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View Full Version : Why Doesn't Federer Use More Topspin?


Pancho
04-26-2007, 05:50 AM
Federer has never beaten Nadal on clay. Why doesn't Federer create more topspin. I believe if Federer creates the massive topspin that Nadal do on clay, Federer can beat Nadal and give him a taste of Nadal's own mediciene. If Federer can create that kind of topspin, he can win Frech Open.

cbtennisdude
04-26-2007, 06:01 AM
I believe that nadal is so good on clay that just a little more topspin would not give federer that needed extra boost in beating nadal on clay

Jonny S&V
04-26-2007, 06:21 AM
No. If he adds even a little more topspin, he'll have more safety, but he's get tired out more quickly and I don't think he could stand up to Nadal if it did go to a 5th set.

latinking
04-26-2007, 06:22 AM
I believe that nadal is so good on clay that just a little more topspin would not give federer that needed extra boost in beating nadal on clay

I agree. To beat Nadal you need to hit flater and early. Even on clay, and its hard to do that on clay thats why he is so hard to beat. Fed needs to be hitting very clean to beat him on clay and be aggesive. Come to the net, so what if you get passed time to time at the net, from the base line on clay its to hard to beat him, he forces to many errors. You are better off coming to the net.

latinking
04-26-2007, 06:23 AM
He played him perfect in Rome last year, just didn't put it away. Damn he had 2 match points.

Alafter
04-26-2007, 06:25 AM
Fed needs to read the ball that is coming to him better. That would help him a bunch in manipulating the ball for a more deadly shot. It seems he has a hard time anticipating the bounce of the ball on clay.

McStud
04-26-2007, 06:36 AM
If I were Federer I would hit more low, down the line slice backhands to Nadals backhand then try and draw Nadal up to the net then hit passing shots. I am unimpressed with Federers strategy against Nadal on clay, it seems that Fed is trying to beat Rafa by standing back behind the baseline and playing "clay court" tennis against one of the best clay courters of all time.. Fed should want the points to end as quickly as possible. The longer the point goes on then the more the odds favor Nadal, obviously.

latinking
04-26-2007, 06:44 AM
If I were Federer I would hit more low, down the line slice backhands to Nadals backhand then try and draw Nadal up to the net then hit passing shots. I am unimpressed with Federers strategy against Nadal on clay, it seems that Fed is trying to beat Rafa by standing back behind the baseline and playing "clay court" tennis against one of the best clay courters of all time.. Fed should want the points to end as quickly as possible. The longer the point goes on then the more the odds favor Nadal, obviously.

Totally agree.

caulcano
04-26-2007, 06:53 AM
If I were Federer I would hit more low, down the line slice backhands to Nadals backhand then try and draw Nadal up to the net then hit passing shots. I am unimpressed with Federers strategy against Nadal on clay, it seems that Fed is trying to beat Rafa by standing back behind the baseline and playing "clay court" tennis against one of the best clay courters of all time.. Fed should want the points to end as quickly as possible. The longer the point goes on then the more the odds favor Nadal, obviously.

It's hard enough slicing down the line but to do it against Nadal you're just giving him more time to adjust. Also, the ball will probably sit up at a height nearer the waist than he head, which will probably be easier to hit.

tintin
04-26-2007, 08:46 AM
I'd rather Federer use less topspin because the shot sits there and a good mover like Nadal on clay will just smack a winner
I'd hit flat instead of hitting with spin

YonexDude
04-26-2007, 08:50 AM
he'd need to adjust his grip from an extreme eastern/semi-western to a full western/extreme western grip in order to get a nadal-type spin. he can still generate plenty of spin with his current grip, it isn't his topspin that makes him lose, it's his strategy.

that kind of grip change is also practically impossible for a professional to do after he spends his entire life learning and perfecting his current grip.

Grimjack
04-26-2007, 09:36 AM
Why Doesn't Federer Use More Topspin?

Because he's the best player in the world -- arguably the best player the world has ever seen -- playing the style game he plays. Why the hell would he change his whole style in an effort to move from 2nd best on clay to best on clay, when such a change would make him less effective on every other slam surface?

