not the coach's job to train the players to be strong players with this modern game in mind? I hope this all makes sense, it does in my head. I am pursuing my masters in guidance counseling and hope to coach once I find a job in a school, and this will be the mindset I have.

I agree to a certain extent. But look at the UT (yes I'm a longhorn) tennis team. Evan Bridges (went to Tomball HS) plays with a Prince NXG Graphite (92 sq. in. headsize). Many of the players on the pro tour also use 95" headsizes and up. But, it's all about what feels best in the player's hand. It makes no difference who uses what. Some prefer controlled racquets because they have all the power they need. Some prefer power-oriented racquets because they can control it. It's all about how the player feels, not what top pros are using, not what college players are using, not what a coach thinks you should be using (although a really good coach can generally pick a good racquet for his players. Not high school coaches. Real coaches.)

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 08:24 AM
This thread demonstrates why I could never be a high school teacher.

Your coach is not being mean he's doing what's right. The op needs to realize that he's part of a team and the coach's job is to make sure the team plays well. Have some common sense, the T3000 is an outdated piece of equipment. Use a racquet that gives yourself and your team the best chance of winning.

Are the prestige classic and the PS85 outdated racquets too? Because top pros (and many amateur players) definitely still use the prestige classic, so I wouldn't call it outdated.

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 08:28 AM
I seriously can't believe that a coach would prevent a player from playing just because of the racket he uses. Thats the most ridiculous thing i've ever heard. If you're confident as a coach that hes playing like crap with a t-3000 then you should have him play a challenge match against someone ranked one spot below him. if he looses then the drops a spot, then next person, then drops a spot, etc. if a pure drive is better for him, he'll quickly switch. that said i play with a ps 85. if you gave me ANY other racket (except for the few other mids int aht calss, the tour 90s, the rds, the prestiges) all my balls fly well out. its a question of style of play. i played and played well as an s & v in high school. enough to get to top of my team. enough to get on a so cal college team (d-3 granted but i was happy nonetheless). I'm just 5'5". reason says that ap erson of my height should be playing with a gamma big bubba and scrambling on teh baseline. but thats just not my style. sure i'm never gonna be top 100 in teh nation or even in so cal (hell id be real real happy to be in the top couple hundred down here, half the guys here are INSANE). never the less. If i ever felt as a player that my ps 85 was slowin me down, id switch. so far, even at this level i've never felt completely outhit in terms of sheer pace. the other player might be more ocnsistent, get better angles, be faster than me, but thats skill, not lack of power because of my racket.

Precisely. Instead of being a complete idiot, your coach should have just had you challenge teammates. If you stay in your spot, he has no business telling you what racquet to use. Better yet, depending on how good you are, challenge him to beat you while you're playing with the T-2000 (it was a joke. Don't really do that unless you don't want to play.)

Your coach did what he thought was good for you. But, there's a much more powerful tool, and that is learning by doing. Only by doing does one truly realize what works & what doesn't. He should have lined you up with a consistent & heavy hitter. If you can hang with the guy & go blow for blow, then by all means, use it.

Exactly.

How can anyone argue with this?

snoopy
04-16-2007, 08:30 AM
Kingdaddy this is high school tennis, the op is not a pro. Plus he wants to use a T3000, that's an outdated frame, no doubt.

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 08:41 AM
Kingdaddy this is high school tennis, the op is not a pro. Plus he wants to use a T3000, that's an outdated frame, no doubt.

I know he's not pro. That isn't the point. All I'm saying is if he likes it, let him play with it. It's nobody's business telling him what racquet he can and can't use. If he likes it, let him play with it. He still has to challenge everyone on the team just like everyone else. If he's no good with it, he'll lose, and likely switch to something else. All I'm saying was the coach handled it entirely the wrong way. It's more than likely that the op would lose his challenge matches. But what if he really plays well with it. If he's winning, who cares what he's playing with. If he's losing, who cares because he'll end up off the team.

If you'd read my last three posts, you would have noticed I wasn't really talking about pros. Try to read more carefully.

snoopy
04-16-2007, 08:51 AM
He's on a team, it is is team's and coach's business. He's not playing on his own. He has an obligation to play the best he can, and the coach has an obligation to help him play the best he can. If he insists on using inferior equipment because he like the way it feels then he's being selfish.

fishuuuuu
04-16-2007, 08:52 AM
I wonder how many of you naysayers against SFrazeur have coached a team to title success wielding only T3000s and PS85s? Point made.

DavaiMarat
04-16-2007, 10:02 AM
I use to coach elite juniors and I'd be probably apt to do the same thing. If you're going to mess around with a T3000 don't do it in front of me because of two reasons. Are you going to be to get another few frames for spares for a tourney? Are you going to seriously be playing with that racquet long term? It's weighting and heft are seriously going to change the way u swing. Is tha something you seriously want to get use too? Lastly, in todays power game your limiting yourself with your frame, you really want to be returning 110+ MPH serves with a aluminum stick?

Yeah so if I was coaching you and saw you playing that POS I would think you were just fooling around and hence wasting 'my' time.

No offence dude but hang that on a wall and get playing with your normal frames.

A Prince Original Graphite...a Prostaff 6.0 ...fine, a T3000? No way in hell.

Tour 90
04-16-2007, 10:23 AM
I use to coach elite juniors and I'd be probably apt to do the same thing. If you're going to mess around with a T3000 don't do it in front of me because of two reasons. Are you going to be to get another few frames for spares for a tourney? Are you going to seriously be playing with that racquet long term? It's weighting and heft are seriously going to change the way u swing. Is tha something you seriously want to get use too? Lastly, in todays power game your limiting yourself with your frame, you really want to be returning 110+ MPH serves with a aluminum stick?

Yeah so if I was coaching you and saw you playing that POS I would think you were just fooling around and hence wasting 'my' time.

No offence dude but hang that on a wall and get playing with your normal frames.

A Prince Original Graphite...a Prostaff 6.0 ...fine, a T3000? No way in hell.

That's exactly what I would say if I was a coach. If I came to my HS practice with a t3000, it would be the same as telling the coach that I didn't care about being there.

Mr. Blond
04-16-2007, 10:43 AM
wow, this thread has turned into a monster....lol

as a co-conspirator and High school tennis coach (j/k about the conspiracy theory). I probably would let the guy fool around with the stick, but in match play and drills and the like, use a more practical racquet. Here are some reasons why an experience coach my demand or even dictate things like a racquet.

In my 4 years coaching I have witnessed a few things about teenagers that kind of enforce why they need coaches. some of them are as follows:

example 1:the number 1 ranked player on a team switching racquets a week before a regional competition because a new model came out that has a 'cooler' paint-job.

example 2:using shoes that hurt their feet because the #1 player in the world wears them.

example 3: Refusing to use a racquet because it is not the most expensive in the line produced by a manufacturer.

example 4:Only wearing clima wear because only "Adidas could possibly produce a high performance shirt"

example 5:Switching what racquet you use because your girlfriend thinks your current stick is ugly.

No doubt, as a coach you can not dictate everything, but it is a strong argument about teens and decision making. Especially from an adult perspective.

Teens, sorry if this sounds harsh, I am trying to be objective......but in cases like this, experience does beat out enthusiasm.

slice bh compliment
04-16-2007, 10:52 AM
...My wife once worked for a company that prohibited employees from reading a newspaper during lunch because they were concerned how it would look if an investor passed by in the hallway.

