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View Full Version : Understanding just how unbelievable Navratilova really was at her peak in 83-84!


federerfanatic
04-14-2007, 06:47 PM
It seems there is some complete ignorance by some people to just how almost completely untouchable, scary to oppose, and just plain incredible Navratilova was at her absolute peak in 1983-1984. Particularly by a certain Graf loving troll who seems to think she was merely a good player romping through a clown era, who Graf would have mysteriously been able to just brush aside, when Graf could hardly ever beat her in straight sets past age 30. I thought I would like to share this excerpt from a book on Martina and Chris that really entails just how incredible Martina truly was at her absolute peak:


Navratilova and Evert were ranked number one and two in the world and meeti only on Sundays now, for title. The gap between them and the rest of the tour had become so pronounced, even Pam Shriver, a perennial top five player, spoke with poignant resignation about the "hopeless feeling of chasing two opponents you never, ever draw closer to."

"That's what Chris and Martini do to the rest of us, those of us who never fulfill expectation and who begin to doubt that we ever will," Shriver said. "I
try to say that the other players aren't that far behind, when, in fact-at least
at the majors-we're light-years behind. No one likes to admit she doesnt have a serious chance."

Evert was about to find out what that despair felt like.

By the summer of 1983 the results between her and Navratilova had taken on a numbing sameness. Only the datelines changed from week to week:

Dallas, March 7-Martina Navratilova defeated archrival Chris Evert on Sunday in the final of the $150, 000 Virgina Slams of Dallas, 6-4, 6-0. "I don't think she's ever played better," Evert said.

New York, March 23-At the Virgina Slims Championships in New York City last week, Martina Navratilova demonstrated a talent as well rounded as splendid.
She bludgeoned opponents with her serve, outdueled them from the baseline
and teased them with drop shots and lobs. Even Chris Evert could do little to slow down Navratilova....The look in Evert's eyes(before the match)seemed to say, "If I dont make it back, tell Mom and Dad I love them." Little more than an hour later, Navratilova had swept 10 straight games en route to a 6-2, 6-0 win.

The loss was Evert's most lopsided in 950 singles matches on tour, spanning 13 years. Since the start of 1982, Navratilova had won 114 of 117 matches. "She really cleaned my clock today" said Evert. "That was one of her better matches, I hope."

Los Angeles, August 7-Martina Navratilova captured her seventh win in her last eight matches against Chris Evert yesterday with a 6-1, 6-3 rout in the finals of the Virginia Slims of Los Angeles. "We've played three times in a year," Evert said, "and I haven't won a set."

Navratilova, true to her boast, had ascended to the point where she lost only if she beat herself. She seemed invincible.

CEvertFan
04-14-2007, 06:54 PM
Very true. Martina at that time was untouchable even by Evert. Martina did force Evert to get better though, making her finally go to the gym and change from wood to graphite.

federerfanatic
04-14-2007, 07:02 PM
Very true. Martina at that time was untouchable even by Evert. Martina did force Evert to get better though, making her finally go to the gym and change from wood to graphite.

You are right. Evert really showed the determination, resiliency, and competitive spirit of a champion around this point, taking her own game and fitness to a completely new level to compete with what seemed like the inhuman heights attained by Navratilova. She even had to transform her style of play to some degree. It would have been easy to quit, and many were even telling her to at the time, but instead she did everything she could to challenge Navratilova again.

CEvertFan
04-14-2007, 07:12 PM
You are right. Evert really showed the determination, resiliency, and competitive spirit of a champion around this point, taking her own game and fitness to a completely new level to compete with what seemed like the inhuman heights attained by Navratilova. She even had to transform her style of play to some degree. It would have been easy to quit, and many were even telling her to at the time, but instead she did everything she could to challenge Navratilova again.

I couldn't have said it better myself. ;) Evert was a class act all the way. I miss watching her and Martina play.

federerfanatic
04-14-2007, 07:27 PM
I couldn't have said it better myself. ;) Evert was a class act all the way. I miss watching her and Martina play.

You definitely are not the only ones who miss them. Two players like that pushing each other to greater heights for so many years, mantaining a knawing drive and hunger to win vs the other each time they step onto a court, but still doing it with class and style, does not come around very often.

backhander
04-14-2007, 08:36 PM
You definitely are not the only ones who miss them. Two players like that pushing each other to greater heights for so many years, mantaining a knawing drive and hunger to win vs the other each time they step onto a court, but still doing it with class and style, does not come around very often.

I wasn't watching tennis at around this time, didn't really get into tennis till around 89, but how did Evert do after changing her game and fitness to compete against Navratilova. One thing about Navratilova is that I didn't really like her in the early 90's, but now I seem to be rooting for her when i do get a chance to see her play. Her netplay is awesome.

CEvertFan
04-14-2007, 08:49 PM
I wasn't watching tennis at around this time, didn't really get into tennis till around 89, but how did Evert do after changing her game and fitness to compete against Navratilova. One thing about Navratilova is that I didn't really like her in the early 90's, but now I seem to be rooting for her when i do get a chance to see her play. Her netplay is awesome.


Here's a quote from chrisevert.net a great Evert site:

Martina completely dominated women’s tennis from 1983 through 1984, handing Chris a daunting 2-year draught in their head-to-head meetings, with Martina winning 13 consecutive matches. Evert had beaten Martina in 15 of 17 matches between the Spring of 1975 and the end of 77, but losing in that manner was completely alien to Chris. However, 13 did prove to be the unluckiest of numbers, even for one of Navratilova’s stature, as Chris was to break the chain of losses in their next meeting.

After a near-win in the 84 US Open final against Navratilova 4-6 6-4 6-4, the 13th consecutive loss, the two rivals played in an exhibition match in the US, and Chris charged net at every opportunity, beating Martina convincingly, 6-2 6-4. As the 1984 season closed, with the Australian Open, Evert won her 1000th career match, the first player ever to do so, and then won the title, furthering her string of consecutive years winning a Grand Slam event to 11; a string that would reach a record 13. (Perhaps 13 is a number that always plays the role of streak-ender!)

In any case, it all represented a change in fortune for Evert. She next met Martina again in January 1985 at a tournament in Key Biscayne, and this time it was not an exhibition, but for the record: she won again in a 6-2 6-4 repeat of her earlier victory. Then, four months later, in June, Chris took her second Grand Slam in a row, again beating Martina in one of the most dramatic and well-played matches in women’s tennis history, winning the French Open 6-3 6-7 7-5.
This victory tied Chris for the all-time record for victories at the French (She broke the record the following year, beating Martina again 2-6 6-3 6-3 in another long, dramatic final for her 7th French crown), but in addition, Chris regained the world’s number one ranking back from Navratilova.

“Many people missed what that match meant. It wasn’t just that Chris had beaten Martina again or had won another Grand Slam,” tennis analyst and coach Andy Brandi was to say at the time, “It was so much more than that: The Queen was back on the Throne. There wasn’t a dry eye in the place.”

