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View Full Version : Wonder Wedge. Does this really work?


player69
09-17-2004, 05:32 AM
Hi guys,

Has anyone tried this? Does it really work?

Bungalo Bill
09-17-2004, 11:53 AM
The Wonder Wedge does work. It works because it locks in your grip whichever that may be. It forces a good grip change and the ellevated bevel gives you better feel for the grip of your choice.

For the onehanded backhand it is excellent. Becuase of the elevation it promotes, you will feel your hand gain strength around the handle, this obviously promotes solid contact. For the twohander it works very well and promotes proper hand placement for the grip of choice.

It is ideal to learn fast grip changes as you can really feel how your fingers lock in.

You can also generate a hell of a lot more spin. Because the hand is firmer on the grip, there is less twisting in the hand, especially if you sweat a lot. Because there is less twisting, off center shots feel like they are on center. Spin becomes massive because of how stable the racquet is in your hand.

If you use a SW grip with a windshield wiper motion, you can really crank the racquet up the back of the ball becuase of the increased leverage you get from the Wonder Wedge.

Spin serves gain tremendous kick. You can really crank up the spin in the ball.

It works but like anything it takes time to get used to it. It is an approved USTA product. Which means that you dont have to worry about someone trying to disqualify you from an improperly enhanced racquet. When you purchase a Wonder Wedge you also get a document illustrating that the Wonder Wedge is an approved product that can be used on the racquet for USTA tournament play.

Of all the things that have changed in racquet technology, the handle of the racquet remains virtually unchanged. This is a revolutionary product.

Illegal_edge
09-17-2004, 12:32 PM
Whats a Wonder Wedge?

player69
09-17-2004, 12:32 PM
BB,

Thanks for the detailed information. I love this game, but it is very fustrating at times. My tennis skills have been like a roller coaster ride. One month I'll be loving my ground strokes and the way I'm hitting. When I'm in this state of mind, I would think that I've found my comfort zone and all I need to do is improve on consistancy. Then the next month, I would be totally lost. I'ld have to start over again to find my grip and forehand. I've been making excuses about the strings and the weather, but I'm sure it's my grip. It seems as if my grip changes every 3 weeks or so.
Do you think the wonder wedge will help? I guess it doesn't hurt to try.

Do you have any other suggestions to help with my grip change?

Tim Tennis
09-17-2004, 12:34 PM
It works big time. It helps if you are able to analyze your shots in terms of: the grip used, the swing path, the contact point, and racquet head angle, to the results. It might cause you to close your racquet head angle slightly because you will be encouraged to move your hand to the "true grip placement," plus the increased leverage and traction will put more spin and action on the ball. If you are able to understand what is going on and make some minor adjustments to your game you will be amazed at the results.

Read what Bungalo Bill had to say.

On a different note, I would encourage all players to try Tim Tennis's product out to help achieve the proper grip and help in producing more power in your strokes. His revolutionary product is excellent and I highly recommend it. It has also been approved for tournament play by the USTA and will help a lot of people learn how to hold the proper grip for serving, groundstrokes, volleys, etc.

It is very revolutionary and I feel it is a great tennis training aid. If yoru interested please visit his site at http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/ it is a very inexpensive product that can really help your game.

Bungalo Bill
09-17-2004, 12:47 PM
BB,

Thanks for the detailed information. I love this game, but it is very fustrating at times. My tennis skills have been like a roller coaster ride. One month I'll be loving my ground strokes and the way I'm hitting. When I'm in this state of mind, I would think that I've found my comfort zone and all I need to do is improve on consistancy. Then the next month, I would be totally lost. I'ld have to start over again to find my grip and forehand. I've been making excuses about the strings and the weather, but I'm sure it's my grip. It seems as if my grip changes every 3 weeks or so.
Do you think the wonder wedge will help? I guess it doesn't hurt to try.

Do you have any other suggestions to help with my grip change?

Grip changes are a weird thing to practice. At times I often feel like a kid in front of a mirror drawing my pistol to shoot the bad guy. Practicing the grip change is done this way. You need to practice grips changing either in front of the mirror or whereever till it bcomes second nature and boring.

You never know what products can help your game. The cost is so minimal that you really have nothing to lose. I know this that your hand will feel stronger and you will know for sure you are in the right grip (or the wrong grip) for your shots. It does take time to get used to as it enhances the handle. So you need to use it for a good two months.

One thing you will notice right off the bat providing you have good technique is the spin you can generate off the ball.

For Eastern forehand players, kiss those days goodbye of people saying you cant generate as much topspin with an Eastern forehand as compared to a SW or Western forehand player. When they see your ball jump, they will say HOLY COW!

On another note, this is an excellent product for kids as well. Becuase it strengthens the hand and therefore the contact with the ball, it is very possible to teach a young child to hit a onehanded backhand!

papa
09-17-2004, 05:16 PM
I once suggested that this product was not only good for the average player but that it "might" be an excellent item for wheel chair athletes because they have to re-grip the racquet after moving themselves into position. My posts were kinda scoffed at such is life.

Now, I've never tried this particular product but I have recommended it to several players who seemed to have significant problems in either gripping the racquet or found it difficult to change grips. In one case that I know of the individual was extremely pleased with the results.

Before I knew that this product existed, I suggested to several people to use popsicle sticks in a similar manner - underneath the wrap. I think the "wonder wedge" is a much better solution and would work for many.

You know, if the addition of this makes the handle too thick, I would think one could shave down the basic handle a little to compensate -- most handles are wood. Just a thought.

Incidently, a lot of older players loose their grip a little as they age and this also could be an answer.

lenosucks
09-17-2004, 07:07 PM
Did they pay you or give you any sort of compensation for using your endorsement on their website BB?

mackadilly
09-17-2004, 10:21 PM
I also use this product for the same reasons as BB and others mention.

My forehand and backhand has been very inconsistent and unpredictable all summer. At first I thought it was due my summer long wrist tenderness( Which i thought was caused by the Prince Diablo). Then I realized that I stopped using the Wonder-Wedge.

I just reordered one and low and behold the top spin is back.
Great personalized customer service.

Note: If installed correctly, the change in the geometry of the handle will render the grip size is to be almost insignificant.

Note 2: Try installing the WW with the original grip instead of an overgrip. The expanded surface area is very beneficial.

luckylooser
09-17-2004, 10:41 PM
How long has this WW on the market? I was wondering, if it's such a great product, why we never heard any top ranked professional using it? Or is there anyone?

If it's relatively new and takes time for people to get to know it, can we expect a rising young player using this?

Tim Tennis
09-18-2004, 05:49 AM
No, I have not paid Bungalo Bill but I really need to do something very special for him. His endorsement/testimonial has had even more of an affect them the one I received from the high performance development coach, Peter D. McCraw, when he was at Bollettieri's. Peter is back in Australia now and continues to support the Wonder Wedge. There are not many tennis people that can really capture my attention but when Bungalo Bill speaks/posts, I listen and learn. The guy is fantastic as eveyone on this forum knows.

As far as any professionals using it I haven't a clue. I do know that occassionally I will get some fairly large orders from some of the tennis hot spots in Florida. The Russia Tennis Federation had asked for a number of samples. I have a great testimonial that I am going to put up from a dad in Texas whose son plays in the junior tournaments and is going to be playing in a national boys 18s champs tournament in December. Here is what he said.


hello again well today i re-gripped my sons racquets and at first he said it felt weird but it about 10 minutes he is hitting so much better i couldnt believe my eyes.... his strokes were crisper and fuller .... it was so rythmic .... i really need to get some more WWs for my sons other 2 racquets... please get back to me

my son will be going for the SUPER CHAMP status in Boys 18s here in SAN ANTONIO and i will get him to write a really in depth review for you so that you could possibly attract more younger customers!

thanks again for an AWESOME product!


So the Wonder Wedge is finally getting out there and who knows.

You got to love the game.

Aoya
09-19-2004, 09:34 PM
If I use continental for volleys and serves, how would the Wonder Wedge affect me?

David I.
09-19-2004, 11:06 PM
I've tried the WW and it feels very weird at first. It only gives you three grip options: forehand, backhand, and continental. If you use any inbetween grips like I do, fuggetaboutit!

Tim Tennis
09-20-2004, 01:14 AM
Aoya,

The WW is great for the Continental grip for two reasons: 1) Most people extend their index finger (back to the Pistol Grip) when they use this grip on serves, volleys and backhands. Their finger will notch on the beveled tip. This provides a great frame of reference plus it prevents the index finger from sliding down. 2) Because the size of bevel 2 has been increased, the knuckle on the base of the index finger notches on this bevel making this grip so easy to find. The increased leverage and traction will transfer more energy and power to the ball.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
09-20-2004, 03:37 AM
I've tried the WW and it feels very weird at first. It only gives you three grip options: forehand, backhand, and continental. If you use any inbetween grips like I do, fuggetaboutit!

Hi David, I agree with you, but if you think about it, inbetween grips are difficult to use and find on any shaped tennis racquet handle. In fact I consider the Semi-Western and the Continental inbetween grips because the bevels are so small. The Wonder Wedge takes care of this problem by increasing the size of bevel 2 and bevel 4. Now the knuckle on the base of your index will notch on the increased surface surface area making it easy to find and make the transition to these grips. In fact look at the outline below and you will see that all of the other bevels remain the same size except the bevel for the Eastern forehand grip, but it is still very easy to find.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Hit_Like_A_Pro/IMAG0001.JPG

vin
09-20-2004, 08:34 AM
I've known about this product for a while and must admit that BB's comments have me more interested.

Does this product still work on the narrower grips that are found on some of the Volkl and Head racquets? I think it might be called the tour grip?

Tim Tennis
09-20-2004, 09:05 AM
Vin,

The WW is .75 inches wide on the base if that helps. When you take off the grip that your racquet came with, it will probably be very close to that. When you attach it with the tape if the bevel 3 is slightly smaller it will pull the sides down snug anyhow. It is approx. 6.25 inches long and can be cut to accomodate your hand size.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Hit_Like_A_Pro/IMAG0000.JPG

andirez
09-20-2004, 09:51 AM
Vin,

The WW is .75 inches wide on the base if that helps. When you take off the grip that your racquet came with, it will probably be very close to that. When you attach it with the tape if the bevel 3 is slightly smaller it will pull the sides down snug anyhow. It is approx. 6.25 inches long and can be cut to accomodate your hand size.

Tim, do you need to decrease your grip size by one if you apply the Wonder Wedge. For instance, I play with a 4 1/2, if I add the WW, it will become slightly larger than 4 1/2 and I might be better of equiping a 4 3/8 with the WW to come close to the 4 1/2 circumference?

Tim Tennis
09-20-2004, 11:12 AM
Tim, do you need to decrease your grip size by one if you apply the Wonder Wedge. For instance, I play with a 4 1/2, if I add the WW, it will become slightly larger than 4 1/2 and I might be better of equiping a 4 3/8 with the WW to come close to the 4 1/2 circumference?

More then likely the grip size will be fine. It should be very close. It all depends on just how thick the grip is that you take off your handle. It varies from mfg. to mfg. Keep in mind that the WW changes the whole dynamics of the handle and now is going to fit in your hand differently. Many racquets come with bulky grips which actually obscures all the bevels. When you attach the WW with the tape and them add your favorite overwrap the definition is tremendous for all the bevels.

Andirez, thanks for the question.

andirez
09-20-2004, 11:25 AM
Thanks for the quick reply Tim.

One other question: The reason why I am interested in the Wonder Wedge is that I think it might alleviate the stress on my hand due to the increase of the contact surface between the racquet's grip and my hand. Is there any proof that WW reduces the forces imparted on your playing hand by spreading out the contact surface or is this just a matter of trying it out and see if it does the trick?

Tim Tennis
09-20-2004, 11:42 AM
Andirez

One other question: The reason why I am interested in the Wonder Wedge is that I think it might alleviate the stress on my hand due to the increase of the contact surface between the racquet's grip and my hand. Is there any proof that WW reduces the forces imparted on your playing hand by spreading out the contact surface or is this just a matter of trying it out and see if it does the trick?

Since the grip size is about the same with the WW attached it will not increase the contact surface area but it will change the contact points you are currently using because it fits differently in your hand. It is made of Sorbothane, the registered trade mark of Sorbothane corp. which is a fantastic shock absorption material that you see in a lot of running shoes and better tennis shoes. You can't wear it out. Great stuff.

Aoya
09-20-2004, 03:50 PM
Haha, sorry, but I have a few more questions if you wouldn't mind answering.

First, I have a LM Prestige (for frame reference)..but as on all racquets, the butt cap is bigger than the rest of the handle..(you know how it flares)..how in the bajeebus do you attach the Wonder Wedge on it? Looking at the Wonder Wedge design, it's flat, making it rather difficult, unless cut. That, or leave a gap.

Second, what exactly is Sorbothane? Is it a soft rubber type that's easily cut? Or..?

Third, can you apply your own overgrip to this?

Thanks. Probably going to order one soon, if mail order is an option.

Tim Tennis
09-21-2004, 05:24 AM
Aoya,

Excellent questions.

the butt cap is bigger than the rest of the handle..(you know how it flares)..how in the bajeebus do you attach the Wonder Wedge on it? Looking at the Wonder Wedge design, it's flat, making it rather difficult, unless cut. That, or leave a gap.


If you go to the site and examine the various photos you will notice that some of the WWs are attached very close to the end of the butt cap and some are about 1/4 inch from the end of the handle. I play with 6 racquets and the WWs are all attached to varying degrees like you described above. When I play with the different racquets it does not seem to make any difference just how closely they are attached to the end of the handle. What I do recommend is that you place a couple of extra wraps of the tape you attach the WW with to really secure the cut end. A side benefit is, if you place enough extra wraps on the end you will build up a slight ridge, which for the power players who like to have part of their hand off the handle, (especially the SW) the end notches underneath the base of the thumb and makes the handle very secure in their hand. Look at some of the Pros handles, some of them are really built up on the end.

Second, what exactly is Sorbothane? Is it a soft rubber type that's easily cut? Or..?


"Sorbothane is an innovative visco-elastic material. Although it is a solid, it mimics liquid properties. High mechanical damping, faultless memory, returns to original shape time after time, remains stable over a uniquely broad period of time." That is straight from their brochure. The bottom line is you can't wear it out and it provides fantastic shock absorption. Yes, it is difficult to cut, but it is not hard to cut it straight down with a shape knife.
like you would need to cut the WW to adjust it to your hand size.

Third, can you apply your own overgrip to this?

Sure, whatever you like, just don't put the grip that your racquet came with back on. This will build up the handle too much. Some customers have told me that they have done that but I just can't imagine.

andirez
09-22-2004, 07:24 AM
Yet another question Tim.

Would you say that the Wonder Wedge allows you to loosen your grip a bit more compared to a regular grip (due to the improved contact area)?

Tim Tennis
09-22-2004, 09:47 AM
Andirez

Would you say that the Wonder Wedge allows you to loosen your grip a bit more compared to a regular grip (due to the improved contact area)?

I would have to say, "No." You still need to have a firm grip on the handle.