Wow. I'm bascially betting on the fact that my financial planner and my broker look at a paper every now and then!

SFrazeur
04-16-2007, 10:58 AM
"blabit", Those reasons would be funny if they were not sadly true.

They rank up there with a kid I was teaching in a group lesson that was trying to insist on using the Hawaiian grip because he thought it looked cool.

The Gorilla
04-16-2007, 11:05 AM
^^^^worked pretty well for brugera.

Tennisgrl
04-16-2007, 11:06 AM
What we have here are coaches who can't coach. The worst thing that a good player can do is play high school tennis - participation is NOT intended to serve individual player developement.

Here, here - I agree with BigboyDan and Deuce. It implies that sticks replace talent, the same way that expensive shoes make you "run faster," which is BS. It's about the coaches egos. 99.9 percent of these kids won't wind up on the pro circuit, so who cares? If they lose, oh well, lesson learned. It's the kind of elitism that drives kids away from the sport and spoils what tennis should be about. I've kicked many asses with cheap sticks, expensive sticks, it didn't matter because the opponent sucked, so big deal.

drakulie
04-16-2007, 12:03 PM
Okay, so one of my friends found a T3000 at a garage sale, and being the vintage racket junkie that I am, I had to try it out. So I bring it to school and once tennis practice comes around I start to hit with it. It has great feel am I litterally blasting back backhands where ever I want. So once the coach comes and sees me playing with the racket he gets mad at me and makes me do five laps for playing with a "badminton" racket.

Tell your coach if he doesn't like your "badminton racquet", then he needs to buy you a few pair of matched racquets he feels are appropriate. While he is at it, tell him you would also like new strings, shoes, socks, etc. Furthermore, he needs to ensure he gets you shoes for all surfaces. I am sure he wouldn't want you to be wearing clay shoes on hard courts or vice versa.

Like many others have pointed out, if his job as a coach is to put you in the best position to win, and this includes picking out your frame>> then it would also include picking out the rest of your gear.

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 12:09 PM
Tell your coach if he doesn't like your "badminton racquet", then he needs to buy you a few pair of matched racquets he feels are appropriate. While he is at it, tell him you would also like new strings, shoes, socks, etc. Furthermore, he needs to ensure he gets you shoes for all surfaces. I am sure he wouldn't want you to be wearing clay shoes on hard courts or vice versa.

Like many others have pointed out, if his job as a coach is to put you in the best position to win, and this includes picking out your frame>> then it would also include picking out the rest of your gear.

Beautiful.

Redflea
04-16-2007, 12:42 PM
So many people have so little respect for the teaching profession...classroom or phys ed/sports. Everyone has been taught, and a huge percentage of people then decide based on their time as a "consumer" in a classroom that they 1) could do it better than the teachers they have/had, and therefore 2) don't have to listen to the teachers they have/had. In the vast majority of the cases, they are wrong in both assumptions.

This attitude is in spades in this thread...the hubris that random strangers replying on the internet to someone they've never met or seen play know more about this situation than the actual coach in a specific situation w/a player he knows on a team he knows in a league/division he knows, or that they know better about this issue than other coaches who reply based on actual experiences coaching a team of teenagers. is amazing to me.

Plus as a bonus there is sarcastic, borderline insulting tone of some of the replies. Too bad...

drakulie
04-16-2007, 01:07 PM
the hubris that random strangers replying on the internet to someone they've never met or seen play know more about this situation than the actual coach

Uhmmm??? No one replying to this thread "have met or seen the coach" either. This coach may not know anything about tennis. If we take the OP's post as fact, then it is a fact this coach called a tennis racquet a "badminton racquet". Is that stupidity? or sarcasm?

rocket
04-16-2007, 01:14 PM
The OP was only hitting around with the newly acquired T-3000, no need for his coach to get so mad about. If the coach wanted to make his point, then he'd get the OP to hit with a strong player, using the alu frame. He'd see for himself soon enough...

0d1n
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
^^^^worked pretty well for brugera.

The "hawaiian grip guy" was Alberto Berasategui not Sergi Bruguera mate. Bruguera used a western grip (pretty exaggerated I grant you, but no hawaiian). And the fact that it worked for 1 (ONE !) player on the pro tour from the hundreds and hundreds I've seen over the years doesn't make it a good idea for high school kids!
IMHO at least half the people recommending to the OP to continue with his T3000 adventure haven't seen that racquet in their whole life. Why stop there ... why not play with a Dunlop woodie, they were some really "mean sticks" in their time... :rolleyes:.
By the way, as long as it's for fun, people can play whatever the he|| they want, but if you play for a competitive team, then you are not playing for fun, you are playing to win. As a result playing with that stick in that case (competitive situation) would be stupid...plain and simple. I don't generally like do/don't do this because I say so types, and I think in this case the coach might have lost his temper a bit, but he was still right.

Kaptain Karl
04-16-2007, 01:37 PM
Some of you are attributing a great deal of accuracy to the OP's report. Most kids who post whines like his ... exaggerate ... to make themselves look better and the "mean ol' Coach" look worse.

(Of course, this post is from a Mean Ol' Coach. You'll probably still choose to side with the OP's version of the story....)

- KK

0d1n
04-16-2007, 01:51 PM
Some of you are attributing a great deal of accuracy to the OP's report. Most kids who post whines like his ... exaggerate ... to make themselves look better and the "mean ol' Coach" look worse.

(Of course, this post is from a Mean Ol' Coach. You'll probably still choose to side with the OP's version of the story....)

- KK

No, we won't ;)

NoBadMojo
04-16-2007, 02:05 PM
ya know...why even bother to have a coach based upon this thread. Not only are we hearing only one side of the story, but i think it safe to assume that many of the people ridiculing a coach they know nothing about have never even hit w. a T3000....was considered a lousy POS frame even back in the day, and not exactly a comfortable hit. not to mention being heavy and having a sweetspot the size of a pea. this racquet has been obsolete for some 20 years or more. the coach is giving this kid good advice whether he knows much about tennis or not, but i wouldnt have forced him to change to something reasonable..the OP is only hurting himself. maybe he should lead the frame up to sw2 (whatever that is) while he is at it if it isnt already that heavy. sometimes lessons are better learned the harder way, and sometimes it takes learning lessons the harder way before young people <and some older people> have some sort of understanding about listening to and learning from people who know more than they do, rather than insulting them instead.
maybe this is one of those high school teams where everyone makes the team..but that's another topic all together. dont get me started on THAT one.

Redflea
04-16-2007, 02:09 PM
Uhmmm??? No one replying to this thread "have met or seen the coach" either. This coach may not know anything about tennis. If we take the OP's post as fact, then it is a fact this coach called a tennis racquet a "badminton racquet". Is that stupidity? or sarcasm?

I don't think it's a sensible position to assume the worst about the coach...unless you want to theoretical about it. If you assume the OP knows what he's doing/talking about you have to give the coach similar leeway.

Regarding comments, I didn't want to single anyone out...then it gets personal. However, since you volunteered. ;)

Tell your coach if he doesn't like your "badminton racquet", then he needs to buy you a few pair of matched racquets he feels are appropriate. While he is at it, tell him you would also like new strings, shoes, socks, etc. Furthermore, he needs to ensure he gets you shoes for all surfaces. I am sure he wouldn't want you to be wearing clay shoes on hard courts or vice versa.