Indeed, that was the romance of it, and Chris would hold the ranking until the final month of the year. It would be her final stay at the top, at age 31. But the Throne was forever hers. Adding honor to achievement in 1985, the Women’s Sports Foundation named Evert the Greatest Woman Athlete of the Last 25 Years.

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 09:18 PM
It seems there is some complete ignorance by some people to just how almost completely untouchable, scary to oppose, and just plain incredible Navratilova was at her absolute peak in 1983-1984. ....

The opposition in those years was an absolute joke.
Let's have a look at whom Navratilova beat in the slams in 1983/84 (she won 6 of 8 ).

FO 83: Lost in 3rd round against Horvath.
Wim 83: beat 3rd seed Jaeger in final.
USO 83: beat 5th seed Shriver and in the final Evert.
AO 83: beat 3rd seed Shriver and in the final 9th seed K. Jordan.
FO 84: beat 4th seed Mandlikova and in the final Evert.
Wim 84: beat 6th seed Jordan and Evert.
USO 84: beat 13th seed Turnbull (31) and Evert.
AO 84: lost to 9th seed Sukova.

Evert was a legit opponent but the rest were absolute clowns.
We don't even talk about Jordan, Jaeger and Turnbull.
Leaves us with Mandlikova and Shriver who were #3 and #4 in the world at that time.

Shriver and Mandlikova were still young (mid-20ies) at the end of the 80ies when they ran into Steffi Graf.

At age 16 Graf played Hana for the first time (in 1986 at Hilton Head) and beat her easily 6-2 6-4. Some weeks later she lost to her in 3 sets at FO 86 while having a severe cold. After that Steffi won against Hana 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1987), 6-4 6-1 (FedCup 1987), 6-2 6-2 (Zurich 1987), 6-2 6-2 (AO 1988 ), 7-6 6-3 (San Antonio 1989), 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1989) and 6-0 6-1 (Mahwah 1989).
So in 1987-89 peak Graf played a 25-27-year-old Hana Mandlikova 7 times.
She won all 7 matches and all 14 sets. The average result was 6-3 6-2.

Steffi had just turned 16 when she played her first match against Shriver at Wimbledon 1985, losing in a tight 3-setter. 2 months later she beat Pam at USO but lost again in Filderstadt. At the beginning of 1986 - still being 16 - she beat Shriver in a 3-setter at the Masters. So they were even (2-2 H2H) but 16-year-old Steffi had overtaken 23-year-old Pam in the rankings in the meanwhile.
Peaking Steffi played Shriver 3 times in slams in 1987/88 with an average result of 6-2 6-2.

So much about Hana and Pam, Navratilova/Evert's main opponents of the mid-80ies ...


Condi

Condoleezza
04-14-2007, 09:21 PM
Very true. Martina at that time was untouchable even by Evert. Martina did force Evert to get better though, making her finally go to the gym and change from wood to graphite.

So Evert went to the gym after 1983/84, OK (unbelievable that a top player could survive back then without doing that!).
Nevertheless Evert lost to 16-year-old Graf at the beginning of 1986 - and the next 7 matches as well, winning only 1 of 17 sets against the German superstar.

Condi

CEvertFan
04-14-2007, 10:40 PM
So Evert went to the gym after 1983/84, OK (unbelievable that a top player could survive back then without doing that!).
Nevertheless Evert lost to 16-year-old Graf at the beginning of 1986 - and the next 7 matches as well, winning only 1 of 17 sets against the German superstar.

Condi

1986 was clearly the beginning of the end for Evert who began to be unable to sustain her consistency which had always been one of her greatest strengths.

Here's some stats for her 1986 season, which includes two wins over Graf in straight sets.

1986

Tournament Wins: 6
Match Record: 59-7

* Virginia Slims of Florida (Key Biscayne, FL): 2R def. Petra Huber 6-2, 6-1; 3R def. Carling Bassett 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-1, 6-0; SF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-1, 6-0; F def. Steffi Graf 6-3, 6-1

* Lipton International Players Championships (Boca Raton, FL): 1R def. Susan Sloane 6-4, 6-4; 2R def. Marie-Christine Calleja 6-4, 6-0; 3R def. Catherine Suire 7-5, 6-1; 4R def. Kathy Jordan 7-5, 6-2; QF def. Terry Phelps 6-2, 6-0; SF def. Kathy Rinaldi 7-6, 6-1; F def. Steffi Graf 6-4, 6-2


* Virginia Slims of California (Oakland, CA): 2R def. Peanut Louie 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Wendy Turnbull 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Helena Sukova 7-5, 6-4; F def. Kathy Jordan 6-2, 6-4


Virginia Slims of Dallas (Dallas, TX): 2R def. Terry Phelps 6-2, 6-0; 3R def. Bettina Bunge 6-1, 6-4; QF def. Zina Garrison 6-4, 6-3; SF def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-4, 6-2; F lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-1


Virginia Slims Championships (New York, NY): 1R def. Barbara Potter 6-2, 6-4; QF def. Helena Sukova 1-6, 6-1, 6-1; SF lost to Hana Mandlikova 6-3, 7-5


* Chrysler-Plymouth Tournament of Champions (Marco Island, FL): 2R def. Maria Lindstrom 6-0, 6-0; QF def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Bonnie Gadusek 6-1, 6-1; F def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-2, 6-4


Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): 2R def. Sylvia Hanika 7-6, 6-1; 3R def. Helen Kelesi 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Helena Sukova 6-3, 6-4; SF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-2, 6-1; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-4, 7-5


* Virginia Slims of Houston (Houston, TX): 1R def. Anne Smith 6-0, 6-2; 2R def. Ann Henricksson 6-2, 6-1; QF def. Kate Gompert 6-4, 6-1; SF def. Laura Arraya Gildemeister 6-7, 6-0, 6-0; F def. Kathy Rinaldi 6-4, 2-6, 6-4


* French Open Championships (Paris, France): 1R def. Cecile Calmette 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Nathalie Herreman 6-2, 6-1; 3R def. Anne Smith 6-3, 6-1; 4R def. Gabriela Sabatini 1-6, 6-3, 6-3; QF def. Carling Bassett 5-7. 6-2, 6-1; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 6-1, 6-1; F def. Martina Navratilova 2-6, 6-3, 6-3


All-England Championships (Wimbledon, England): 1R def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-4, 6-1; 2R def. Pam Casale 6-0, 5-7, 6-1; 3R def. Kathleen Horvath 6-4, 6-1; 4R def. Kathy Jordan 7-5, 6-2; QF def. Helena Sukova 7-6, 4-6, 6-4; SF lost to Hana Mandlikova 7-6, 7-5


Federation Cup (Prague, Czechoslovakia): 2R def. Maria Llorca, Spain 6-1, 6-0; QF lost to Sandra Cecchini, Italy 3-6, 6-4, 6-3; SF def. Bettina Bunge, West Germany 6-3, 6-4; F def. Helena Sukova 7-5, 7-6. (Evert was not used in the United Statesí first round tie against China).