Tim Tennis
09-23-2004, 06:43 AM
Hi Guys,

I would like to thank everybody for their interest, and all the great questions asked. It does look like a number of you did visit the site which is greatly appreciated.

Would especially like to thank Bungalo Bill for his excellent comments. He explained the Wonder Wedge much better then the site does, which is not surprising. I know we received a number of orders from the TW forum group because of the many notes saying how much respect they have for him.

For those that tried the WW, thanks. It takes a lot of guts to take the grip off your racquet and attach a foreign object to it and trying to cut it to the size you want, very confusing for most people. You have got to really love the game and have a lot of desire to be the best you can be. Once you get it attached you have to go out, practice, experiment, try to figure out what is going on. Some people think they have died and gone to tennis heaven and make the transition right away, another group will do very well off on side (forehand or backhand) but have trouble with the other but eventually figure it out, others just can't seem to make the transition (very few).

Again, thanks so much for your interest.

Bungalo Bill
09-23-2004, 11:22 AM
Your welcome TT.

I would like to hear from those who have tried the WW. What are your questions? How has it helped.

For those teaching children, this is a great aid in helping them firm up the grip and helping them learn the proper swing path for the grip of choice. The extra leverage is great for their little hands. The best thing is they have no "unlearning" to do!

andirez
09-24-2004, 02:19 PM
Okey, I ordered two :D

Can't wait to try this out and I plan to post a review of how it is working out for me once I receive them :)

Tim Tennis
09-24-2004, 05:00 PM
Andirez,

Thanks for the order, it will go out first thing tomorrow morning. Since it is an export order it usually takes 7 to 10 days. Thanks for including the $7.00 export fee, sometimes this confuses people. That is what it cost to send it overseas.

Can't wait for you to give a detailed explanation. There are usually phases people go through. 1) Shock, :shock: ( It will feel different ), 2 ) Making friends with it, getting accustomed to the new feel and how it fits in your hand. :? ( That is why we send out the sheet, "For A Quick Start.") 3) Practice, experimentation, adjustment, all of a sudden you start to understand :idea: 4) Elation, joy, satisfaction, as you make improvements in your game and you realize the other areas of your game that the Wonder Wedge can and will improve. :lol: You will be laughing out loud and send me a great testimonial to put up on my site.

I do hope you share with the forum in some detail your experience as you go through the process. That would be very interesting.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
10-01-2004, 05:14 AM
Hi Guys, Below is the first response I have received from the forum members who tried the Wonder Wedge, as Bungalo Bill suggested. It is classic in that it highlights a major problem with club players which is, they just don't move their hand well on the racquet handle to find the various grips. Jim, thanks for your input.

Ed,

Here are my thoughts so far:

- Installed the WW on my Estusa Power Beam Braided. Normally play without the leather grip and with 2 tournagrips. No problem putting the WW on - just put 1 tournagrip over it. Added a little more lead to the head as the WW made my already very head-light racquet even more so.

- Have played only about 4-5 hours with it, but here's my initial reaction:

- Really reinforces getting the grip in the right place. For me, it's now easier to "feel" what a semi-western feels like (and to get my hand in the right place). I think it highlights the fact that previously my grip was "sloppy" and what I thought was a SW grip was actually an eastern forehand. Same thing with "feeling" a continental grip. I think my sloppiness usually put my grip in an Eastern position and now I can feel where it should be.

- The new shape of the grip forces me into either a continental or semi-western grip (which is fine). Eastern now feels strange and I don't use.

- Biggest improvement has been getting continental grip in place for solid volleys. I've never volleyed better.

- Next biggest improvement is getting added leverage for topspin on SW strokes. Really reinforces the low to high swing. I have a 2 hand backhand - so the WW doesn't have much effect on my BH.

- Jury still out my serve. Again, I think the WW now highlights the fact that I'm not used to serving with a Continental grip. Haven't hit enough serves to really get used to it. Right now I'm getting lots of spin - but no pace or consistency. Determined to keep trying though.

Hope this helps. I'll check back in a few weeks as I play with it some more. Haven't felt like ripping the WW off the racquet yet - so that's probably a good sign. Feel free to email.


http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Wonder_Wedge_W/IMAG0001.JPG
http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/

vin
10-01-2004, 09:20 AM
I ordered the wonder wedge and tried it out briefly. Here is my first impression.

When you first put your hand on the grip, it is very obvious how the wonder wedge helps you find the correct spot. This was helpful for my backhand since I've recently modified my grip. It didn't make much difference anywhere else since I was already consistently finding my grips ok.

Once you get the base of your index finger planted on the enlarged side bevel, it's also obvious how the wonder wedge can improve spin. I already hit a lot of topspin on my semiwestern forehand and didn't really see much difference with the wonder wedge, but I was looking forward for the possible improvements this would make to my kick serve. I was definitely getting more spin on my serves, but I had trouble trying to reduce the spin and get my normal level of power. It seems like the index finger plays a large role in stability and pronation with the continental grip and I felt that the wonder wedge hampered this. I think I get better support behind the grip when my index finger is against the flat side panel as opposed to the wonder wedge. For the same reason, my forehand volley felt akward.

Because my serve is my strongest and favorite shot, and I wasn't hitting it as well with the wonder wedge, I decided to put my experimentation with the wonder wedge on hold. I'm also working on a few other things that I don't want to disrupt. I plan to give it another try since I don't think that I gave it a fair chance by using it for only an hour, but as of right now I think it might not be for me.

I am certainly not suggesting that this is a bad product. For $10, you can't go wrong giving it a try. I am just sharing my limited experience with it and it may end up that I like it more after giving it another try. The product claims to provide ease in finding grips and improving spin. I have found both of these claims to be true.

Tim Tennis
10-01-2004, 09:58 AM
Vin,

Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and informative response. Very well said. Obviously you are a very high level player who is very serious about his game.

Ed

Bungalo Bill
10-01-2004, 10:15 AM
It is going to take time to get used to serving and hitting with the WW. It will take a couple months before ALL strokes feel "normal" again. That is when the biggest gains happen. You really begin to feel the leverage you can get with the WW and can take it to another level.

This just does not come on a few trys or a couple of days.

andirez
10-01-2004, 11:34 AM
Can't wait till I get mine :)

Will definitly keep you all informed on what my experience with the WW is.

vin
10-01-2004, 11:51 AM
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and informative response. Very well said.

No problem! I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way.

Obviously you are a very high level player who is very serious about his game.

The second part is true, but I'm not too sure about the first part. ;) At least not yet!

Bill,

I understand that it takes time to adjust to change, but time will not change the way that the wonder wedge modifies the handle. Would you agree that the side panel is important for leverage and support during pronation? If so, don't you think it makes sense that a smaller side panel would provide less leverage for pronation?

Most changes come with negative consequences, and I think in this case that leverage against the side panel is being sacraficed for leverage against the bevels.

You're right that I don't have enough experience with the wonder wedge to back this up, but I still think it's a plausible argument for discussion.

I guess this argument could even be carried over to the narrow tour handle that is on some Volkl and Head racquets vs the more common handle.

I should also point out that I'm not claiming that the wonder wedge prevents you from effectively pronating, just that it might hinder it a bit. For some, this might not be a concern at all. For me it is.

Tennis Guy
10-01-2004, 01:42 PM
It is going to take time to get used to serving and hitting with the WW. It will take a couple months before ALL strokes feel "normal" again. That is when the biggest gains happen. You really begin to feel the leverage you can get with the WW and can take it to another level.

This just does not come on a few trys or a couple of days.
After all you've said about it, I hope you use it. :) (or maybe I missed reading it)

Bungalo Bill
10-01-2004, 01:53 PM
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful and informative response. Very well said.

No problem! I'm glad you didn't take my post the wrong way.

Obviously you are a very high level player who is very serious about his game.

The second part is true, but I'm not too sure about the first part. ;) At least not yet!

Bill,

I understand that it takes time to adjust to change, but time will not change the way that the wonder wedge modifies the handle. Would you agree that the side panel is important for leverage and support during pronation? If so, don't you think it makes sense that a smaller side panel would provide less leverage for pronation?

Most changes come with negative consequences, and I think in this case that leverage against the side panel is being sacraficed for leverage against the bevels.

You're right that I don't have enough experience with the wonder wedge to back this up, but I still think it's a plausible argument for discussion.

I guess this argument could even be carried over to the narrow tour handle that is on some Volkl and Head racquets vs the more common handle.

I should also point out that I'm not claiming that the wonder wedge prevents you from effectively pronating, just that it might hinder it a bit. For some, this might not be a concern at all. For me it is.

I think your right in all of the above, I just know that anything "new" needs to be practiced with for awhile. Especially something that is on the handle. But you got to admit (which you have) you get some good spin with the ball.

eagle
10-02-2004, 10:11 AM
Hi,

I just ordered a couple plus the tape for my two Volkl Cat 4s.

I'm always looking for ways to improve my game or at least my technique. If it helps, then great. If not, then the cost at least is minimal.

Will keep you guys apprised.

r,
eagle

wshhmm
10-02-2004, 04:24 PM
I tried it today and I feel the advantage is obviously. However, it isn't easy to handle it for me and I don't like it at all.

Bungalo Bill
10-03-2004, 06:39 AM
I hope you guys tell Tim ways to improve the product as well. Tim already knows what I would like to have. I know he is open to hear your comments.

Tim Tennis
10-03-2004, 07:33 AM
I hope you guys tell Tim ways to improve the product as well. Tim already knows what I would like to have. I know he is open to hear your comments.

Absolutely, I have a number of ideas on the drawing board. Also I just received a real slam about the site from someone who just ordered. I greatly appreciated him notifying me of the problem.

Your website is awful. Please fix formatting problems and hire a technical writer to write useful product information.

I had actually thought that I had finally done a pretty good job and was fairly happy with it. If he only knew how many times I have modified it and tried to present the WW at least clearly enough so people understand the concept. It is amazing over the past few years how many super nice people have contacted me about the Web Site and suggested improvements. I listen and try to implement their suggestions if I can. So if you have any problems with the site or ideas how to improve it, please let me know.

Thanks so much,

Ed (Tim Tennis)

Aoya
10-03-2004, 02:10 PM
Maybe you could make precut Wonder Wedges for certain brands. The Head handles certainly are way different from Wilson..and perhaps the WW could be cut to match the Head, or expanded, to provide a snugly fit for the Wilson.

It'd also be convienent for the consumer...not having to worry about if it's the right fit.

Tim Tennis
10-03-2004, 03:26 PM
Aoya,

You are already thinking with me. Thanks. Even thought some of the brands do vary, some of the them are more rectanglear and some are fairly square, the WW can fit on any of them and still provide a great frame of reference and extra leverage and traction, but, but in the future the design could modified to some extent.

Thanks, Aoya

Ed

brtennis
10-04-2004, 01:57 PM
I tried Wonder Wedges on two of my racquets, Estusa PBB and Volkl Quantum 10. Both have handle size of 4 3/8. The WW is definitely too wide for Estusa. For Volkl, the WW fits quite well(though still a hair too large).

It would be nice if the WW is available in different sizes. Perhaps with the exception of Head's, the current product seems too wide for any raquets 4 1/4 or smaller.

The Estusa is my current racquet. To use WW, I may have to go back to my volkl.

eagle
10-04-2004, 02:44 PM
I'm waiting for the two I ordered last Saturday. I'm hoping they arrive tomorrow ... Ed? =)

I have a pair of Volkl Cat 4s size 4 1/2. I'll let you guys know how they fits and my impressions of it.

r,
eagle

Tim Tennis
10-04-2004, 03:45 PM
Hello Talk Tennis,

I tried Wonder Wedges on two of my racquets, Estusa PBB and Volkl Quantum 10. Both have handle size of 4 3/8. The WW is definitely too wide for Estusa. For Volkl, the WW fits quite well(though still a hair too large).


Yikes, I hope that is not the case. If you go back to the first comment the forum got on Fri., Oct 1 Actually I copied the E-mail he sent me and posted it for him, he also uses the Estusa PBB and did not mention any problem about the fit on bevel 3. I must admit that I have never tried to attach the WW to the Estusa PBB so I really can't say.

It would be nice if the WW is available in different sizes. Perhaps with the exception of Head's, the current product seems too wide for any raquets 4 1/4 or smaller.


I actually have mine attached to the Gamma, Diamond Fiber Racquets, 4 1/16 which I love and of course they don't make them anymore. I guess the only thing that I can say is that I have never had a comment about the WW not fitting on the racquet handle.

Again, it might be a good idea to make them in different sizes.

Appreciate your comments.

Ed

vin
10-04-2004, 04:19 PM
I play with the Volkl Tour 10 V-Engine Mid. It has the tour handle, or whatever you call the handle that is more narrow. The side bevel is just a bit wider than the wonder wedge, but I couldn't tell through the tape and overgrip. The side bevel of the racquet and the bevel of the wonder wedge felt like one big bevel.

Tim Tennis
10-04-2004, 05:30 PM
Hi Vin, good to hear from you.

The side bevel is just a bit wider than the wonder wedge, but I couldn't tell through the tape and overgrip. .

Good point about the tape and overwrap, I wish I would have thought of mentioning that in my reply to Talk Tennis.

The side bevel of the racquet and the bevel of the wonder wedge felt like one big bevel

That is the whole point. The Wonder Wedge increases the size of bevel 2 and bevel 4. This creates the distinctive shape which provides increased leverage and traction and makes it so easy to find and move from grip to grip.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Hit_Like_A_Pro/IMAG0001.JPG

Tim Tennis
10-04-2004, 05:44 PM
Eagle,

Your Wonder Wedge went out this morning since I received your order Saturday 1:02, the post office closes here at 12.00am. It usually takes 3 days, sometimes 2. So this will give you some time to do a bunch of sit-ups, Chin-ups (How many can you do? I can do 15 with leg weights, on a good day), squeeze those hand grips, run up and down a few hills like Andre', I want you to be ready because I want you to Grip and Rip. I want "results not excuses" :lol:

You got to love the game.

Bungalo Bill
10-04-2004, 05:46 PM
Eagle,

Your Wonder Wedge went out this morning since I received your order Saturday 1:02, the post office closes here at 12.00am. It usually takes 3 days, sometimes 2. So this will give you some time to do a bunch of sit-ups, Chin-ups (How many can you do? I can do 15 with leg weights, on a good day), squeeze those hand grips, run up and down a few hills like Andre', I want you to be ready because I want you to Grip and Rip. I want "results not excuses" :lol:

You got to love the game.

LOL, you havent changed a bit. Still doing those chinups? You know there are places they call "gyms" nowadays. :wink:

eagle
10-04-2004, 06:23 PM
Thanks Ed. Looking forward to trying them out.

I do treadmill time and jump rope. And a ton of crunches .... 3,075 .. 3,076. :)

r,
eagle

andirez
10-05-2004, 05:06 AM
Just got my Wonder Wedges today and am now deciding what the best way is to install them :D

I'm inclined to leave off the butt cap and build up a small elevation myself by using tape, I think that will feel more natural. Anyone tried this out yet?

Maybe an idea for a next version, add an "elastic butt cap" at the end of the wonder wedge that fits all racquets. What I mean by this is a ring at the end of the WW, which has the same thickness as the WW at the end and gradually becomes less thick just like a regular butt cap. Does not sound easy to manufacture though.

