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View Full Version : Who was better in their prime, Steffi Graf or Martina Hingis?


Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 05:42 PM
Simple question really, i've just been having a debate with this moron who seems to be thinking for the majority with his ****.

We know who's better looking, but who would you say is the better tennis player both in their primes.

Graff has a 7-2 advantage over Hingis in head to heads.

A week later, she withdrew from a tournament in Japan just before the finals against Martina Hingis because of a knee injury that required surgery. Missed about 3 months and lost her #1 ranking to Hingis during that time after a record total of 377 weeks, basically 1/4 of her life! Came back and won a warmup tournament for the French Open, but once again lost to Coetzer, this time in the quarterfi

^^I think that just says everything lol

PLEASE REMEMBER TO CAST YOUR VOTE!

Andres
04-30-2007, 05:43 PM
Steffi Graff, hands down.

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 05:46 PM
Steffi Graff, hands down.

Thank you.

Check out this muppet who i am talking with on msn messenger...

Off The Wall says:
Man steffi graff is no a measure to compare with...there many players which could have beaten steffi graff if they were in her era!!

^^LMFAO!!!!

Claims to know stuff about tennis.

Here's another good piece of humor he added...

Off The Wall says:
maybe but when you speak of talent you mean Hingis....none will ever be such a talented player with such a unique and clever game play

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 05:48 PM
Andres, remember to cast your vote please...

drakulie
04-30-2007, 05:51 PM
Graf hands down was a way better player. However, I could see where one would say Hingis was talented. Hingis did have an amazing all around game. She could hit shots from anywhere in the court, and change pace direction very well. Don't forget she was an amazing volleyer, and Grand Slam doubles player.

federerfanatic
04-30-2007, 05:51 PM
Graf by far. Graf is not the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination, but to say Hingis in her prime is better would be absurd.

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 05:52 PM
Graff's forehand is the best forehand to have graced the women's game! Regardless of Hingis's shot selection, you can't beat that forehand, right?

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 05:58 PM
Current Rank: 3 Highest Rank: 1
Grand Slam Titles: 22 Tournaments Won: 107
Australian Open Titles: 4 French Open Titles: 6
Wimbledon Titles: 7 US Open Titles: 5
Grand Slam Finals: 31 Consecutive Grand Slams: 5
Most GS Titles, Year: 4 Consec. Years with 1+ GS: 10
Years Ranked #1: 8 Career Prize Money: $21 million
Career Record: 902-114

^^When Hingis even achieves half of that, then and only then can she be even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence.

federerfanatic
04-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Current Rank: 3 Highest Rank: 1
Grand Slam Titles: 22 Tournaments Won: 107
Australian Open Titles: 4 French Open Titles: 6
Wimbledon Titles: 7 US Open Titles: 5
Grand Slam Finals: 31 Consecutive Grand Slams: 5
Most GS Titles, Year: 4 Consec. Years with 1+ GS: 10
Years Ranked #1: 8 Career Prize Money: $21 million
Career Record: 902-114

^^When Hingis even achieves half of that, then and only then can she be even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence.

Hingis wont ever come close to that. Hingis is a top 10 player, nothing more at this point. Her window has already closed. She wont ever win another grand slam unless a bomb explodes. She isnt even in the league of players like Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, and Sharapova, at this point, she is something like 1-12 vs that group since returning. Yet even that group were apparently just keeping a seat warm for Serena's return to form, or perhaps for when Vaidisova starts to fulfill her full potential.

Baghdatis72
04-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Graff was a better player imo.

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Hingis wont ever come close to that. Hingis is a top 10 player, nothing more at this point. Her window has already closed. She wont ever win another grand slam unless a bomb explodes. She isnt even in the league of players like Henin, Clijsters, Mauresmo, and Sharapova, at this point, she is something like 1-12 vs that group since returning. Yet even that group were apparently just keeping a seat warm for Serena's return to form, or perhaps for when Vaidisova starts to fulfill her full potential.

Couldn't agree more entirely.

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 06:22 PM
We need more votes please.......

Morrissey
04-30-2007, 06:40 PM
Graf by far. Graf is not the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination, but to say Hingis in her prime is better would be absurd.

Graf was not GOAT by any stretch of the imagination??? If she´s not the GOAT she should be a close second. She only won 22 grand slams.

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 06:44 PM
Graf was not GOAT by any stretch of the imagination??? If she´s not the GOAT she should be a close second. She only won 22 grand slams.

Mind voting for who you feel was better? :D

Morrissey
04-30-2007, 06:53 PM
Mind voting for who you feel was better? :D

Yeah when you spell Graf correctly. :-)

Tennis_Maestro
04-30-2007, 06:59 PM
Yeah when you spell Graf correctly. :-)

LOL! :D.....

Condoleezza
04-30-2007, 09:01 PM
Simple question really, i've just been having a debate with this moron who seems to be thinking for the majority with his ****.

We know who's better looking, but who would you say is the better tennis player both in their primes.
....

Graf as well.


Condi

Slazenger
04-30-2007, 09:09 PM
Graf as well.


Condi


Condi...







I've missed you.

rommil
04-30-2007, 10:15 PM
Graf.....Hingis' serve is too much of a liability especially against the ones who knew how to attack it.

wyutani
05-01-2007, 02:30 AM
i pick hingis cos she's so young when she won that soooo many titles. hard to argue mate'. :-D

caulcano
05-01-2007, 02:56 AM
Graf by far. Graf is not the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination, but to say Hingis in her prime is better would be absurd.

Graf is considered by some as GOAT. You would not say the same as Hingis because people would just laugh at you.

wyutani
05-01-2007, 03:03 AM
the poll should have a seles in it.

35ft6
05-01-2007, 04:51 AM
Voted for Graf, and Hingis is probably my favorite female player almost of all time. She's about the most clever girl to ever play.

Except on grass, their matches were very competitive.

baseliner
05-01-2007, 05:18 AM
Fraulein Forehand (citing Bud Collins I think) by a wide margin. Length of time on top, number of grand slams... by every objective standard imaginable. Now if the question were Martina Navratilova, Chris Evert, Margaret Court or Steffi Graf, well then...

Warriorroger
05-01-2007, 06:40 AM
Stupid thread. Even when injured and aged, Hingis couldn't beat Graf. Graf is an old school champion: they win regardless the opponent or surface.

Why do you have to deliberately write her name wrong? Is it just to disrepect a great player?

rommil
05-01-2007, 09:13 AM
Voted for Graf, and Hingis is probably my favorite female player almost of all time. She's about the most clever girl to ever play.

Except on grass, their matches were very competitive.

Well said man. The beauty about watching Hingis at her prime was how she saw the point of the match 3 points ahead of anybody. She compensated her lack of size with her anticipation and how her ability to difuse a power game into a thinking game. Graf was better in her prime but I think Hingis had a more rounded game and was more fearless, even having a much better net game than Graf despite her size.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 09:18 AM
Well said man. The beauty about watching Hingis at her prime was how she saw the point of the match 3 points ahead of anybody. She compensated her lack of size with her anticipation and how her ability to difuse a power game into a thinking game. Graf was better in her prime but I think Hingis had a more rounded game and was more fearless, even having a much better net game than Graf despite her size.


Hingis more *fearless* than Graf? :D :-D
Yes, Martina was known for her "fearlessness" on the big stage, in slam finals. We all remember FO 99 and AO 02 fondly ....

Condi

rommil
05-01-2007, 09:37 AM
Hingis more *fearless* than Graf? :D :-D
Yes, Martina was known for her "fearlessness" on the big stage, in slam finals. We all remember FO 99 and AO 02 fondly ....

Condi

Condi if you just try to watch the world with both eyes open, you might see much better(of course it probably would help if you had the right size brain to process what you see). Hingis was fearless in the sense that she wasn't afraid to attack the net at the right time. So are you going to make a ******** statement that Graf had a better net game than Hingis?

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 09:43 AM
Condi if you just try to watch the world with both eyes open, you might see much better(of course it probably would help if you had the right size brain to process what you see). Hingis was fearless in the sense that she wasn't afraid to attack the net at the right time. So are you going to make a ******** statement that Graf had a better net game than Hingis?

What has attacking the net at the right time to do with "fearlessness"?
IMO, it is at least as fearless to battle it out from the baseline. Players attacking the net are shi.tting their pants that they might lose a battle of the nerves each baseline rally is.

Sorry, to read the words "Hingis" and "fearless" in the same sentence simply made me chuckle .... This whiner who always broke down when the going got tough!
:D


Condi

rommil
05-01-2007, 09:54 AM
What has attacking the net at the right time to do with "fearlessness"?
IMO, it is at least as fearless to battle it out from the baseline. Players attacking the net are shi.tting their pants that they might lose a battle of the nerves each baseline rally is.

Sorry, to read the words "Hingis" and "fearless" in the same sentence simply made me chuckle .... This whiner who always broke down when the going got tough!
:D


Condi
It is making you chuckle because it is a compliment to Hingis, not to Graf.She might have broken down at that match but I tell you what Condi, Hingis has court maturity in her matches you will never achieve in your lifetime.How old was Hingis at that match again? Care to supply the number? Now, what has fearlessness has anything to do with going to the net? This is a typical statement of somebody that knows nothing about the game. Ok let me present a simple case scenario that hopefully your pea sized brain can handle. You hit an approach shot and think about rushing the net and you did. What are the shots that you as a player can be vulnerable to when you are doing that? What? You don't know? Thought so.

stormholloway
05-01-2007, 12:32 PM
Graf by far. Graf is not the GOAT by any stretch of the imagination, but to say Hingis in her prime is better would be absurd.

Graf isn't the best by any stretch of the imagination? How so? That implies one wouldn't even consider here the best.

Who's the best then?

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 01:02 PM
Graf isn't the best by any stretch of the imagination? How so? That implies one wouldn't even consider here the best.

Who's the best then?


Some US chick of course .... :D :-D

Condi

Andres
05-01-2007, 01:14 PM
I would rank Navratilova over Graf as the best female player of all time.
Indeed, they have had different achievements, but I can't rank Seles over Graf, and I can't rank Graf over Navratilova

lenbo01
05-01-2007, 01:15 PM
is this thread a joke?

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 01:17 PM
I would rank Navratilova over Graf as the best female player of all time. ....


Still mad because Graf wiped the floor with Sabatini all the time in the biggies?

Condi

Andres
05-01-2007, 01:20 PM
Still mad because Graf wiped the floor with Sabatini all the time in the biggies?

Condi
Why would I? I'm a Graf fan, not a Gaby fan.
In fact, I wouldn't even rank Gaby in the top15 of women of all time.

Is that your argument? Are we only fans of our countrymen? (countrywomen, in this case :p)

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 01:23 PM
Why would I? I'm a Graf fan, not a Gaby fan.
In fact, I wouldn't even rank Gaby in the top15 of women of all time.

Is that your argument? Are we only fans of our countrymen? (countrywomen, in this case :p)

I'm not German, I only live and work here.

Condi

Andres
05-01-2007, 01:30 PM
I'm not German, I only live and work here.

Condi
As the lawyer you are, trying to deviate the attention of the point.

I ranked Martina over Graf.

You said: "oh, you're still mad Steffi beat Sabatini on the big ones"? (which already makes no sense, specially has nothing to do with the point)

I said: No, I'm a Graf fan. Graf was head and shoulders above Gaby, and I wouldn't rank her even in the Top15. Is it all about countrywomen?

You said:No, I'm not German.

What's your point in the first place? How was Sabatini involved in the discussion in the first place?

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 01:38 PM
As the lawyer you are, trying to deviate the attention of the point.

I ranked Martina over Graf.

You said: "oh, you're still mad Steffi beat Sabatini on the big ones"? (which already makes no sense, specially has nothing to do with the point)

I said: No, I'm a Graf fan. Graf was head and shoulders above Gaby, and I wouldn't rank her even in the Top15. Is it all about countrywomen?

You said:No, I'm not German.

What's your point in the first place? How was Sabatini involved in the discussion in the first place?


Well, I thought you were still mad that Sabatini lost so often against Graf. Obviously I was wrong as you are a Graf fan. A luke-warm one, though (calling Navi GOAT!!!).

Condi

Andres
05-01-2007, 01:46 PM
Not a good example, IMO. I'm a Bracciali fan, for example, but that doesn't forbid me to think Sampras is the GOAT.

You see? I can be a player's fan, but believe other player is better. I'm actually a fan of quite a few lower ranked players, like Bracciali, Guccione, or Karlovic.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 01:47 PM
Not a good example, IMO. I'm a Bracciali fan, for example, but that doesn't forbid me to think Sampras is the GOAT.

You see? I can be a player's fan, but believe other player is better. I'm actually a fan of quite a few lower ranked players, like Bracciali, Guccione, or Karlovic.

Graf wasn't a lower-ranked player.
As a matter of fact she won more slams than Navratilova, won the Golden Grand Slam (Navi didn't) and was year-end's #1 8 times (Navi 7 times).

Condi

Andres
05-01-2007, 01:53 PM
Graf wasn't a lower-ranked player.
As a matter of fact she won more slams than Navratilova, won the Golden Grand Slam (Navi didn't) and was year-end's #1 8 times (Navi 7 times).

Condi
And Martina won almost three times the total slams Steffi won, and almost three times the total titles overall. And more single titles.

This is what I wrote in the other thread:

Graf has achieved much more than Seles. In my opinion, Graf was better than Seles. But achievements-wise, you seem to be taking all credit from Navratilova's. 59 slams and 345 titles! Come on!!

It's not that wacky of an idea to believe Martina was the GOAT!

If you believe Graf was the GOAT, great! But no matter what stats you give me, you won't change my mind, cause I have stats to counter your stats.

In my opinion, Martina was the Goat.
In yours, Steffi was the Goat

We're all happy now.

Andy

CEvertFan
05-01-2007, 02:01 PM
There is no doubt that Graf was a better player than Hingis (I did cast my vote), but Hingis was a good player in her own right and since Graf did it she is the one of two players who has come closest to winning the "Grand Slam" with Seles in '92 being the other player.