Virginia Slims of Los Angeles (Manhattan Beach, CA): 2R def. Elise Burgin 6-4, 6-2; 3R def. Bettina Bunge 7-6, 6-4; QF def. Manuela Maleeva 3-6, 6-0, 6-0; SF def. Pam Shriver 6-4, 6-4; F lost to Martina Navratilova 7-6, 6-3


United States Open Championships (Flushing, Queens, NY): 1R def. Barbara Gerken 6-2, 6-1; 2R Regina Marsikova 6-0, 6-0; 3R def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-4, 6-2; 4R def. Catarina Lindqvist 6-2, 2-6, 6-2; QF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-2, 6-2; SF lost to Helena Sukova 6-2, 6-4


Sat out rest of season with chondromalacia patella in her left knee, which had troubled her throughout the spring and summer.


Season Highlights
--Won record 7th French Open title
--Opened the year with three straight tournament victories.

When would Evert have lost to a player like Cecchini in her prime? Never.
A decent year but definitely starting her decline.

SoBad
04-14-2007, 10:51 PM
Great thread, would be interesting to see a table of match winning percentage from Graf by year.

CEvertFan
04-15-2007, 12:30 PM
Great thread, would be interesting to see a table of match winning percentage from Graf by year.



I am sure Condi can oblige.

Condoleezza
04-15-2007, 01:03 PM
1986 was clearly the beginning of the end for Evert who began to be unable to sustain her consistency which had always been one of her greatest strengths.

Here's some stats for her 1986 season, which includes two wins over Graf in straight sets.

1986

Tournament Wins: 6
Match Record: 59-7
...

59-7 - that is a 89.4 % winning percentage.

1979 - Winning Percentage: 86.6 %
1980 - Winning Percentage: 90.7 %
1981 - Winning Percentage: 91.8 %
1982 - Winning Percentage: 92.0 %
1983 - Winning Percentage: 86.2 %
1984 - Winning Percentage: 89.3 %
1985 - Winning Percentage: 90.8 %
1979-1985 - Winning Percentage: 89.6 %

So I don't see how Evert was worse in 1986 than in the seven years before that. Yet Graf (16) beat her in April 1986 in 2 sets on clay and never lost another match against Chrissie.

And please don't tell me that Evert of the mid-70ies was a better player than Evert of the 80ies .....


Condi

Condoleezza
04-15-2007, 01:10 PM
Great thread, would be interesting to see a table of match winning percentage from Graf by year.

Graf 1986-96


1986. (91% 64-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
1987. (97% 75-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
1988. (96% 72-3) Steffi Graf (GER)
1989. (98% 86-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
1990. (94% 72-5) Steffi Graf (GER)
1991. (89% 65-8 ) Steffi Graf (GER)
1992. (91% 71-7) Steffi Graf (GER)
1993. (93% 76-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
1994. (91% 58-6) Steffi Graf (GER)
1995. (96% 47-2) Steffi Graf (GER)
1996. (93% 54-4) Steffi Graf (GER)


Condi

CEvertFan
04-15-2007, 01:36 PM
59-7 - that is a 89.4 % winning percentage.

1979 - Winning Percentage: 86.6 %
1980 - Winning Percentage: 90.7 %
1981 - Winning Percentage: 91.8 %
1982 - Winning Percentage: 92.0 %
1983 - Winning Percentage: 86.2 %
1984 - Winning Percentage: 89.3 %
1985 - Winning Percentage: 90.8 %
1979-1985 - Winning Percentage: 89.6 %

So I don't see how Evert was worse in 1986 than in the seven years before that. Yet Graf (16) beat her in April 1986 in 2 sets on clay and never lost another match against Chrissie.

And please don't tell me that Evert of the mid-70ies was a better player than Evert of the 80ies .....


Condi

True but for 1986 Evert's record against Graf was 2-1 in Evert's favor. I am talking about after that.

Let's look at Evert's 1987 shall we?


1987

Tournament Wins: 5
Match Record: 72-13

Virginia Slims of Florida (Boca Raton, FL): 2R def. Elna Reinach 6-4, 6-2; 3R lost to Kate Gompert 3-6, 6-4, 6-2

Lipton International Players Championships (Key Biscayne, FL): 1R def. Jennifer Mundel 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Akiko Kijimuta 6-1, 6-2; 3R def. Vicki Nelson-Dunbar 6-0, 6-0; 4R def. Stephanie Rehe 6-3, 6-2; QF def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-2, 7-5; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 7-5, 6-0; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-1, 6-2

* Virginia Slims of Dallas (Dallas, TX): 1R def. Katerina Maleeva 2-6, 6-3, 6-1; 2R def, Carling Bassett 6-0, 6-1; QF def. Stephanie Rehe 6-1, 6-0; SF def. Zina Garrison 3-6, 6-1, 6-0; F def. Pam Shriver 6-1, 6-3


Family Circle Magazine Cup (Hilton Head, SC): 2R def. Petra Huber 7-5, 6-2; 3R def. Debbie Spence 6-3, 6-0; QF def. Bettina Bunge 6-3, 6-2; SF lost to Manuela Maleeva 6-1, 2-6, 7-6

* Virginia Slims of Houston (Houston, TX): 1R def. Nathalie Herreman 6-1, 6-1; 2R def. Mariana Perez-Roldan 6-2, 6-1; QF def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-3; SF def. Hana Mandlikova 6-3, 7-5; F def. Martina Navratilova 3-6, 6-1, 7-6


* Eckerd-Florida Federal Open (Tampa, FL): 1R def. Gabriela Dinu 6-2, 6-1; 2R def. Camille Benjamin 6-3, 6-1; QF def. Laura Arraya Gildemeister 6-2, 6-1; SF def. Beverley Bowes 6-0, 6-0; F def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-2


* European Open (Geneva, Switzerland): 2R def. Emmanuelle Derly 6-1, 6-4; 3R def. Kate Gompert 6-3, 6-1; QF def. Mary Joe Fernandez 7-6, 6-1; SF def. Lori McNeil 6-0, 6-2; F def. Manuela Maleeva 6-3, 4-6, 6-2


French Open Championships (Paris, France): 1R def. Eva Pfaff 6-1, 6-3; 2R def. Isabelle Demongeot 6-3, 7-5; 3R def. Eva Krapl 6-2, 6-0; 4R def. Katerina Maleeva 6-3, 6-1; QF Raffaella Reggi 6-2, 6-2; SF lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-2


Pilkington Glass Ladies Championships (Eastbourne, England): 1R def. Sharon Walsh-Pete 6-2, 6-1; 2R def. Lisa Bonder 6-1, 6-1; 3R def. Wendy White 6-3, 6-4; QF def. Larissa Savchenko 6-3, 6-1; SF lost to Helena Sukova 4-6, 6-4, 8-6