Sounds like you were advising this kid/other kids reading this thread that a coach telling a them that the racquet they want to use is wrong for him is such a silly idea that it is only worth lampooning. IMHO, using the equipment that brings out your best (or not using equipment that inhibits your best) is one of the central responsibilities of a good coach - equipment can be an important enabler or limiter, depending on the choices made.

I'm not validating the behavior of the coach (sending him off on laps)...I don't know the context or other previous incidents, etc., but it's probably not how I would have reacted. :)

The Gorilla
04-16-2007, 03:01 PM
The "hawaiian grip guy" was Alberto Berasategui not Sergi Bruguera mate. Bruguera used a western grip (pretty exaggerated I grant you, but no hawaiian).

yeah I know, it's weird, I edited that immediately after posting but it's still unchanged.

drakulie
04-16-2007, 03:03 PM
IMHO, using the equipment that brings out your best (or not using equipment that inhibits your best) is one of the central responsibilities of a good coach - equipment can be an important enabler or limiter, depending on the choices made.

I absolutely agree. However, if we take the OP's statements as fact>>> shouldn't the coach allow the student to play with whatever makes him play best? Doesn't sound like he did. Not the sign of a good coach.

Additionally, I only stated what I said to add another view to this discussion. If coaches are going to demand players use certain equipment>>> isn't it then their responsibility to supply that equipment?

Mr. Blond
04-16-2007, 04:21 PM
Here, here - I agree with BigboyDan and Deuce. It implies that sticks replace talent, the same way that expensive shoes make you "run faster," which is BS. It's about the coaches egos. 99.9 percent of these kids won't wind up on the pro circuit, so who cares? If they lose, oh well, lesson learned. It's the kind of elitism that drives kids away from the sport and spoils what tennis should be about. I've kicked many asses with cheap sticks, expensive sticks, it didn't matter because the opponent sucked, so big deal.

how about the ego of the kid who decides to scrap and entire teams record because he is making a foolish decision without thinking it through. It is not just about the kid and what he/she wants. That Kid is on a team, and his play is part of that teams record.

I agree, we should encourage kids to play, that is why I coach a no cut team. At the end of the day though, forget the ego, as a coach, part of that is advising with equipment. I don't know what USPTA that does not recomend and assist with racquets. Is that coach doing it for ego?

No one knows for sure the coaches reason, and maybe he saw something in the Op's game with that racquet that made him tell the kid to put it down. Besides, how do we know if the kid gave the coach attitude or not.....could that be the reason for laps?

We just don't have enough info here to be flaming all high school tennis coaches....because I know in my area, we (the coaches) do our best to foster postive images of tennis in general, which includes a love for the sport at all levels, not just the elite college bound players!

Mr. Blond
04-16-2007, 04:27 PM
"blabit", Those reasons would be funny if they were not sadly true.

They rank up there with a kid I was teaching in a group lesson that was trying to insist on using the Hawaiian grip because he thought it looked cool.

I am sure you and I could swap stories for days about silly things observed from young people. While being humerous enough, I shy away from ridiculing them because at the end of the day, I do love teaching.

Even if it means the disrespect that comes with what I consider an honorable profession.

I would like to point one thing out though.........without the teachers some of you are quick to burn at the cross....you could not be flaming on the board. You learned to read and write from a teacher....so mind your perspective.

sorry, but I think in our society today people forget the fundamental importance teachers play in a community.

ok, I will get off the soapbox now.

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 04:40 PM
I absolutely agree. However, if we take the OP's statements as fact>>> shouldn't the coach allow the student to play with whatever makes him play best? Doesn't sound like he did. Not the sign of a good coach.

Additionally, I only stated what I said to add another view to this discussion. If coaches are going to demand players use certain equipment>>> isn't it then their responsibility to supply that equipment?

Yup. It is. The op is silly for wanting to play with T3000, I agree. But here's the deal: that coach is why high school tennis is so pathetic. It's why truly good players don't play high school tennis. The coaches are abhorrent. My friend and I used to get lessons with one of the best coaches in Houston (if not the best) but we would need to skip after school practice one day a week for private lessons. Our coach wouldn't have it, even though he knew nothing about tennis (he plays, but he's a coach because his dad was a football player for rice years ago and he has football coach mentality - which doesn't work for *most* tennis players). These coaches should be slapped around a little. If you want to know how to effectively coach teenagers, here's a tip: Be fun. If the team loses, be encouraging, don't be a jerk. If the team wins, don't tell them that if they play like that against the next team they'll lose. Congratulate victory and encourage hard work after defeat. Honestly, coaches don't do this anymore. And they need to. If high school tennis was still fun, good players would play.

I say all this because as I've mentioned in this thread before (I'm repeating because I doubt many of you have read the entire thread) the top two players at my high school would not play for our school because the coach made it no fun. If you have a great player who is getting lessons with one of the best coaches and he needs to miss one practice a week, then let him do that. High school tennis is a different breed of team sport. Basketball teams need to practice together. Doubles teams even need to practice together. But a team of players playing singles don't need to practice together every day of the week. They all need to practice, but if they're going to lessons outside of the team practice that are much better for their game than the ones that (mostly pitiful, not all) high school coaches offer, then high school coaches should allow that. If they were truly great tennis coaches, they should probably teach tennis in the day rather than school.

Anyone seeing my point?

chiru
04-16-2007, 06:12 PM
Okay I'll agree. The original poster was perhaps being a little bit obnoxious wanting to play with a T-3000. But to be honest, I switched rackets in between jr. and sr. year and in the intermediate time fell girls tennis season for which i was a coach. Without a racket decided on, I whipped out my dad's maxply fort. completely reinvented my game. went form a baseliner with a wester forehand and 2 fisted back hand to an eastern forehand and 1hbh s&v. best decision of my life. Even now, Lansdorp (coach of my college coach) tells people when they're building (or rebuilding) their technique to go with wood. If it was the off season id encourage some people to use wood. During season, do what i did, ps85 all the way.

superstition
04-16-2007, 06:22 PM
When you can beat the best player on your team with a racquet, you can use the racquet. If you're the best player, you can use whatever racquet you want. The coach, in either situation, will have to suck it up. Arguments that "you can play better with X" aren't valid if you're the top dog. If you're a pro or feel you can play better with another racquet, that's a different story.

I've won matches with a "medium weight" wood Wilson Advantage and played worse with modern racquets. Sometimes I play better with something old and heavy. My serve was even great with a Seamco aluminum Ken Rosewall racquet that was released to compete with the T-2000/3000. It had thick nylon string in it and I could hit a pin point forehand. I couldn't volley with it, so I played from the baseline. I didn't lose a match with it and then the special rubber grommet broke.

Certainly, if I was going to play against people at my level I'd use something less demanding. But, if I'm playing someone I can beat with one of those racquets, I often chose a very demanding frame simply because it's more fun (for me) to play with a heavy racquet with a tiny head. I basically refuse to play with a racquet with a head larger than 85 inches because I don't like them. I also don't like light racquets.

Even if I was not the best player in a high school team I'd use whatever racquet I wanted and would get the results necessary to play in the matches.

slice bh compliment
04-16-2007, 06:54 PM
.... My serve was even great with a Seamco aluminum Ken Rosewall racquet that was released to compete with the T-2000/3000.....