I would also rank Navratilova ahead of Graf as the G.O.A.T, although IMO all of the top 4 women (Navratilova, Evert, Court and Graf) have a legitimate claim to that status. It is a matter of subjective opinion on who picks which player.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 02:04 PM
There is no doubt that Graf was a better player than Hingis (I did cast my vote), but Hingis was a good player in her own right and since Graf did it she is the one of two players who has come closest to winning the "Grand Slam" with Seles in '92 being the other player.
....

Seles was in no way close to winning the Grand Slam in 92.

Condi

backhander
05-01-2007, 02:10 PM
Seles was in no way close to winning the Grand Slam in 92.

Condi

I would call winning the AO, FO, USO, and making it to the final of Wimby pretty close.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 02:17 PM
I would call winning the AO, FO, USO, and making it to the final of Wimby pretty close.


So close and yet so far - she had to play Ms. Graf in the Wimbledon final.
Lost 2-6 1-6. An all-time record for #1 players in slam finals.

Condi

CEvertFan
05-01-2007, 02:19 PM
Seles was in no way close to winning the Grand Slam in 92.

Condi

In 1992 Seles won the Australian Open. the French Open, made it to the finals of Wimbledon and won the US Open. In 1997 Hingis won the Australian Open, made it to the finals of the French, won Wimbledon and won the US Open. If that's not close then I don't know what is.

As a matter of fact that's what happened to Graf in 1989. She won 3 slams and made it to the final of the 4th one.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 02:24 PM
In 1992 Seles won the Australian Open. the French Open, made it to the finals of Wimbledon and won the US Open. In 1997 Hingis won the Australian Open, made it to the finals of the French, won Wimbledon and won the US Open. If that's not close then I don't know what is.

As a matter of fact that's what happened to Graf in 1989. She won 3 slams and made it to the final of the 4th one.

Graf was really close in 1989. She served for the match against ASV at FO.
Even Graf's 1993 was closer. After all she won the first set against Seles at AO.
Graf could have won Grand Slams in 1995 and 1996, too. She didn't play AO in those years due to injuries. She would have been the big favourite to win those slams.

With a little bit more luck Graf could have had 3 or 4 Grand Slams.
Sadly it was not meant to be .......

Condi

stormholloway
05-01-2007, 02:46 PM
And Martina won almost three times the total slams Steffi won, and almost three times the total titles overall. And more single titles.

This is what I wrote in the other thread:

Graf has achieved much more than Seles. In my opinion, Graf was better than Seles. But achievements-wise, you seem to be taking all credit from Navratilova's. 59 slams and 345 titles! Come on!!

It's not that wacky of an idea to believe Martina was the GOAT!

If you believe Graf was the GOAT, great! But no matter what stats you give me, you won't change my mind, cause I have stats to counter your stats.

In my opinion, Martina was the Goat.
In yours, Steffi was the Goat

We're all happy now.

Andy

So do you think McEnroe was better than Sampras?

Andres
05-01-2007, 03:10 PM
So do you think McEnroe was better than Sampras?
No, cause we're talking about diff eras, and we can't compare the achievements like that.

Graff and Navratilova overlapped their careers for the most time in both of their primes.

(wow, that was some lousy english! :mrgreen: )

backhander
05-01-2007, 03:13 PM
So close and yet so far - she had to play Ms. Graf in the Wimbledon final.
Lost 2-6 1-6. An all-time record for #1 players in slam finals.

Condi

Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. That pretty much explains the lopsided score. It was commented that the Seles in the final was definitely not the Seles that had won the first 2 slams of the year. Not to take anything away from Graf, she played great, but don't act as if Seles was not even close to accomplishing a Grand Slam, she was one match away.

In any event, this thread is about Graf and Hingis, and I do say that Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime. I think Hingis had the better tennis mind, she just didn't have the athleticism and weapons of Graf.

laurie
05-01-2007, 03:14 PM
Honestly, I thought I was in www.wtaworld.com for a moment. Graf with her incredible forehand and athletic movement and great sliced backhand is legendary - she could also come over her backhand with topspin from time to time with great effect.

What sort of crazy question is this??

oscar_2424
05-01-2007, 03:26 PM
Steffi Graff, hands down.

i second that.

ilovecarlos
05-01-2007, 03:27 PM
Uh, all I have to say is that my vote goes to Steffi.....no arguments or anything, is that ok?:confused:

Andres
05-01-2007, 03:44 PM
i second that.
Stop seconding whatever I say! Dammit! :D

CEvertFan
05-01-2007, 05:11 PM
Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. That pretty much explains the lopsided score. It was commented that the Seles in the final was definitely not the Seles that had won the first 2 slams of the year. Not to take anything away from Graf, she played great, but don't act as if Seles was not even close to accomplishing a Grand Slam, she was one match away.

In any event, this thread is about Graf and Hingis, and I do say that Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime. I think Hingis had the better tennis mind, she just didn't have the athleticism and weapons of Graf.

I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.

backhander
05-01-2007, 08:26 PM
I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.

Yah, the forehand I think really holds Hingis back, the different in pace from her backhand to her forehand is pretty big. She'd fare much better from the baseline if her forehand could be struck as hard and as clean as her backhand.

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 09:32 PM
Well if you can use Graf's tabloid blackmail dilemna as an excuse to why she didn't win many slams from 1991-1993, I will mention what the tabloids did to Seles throughout the 1992 Wimbeldon, talking about her grunting and displaying gruntometers on the court, 2 players in the tourney also openly complained about it causing the umpire to ask Seles to tone down her grunting. Come the final Seles was hitting while suppressing her grunts, something she had done all her life. ....


Awwww!

Simply watch (and listen to!) Seles at her 0-6 1-6 Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi

Condoleezza
05-01-2007, 09:33 PM
I totally agree about what the press did to Seles during that Wimbledon and her decision to NOT grunt affected her against Graf in the final.

I also agree that Hingis had/has a great tennis mind kind of like Evert and Lenglen, but I don't think her groundstrokes were as good as Evert's particularly off the forehand side.

What do you know about the tennis mind of Lenglen?
Tell us!

Condi

backhander
05-01-2007, 09:43 PM
Awwww!

Simply watch (and listen to!) Seles at her 0-6 1-6 Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi

Fact, Graf seemed to benefit alot from Seles forced misfortunes.

CEvertFan
05-01-2007, 09:47 PM
What do you know about the tennis mind of Lenglen?
Tell us!

Condi

Probably what any of us do that are still alive today. WHAT WE'VE READ ABOUT HER.

lambielspins
05-01-2007, 09:51 PM
Fact, Graf seemed to benefit alot from Seles forced misfortunes.

Seles would never have won the 92 Wimbledon final. If she could barely beat Graf 10-8 in the 3rd on clay a month before that, she was always going to be hard pressed to even get a set vs Graf on grass in the Wimbledon final.

Actually the difference in their 92 matches at the French vs Wimbledon is about on par with 89:

89 French Open semis: Graf defeats Seles 6-3, 3-6, 6-3. 89 Wimbledon 4th round: Graf defeats Seles 6-1, 6-0

92 French Open final: Seles defeats Graf 6-2, 3-6, 10-8. 92 Wimbledon final: Graf defeats Seles 6-2, 6-1

The grunting thing is a silly footnote for people bored and wanting something trivial to talk about.

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 01:09 AM
Probably what any of us do that are still alive today. WHAT WE'VE READ ABOUT HER.

I have never read anything special on her "tennis mind".
She was by far the best tennis player in her time. The rest of the field consisted of some society girls. So she didn't need a great tennis mind. She sipped her cognac and went out to beat those chicks at will. Case closed.

Condi

CEvertFan
05-02-2007, 06:03 AM
I have never read anything special on her "tennis mind".
She was by far the best tennis player in her time. The rest of the field consisted of some society girls. So she didn't need a great tennis mind. She sipped her cognac and went out to beat those chicks at will. Case closed.

Condi

Here's a couple of things that I have read regarding Lenglen:

"She is a brilliant court general, conducting her attack with a keen eye on both the court and the gallery." - excerpt from a book called 'The Art of Lawn Tennis' by William T. Tilden
Yes THAT Tilden.


Ted Tinling, in an article in World Tennis Magazine back in the 80's, said that Lenglen played tennis like a chessmaster. I believe it was the issue where he picked the greatest woman player of all time.

So I am just reiterating what I've read.

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 06:08 AM
Here's a couple of things that I have read regarding Lenglen:

"She is a brilliant court general, conducting her attack with a keen eye on both the court and the gallery." - excerpt from a book called 'The Art of Lawn Tennis' by William T. Tilden
Yes THAT Tilden. ....

Which Tilden?

Condi

Andres
05-02-2007, 06:18 AM
Which Tilden?

Condi
Another attempt to deviate the attention from the subject. As usual ;)

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 06:28 AM
Another attempt to deviate the attention from the subject. As usual ;)

:cool:

Condi

Andres
05-02-2007, 06:33 AM
:cool:

Condi
Ahh don't worry. In verbal discussion, I tend to do the same thing. My father used to point me that out ;)

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 07:02 AM
Ahh don't worry. In verbal discussion, I tend to do the same thing. My father used to point me that out ;)


Back to the subject:

Graf in her prime was better than Hingis in her prime.


Condi

Andres
05-02-2007, 07:07 AM
We already stated that :mrgreen:

rommil
05-02-2007, 07:16 AM
We already stated that :mrgreen:

That's her method of believing things Andy. She repeats ideas over and over again until she believes it and she tries to employ that to other people. Yes Condi, Graf was better than Hingis at their prime.

CEvertFan
05-02-2007, 12:19 PM
Which Tilden?

Condi



Even though I know I am getting suckered here I will nevertheless answer. The Tilden I am referring to is Bill Tilden the tennis player and contemporary of Lenglen, who is undisputedly regarded as the best player of his time and some people have even suggested he's the best ever to have played the game. I have a one word suggestion for you- Google.

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 12:28 PM
Even though I know I am getting suckered here I will nevertheless answer. The Tilden I am referring to is Bill Tilden the tennis player and contemporary of Lenglen, who is undisputedly regarded as the best player of his time and some people have even suggested he's the best ever to have played the game. I have a one word suggestion for you- Google.

What would I do without you ...

:roll:


Condi

CEvertFan
05-02-2007, 12:34 PM
I can't believe that 5 people voted for Hingis who is a great player in her own right, but clearly not better than Steffi. That is just ridiculous. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Maybe they did it just to upset you Condi. ;)

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 12:49 PM
I can't believe that 5 people voted for Hingis who is a great player in her own right, but clearly not better than Steffi. That is just ridiculous. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Maybe they did it just to upset you Condi. ;)


Obviously 5 true American patriots ...

Condi

stormholloway
05-02-2007, 01:42 PM
No, cause we're talking about diff eras, and we can't compare the achievements like that.

Graff and Navratilova overlapped their careers for the most time in both of their primes.

(wow, that was some lousy english! :mrgreen: )

But you're comparing Nav's doubles titles with Graf. I think it's implied this is a matter of singles.

Graf has more singles slams and beat Navratilova in more slam finals.

Graf won the grand slam, the ultimate tennis achievement.

laurie
05-02-2007, 01:46 PM
This had had 74 replies! Why?

This shouldn't even be a discussion or have a poll.

Anyone who really studies Tennis must know that Hingis in her prime was not better than Graf's.

Graf took Womens Tennis to a new level with power, athleticism and courage, plus her legendary forehand.

I struggle to think how Hingis moved Womens tennis to a new level, other than having a good Tennis brain - Anna Chakvetadze has a good Tennis brain. Hingis doesn't have either power or athleticism and was left behind by Venus, Serena, Capriati, even Davenport (who had worse movement but much more power), then the two Belgians and the young Russians. Plus Hingis lost the 1999 French Open final against Graf when she was a set and a break up - Graf at that point hadn't won a slam since 1996. Not only that but just a month later Lindsay Davenport would not make the same mistake against Graf in the Wimbledon final.

I'm sorry to say Hingis fans but this is not worth discussing.

Condoleezza
05-02-2007, 01:54 PM
This had had 74 replies! Why?

This shouldn't even be a discussion or have a poll.

Anyone who really studies Tennis must know that Hingis in her prime was not better than Graf's.

Graf took Womens Tennis to a new level with power, athleticism and courage, plus her legendary forehand.

I struggle to think how Hingis moved Womens tennis to a new level, other than having a good Tennis brain - Anna Chakvetadze has a good Tennis brain. Hingis doesn't have either power or athleticism and was left behind by Venus, Serena, Capriati, even Davenport (who had worse movement but much more power), then the two Belgians and the young Russians. Plus Hingis lost the 1999 French Open final against Graf when she was a set and a break up - Graf at that point hadn't won a slam since 1996. Not only that but just a month later Lindsay Davenport would not make the same mistake against Graf in the Wimbledon final. ....

We have to grant Hingis, though, that Graf was far more motivated in the FO final than in Wimbledon. And we must not forget that Graf clobbered Davenport in the FO quarters.

Condi

Andres
05-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Obviously 5 true American patriots ...

Condi
Of course! Specially since Hingis is american!

ATPballkid
05-02-2007, 06:34 PM
Seles was in no way close to winning the Grand Slam in 92.

Condi

Consider how young Seles was in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 when she was CLEARLY the best player in women's tennis other than at Wimbledon.

This goes back to the statement about competition ... Graf could not compare with Seles in those months between the 1990 Tour Championships and the stabbing in April 1993 ... even as young as Seles was, she was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis and this was AFTER Graf had had her best years in women's tennis in 1987-1989.

ATPballkid
05-02-2007, 06:52 PM
Awwww!

Seles Wimbledon loss against Graf 2 years earlier.
No grunting and screaming. Because she was thoroughly thrashed. She always was mute when she had no chance to win.
Fact.

Condi

NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 02:10 AM
NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).


But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.
And beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches.
That alone prevents Seles from being called "dominant" even in 91-93.

So we can conclude that even at her highest peak and in Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


Condi

CEvertFan
05-03-2007, 06:33 PM
But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.
And beat Seles in 3 of 5 matches.
That alone prevents Seles from being called "dominant" even in 91-93.

So we can conclude that even at her highest peak and in Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


Condi

She indirectly dominated against Graf the same way Graf indirectly dominated against Martina because Steffi wasn't even making it to the finals to face off against Monica and the same thing was happening with the Martina/Steffi rivalry in the late 80's. Martina couldn't even make it to the finals to face Steffi more often than not. It's a big part of the reason that Martina and Steffi only played each other 18 times as opposed to a truly great rivalry ala Evert/Navratilova which stands at 80 matches.