Tim Tennis
10-05-2004, 05:52 AM
Andirez

I'm inclined to leave off the butt cap and build up a small elevation myself by using tape, I think that will feel more natural. Anyone tried this out yet?

Fascinating idea, no one has told me that they have tried that yet. In the instructions, "to attach" I do recommend that you place a few extra wraps on the end. What this does is build up a slight triangular ridge. I think this is great for people that like to grasp the handle with the butt cap/end of the handle an inch above the wrist. This is ideal for the SW and W grip, see photo of SW grip. Notice how the Power -V- shape fits perfect right underneath the base of the thumb. My only concern would be that if you build it up too much the tape might unravel if you really torque the end of the handle. I hope you try it. Let us know.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/SemiWestern_po/IMAG0000.JPG




Maybe an idea for a next version, add an "elastic butt cap" at the end of the wonder wedge that fits all racquets. What I mean by this is a ring at the end of the WW, which has the same thickness as the WW at the end and gradually becomes less thick just like a regular butt cap.

Very interesting, creativity is the rearrangement of existing elements. ?????, why, why, why, could not the butt cap be better shaped to be more functional and fit the hand better? You got it. Thanks for thinking with me.

andirez
10-05-2004, 06:43 AM
Very interesting, creativity is the rearrangement of existing elements. ?????, why, why, why, could not the butt cap be better shaped to be more functional and fit the hand better? You got it. Thanks for thinking with me.

I'd love to see an updated butt cap, we take them for granted, but I'm sure there is room for improvement.

I am thinking now of cutting out the bevel 3 part of the butt cap so that the Wonder Wedge fits in the originating gap. I think that will give rise to a very smooth transition, especially after wrapping.

As for feedback on the size of the WW, it is slightly more wide than bevel 3 of my Pro Kennex 5G 4 3/8 (an estimated 1mm which is 0.04 inch) . However this won't cause a problem since the material is very soft and the wrapping will make the difference go away.

Tim Tennis
10-05-2004, 07:14 AM
Andirez,

I am thinking now of cutting out the bevel 3 part of the butt cap so that the Wonder Wedge fits in the originating gap. I think that will give rise to a very smooth transition, especially after wrapping.


Damn, I hope you work in a pro shop. You are really getting down to the nitty gritty. That is great. I hope you are doing all this for Justine? :roll: She will love you for it. If I get an order for 24 more WWs I will know you were. Yikes! I will have to go up in price and stop giving these things away. :D That is all it would take is one pro, Oh Baby!

You are obviously very analytical, thanks for sharing your ideas with all of us.

You got to love the game.

andirez
10-05-2004, 07:32 AM
Damn, I hope you work in a pro shop. You are really getting down to the nitty gritty. That is great. I hope you are doing all this for Justine? :roll: She will love you for it. If I get an order for 24 more WWs I will know you were. Yikes! I will have to go up in price and stop giving these things away. :D That is all it would take is one pro, Oh Baby!

LOL, I think you would be surprised how many people spend countless hours thinking of how they can improve their racquet. Just look at some of the post on this board, it is full of great ideas :) I don't work at a pro shop, but have a spare butt cap so I can try some things out. If it turns out as expected, I'll see that I can make some pictures for you.

I have to disappoint you, but sadly I don't know Justine or Kim personally. Yeah, a pro supporting the Wonder Wedge would indeed do wonders for your sales.

Tim Tennis
10-05-2004, 07:52 AM
LOL, I think you would be surprised how many people spend countless hours thinking of how they can improve their racquet. Just look at some of the post on this board, it is full of great ideas

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised, many times orders come in with notes telling me what they have tried to make the handle work for them. It is really kind of neat. There are a lot of nice people out there.

Speaking of nice people, I thought about Kim after I posted the post. I am glad you mentioned her.

andirez
10-05-2004, 11:11 AM
Okay, here is the story of installing my WW so far:

Please take note that you can easily attach the Wonder Wedge to your existing handle without having to do any butt cap modification. I just thought it was an interesting thing to do :)

http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/goods.jpg
These are "The goods". My Prokennex 5G, a Volkl butt cap and the Wonder wedge. If you are wondering what the white core inside the handle of the 5G is, well it is eraser gum. Haven't tested its effect yet but I have read some nice things about it on this forum. So instead of adding lead tape in the handle, I have added 1.8 inch of gum :)


Next step was cleaning the handle with a diluting and cleaning agent so that the WW sticks okay (no picture of this).


http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/ww_attached.jpg
The WW attached to the handle. The adhesive strip that came with it is actually quite good in securing the WW. I always find it difficult to make something stick to graphite.


http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/buttcap.jpg
I cut out bevel 3 of the butt cap so that the wonder wedge can fit in the originating space.


http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/ww_buttcap.jpg
The butt cap attached to the handle. Notice how the WW fits perfectly in the gap :) The butt cap is being held by double sided adhesive tape, the one that they use for securing carpets to floors. Works okay only if you clean the surface of the handle first. It will be even more secure after applying the final tape around the handle.


http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/silicone_applied.jpg
To make the transition between the WW and the butt cap even smoother, I added some silicone in between. It may not look so smooth on this picture, but I can assure you it is :)


The silicone is drying now and in a while I'll be ready to wind the tape that I ordered together with the WW around the handle. I'll add pictures of this later.

kreative
10-05-2004, 11:41 AM
wow andirez, what a nice tutorial! the pics are awesome.

andirez
10-05-2004, 12:55 PM
After applying the tape, the final handle looks like this (beautiful, isn't it? ;) ):

http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/final_1.jpg

http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/final_2.jpg


@Kreative:
Glad you like the tutorial :)

Tim Tennis
10-05-2004, 01:20 PM
Andirez,

What fantastic pictures. I can't wait to see the finished product. I should have gotten you to do the site for me. Wow, is right.

Are you that meticulous about your tennis game? The pictures should give people a good look at how the WW matches up with the number 3 bevel. The steps you took the pictures of are perfect, so well done.

My only fear is that people will think they have to go through all that to get the WW attached properly, which is not the case. I think the biggest draw back to having people try the WW is their fear of getting it attached. Most of them just don't want to deal with it. Don't take that as a criticism, what you have done shows great professionalism.

Thanks for the great photos. Man!

Ed

Tim Tennis
10-05-2004, 01:46 PM
Andirez,

Great job, I guess our posts overlapped. It looks like you attached it the full length which is fine. Some people do. Now put that overwrap on and go hit some tennis balls. After all that you better love it. If you are that analyitical and meticulous I can't wait to read what you have to say.

Yikes! How about some pictures of the various grips with a detailed explanation of the results and adjustments you made. You got to love it. :wink: We are going to use up all of TW's computer memory.

Ed

andirez
10-06-2004, 03:14 AM
What fantastic pictures. I can't wait to see the finished product. I should have gotten you to do the site for me. Wow, is right.

If you would like to use any of these pictures on your site, please do so! If you need the hi-res version of the pictures, just ask and I'll send them to you.

My only fear is that people will think they have to go through all that to get the WW attached properly, which is not the case. I think the biggest draw back to having people try the WW is their fear of getting it attached. Most of them just don't want to deal with it. Don't take that as a criticism, what you have done shows great professionalism.

I agree and that is why I just added the big red text at the top of my post. It is a piece of cake to attach the WW without doing any butt cap modification. The double sided sticking tape on it works perfectly and it is a finished product out of the box. On the other hand it might draw other people over the line who are worried how the WW will affect the way that the butt cap feels.

Thanks for the great photos. Man!

If you need one with a wrapped grip, just ask, I'll gladly take it for you. I did use a normal grip though and not an overgrip. Reason for this is that instead of my regular grip 4, I used a grip 3 (was originally heat shrink sleeved to a grip 4). The grip 3 + WW with a normal grip feels like a perfect match for my hand.

andirez
10-06-2004, 03:21 AM
Great job, I guess our posts overlapped. It looks like you attached it the full length which is fine. Some people do.

Indeed, I did. I found it a shame to cut it and it perfectly fits the length of my racquet handle :) I was wondering whether or not the cut WW would be better so that part of your hand can rest on the beveled end, but then I realised that my hand's position changes with every grip (for my serve my hand is much more towards the end of the handle for instance).

Now put that overwrap on and go hit some tennis balls. After all that you better love it. If you are that analyitical and meticulous I can't wait to read what you have to say.

Hope to do that this evening or at latest tomorrow evening, can't wait to try this out :)

Yikes! How about some pictures of the various grips with a detailed explanation of the results and adjustments you made. You got to love it. :wink: We are going to use up all of TW's computer memory.

Will see what I can do for you after a couple of hitting sessions. Must say that everything seems to feel right from the start. I was a bit afraid about my eastern forehand, but it just seems to fit even better than before (WW upwards, not downwards). The backhand grip feels amazing, what a difference. Curious to see how everything holds up in real match play :)

Tim Tennis
10-06-2004, 05:14 AM
Andirez.

If you would like to use any of these pictures on your site, please do so! If you need the hi-res version of the pictures, just ask and I'll send them to you.

Thank you for such a generous offer. I will certainly take you up on it. You have put my poor little Kodak DC3200 to shame, not to mention my capabilities.

I agree and that is why I just added the big red text at the top of my post. It is a piece of cake to attach the WW without doing any butt cap modification. The double sided sticking tape on it works perfectly and it is a finished product out of the box. On the other hand it might draw other people over the line who are worried how the WW will affect the way that the butt cap feels.


Thanks, and point well taken.

If you need one with a wrapped grip, just ask, I'll gladly take it for you. I did use a normal grip though and not an overgrip. Reason for this is that instead of my regular grip 4, I used a grip 3 (was originally heat shrink sleeved to a grip 4). The grip 3 + WW with a normal grip feels like a perfect match for my hand.

I would absolutely love a photo of the handle with an overgrip, the reason being is that most people do not modify the handle like you do and if they reattach the grip their racquet came with, more then likely it will make the grip too large for them.

Must say that everything seems to feel right from the start. I was a bit afraid about my eastern forehand, but it just seems to fit even better than before (WW upwards, not downwards). The backhand grip feels amazing, what a difference. Curious to see how everything holds up in real match play

Photo below, is that what you mean by upwards. The picture is from the site, "Alternative Eastern Forehand" For all you die hard Eastern forehand players, notice how the fingers latch around the WW for fantastic leverage and traction. By altering your swing path you can create the same tremendous spin and action that the SW and W grips do.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Alt_eastern_fo/IMAG0000.JPG

Andirez, thanks for taking such an interest.

andirez
10-06-2004, 05:31 AM
Photo below, is that what you mean by upwards. The picture is from the site, "Alternative Eastern Forehand" For all you die hard Eastern forehand players, notice how the fingers latch around the WW for fantastic leverage and traction. By altering your swing path you can create the same tremendous spin and action that the SW and W grips do.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Alt_eastern_fo/IMAG0000.JPG


Actually I don't mean the "Alternative Eastern Forehand", the other one felt more natural to me (with upwards I meant facing the palm of your hand) . I'll sure try both on court, I am curious to feel the difference, but for now I'll be going with the "regular" one.

When I get back home this evening, I'll upload the hi-res pictures for you on my web space so you can download them (they will be a bit too large for mailing I'm afraid). I'll add a couple with grip as well :)

PS. What exactly are chin-ups?

Tim Tennis
10-06-2004, 06:15 AM
Fantastic, can't wait to get the pictures and upgrade the site.

Chin-ups / Pull-ups, that is where you hang from a bar and pull your chin over the top. You can do it with the palms of your hands facing out or in. I generally do it with my palms facing out and vary hand positions on the bar. As BB pointed out to me, one way should be referred to as Chin- ups and the other should be referred to as Pull-ups. The guy knows something about everything. I think it is a great exercise for serious tennis players.

Do practice and experiment, you will find out just how well you understand your own mechanics and the relationship between, swing path. contact point and racquet head angle/grip. I know if 3.5 to 4.5 players can do it, surly 6.0 players can.

Ed

andirez
10-06-2004, 10:40 AM
Fantastic, can't wait to get the pictures and upgrade the site.

I'm uploading them right now, I'll send you an e-mail with the link once it has been uploaded.

Chin-ups / Pull-ups, that is where you hang from a bar and pull your chin over the top. You can do it with the palms of your hands facing out or in. I generally do it with my palms facing out and vary hand positions on the bar. As BB pointed out to me, one way should be referred to as Chin- ups and the other should be referred to as Pull-ups. The guy knows something about everything. I think it is a great exercise for serious tennis players.

Ah, I am already doing something similar when working out :)


Last but not least two pictures of the gripped handle:
http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/grip_attached_1.jpg

http://home.planetinternet.be/~cjoxx/ww/grip_attached_2.jpg

mattm
10-06-2004, 11:48 AM
All this seems very interesting, but one thing seems ambiguous in all that I have been reading about the WW: is it meant as a training device to help learn grips, or is it meant as fundamental redesign of racket handle geometry that should/is used by players throughout their tennis careers? Another way of asking this question is: does BB use this modification on his own rackets or is this something that he is suggesting for beginning and intermediate students struggling to find/utilize grips?

Thanks

Tim Tennis
10-06-2004, 07:49 PM
Hi Mattn,

Love your question and welcome the opportunity to answer it. I will break your question up into two parts and answer in reverse order.

is it meant as fundamental redesign of racket handle geometry that should/is used by players throughout their tennis careers?

It is meant as a fundamental redesign of racket handle geometry that should/is used by players throughout their tennis careers.

Mattn, by changing the position of the first two words in your question you have summarized perfectly the whole concept of the Wonder Wedge. The shape of the tennis racquet is obsolete and basically non functional to meet the demands of today's power game and multiple grip changes required to excel. I know your come back is, how come Roger, Andy, Gullerimo, Carlos, Tim, Andre, Justine, Amelie, Lindsay, Kim, Elena, Jennifer, Maria, etc. have achieved such a level of excellence? The answer is these players have reached this fantastic level of play, Not Because Of The Shape Of The Tennis Racquet Handle But In Spite Of It. It can be so much better. Just think of all those tennis players that don't have hours and hours to practice and drill, to get the grip changes and swing paths on autopilot. Could the WW help the higher level players? Absolutely, it adds leverage, traction and functionality to the racquet handle that is just not there with the standard shape. Talking about higher level players, it is very interesting. Most of them will see and feel right off some of the advantages of the WW but what they will do is try to look for some aspect of their game that they think they may have some problem with. So instead of trying to understand what is happening and take their whole game to a higher level, they now have an excuse. Fear of change can be a terrible thing. On the other hand some of the 3.0, 3.5, 4.0, 4.5, 5.0 players will hit with the WW and greatly improve some aspect of their game and yet may still have some problems adapting it to other areas of their game. Yet, they will persist because they are so excited about the improvements they have made. When they finally master the other strokes they are elated and will send me this fantastic testimonial. Go to the site and read them.

is it meant as a training device to help learn grips?