You, my friend have a truly great serve.:grin:

[K]aotic
04-16-2007, 07:10 PM
Okay I'll agree. The original poster was perhaps being a little bit obnoxious wanting to play with a T-3000. But to be honest, I switched rackets in between jr. and sr. year and in the intermediate time fell girls tennis season for which i was a coach. Without a racket decided on, I whipped out my dad's maxply fort. completely reinvented my game. went form a baseliner with a wester forehand and 2 fisted back hand to an eastern forehand and 1hbh s&v. best decision of my life. Even now, Lansdorp (coach of my college coach) tells people when they're building (or rebuilding) their technique to go with wood. If it was the off season id encourage some people to use wood. During season, do what i did, ps85 all the way.

its not being obnoxious... he thought he was doing well so don't make fun of him for that! recall he was "blasting" backhands with it so wats wrong with using it even though the racquet is bad?

Redflea
04-16-2007, 07:32 PM
I absolutely agree. However, if we take the OP's statements as fact>>> shouldn't the coach allow the student to play with whatever makes him play best? Doesn't sound like he did. Not the sign of a good coach. [/B]

If you assume the OP is right, and the coach is wrong, you're assuming the least likely scenario...my experience w/my kids and other kids over the years is that the majority of the time the kids are, well, kids, and lack the experience and knowledge of their coaches.

Additionally, I only stated what I said to add another view to this discussion. If coaches are going to demand players use certain equipment>>> isn't it then their responsibility to supply that equipment?

I think the coach is really only demanding a certain category of equipment...namely a racquet that was manufactured in the last 10 years or so and that suits the player's skills and the competition he'll be facing. The OP doesn't only have a T3000...he's using it for fun instead of his normal racquet.

Any sport requires a minimum investment (e.g., track shoes w/spikes for track, we used to have to purchase our pads and helmets for football) and if you have spikes and still show up in converse sneakers to run the 440, a coach is well within his rights to wonder about your dedication and say "I'll see you when you come back w/something more appropriate."

kingdaddy41788
04-16-2007, 07:35 PM
I get no reply?

Kaptain Karl
04-16-2007, 09:33 PM
Yup. It is. The op is silly for wanting to play with T3000, I agree.Whew!

But here's the deal: that coach is why high school tennis is so pathetic. It's why truly good players don't play high school tennis. The coaches are abhorrent. You are making a very broad statement. One my experience (multiple states, years of competition, observation and conversation with many other Coaches) certainly belies.

My friend and I ...Ah-ha!!! So YOU are one of the "two best players" who your Coach dropped. Your "ox got gored" and you've extrapolated your experience into "all coaches stink."

These coaches should be slapped around a little.Now you advocatte Assault???

Congratulate victory and encourage hard work after defeat. Honestly, coaches don't do this anymore.Sure we do.

If you have a great player who is getting lessons with one of the best coaches and he needs to miss one practice a week, then let him do that.That's up to the Coach. (In the situation you describe, I'd probably encourage that extra training, but I won't assume a Coach who doesn't is a fool.)

High school tennis is a different breed of team sport.Oh? Like Golf, Track, Wrestling? Where the Individual results determine the Team's results? Not so "different"....

... But a team of players playing singles don't need to practice together every day of the week.The underlined portion of your quote suggests (a) a contradiction in terms and, (b) frankly, an attitude problem.

... if they're going to lessons outside of the team practice that are much better for their game than the ones that (mostly pitiful, not all) high school coaches offer, then high school coaches should allow that.Wow! Yeah. I'd call that "attitude". When you're the Coach, you run your team the way you like....

If they were truly great tennis coaches, they should probably teach tennis in the day rather than school.Nonsense! The School District cannot pay me what I make in my business. I don't coach for the money. I coach because I can help the kids develop.

Anyone seeing my point?"See it?" Yes. Agree with it? Only partly.

- KK

Deuce
04-16-2007, 10:49 PM
Your coach did what he thought was good for you. But, there's a much more powerful tool, and that is learning by doing. Only by doing does one truly realize what works & what doesn't. He should have lined you up with a consistent & heavy hitter. If you can hang with the guy & go blow for blow, then by all means, use it.


(in response to above quote)
Exactly.

How can anyone argue with this?

I must wonder why not one of the so called 'coaches' in this thread have made any comments pro or con this approach.
Instead, they all prefer to unilaterally condemn the choice to play with the older racquet without allowing for any proof of their theory that it's not possible to be competitive with other players while using that old frame.

Indeed - how can anyone argue with the approach of allowing the kid to play against a similarly talented player while using the T-3000 (or any other older racquet)? Is this not the ONLY way to settle the matter one way or the other with proof?

As I suggested earlier, perhaps coaches are too afraid to allow the kid to use the racquet in a match against a similarly talented player - because the coaches might be proven wrong.
What other possible reason could any coach have for not taking the simple approach suggested by 'rocket' and others, and settling the matter in the only provable way, and in the way that would be the most educational for the kid?

kingdaddy41788
04-17-2007, 05:43 AM
Whew!

You are making a very broad statement. One my experience (multiple states, years of competition, observation and conversation with many other Coaches) certainly belies.

Ah-ha!!! So YOU are one of the "two best players" who your Coach dropped. Your "ox got gored" and you've extrapolated your experience into "all coaches stink."

Now you advocatte Assault???

Sure we do.

That's up to the Coach. (In the situation you describe, I'd probably encourage that extra training, but I won't assume a Coach who doesn't is a fool.)

Oh? Like Golf, Track, Wrestling? Where the Individual results determine the Team's results? Not so "different"....

The underlined portion of your quote suggests (a) a contradiction in terms and, (b) frankly, an attitude problem.

Wow! Yeah. I'd call that "attitude". When you're the Coach, you run your team the way you like....

Nonsense! The School District cannot pay me what I make in my business. I don't coach for the money. I coach because I can help the kids develop.

"See it?" Yes. Agree with it? Only partly.

- KK

KK, you've called me out, and you are partially right. My advocation of assault was just an expression, not meant to be taken seriously. Looking back, it was unnecessary.

I was not, in fact, one of the two players who quit (no one was dropped from the team - they left of their own free will). I talked to my two friends (one of whom was taking lessons with the same coach as I) and they both decided they cared more about tennis outside of school than inside of school. I was the third best player at my school, and I felt it would be unfair to punish my teammates (and I thought it good to set an example for my younger friends) so I continued to play for the team. I switched coaches to take lessons at a time that did not interfere with the team's practice, which I feel ended up being a good change for me anyway (it was with this new coach that I developed a one-handed backhand that put my old two-hander to shame).

Some coaches still encourage hard work after a loss and congratulate victory, but many don't. I feel that as a coach you should recognize that. If you are one among those who do, I applaud you.

Fair enough to not assume this coach was a fool, but as a college student looking to pursue a coaching career (not high school coaching) I can tell you that he was. I knew more about tennis my freshman year than he does now. He knows old-school tennis, and there's nothing wrong with that, other than that it doesn't really work today. And you also shouldn't be telling a HS freshman that's 5' 3" that he needs to rush the net every point. I didn't listen, mind you, but I had good reason (and no reach).