If you are the #1 or #2 seed in a tournament and you haven't made it to the final then you haven't done your job.

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 08:11 PM
Graf's deepest slump Seles was not able to dominate against Graf.


Condi

Yet, Seles CLEARLY was the best tennis player in the women's game for the first half of the 1990s until she was stabbed by a fan of Steffi Graf

EZRA
05-03-2007, 08:17 PM
Federer has a losing record against NADAL yet he's not in a slump.

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 08:25 PM
But Graf won 2 of the previous 2 biggest titles in women's tennis.

Condi

Of course, she was ... and Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:00 PM
She indirectly dominated against Graf the same way Graf indirectly dominated against Martina because Steffi wasn't even making it to the finals to face off against Monica and the same thing was happening with the Martina/Steffi rivalry in the late 80's. Martina couldn't even make it to the finals to face Steffi more often than not. It's a big part of the reason that Martina and Steffi only played each other 18 times as opposed to a truly great rivalry ala Evert/Navratilova which stands at 80 matches.

If you are the #1 or #2 seed in a tournament and you haven't made it to the final then you haven't done your job.

Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.
In spring 1990 the Graf Blackmail Scandal began.
And Graf made only 4 of 12 major finals until end of 1992.

Of course the second-best player profited big-time ...


Condi

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:02 PM
Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.
In spring 1990 the Graf Blackmail Scandal began.
And Graf made only 4 of 12 major finals until end of 1992.

Of course the second-best player profited big-time ...


Condi

Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that.

The only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:04 PM
Of course, she was ... and Graf was #1 in women's tennis until Seles came and replaced her as #1 ... and Seles was #1 with no end in sight until one of your people stabbed Seles in the back with a knife after Seles had dominated 1991, 1992 and into 1993.

The end was clearly in sight.
Seles had a 58 pts. advantage in the rankings at the beginning of 1991.
In April 1993, just before the stabbing, only 21 pts.
Graf was closing the gap rapidly.

Seles's winning percentage had dropped considerably in the last 12 months before the stabbing (only 92 % compared to 94 % the year before).

OK, we can say that maybe Seles would have been able to stem the tide. Her performance post-95 (when she was in peak prime tennis age) suggests otherwise, though ....

Condi

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:07 PM
Seles's winning percentage had dropped considerably in the last 12 months before the stabbing (only 92 % compared to 94 % the year before).

OK, we can say that maybe Seles would have been able to stem the tide. Her performance post-95 (when she was in peak prime tennis age) suggests otherwise, though ....

Condi

Nope ... Steffi did not do this SINCE 1993.

Did you know that Seles won 10 of the 12 major titles between the 1990 WTA Tour Championships and the 1993 Australian Open before a Graf fan got tired of Seles being the #1 player in women's tennis and literally stabbed Monica Seles in the back with a sharp knife?

Graf lost to several different players to keep her from meeting up with Seles in most of those finals -- but it really did not matter which players beat Graf before the final rounds ... Seles was there to win the tournaments.

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:09 PM
Well, that's the point:
Graf had made 15 of 16 major finals between winter 1987 and spring 1990.

Condi

And the reason for this is .... ????? Navratilova and Evert were in their 30s and losing a step or two as they were getting closer to retirement when Graf was able to win in 1987-1989 without having to come across Monica Seles at her peak .... Seles at her peak was better than Graf had been at her peak in that short window of time in the late 1980s between Navratilova and Evert dominating into the their 30s during the mid 1980s and their retirements.

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:12 PM
The end was clearly in sight.
Seles had a 58 pts. advantage in the rankings at the beginning of 1991.
Condi

1990 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1991 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1991 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
.................................................. ........... Seles skipped the 1991 Wimbledon.
1991 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1991 WTA TOUR CHAMPION
1992 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION
1992 FRENCH OPEN CHAMPION
............................................... Seles was runnerup at the 1992 Wimbledon.
1992 U.S. OPEN CHAMPION
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN CHAMPION

Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place.

The ONLY way for someone to have retaken #1 from Seles was death of Seles or a career-ending injury, stabbing, accident, or terminal and career-ending illness.

Enter Gunther Parche.

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:13 PM
Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.
....


Monica won 8 slams since the Graf Blackmail Scandal started.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Graf competing before or after Steffi was derailed royally by the ugly scandal. That would leave Monica with 4 (of which she won 1 in 96 because Graf was out due to injury).

Seles's career was kick-started by the Graf Blackmail Scandal. Without it she would have been some sort of Mandlikova or Sanchez - a pain in the *** for the greats but not a really great player.

Condi

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:14 PM
Monica won 8 slams since the Graf Blackmail Scandal started.


Condi

Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:16 PM
....Seles was EASILY the best player of 1991, 1992 and 1993 until the stabbing took place. ....

Seles vs. Graf 1991-93:
2-3 H2H
0-2 Wimbledon wins

Sorry, most certainly not "easily" the best.
And that although Graf had a negative H2H against grandma Navi in those years .... :D :D :D

Condi

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:18 PM
Graf was closing the gap rapidly.

Condi

HERE is how far they were apart: MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS

SELES WON________________GRAF WON

1990 WTA Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
_________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 WTA Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
__________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 WTA Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:18 PM
Seles vs. Graf 1991-93:
2-3 H2H
0-2 Wimbledon wins

Sorry, most certainly not "easily" the best.
And that although Graf had a negative H2H against grandma Navi in those years .... :D :D :D

Condi

Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, Gunther/Condi?

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:21 PM
Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.
....


The point is that without the nasty Graf Blackmail Scandal of 1990/92 Graf would have continued to win 3 or 4 slams every year until the end of her career in 1999. Steffi would have ended it with about 45 slams. Sadly it was not to be ...

Condi

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:25 PM
Sure, as a teenager some 5 years younger than Graf in the early 1990s Monica Seles was CLEARLY the #1 player in women's tennis -- not only in the rankings, but also in her winning 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis during the span of November 1990 through the April stabbing of Seles by a jealous Graf fan.

What part of this are you missing, Gunther/Condi?

Question: What does winning an event have to do with winning it in the next years?
Answer: Almost nothing.

Condi

ATPballkid
05-03-2007, 09:32 PM
Question: What does winning an event have to do with winning it in the next years?
Answer: Almost nothing.

Condi

The fact remains Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a Graf fan LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Pretty sad for Graf and her fans to have that as such a huge part of her history.

Condoleezza
05-03-2007, 09:43 PM
The fact remains Seles won 10 of the 12 major singles titles before a Graf fan LITERALLY resorted to stabbing Monica Seles in the back with a knife.

Pretty sad for Graf and her fans to have that as such a huge part of her history.

No, it's just a footnote.
I have analysed almost a hundred of articles on Graf's retirement in 1999.
Only 2 mentioned the Seles stabbing ...

Condi

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 07:53 PM
I have analysed almost a hundred of articles on Graf's retirement in 1999.

Condi

nobody could stop graff once she had the help of parche's KNIFE.

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 07:54 PM
I have analysed almost a hundred of articles on Graf's retirement in 1999.Only 2 mentioned the Seles stabbing ...

Condi

Graff will always be known as an ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german to give her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE.

stormholloway
05-04-2007, 08:35 PM
That's ridiculous and distasteful. Great players never like to lose rivals in that way, or at all.

Condoleezza
05-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Graff will always be known as an ugly pathetic big nosed loser ....

Well, let's compare Seles and Graf - how they look on a tennis court ...

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/images/future_plumpers/monica_seles/msfat01.jpg
http://www.princerton.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf092.jpg

Condi

CanadianChic
05-04-2007, 11:29 PM
Graff will always be known as an ugly pathetic big nosed loser who because of a brutal criminal act by another german to give her the wins she could not get without the KNIFE.

Well, that's just plain impolite. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0011.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-msn-smileys.php)

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:34 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/furniture/in_depth/tennis/2002/wimbledon/legends/steffi_graf.jpg

http://www.tennisserver.com/lines/images/graf.jpg

http://www2.raisport.rai.it/news/sport/tennis/199905/25/374ac0d4027e4/SteffiGraf.jpg

:D

Condoleezza
05-04-2007, 11:40 PM
.....
Big nose Graff


http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/images/future_plumpers/monica_seles/msfat01.jpg
http://home1.gte.net/cpq1wzv4/jpegs/1990aoservingfinal.jpg

Condi

CEvertFan
05-04-2007, 11:42 PM
Well, let's compare Seles and Graf - how they look on a tennis court ...

http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/images/future_plumpers/monica_seles/msfat01.jpg
http://www.princerton.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf092.jpg

Condi

That is just so wrong Condi.

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:42 PM
http://i.esmas.com/image/0/000/003/764/graf_N.jpg:D

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051227/051227_seles.hmedium.jpg

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:45 PM
http://www.canoe.ca/SlamTennisGrafRetiresImages/graf_8.jpg

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:47 PM
http://www.chl.ca/SlamTennisGrafRetiresImages/graf_17.jpg:D :D

Condoleezza
05-04-2007, 11:47 PM
http://www.canoe.ca/SlamTennisGrafRetiresImages/graf_8.jpg

A nice picture. This smile is indeed incomparable!
Thanks.

Here are two more.
http://www.princerton.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf078.jpg
http://www.wtnphotos.com/data/632/Steffi_Graf_162_.jpg

Condi

CEvertFan
05-04-2007, 11:47 PM
Something nicer to look at. Those photos of Graf scared me!


http://www.geocities.com/rredman0727/Evert2007.jpg

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:50 PM
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40168000/jpg/_40168249_graf.jpg:D

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:51 PM
http://www.holdesfratzen.de/images/galerie/steffi-graf%20Kopie.jpg


:D :D :D

CEvertFan
05-04-2007, 11:53 PM
That one is SOOOOOOO FUNNY!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:55 PM
http://images.absolutenow.com/rp/6130_seles_43044.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/ktwtennis/monicabarcelona2.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/ktwtennis/certor1.jpg

http://www.sonyericssonwtatour.com/3/global/photos_rx/seles_7807_rx.jpg

FedSampras
05-04-2007, 11:58 PM
http://www.infotennis.com/photos/joueuses/images/Seles%20006%20232%20RG_jpg.jpg

http://www.modem-magazine.com/200307/images/sports/Seles_01.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1105000/images/_1108335_seles_300.jpg

Condoleezza
05-05-2007, 12:06 AM
http://www.dimensionsmagazine.com/images/future_plumpers/monica_seles/msfat03.jpg

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 12:09 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/furniture/in_depth/tennis/2002/wimbledon/legends/steffi_graf.jpg


http://www.chl.ca/SlamTennisGrafRetiresImages/graf_17.jpg

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 12:16 AM
http://www.portraits-karikaturen.de/044-03_Steffi-Graf-Paris-Sportkarikatur.jpg

http://www.tikonline.de/galerie/steffi_graf/002.jpg

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 12:24 AM
http://www.monicaseles.de/monica/new/monicanew24.jpg

Condoleezza
05-05-2007, 12:31 AM
[QUOTE=FedSampras;1423723]

A nice caricature (I like it!) and a photo taken with a frog-eye camera.

These one are better though:

http://www.princerton.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf116.jpg
http://www.princerton.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf014.jpg
http://www.ungwada.fsnet.co.uk/steffigraf439.jpg

This woman is unbelievable sexy. Must have been bitter for Seles to be in the shadows of Steffi - slam-wise and sex-wise ....

Condi

ATPballkid
05-05-2007, 01:40 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/furniture/in_depth/tennis/2002/wimbledon/legends/steffi_graf.jpg


http://www.chl.ca/SlamTennisGrafRetiresImages/graf_17.jpg

ROFLMAO!!!

Condoleezza
05-05-2007, 02:53 AM
ROFLMAO!!!


This gives women's professional sports a bad image ...:D
http://www2.raisport.rai.it/news/sport/tennis/199708/04/33e5e2b50739e/MonicaSeles.jpg

Condi

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 07:10 AM
http://www.chrisevert.net/seles05exo.jpg

http://211.23.191.125/images/sport/Tennis_Navratilova_&_Seles.jpg

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 07:22 AM
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/naoki/www/Steffi_smile.jpg


Petr Korda? :D :D :D

rommil
05-05-2007, 07:44 AM
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/naoki/www/Steffi_smile.jpg


Petr Korda? :D :D :D

Tax cheat...

Wingshellphelp
05-05-2007, 09:42 AM
Graf, no doubt.

Wingshellphelp
05-05-2007, 09:43 AM
This gives women's professional sports a bad image ...:D
http://www2.raisport.rai.it/news/sport/tennis/199708/04/33e5e2b50739e/MonicaSeles.jpg

Condi

and this doesn't?

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/naoki/www/Steffi_smile.jpg

EZRA
05-05-2007, 09:58 AM
This is getting ridiculous

TheNatural
05-05-2007, 01:03 PM
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t232/T232233A.jpg

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20001008/1mon.gif

http://www.magixl.com/caric./starsb/seles.gif

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1595000/images/_1595873_seles300.jpg

abdjeter2
05-05-2007, 01:13 PM
graff easily.

FedSampras
05-05-2007, 01:43 PM
http://www.holdesfratzen.de/images/galerie/steffi-graf%20Kopie.jpg

Andres
05-05-2007, 03:26 PM
Condoleezza was banned!

Wingshellphelp
05-05-2007, 04:12 PM
Condoleezza was banned!

oh my god
the best moment of my tt life

laurie
05-05-2007, 05:48 PM
Is Condoleeza really banned?

CEvertFan
05-05-2007, 05:51 PM
Is Condoleeza really banned?


Yes. Look at any of his/her posts and see for yourself. It says banned under the name.

laurie
05-05-2007, 06:36 PM
Condoleeza is the most devisive person I've ever come across on Tennis Warehouse.

Wingshellphelp
05-05-2007, 06:57 PM
Condoleeza is the most devisive person I've ever come across on Tennis Warehouse.

certainly. I agree. they should ban her ip if they have not(they might have just banned the account/email)she would certainly come back

rommil
05-05-2007, 09:25 PM
certainly. I agree. they should ban her ip if they have not(they might have just banned the account/email)she would certainly come back

Condi will find a way to get through here knowing how Condi itches for any attention and arguement about Graf. I was seriously pondering that if Condi ever made it to the US at this time she would probably camp out of Graf's home or stalk her.

obanaghan
05-06-2007, 07:47 AM
Graf has better results by far.