No, absolutely not. It just turned out that way. The distinctive frame of reference it provides makes it easy to teach learn and use all the grips. I get asked that question a lot. When you use the term training device you automatically think of training wheels on a bicycle which you take off when you learn to ride safely. The Wonder Wedge is different. Why in the world would you ever stop using it or want to take it off your racquet handle when it makes finding and using all the grips so quick and easy, adds much needed leverage and traction to the obsolete design, transfers more energy and power to the ball.

Another way of asking this question is: does BB use this modification on his own rackets or is this something that he is suggesting for beginning and intermediate students struggling to find/utilize grips?


Why do I detect a lot of cynicism in this post? Oh well, what the hell. Bungalo Bill has received a number of Wonder Wedges in the past. He has extensively played with and tested the WW. We have had numerous discussions about the results he has had. BB has made some very good recommendations for some slight changes he would like to see in the design. In fact these are on the way to him now for him to test. If you read his posts on this thread you will see that he requests imput from the members of this forum about any design improvements. Does he play with the WW now. I don't think so. I know that he strongly supports, and understands the benefits that the beginning and intermediate player will derive from the Wonder Wedge. His design modifications are more geared to attracting the upper echelon players making it easier for them to make the transition. I like to think about it like training wheels in reverse. BB and I don't always agree but I would be a fool not to listen to him. That's about all I can say on that.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
10-06-2004, 08:19 PM
Andirez,

You have created a master piece. Thank you so much for the effort. I am sure I will be able to use some of them on the site. Let me know specifically how you would like me to give you credit for you photos.

Ed

Bungalo Bill
10-06-2004, 08:34 PM
All this seems very interesting, but one thing seems ambiguous in all that I have been reading about the WW: is it meant as a training device to help learn grips, or is it meant as fundamental redesign of racket handle geometry that should/is used by players throughout their tennis careers? Another way of asking this question is: does BB use this modification on his own rackets or is this something that he is suggesting for beginning and intermediate students struggling to find/utilize grips?

Thanks

I dont think the WW is about "finding' the right grips although that is a plus. I believe the product is about leverage. The more leverage you can get out of something the more power and control you can apply to the purpose.

With that said, I have used the current WW product and I immediately saw the benefit it can give a player. Yes, I highly recommend it to beginners and intermediate players. It is a product that I believe everyone should try and I would not say this if it was expensive. It is only $10 and with anything in tennis you never know what will help you.

Tennis is an individual sport in many respects including the equipment we choose to use. I have asked Tim to make some modifications for my own personal use. He is sending me some "models" of those changes in the mail as we speak.

The reason I asked for you guys to provide feedback (if you end up purchasing it) is because I knew the product wouldnt "break" anyones bank. I also felt that this forum was the best place to provide feedback to Tim on how to improve the product if necessary.

As Tim said, I wanted to see certain things and maybe we will see some different models, I dont know that is up to Tim. But I will be experiementing with the different molds to find what works more for "advanced players".

But dont get me wrong there are advanced players using the current product and they are fine with it. I am sort of picky I guess and Tim was kind enough to develop a couple molds for me to settle on.

I am planning to do something with my handle now that I know the USTA accepts the change in tournaments. I think these next few molds will do the trick and will be what I am looking for. The reason I like the WW is because of the extra torque you can apply to the ball and the hand strength you can apply to the handle that help handle off center shots, etc.

A solid grip and a wieghted racquet mean only one thing to me - enjoyment!

Also, please know I dont make a dime off of this. I dont make a dime off of anything I do on this board. It is free advice and my recommendations are free.

andirez
10-07-2004, 12:52 AM
Andirez,

You have created a master piece. Thank you so much for the effort. I am sure I will be able to use some of them on the site. Let me know specifically how you would like me to give you credit for you photos.

Ed


You're welcome Ed :) There is no need to give me credit, just use the photos as you like :)

mattm
10-07-2004, 07:06 PM
Bill and Ed thanks for your extremely thoughtful responses to my question. I am sorry that you read cynicism in my question, really I was just trying to be as direct as possible. The concept of the WW makes a lot of intuitive sense to me, but I was wondering whether, like the training wheel example, it was something that would limit improvement at a certain point. But, like Bill says, it's not going to break the bank, so I guess it's time to order one and see what I think. Again, thanks for taking the time answer my questions.

best,
matt

Tim Tennis
10-08-2004, 05:59 AM
I am sorry that you read cynicism in my question, really I was just trying to be as direct as possible

Matt, I don't blame you at all, hell I am the most cynical person in the world. I am sure that 90% of the people that come across the WW are cynical about it. I don' blame them. It is a scary concept to a lot of tennis people. My apologies for even mentioning it. I should be used to it by now. That is why I love all the questions. It gives me a chance to explain the concept better and maybe remove or ease some of their concerns.

but I was wondering whether, like the training wheel example, it was something that would limit improvement at a certain point.

I have actually toyed with the idea of having a home page that said, The Wonder Wedge will only improve those parts of your game that the hand plays an important roll in, think about it.
As we get closer and closer to reaching our true potential in any one aspect of our game, the harder and harder it becomes to make any significant improvements. As far as recreational players the realistic range of improvement is tremendous. I would say that most of them, on a scale of 1 to 10 are on a level 4 or 5. They have no where to go but up. Of course their is the factor that most of them don't care, they are very happy where they are now and having fun, some would really like to improve but just don't have the time. On the professional level these guys are around 9 or they would not even be there. There I go, charging off into the sunset. How do I answer that question? No, there is no limit to the improvements that you can make in any aspect of your game. The Wonder Wedge is not just a training tool. It greatly improves the functionality of the tennis racquet handle.

You got to love the game.

Bungalo Bill
10-08-2004, 09:43 AM
Bill and Ed thanks for your extremely thoughtful responses to my question. I am sorry that you read cynicism in my question, really I was just trying to be as direct as possible. The concept of the WW makes a lot of intuitive sense to me, but I was wondering whether, like the training wheel example, it was something that would limit improvement at a certain point. But, like Bill says, it's not going to break the bank, so I guess it's time to order one and see what I think. Again, thanks for taking the time answer my questions.

best,
matt

I didnt take your response like that Matt. I thought it was an honest question.

I liked the WW a lot and saw bigtime potential I also scratched my head and wondered why racquet manufacturers havent thought of this as an accessory. I think if it was something that had the label "Wilson" on it we would probably not question it and just buy it to try it after all the hype Wilson would have done for it.

But Tim Tennis invented something very interesting. When I saw and felt the potential I started to tinker with it and I accidently cut mine to much. So I asked Tim if it was possible to get a mold that I wanted to test and that is what we are doing now.

I must warn you, the hand has a lot of sensory points on it and it takes time to get used to it. But you should feel the increase in spin potential right off the bat from the leverage you get. You should also feel a solid grip on the racquet and less twisting on the frame as well. It is a very interesting development in tennis.

papa
10-08-2004, 02:14 PM
I don't want it to sound like I'm questioning anyone about the value of the WW - I've never tried it but I have suggested it to many people including wheel chair athletes.

First question: Was the WW specifically approved by the USTA or do the "rules" not cover handle modifications as long as: A. there are no batteries, B. there are no moving parts, C. that it is permanently attached, etc.? Maybe the answer is yes for both.

Second question: Can the handle of the racquet (any racquet) or the WW be modified to include notches for fingers?

I've wondered about this because in golf and many other sports you cannot notch a handle to specifically fit ones hands - at least this is my understanding.

eagle
10-08-2004, 02:22 PM
Hi,

I've played with folks before where they have all sorts of finger memory devices on their racquets and these guys play USTA tourneys all the time.

r,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-08-2004, 07:11 PM
I don't want it to sound like I'm questioning anyone about the value of the WW - I've never tried it but I have suggested it to many people including wheel chair athletes.

First question: Was the WW specifically approved by the USTA or do the "rules" not cover handle modifications as long as: A. there are no batteries, B. there are no moving parts, C. that it is permanently attached, etc.? Maybe the answer is yes for both.

Second question: Can the handle of the racquet (any racquet) or the WW be modified to include notches for fingers?

I've wondered about this because in golf and many other sports you cannot notch a handle to specifically fit ones hands - at least this is my understanding.

What needs to happen is since the tennis rules can be vague as to what does "altering a racquet" mean, an example must be sent to the USTA to decipher what the intent of the rule is and how it applies to things that are invented or developed that alter a tennis racquet.

I believe either Tim Tennis sent the product to the USTA for rule intepretation or the USTA simply sent Tim a letter approving its use.

Either way, I believe Tim had enough foresight to see that players who order the product would also need that USTA letter approving product for torunament play in case a Tournament Director ever questioned it. I am sure this "questioning" would be more important at higher levels of play and open levels that are played for money.

I hope Tim responds to your concern.

papa
10-09-2004, 07:02 AM
Thanks BB - thought it would be something like that and looking forward the response from Tim Tennis. I just want everyone to know that I am not questioning the value of the WW in any way.

Eagle wrote:

"I've played with folks before where they have all sorts of finger memory devices on their racquets and these guys play USTA tourneys all the time."

Such as? I've seen some who might use some tape on the handle and others that build up the butt with tape but have you actually seen other things/devices?

eagle
10-09-2004, 08:09 AM
Hi papa,

That's what I meant by things/devices: build up of tape or some other material on various places on the grip for better leverage, power, or grip position.

r,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-09-2004, 10:14 AM
Thanks BB - thought it would be something like that and looking forward the response from Tim Tennis. I just want everyone to know that I am not questioning the value of the WW in any way.

Eagle wrote:

"I've played with folks before where they have all sorts of finger memory devices on their racquets and these guys play USTA tourneys all the time."

Such as? I've seen some who might use some tape on the handle and others that build up the butt with tape but have you actually seen other things/devices?


Papa, I did not think you were questioning the WW at all. I thought your question was a good one.

Tim Tennis
10-09-2004, 10:18 AM
You got to love it.

Quick story, when I first came out with the Wonder Wedge, the club pro came out and said, "Ed, the Wonder Wedges may not be legal." This was after I made the first production run. I about had a heart attack. I contacted the USTA and they referred me to Stan Malless, Chairman of the USTA Technical Committee, super nice guy. He was not sure if it was legal or not so he told me he was going to a meeting of the ITF in London and would present it to them to get a ruling. To make a long story short they did approve it. Stan sent me a nice letter letting me know that it had been approved which I send out with each order.

I put the sentence that specifically approves the WW on this page, if you would like to check it out. It is towards the bottom.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Grips_tennis.htm

I believe Tim had enough foresight to see that players who order the product would also need that USTA letter approving product for torunament play in case a Tournament Director ever questioned it. I am sure this "questioning" would be more important at higher levels of play and open levels that are played for money.

Quick story related to BB's comment. A few years back I got this neat E-mail from a WW user who said his team was playing in USTA competition, apparently he was just ripping the ball and generating all kinds of topspin. His opponents found out about the WW attached to his racquet handle and tried to get him disqualified. He said he kept the letter in his tennis bag and showed it to the director. The director said, Well I guess it is legal. So don't lose that letter. A lot ot teaching pros don't think it is legal, so that is another reason why I send out the letter.

Good question.

Thanks guys.

papa
10-10-2004, 07:09 AM
eagle wrote:

"That's what I meant by things/devices: build up of tape or some other material on various places on the grip for better leverage, power, or grip position. "

Well, tape is generally accepted in all sports with perhaps the exception of professional baseball where tape is not allowed - to the best of my knowledge anyway. Its used extensively on hockey sticks.

I was talking about modifications to the handle like notching, shaving, changing angles/materials, etc.

eagle
10-10-2004, 08:19 AM
A nod on ice hockey. I load up my hockey stick with tape.

r,
eagle

Tim Tennis
10-11-2004, 02:52 PM
Hi guys, Well I added the photos to the site that Andirez so graciously said we could use. It will answer a very common question about attaching the Wonder Wedge full length and they were a big help.

Thanks again Andirez, the photos are super.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Super_grip.htm

hobo tennis
10-13-2004, 06:32 PM
Hey guys,

Didn't really wanna bring back a dead topic but I might as well.

The WW is an excellent tool for helping players utilize correct grips. While myself have not had such luck with the WW attached, when I switched to another racket my grip was consistent and produced magnificent results.

Just for people that are wondering, I put it on Bevel 3 for a Semi-Western grip on a Hyper Pro Staff 7.6 (98"). Then I switched to a smaller Pro Kennex Black Ace 98 (Actually 85") and had success with my groundstrokes.

And for those that are discouraged at first usage, the WW *does* feel extremely awkward at first but its just cause we're not used to be so good :P

-K. Nguyen

EDIT: Forgot to mention Ed is a great guy. Forgot to order a roll of tape and he even put it in there for me for free! Now don't everybody start ordering without tape but consider a good product coming from a great guy!

Bungalo Bill
10-23-2004, 03:14 PM
Tim,

Wow, wow, wow. All I can say hitting forehands was absolutely great! I put on the WW's from the package you sent me. My partner was wondering why all of a sudden I was getting so much kick on the ball from my forehands. He didnt notice any change in my stroke - but I didnt tell him! I told him I just "figured out" something. :)

I also tried it for the twohander and the onehander and I got inconsistent results with the onehander feeling most comfortable out of the two - especially on fast exchanges. I believe it is simply that my hands and brain are not used to finding the feel during the grip change and I just simply need to get used to the different feel of the handle.

My spin serves, forehand, and forehand volley were producing very good results right away. My 1st serve, backhand volley, and backhand (both 1hdr and 2hdr) had some consistency problems - little awkward feeling.

So, I will continue to use the WW until it is second nature on the backhand side and 1st serve. Can't wait to get used to it! Good job Tim!!!

Tim Tennis
10-23-2004, 08:26 PM
Bungalo Bill,

I believe it is simply that my hands and brain are not used to finding the feel during the grip change and I just simply need to get used to the different feel of the handle.


As usual, so well said. For some grip changes the hands and the brain say, oh yeah, that feels good I understand that. For some grip changes the hands and the brain say, what the hell is this? It is very interesting because I get responses all over the board. Some people say they hit with the Wonder Wedge for an hour and were rocking and rolling on their forehand, backhand, serve and volleys in no time. Some say they were ripping their forehand and but could not hit a backhand to save their lives. Some say they hit the best backhands ever but could not hit their forehand. Here is a Tim Tennis truism: If your swing path is the same and your racquet head speed is the same, and your contact point is the same but the results are different then what you would normally expect or hope for then, the only variable is the racquet head angle at the point of contact has changed as a result of the Wonder Wedge fitting differently in your hand, which has caused you to either open or close your racquet face to some extent.

Which goes back to what you said above, "my hands and brain are not used to finding the feel during the grip change and I just simply need to get used to the different feel of the handle". The hands and brain just have to get used to the new feel.

Another Tim Tennis truism: You can duplicate exactly the same racquet head angle with the Wonder Wedge attached as you can with any other shaped handle. To adjust is just a matter of getting use to the new feel. Master it, don't quit.

I know, so the non believers are now saying so what. :evil: Why bother? As I say in the letter I send out with every order,
Master the new points of leverage and traction and greatly improve your game. The standard shaped handle just does not have the leverage, traction, and frame of reference that the Wonder Wedge provides.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Wonder_Wedge_W/IMAG0001.JPG

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/

You got to love the game.