All-England Championships (Wimbledon, England): 1R def. Sara Gomer 6-1, 6-0; 2R def. Laura Golarsa 7-5, 6-0; 3R def. Kumiko Okamoto 7-5, 6-0; 4R def. Rosalyn Fairbank 6-2, 2-6, 7-5; QF def. Claudia Kohde-Kilsch 6-1, 6-3; SF lost to Martina Navratilova 6-2, 5-7, 6-4


Federation Cup (Vancouver, British Columbia): 1R def. Etsuko Inoue, Japan 6-2, 6-4; 2R def. Nathalie Tauziat, France 6-1, 6-0; QF def. Jo Durie, Great Britain 6-3, 6-1; SF def. Manuela Maleeva 6-2, 2-6, 6-4; F lost to Steffi Graf, West Germany 6-2, 6-1

Virginia Slims of Los Angeles (Manhattan Beach, CA): 2R def. Robin White 6-0, 7-5; 3R def. Jana Novotna 7-6, 6-3; QF def. Lori McNeil 6-1, 7-5; SF def. Martina Navratilova 6-2, 6-1; F lost to Steffi Graf 6-3, 6-4


Canadian Open Players Championship (Toronto, Ontario): 2R def. Sara Gomer 6-3, 6-2; 3R def. Nathalie Tauziat 6-2, 6-2; QF def. Helen Kelesi 6-2, 6-0; SF lost to Pam Shriver 6-4, 6-1


United States Open Championships (Flushing, Queens, NY): 1R def. Susan Sloane 6-1, 6-0; 2R def. Niege Dias 6-0, 6-1; 3R def. Natalia Zvereva 6-0, 6-2; 4R def. Manuela Maleeva 7-5, 6-4; QF lost to Lori McNeil 3-6, 6-2, 6-4
* Virginia Slims of New Orleans (New Orleans, LA): 1R def. Anne Minter 6-0, 6-1; 2R def. Barbara Gerken 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Anne Smith 6-2, 6-0; SF def. Wendy Turnbull 3-2 ret.; F def. Lori McNeil 6-3, 6-4


Porsche Grand Prix (Filderstadt, West Germany): 1R def. Regina Marsikova 6-2, 7-5; 2R def. Raffaella Reggi 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Mary Joe Fernandez 6-2, 5-7, 6-4; SF def. Pam Shriver 7-5, 6-3; F lost to Martina Navratilova 7-5, 6-1


Virginia Slims of New England (Worcester, MA): 1R def. Michelle Torres 6-3, 6-3; 2R def. Andrea Holikova 6-4, 6-1; QF def. Barbara Potter 1-6, 6-1, 6-3; SF def. Gabriela Sabatini 6-4, 7-6; F lost to Pam Shriver 6-4, 4-6, 6-0
Virginia Slims Championships (New York, NY): 1R lost to Sylvia Hanika 6-4, 6-4


All the matches I highlighted clearly show that by this point Evert was definitely on the decline and that Graf was clearly coming into her prime.

federerfanatic
04-15-2007, 01:51 PM
Well to be fair to Manuela Maleeva, she did play Evert 5 times on clay in 1984 when she was definitely in her prime, and beat her in straight sets in the Italian Open final, and while losing the other 4 meetings took Evert to 3 sets in 3 of those 4. So it is not as if a clay court win vs Evert would have been unfathomable to ever happen in Evert's prime. I am not saying I disagree Evert was clearly past her prime in the year 1987 though.

CEvertFan
04-15-2007, 03:31 PM
Well to be fair to Manuela Maleeva, she did play Evert 5 times on clay in 1984 when she was definitely in her prime, and beat her in straight sets in the Italian Open final, and while losing the other 4 meetings took Evert to 3 sets in 3 of those 4. So it is not as if a clay court win vs Evert would have been unfathomable to ever happen in Evert's prime. I am not saying I disagree Evert was clearly past her prime in the year 1987 though.

Manuela was clearly the best of the Maleeva sisters to play by far so I can agree with your point.

federerfanatic
04-15-2007, 05:19 PM
Manuela was clearly the best of the Maleeva sisters to play by far so I can agree with your point.

Yeah all 3 of them were pretty good players but she clearly had the best and most consistent career of the 3.

Yours!05
04-15-2007, 07:42 PM
Great thread, would be interesting to see a table of match winning percentage from Graf by year.Great post. Carry on.:)

CEvertFan
04-16-2007, 11:33 AM
Great post. Carry on.:)


We plan to. :D

Lambsscroll
04-17-2007, 06:02 AM
Margaret Smith Court "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match" her.[1] Between 1960 and 1975, she won a record 62 Grand Slam titles – 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won 62 of the 85 Grand Slam finals (72.9%) in which she appeared, including 24-5 (82.8%) in singles finals. She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.

CEvertFan
04-17-2007, 10:34 AM
Margaret Smith Court "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match" her.[1] Between 1960 and 1975, she won a record 62 Grand Slam titles Ė 24 singles, 19 women's doubles, and 19 mixed doubles. In 1970, she became only the second woman player to win all four Grand Slam singles titles in the same calendar year. Court won 62 of the 85 Grand Slam finals (72.9%) in which she appeared, including 24-5 (82.8%) in singles finals. She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.


It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

Condoleezza
04-17-2007, 11:12 AM
It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

Yes, but she still is #2 behind Graf. Navi is only 3rd.

Condi

federerfanatic
04-17-2007, 12:16 PM
It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

Well if one considers it a reasonable estimate she would have won 5-7 titles there had it been a fully attended slam, that would still give her 18-20 slams, definitely among the all time greatest. I say 5-7 since she won 3 Wimbledons on grass, 5 U.S Opens on grass, generaly underachied at Wimbledon, and would get probably a bit of a boost playing in front of the home crowd. Then again she would still then probably hold no significant records in all likelihood. Her most grand slam singles gone, her most grand slam doubles combined gone, her most grand slam slam womens doubles her most combined grand slam singles/womens doubles/mixed doubles gone. Totally up in the air who would hold the most slam titles at the Australian Open itself, could be here, or could have been a number of people had it always been a fully attended slam.

Also players like Navratilova and Evert would likely have won more slams then their current 18 total, had it been a fully attended slam then, whether it was on grass or hard courts. Evert only won 2 titles there vs 3 Wimbledons(grass)and 6 U.S Opens(hard). Navratilova only won 3 titles there vs 9 Wimbledons(grass) and 4 U.S Opens(hard court, and some bad luck at the U.S Open too).

I dont rate her the GOAT either for the same reason. I would have her either #3 or #4 in the Open era, just ahead of her great rival Billie Jean King who I have #5 in the Open era.

federerfanatic
04-17-2007, 12:20 PM
She would have had more titles but she retired from tennis from 1966 to 1968, he he. She is still the best womens player to this day.

I agree had she not taken 3 different retirements, while in the prime of her career, she would almost certainly be the undisputed GOAT today. That was her choice though.