That said though one should give fair credit to Hingis for a stellar career. If there were a switch to wood rackets she would definitely demonstrate that footwork, thinking and consistency matter. The game has changed but only she would not disappear if things changed back. I am highly suspicious how well a lot of the "big babe" tennis players would fare with a Jack Kramer racket. Maybe they should mix tennis up a bit and in addition to having different surfaces that favor one style of play versus another, have different racket seasons where 2008 would be wood only, 2009 graphite etc.

laurie
05-06-2007, 07:57 AM
I think everyone here would agree that Hingis has had an incredible career and we all have respect for her.

But unfortunately I think it's a little typical of Tennis forums where people want to be provocative.

Why bring up such a poll and question? It's not fair on Hingis. Graf has won literally 4 times more than Hingis - and there is a good reason for that, I won't go into the reasons again because they have all been discussed.

Maybe a comparsion between Hingis and say Tracy Austin is more realistic - two teenage prodigies who had health problems and had to reire early or was never the same player again. The clincher - neither player were natural athletes.

In the game of Tennis, 90% of the very best champions for the ages are the very best athletes, they go hand in hand. The only exceptions I can think of are players like Andre Agassi and Chris Evert and Monica Seles - where athletic wise they were just a notch below their signficant rivals but are still legends.
I hope we allow Hingis to be Hingis and stop unfairly comparing her to a legend like Graf.

rommil
05-06-2007, 10:15 AM
Graf has better results by far.

That said though one should give fair credit to Hingis for a stellar career. If there were a switch to wood rackets she would definitely demonstrate that footwork, thinking and consistency matter. The game has changed but only she would not disappear if things changed back. I am highly suspicious how well a lot of the "big babe" tennis players would fare with a Jack Kramer racket. Maybe they should mix tennis up a bit and in addition to having different surfaces that favor one style of play versus another, have different racket seasons where 2008 would be wood only, 2009 graphite etc.

Though Graf definitely had better results on paper, it was undeniable to acknowledge Hingis' genius and flair when she was on top. I wasn't fond of her bratty and cocky attitude but she was amazing to watch when she played, the way she constructed her points.

CEvertFan
05-06-2007, 04:40 PM
Though Graf definitely had better results on paper, it was undeniable to acknowledge Hingis' genius and flair when she was on top. I wasn't fond of her bratty and cocky attitude but she was amazing to watch when she played, the way she constructed her points.


I agree. Hingis is the best thinker out there since Evert in her prime.

EZRA
05-06-2007, 06:03 PM
Come to think of it.. Hingis doesn't have the most extraordinary shots out there.. but she utilizes and maximizes the little arsenal that she have through her uncanny strategy and shotmaking, outplaying and out-maneuvering more powerful opponents ... that's what makes her great.

backhander
05-06-2007, 10:54 PM
Come to think of it.. Hingis doesn't have the most extraordinary shots out there.. but she utilizes and maximizes the little arsenal that she have through her uncanny strategy and shotmaking, outplaying and out-maneuvering more powerful opponents ... that's what makes her great.

definitely a great thinker on the court. that's what made her fun to watch (when she wasn't being a brat). The only item of hers that i would call a weapon (outside of her mind) was her net game. Other than that her serve was weak, forehand was weak, and she relatively had less power than most of the top players. It was her backhand and net game that gave her a little bit of offensibility if she needed it. Otherwise it is pretty amazing how she was able to play with ther big hitters with her relatively weak forehand and serve.

anointedone
05-08-2007, 12:37 AM
Hingis is by far the better player. Late in 96 when she was nowhere near her prime, in fact she was 15 most of the matches, she was still such a hard opponent for Graf in her dominant prime. Beating Graf on clay in 3 sets in Rome. Then having 5 set points on Graf in the 1st set of the U.S Open semis, if she had taken one she probably wins the match and the U.S Open that year. Then taking Graf to 5 sets in the year end womens event final, a match she would have probably won in 5 sets without cramps since she was rolling in the 4th set up 5-1 with all kinds of momentum when she started to cramp. Only in the Wimbledon 4th round did Graf win relatively easily.

Graf in 97 was scared to be beaten by Hingis so her injuries mysteriously got worse, and she kept losing to avoid getting beaten by Hingis. If Hingis was 16-26 while Graf was 17-27, and faced the competition Graf had she would have atleast 30 slams and a record number of U.S Opens, Wimbledons, and French Opens. Every single slam Graf won Hingis also would have won, there isnt a single one Graf won you can say Hingis likely would not have won vs the same opposition, but she probably wins more too. I dont see Hingis losing a U.S Open final to Sabatini or Sanchez Vicario had she been in her prime then instead of now. I dont see Hingis letting Sanchez Vicario win either of her first 2 French Opens had she been in her prime then. I dont see Hingis letting Garrison and McNeil stopping her from winning a couple of Wimbledon titles, that went to 33 year old Navratilova and Conchita Martinez because of Garrison and McNeil. Hingis may have also been better able to snag a few more slams in 86-87 with an aging Navratilova and Evert then the mere 1 Graf managed. Hingis dominated post-stabbing Seles so thoroughly she could have managed to win a couple of the non-Wimbledon slams in 91-92 all which went to Seles and none to Graf. Had Hingis managed to be healthy enough to play the 95 and 96 Australian Opens, which Graf wasnt she may have won 1 or both of those. Once she hit her prime she dominated post-stabbing Seles which 96 Australian Open Seles was, and she dominated Pierce throughout their careers.

Unfortunately for Hingis she got stuck in the era of the most brute power in womens tennis in history with the Williams and Davenport. These players overpowered her and dispirited her, and kept her from winning the 30+ slams she would be approaching by now had she been born 11 years sooner.

caulcano
05-08-2007, 04:08 AM
I agree. Hingis is the best thinker out there since Evert in her prime.

and mardy as hell.

caulcano
05-08-2007, 04:10 AM
Hingis is by far the better player. Late in 96 when she was nowhere near her prime, in fact she was 15 most of the matches, she was still such a hard opponent for Graf in her dominant prime. Beating Graf on clay in 3 sets in Rome. Then having 5 set points on Graf in the 1st set of the U.S Open semis, if she had taken one she probably wins the match and the U.S Open that year. Then taking Graf to 5 sets in the year end womens event final, a match she would have probably won in 5 sets without cramps since she was rolling in the 4th set up 5-1 with all kinds of momentum when she started to cramp. Only in the Wimbledon 4th round did Graf win relatively easily.

Graf in 97 was scared to be beaten by Hingis so her injuries mysteriously got worse, and she kept losing to avoid getting beaten by Hingis. If Hingis was 16-26 while Graf was 17-27, and faced the competition Graf had she would have atleast 30 slams and a record number of U.S Opens, Wimbledons, and French Opens. Every single slam Graf won Hingis also would have won, there isnt a single one Graf won you can say Hingis likely would not have won vs the same opposition, but she probably wins more too. I dont see Hingis losing a U.S Open final to Sabatini or Sanchez Vicario had she been in her prime then instead of now. I dont see Hingis letting Sanchez Vicario win either of her first 2 French Opens had she been in her prime then. I dont see Hingis letting Garrison and McNeil stopping her from winning a couple of Wimbledon titles, that went to 33 year old Navratilova and Conchita Martinez because of Garrison and McNeil. Hingis may have also been better able to snag a few more slams in 86-87 with an aging Navratilova and Evert then the mere 1 Graf managed. Hingis dominated post-stabbing Seles so thoroughly she could have managed to win a couple of the non-Wimbledon slams in 91-92 all which went to Seles and none to Graf. Had Hingis managed to be healthy enough to play the 95 and 96 Australian Opens, which Graf wasnt she may have won 1 or both of those. Once she hit her prime she dominated post-stabbing Seles which 96 Australian Open Seles was, and she dominated Pierce throughout their careers.

Unfortunately for Hingis she got stuck in the era of the most brute power in womens tennis in history with the Williams and Davenport. These players overpowered her and dispirited her, and kept her from winning the 30+ slams she would be approaching by now had she been born 11 years sooner.

Are you a Graf hater or Hingis lover because your views are so biased it's laughable.

EZRA
05-08-2007, 04:53 AM
Hingis is a great player but hardly a better player when compared to Steffi.

Anointedone... Hingis only won twice against Steffi (both wins went to distance) , while her other win was a default, w/o ..
And there's no way Hingis could've beaten a pre-stabbing Seles... especially on the slams. Pre-stabbing Seles was more vicious, and way faster than the taller and heavier post-stabbing Seles.

Your post is so unbelievably biased... even worse than Condoleezza.

CEvertFan
05-08-2007, 02:50 PM
Hingis is by far the better player. Late in 96 when she was nowhere near her prime, in fact she was 15 most of the matches, she was still such a hard opponent for Graf in her dominant prime. Beating Graf on clay in 3 sets in Rome. Then having 5 set points on Graf in the 1st set of the U.S Open semis, if she had taken one she probably wins the match and the U.S Open that year. Then taking Graf to 5 sets in the year end womens event final, a match she would have probably won in 5 sets without cramps since she was rolling in the 4th set up 5-1 with all kinds of momentum when she started to cramp. Only in the Wimbledon 4th round did Graf win relatively easily.

Graf in 97 was scared to be beaten by Hingis so her injuries mysteriously got worse, and she kept losing to avoid getting beaten by Hingis. If Hingis was 16-26 while Graf was 17-27, and faced the competition Graf had she would have atleast 30 slams and a record number of U.S Opens, Wimbledons, and French Opens. Every single slam Graf won Hingis also would have won, there isnt a single one Graf won you can say Hingis likely would not have won vs the same opposition, but she probably wins more too. I dont see Hingis losing a U.S Open final to Sabatini or Sanchez Vicario had she been in her prime then instead of now. I dont see Hingis letting Sanchez Vicario win either of her first 2 French Opens had she been in her prime then. I dont see Hingis letting Garrison and McNeil stopping her from winning a couple of Wimbledon titles, that went to 33 year old Navratilova and Conchita Martinez because of Garrison and McNeil. Hingis may have also been better able to snag a few more slams in 86-87 with an aging Navratilova and Evert then the mere 1 Graf managed. Hingis dominated post-stabbing Seles so thoroughly she could have managed to win a couple of the non-Wimbledon slams in 91-92 all which went to Seles and none to Graf. Had Hingis managed to be healthy enough to play the 95 and 96 Australian Opens, which Graf wasnt she may have won 1 or both of those. Once she hit her prime she dominated post-stabbing Seles which 96 Australian Open Seles was, and she dominated Pierce throughout their careers.

Unfortunately for Hingis she got stuck in the era of the most brute power in womens tennis in history with the Williams and Davenport. These players overpowered her and dispirited her, and kept her from winning the 30+ slams she would be approaching by now had she been born 11 years sooner.

I don't agree with any of this because when Graf first started playing Hingis she was already past her prime. Giving someone a tough match is a totally different thing to actually beating them. Even a past her prime Graf has a winning record over Hingis, which stands at 7-2 in Graf's favor.

This is how I see their matches played out if they played one another during their prime:

Seles would have overwhelmed her with POWER just like the Williams sisters, Davenport and Capriati did, Graf would have used her powerful forehand and footspeed to beat Hingis just like she did at the FO 1999, Martina would have served and volleyed her off the court and Evert would have definitely outlasted and outrallied her from the baseline and also would have out-thought Hingis as well.

Hingis is a great player and may have gotten a win or two here and there ala Sanchez-Vicario or Mandlikova but she is not in the same league with Evert, Navratilova, Graf or Seles. The early promise that she showed to become one of the all time greats never came to fruition.

anointedone
05-08-2007, 07:52 PM
I don't agree with any of this because when Graf first started playing Hingis she was already past her prime. Giving someone a tough match is a totally different thing to actually beating them. Even a past her prime Graf has a winning record over Hingis, which stands at 7-2 in Graf's favor.

This is how I see their matches played out if they played one another during their prime:

Seles would have overwhelmed her with POWER just like the Williams sisters, Davenport and Capriati did, Graf would have used her powerful forehand and footspeed to beat Hingis just like she did at the FO 1999, Martina would have served and volleyed her off the court and Evert would have definitely outlasted and outrallied her from the baseline and also would have out-thought Hingis as well.

Hingis is a great player and may have gotten a win or two here and there ala Sanchez-Vicario or Mandlikova but she is not in the same league with Evert, Navratilova, Graf or Seles. The early promise that she showed to become one of the all time greats never came to fruition.

You are way off base in saying Graf was the one past her prime when she first started playing Hingis. Graf was dominating tennis the first 2 years she played Hingis, and Hingis was mostly 14 or 15 years old and just starting on tour. Graf played 2 of her 9 matches with Hingis in 1995. Graf won all 3 time she played in 1995 and Hingis was 14. Graf played 4 of her 9 matches with Hingis in 1996 and Hingis was 15 for 3 of those 4, just turned 16 for the last, only made the top 10 late in the year and made her first ever slam semi at the U.S Open that year. So 6 of 9 matches were when Graf was in her prime, and Hingis was not.

Despite Graf clearly being in her prime and Hingis clearly not for those 4 1996 matches Hingis was a handful. Graf lost to Hingis on clay at the Italian Open.
Graf beat Hingis easily at Wimbledon. Graf had to save 5 set points vs Hingis in the U.S Open semis. Hingis took Graf to 5 sets in a loss in the year end Championships, despite cramping halfway through the 4th set when up 5-1.

Using that French Open win for Graf as a good reference point is a bit of a joke if you are trying to argue in Graf's favor. Hingis was dominating that match and the crowd got involved and were downright malicious, and helped to turn the whole match around. Hingis had the match firmly in control and should have won 6-4, 6-4, but let the crowd angst towards her affect her, and she fell apart. She certainly wasnt "overpowered" by Graf in that match.

How would Hingis have done vs those players you mention in their primes, other then Graf? It is hard to say but Graf won most of her slams vs an older Navratilova and Evert, a post-stabbing Seles, or players like Sanchez, Novotna, Sabatini, all of who Hingis would own anyway.