Bungalo Bill
10-23-2004, 11:51 PM
Yeah I hear you and it is true. It wasnt that I couldnt hit the backhand, it was during certain exchanges when I went on automatic mode that my brain said, "wait a second, what the hell is this!" Then I suddenly started thinking too much about the position of my racquet face angle and felt like I was in the days of learning the stroke! Some balls I pounded and others went long.

The forehand on the other hand was just a dream. It just takes time. But like you said, if it can happen on the forehand, it can happen on the backhand.

vin
10-24-2004, 12:00 PM
BB, are you going to reveal the modifications that were done to the wonder wedge you are using?

Bungalo Bill
10-24-2004, 08:43 PM
BB, are you going to reveal the modifications that were done to the wonder wedge you are using?

I use a modified or an older version of the WW. It is not as pronounced. It is thinner in the raise of the bevel. I might even like it thinner if I could influence TT to take a second look at considering it. :)

Once I get used to it, I will switch it to the "normal" version. I have to hit more balls with it to get all the strokes to feel good.

andfor
10-26-2004, 09:23 AM
After reading all the comments on this thread I just ordered two. One for me and one for my son. I'll let you know how it goes when I get to use them.

Tim, have you ever thought about setting up a booth at the ATP and WTA Tour stop that comes through Memphis in February held at the Racquet Club of Memphis? It may be a good place for additional exposure.......just a thought.

Andy

papa
10-26-2004, 10:34 AM
Well, you guys have me thinking again (you can probably see the smoke). The question is, as raised before, exactly what modifications can be made to the WW to keep it legal or are all modification ok? For example, can it be notched for finger placement, etc?

Tim Tennis
10-26-2004, 11:36 AM
Hi Andy,

Oh baby, would I love to open up a booth, or maybe share one with someone. That would be great. That has been mentioned to me a few times before. The problem is it would be cost prohibitive for me. Just think if I could get two or three pros to try it out on the practice courts, or maybe just get one to realize,damn this thing really works and start using the WW. Oh Baby!

Now if I had Bungalo Bill in the booth signing his TW Book, Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Tennis But Were Afraid To Ask, now I would probably be able to pay for the booth 10 times over. All kidding aside a booth is something to consider if I could afford to pull it off.

andfor
10-26-2004, 12:03 PM
I'll check into it and send you an e-mail with the details. If it works out for great. If not maybe next year.

Have you had any luck with top juniors using the WW? Hey, Ashley Harkelroad (sp?) is from your area, right? Her game needs some help. Maybe you could get her to try it.

Best of luck to you and the Wonder Wedge,

Andy

Tim Tennis
10-26-2004, 12:17 PM
Damn Papa, we don't pay you to think. :P Just kidding, I love the questions. My apologies for not answering if for you before. :cry:

The question is, as raised before, exactly what modifications can be made to the WW to keep it legal or are all modification ok? For example, can it be notched for finger placement, etc?

Your question is a valid one not just concerning the WW but any handle modifications. When you asked before, I tried to go to the USTA web site and reread the rules of tennis. For some reason the document did not come up. So I will try to answer your question as best I can from my recollection of what I read in the past. From what I remember in general, you are allowed to modify the racquet handle for the purpose of, or to improve leverage, traction and for shock absorption. If you apply this to the WW, it does all three things. That is why it was approved for play. It improves leverage, traction and provides great shock absorption. I would think any modification made to the WW would still be covered as improving the leverage, traction or both.

Your specific question above, "Can it be notched for finger placement, etc?" Even though you may notch it strickly for a reference point to find a particular grip, you could certainly argue it was done to improve the leverage and traction.

You are not allowed to add any mechanical device, springs, whatever.

Professionals in the past made some extreme modifications to the racquet handle. Rod Laver is a classic example. I am sure that a lot of professionals today make a lot of changes too.

In summary I just cannot imagine the USTA or the ITF examining the racquet handles to make sure they meet any exact specifications and to make sure no modifications have been made. That would open up Pandoras box. I think that the game of golf is crazy for not letting the handle shape be modified to enable all levels to play better. Hell in tennis you can even use a two handled racquet. I have actually seen a guy play with it. He was pretty darn good.

Papa, thanks for the question, I hope I answered it better this time.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
10-26-2004, 12:21 PM
Andy,

Fantastic.

Thanks

Tim Tennis
10-26-2004, 02:00 PM
Hi Andy,

Have you had any luck with top juniors using the WW? Hey, Ashley Harkelroad (sp?) is from your area, right? Her game needs some help. Maybe you could get her to try it.


Well Andy, I know a very good junior in San Antonio, TX is using it and loves it. I even sent him a Tennis Geometrics T-Shirt, his dad says he wears it all the time. I do send some large orders to Florida, 6, 8, 12 WWs. I think it is getting out there surely but slowly. Actually Ashley Harkelroad is supposed to be a teaching pro at the Manker Patten tennis club in Chattanooga, TN at this time. That is where I played in the State Closed and tore my hamstring. I was actually hoping to see her there. I would love for her to try it. These young kids are soooo good.

There does seem to be a lot of activity going on not just here but internationally. Who knows maybe the word is finally getting out.

I have to be careful, sometimes you get what you wish for. I could easily be over whelmed.

You got to love the game.

papa
10-26-2004, 04:26 PM
Thanks TT, that does answer my question - fair and straight forward - thanks. Hope you sell a million of the WW.

Yeah, know what you mean about the thinking thing. Think (HOPE) I'm a little better out on the courts than here but I've enjoyed the "chatter" of all you guys. Good stuff most of the time.

eagle
10-27-2004, 07:45 AM
Hi,

I've played with the wedge a number of times and have gotten good results. My fore and back have improved. It didn't affect my volley only because I'm a baseliner and rarely go to the net. :)

My serve has gone south though. :( I'm hoping a few sessions with a hopper will allow me to fix that.

But overall, it has helped my strokes.

Pictures and more on my feedback at my site (http://www.keohi.com/tennis/wonderwedge/index.htm).

Thanks,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2004, 10:01 AM
Hi,

I've played with the wedge a number of times and have gotten good results. My fore and back have improved. It didn't affect my volley only because I'm a baseliner and rarely go to the net. :)

My serve has gone south though. :( I'm hoping a few sessions with a hopper will allow me to fix that.

But overall, it has helped my strokes.

Pictures and more on my feedback at my site (http://www.keohi.com/tennis/wonderwedge/index.htm).

Thanks,
eagle

It will. Just go out and hit balls and it will happen. One thing the WW does which I think is great is it KEEPS you in the right grip. Many players dont know that they are slightly changing the grip with their fingers during the swing.

Tim Tennis
10-27-2004, 10:13 AM
Eagle,

Thanks for the feedback. Talk to me, talk to me. Give me some information and I can tell you exactly what is causing it and how to correct it, plus give you a few suggestions. The serve, while it can be very difficult for a lot of people, should be one of the easiest strokes to improve and upgrade on your own. Why? Because you can practice, experiment, analyze the results and make adjusts. You can practice by yourself, all you have to do is toss the ball up but if you do not understand what is going on you will just be spinning your wheels. Share some information with me, I would love to work with you and see if we can come up with the cause and the solution. Maybe BB could share some of his wisdom with us.

Grip pre Wonder Wedge?
Grip with Wonder Wedge?
Range of motion (short, moderate, full, any hitches,)
Shoulder turn? ( little or none, moderate, very good strong )
Legs, knees, use of? ( little, moderate, strong good )
Results pre Wonder Wedge? (spin, flat, high %/ low% in, errors in the past where they usually long or short.)
Results with the Wonder Wedge? (Long or in the net)
How would you rate yourself? (beginner, intermediate, advanced)

We can do it on the forum or you can call 423-336-3953 or E-mail me. The last thing I would ever want to do is embarrass you or put you on the spot.

Anyone else that tried out the WW, please let me know if you are having any problems with any of your strokes. If you can give me some basic information similar to the above maybe I can help you out, maybe I can't, but I would love to give it my best shot.

You got to love the game.

eagle
10-27-2004, 10:42 AM
Hi Tim Tennis,

Let's see ....

* Continental grip, pre and inter wedge.
* Moderate to full swing
* Moderate shoulder turn
* Legs - bend down and jump up to the the ball
* Results Pre wedge - mostly flat; short errors normally into the tape; long errors normally in no man's land
* Results with wedge - ball more into the net than long - I know that I need to toss the ball higher.
* I'm an intermediate (3.5). I play at least twice a week. I prefer singles than doubles.

What's different now is that I can't seem to control the depth and direction of the ball. I'm just not comfortable yet with the altered grip. I just didn't think it'd affect my serve this much.

I need to get the hopper and hit a few buckets. I'll figure it out. :)

Thanks,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2004, 11:50 AM
Eagle,

Thanks for the feedback. Talk to me, talk to me. Give me some information and I can tell you exactly what is causing it and how to correct it, plus give you a few suggestions. The serve, while it can be very difficult for a lot of people, should be one of the easiest strokes to improve and upgrade on your own. Why? Because you can practice, experiment, analyze the results and make adjusts. You can practice by yourself, all you have to do is toss the ball up but if you do not understand what is going on you will just be spinning your wheels. Share some information with me, I would love to work with you and see if we can come up with the cause and the solution. Maybe BB could share some of his wisdom with us.

Grip pre Wonder Wedge?
Grip with Wonder Wedge?
Range of motion (short, moderate, full, any hitches,)
Shoulder turn? ( little or none, moderate, very good strong )
Legs, knees, use of? ( little, moderate, strong good )
Results pre Wonder Wedge? (spin, flat, high %/ low% in, errors in the past where they usually long or short.)
Results with the Wonder Wedge? (Long or in the net)
How would you rate yourself? (beginner, intermediate, advanced)

We can do it on the forum or you can call 423-336-3953 or E-mail me. The last thing I would ever want to do is embarrass you or put you on the spot.

Anyone else that tried out the WW, please let me know if you are having any problems with any of your strokes. If you can give me some basic information similar to the above maybe I can help you out, maybe I can't, but I would love to give it my best shot.

You got to love the game.

There are a lot of sensors in the fingers and the hand. This is something I learned from my son who is deaf. He has to go to special classes to handle the build up of sensory input in his body. The physical therapists have him touch sand and play with it. Roll clay, or other things to get a lot of the sensory input out of his system.

This insight transfer to the handle and a tennis player. Whenever you change something especially with your hands, it will require some time to get used to. You cant avoid this.

For me, my grip was inbetween a Eastern and a SW. Going to a "real" SW grip caused a feeling of awkwardness. This is very normal. It is also something you need to breakthrough and you will if you practice.

The other night I was invited to play doubles with a group of 5.0 players. I started out using the WW to hit. Although my forehand felt good, during the quick exchanges at the net, I did not feel at home. Many times I got caught fumbling around for something familiar with my grip. Even though I was in my correct grip it still felt different! When I am in this mode, the other sensory information (eyes, ears, etc.) shuts down or temporarily pauses. It is during this pause that errors are made. When I feel comfortable, my other senses are freed to focus on the task at hand - hit the ball. So practice is what gets a certain sense to become "normal" to balance the focus of the brain.

My serve suffered as well. My out wide serve was really going out wide. I generate a lot of torque and racquet head speed on my second serve. However, at times I would mis-hit the ball on the frame because of the slightly different position of my hand which transferred on down to my confidence. The WW is not the problem. It is my understanding of it related to my swing, timing, and confidence. When I did hit the ball, I noticed more spin - so it is there, it just needs to be practiced.

My sensory input simply needs to be reprogrammed. That is all it is. I need to hit more balls with it and not just wait for a match to get the feel. That is the wrong way to go about it. It takes time.

The WW does not change the handle dramatically, but it does change the sensory input. It forces the hand to stay in a consistent position which for some might cause sensory input fear.

So keep practicing with it and you will get used to it.

eagle
10-27-2004, 11:59 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself.

I liken the process to my switch from eastern to semiwestern fore and continental backhand to eastern a while back. Took some time to readjust but practice made that a non-issue eventually.

Need to get the hopper out. :)

r,
eagle

Tim Tennis
10-27-2004, 12:43 PM
Eagle,

Thanks for the great information. Here is my take for what it's worth.

Continental same as before, good. That usually makes things a lot easier.

Moderate swing and moderate shoulder turn OK.

Legs, jump up to the ball, what is this? It sounds a little awkward. Maybe that is just the way you expressed it. If you come off the ground it is OK but it should be the result of using your legs and a function of the follow through. I don't think you will see many 3.5 players actually come off the ground on their serves to any extent. I hope you are not actually jumping up in order to make contact with the ball.

Pre WW Continental grip, hitting a flat serve, something is wrong there. You should be hitting with some degree of spin. At the 3.5 skill level hitting the ball flat will cause you to hit the ball in the net a lot and to hit it long. The margin for error is so small especially if you are managing to generate any degree of pace.

Results With the Wonder Wedge. Now we are getting somewhere. More into the net them long. That is exactly what I would have expected. The WW may cause you to close your racquet face slightly more then before and the extra leverage and traction will cause you to impart more energy to the ball thus creating more draw. As a result most people who use the Continental grip on their serves will draw the ball into the net. The solution for these people is simple, generate more horizontal/ forward energy by whatever means, power up and out, think deep. In your case since you did not hit with much spin before, the problem is primarily that your racquet face as probably closed to some extent. Toss the ball higher? I would actually have to see your mechanics.

Summary: Your service motion is probably a lot more restricted then you realize. Since you are not generating any spin or draw with the Continental grip your shoulder rotation is probably more parallel / level with the court.

Recommendations: Take another look at your motion. Is my ball toss shoulder higher then my racquet shoulder at least to some degree when I release the ball? Are my shoulders turned, at least to some extent towards the point where they create a 90 degree angle with the baseline? They should be. Combining the two along with the use of your legs, (Gosh, I hope you are not jumping up to hit the ball), should give you the ability to create a swing path more along the lines of low to high. I have no idea about your ball toss but to hit with some degree of spin the racquet needs to continue its upward and outward path after the point of contact.

Tip: Practice and experiment by being completely non judgemental. Try to hit the ball deep, don't worry about getting it in the service box. Pay attention to the draw and action you get and correlate this to the swing speed, swing path, and grip you used. Hit out with smooth but controlled power. The only bad thing that you can do is hit the ball in the net.

Eagle you have been a good sport and I appreciate it. I hope I have not confused you with all this. I am no Bungalo Bill when it comes to explaining things, but hell, who is?

BB feel free to correct any misstatements that I may have made.

You got to love the game.

eagle
10-27-2004, 01:50 PM
Hi Tim Tennis,

No, problem. That's why I come here ... to learn. Even if I'm a Federer or a Roddick, I'd probably still come here. :) Anyway, I run a number of message boards unrelated to tennis and know that folks also visit them for the same reason ... to learn and to share.

At any rate, it is a little hard to describe one's technique with words alone. Sometimes you tend to abbreviate them in the interest of time. Anyway, the "jump" to the ball is not a forced kick up motion. It feels like a jump since I extend my arm/racquet to the ball with the forward momentum carrying me into the court like how serve and volley players serve.