Condoleezza
04-17-2007, 12:22 PM
I agree had she not taken 3 different retirements, while in the prime of her career, she would almost certainly be the undisputed GOAT today. That was her choice though.

Same with Graf.
If she hadn't retired in 1999 but 5 years later she would have ended with about 26-28 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi

federerfanatic
04-17-2007, 01:50 PM
Same with Graf.
If she hadn't retired in 1999 but 5 years later she would have ended with about 26-28 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi


Court's 3 retirements each came when she was dominating the game. Graf's retirement came when she had won 1 out of the last 7 grand slams she played over almost 3 years, missing 4 others with injuries. How you think she was going to rebound at that point to win another 4-6 slams over the next 5 years, as she only got older, and the Williams sisters took the game to a higher level then it was during the Hingis reign, I can only imagine.

Condoleezza
04-17-2007, 02:04 PM
Court's 3 retirements each came when she was dominating the game. Graf's retirement came when she had won 1 out of the last 7 grand slams she played over almost 3 years, missing 4 others with injuries. How you think she was going to rebound at that point to win another 4-6 slams over the next 5 years, as she only got older, and the Williams sisters took the game to a higher level then it was during the Hingis reign, I can only imagine.


The Williams sisters took the game to higher level ....?:D :D :D
What about checking against which journeywomen the Willies lost in 2000-04 before posting BS like that in a public internet forum?

Graf had overtaken the Willies in the rankings in summer of 1999. She had made 2 of the last 2 slam finals. Of course she would have become older, she would have been 30-34 in 2000-04.

But Navratilova made 7 slam finals at age 30-34, won 3 of the them, lost 4 against a young Graf - against the greatest player of all time.

So Graf would have been able to make AT LEAST 7 slam finals in 2000-04, IMO.
And she would have won more than just 3 of them.
26-28 slams is a quite reasonable estimate.


Condi

AndrewD
04-17-2007, 05:33 PM
It's generally known and acknowledged by tennis historians and fans alike that during the 60's NO ELITE PLAYERS other than Margaret Court played the Aussie Open so her stat of having 11 titles there is a little inflated and although it gives her the GS record it doesn't make her the greatest player ever.

SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didnít play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

federerfanatic
04-17-2007, 05:37 PM
The Williams sisters took the game to higher level ....?:D :D :D
What about checking against which journeywomen the Willies lost in 2000-04 before posting BS like that in a public internet forum?

Venus was nearly unbeatable on fast courts in 2000 and 2001. Those journeywomen losses you are talking about are probably on slow courts, since she did not do that well on slow courts either year, but was dominant from Wimbledon-U.S Open both years. Venus in 1999 was usually losing to Hingis and Davenport, from 2000-2003 she was owning both.

Serena in 2002 and 2003 was on another planet from Serena in 1999. Serena in 1999 was still losing multiple times to a player like Sandrine Testud.

Graf had overtaken the Willies in the rankings in summer of 1999.

Hingis and Davenport were over the Williams too in 1999. Despite the rankings Venus had clearly overtaken Hingis and Davenport by the end of 2000, and Serena and Venus were the 2 dominant players in 2002-2003 playing in 5 out of 6 slam finals in slam events both were in. So they had much progression left after 1999.

But Navratilova made 7 slam finals at age 30-34, won 3 of the them, lost 4 against a young Graf - against the greatest player of all time.

Navratilova was not dealing with all the injuries Graf already was from ages 27-30.

So Graf would have been able to make AT LEAST 7 slam finals in 2000-04, IMO.

And she would have won more than just 3 of them.
26-28 slams is a quite reasonable estimate.

If she really felt that way why would she not have continued? I doubt she felt the same way you do, if she really felt all the records she was pretty close to were within grasp she would have continued. After all she has always been centred on winning and tennis, and admited to having a one-track vision at the time.

FiveO
04-17-2007, 07:35 PM
SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didnít play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

Excellent post. But you should realize that you're ruining a perfectly good yarn being spun by a particular poster with silly things called "facts". I wrote a similar post in another iteration of this "anti-everyone but Graf" rant being put forth by that poster. Ultimately, without any effect. Nice effort though.

Condoleezza
04-18-2007, 11:26 AM
SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didnít play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.


So only in 3 years more than 4 top-10 players!
IMO, the other 8 Court titles can't count as true slam titles. They are comparable to a Amelia Island or Moscow title of today.

Condi

Condoleezza
04-18-2007, 11:41 AM
Venus was nearly unbeatable on fast courts in 2000 and 2001. Those journeywomen losses you are talking about are probably on slow courts, since she did not do that well on slow courts either year, but was dominant from Wimbledon-U.S Open both years. Venus in 1999 was usually losing to Hingis and Davenport, from 2000-2003 she was owning both.

Serena in 2002 and 2003 was on another planet from Serena in 1999. Serena in 1999 was still losing multiple times to a player like Sandrine Testud. ....

Venus played 16 tournaments on fast courts in 00/01 and won 13.
But she lost to Davenport, Shaughnessy and Maggie Maleeva.
2 journeywomen (players who never made a slam final).

And she played 7 tournaments on slow courts, won only 1.
Losses to Coetzer, Dokic, Sanchez, Hingis, Henin, Schett.
3 journeywomen.

And that in her TWO BEST years EVER. 5 journeywomen.

Graf lost to 5 journeywomen in a ELEVEN-year time frame (1986-96).
Just to put things a little bit into perspective ...

Condi

Condoleezza
04-18-2007, 11:43 AM
Excellent post. But you should realize that you're ruining a perfectly good yarn being spun by a particular poster with silly things called "facts". I wrote a similar post in another iteration of this "anti-everyone but Graf" rant being put forth by that poster. Ultimately, without any effect. Nice effort though.


It was CEvertFan who brought up Court's hollow AO titles in the 60ies ...

Condi

CEvertFan
04-18-2007, 12:14 PM
SOME OF THE ELITE PLAYERS AT THE AUS OPEN DURING THE 1960'S (Elite as in winners of a major and/or top 10 players).