WestNott
05-08-2007, 08:14 PM
I would take Graf for sure. Graf has that knifing slice, great serve, and amazing movement all coupled with the mind. Martina has all the variety, court sense, and ability to play like a champion at the right times. Though the matches would be close, Graf can always knife the slice low to the Hingis semi-westergrip forehand which opens things up. The bottom line is Graf wouldn't make too many errors and Hingis would be forced to go for more than she is comfortable with- the only way I see Hingis winning on a consistent basis is if she gets in better shape. Graf would stay out there all day to win a point, even if it required 20 slices in a row crosscourt.

CEvertFan
05-10-2007, 03:16 AM
You are way off base in saying Graf was the one past her prime when she first started playing Hingis. Graf was dominating tennis the first 2 years she played Hingis, and Hingis was mostly 14 or 15 years old and just starting on tour. Graf played 2 of her 9 matches with Hingis in 1995. Graf won all 3 time she played in 1995 and Hingis was 14. Graf played 4 of her 9 matches with Hingis in 1996 and Hingis was 15 for 3 of those 4, just turned 16 for the last, only made the top 10 late in the year and made her first ever slam semi at the U.S Open that year. So 6 of 9 matches were when Graf was in her prime, and Hingis was not.

Despite Graf clearly being in her prime and Hingis clearly not for those 4 1996 matches Hingis was a handful. Graf lost to Hingis on clay at the Italian Open.
Graf beat Hingis easily at Wimbledon. Graf had to save 5 set points vs Hingis in the U.S Open semis. Hingis took Graf to 5 sets in a loss in the year end Championships, despite cramping halfway through the 4th set when up 5-1.

Using that French Open win for Graf as a good reference point is a bit of a joke if you are trying to argue in Graf's favor. Hingis was dominating that match and the crowd got involved and were downright malicious, and helped to turn the whole match around. Hingis had the match firmly in control and should have won 6-4, 6-4, but let the crowd angst towards her affect her, and she fell apart. She certainly wasnt "overpowered" by Graf in that match.

How would Hingis have done vs those players you mention in their primes, other then Graf? It is hard to say but Graf won most of her slams vs an older Navratilova and Evert, a post-stabbing Seles, or players like Sanchez, Novotna, Sabatini, all of who Hingis would own anyway.


Hingis may have been a handful for Graf but she still didn't win but 2 matches against Graf in their short rivalry. Steffi was having injury problems even in 1995 and 96 before they got more serious from 97 onward. Like I said in my earlier post, giving someone a tough match is completely different from actually beating them.

As for the 5 set YEC final that went to 5 sets, Hingis lost two sets at love in that match. She gave Graf a bit of a tussle for a while but it wasnt ever really in doubt that Graf would win the match, and yes I did see the match and am aware of her cramping in the 5th set and the reason she cramped was because Steffi ran her into the ground. Final score was 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0 to Graf.

I have the 99 FO final on video tape and I am well aware of the crowd and how they reacted to Hingis but in the last set and a half Graf definitely raised the level of her game and was hitting winner after winner or Hingis made an error. Hingis did play superbly in the 1st set and a half and I also agree that she did indeed fall apart a little, but that is her own fault because if you're a tennis pro whose mind is supposed to be your strongest weapon, well then you just don't let distractions bother you and fall apart like she did.

One last thing: If you think that Hingis could beat Navratilova, Evert or Seles in their PRIME, and for the record I don't think Seles was EVER AGAIN in her prime once she returned from the stabbing, then you have lost your mind. Even though I think Hingis is a great player, all three of those all time best players would have eaten her for lunch, just like the Williams sisters and Davenport do/did.

anointedone
05-10-2007, 05:05 AM
Hingis may have been a handful for Graf but she still didn't win but 2 matches against Graf in their short rivalry. Steffi was having injury problems even in 1995 and 96 before they got more serious from 97 onward. Like I said in my earlier post, giving someone a tough match is completely different from actually beating them.

Giving someone a tough match is completely different then actually beating them if both players are in their prime. My point is that in 1995-1996 Graf was in her prime and Hingis was not in hers, and she was still a handful for Graf. The fact Hingis at 14 or 15 was a handful for Graf in her prime is significant, and the difficulty of the matches is signifcant when put in that context.

As for the 5 set YEC final that went to 5 sets, Hingis lost two sets at love in that match. She gave Graf a bit of a tussle for a while but it wasnt ever really in doubt that Graf would win the match, and yes I did see the match and am aware of her cramping in the 5th set and the reason she cramped was because Steffi ran her into the ground. Final score was 6-3 4-6 6-0 4-6 6-0 to Graf.

Point taken, but since it was still a 5 setter read above.

I have the 99 FO final on video tape and I am well aware of the crowd and how they reacted to Hingis but in the last set and a half Graf definitely raised the level of her game and was hitting winner after winner or Hingis made an error. Hingis did play superbly in the 1st set and a half and I also agree that she did indeed fall apart a little, but that is her own fault because if you're a tennis pro whose mind is supposed to be your strongest weapon, well then you just don't let distractions bother you and fall apart like she did.

It is easier to say that watching on TV at home then being out in front of a packed stadium when they turn on you like. Alot of people blame Serena's loss to Justine Henin in the 2003 French Open semis on the crowd, but the crowd were much worse to Hingis in the 1999 French Open final, and she was much more clearly in control of that match then Serena the Justine match.

One last thing: If you think that Hingis could beat Navratilova, Evert or Seles in their PRIME, and for the record I don't think Seles was EVER AGAIN in her prime once she returned from the stabbing, then you have lost your mind. Even though I think Hingis is a great player, all three of those all time best players would have eaten her for lunch, just like the Williams sisters and Davenport do/did.

To just make a sweeping statement like the Williams and Davenport "ate Hingis for lunch" is completely outrageous. If you take away Serena's 2 losses to Hingis in 1998, and only count their matches from 1999-onwards Serena's edge is still a very competitive 7-4. It could also be argued in some of those laters matches Hingis was not her best anymore(it is 7-6 Serena only counting the two 98 matches). Hingis leads Venus 11-10. If you take away their 8 97-98 matches, and only start in 1999 when Venus first became a huge contender then it is a very competitive 8-5 for Venus, and once again Hingis herself probably was not her best in some later matches. Davenport leads Hingis 14-11 head to head already. Lets eliminate their 95-97 matches, and only start in 98, it would be 11-6 Davenport, still far from "eating for lunch". Yes once those players matured and got their strongest they had an edge but Hingis was very competitive and got her share of wins.

Secondly this is a comparision between Graf and Hingis. Graf did not win hardly any of her slams vs Navratilova or Evert or Seles in their "primes". When Navratilova was still in her prime in 1986 and 1987, Graf was only 1 slam which was the French Open on clay in 1987. She had match points in the U.S Open semis in 1986 vs Navratilova, and would have beaten Sukova in the final probably, but like you are saying more or less "coming close means nothing, only winning does". Evert and Graf were never in their primes together. In Seles's prime of 1990-1992 Graf won only 3 slams. She won the 1990 Australian Open which Seles did not play, the 1991 Wimbledon which Seles also did not play but was on "grass" so she probably wins anyway, and the 1992 Wimbledon over Seles on "grass". She was close in the 1992 French final vs Seles but wasnt it you basically saying "coming close means nothing, only winning does." So all Graf showed is she could only win a slam with Navratilova or Seles in their prime on their worst surface, grass for Seles and clay for Navratilova.

Also since Graf in her prime was having trouble with young Hingis, and you consider Graf an "all time greatest" it seems even sillier for you to assume Navratilova, Evert, or Seles would have an easy time with her if Graf wasnt able to even when Hingis was an underdeveloped 14-15 year old.

suwanee4712
05-10-2007, 09:47 AM
I would take Graf for sure. Graf has that knifing slice, great serve, and amazing movement all coupled with the mind. Martina has all the variety, court sense, and ability to play like a champion at the right times. Though the matches would be close, Graf can always knife the slice low to the Hingis semi-westergrip forehand which opens things up. The bottom line is Graf wouldn't make too many errors and Hingis would be forced to go for more than she is comfortable with- the only way I see Hingis winning on a consistent basis is if she gets in better shape. Graf would stay out there all day to win a point, even if it required 20 slices in a row crosscourt.

It's good to see someone look at Steffi's slice backhand as a strength. Because it really was a strength. She used it to do more than just stay in rallies. She used it to manuever opponents around the court to get a short ball or a ball in the middle of the court so that she could hit her vicious forehand. It was a perfect set up shot as well as a great shot to keep her in rallies vs. other power players. Which is a gear not shared by most two handed players.

People have forgotten the strengths of a good one-handed backhand and that's a shame. Federer and Sampras provided us with great examples of that. And while both Steffi and Martina's backhands were criticized. But both developed excellent topspin backhands. I tend to think their backhands were criticized, not because they were weak. But because their forehands were so strong by comparison.

Then you have players like McEnroe, Sabatini, Mandlikova, Edberg, Larissa Neiland, and Catarina Lindqvist. Each of those players had matches where they would be just as apt to hit a one-handed backhand winner by you in a baseline rally as they would from the forehand side.

rommil
05-10-2007, 09:53 AM
It's good to see someone look at Steffi's slice backhand as a strength. Because it really was a strength. She used it to do more than just stay in rallies. She used it to manuever opponents around the court to get a short ball or a ball in the middle of the court so that she could hit her vicious forehand. It was a perfect set up shot as well as a great shot to keep her in rallies vs. other power players. Which is a gear not shared by most two handed players.

People have forgotten the strengths of a good one-handed backhand and that's a shame. Federer and Sampras provided us with great examples of that. And while both Steffi and Martina's backhands were criticized. But both developed excellent topspin backhands. I tend to think their backhands were criticized, not because they were weak. But because their forehands were so strong by comparison.

Then you have players like McEnroe, Sabatini, Mandlikova, Edberg, Larissa Neiland, and Catarina Lindqvist. Each of those players had matches where they would be just as apt to hit a one-handed backhand winner by you in a baseline rally as they would from the forehand side.
I agree on it being a strength but you can hardly call that shot a weapon when you rarely hit a winning/passing shot.Graf benefited from her backhand in an era where not a lot of players were consistently able to exploit that kind of play. She can afford to run around her backhand then, well primarily from her speed, but against a player who can consistently hit deep and hard, then Graf would be in a predicament. It is an interesting thought on how Graf would adapt her game against todays players if she played or if she had used the same tactic how well she would do with it.I really think her unorthodox forehand and running around her backhand played a major factor in her injuries.

backhander
05-10-2007, 10:00 AM
It's good to see someone look at Steffi's slice backhand as a strength. Because it really was a strength. She used it to do more than just stay in rallies. She used it to manuever opponents around the court to get a short ball or a ball in the middle of the court so that she could hit her vicious forehand. It was a perfect set up shot as well as a great shot to keep her in rallies vs. other power players. Which is a gear not shared by most two handed players.

People have forgotten the strengths of a good one-handed backhand and that's a shame. Federer and Sampras provided us with great examples of that. And while both Steffi and Martina's backhands were criticized. But both developed excellent topspin backhands. I tend to think their backhands were criticized, not because they were weak. But because their forehands were so strong by comparison.

Then you have players like McEnroe, Sabatini, Mandlikova, Edberg, Larissa Neiland, and Catarina Lindqvist. Each of those players had matches where they would be just as apt to hit a one-handed backhand winner by you in a baseline rally as they would from the forehand side.

It's funny how now i do see Steffi's backhand not as a weakness anymore. I think when she played against power players like Seles, Capriati who could pound and pick on the backhand it made her vulnerable. However, her backhand was such a consistent shot that if you didn't press it, it always came back with pretty good bite.

It's something that you don't see anymore, and I guess that's why I appreciate it more now. She had a classic game with a modern flare.

bluegrasser
05-10-2007, 10:04 AM
The French Open tells it all - Graf was at the end and Hingis was still in her prime, and guess who won -SG

suwanee4712
05-10-2007, 11:40 AM
It's funny how now i do see Steffi's backhand not as a weakness anymore. I think when she played against power players like Seles, Capriati who could pound and pick on the backhand it made her vulnerable. However, her backhand was such a consistent shot that if you didn't press it, it always came back with pretty good bite.

It's something that you don't see anymore, and I guess that's why I appreciate it more now. She had a classic game with a modern flare.

Steffi was also a transition era player in terms of the oncoming power game brought about by the changes in racquet technology. She learned the game with a wood racquet even though she played her career entirely with a modern racquet. Seles, Capriati, etc. probably didn't spend much time at all with wood. I think all of that greatly influences how one plays. We all adapt our games to what we know know at the time.

I would agree with Rommil when he says that Steffi's backhand wasn't a weapon. But I still think of it as a good strategic set up shot. To make it a weakness, you really had to press Steffi. Which means approaching to the backhand and forcing her to come up with winners (like Novotna or Martina), or by using power and placement to get her off balance (like Seles and Capriati). Steffi did well fending the latter tactic off by keeping her balls extremely low. She wore a lot of two-handed players' wrists out by hitting that slice low to them forcing them to use more topspin and less power while hitting the ball just as hard.

I could be wrong. But that's how I saw it.

CEvertFan
05-10-2007, 03:09 PM
I would agree with the opinions presented about Graf's backhand. It wasn't so much a weapon but a great shot that was enabled her to stay in rallies and to set up her powerful forehand. I have watched Graf throughout her career and she did hit winners and passing shots from the slice backhand but mostly she hit winners from the forehand. I also agree that the best way to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power and not let her run around and hit the forehand.

During 96-98 I thought Hingis would go on to be one of the all time greats because she showed so much promise but that early promise that she showed against Graf was never fulfilled and I think her level of play went down more often than it went up as her career went on. Both Williams sisters aren't the players they once were when they were regularly beating everyone and when they play thses days you never know what you're going to see when they play, and more often than not it's a loss and not a win. I could see Hingis, even as she is now, beating them both these days.