At the highest level of anything, you can't just tweak in a little change like "use more topspin" for a handful of matches each year, and expect it to work at a world-champion level. He'd have to overhaul his game for a "more topspin" approach to be effective at all, and overhauling one's game isn't something you do when you're sitting on top of the world.

z-money
04-26-2007, 09:45 AM
his eastern is better for driving through the ball i think and thats what he likes to do. you say y doesnt he hit more topspin? i say why doesnt he have a fulltime coach? answer: he doesnt feel he needs to. and you can hardly doubt the results he still had only lost 3 matches. he could easily lose one or two more all year. so when you have the ability to out rally, out hit, and out play in every way everyone but nadal (who has problems playing power players on hardcourts) that is good enough to get the dominance he has had and keep it

Ripper
04-26-2007, 09:46 AM
Why do people think it's easy for a pro to just change the way he hits the ball for a certain surface and, then, change it back for another surface. It's not that simple. Plus, I think Federer has tried that already and failed. That's why he's always looking for other ways. Nadal has tried the opposite of what the title of this thread suggests, for fast courts, and it, almost, screwed up his game. You are what you are, period. Federer and Nadal are so good that they can win on other surfaces. Very few players are like that.

z-money
04-26-2007, 09:58 AM
fed dominates grass because it suits his game. nadal dominates clay because it suits his game. the battle will be with the hard courts where both can win. but that is where they are both weaker i think. fed on clay has only lost to like Guga and nadal at the french (past 3 years) and other tourneys. but he loses on occasion to canas murray safin all on hard courts. nadal has a block with blake berdych and other power players. except poor andy roddick he is everyones whipping boy

omniexist
04-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Add more topspin? What good would that do? Fed would go down even faster if he tried a stunt like that. It'd take months of retooling at their level.

Bottle Rocket
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
You guys raelly think you know better than a 10 time slam winner?

It's too bad Fed doesn't read this board, he'd surely have a few FO's by now if he did.

tintin
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
can he in anyway block Nadal's serves back to him and break the pace the way he does Roddick? :confused:
would than then,give him more time to set up his own shots a little more?

gshaffer23
04-26-2007, 10:12 AM
maybe he should serve left-handed too..... that would really throw off Nadal

z-money
04-26-2007, 10:16 AM
have you seen that thing is really full of spin. andys is flat all you have to too is hit a ok chip in the sweetspot and the ball will go back as deep as he wants. spin is hardest to handle by far

chiru
04-26-2007, 10:40 AM
Because he's the best player in the world -- arguably the best player the world has ever seen -- playing the style game he plays. Why the hell would he change his whole style in an effort to move from 2nd best on clay to best on clay, when such a change would make him less effective on every other slam surface?

At the highest level of anything, you can't just tweak in a little change like "use more topspin" for a handful of matches each year, and expect it to work at a world-champion level. He'd have to overhaul his game for a "more topspin" approach to be effective at all, and overhauling one's game isn't something you do when you're sitting on top of the world.

Yah, soemtimes I wonder if Pete hadn't worked so hard to win the French in 06 would he have won wimbledon? I really felt as well as krajicek played in the QF, pete just wasn't himself. As a result he lost both the FO and wimbledon, althought i have to say, I probably wudda changed my opinion ot the opposite had pete won the FO and only lost one wimbledon as a result

ShooterMcMarco
04-26-2007, 12:37 PM
Because he's the best player in the world -- arguably the best player the world has ever seen -- playing the style game he plays. Why the hell would he change his whole style in an effort to move from 2nd best on clay to best on clay, when such a change would make him less effective on every other slam surface?

At the highest level of anything, you can't just tweak in a little change like "use more topspin" for a handful of matches each year, and expect it to work at a world-champion level. He'd have to overhaul his game for a "more topspin" approach to be effective at all, and overhauling one's game isn't something you do when you're sitting on top of the world.

I don't think it requires a complete overhaul of his game to "use more topspin." He already has the ability to do it, and it shows in his shot selection. Sometimes he hits flat penetrating shots, then at times he hits spinny loopers or hits a combination of both. I think with clay, its just a tactical adjustment and better execution (also not allowing Nads to get in his head). He can already hit with tons of spin. Plus the easy spinny crosscourt forehand from Nadal to his bh is a serious liability in itself.

Ripper
04-26-2007, 12:39 PM
have you seen that thing is really full of spin. andys is flat all you have to too is hit a ok chip in the sweetspot and the ball will go back as deep as he wants. spin is hardest to handle by far

Very true.

eldoop
04-26-2007, 01:08 PM
I remember I once saw a website that contained high frame per second video analysis of the groundstrokes and serves of different pros. Among other things, they were able to obtain the revolutions per minute produced for the shots that pros hit. It was truly incredible how much topspin Federer was able to hit with. While the spin on his groundstrokes varied considerably, he hit one forehand with more topspin than the average kick serve of all the players tested. The website did not have a similar analysis of Nadal for what its worth, probably because I looked at the site before Nadal was a top player.