I can generate different spins effectively with my serve. That's not a problem. I just tend to hit more flat serves as a personal preference. Maybe because that's what I've always used from day one and then learned spin as an afterthought. :)

Anyway, I'll take everyone's suggestions and put them to use.

Just need to get used to the altered handle and hit more practice serves.

Thanks.

r,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-27-2004, 01:59 PM
Yes the forward and upward motion will "pull up" your legs from the ground.

Tim Tennis
10-28-2004, 05:06 AM
Eagle,

Holly cow, has anyone had time to check out the review that Eagle did on the Wonder Wedge. I finally had time to check it out. He does a fantastic job, micro analysis, all the way down to the box it is shipped in, cards I send out with each order, cutting it, attaching it, the comparison of the standard shaped handle to one with the WW attached with the bevels numbered is absolutely fantastic. He has some great photos. I don't know what he cut it with, it looks like he used a butter knife. The Sorbothane is hard to cut. You need to use a sharp knife. I don't agree with what some of the things he did in the process of attaching the WW. It looks to me like it might be a little long if he has a medium hand, if he wants to use the beveled tip on the backhand grips. Yikes, he said he followed instructions.

Anyhow I think he did a fantastic job. I would encourage any of you guys that tried the WW to check it out. I am sure you could identify with a lot of what he says. For some of you that are still kind of curious. It is a WYSIWYG experience. What you see is what you get.

Now if I could just teach Eagle how to serve. I think he needs to jump higher. :twisted:

http://www.keohi.com/tennis/wonderwedge/index.htm

Eagle, great job, I have spent 100s of hours on my site, make constant revisions, you and Andirez spend a few hours and on it and put me to shame.

eagle
10-28-2004, 05:48 AM
Thanks Tim.

I've just updated the Impressions page.

I've finally figured out the serve. :) I've paraphrased the following from my site.

SERVE SUCCESS:
Armed with their suggestions from yesterday, I hit the courts with a hopper full of balls. The first hopper was a bucket full of frustration. Ball control and direction were non-existent. =(

The 2nd hopper, however, was very different. Deriving from some of Bungalo Bill's comments about in-between grips, I decided to move my grip ever so slightly further down the bevel towards the eastern grip. This made for a comfortable fit that was immediately noticeable. Why didn't I try that? I guess I was forcing myself to stick with my grip on the old "narrower" bevel 2 scheme. With a much wider bevel 2, I guess I needed to make a minor adjustment in the way I hold the racquet.

The adjusted grip didn't feel awkward like the pure continental grip I've been using. And it was quite evident to me how effective this grip is after hitting the first few balls. The balls had the pace, went in the direction I was targeting, and more importantly landed in the service box! The feel for the rest of the serves was the same. Direction and control were back. A few more hopper full of balls confirmed that. Whew! Thanks Bungalo Bill.

CUTTING THE WEDGE:
I simply used a pair of scissors. I figured since the edge won't play a part in how the grip feels, I didn't bother using an super sharp knife. Yes, it isn't aesthetically a clean cut but since it doesn't impact play, it doesn't bother me one bit. :)

I don't use the bevel edge of the wedge at all. Maybe I'll try that in the future by shortening it. Didn't Andirez simply install the wedge without cutting it?

r,
eagle

Tim Tennis
10-28-2004, 06:16 AM
Yes, Andirez attached it full length. Actually he did not like the WW and chose not to use it. He has been very gracious and did not post anything negative about his experience with the WW. It really would not have bothered me at all. I know that some people will love it and some people won't.

Whew! Thanks Bungalo Bill.

What the heck is this? What about the WW? We are going to get you up to a 4.0 in no time. :P

eagle
10-28-2004, 06:47 AM
Hi Tim,

That was a thank you note to Bungalo Bill for his indirect tip to shift my grip.

Thanks of course to you and ww for tweaking my game.

A strong 3.5 is good enough for me. I don't want to oversell myself and then fall short. I only have to prove my skills to myself. :)

r,
eagle

Bungalo Bill
10-28-2004, 08:45 AM
Hi Tim,

That was a thank you note to Bungalo Bill for his indirect tip to shift my grip.

Thanks of course to you and ww for tweaking my game.

A strong 3.5 is good enough for me. I don't want to oversell myself and then fall short. I only have to prove my skills to myself. :)

r,
eagle

Hi Eagle,

Glad you're finding success with your serve. Keep trying to move your serve grip over to the Continental and eventually towards an Eastern backhand grip for your spin serves. You should have no problem doing that once you get used to the feel of the WW.

You may have misunderstood what I meant by the "inbetween" grip I use. For a long long time, I have always hit my forehand with an inbetween grip. It is not a pure Eastern and it is not a pure SW.

With the WW, it feels most comfortable with your grip in a SW. In fact, it feels like an old pair of shoes. The grip feels real good. But by changing the grip even a small degree magnifies itself in many other areas. Such as arm angle, racquet face angle at contact, swing path, strike zone, etc.

Many people on the serve move the grip during their serve motion without realizing it. I remember watching this kid serve and he would be in a continental grip to start out. After his followthrough he would be in a different grip! He did not know he was doing this until I showed him his starting grip and then his finishing grip. It took time for him to stop turning the grip in his hand and his serve suffered a little during that relearning time.

It is raining here in Southern Cal. I have not had time to go hit balls. With this new toy the WW, I am begging the Rain God's will let me go hit balls at least with my ball machine. I want to work on my volleys, my serve and my backhand. The volleys will most likely be practiced against a backboard to get used to my grip adjustments. I do not use a pure Continental for my volleys. All in all the WW does give a player a lot of leverage to spin that ball.

I really like it for slices. It feels so solid.

andirez
10-29-2004, 05:05 AM
Yes, Andirez attached it full length. Actually he did not like the WW and chose not to use it. He has been very gracious and did not post anything negative about his experience with the WW. It really would not have bothered me at all. I know that some people will love it and some people won't.


I believe that is the problem I had with the WW, I should not have attached it full length. I will definitly give it a second test round soon, but for the moment I need my strokes since I'm playing a tournament next week. So I'm planning to cut it so that my thumb and forefinger have a firmer grip either on the bevelled tip or maybe even on the regular handle (leaving the bevel in between the forefinger and middle finger). That should give me a more comfortable feeling and should still allow me to benefit from the advantages the WW offers. Also thinking of sanding the WW just a bit to make it a tad less high. I'm a sucker for racquet tweaking, so it's only a matter of time before I start experiment again with the WW :)

Tim Tennis
10-29-2004, 06:28 AM
Andirez,

I do hope you try again. As I mentioned before a lot of people with two-handed backhands do attach the Wonder Wedge the full length. The beveled tip is one of the major advantages. It provides additional traction and a point of reference for moving your hand on the racquet handle at least for the backhand and serve grips. Some two-handed players have told me they cut the WW to help them place their bottom hand in the exact same position every time and they love it.

I think you are very wise not to but the WW back on and go play in a tournament. Some people attach the WW and go to the various grips that they normally use at home like I recommend on the "For A Quick Start Sheet." It feels good to them and they say, "Oh boy," and the next day they go out and play an important match. Unfortunately, the ball is going to come off the racquet differently (new points of leverage and traction), they may hit some great shots, and miss others (may change the racquet head angle slightly, it all depends on how well they moved their hand on the handle before.) They go out, get their a-- kicked and blame it all on the WW. Well, it was the WW's fault but it was their fault too. They have got to master the new points of leverage and traction first. Get used to the new and very distinct feel that each grip and position on the handle will have. But, but I promise, once you get used to the new feel, master the new points of leverage and traction, the WW will greatly improve your game and I don't care what level you are playing now. I promise you this too, if you play with the WW for 3 months and you go back and pick up a standard shaped handle, you will say to yourself, "How in the h--- did I ever play with that."

Enough preaching, sometimes I get too fired up. Soon I will be sounding like Bungalo Bill. :P Just kidding You got to love the game.

I hate the thought of you sanding the WW down. The Sorbothane is difficult to work with, here is a tip if you want to try it. At least this is what one customer told me he did. I have not tried it. He froze the WW and said he could sand it then. Yikes!

Andirez, thanks again for being so gracious. Good luck in the tournament.

The Beveled Tip, Belongs On The Grip


http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Wonder_Wedge_W/IMAG0001.JPG

andfor
10-29-2004, 09:57 AM
I received my WW yesterday in the mail and immediately proceeded to install one right before my first match. I played two doubles matches yesterday and spilt sets in both. Due to time limits I played a tie-break resulting in the first (lost) 9-11 and did not finish the second match (tie).

Brief impressions are as follows. I really like the way it makes you have the right grip for groundstrokes. The grip and leverage was especially enhanced when hitting power shots the SW forehand and Eastern BH. Leverage was excellent and resulted in a more stable shot and additional spin. The continental grip I use to block back hard serves and volley with is excellent because I felt even more confident with the extra leverage. The serve will take more getting used to for me. This is not a bad thing. When serving I got more spin than usual and simply need more time to adjust. Overheads, my best shot was awkward also. I am pretty sure the WW makes snapping the wrist easier and that's what I'll adjust to. In the long-run I am sure will my serves and OH's will benefit.

As soon as I get to play more singles I'll have additional info.

Overall first impression of the WW is excellent. I am going to play this off-season with it to give it a fair chance and full view. The jury is still out but I have a feeling the WW may be a keeper for me.

Thanks WW,

Andy

Tim Tennis
10-29-2004, 10:46 AM
Andy,

Thanks! Wow, you did exactly what I just got through telling people not to do. Oh Baby, thank God you played so well or I would have had some hate mail on the TW forum. Truly, I don't think that most people start off that well. Apparently you move your hand very well on the handle now for the various grips. Problems with the serve and the OH, interesting, I hope the WW caused you to close your racquet head angle slightly and you are drawing the ball into the net. If that is the case all you have to do is power up and out, crank it, turn the dogs lose.

Thanks for the great input. Keep in touch.

eagle
10-29-2004, 10:59 AM
Hi Andy,

What worked for me was to shift my grip just a bit towards the eastern grip.

Bevel 2 with the wedge is wider than the stock racquet. So, the center of is now shifted a bit. If you go to my review and go to the Impressions page, you'll see a simple graphic depicting the before and after.

When I shifted my grip a little due to the wider bevel, my serves came back. May be worth a try. It at least worked for me.

r,
eagle

andfor
10-29-2004, 09:34 PM
Tim and Eagle your advise is so on the money. Thanks!

Eagle, your review is excellent and I think your initial experience is similar to mine. You took more time with your review and write better than me. The biggest exception between us might be the volley which I found to be a comfortable aspect from the beginning. I'll get a full day of play tomorrow with the WW and crank up the racquet speed on my second serves and experiment with grips.

Tim I can understand your advise to not compete the first time out using your WW. I am one of those not afraid to try something new. I know many folks who would not even try it (stubborn/sceptics), and others who would not ever give it a chance during competition (ego maniacs). For me this is the off-season and a time to try to improve something in my game. I am looking for an edge as my physical gifts (what little I naturally have) diminish with age. For those of you thinking the WW is just for old foggies think again. My kid will be trying it soon.
I figure what the heck, it can't hurt.

WW is definitely worth a try.........open your mind to the possibilities..........what did good ol' did mom say? You'll never know if you like it until you try it.

Tiger Paw
10-31-2004, 07:36 PM
First time hitting with the WW today. I have played primarily with an easter FH grip, dialing in a sw or w for effect or as circumstances dictate. When hitting with the WW using an easter FH grip, I felt the WW could be less high. Perhaps 3/8 "instead of 1/2". I felt this would give the hand (base knuckle) a firmer surface to bind onto. This would be consistent with andirez's and BB's first impressions. As someone who's primary grip is eastern instead of sw, perhaps I am more aware of the hight.

I assume the ww is not intended to promote only the sw grip.

BB mentioned inbetween grips. I also use them and found them harder to find with the ww.

The continental grip felt really funny volleying. Again the thickness seamed to roll the grip a little more toward an eastern bh which caused all sorts of unintended volleys. Perhaps the more diagonal direction of the index finger initiated a slight wrist movement. Eventually I just turned the racket around with the ww forward so that my index finger could be a little more virtical.

basmpu
10-31-2004, 08:53 PM
Has anyone tried using this product backwards? Flip your racquet 180 degrees so the WW is at bevel #7. I wrap my fingertips around the top of the wedge for a super-solid feel on my SW forehand.

A friend gave me an extra WW last week so I put it on an extra racquet and hit the backboards. I still haven't tried it in an actual match but what interests me is how the extended bevels have increased my awareness of the location of my base knuckle. It took two or three days of 'shadow boxing' before I became aware of the new sensation from my base knuckle. Without once using the WW against an opponent I can say that it has increased my ability to feel and position the corners of the bevels (on a normal racquet) precisely for more accurate shotmaking.
The different shape of the grip seems to have increased the sensitivity of the nerves in my hand. When playing with a non-WW racquet the other day, I had a definite increase in my percentages.

Tim Tennis
11-01-2004, 04:21 AM
Tiger Paw,

Very insightful comments.

I felt the WW could be less high. Perhaps 3/8 "instead of 1/2". I felt this would give the hand (base knuckle) a firmer surface to bind onto. The WW robbed Peter to pay Paul and Jim. It made bevels 2 and 4 larger and pushed up poor old bevel 3 and made it smaller. It is only fair, bevel 3 has been hogging the whole side of the racquet for ever. This is really quite a shock to the EF players from a tactile standpoint. I feels so strange to them. I will take some time just to get used to this new feel. The reality is once you get used to the new feel, because it is so distinct you will never have trouble finding it, the EF, and going back and forth to other grips will be made so much easier. Once you get used to the WW, the hight will be a non factor.

If you want to really have some fun face the WW forward in your hand with your fingers wrapped around it and practice hitting topspin shots with the EF grip. Heck, you guys may make the Western forehand obsolete, Yikes!

Perhaps 3/8 "instead of 1/2". Tiger Paw, What did you put on your handle? the WW is only 1/4" high :)

I assume the ww is not intended to promote only the sw grip Absolutely, it is for any and all grips, it promotes the learning and using of multiple grips.

This would be consistent with andirez's and BB's first impressions. I don't know what I am going to do with all you Eastern forehanders. You need to get a grip. :P

BB mentioned inbetween grips. I also use them and found them harder to find with the ww.

This will probably get me in trouble but what the heck. I have heard a lot of comments about inbetween grips. How much do you really change the Racquet head angle? How percisely can you go to that exact position everytime? At what point do you decide to go to an inbetween grip? Would you not be better off to make slight modifications in the hand/wrist angle to fine tune adjustments to fit the situation like you have to do on volleys?
Having said all that I actually catch myself doing that too. Sometimes after a point I will look down at my handle and wonder how in the heck did my hand get over there. It is just automatic.

TigerPaw, good comments, greatly appreciate your input. Thanks

Tim Tennis
11-01-2004, 04:58 AM
Basmpu,

Has anyone tried using this product backwards? Flip your racquet 180 degrees so the WW is at bevel #7. I wrap my fingertips around the top of the wedge for a super-solid feel on my SW forehand.