1960 Christine Truman #4 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane #8 in world)
1960 Maria Bueno #1 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)
1960 Jan Lehane #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith)

1961 Nil

1962 Darlene Hard #3 in world (beaten by Jan Lehane)
1962 Yola Ramirez (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world )
1962 Lesley Turner #7 in world
1962 Jan Lehane #11 in world

1963 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1963 Christine Truman #9 in world
1963 Jan Lehane # 7 in world

1964 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1964 Kerry Melville
1964 Jan Lehane #9 in world

1965 B. J Moffitt #4 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Anne Jones #6 in world (beaten by Durr #10 in world)
1965 Christine Truman #7 in world
1965 Lesley Turner #3 in world (beaten by Van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Maria Bueno #2 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #1 in world)
1965 Francois Durr #10 in world
1965 Carole Graebner #9 in world (beaten by van Zyl #6 in world)
1965 Rosie Darmon
1965 Annette van Zyl #6 in world (beaten by Bueno #2 in world)
1965 Lesley Hunt
1965 Lea Pericoli
1965 Kerry Melville

1966 Carole Graebner #9 (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Nancy Richey #5 in world (beaten by Margaret Smith #2 in world)
1966 Kerry Melville #10 in world
1966 Judy Tegart
1966 Lesley Turner

1967 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten by Kerry Melville #9 in world)
1967 Nancy Richey #4 in world won the Aus Open (Court didnít play)
1967 Francois Durr #3 in world
1967 Judy Tegart #10 in world
1967 Kerry Melville #9 in world
1967 Lesley Turner #5 in world
1967 Betty Stove

1968 Billie Jean King #1 in world won the Aus Open (beating Court #3 )
1968 Rosie Casals #10 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3 in world)
1968 Judy Tegart #7 in world (beaten by King #1 in world)
1968 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #8 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #3)

1969 Anne Jones #2 in world (beaten by Billie Jean King #3 in world)
1969 Francois Durr (lost in 2nd round)
1969 Billie Jean King #3 in world (beaten by Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Rosie Casals #6 in world (beaten Margaret Court #1 in world)
1969 Lesley Bowrey (Turner) #10 in world
1969 Judy Tegart #9 in world
1969 Kerry Melville #7 in world
1969 Evonne Goolagong

So, I think it would be fair to say that those tennis fans and historians who claimed that no elite players competed at the Australian Open during the 1960's were either LYING or IGNORANT ???


NB: 1961, 1966 and 1971 were the only years Margaret Court played the majors but only won the Australian Open (1960 she didn't play any others). So, obviously, she didn't just win the Aus Open by default and her wins there are above question.

You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.

CEvertFan
04-18-2007, 12:19 PM
Yes, but she still is #2 behind Graf. Navi is only 3rd.

Condi

Actually Evert and Navratilova tie for 4th place. Helen Wills Moody is 3rd with 19 GS titles.

federerfanatic
04-18-2007, 01:30 PM
Venus played 16 tournaments on fast courts in 00/01 and won 13.
But she lost to Davenport, Shaughnessy and Maggie Maleeva.
2 journeywomen (players who never made a slam final).

And she played 7 tournaments on slow courts, won only 1.
Losses to Coetzer, Dokic, Sanchez, Hingis, Henin, Schett.
3 journeywomen.

And that in her TWO BEST years EVER. 5 journeywomen.

Graf lost to 5 journeywomen in a ELEVEN-year time frame (1986-96).
Just to put things a little bit into perspective ...

Condi

I am not comparing Venus in her prime to Graf in her prime, which is meaningless to Graf's chances to win slam titles in 2000-2004. Graf in 2000-2004 would not have been in her "prime", she wasnt even in her prime by 1999, so that argument is is irrelevant.

I am comparing Venus of 2000-2003 to Venus of 1999, since you basicaly implied she was exactly the same which is nonsense. Venus went 2-2 vs Graf in 1999, Serena went 1-1 and both were 3 setters-the win and the loss. So the Williams and Graf were virtualy equal as far as a head to head matchup by 1999 already. Venus from 2000-2003 was much better then 1999, which was my point, and Serena in 2002-2003 was also much better then 1999. Graf would not have gotten better from 1999, the best she could have done at her age is stay the same, but more likely would have gotten worse. The Williams were already playing her equal in 1999, she would have had a very hard time beating them for slam titles in future years at that point.

I have an idea for you. Why dont you try putting a poll in the general tennis discussion forum. List options for how many slams Graf would have won had she played another 5 years after she retired, and give options from a low of 0, to a higher of 9 or more. See how it turns out.

You point out Venus won 13 of her 16 "fast surface" events in 2000-2001. That alone proves how much better she was then in 1999. Compare that to how many of her "fast surface" events she won in 1998-1999 combined. Also compare her head to heads with Hingis and Davenport in 98-99, to what they were in 2000-2001.

federerfanatic
04-18-2007, 01:56 PM
You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.

Yeah pretty much. It would be like if Navratilova racked up a bunch of Australian Opens with Evert, Mandilikova, Austin earlier on, Graf later on, all not playing most of the time. Yet all the other top players like Shriver, Hanika, Jaeger, Jordan, Durie playing each year. It is pretty much the same kind of thing.

Condoleezza
04-18-2007, 02:22 PM
I am not comparing Venus in her prime to Graf in her prime, which is meaningless to Graf's chances to win slam titles in 2000-2004. Graf in 2000-2004 would not have been in her "prime", she wasnt even in her prime by 1999, so that argument is is irrelevant.

I am comparing Venus of 2000-2003 to Venus of 1999, since you basicaly implied she was exactly the same which is nonsense. ....

In 2000-03 Graf was gone and Davenport & Hingis slumped or were injured most of the time. Take away all Graf/Davenport/Hingis matches and Venus has the same winning percentage in 1999 as in 2000/03.

Graf would not have dominated in 2000/04 but she would have won a slam here and there. 4-6 more slams in 5 years would have been easily possible.

Condi

federerfanatic
04-18-2007, 02:44 PM
In 2000-03 Graf was gone and Davenport & Hingis slumped or were injured most of the time. Take away all Graf/Davenport/Hingis matches and Venus has the same winning percentage in 1999 as in 2000/03.

Graf would not have dominated in 2000/04 but she would have won a slam here and there. 4-6 more slams in 5 years would have been easily possible.

Condi

Explain to me how it was Hingis and Davenport were slumped or injured most of the time in 2000 and 2001. I can see 2002 and 2003, but not 2000 and 2001.

Hingis and Davenport did not slump in 2000 and 2001. Davenport's only problem is she was losing to Venus so much, and she wasnt before, except for Venus she is doing just as well as 98-99. Hingis in 2000 was the same as 1998-1999 except losing to Venus much more often too. In 2001 Hingis also started to lose to a rejuvenated Capriati, and to a more mature Serena more often. Hingis in 1998 was already starting to see her dominance ended with the emergence of power tennis, Davenport starting to beat her often, the Williams beating her sometimes, Pierce occasionaly. Then each year from there it increased, Venus and Serena beating her more and more often, Capriati coming back and starting to beat her, etc....So it makes sense 2000 and 2001 was a bit more down from 1998 and 1999, the same way 1998 and 1999 was down from 1997 for her. It was a gradual decline of her former dominance once the power game emerged again.

Condoleezza
04-18-2007, 03:03 PM
Explain to me how it was Hingis and Davenport were slumped or injured most of the time in 2000 and 2001. I can see 2002 and 2003, but not 2000 and 2001.
...