I still stand by my statement that Evert, Navratilova and Seles in their prime would beat Hingis regularly. Against those three she would be equivalent to a Mandlikova or a Sanchez-Vicario, getting an occasional win but mostly losing.

anointedone
05-10-2007, 04:01 PM
I would agree with the opinions presented about Graf's backhand. It wasn't so much a weapon but a great shot that was enabled her to stay in rallies and to set up her powerful forehand. I have watched Graf throughout her career and she did hit winners and passing shots from the slice backhand but mostly she hit winners from the forehand. I also agree that the best way to beat Graf was to overwhelm the backhand with power and not let her run around and hit the forehand.

During 96-98 I thought Hingis would go on to be one of the all time greats because she showed so much promise but that early promise that she showed against Graf was never fulfilled and I think her level of play went down more often than it went up as her career went on. Both Williams sisters aren't the players they once were when they were regularly beating everyone and when they play thses days you never know what you're going to see when they play, and more often than not it's a loss and not a win. I could see Hingis, even as she is now, beating them both these days.

So you are going to discount any of Hingis's wins before a certain point vs the Williams, and after a certain point? My we are getting selective. As I look at your username I wonder if we tried to that with Navratilova and Evert. After all Navratilova took a long time to truly get her act together and fulfill her full potential as a player. She then started to decline with age not long after Evert in fact, so to Evert's credit Evert seemed to have the much longer prime. However if we just took those wins how many would Evert have left? Yes I suggest to avoid those kind of slants it is best to look at career head to head.

How specific do you want to be? If it only from 1999-2002 Venus would still lead a very competitive 7-4. If you want to take only 2001-2002 which is kind of ridiculous since those were Venus's two "dominant" years so of course she would have the edge probably on everyone, it was 3-1 Venus and Hingis's win was a 6-1, 6-1 win while 2 of Venus's 3 wins were 3-setters. Hingis never played Serena during the period from the 2002 French Open-2003 Wimbledon when she won 5 slams. Since her only slam before that was the 1999 U.S Open, if you want to narrow it down from the 7-4 head to head from 1999-2002, to including the 99 U.S Open onwards it would be a very competitive 5-3 only edge for Serena. What Serena is today is irrelevant since she hasnt played Hingis since 2002 anyway. I would even argue on your selective criteria counting Hingis's 2 early 2002 losses is kind of silly since that is the year she retired her foot problems were so bad. Also for the record saying Hingis is in the better place now when Serena has won the two biggest womens events to start the year and looks like the unofficial #1 again is also silly IMO.

I still stand by my statement that Evert, Navratilova and Seles in their prime would beat Hingis regularly. Against those three she would be equivalent to a Mandlikova or a Sanchez-Vicario, getting an occasional win but mostly losing

I cant speak much to Mandlikova since she is from another era. Hingis is on another level then Sanchez Vicario though, the fact Hingis has only one more slam just reflects how much tougher the competition Hingis faced then Sanchez Vicario. Once Seles got stabbed Sanchez Vicario only needed Graf to get injured/upset, or even in the very rare time outplay her in one match, to win a big event, as there was no other people blocking her way really. Hingis began to won Sanchez Vicario late in 96 when she started to come into her own, Sanchez was basically her personal b%tch. If you think of saying Sanchez Vicario was past her prime remember Sanchez won the 98 French Open which was one of only four slams she ever won.

Hingis would be more of a challenge to Navratilova, Seles, Graf, or Evert then Sanchez Vicario ever was/would be.

Wingshellphelp
05-10-2007, 04:50 PM
I basically agree with everything anointedone just said

CEvertFan
05-10-2007, 05:32 PM
I never said that Mandlikova or Sanchez-Vicario were better players than Hingis I just said that she would be put in the same category as them if she played Navratilova, Evert and Seles during those players' prime. Hingis most likely would be more of a challenge but she would still lose most matches. The Hingis serve and forehand just aren't good enough.

And Arantxa was already starting to decline when she started playing Hingis whether you believe it or not. Look at some of her losses and you will see what I mean. When any player is declining they can still have a good day, but bad days become more frequent than when in their prime.

anointedone
05-10-2007, 07:07 PM
Why do you keep pointing out Hingis is less great then Navratilova, Evert, or Seles, or that she wouldnt beat them in their primes though. This thread is not "who was better in their primes, Hingis or one of Navratilova or Evert or Seles". It is "who was better in their primes, Steffi Graf or Martina Hingis".

I still every slam Graf won is one that Hingis would have to if she was born 11years sooner instead, plus maybe some others. Lets run down who Graf beat to win each of her slams:

1987 French Open-Navratilova. Hingis would have been able to beat Navratilova on clay.

1988 Australian Open-old Evert. Hingis would have been able to beat an aging Evert.

1988 French Open-Zvereva. Hingis would definitely beat Zvereva.

1988 Wimbledon-old Navratilova. Hingis would have been able to beat an aging Navratilova.

1988 U.S Open-Sabatini. Hingis would beat Sabatini in a slam final.

1989 Australian Open-Sukova. Hingis would definitely beat Sukova.

1989 Wimbledon-old Navratilova. Again Hingis would be able to beat an aging Navratilova.

1989 U.S Open-old Navratilova. Again Hingis would be able to beat an aging Navratilova.

1990 Australian Open-Mary Joe Fernandez. Hingis would romp over MJF.

1991 Wimbledon-Sabatini. Hingis would own a player like Sabatini and never lose a slam title to her.

1992 Wimbledon-Seles. Hingis would definitely be able to beat Seles on grass.

1993 French Open-MJF. Once again MJF would be an easy person for Hingis to beat with both in their primes.

1993 Wimbledon-Novotna. Since she choked against Graf, would have choked vs Hingis if she had a chance to win.

1993 U.S Open-Sukova. For Hingis another certain win with this opponent.

1994 Australian Open-Sanchez Vicario. Hingis would own Sanchez and never lose a slam title to her.

1995 French Open-Sanchez Vicario. Again Sanchez Vicario is not someone who Hingis would lose slam titles to.

1995 Wimbledon-Sanchez Vicario. Yet again Sanchez Vicario would not be able to prevent Hingis a slam title.

1995 U.S Open-Seles. This is post-stabbing Seles who Hingis owned.

1996 French Open-Sanchez Vicario. Same results. Hingis would own Sanchez Vicario.

1996 Wimbledon-Sanchez Vicario. Another given win for Hingis vs this opponent.

1996 U.S Open-Seles. Again Hingis owned post stabbing Seles.


Some slams Graf lost that Hingis could have won:

1989 French Open-Sanchez Vicario. Hingis would never lose a slam title to Sanchez Vicario.

1990 Wimbledon-Garrison(Navratilova wins event). Hingis would never let Garrison cost her a Wimbledon title by beating her in the semis, and would beat a 33 year old Navratilova in a Wimbledon final.

1990 U.S Open-Sabatini. Hingis would never lose a slam title to someone like Sabatini.

1994 French Open-Pierce(Sanchez wins). Since Hingis had to play one of her worst matches ever to lose to Pierce barely in a 3 set semi in 2000 I dont see lightnight striking twice, and as I said I cant see Hingis letting Sanchez win a slam if she were in her prime with her.

1994 Wimbledon-McNeil(Martinez wins). Hingis would never let someone like McNeil take her out of Wimbledon, nor would she let Martinez win a slam title if she were in her prime then.

1994 U.S Open-Sanchez Vicario. Once again Hingis would never let Sanchez Vicario take a slam title from her.

1995 Australian Open-Graf DNP(Pierce won event)Hingis was less injury prone then Graf in her prime. Pierce does not beat Hingis in a slam final.

1996 Australian Open-Graf DNP(Seles won event)Hingis again was less prone to injury then Graf. Owned post stabbing Seles.

Even if Hingis never beat Navratilova in her prime on hard courts or grass, never beat Seles in her prime on hard courts or clay, never beat Evert in her prime, she still could win close to 30 slams.

CEvertFan
05-10-2007, 08:00 PM
I happen to disagree with that but the fact is that Hingis wasn't born 11 years earlier so why even bother with the supposition? Hingis couldn't even manage to beat Graf in '99 when Hingis was #1 in the world and Graf was at the very end of her career or even beat Iva Majoli in '97 when she was #1 in the world which would have given her the Grand Slam for that year, or beat Capriati at the AO when she was #1 in the world.

She doesn't have enough of what it takes to be one of the all time greats and GRAF is clearly a better player than HINGIS. I am not even a Graf fan per se, although I do admire her as a fan of tennis. Even if Seles hadn't been stabbed and continued to dominate Graf for 3+ more years, Graf would still wind up to be a better player than Hingis will ever be.

Hingis won her 5 Slams over lesser players:

AO- over Mauresmo, Pierce and Martinez-she's certainly WAY better than those three
Wimbledon- over Novotna "The Queen of Choke"
US Open- over Venus Williams who wasn't in her prime yet and got killed.
Never won the French***

***ALL the true greatest women have won all 4 majors at least once. If you look at my top 5 all time players in another thread you'll see that Seles isn't even listed.

Mark Vessels
05-12-2007, 05:58 AM
Maartina Hingis, she's still competing in women's tennis and Steffie's backhand chip would woman-handledplaying against the power and geometric anaylsis of Hingis

CEvertFan
05-12-2007, 08:42 AM
Maartina Hingis, she's still competing in women's tennis and Steffie's backhand chip would woman-handledplaying against the power and geometric anaylsis of Hingis


Steffi has a winning record over Hingis. Get a clue. :roll: :roll:

Warriorroger
05-19-2007, 02:18 AM
I agree on it being a strength but you can hardly call that shot a weapon when you rarely hit a winning/passing shot.Graf benefited from her backhand in an era where not a lot of players were consistently able to exploit that kind of play. She can afford to run around her backhand then, well primarily from her speed, but against a player who can consistently hit deep and hard, then Graf would be in a predicament. It is an interesting thought on how Graf would adapt her game against todays players if she played or if she had used the same tactic how well she would do with it.I really think her unorthodox forehand and running around her backhand played a major factor in her injuries.

I slightly disagree. I think the Graf we would see today, would be the Graf we saw last against Venus Williams at Wimbledon 1999. Both players in balance: Graf at the end of her legendary career, Venus at the start of a promising career. Graf played a player she hadn't played throughout all her dominant period: the power of Seles but with footwork as good as her own. Steffi played very smart during that match. Graf's slice is put on a scale with all slices, but her slice was a weapon. I believe that her most painful losses came when she was attacked on the forehand. Her backhand was more consistent.

Going back to the injuries. I feel it has more to do with almost always getting to the finals and therebye having played more than the rest of them.

Graf made the most of a very effective game: a Great 1st serve, an amazingly dangerous forehand, a nasty slice and that incredible footwork, but the killer was her mental game. A prime Steffi Graf (1996 not 1988 )would be a dangerous force amongst today's women. Players like Henin, The Williams sisters would trouble her, but would make up beautiful matches.

I feel Hingis has a more complete game, but she plays a spoilt brat game, rather believing she should win, instead of fighting for it.

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:31 PM
Though Graf definitely had better results on paper, it was undeniable to acknowledge Hingis' genius and flair when she was on top. I wasn't fond of her bratty and cocky attitude but she was amazing to watch when she played, the way she constructed her points.

Hingis wilted under pressure (eg. FO 99, AO 02). She was barely a tier-3 great.

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:37 PM
....
Using that French Open win for Graf as a good reference point is a bit of a joke if you are trying to argue in Graf's favor. Hingis was dominating that match and the crowd got involved and were downright malicious, and helped to turn the whole match around. ...

Cry me a river ....

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:40 PM
.... She can afford to run around her backhand then, well primarily from her speed, but against a player who can consistently hit deep and hard, then Graf would be in a predicament. ....

Serena would be in deep trouble against a player who can consistently rip her first serve apart.
So what's your point, son?

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:42 PM
It's funny how now i do see Steffi's backhand not as a weakness anymore. I think when she played against power players like Seles, Capriati who could pound and pick on the backhand it made her vulnerable. ...


#1 Seles lost more than 70 % of her matches against Graf.
Capriati lost 91 % of her matches against Graf.
Maybe Graf's BH was indeed not that weak ....

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:47 PM
Maartina Hingis, she's still competing in women's tennis and Steffie's backhand chip would woman-handledplaying against the power and geometric anaylsis of Hingis

Yes, that was on full display when peak Hingis of 1998/99 won 1 of 3 matches against an over-the-hill Graf. That is more than 33 %!!

Condoleezza
05-20-2007, 09:49 PM
I slightly disagree. I think the Graf we would see today, would be the Graf we saw last against Venus Williams at Wimbledon 1999. ....

Graf of 1999 was far slower than Graf of 1989 or even Graf of 1996.

thetruthshallsetyoufree
05-20-2007, 11:14 PM
Current Rank: 3 Highest Rank: 1
Grand Slam Titles: 22 Tournaments Won: 107
Australian Open Titles: 4 French Open Titles: 6
Wimbledon Titles: 7 US Open Titles: 5
Grand Slam Finals: 31 Consecutive Grand Slams: 5
Most GS Titles, Year: 4 Consec. Years with 1+ GS: 10
Years Ranked #1: 8 Career Prize Money: $21 million
Career Record: 902-114

^^When Hingis even achieves half of that, then and only then can she be even worthy of being mentioned in the same sentence.

current rank 3? you do know graf retired right?

Kaptain Karl
05-21-2007, 06:15 AM
ATBballkid and Condoleeza - No more hijacking the thread into yet another Graf/Seles debate. You have your thread for that.

- KK

oscar_2424
05-21-2007, 06:26 AM
Steffi gets my vote.

rommil
05-22-2007, 09:03 PM
I know that arguing in a U.S. tennis forum is a tightrope dance.
"Tennis Warehouse" is selling tennis items to U.S. customers. So they have to support the notion that U.S. tennis players are the greatest. When U.S. posters get angry about a foreigner challenging the greatness of U.S. players and complain to the mods - what will those mods do after a while out of fear of losing their customers?
There you are ....

I believe TW ships to countries as well. You might want to check with them if they ship to Nigeria, YOUR country. Tightrope dance? Get off the dancefloor then because your moves are OLD.....

rommil
05-23-2007, 11:26 AM
Are you off the dance floor yet Condi because your knees are starting to buckle.

Condoleezza
05-23-2007, 12:06 PM
I believe TW ships to countries as well. ...