One reason that Federer might not hit as many slices on clay as he would on other surfaces, grass for example, is that it is harder so slice a high bouncing ball and the bounce of the slice is a little less effective on a clay court. Although hitting low bouncing balls is likely to be effective against someone with an extreme western grip, if that strategy was effective on clay courts it would be more heavily utilized. I don't really know what Federer needs to do to defeat Nadal, but since he came within match point of winning in Rome I would keep the same strategy.

I think that two things Federer can improve are his mental toughness in close matches (although some of you will probably argue that he is extremely mentally tough, but I think that his dominance is due almost entirely to his talent and that there are a handful of close matches that he would have won had he played the important points better such as the one match to lost to Roddick where a win would have made him number one in the world), and his physical condition. Obviously he is in great shape but I think no one will dispute that there are players on tour who work harder on fitness than Federer. I don't think he needs to be like Courier or Muster, but he is a professional athlete in a sport where small advantages can be the difference between winning and losing. I remember hearing about how in the past he would spend a lot of time working in Dubai specifically on his fitness, I think if he just improves upon that slightly it could be enough to give him the edge over Nadal. I have been under the impression that Federer is a little less fit this year than in past years, but I could be mistaken.

I should point out that I am fan of Nadal and I usually admire players that are mentally tough and have a great work ethic, so it shouldn't be surprising that I criticize Federer along these lines. I tend to root for the guys who are animals instead of the guys who are the most talented and have the prettiest games (Muster is also one of my favourites).

eldoop
04-26-2007, 01:32 PM
I should emphasize that I think that whatever workouts and running that Federer does do would probably seem extremely hard to most people who aren't professional athletes. I think he can do more, and if he did, it would definitely make him a better tennis player, thats all. I'm not suggesting that he needs to bench press 300 pounds like Agassi. But I do think a typical clay court grinder in the top 100 works harder on fitness than Fed has this year.

VGP
04-26-2007, 01:39 PM
Nadal's beat him on hard and seriously tested him on grass. Clay is obviously the biggest test for Federer.

Federer v Nadal is just a bad matchup for Federer.

Suck it up.

Heavy Metal Tennis Star
04-26-2007, 03:59 PM
it aint about how you hit, its how you can hit, and nadal is the only one that can take it into federes face.

weeman123
04-26-2007, 05:06 PM
federer's ball is so heavy yall don't understand the only person that hits more is nadal. Federer's ball jumps like crazy

The Gorilla
04-26-2007, 05:22 PM
why would federer want to hit a higher bouncing ball to someone with a full western?

flyboy1
04-26-2007, 06:56 PM
The last two posts hit the nail on the head. Federer uses a tremendous amount of spin. All of the announcers talk about how Federer's ball moves so quickly through the court after it lands. Like posted above, Nadal is really the only one with more topspin than Federer.

That being said, Gorrilla is right, why in the hell would Federer want to give MORE balls into Nadal's wheelhouse? Use the slice to make Nadal hit less agressive shots, then take it to him. But if Federer and Nadal get into a topspin contest (as has happened several times before), we all know who's gonna win that one. Hint, he has long hair, picks his underwear, and wears womens capri pants, otherwise known as the Eurotrash pirate look.

Hot Sauce
04-26-2007, 07:07 PM
Wouldn't that give Nadal more topspin to feed off?

ATXtennisaddict
04-26-2007, 07:39 PM
Federer is the 2nd best clay player in the world behind Nadal. And he's the best at everything else.

That's not too bad.

tennis_hand
04-26-2007, 07:56 PM
Just re-watch the USO 2004 against Hewitt and see how Fed's topspin threw off Hewitt.

His is blend of topspin and penetration, so he is so good at all surfaces.
Nadal is extreme on topspin, so he is the best on clay and above mediocre on other surfaces. Players such Berdych, Blake and Gonzalez are hard hitters with more penetration but less spin, so they are mediocre on clay, but better on hard surfaces.

Pancho
04-27-2007, 11:49 AM
Because he's the best player in the world -- arguably the best player the world has ever seen -- playing the style game he plays. Why the hell would he change his whole style in an effort to move from 2nd best on clay to best on clay, when such a change would make him less effective on every other slam surface?

At the highest level of anything, you can't just tweak in a little change like "use more topspin" for a handful of matches each year, and expect it to work at a world-champion level. He'd have to overhaul his game for a "more topspin" approach to be effective at all, and overhauling one's game isn't something you do when you're sitting on top of the world.



You have a great point here. I guess Federer doesn't mind being the 2nd best in the world on Clay but best in the world in every other surface. This is an amazing feat and Federer's strokes are so economical, he can be a pro for many more years to come. Besides, Nadal is more prone to injuries unlike Federer due to his hard extreme topspin playinh style. I won't be surprised if he quits early.