Venus Williams win/loss records are:
1999: 55:12
2000: 41:4
2001: 46:5
2002: 41:6

Venus was handed her defeats in that year predominantly by Graf, Hingis
and Davenport. She was 1:2 vs. Graf, 2:3 vs. Davenport and 2:3 vs.
Hingis in 1999. Graf retired in 1999, Hingis and Davenport started
their long slump/decline that year. Hingis didn't win a Slam after FO
99, Davenport not after AO 00. Of course Venus suddenly had better
results against both.
If we exclude Venus matches vs. Graf, Hingis and Davenport from Venus'
win/loss record, we get
1999: 50:4 (92,6 %)
2000: 36:3 (92,3 %)
2001: 42:4 (91,3 %)
2002: 40:6 (87,0 %)

Actually, a steady decline - if it weren't for Graf, Davenport and Hingis.
Go figure ...

Condi

grizzly4life
04-18-2007, 06:45 PM
i don't understand the comment about evert raising her game. did she ever become semi-competitive with martina? my vague sense was it got worse, much much worse at times.

AndrewD
04-18-2007, 06:48 PM
You make a good point, but other than Bueno, Goolagong and King I don't really believe that any of those other players could seriously challenge Court whether they were in the top 10 at the time or not, and since King and Bueno didn't play the AO every year in the 60's and Goolagong came along in the very late 60's and early 70's I still stand by my statement that it was a cakewalk for Court to win the AO in the 60's because she clearly outclassed the field most years.

The point I was making was that your post was a complete and utter fabrication.Please explain to us why you did that as, otherwise, I see very little point in trying to inform you of anything. If you're willing to lie to justify your (false) claims, why would I believe you're capable of accepting genuine facts that don't suit you ?

suwanee4712
04-18-2007, 10:55 PM
The opposition in those years was an absolute joke.
Let's have a look at whom Navratilova beat in the slams in 1983/84 (she won 6 of 8 ).

FO 83: Lost in 3rd round against Horvath.
Wim 83: beat 3rd seed Jaeger in final.
USO 83: beat 5th seed Shriver and in the final Evert.
AO 83: beat 3rd seed Shriver and in the final 9th seed K. Jordan.
FO 84: beat 4th seed Mandlikova and in the final Evert.
Wim 84: beat 6th seed Jordan and Evert.
USO 84: beat 13th seed Turnbull (31) and Evert.
AO 84: lost to 9th seed Sukova.

Evert was a legit opponent but the rest were absolute clowns.
We don't even talk about Jordan, Jaeger and Turnbull.
Leaves us with Mandlikova and Shriver who were #3 and #4 in the world at that time.

Shriver and Mandlikova were still young (mid-20ies) at the end of the 80ies when they ran into Steffi Graf.

At age 16 Graf played Hana for the first time (in 1986 at Hilton Head) and beat her easily 6-2 6-4. Some weeks later she lost to her in 3 sets at FO 86 while having a severe cold. After that Steffi won against Hana 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1987), 6-4 6-1 (FedCup 1987), 6-2 6-2 (Zurich 1987), 6-2 6-2 (AO 1988 ), 7-6 6-3 (San Antonio 1989), 6-3 6-4 (Amelia Island 1989) and 6-0 6-1 (Mahwah 1989).
So in 1987-89 peak Graf played a 25-27-year-old Hana Mandlikova 7 times.
She won all 7 matches and all 14 sets. The average result was 6-3 6-2.

Steffi had just turned 16 when she played her first match against Shriver at Wimbledon 1985, losing in a tight 3-setter. 2 months later she beat Pam at USO but lost again in Filderstadt. At the beginning of 1986 - still being 16 - she beat Shriver in a 3-setter at the Masters. So they were even (2-2 H2H) but 16-year-old Steffi had overtaken 23-year-old Pam in the rankings in the meanwhile.
Peaking Steffi played Shriver 3 times in slams in 1987/88 with an average result of 6-2 6-2.

So much about Hana and Pam, Navratilova/Evert's main opponents of the mid-80ies ...


Condi


This must be the Graf troll that I keep seeing references to. What a total lack of respect for Mandlikova and Shriver. Hana only won 4 grand slams and is a member of the Hall of Fame. I can only hope that "Condi" is as successful in whatever it is she does for a living.

CEvertFan
04-19-2007, 12:27 AM
i don't understand the comment about evert raising her game. did she ever become semi-competitive with martina? my vague sense was it got worse, much much worse at times.


The head to head between Evert and Navratilova stands at 43-37 in Martina's favor. Who else besides Evert could have beaten Martina 37 times?!? Before a comment is made, I am taking into account that Evert OWNED Martina during most of the 70's, and then she had MAJOR trouble with Martina for almost 3 years in the 80's when she couldn't beat her 13 straight times. Chris was then able to not only start beating Martina again in 1985, she also took back the #1 ranking for 1/2 that year as well. Not bad for someone who was already in her 30s at the time. As for her raising her game, she herself has admitted that she was a better player in the 80's than she was when she was #1 in the 70's. She worked on her serve a bit, got much fitter which made her more fleet of foot and allowed her to hit with a bit more power and she also worked on coming to the net a bit as well.

VikingSamurai
04-19-2007, 02:00 AM
The point I was making was that your post was a complete and utter fabrication.Please explain to us why you did that as, otherwise, I see very little point in trying to inform you of anything. If you're willing to lie to justify your (false) claims, why would I believe you're capable of accepting genuine facts that don't suit you ?

Andrew I have always made reference to Margaret Court also, but as usual, these people simply dont want to believe history , and are always trying to change it..

I always say to everyone. You cant bag Margaret Court for being so good, and thats exactly what it comes down to.

History is history. Its just sad some people want to change it to suit their particular argument.. Margaret Court was, and always will be, the greatest tennis player to ever live!!

Dont believe me.. Then go count her name on all 4 trophies!

Condoleezza
04-19-2007, 10:20 AM
This must be the Graf troll that I keep seeing references to. What a total lack of respect for Mandlikova and Shriver. Hana only won 4 grand slams and is a member of the Hall of Fame. ...

Shriver is in the Hall of Fame, too. Yes, I don't respect her at all. Mean character, no tennis talent.
Mandlikova had some talent. Was worse than Novotna, though.

Condi

Condoleezza
04-19-2007, 10:22 AM
Andrew I have always made reference to Margaret Court also, but as usual, these people simply dont want to believe history , and are always trying to change it..

I always say to everyone. You cant bag Margaret Court for being so good, and thats exactly what it comes down to.

History is history. Its just sad some people want to change it to suit their particular argument.. Margaret Court was, and always will be, the greatest tennis player to ever live!!

Dont believe me.. Then go count her name on all 4 trophies!


Yes, all these mixed doubles titles at AO in the 60ies - awesome ...

Condi

suwanee4712
04-19-2007, 12:49 PM
Shriver is in the Hall of Fame, too. Yes, I don't respect her at all. Mean character, no tennis talent.
Mandlikova had some talent. Was worse than Novotna, though.

Condi

This is laughable. No offense to Jana, who was a wonderful player. But Hana would've beaten her every day all week and twice on Sunday. Not that you would care to know why. But it has everything to do with the fact that Hana was much more versatile in the backcourt, especially off the backhand side, including a topspin backhand that was as good as her slice backhand. Because of her largely absent topspin or flat backhand, Jana was too easily attackable. Which is why she had so little success against Martina who was well past her prime in the 90's.