Yes, it is like those other sports. I would advocate the same kind of training for these sports. If one day a week, a player for the team is getting coaching from an outside expert, that should be encouraged if he is practicing with the team the other 3 days (no after school practice on Friday) - especially if the coach is so good that he has a schedule packed full and a waiting list 3 pages long. Also, I'd like to mention that my friend and I were the only people on the team with outside lessons, and my coach set up the boys' after school practice so that it conflicted with them(he could have switched the boys and girls practices around and everyone would have been happy, but he refused to do so). I don't know if he did it on purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me.

It's not an attitude problem. If I'm practicing with the team 3 days out of the week, and one day a week I'm going to a private lesson with a great coach, that should be encouraged, not disallowed. I find it pathetic that anyone would disagree. I respected all of my teammates, and would hit with them on a regular basis outside of team practice. But for the HS coach to require that I hit with my teammates during the only time of the week that I can have a lesson with my coach is pretty sad. It wasn't like I never practiced and thought I was great or something. I was on the court more than anyone else on the team.

Looking at the "mostly pitiful" comment, it appears to me that it can be taken two ways. I did not mean that most high school coaches are pitiful, I meant that most of the drills my high school coach offered were, and I assume there are many out there that are just as bad (and worse). It's got nothing to do with attitude.

I'm confused. Do you coach a HS team, or teach tennis outside of it. This would help me to understand where you're coming from and what you meant by the statement highlighted in red.

The point I'm trying to make here is that a lot of HS coaches today (certainly not all - we had a fantastic coach in or district, I only wish I'd gone to that high school) are actually keeping their players from getting better with this kind of behavior. Every other coach in our district allowed players to miss practice for private lessons one day a week. It's good for players to have private lessons and should be encouraged. It's best if a player can set up a time that does not interfere with the team's practice, but if the coach is so busy that this isn't possible, then it should still be allowed.

drakulie
04-17-2007, 05:51 AM
If you assume the OP is right, and the coach is wrong, you're assuming the least likely scenario...my experience w/my kids and other kids over the years is that the majority of the time the kids are, well, kids, and lack the experience and knowledge of their coaches.

Redflea, I'm not assuming anything. As I said, I'm going by exactly what the OP provided. Like you said, it may very well be the most least likely scenario, but unfortunatley >> none of us were there.

I work with kids (been doing it 20+ years), so I definitely agree with your statement above. Kids are >>> kids. They lack experience, knowledge, etc. However, if he performs well with one racquet over another>> then so be it. A coach refusing to allow him to do so, and possibly in the process experience a bad loss (in practice) is hardly setting him on the path of knowledge.

I think the coach is really only demanding a certain category of equipment...namely a racquet that was manufactured in the last 10 years or so and that suits the player's skills and the competition he'll be facing. The OP doesn't only have a T3000...he's using it for fun instead of his normal racquet.

Any sport requires a minimum investment (e.g., track shoes w/spikes for track, we used to have to purchase our pads and helmets for football) and if you have spikes and still show up in converse sneakers to run the 440, a coach is well within his rights to wonder about your dedication and say "I'll see you when you come back w/something more appropriate."

Here I disagree with you. If he is going to demand a certain type of equipment, because he does not "approve" of the equipment that the player has >> then he needs to provide it. Additionally, making him run laps is punitive, and not helping anyone. If anything, in this case it made this kid more stubborn, and pushed him away from his coach by seeking guidance elsewhere>>>> an internet forum.

rocket
04-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Exactly.

How can anyone argue with this?

What other possible reason could any coach have for not taking the simple approach suggested by 'rocket' and others, and settling the matter in the only provable way, and in the way that would be the most educational for the kid?

Thanks guys for supporting my thought on this. :D

kingdaddy41788
04-17-2007, 07:13 AM
No problem. I'd feel ridiculous if I hadn't.

rocket
04-17-2007, 07:14 AM
Additionally, making him run laps is punitive, and not helping anyone. If anything, in this case it made this kid more stubborn, and pushed him away from his coach by seeking guidance elsewhere>>>> an internet forum.

Exactly, telling him 'why not' is one thing, but showing him 'why not' is even better. There won't be any doubt left in the youngster's mind that way. And if he proves that he can hit with it, then hey, something new has been discovered.

Redflea
04-17-2007, 07:52 AM
Redflea, I'm not assuming anything. As I said, I'm going by exactly what the OP provided. Like you said, it may very well be the most least likely scenario, but unfortunatley >> none of us were there.

Where we differ is that I see "going by exactly what the OP provided" is making an assumption that the OP reports the context/situation/facts completely and objectively. That's tough for any of us to do, regardless of age/experience, particularly when an emotional component is thrown in (punishment) that colors our view of the event. And frankly, if one of my friends told me he had switched to the T3000 and was sure he could beat me now, I'd immediately offer to play a match and put an especially juicy bet on it. C'mon...you telling me you wouldn't smell fresh meat if an opponent said "Would you like me to use my T3000 in the final against you?" ;)

I work with kids (been doing it 20+ years), so I definitely agree with your statement above. Kids are >>> kids. They lack experience, knowledge, etc. However, if he performs well with one racquet over another>> then so be it. A coach refusing to allow him to do so, and possibly in the process experience a bad loss (in practice) is hardly setting him on the path of knowledge. [/B]

Here I disagree with you. If he is going to demand a certain type of equipment, because he does not "approve" of the equipment that the player has >> then he needs to provide it. Additionally, making him run laps is punitive, and not helping anyone. If anything, in this case it made this kid more stubborn, and pushed him away from his coach by seeking guidance elsewhere>>>> an internet forum.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, then, Drak. :)

Schools need to provide infrastructure, administration, guidance, standards, and a safe environment. Playing fields, goals/baskets, courts, nets, often part of the uniform, etc., coaches, rules, processes, etc. Those are all specified and provided by the school. Players need to provide personal equipment that meets safety standards (e.g., members of a bike team need to wear a helmet that matches safety requirements, football team members need a cup and mouthguard that meets certain standards) and saying that setting a standard = school has to buy it is not supported by precedent (at least here in the US, not speaking world-wide) or logic. Schools set dress codes all the time, and are not required to buy a wardrobe for each of their students.

But getting back to the specifics of this post. If, as you say, we stick to the facts from the OP, this isn't about a kid showing up with his dad's old T3000, because he's too poor to afford a modern racquet. It's about a kid wanting to play around with an older racquet because it's different, fun, interesting, various motivations that we've all felt before...going retro can be quite fun.

However, I think any of us would agree that short of a truly gifted and exceptional player, using a T3000 will endanger the kid's performance and results, and the team's results. While I don't think I'd have a kid run laps if he brought a T3000 or Head aluminum or whatever to a practice one day, I definitely would tell him he needed to return to his usual racquet from then on, and use the T3000 on his own time. That's all the coach did, he set no requirement to purchase a specific racquet.

You know, all this talk about coaching makes me all misty-eyed about my coaching days...I coached my kids through years of soccer and little league, and do miss the fun of those days. Little buggers are so cute when they hit the ball of the tee and rad madly towards third base... ;)

drakulie
04-17-2007, 08:44 AM
You know, all this talk about coaching makes me all misty-eyed about my coaching days...I coached my kids through years of soccer and little league, and do miss the fun of those days. Little buggers are so cute when they hit the ball of the tee and rad madly towards third base... ;)

red, great post. This last comment had me laughing quite a bit. LOL

Also, if someone whom I know busts out with a T3000 to play me>> yes, I would not take them too seriously. However, I've been in too many situations where I misjudge a person by their equipment>>> so I learned (thru lifes lessons) not to "let your guard down".