Yes, but wants to buy at TW outside of the U.S.A.??
95 % of TW buyers are from the U.S. for sure. So TW goes with the money. Even in forums.
Is that really a new idea for you???

rommil
05-23-2007, 12:15 PM
Yes, but wants to buy at TW outside of the U.S.A.??
95 % of TW buyers are from the U.S. for sure. So TW goes with the money. Even in forums.
Is that really a new idea for you???

Newsflash for you if these concepts don't exist in Nigeria, TW is a business.

Wuornos
08-24-2007, 08:13 AM
I don't know about this. No matter how I look at it statistically, whether from the BOAT point of view or GOAT, I always come up with the same answer.

GRAFF!

Graff was 31-6 in major semi finals and 22-9 in finals. Her major 22 titles were spread over 1987 - 1999 (13 years inclusive). She scored 273 achievement points on my own system which when multiplied by the spread adjuster of 2.44 gave her a domination rating of 666 (worrying). Adding on her opponent adjuster of 528 gives Graff an absolute peak playing standard of 1194.

Hingis was 12-7 in major semi finals, and 5-7 in finals. Her major titles were spread over 1997 - 1999 (3 years inclusive). She scored 115 achievement points on my own system which when multiplied by the spread adjuster of 4.18 gave her a domination rating of 481. Adding on her opponent adjuster of 647 gives Hingisand an absolute peak playing standard of 1128.

The scores for domination tend to indicate what people refer to as greatness while absolute playing standard reflects the better player.

Even allowing for Hingis getting a much larger spread adjuster as a higher proportion of her achievements were crammed into a smaller space of time, her total domination is no where near Steffi's. She also gets the benefit of facing slightly stiffer competition in the form of her opponent adjuster but even allowing for this she still remains lower in the ratings than Steffi.

Automatix
08-24-2007, 10:11 AM
Honestly this poll is silly, the answer is more than obvious, you don't have the arguments to convince anyone that Hingis could even be compared to such an amazing player as Graff... btw Wuornos did a G R E A T sum up just above this post which clearly favores Steffi... when Eurosport showed Roland Garros Legends I saw Steffi's forehand and it was amazing but then again even her backhand slice was something I never saw a modern WTA player who could play such a deadly slice... so I'll repeat... Steffi Graff is at least 10x better than Hingis ever was...:D

Vector
08-24-2007, 10:16 AM
Graf all the way

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
08-26-2007, 07:32 AM
Graf. No contest.

Graf or Seles would have been a closer poll I think.

AznHylite
08-26-2007, 09:15 PM
This is totally lopsided. Steffi FTW.

grafrules
08-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Graf is by far the greater and more talented player.

NostalgiaTennisFan
10-17-2013, 09:22 AM
I am an ardent Graf fan, but I want to hear your opinions regarding that infamous French Open final. It was sparked by a dubious line call that Hingis felt was in. Graf was leading 40 - 0 so it was not a big point, and that is why I had a feeling that Hingis might have been right. She got a point penalty for walking over to Graf's side of the court to to point out the mark and seeing the replay I was startled! I never wanted to believe that Graf could do such a thing - she is actually pointing to the wrong mark to the umpire, doing it on purpose to get into Hingis' head. Tell me if I am mistaken. Stefi, how could you! Hingis was too young and naive, everything went downhill from then on. She lost the pivotal game when she served for the match, managed to get entire French crowd turn against her - that under arm serve was a childish retaliation against the crowd Three weeks later she got destroyed by Dokic at Wimbledob and never won another grand slam since. Martina, I am sorry for doubting you, Graf threw the bait and being 18 and naive you took the hook line and sinker - so sad.

illusions30
10-17-2013, 10:36 AM
Is this some kind of epic joke. Peak Hingis dominated one of the worst years in womens tennis history, and still couldn't compile even close to Graf's 5 best years record. She couldn't complete the Grand Slam which was all but handed to her on a platter since she couldn't beat Iva freaking Majoli in a slam final. Peak Hingis was 1-2 vs 30 year old post surgery Graf in a 40 years old body before Graf retired, and lost the mental plot to granny Graf in a slam final.

Hingis looked to have amazing potential when she first rose to #1 and won all those slams, but she failed to build on it at all, and the up and coming generation and even a late blooming Davenport exposed her limitations.

illusions30
10-17-2013, 10:38 AM
I am an ardent Graf fan, but I want to hear your opinions regarding that infamous French Open final. It was sparked by a dubious line call that Hingis felt was in. Graf was leading 40 - 0 so it was not a big point, and that is why I had a feeling that Hingis might have been right. She got a point penalty for walking over to Graf's side of the court to to point out the mark and seeing the replay I was startled! I never wanted to believe that Graf could do such a thing - she is actually pointing to the wrong mark to the umpire, doing it on purpose to get into Hingis' head. Tell me if I am mistaken. Stefi, how could you! Hingis was too young and naive, everything went downhill from then on. She lost the pivotal game when she served for the match, managed to get entire French crowd turn against her - that under arm serve was a childish retaliation against the crowd Three weeks later she got destroyed by Dokic at Wimbledob and never won another grand slam since. Martina, I am sorry for doubting you, Graf threw the bait and being 18 and naive you took the hook line and sinker - so sad.

Hingis should have won that match for sure. She was clearly outplaying Graf for the better part of 2 sets, but as often was the case with her, her petulance and emotional instability got the better with her. When you combine her issues in those areas, with a general laziness that means she wasn't driven to push herself and improve like another small fry- Justine Henin, and her physical disadvantages, it is easy to why her time on top and even her career was relatively short.

I don't believe Graf did anything on purpose to get in Hingis's head though. Hingis did that all to herself. Hingis and Graf were not friendly though, so Graf was never going to go out of her way to stop the train wreck. I don't believe she purposely tried to cheat a point, but she wasn't going to concede a point to Hingis either, and I don't believe she encouraged the crowd involvement, but she also wasn't going to do anything to stop in. Why should she have? Hingis had disrespected her publicly ever since her rise to #1 in Graf's absence, even calling her old, not powerful enough, too unathletic (despite that Hingis is far less powerful and athletic than an even semi prime Graf), and even boasted "the field" was now too tough for all the old hands Graf, Seles, Sanchez, and it wasn't their own declines in anyway that led to their fall downwards. It was all her and her then amazing peers like Kournikova (lol), Majoli, Graf era holdover Novotna who was now World #2 behind Hingis, and at the time Fatvenport. I wouldn't expect Hingis to admit her 97 dominance was due to a weak field of course, that would be unfair to expect; but if you are dominating such a weak field, and the old hands are having glaringly obvious problems with either injury (Graf), personal diress and weight issues (Seles), burnout (Sanchez Vicario) you do not use their downfall to mock them and trumpet how superior the game is now for them to cope with.

NostalgiaTennisFan
10-17-2013, 06:19 PM
Hingis should have won that match for sure. She was clearly outplaying Graf for the better part of 2 sets, but as often was the case with her, her petulance and emotional instability got the better with her. When you combine her issues in those areas, with a general laziness that means she wasn't driven to push herself and improve like another small fry- Justine Henin, and her physical disadvantages, it is easy to why her time on top and even her career was relatively short.

I don't believe Graf did anything on purpose to get in Hingis's head though. Hingis did that all to herself. Hingis and Graf were not friendly though, so Graf was never going to go out of her way to stop the train wreck. I don't believe she purposely tried to cheat a point, but she wasn't going to concede a point to Hingis either, and I don't believe she encouraged the crowd involvement, but she also wasn't going to do anything to stop in. Why should she have? Hingis had disrespected her publicly ever since her rise to #1 in Graf's absence, even calling her old, not powerful enough, too unathletic (despite that Hingis is far less powerful and athletic than an even semi prime Graf), and even boasted "the field" was now too tough for all the old hands Graf, Seles, Sanchez, and it wasn't their own declines in anyway that led to their fall downwards. It was all her and her then amazing peers like Kournikova (lol), Majoli, Graf era holdover Novotna who was now World #2 behind Hingis, and at the time Fatvenport. I wouldn't expect Hingis to admit her 97 dominance was due to a weak field of course, that would be unfair to expect; but if you are dominating such a weak field, and the old hands are having glaringly obvious problems with either injury (Graf), personal diress and weight issues (Seles), burnout (Sanchez Vicario) you do not use their downfall to mock them and trumpet how superior the game is now for them to cope with.
Right on the money on all counts! And there is another little known trivia the one that Hingis should not be too proud off - she was the most hated player among the ball boys and ball girls (Safin and Kafelnikov were the most liked) I must admit that I could not stand Hingis, her arrogance (Sharapova could not hold a candle to her) her lack of fitness etc. . but lately I am willing to forgive her all that. Her career was decided before she was even born, she must have gone through hell as a child. She got hardened by what she saw around her - let's not forget that despicable Rosset incident when Mark Rosset's self inflicted injury in the Hopman Cup final denied Hingis the title, I have that match on tape, and Martina is only 16 having the time of her life (Goran Ivanisevic said in the interview that she returned his serve better than most men) Switzerland were few points away from the match in the deciding mixed doubles against Croatia with Iva Majoli to serve and than fiasco - such nice example to give to a youngster Mark. What can one expect from a young girl witnessing such deplorable behaviour from a veteran (Mark won 1992 Olympic gold medal, he should have known better)

NostalgiaTennisFan
10-17-2013, 06:37 PM
Steffi was also a transition era player in terms of the oncoming power game brought about by the changes in racquet technology. She learned the game with a wood racquet even though she played her career entirely with a modern racquet. Seles, Capriati, etc. probably didn't spend much time at all with wood. I think all of that greatly influences how one plays. We all adapt our games to what we know know at the time.

I would agree with Rommil when he says that Steffi's backhand wasn't a weapon. But I still think of it as a good strategic set up shot. To make it a weakness, you really had to press Steffi. Which means approaching to the backhand and forcing her to come up with winners (like Novotna or Martina), or by using power and placement to get her off balance (like Seles and Capriati). Steffi did well fending the latter tactic off by keeping her balls extremely low. She wore a lot of two-handed players' wrists out by hitting that slice low to them forcing them to use more topspin and less power while hitting the ball just as hard.

I could be wrong. But that's how I saw it.
Graf's knifing slice skidded through and stayed low, forcing opponents to hit up, while giving Graf the time to run around to hit her atomic forheand - the most powerful shot in the history of womens tennis. John Newcombe said that Federer's inability to beat Nadal is due to his slice backhand that doesnt skid through the way Graf's did, so he is left to trade topspin backhand with Nadal's leftie forehand - a lost cause!

BTURNER
10-17-2013, 06:42 PM
I am an ardent Graf fan, but I want to hear your opinions regarding that infamous French Open final. It was sparked by a dubious line call that Hingis felt was in. Graf was leading 40 - 0 so it was not a big point, and that is why I had a feeling that Hingis might have been right. She got a point penalty for walking over to Graf's side of the court to to point out the mark and seeing the replay I was startled! I never wanted to believe that Graf could do such a thing - she is actually pointing to the wrong mark to the umpire, doing it on purpose to get into Hingis' head. Tell me if I am mistaken. Stefi, how could you! Hingis was too young and naive, everything went downhill from then on. She lost the pivotal game when she served for the match, managed to get entire French crowd turn against her - that under arm serve was a childish retaliation against the crowd Three weeks later she got destroyed by Dokic at Wimbledob and never won another grand slam since. Martina, I am sorry for doubting you, Graf threw the bait and being 18 and naive you took the hook line and sinker - so sad.

I think if Steffi pointed to a mark, she believed it to be the right mark. I think if Martina crosses over to the other side when the rules prohibit it, she deserves a penalty. I think an underhanded serve is no less sporting when Hingis does it, than when Chang does it. The crowd overreacted out of partisanship toward a familiar goal, an underdog resurgence ! Last, I have no idea who would have won that match without the drama, but a champion of Graf's stature does not need petty gamesmanship to win, and she has won plenty of matches without pointing to bad marks to do it.

PDJ
10-21-2013, 10:21 AM
I'm not American, I'm European as are both players discussed. So have no axe to grind. Obviously Graf had the better career, and over-all, the better match player but I would have answered differently had it been who would you prefer to watch.....

kiki
10-23-2013, 12:12 PM
I'm not American, I'm European as are both players discussed. So have no axe to grind. Obviously Graf had the better career, and over-all, the better match player but I would have answered differently had it been who would you prefer to watch.....

yes, I was wondering if good taste was going out of this forum...

BTURNER
10-23-2013, 02:56 PM
I'm not American, I'm European as are both players discussed. So have no axe to grind. Obviously Graf had the better career, and over-all, the better match player but I would have answered differently had it been who would you prefer to watch.....

I'd far prefer to watch Hingis. she had exquisite timing and balance, and a imaginative streak. There was very little to enjoy in Steffi's game beyond that explosive awesome power on that forehand. Steffis style was as surprising as watching a bulldoser at work( not much can stop a bulldoser!) One clear exception. Seeing Graf move about the court and sprint was as beautiful as watching a deer dashing across a clearing . That was the only beautiful thing about her game, but it truly was marvelous.

Dedans Penthouse
10-24-2013, 10:35 AM
I'd far prefer to watch Hingis. she had exquisite timing and balance, and a imaginative streak. There was very little to enjoy in Steffi's game beyond that explosive awesome power on that forehand. Steffis style was as surprising as watching a bulldoser at work( not much can stop a bulldoser!) One clear exception. Seeing Graf move about the court and sprint was as beautiful as watching a deer dashing across a clearing . That was the only beautiful thing about her game, but it truly was marvelous.

Summed up nicely.

Egoista
10-24-2013, 11:22 AM
graf by far

Mike Bulgakov
10-24-2013, 12:22 PM
I often had the chance to see Graf and Hingis practice and play up close in the 1990s. Graf was an incredible athlete, and moved so fast in every direction.

From courtside, Graf's movement was what really caught my eye. One of my favourite tennis moments was watching her glide across an empty area of Wimbledon practice courts early in the morning mist before her first round match.

The first time I saw Hingis play in person was in Oakland when she was young. I was amazed at how supple her hands were, and the way she could take a crosscourt shot and redirect it down the line.