You broke the code. Get off that wall, get on some courts and start ripping it. You will probably draw the ball into the net at first because of the tremendous spin and draw you will get. Power out, make a few adjustments and you will be amazed. What happens? With the fingers wrapped around the WW facing forward in the hand for the SW or the W, there is a much greater transfer of energy. Why? Because the fingers are thin compared to the palm of your hand and the rapid acceleration of the racquet really focus the pressure points on the fingers, upon contact there is nothing left to compress and more energy is transferred to the ball. We actually do address this on the site but don't go into it much because, my gosh, we have confused them enough, as I have probably done now.

Below is the Western forehand being used in this manner. For the SW just move the knuckles over one row. There you have it.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Photo_Western.htm


Thanks for your comments and observations.

andirez
11-01-2004, 08:41 AM
This will probably get me in trouble but what the heck. I have heard a lot of comments about inbetween grips. How much do you really change the Racquet head angle? How percisely can you go to that exact position everytime? At what point do you decide to go to an inbetween grip? Would you not be better off to make slight modifications in the hand/wrist angle to fine tune adjustments to fit the situation like you have to do on volleys?
Having said all that I actually catch myself doing that too. Sometimes after a point I will look down at my handle and wonder how in the heck did my hand get over there. It is just automatic.


I think it is a matter of personal preference, some people adjust their racquet head by using their wrist, others do it by slighlty varying their grip. A friend of mine has more or less a continental grip on both sides, but he makes use of his wrist to close the racquet face. As you know I make small grip variations (most of the time unconciously) when I hit my forehand, that is why I also like a slightly smaller grip so that I can easily make last minute changes.

But I'm actually as we speak cutting the WW (well not right now but did so 10 seconds ago) and I have confidence that my second test round will be more satisfying than my first. The grip feels definitly more natural now for me, and I seem to be able to use inbetween grips as well. To give you an idea about its lenght, my forefinger rests on the bevelled tip when I have an eastern backhand grip. Will let you know what happens on court.

Tim Tennis
11-01-2004, 11:02 AM
Andirez,

Very well said, thanks TT, I knew I would get a response from you. :P

I think it is a matter of personal preference, some people adjust their racquet head by using their wrist, others do it by slighlty varying their grip. A friend of mine has more or less a continental grip on both sides, but he makes use of his wrist to close the racquet face. As you know I make small grip variations (most of the time unconciously) when I hit my forehand, that is why I also like a slightly smaller grip so that I can easily make last minute changes.

Tim Tennis
11-01-2004, 12:04 PM
Sorry guys, I have got to share this with you. I won't put a testimonial up unless it is someone from the TW forum but in this case I will have to make an exception. When I acknowledge an order I ask, How did you find the WW and what motivated you to try it. Mark told me he found my site through a search. Oh baby, what a story.

What motivated me to try this? Well, I tinker with equipment all the time. I guess you could say that I’m looking for the ultimate setup of my sticks. I currently play 4.5 USTA, and quite frankly, getting a bit older and looking for all the ‘edge’ I can get. I’ve done (and do) custom handles on racquets for people, but nothing like this. Usually I’m asked to put a Head or Volkl handle shape on a Wilson stick (sometimes the other way around…) That’s about as custom as I get on handle mods… Any way, one my buddies got a hold of a racquet that had this odd shaped handle…it was on an older Pro Kennex Silver Ace racquet. He asked me to “put a normal handle on it” and string his stick and bring it to our practice…He wanted to hit some with his newly acquired classic…

Well, as I was getting ready to redo the grip, I just started swinging the racquet. It felt pretty good in my hand, so I carefully removed it, saw this odd thing, and put it on one of my racquets. I hit about a hopper full of balls fed from my ball machine. I clearly felt an improvement in the strength of my grip. What I noticed the most was that I felt less fatigue in my wrist and forearm, grip changes were really easy to feel and most importantly, was able to really tear into my backhand with an extreme amount of control. I play with an eastern forehand and backhand…I’ve been hitting with my wedge modified 300g for about a month. I find that I like this racquet far better than the others…they just don’t feel right anymore. Others have noticed that I’m really digging in, have noticed the extra rotation I’m getting, but I haven’t been letting anyone in on my secret just yet…Now that I found your site on the internet, well, maybe it’ll generate a little more customization work for me other than matching sticks!

I’m looking forward to getting my other two sticks set up like my favorite!

Mark

Mark Whelan is the Racquet Doctor / Cummings Ga

Tiger Paw
11-01-2004, 08:26 PM
Played again today and it felt better. Back to the basics. A little more drive with the but, etc. What I don't want to do is damage my existing shots with the variations and adjustments made to accomodate the ww.

As for size, there is another issue you may not fully appreciate. The photo referenced above shows a player with a big hand. Clearly he can wrap around the ww. My hand is smaller. The ww adds to the total circumference of the handle. So while I might choose a 4 3/8 racket with the ww it becomes say a 4 1/2.

In addition, there are diffent schools of thought on handle thickness. Some believe thicker is better and build it up to the max they can control. Others, like myself, prefere smaller grips so the hand can have more control and yet be relaxed. I measure a 4 3/8 grip but choose a 4 1/4. This goes to my previous comments about the ww being less high... even if it is only 12/64 ths :-)

I also am currious. the 4 bevel while now bigger, appears to not be straight. It dips inward as the angle of the ww is different from the angle of the racket's #4 bevel. I wondere if this prevents the knuckle from getting clean full contact with the bevel. Additionally, would the ww transfere more energy if it were made of a harder material that is less spungy? Just curious not a complaint.

Thanks for your feed back. Tommorow I've flip the racket around and see how she ripps!!!!

Tim Tennis
11-02-2004, 05:46 AM
Tiger Paw,

Excellent

What I don't want to do is damage my existing shots with the variations and adjustments made to accomodate the ww.


You won't damage any of your strokes but you touched on the great unseen gift/benefit of the Wonder Wedge. The variations and adjustments that you made to accommodate the ww has given you a whole new perspective/awareness about handle. The success of the variations and adjustments you make will depend on just how well you understand your own stroke/mechanics. The success of the variations and adjustments you make will depend on just how well you are able to correlate the swing path, swing speed, contact point, and the all crucial racquet head angle with the results. Let's say it is your regular undamaged stroke (SW) :P which you usually hit 3 feet inside the base line. Now you are dropping it on the service line but with great action. What are your options? Well you can increase the swing speed and really drive the ball or you could slightly modify your swing path to create a flatter projectory. By forcing you to practice and experiment it can open up to you a whole new world of options and possibilities that you might want to explore. Oh baby, you got to love it.

The photo referenced above shows a player with a big hand. Clearly he can wrap around the ww. My hand is smaller. The ww adds to the total circumference of the handle. So while I might choose a 4 3/8 racket with the ww it becomes say a 4 1/2.


If the photo you are talking about is the Alternative Western Forehand in a post above, the hand is mine. My hand is small to medium. The racquet size is 4 1/8", so it is a small racquet. My preference is like yours, I do prefer a small handle.

the 4 bevel while now bigger, appears to not be straight. It dips inward as the angle of the ww is different from the angle of the racket's #4 bevel

Very good, if the ww was make in an exact line with 2 and 4, it would have just about done away with the #3 bevel. Once the WW is attached this difference is negligible. When you pull the tape down it smooths out this difference.

Additionally, would the ww transfere more energy if it were made of a harder material that is less spungy? Just curious not a complaint. Yes, but so would an all steel racquet handle. Here is a super tip for the high performance players. You can make the WW much firmer and even reduce the size slightly by really cranking down on the yellow tape when you attach it. Use at least 2 wraps in opposite directions. If you want to make it like a rock, add 4 wraps. 5.5 +

Tiger Paw, very good comments, is that Clemson, do they play tennis up there? :P That is Chuck Kriese country. He wrote my favorite tennis book, "Coaching Tennis."

Tiger Paw
11-03-2004, 09:05 PM
Tom,

You suggested:


If you want to really have some fun face the WW forward in your hand with your fingers wrapped around it and practice hitting topspin shots with the EF grip. Heck, you guys may make the Western forehand obsolete.


Tonight I didn't have a lot of time to practice but for the 10-15 minuets that I hit I gave it a shot. Must say, it felt really good. Actually used it with a sw grip. I need more time to investigate but from the number of balls that wheren't coming back I'ld have to say it works very well. :twisted: Felt as if the entire racket was spinning around my base knuckle. Another advantage of a loose grip.

BTW, I have skimmed your favorite book at the book store but have not really sat down an read it. Mine is the first 2 or 3 chapters of Ultimate Tennis... the pleasure principle, etc

andirez
11-05-2004, 03:41 AM
I had a first hitting session with my cutted WW on Wednesday. I can tell you that, in my case, the cut WW is much better than when using the full length. The bevel really helps to locate where your hand is (apart from the butt cap) on the grip, making it possible to have exactly the same setup each time you hit the ball. Another improvement was that I had a much firmer grip on my handle due to the smaller circumference on the handle for my thumb and forefinger. With the cutted WW, I finally was able to gradually move from eastern to semi-western, something I like to do when I am in a rally and am hitting harder and with more spin on each consecutive shot (especially on inside-out forehands).

I hit for about an hour with the WW, forehands weren't a problem anymore athough it all did feel a bit strange but I am positive that this feeling will go after a couple of hitting sessions. In fact, when I switched back to the same racquet with a non-WW'ed grip to compare, it felt *really* awkward. I think I missed the firm feeling of the WW in my hand... help, have I been Wonder Wedged? ;)
Backhands were a bit more eastern than I am used to, but that is actually a good thing. My normal backhand grip is most of the time something between a continental and an eastern, something which I'd like to see develop in a full eastern due to the added control and spin potential.

It did hurt my defense capabilities. Normally, no matter what ball you throw at me (unless it really is too good), I am able to get it back and most of the times deep as well. With the WW it was more difficult to do this which has everything to do with myself not being fully used to the WW yet.

I'll continue testing and keep you updated, so far my second WW try-out has been much more successful than my first!

Tim Tennis
11-05-2004, 12:21 PM
Tiger Paw,

Felt as if the entire racket was spinning around my base knuckle. Another advantage of a loose grip.


Thanks for the comments, your results are exciting, be careful with the WW facing forward and the racquet moving to much, you might get some blisters it your hand is not used to it. Also, not to get micro again, when you place the WW facing forward using the SW, you focus the points of leverage and traction on very specific areas, especially the knuckle on the base of the index finger, it might get a little sore until you build up a callous.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
11-05-2004, 01:01 PM
Andirez,

I think it is great that you had a chance to try the WW attached its full length and try it cut where you can use the beveled tip. The beveled tip does make such a big difference in gripping the handle. I am so glad you did not get discouraged and just quit.
http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Wonder_Wedge_W/IMAG0001.JPG

had a first hitting session with my cutted WW on Wednesday. I can tell you that, in my case, the cut WW is much better than when using the full length. The bevel really helps to locate where your hand is (apart from the butt cap) on the grip, making it possible to have exactly the same setup each time you hit the ball. Another improvement was that I had a much firmer grip on my handle due to the smaller circumference on the handle for my thumb and forefinger. With the cutted WW, I finally was able to gradually move from eastern to semi-western, something I like to do when I am in a rally and am hitting harder and with more spin on each consecutive shot (especially on inside-out forehands).


You now have just begun to see the possibilities. The more you practice and play with it the more you will become aware of.

In fact, when I switched back to the same racquet with a non-WW'ed grip to compare, it felt *really* awkward. I think I missed the firm feeling of the WW in my hand... help, have I been Wonder Wedged?

I love it. :D I hope so. The more you use the WW, the more you will realize just how limited the standard shaped handle is in terms of leverage, traction, and for moving from grip to grip. Oh Baby, I got ya.


Backhands were a bit more eastern than I am used to, but that is actually a good thing. My normal backhand grip is most of the time something between a continental and an eastern, something which I'd like to see develop in a full eastern due to the added control and spin potential.


Now, because you are so analytical, and understand the grips, you will be able to fine tune your mechanics and make the adjustments you need to develope a full fledge EB. Sure it will take some practice but that is half the fun. :)

It did hurt my defense capabilities. Normally, no matter what ball you throw at me (unless it really is too good), I am able to get it back and most of the times deep as well. With the WW it was more difficult to do this which has everything to do with myself not being fully used to the WW yet.
Outstanding, you are still in the learning phase. In defensive situations time and space have been taken away from you. You are still thinking about each grip change and getting used to the feel. In time defensive grip changes will be automatic and instinctive. 8)

Thanks for the super update.

kreative
11-05-2004, 03:50 PM
what is the weight of the WW, and how will it affect the balance of the racquet? maybe it all balances out where WW + Tape = regular replacement grip, or something, since the replacement grip is not put back on the racquet? just curious, thanks.

Tim Tennis
11-05-2004, 04:17 PM
Kreative,
what is the weight of the WW, and how will it affect the balance of the racquet? maybe it all balances out where WW + Tape = regular replacement grip, or something, since the replacement grip is not put back on the racquet? just curious, thanks.

Weight is Approximately .8 of an ounce, uncut.

I am sure that it must affect the balance to some extent but I really think it would be undetectable for most people. Below is a link to the site that might help answer some of your questions.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/tennisfaq.htm

Thanks for your interest.

Tiger Paw
11-06-2004, 07:34 AM
andirez'

If you have been "Wedged", hopefully your opponents will be "wedgied"

eagle
11-06-2004, 08:22 AM
Played 5 sets this morning.

Didn't lose a set. Shots were solid and opponents were wedgied. :)

Can't imagine playing without the wedge now.

r,
eagle

Tim Tennis
11-06-2004, 11:59 AM
Andirez, Eagle, Tiger Paw,

Thanks guys, but don't forget you are just rookies. :P You have just begun to understand the gifts and benefits the Wonder Wedge. Six months from now you will understand the truth in what I just said.

I am so glad that all of you are having such success so soon. The revelations will keep coming if you continue to look for ways to improve your game. Grip and rip it.

You got to love the game.

eqx
11-11-2004, 07:21 AM
Just received in the mail and thinking about the installation on a LM Instinct 4 5/8. The instructions and pics I've seen use an overgrip wrap. I've never used an overgrip and have some questions. I gather the overwrap is thinner so as not to enlarge the grip. How does the overwrap feel versus a regular grip (absorbing sweat, traction and durability) ? Is it possible to find a "thin" regular grip to finish the WW install?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Tim Tennis
11-11-2004, 08:54 AM
Hello EQX,

I've never used an overgrip and have some questions. I gather the overwrap is thinner so as not to enlarge the grip. How does the overwrap feel versus a regular grip (absorbing sweat, traction and durability) ? Is it possible to find a "thin" regular grip to finish the WW install?


Good question. You are correct, most grips the racquets come with are fairly thick and bulky. There are three good reasons for using an overgrip: 1) As mentioned, to keep the grip close to the same size. 2) It will give all the bevels much better definition and feel. 3) Most people rarely change the grip on their racquet. It gets oily, slippery and they still continue to play with it. The overgrips are much better at absorbing sweat and provide better traction vs an original grip that has been on the racquet for 2 months. Most pros use the overgrips. I use tournagrip but there are a lot of good wraps out there. With the overgrips you will be inclined to change them more often.