In fact, when I was still playing with the PS85 (up until 2 months ago),,, I also experienced situations where my opponents (playing with Pure Drives, etc,) made comments towards me. They found out the hard way, I could hit as hard if not harder than them with that "dinosaur".

drakulie
04-17-2007, 08:53 AM
Yup. It is. The op is silly for wanting to play with T3000, I agree. But here's the deal: that coach is why high school tennis is so pathetic. It's why truly good players don't play high school tennis. The coaches are abhorrent. My friend and I used to get lessons with one of the best coaches in Houston (if not the best) but we would need to skip after school practice one day a week for private lessons. Our coach wouldn't have it, even though he knew nothing about tennis (he plays, but he's a coach because his dad was a football player for rice years ago and he has football coach mentality - which doesn't work for *most* tennis players). These coaches should be slapped around a little. If you want to know how to effectively coach teenagers, here's a tip: Be fun. If the team loses, be encouraging, don't be a jerk. If the team wins, don't tell them that if they play like that against the next team they'll lose. Congratulate victory and encourage hard work after defeat. Honestly, coaches don't do this anymore. And they need to. If high school tennis was still fun, good players would play.

I say all this because as I've mentioned in this thread before (I'm repeating because I doubt many of you have read the entire thread) the top two players at my high school would not play for our school because the coach made it no fun. If you have a great player who is getting lessons with one of the best coaches and he needs to miss one practice a week, then let him do that. High school tennis is a different breed of team sport. Basketball teams need to practice together. Doubles teams even need to practice together. But a team of players playing singles don't need to practice together every day of the week. They all need to practice, but if they're going to lessons outside of the team practice that are much better for their game than the ones that (mostly pitiful, not all) high school coaches offer, then high school coaches should allow that. If they were truly great tennis coaches, they should probably teach tennis in the day rather than school.

Anyone seeing my point?

To add to this post, I met a high school coach this Sunday. He had his boys and girls team out there practcicing for an upcoming meet with another high school. I was pretty amazed by two boys in particular. When I asked who is # 1 was out of the two, he said his number 1, AND 2 were not present.

He then explained he allowed them to practice with their individual instructors, as long it did not disrupt the team concept, and they made time to practice with the team.

Everybody wins in this situation.

kingdaddy41788
04-17-2007, 08:54 AM
True. So very true.

SlapShot
04-17-2007, 09:50 AM
To add to this post, I met a high school coach this Sunday. He had his boys and girls team out there practcicing for an upcoming meet with another high school. I was pretty amazed by two boys in particular. When I asked who is # 1 was out of the two, he said his number 1, AND 2 were not present.

He then explained he allowed them to practice with their individual instructors, as long it did not disrupt the team concept, and they made time to practice with the team.

Everybody wins in this situation.

I think that that is a great situation, and beneficial to the entire team. There are times that a HS coach cannot correct the little things in a player's stroke (my HS coach was a football coach who liked tennis, but was not a very solid tennis player), and if the players themselves are taking the initiative to practice with the team ALONG with taking private lessons, everyone gets the benefits.

As for someone playing with a T3000 and being made to stop, unless they are going to use it in a match, they should not be practicing with it. I helped coach girls tennis when I was in high school, and the rule with practicing "junk strokes" or with alternate racquets was that you do it on your own time, not on the team's time. This went for trying to get the ball to spin sideways, trying to hit the ball as hard as you could into the fence, etc. If it's not helping the team, it's hurting the team. Unless you are playing tournaments as a singles player, or playing on the ATP/WTA, there is always a team to think about.

Serve em Up
04-17-2007, 10:18 AM
Gentlemen,

Why all the animosity towards the T3000. That raquet is an icon of the 70's. I didn't play the T3000 but I did play the T4000. Jimmy Connors did pretty well with the T2000.

I wonder if all of the folks berating the T3000 ever played on one for any length of time. I wouldn;t call it a novety or a badminton stick.

I played the T4000 for one year in high school. I was 3rd singles. I later switched to Wison Advantage that had much better control. I attributed the control issue to me more than the raquet. For a player that knows how to hit lots of topspin, you can really bomb it with a Tx000.

The folks I played and beat were using Kramers, Borg's, Prince aluminums, Donnay Wood of the day.

Wish I had one still. I agree that todays frames are more forgiving and easier to play. Might have to visit ****

SlapShot
04-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Gentlemen,

Why all the animosity towards the T3000. That raquet is an icon of the 70's. I didn't play the T3000 but I did play the T4000. Jimmy Connors did pretty well with the T2000.

I wonder if all of the folks berating the T3000 ever played on one for any length of time. I wouldn;t call it a novety or a badminton stick.

I played the T4000 for one year in high school. I was 3rd singles. I later switched to Wison Advantage that had much better control. I attributed the control issue to me more than the raquet. For a player that knows how to hit lots of topspin, you can really bomb it with a Tx000.

The folks I played and beat were using Kramers, Borg's, Prince aluminums, Donnay Wood of the day.

Wish I had one still. I agree that todays frames are more forgiving and easier to play. Might have to visit ****

Was the OP planning to use it in a match? Probably not.

It has nothing to do with animosity and everything to do with practicing how you play. If someone wants to hit with the T3000, they can feel free to do so, but not on the team's time.

We don't have the whole story from the OP, and making a conclusion without knowing whether he was warned before being made to run laps is hasty at best.

caesar66
04-17-2007, 10:28 AM
Viper, what did you end up doing?

chiru
04-17-2007, 10:29 AM
aotic;1383626']its not being obnoxious... he thought he was doing well so don't make fun of him for that! recall he was "blasting" backhands with it so wats wrong with using it even though the racquet is bad?

Well maybe obnoxious isn't what i was looking for. But I think most players would agree that the T-3000 is probably not the right stick for anybody anywhere in the world. Which is why nobody in competitive tennis uses it. I've used the t-2000 (heavy as hell btw) to hit and I got much more control from the 85, so if you're looking for the player's feel i think the 85 is even more control oriented than the t-2000 when you hit the sweet spot but you dont sacrifice as much power. I honestly dont think the OP really felt that the t3000 was his best racket and thats what he wanted to use for matches. If he did, I think he needs to playtest a few rackets.
But overall i was voicing support for OP. I think the coach dismissed it the wrong way. If one of my players wanted to use the t3000 in a match, id firmly believe that he was being a little bit ridiculous because i dont honestly see anyone playing with that racket for the express reason that there are better rackets for every style of play out there, IMO. but i'd teach him that the hard way, by making him play (and probably lose) matches against his teammates. If he wins, all I can say is, he sure showed me. and chalk it up to another one of those things you can't explain in life

Mr. Blond
04-17-2007, 11:16 AM
I can not speak for the rest of the country, but I know in my area, we encourage our high school tennis team members to take lessons and improve their game. I know my coaching experience is limited, and I am honest with them up front. I tell them that I can give them some fundamentals and build a love for the sport with them, but as they advance and grow beyond what I feel I can do, I encourage them to get coaching. From reading some of the posts in this thread, it sounds like alot of coaches don't allow this, although I can not understand why.