You disgrace Steffi. You disgrace her rivals who earned her respect and should've earned yours. And you disgrace players like Aranxta, Gaby, and Jana when you use them for your Steffi-worship and go around saying that they were better players than Chris and Hana.

The amazing thing about you, Calimero, is that if Steffi knew you, she'd be disgusted by you and your militant willful ignorance. Kind of like she's digusted by Gunter Parche. Steffi's far too decent for you.

Condoleezza
04-19-2007, 01:05 PM
This is laughable. No offense to Jana, who was a wonderful player. But Hana would've beaten her every day all week and twice on Sunday. Not that you would care to know why. But it has everything to do with the fact that Hana was much more versatile in the backcourt, especially off the backhand side, including a topspin backhand that was as good as her slice backhand. Because of her largely absent topspin or flat backhand, Jana was too easily attackable. Which is why she had so little success against Martina who was well past her prime in the 90's.

You disgrace Steffi. ...

By telling the truth about Hana Mandlikova?
Please explain.

BTW, Mandlikova won 514 and lost 181 matches.
Novotna was 526-208.
Almost the same - but Jana didn't play in an era where Jaeger and Shriver types could get to #3 and #4 ....

Condi

suwanee4712
04-19-2007, 01:50 PM
By telling the truth about Hana Mandlikova?
Please explain.

BTW, Mandlikova won 514 and lost 181 matches.
Novotna was 526-208.
Almost the same - but Jana didn't play in an era where Jaeger and Shriver types could get to #3 and #4 ....

Condi


There's THE truth and then there's your truth. I think people have figured out by now the difference between the two............

Your lack of respect of a player of calibur of Mandlikova says a lot about you. And I'm confused as to why you would be so unkind Shriver. She did, after all, beat Steffi in New York during the year of her Golden Slam. Earlier that same year, she stretched Steffi to 7-6 in the third in Boca Raton.

I don't care to get into disparaging Jana or any other player. I'll leave that up to you. But without a doubt 1993-1999 will go down as the weakest time in womens tennis history. The actions of a madman in Hamburg, Germany made sure of that.

Really, you should've gotten some new material over the last couple of years. Your twisting of facts, incessant misuse of stats and context, and your taste for your own special Graf-tinted brand of revisionist history are as weak and transparent today as ever.

Condoleezza
04-19-2007, 01:58 PM
... But without a doubt 1993-1999 will go down as the weakest time in womens tennis history. ....

Wimbledon final 1993.
Wimbledon final 1995.
USO final 1995.
FO final 1996.
FO final 1999.

5 absolute classics within 6 years.

Thanks, Dumbo ...


Condi

suwanee4712
04-19-2007, 02:03 PM
Wimbledon final 1993.
Wimbledon final 1995.
USO final 1995.
FO final 1996.
FO final 1999.

5 absolute classics within 6 years.

Thanks, Dumbo ...


Condi

"Dumbo?" :razz: I'm laughing at you........

The 70's and 80's were filled with even more classics, and by players who rank higher on almost anyone's all time greatest list.

Condoleezza
04-19-2007, 02:10 PM
"Dumbo?" :razz: I'm laughing at you........

The 70's and 80's were filled with even more classics, and by players who rank higher on almost anyone's all time greatest list.

Sadly almost no one remembers those "classics".
But people remember Novotna's tears in 93, the famous 13th game in the Wimbledon 95 final, Seles's return at USO 95 and the schooling of a ***** at FO 99. And they will even in 20 years ....

Condi

suwanee4712
04-19-2007, 02:14 PM
Sadly almost no one remembers those "classics".
But people remember Novotna's tears in 93, the famous 13th game in the Wimbledon 95 final, Seles's return at USO 95 and the schooling of a ***** at FO 99. And they will even in 20 years ....

Condi


Perhaps in your own little world, which you're very good at building and then shutting out reality. Those "classics" will stand the test of time. Just as maybe one or two of the matches you listed will.

tennus
04-19-2007, 10:03 PM
By telling the truth about Hana Mandlikova?
Please explain.

BTW, Mandlikova won 514 and lost 181 matches.
Condi
Condi, you seem to have a thing for dismissing the achievements of Hana Mandlikova. She was an incredible player with Grand Slam wins over Navratilova, Evert and Graf. She was, in my and others opinion an under achiever due to injury. Many of her losses came post her last GS victory in the 1987 AO. It is also well known that Hana was forced to recreate herself as a player due to a chronic back injury in the early 1980's. You point out the demolition job Steffi did on her in the 88 AO Q/F. Post 87 Hana was struggling to string matches together in tournaments and it was not unusual for her to capitulate badly mid tournament to the truly great players.........Navratilova, Graf, Evert. She also fell to some average players. In an extract from her autobiography "Hana"(1989) she says,"The game is going to change when Chris Evert and Martina Navratilova retire and no one should underestimate the marvellous advertisement they have been for womens tennis. The emphasis of the game could switch to Europe, with Steffi heading the cast of top European players. Steffi is already on record as hinting that she does not wish to stay in the game as long as Chris and Martina have. It is not easy to retain your eagerness, motivation, or even health, for a ten year span." Given this book was published in 1989 - quite an insight I believe. ;)

VikingSamurai
04-20-2007, 04:07 AM
Yes, all these mixed doubles titles at AO in the 60ies - awesome ...

Condi

Huh?.. Margaret Court has way more singles titles, doubles titles, and mixed titles that even Steffi could ever dream about..:D

Condi why do you always do this to yourself?

Next you are going to try and tell me that the colour black is actually white??.. Forget about tennis for a minute.. I want you to prove to me that the colour white is really black!.. And I am serious with this request!

obanaghan
05-04-2007, 05:05 PM
Martina is supposed to be the subject of this thread. MN put together an unbelievable string of losing but 3 matches over the two year period and winning every major tournament(at least once) including 6 slams in a row!!

Adding in 1982 she only lost 6 matches in 3 years!! That's 8/12 Slams won. She won more Slams in 3 years than Hingis, Venus etc EVER did.

MN is right that hard work should count for something!!

CEvertFan
05-05-2007, 01:39 PM
Martina is supposed to be the subject of this thread. MN put together an unbelievable string of losing but 3 matches over the two year period and winning every major tournament(at least once) including 6 slams in a row!!

Adding in 1982 she only lost 6 matches in 3 years!! That's 8/12 Slams won. She won more Slams in 3 years than Hingis, Venus etc EVER did.

MN is right that hard work should count for something!!


During Martina's domination period she was SO much more fit than any other woman tennis player that she felt like she could run forever and get to any ball and serve and volley all day and then she started winning everything in sight because of her amazing fitness and her confidence soared as a result. The mental side of Martina's game was more of a weakness for her than anything else but she did become stronger in that regard.