Having said all that some people tell me they do attach the WW with the original grip the racquet came with but I can't imagine. I have seen some fairly thin leather grips out there and they might work OK but I would still make sure I secured the WW well with the yellow tape.

Hope I answered all of your questions.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Wonder_Wedge_W/IMAG0001.JPG

eqx
11-14-2004, 02:47 PM
Why I tried the WW:

For both my FH & BH (eastern), I am not getting the racquet perpendicular to the ground. At contact, the head is slightly open. I have been trying to move to semi-western FH and "stronger" eastern for the BH but can not get the grip correct all the time. From the forum, I hope the WW will allow me to find and maintain the proper grip.

Putting the WW on was easy thanks to the detailed info posted on this thread. Immediately the WW felt great in my hand for SW FH and Eastern BH. The WW "locked" into the natural palm crevice on the FH and interior middle finger joints on the BH. The WW provided great feedback for shadow FH and BH. I knew I was "missing" grips but the WW allowed me to find the proper grip.

Results hitting today. The feedback from WW emphasized how much I was mis-gripping and how much the racquet was twisting during the FH. When I did a proper SW FH grip, the topsin was amazing. I also realized how I was NOT holding the racquet against the palm on my hand.

Same for the backhand. Finding the proper grip kept the head perpendiular and reduced the amount of mis-hits (framing). Solid hits resulted.

My serves need work. The raised bevel made finding and keeping the continental grip in place. Serves were almost slice-like landing on the service box sideline.

WW works for me. The grip immediately felt great. The hand feedback allowed me to find and maintain the proper grip during rallies. Balls were definitely crisper.

Great product. Give the WW a trial.

Tim Tennis
11-15-2004, 03:57 AM
EQX,

Can't tell you how much I appreciate your great response and thoughtful comments.

My serves need work. The raised bevel made finding and keeping the continental grip in place. Serves were almost slice-like landing on the service box sideline. From the feedback I get this is the single most common problem people have when first trying out the WW. It is not really a problem, it is an opportunity to greatly improve their serve. The WW will cause them to move all the way over to the Continental grip. Even those who truly had a Continental grip before will close the racquet head angle a couple of extra degrees. This will cause them to get more spin and action on the ball which will pull the ball into the net. Once they understand what is happening and start powering through the ball with more forward energy the increased action they get on the ball is amazing. Others that thought they used a Continental grip for the serve but were really using an Eastern forehand or something close to it, will really slice the ball and it won't even make it to the net. Ask any teaching pro what usually happens when they try to move someone from serving with the EF grip to the Continental grip, the ball will slice right off their racquet. For these people to move over to the Continental will require a lot of adjustments in their mechanics. It will take some time but if they are serious about their tennis game it will be worth the effort. The other course of action is to just continue serving with the EF but I hope they try to master the Continental grip. It can add so much to their game.

EQX, thanks for your great comments.

You got to love the game.

andirez
11-15-2004, 04:47 AM
Well as long as we are p1mping the WW... I have had some more hitting sessions with my WWed PK 5G. I really start getting the hang of it now, forehands really feel good and backhands were never better. Serve is slowly coming along, but there is still a lot of work to do in that area. I am currenlty at the stage were a normal racquet handle feels weird. I can still play with it of course, but I have less feeling with my racquet and I miss the increased contact area that the WW offers. It is also much easier to evaluate your strokes because you have a much clearer picture of the grip you used during the stroke. One thing I had to unlearn was not to sping my racquet during strokes. This is something I always did unconciously and with the WW I really had to pay attention that I didn't.

For people who are interested in the WW: don't make the same initial mistake as I did. If you attach te WW, make sure that you don't make your handle to thick. I would definitly start with one overgrip as suggested in the manual, and if that really feels too small, you can always add a second one.

I myself have a one handed backhand, but while cutting the WW and found myself with two WW pieces, I wondered if it would be a good idea for two handers to attach the other half on the other side of the racquet, where their left hand grips the handle. Should add some more feeling and leverage no?

Tim Tennis
11-15-2004, 06:07 AM
Andirez,

Well as long as we are p1mping the WW Damn, I knew I was not charging enough. :P

Serve is slowly coming along, but there is still a lot of work to do in that area. As mentioned above. Master it, and greatly improve your game.

I am currenlty at the stage were a normal racquet handle feels weird. I can still play with it of course, but I have less feeling with my racquet and I miss the increased contact area that the WW offers. You are almost there. You should see me try to play with a standard shaped racquet. I can't do it.

It is also much easier to evaluate your strokes because you have a much clearer picture of the grip you used during the stroke. There you go.

One thing I had to unlearn was not to sping my racquet during strokes. Terrible habit, totally useless. I have had people complain it felt strange when they spin their racquet, well yeah. I must confess, I spin mine also. You will even get used to that.

don't make the same initial mistake as I did. If you attach te WW, make sure that you don't make your handle to thick. I would definitly start with one overgrip as suggested in the manual, and if that really feels too small, you can always add a second one.
Great advice.

I myself have a one handed backhand, but while cutting the WW and found myself with two WW pieces, I wondered if it would be a good idea for two handers to attach the other half on the other side of the racquet, where their left hand grips the handle. Should add some more feeling and leverage no?

Interesting, might work for a frame of reference as to exactly where to place your hand every time. As far as leverage, I don't know. I think that with two hands on the handle people have more leverage then they know what to do with anyhow. I actually had a 5.0 player tell me he attached 1 WW on bevel 3 and 1 WW on bevel 7. I tried it. It felt great for the SW and the EB. Talk about fitting securely in your hand, oh baby. I am sitting here now playing with that racquet, it even feels great with the WF, wow. I watch the big clay court power forehand players and notice how large their grips seem to be. I think they lose a lot of definition by building their grips up so big. The WW might be the perfect solution for some of them.

Andirez, thanks for your great comments.

djbrown
11-15-2004, 07:30 AM
My experiences thus far:

Forehand (Eastern grip): In the past, my forehand has been far and away my best shot. I'd consider myself a decent 4.0 player, but my forehand is between a 4.5 and a 5.0. I can mix in an effective slice, flatten it out for a winner, etc... With the WW, I found myself struggling to find the eastern forehand grip I was used to. As a result, I'd end up either sailing the shot long if I shifted to a continental, or netting the ball if I shifted to the semi-western. I netted more out of 120 shots (about 40) than I normally would out of 600. Really having trouble finding the eastern grip using the WW.

Backhand (2-handed, bottom hand dominant and using a continential grip). It's always been a stroke I struggle with, but it greatly improved after just one hitting session with the WW. Really locked in my continential grip, as expected, and my groundies were more solid as a result.

Volleys seemed no different from what I was used to.

Serves tended to slice on the 40 or so I had a chance to hit before the rains came. I know that's just getting used to a true, full-out, continential grip and I'll be able to 'correct' for this soft slice by driving thru the ball more once I get used to the new grip.

Tim Tennis
11-15-2004, 10:35 AM
Hi DJ,

Good information.
With the WW, I found myself struggling to find the eastern forehand grip I was used to. As a result, I'd end up either sailing the shot long if I shifted to a continental, or netting the ball if I shifted to the semi-western. That is a classic example, the Continental will open up the racquet face and the SW will close it. What is happening is you are still maintaining the same swing path and hand / wrist angle that you used for your EF. It sounds like you have a great Eastern forehand. You should be able to find it easy enough, just place the knuckle on the base of your index finger right on top of the big bump on your racquet handle. I know, it is going to feel strange but that is why you should be able to find it. If that does not work you can try facing the WW forward in your hand, that way you will have the large flat number 3 bevel to place the knuckle on the base of your index finger on that you are used to. You might even try generating a heavy topspin shot with the EF. The fingers wrapped around the WW will make a big difference in the transfer of energy. Try it, you will see.

Grip and rip it.

Thanks for sharing your experience with the WW. I am sure a lot of people can identify with what you said.

Bungalo Bill
11-15-2004, 10:40 AM
My experiences thus far:

Forehand (Eastern grip): In the past, my forehand has been far and away my best shot. I'd consider myself a decent 4.0 player, but my forehand is between a 4.5 and a 5.0. I can mix in an effective slice, flatten it out for a winner, etc... With the WW, I found myself struggling to find the eastern forehand grip I was used to. As a result, I'd end up either sailing the shot long if I shifted to a continental, or netting the ball if I shifted to the semi-western. I netted more out of 120 shots (about 40) than I normally would out of 600. Really having trouble finding the eastern grip using the WW.

Backhand (2-handed, bottom hand dominant and using a continential grip). It's always been a stroke I struggle with, but it greatly improved after just one hitting session with the WW. Really locked in my continential grip, as expected, and my groundies were more solid as a result.

Volleys seemed no different from what I was used to.

Serves tended to slice on the 40 or so I had a chance to hit before the rains came. I know that's just getting used to a true, full-out, continential grip and I'll be able to 'correct' for this soft slice by driving thru the ball more once I get used to the new grip.

Lock that wrist back and down, then bend those knees and get the racquet about a foot below the ball at the lowest point of your swing. Bring the racquet up and forward but dont do anything to the wrist.

If you played with the Eastern you are going to have to understand how to sync the wrist and the forearm together. The Eastern grip does not promote that.

djbrown
11-15-2004, 11:43 AM
Hi DJ,

If that does not work you can try facing the WW forward in your hand, that way you will have the large flat number 3 bevel to place the knuckle on the base of your index finger on that you are used to. You might even try generating a heavy topspin shot with the EF. The fingers wrapped around the WW will make a big difference in the transfer of energy. Try it, you will see.


Yeah, I tried the whole reversing thing, but then it's a pretty major grip change to get the WW "in position" for my 2HBH, so I didn't pursue it much further.

Tim Tennis
11-15-2004, 01:37 PM
DJ,

Yeah, I tried the whole reversing thing, but then it's a pretty major grip change to get the WW "in position" for my 2HBH, so I didn't pursue it much further.

Excellent point. Some people do use the WW with it facing forward for the EF. They must make the usual one bevel adjustment for the Continental. This would place their fingers along the side of the WW. Interesting. Now if you used an EF for the bottom hand on your two-handed backhand you would not have to move it at all.

Good information, thanks.

moosryan
11-15-2004, 02:59 PM
how is the WW forf 2h backhands

Tim Tennis
11-15-2004, 05:03 PM
Moosryan,

Yes, many two-handed backhand players use the WW with a lot of success.

Thanks for asking.

K!ck5w3rvE
11-17-2004, 10:11 PM
How would this work for a double handed backhand? It looks awkward.

Tim Tennis
11-18-2004, 03:20 AM
Hi K!ck5w3rvE,

It works great...It might take a little getting used to... Read this great testimonial from Steve Mac Donald from Pacheco, CA

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Steve_testimon.htm

or this one from Brett Leavy - Scottsdale, AZ

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Brett_testimon.htm

Thanks for asking.

djbrown
11-18-2004, 07:22 AM
Had a brief serving session with the WW last night, my second such effort, and the results were much better. Of the first serves I hit, around 70-75% were in, which is a pretty good improvment for me (my serve has been my weak point).

As for the question above regarding 2HBH. I found the WW was quite a natural fit for my 2HBH (bottom hand continential, top hand overlap on top of bottom hand). Really helps lock in either the continential or eastern backhand, whichever you prefer.

Still fighting a few forehand issues, but hope to get that fixed tonight.

Tim Tennis
11-18-2004, 08:01 AM
dj,

Man, I love people that don't quit at the first little problem with a grip / stroke. Work with it, understand it, conquer it. Soon the :idea: will go off. This process and a new awareness will not only help you with the proplem grip / stroke but will carry over to other aspects of your game. That is one of the great gifts of the Wonder Wedge. You will fall in love with the process of understanding and improving.

Everyone that has ever tried the WW has gone through what you are going through to some extent. Some make it, some don't.

You got to love the game.

Tim Tennis
11-21-2004, 06:55 AM
Here is a very informative review I just received. Thought you guys would be interested in it. As usual he had great success in some areas and is struggling in others.

Hi Ed,

This is truly a very interesting product. I have played my first set and as I see that there is a slight learning curve, I am reserving my final opinions for a later date.

I am a 39 year old 5.0 serve and volley player. My mentors are Tim Mayotte (former # 9 ) and his brother Chris (former # 85).

I played my first set against a 4.0 player today so that I could get a feel of the wedge under relaxed conditions. After playing with the wedge I finally understood why you say to cut it shorter so that the bevel comes into play. I had cut it down to .50 of an inch as I play with a 4 &5/8 grip. It needed to be cut a whole lot more. I just got home and cut it down and 1.50. The measurements you suggest to cut it down does not seem right for the way I hold the racquet. I can't wait to try it tommorow. Here were my impressions of each stroke:

1. First serve ...flat cannon ball (Andy Roddick "slap"...eastern grip )...Wow!!! increased the power by about 5-6 miles.

2. second sevre,,,,slice...continental ...lost some consitency...bit the slice was stronger

3. Topsin serve: awesome!

4. Kicker: awesome

5. Volleys...continental ....Much more stable...especially the one handed backhand volley

6. Half Volleys: ...not so good Ed. I find that this stroke is a touch feel stroke, and the grip is not exact...sometimes its somewhere in between a continental & eastern...but the wedge won't let you do that.

7. Semi western forehand..AWESOME...this is what the wedge was made for

8. Eastern forehand...not so good....feels like I am hitting a semi western...more power but big time loss in the consistency.

9. Slice backhand...great

10 semi western one handed backhand...great

11. double fisted backhand...bottom , eastern....just ok...nothing out of the ordinary


I customized the wedge some more...lets see how I do tommorow. (by the way I destroyed the 4.0 guy even trying to get used to the wedge).

Well, it looks like you 4.0 players need to get with the program. :P

You got to love it.

Thanks Peter

Tim Tennis
11-22-2004, 03:30 AM
Hi Guys,

Here is Andirez's latest work of art. He is a perfectionist.

http://www.tennisgeometrics.com/Super_grip/IMAG0011.JPG

Thanks for the photo Andirez.

eagle
11-22-2004, 05:48 AM
Hi Tim Tennis,

I now favor backhand over forehand thanks to this neat little device. No longer am I uncomfortable hitting on this wing. I actually welcome it. :)

Hitting eastern backhand with lots of topspin feels great. Folks I've played with regularly are amazed at my backhand. They say it has a lot more pace, spin, and consistency. Well .... little do they know I have a little bit of help. :)

Thanks,
eagle

Tim Tennis
11-22-2004, 06:01 AM
Eagle, thanks for the update, I am so glad you are having fun with the Wonder Wedge.

Thanks,

Ed (Tim Tennis)

djbrown
11-23-2004, 06:53 AM
small update: eastern forehand is starting to get locked in after a few more hitting sessions. Still have a few problems "popping" up my forehand slice, but it's a pretty minor problem.

Serves continue to progress well.

Tim Tennis
11-23-2004, 08:39 AM
DJ,

Thanks for the update.

Still have a few problems "popping" up my forehand slice, but it's a pretty minor problem.

It is only a minor problem that could cost you a match. It can only be racquet head angle, swing path, contact point. Practice, experiment, adjust, it is there. You got to love it.

Thanks DJ