Maybe I view the team differently than most, but any improvement a player can bring is more than welcomed. I hope in the end, that is what people understand the most from this thread........coaches are not all pompous asses with chips on their shoulders about their tennis teams. For the most part, high school tennis coaches are trying to build the sport, and attempting to bring kids to a life long love of tennis.

70sSanO
04-17-2007, 12:02 PM
First off, I have hit with a T-2000, not the eqully bad T-3000, and it is truly one of the worst racquets even made.

Now since I have twin high school senior boys... They are really great kids, but they are seldom wrong, in their mind, and it is always someone else's fault. Part of the teenage years.

So, get with reality. The coach will be wrong no matter how right he is. Webster has not invented the words that can change the way a teenager percivesd the situation. They all sound like blah, blah, blah. And authority for authority sake doesn't go a long way, even in my day.

Best scenario, tell him to put the racquet away. If he resists, then tell him to put it away for now, but keep it handy. Set up a match outiside of practice. It would be great to get a really good JV player, or at least a player a grade or two younger. But any peer will do. And it will be the high school kid's opportunity to show the world he is right in using the racquet.

Have him get the crap spanked out of him with the T-3000. A good embarassing situation is far more benficial than a lecture on life and amzingly always seems to be understood at any age. It can also be a good learning experience for others who are watching.

Then ask him how he thinks his chances are of making the team.

Worst scenario, he puts the racquet away, runs the laps, hates the coach, hits with the racquet outside of practice, screws up his stroke, loses matches with his game racquet, blames it on his coach's decision, graduates, gets married, has kids, and turns into a Little League Dad who yells and blames the ump and manager for his kids performance, or lack there of.

John

PS... If happens to win, don't worry, just keep raising the competition even college players. If he beats everyone with that POS... go to **** and hopefully find a few more!

Kaptain Karl
04-17-2007, 01:24 PM
Just suppose the OP's Coach had a different version of the story. Maybe something like this...?

Okay, so one of my friends found a T3000 at a garage sale, and being the vintage racket junkie that I am, I had to try it out. So I bring it to school and once tennis practice comes around I start to hit with it.There's this one kid on my team who could be such a great Leader ... if he'd just focus his energy on the goals of the Team. My problem with him is, he is more of a goof-off and he loves to disrupt our practices.

It has great feel am I litterally blasting back backhands where ever I want.Just last week, for instance, he was on my practice court with a T-3000. He was spraying balls into the fence ... the adjoining court ... onto the Soccer Field.... The other boys on the Team were wanting to have a turn with the novel frame. They were lined-up on this goof-off's court instead of playing their challenge matches and working on their assigned Drills.

So once the coach comes and sees me playing with the racket ...Needing to get the focus back on Practice, I told the kid to put up the T-3000 and get busy with the Drills.

... he gets mad at me ...The Goof-off decides to argue with me, telling me it's his "new" racket "and-besides-I-have-a-right-to-play-with-the-racket-of-my-choice." He starts hitting wild serves and exclaiming and cheering about how he can "really blast serves with this great frame." (Apparently, competence wasn't material. He cared only for the feeling of power as he sprayed serves everywhere.)

... and makes me do five laps for playing with a "badminton" racket.After he ignored me three times, I had to stop his open defiance and get the Practice back on-track. I made him run laps ... and the rest of the boys saw that I was serious. We (finally) restored some sense of order to the afternoon.

I really like that racket too :(I really like this kid. It's too bad he won't put out more effort to be a Team player....
_______________

kingdaddy - I appreciate your conversational tone. It's nice to "discuss" our points of view ... rather than slamming each other....

... I felt it would be unfair to punish my teammates (and I thought it good to set an example for my younger friends) so I continued to play for the team.Admirable!

I switched coaches to take lessons at a time that did not interfere with the team's practice, which I feel ended up being a good change for me anyway (it was with this new coach that I developed a one-handed backhand that put my old two-hander to shame).Even more admirable ... with an unexpected benefit for you. (You seem to have "reaped what you sowed.") Kudos.

He knows old-school tennis, and there's nothing wrong with that, other than that it doesn't really work today.One of my regular hitting partners *loves* to play NTRP Tourneys ... because the HS and College kids he keeps meeting don't know how to handle a player who attacks the net and uses more than just topspin. In the right strategic circumstances, it does indeed "work".

If one day a week, a player for the team is getting coaching from an outside expert, that should be encouraged if he is practicing with the team the other 3 days (no after school practice on Friday) - especially if the coach is so good that he has a schedule packed full and a waiting list 3 pages long.I'd say this is "situational". I can see both sides.

I don't know if he did it on purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me.This ... and a few other remarks make me think you just dislike your Coach. That's unfortunate. (But ... having "been there" myself, I encourage you to keep the Team's goals in the front of your mind during Team Practice and Matches. I promise it will pay-off.)

Looking at the "mostly pitiful" comment ... I meant that most of the drills my high school coach offered were, and I assume there are many out there that are just as bad (and worse). It's got nothing to do with attitude.Hmmm.

I'm confused. Do you coach a HS team, or teach tennis outside of it. This would help me to understand where you're coming from....I presently coach a HS Team. (About a hundred years ago) I was a Teaching Pro. My business is not "tennis related."

... a lot of HS coaches today ... are actually keeping their players from getting better with this kind of behavior.On my College Team, our Coach was really bad. "Negative Motivation" was his only methodology. *I* became the Team's unofficial "leader" by encouraging / drilling / strategizing and being either their "cheerleader" or their "shrieking tree." (Have you read any of the Shogun books by Clavell?) Maybe you can be this kind of team leader, too....

It's good for players to have private lessons and should be encouraged.Situational....

kingdaddy - We agree and we disagree. That's okay.
Thanks for the dialogue.

- KK

superstition
04-17-2007, 01:58 PM
I play badminton and it hasn't hurt my tennis strokes. In fact, it's helped my volleys because badminton is faster. Badminton strokes are completely different than tennis strokes, and not even that causes problems.

I don't see how hitting with any tennis racquet can ruin a person's strokes. If I were coaching someone, I'd have them practice with a variety of racquets, in order for them to learn to be adaptable. Not everyone can have a mother like Melanie Molitor who cuts out gut before every match. Watching Safina fall apart against Jankovic because she was too fragile mentally - not practiced in the art of being flexible/adaptable, and watching so many collegiate women who all play like they're from the same assembly line has made me advocate diversity in instruction. Players should learn to be able to do a lot of different things; they should be able to hit with a variety of racquets/strings, on multiple surfaces, and they should be able to significantly alter their playing style when adapting to an opponent. I've won sets where I was down 0-4 or worse routinely by completely changing my style of play. There's a guy I've played where the only thing I hit to him is slice because of his extreme western grip and light racquet. He can't cope with low bounces. I slice every serve, practically, as well. He's not the type of player who gives up points if you change the pace/shots suddenly, so slicing everything was the key. I've seen a lot of players, especially female collegiate players, who refuse to budge an inch regarding their playing style, and won't even bother to run down balls against a junkballer. That's just stupidity, acting like a mule. Topspin isn't the only thing in tennis. Winning matches is what counts when you compete, and if you have to moonball, slice, and dropshot your way to victory, do it. Safina should have hit Conchita Martinez style loopy topspin shots in the wind, instead of trying flat bashing. She also should have tried a different serve. One-dimensional players will crumble if their perfect conditions aren't met, and she's a perfect example. Learning how to play well with a racquet like the T-3000 is probably a good idea, even if it's not the main racquet one uses. You'll learn things about the game, things that will help you, like the ability to hit a tiny sweetspot, deal with racquet weight effectively, and produce your own power. With a granny stick, you'll learn a bit less, but being able to control the ball with one is also something worth practicing a bit.

kingdaddy41788
04-17-2007, 02:12 PM
Just suppose the OP's Coach had a different version of the story. Maybe something like this...?

There's this one kid on my team who could be such a great Leader ... if he'd just focus his energy on the goals of the Team. My problem with him is, he is more of a goof-off and he loves to disrupt our practices.

Just last week, for instance, he was on my practice court with a T-3000. He was spraying balls into the fence ... the adjoining court ... onto the Soccer Field.... The other boys on the Team were wanting to have a turn with the novel frame. They were lined-up on this goof-off's court instead of playing their challenge matches and working on their assigned Drills.

Needing to get the focus back on Practice, I told the kid to put up the T-3000 and get busy with the Drills.

The Goof-off decides to argue with me, telling me it's his "new" racket "and-besides-I-have-a-right-to-play-with-the-racket-of-my-choice." He starts hitting wild serves and exclaiming and cheering about how he can "really blast serves with this great frame." (Apparently, competence wasn't material. He cared only for the feeling of power as he sprayed serves everywhere.)

After he ignored me three times, I had to stop his open defiance and get the Practice back on-track. I made him run laps ... and the rest of the boys saw that I was serious. We (finally) restored some sense of order to the afternoon.

I really like this kid. It's too bad he won't put out more effort to be a Team player....
_______________

kingdaddy - I appreciate your conversational tone. It's nice to "discuss" our points of view ... rather than slamming each other....

Admirable!

Even more admirable ... with an unexpected benefit for you. (You seem to have "reaped what you sowed.") Kudos.

One of my regular hitting partners *loves* to play NTRP Tourneys ... because the HS and College kids he keeps meeting don't know how to handle a player who attacks the net and uses more than just topspin. In the right strategic circumstances, it does indeed "work".

I'd say this is "situational". I can see both sides.

This ... and a few other remarks make me think you just dislike your Coach. That's unfortunate. (But ... having "been there" myself, I encourage you to keep the Team's goals in the front of your mind during Team Practice and Matches. I promise it will pay-off.)

Hmmm.

I presently coach a HS Team. (About a hundred years ago) I was a Teaching Pro. My business is not "tennis related."

On my College Team, our Coach was really bad. "Negative Motivation" was his only methodology. *I* became the Team's unofficial "leader" by encouraging / drilling / strategizing and being either their "cheerleader" or their "shrieking tree." (Have you read any of the Shogun books by Clavell?) Maybe you can be this kind of team leader, too....

Situational....

kingdaddy - We agree and we disagree. That's okay.
Thanks for the dialogue.

- KK

I appreciate your comments KK. Fortunately, I've graduated from High School, and said coach is suffering the results of his actions. The "team" finished 2nd to last this year, because the top 4 guys and top 2 girls decided not to play for him anymore. Unfortunately though, he isn't the only one suffering the consequences of his actions - my young friends can no longer enjoy playing HS tennis. I'm glad to hear that you're coaching HS and I hope it's a pleasurable experience for you and your players. I think I can safely assume from your moderator status on these boards, and from your experience as a college player, that you know what you're talking about. If nothing else, I can draw the conclusion that you're a better coach than the one I had. Good luck with your team.

Redflea
04-17-2007, 03:22 PM
red, great post. This last comment had me laughing quite a bit. LOL

Also, if someone whom I know busts out with a T3000 to play me>> yes, I would not take them too seriously. However, I've been in too many situations where I misjudge a person by their equipment>>> so I learned (thru lifes lessons) not to "let your guard down".

In fact, when I was still playing with the PS85 (up until 2 months ago),,, I also experienced situations where my opponents (playing with Pure Drives, etc,) made comments towards me. They found out the hard way, I could hit as hard if not harder than them with that "dinosaur".

Thanks. And yes, I have been taught that lesson before...racquet, clothiing, even black "business wear" knee-high socks do not mean the guy can't beat the stuffing out of me...man, I still have nightmares about that guy w/the black socks... ;)

drakulie
04-17-2007, 04:20 PM
^^^ LOLO< black business socks! that's horrible. LOL

Well, imagine a guy in his late 50's, wearing blue jeans and a t-shirt, old converse, glasses, half bald, and a giligan hat owning everyone. He was using an old graphite racquet from the early 80's.

This actually happened in a league I play in. Everybody was laughing at this guy when they saw him get on the court. Nobody went near him. Then the director of the league announces the schedule for the night. The gilligan guy was scheduled to play the top player in the league>>> a 5.0 who at the time was in the top 5 in Florida for 5.0 ntrp players.

6-0,6-0 for Gilligan. The guy did not lose a set the entire season. The most games he lost in a set the entire season was 2. All of this with a patty cake serve. Yes, he would just poke the serve in to start the point. Turns out he was an ex pro who was in the top 50??? back in the early 70's.

definitely a humbling experience for everyone.

Viper
04-17-2007, 04:42 PM
Sorry I haven't replyed to anything, but I thought this post was interesting.


Some of you are attributing a great deal of accuracy to the OP's report. Most kids who post whines like his ... exaggerate ... to make themselves look better and the "mean ol' Coach" look worse.

(Of course, this post is from a Mean Ol' Coach. You'll probably still choose to side with the OP's version of the story....)

- KK

I never wanted to make my coach seem like a bad guy, because he's a good coach. I'm not whining about not playing with the frame either, because I would never ever play a match with it, I just wanted to try some drop and hit drills with it. I side with what you say, but honestly I just wanted to hit for like 10 minutes with it.

slice bh compliment
04-17-2007, 04:56 PM
[quote]
Originally Posted by Kaptain Karl http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=1382923#post1382923)
Some of you are attributing a great deal of accuracy to the OP's report. Most kids who post whines like his ... exaggerate ... to make themselves look better and the "mean ol' Coach" look worse.

(Of course, this post is from a Mean Ol' Coach. You'll probably still choose to side with the OP's version of the story....)

- KK
[quote]

He had me at Grr.
;) Noone ever lies or stretches the truth .... on the INTERNET!!

Redflea
04-17-2007, 05:11 PM
Sorry I haven't replyed to anything, but I thought this post was interesting.

I never wanted to make my coach seem like a bad guy, because he's a good coach. I'm not whining about not playing with the frame either, because I would never ever play a match with it, I just wanted to try some drop and hit drills with it. I side with what you say, but honestly I just wanted to hit for like 10 minutes with it.

No worries, we are happy to duel on in your absence. ;)

Like I said before, I don't think I would have sent one of my kids off to run laps, but each coach has his/her own overall approach, and it's hard to quibble about one aspect w/out knowing the whole situation.

I'm glad you're interested in old frames...I think anything that brings a sense of history and the evolution of the game to you young bucks has to be a good thing. Sounds like your coach was just saying that he doesn't want you taking your history lessons during practice. ;)