Graf was a much better athlete and player, but Hingis had a great court sense and amazing hands.

kiki
10-24-2013, 02:37 PM
Truth is that Graf´s game was based on two weapons, but those happen to be two of the biggest weapons a man or a woman ever displayed on a tennis court: Her Footwork and her Forehand...and a third one, her menthal strength.

hoodjem
10-25-2013, 09:11 AM
One F: Graf.

robertharris
11-03-2013, 09:11 PM
Is this thread a serious thread, or was it started by a troll of some kind? I love to watch Hingis play, and never particularly liked Graf's "everyone revolves around setting up the forehand) game; but 1997 was one of the worst fields in womens tennis history, and she still didnt come close to Graf's 4 or 5 years. She could only sustain dominance for a single year. She also lost a good portion of her matchs to a well past her prime, during her own peak.

Graf was alot less fun to watch, but in the end alot more effective. Hingis was a super talented player, but she was a victim of her own arrogance, laziness, too much too soon, and ultimately too not being quite top level in the most important traits of modern tennis- power, athleticsm (very good athlete and mover but still not on par with Venus, Serena, Henin, Clijsters, here), and most of all mental fortitude. Graf had a simple and mind numbingly dull game, but few could counter it.

robertharris
11-03-2013, 09:14 PM
I'd far prefer to watch Hingis. she had exquisite timing and balance, and a imaginative streak. There was very little to enjoy in Steffi's game beyond that explosive awesome power on that forehand. Steffis style was as surprising as watching a bulldoser at work( not much can stop a bulldoser!) One clear exception. Seeing Graf move about the court and sprint was as beautiful as watching a deer dashing across a clearing . That was the only beautiful thing about her game, but it truly was marvelous.

I agree with this completely. Graf was indeed like a bulldozer. You couldnt do anything to stop it, but it was never alot of fun. The most beautiful thing about Graf's game was her in full flght sprinting for all and showing off her marvelous athletic ability, and also her service action which was very fluid and nice. Her very ugly forehand which was probably the best weapon ever (other than maybe the Serena serve) was also not enjoyable to watch being hit.

helterskelter
11-03-2013, 09:31 PM
Judging on records alone, you could certainly argue that hingis's 1997 was better than any of graf's years bar 1988 and 1989. The Graf of 1995 and 1996 may have been at the highest level of any woman before Serena, but she didn't play the Australian open in either year, while Hingis made the final of Roland garros. Even for a 3-time slam champion, making the final of the other to complete the annual set is meaningful. And a large par of success is showing up.

robertharris
11-03-2013, 10:41 PM
Judging on records alone, you could certainly argue that hingis's 1997 was better than any of graf's years bar 1988 and 1989. The Graf of 1995 and 1996 may have been at the highest level of any woman before Serena, but she didn't play the Australian open in either year, while Hingis made the final of Roland garros. Even for a 3-time slam champion, making the final of the other to complete the annual set is meaningful. And a large par of success is showing up.

I would rate Graf's 1995 and 1996 as easily better years than Hingis's 1997. 3 slams and the WTA Championships is better than 3 slams and a 4th slam final for starters. Winning the 4 biggest events you play, and the biggest event on every surface both years is way better than winning only 3 of the 5, and losing both the years biggest clay and biggest indoor event. Graf also had a better W-L, especialy in 95 where she only lost 2 matches. I would never choose a year where I lost a slam final to Iva Majoli (something Graf of 95 and 96 would have never done), crashed out early at the WTA Championships, and went one stretch winning something like 1 out of 6 tournaments to end the year, over Graf's 95 or 96.

Heck I would probably take Graf's 93 over Hingis's 97. Just like Hingis of 97 she did win 3 slams and reach the final of the other. Lost to Seles in 3 sets, not Iva Majoli in 2 easy set; and won the WTA Championships. This probably already makes it superior to Hingis's 97, regardless of anything else. The only downside was it coming directly after the Seles stabbing.

The Isomotion31
11-04-2013, 08:52 AM
Definitely Graf....However, I voted for Hingis for memories and fandom.

helterskelter
11-04-2013, 09:12 AM
I would rate Graf's 1995 and 1996 as easily better years than Hingis's 1997. 3 slams and the WTA Championships is better than 3 slams and a 4th slam final for starters. Winning the 4 biggest events you play, and the biggest event on every surface both years is way better than winning only 3 of the 5, and losing both the years biggest clay and biggest indoor event. Graf also had a better W-L, especialy in 95 where she only lost 2 matches. I would never choose a year where I lost a slam final to Iva Majoli (something Graf of 95 and 96 would have never done), crashed out early at the WTA Championships, and went one stretch winning something like 1 out of 6 tournaments to end the year, over Graf's 95 or 96.

Heck I would probably take Graf's 93 over Hingis's 97. Just like Hingis of 97 she did win 3 slams and reach the final of the other. Lost to Seles in 3 sets, not Iva Majoli in 2 easy set; and won the WTA Championships. This probably already makes it superior to Hingis's 97, regardless of anything else. The only downside was it coming directly after the Seles stabbing.

I agree that winning the WTA Championships is a big deal, but you're making the mistake of thinking that not playing a major is better than being runner-up in it. It's just not.

In 1997, Hingis won 12 tournaments. Graf won 10 in 1993, nine in 1995, and only seven in 1996. Graf lost five matches in 1996, six in 1993, and just two in 1995. Hingis lost five in 1997, but she played a lot more. Graf's win-loss record was impressive but she didn't play as much, and you shouldn't get credit for not playing. The WTA title may well put Graf's 95 over Hingis's 97, but that's not without dispute, and the 93 and 96 are much more questionable.

I also don't think that losing in two sets versus losing in three sets is relevant. A win's a win.

BTW, I don't know why you think Hingis only won one of her last six tournaments. She only lost five matches all year. Given that she played more than Graf in any of those years, I think that makes Hingis's win-loss percentage higher than Graf's was in either 1993 or 1996 [I haven't done the maths or checked how many matches they each won, so I can't say for sure]. Hingis did only win two of her last five tournaments, but that's a much better winning ratio than one of six. Anyway, in 1993, Graf won only two of her first six tournaments.

I would say: 1) Graf 1995; 2) Hingis 1997; 3) Graf 1996; 4) Graf 1993. I agree that it's all arguable, but it's not as clear as you suggested.

robertharris
11-04-2013, 11:10 AM
For me any year with 3 slams + YEC title is over any year with 3 slams and no YEC title, so already on that alone, Graf's 1995, 1996, and 1993 are superior to Hingis's 1997. Meanwhile if you are giving Hingis alot of extra credit for reaching a 4th slam final, then ironically 1993 would be the last year of those of Graf's you could ever place below Hingis, as she won the YEC, plus winning 3 slams and reaching the finals of the other like Hingis.

The only exception to that would be if Hingis was far more dominant overall, had a much better W-L, won many more tournaments (which are the reason for instance Graf's 87 was superior to Martina's 87, and possibly Henin's 2006 superior to Mauresmo's) which is not the case here. Graf was 76-6, 93% win percentage, and winning 10 titles in 1993. She was 47-2, 96% win percentage, and winning 9 titles in 1995. She was 54-4, 93% win percentage, and winning 7 titles in 1996. Hingis was 71-5, 93% win percentage, and 12 titles in 1997. So Hingis didnt have a better win percentage than Graf had any of those 3 years, although she did win a few more tournaments due to playing more. Still nothing that would overcome Graf winning the YEC plus her 3 slams, and going undefeated in the biggest events for the year. The only year I could possibly see placing below Hingis's 1997 is Graf's 1996 as she only won 7 titles vs 12 for Hingis.

So my order would be:

1. Graf's 1995, 2. Graf's 1993, 3. Graf's 1996 and Hingis's 1997 tied, although as far as level of tennis Graf's 1996 was the highest of all those, followed by Graf's 1995, and Hingis's 1997 and Graf's 1993 tied for third.

LeeD
11-04-2013, 12:43 PM
Graf could beat any WTA player.
Hingus waited for her opponent to miss while trying to beat her.

struggle
11-04-2013, 01:37 PM
Graf and who????

helterskelter
11-04-2013, 02:59 PM
For me any year with 3 slams + YEC title is over any year with 3 slams and no YEC title, so already on that alone, Graf's 1995, 1996, and 1993 are superior to Hingis's 1997. Meanwhile if you are giving Hingis alot of extra credit for reaching a 4th slam final, then ironically 1993 would be the last year of those of Graf's you could ever place below Hingis, as she won the YEC, plus winning 3 slams and reaching the finals of the other like Hingis.

The only exception to that would be if Hingis was far more dominant overall, had a much better W-L, won many more tournaments (which are the reason for instance Graf's 87 was superior to Martina's 87, and possibly Henin's 2006 superior to Mauresmo's) which is not the case here. Graf was 76-6, 93% win percentage, and winning 10 titles in 1993. She was 47-2, 96% win percentage, and winning 9 titles in 1995. She was 54-4, 93% win percentage, and winning 7 titles in 1996. Hingis was 71-5, 93% win percentage, and 12 titles in 1997. So Hingis didnt have a better win percentage than Graf had any of those 3 years, although she did win a few more tournaments due to playing more. Still nothing that would overcome Graf winning the YEC plus her 3 slams, and going undefeated in the biggest events for the year. The only year I could possibly see placing below Hingis's 1997 is Graf's 1996 as she only won 7 titles vs 12 for Hingis.

So my order would be:

1. Graf's 1995, 2. Graf's 1993, 3. Graf's 1996 and Hingis's 1997 tied, although as far as level of tennis Graf's 1996 was the highest of all those, followed by Graf's 1995, and Hingis's 1997 and Graf's 1993 tied for third.

I would say that winning the Year-End Championships is about on a par with being runner-up in a Slam. It might be slightly higher, but not much. Given that, and given the identical win percentages between Hingis in 1997, Graf in 1993, and Graf in 1996, I think that Hingis's extra titles are significant.

Why is Graf's level of tennis in 1996 higher than in 1995? I'd say they were about equal, but that her consistency in 1995 would put it slightly higher.

About Graf in 1993: I just find it hard to stick to records in that year when those records are so obviously dubious. As I said yesterday, when talking about the Seles stabbing, the long-term ramifications are so much murkier than the short-term ones. Who knows what would have happened over time? Perhaps Seles would have put weight on anyway. Perhaps she'd have lost focus when her father got sick. Perhaps she couldn't have coped with the new breed of power hitters. And Graf clearly did play much better in 1995 and 1996 than she did in 1992 and, especially, 1991. But in 1993, Graf played no better than in 1992. Her performance at Roland Garros just wouldn't have got it done, and even at Wimbledon her play was so poor that if there was ever a year when Monica could challenge, it was that one. (Novotna won 10 games out of 12, and even aside from the epic choke from 4-1 40-15 in the 3rd set, also basically choked the first set. Had Monica played, and had the draw worked out differently, then Novotna might have played Graf in the semis, might not have choked, and then played Monica in the final, and choked.) Graf was a little better at the US Open, but not wonderful. She did play very well indeed in Australia in 1994, but that was her worst surface and either Monica's best or second best, so while that would have been a great match, I wouldn't say it was a guarantee for Graf.

I suppose that on results, Graf's 1993 is roughly on a par with her 1996, (though not with her 1995) but I just can't look at it that way.

robertharris
11-04-2013, 04:24 PM
I would say that winning the Year-End Championships is about on a par with being runner-up in a Slam.

Not for me it isnt. If that were the case nobody would be saying Seles should have been #1 in 1990 with way worse slam results (W, quarters, 3rd round, DNP vs Graf's win, final, final, semis), a worse W-L, less tournament wins. All because of the WTA Championships, and her Miami title which back then wasnt even close to the YEC in importance. If the YEC was perceived to be roughly equal with a slam final, Seles would be viewed as miles behind Graf that year even with her YEC, yet I have seen many arguing she was the real #1 that year.

As for level of play I think Graf was much harder to beat in 96 than 95. In 95 she nearly lost to Conchita Martinez at RG, and Conchita even played poorly about 70% of the match. She nearly lost and lost a bagel set to an extremely unfit and injured Seles in the U.S open final. She would beat her pretty routinely in their 96 rematch, and unlike 95 where she looked mostly on her heels, she pretty much dicated and dominated the 96 final. Sanchez Vicario on her worst surface- grass nearly beat her in the Wimbledon finals, although it was still an excellent match. Amanda Coetzer beat her, and nearly beat her at the U.S open, the only year outside 97 she gave Graf any trouble. She went to 5 sets in the WTA Championships with Anke Huber, who is not a great player. In 1996 she dominated all her slams, minus the incredible RG final with Sanchez Vicario; but was at no other point seriously threatened other than the 1st set of the U.S Open semis with Hingis. WTA Championships went to 5 sets with Hingis, but Hingis was on a tear and crushing people in late 96, foreshadowing her 97 dominance, and it was really quite a convincing win for Graf anyway despite going 5, with two bagel sets. Yes stats wise her 95 year was the better year and I rated it so, but her level of play in 96 was her highest, along with 88 and 89 I believe. She lost more matches? Maybe more other people just stepped up or closed out matches they failed to close out vs her in 95. Thinking of her 96 losses to Davenport, Date, Novotna (where she only played the 1st set), and Hingis, her level of play was only poor in 1 of them, the Hingis loss. Her level of play was very poor in both her 95 losses to rather weak opponents too. Stats dont always reflect how well someone played. Most people agree Serena in 2002 was the highest level of tennis every by a women, but statistically it is barely a top 15 year in the Open Era.

robertharris
11-04-2013, 04:47 PM
Also if we enter subjective territory, the 97 field was absolutely awful. Far worse than any year from 93-96 despite people believing the womens field was weak those years too. All the people who were strong in 94, 95 and 96 were gone- Graf injured, Seles in her worst shape ever even during her post stabbing career, Sanchez burnt out and on the fade, Martinez also burnt out and on the way down, Pierce still in a slump, and nobody replacing them and filling their shoes yet. Davenport wasnt that good a player yet, she rose to #2 and #3 due to the very weak field, not really any noticeable improvements yet. Novotna was still good in 97 and 98, but she was always a mentally fragile surface specialist who was never close to a #1 caliber player. Coetzer, Majoli, Spirlea, are not top class players.

While you are right we have no idea how Seles would have been playing by 97, but we do know Hingis was very lucky Graf went down with injuries too, or she would have never dominated 97. Best case is she would have battled closely with Graf, but more likely case is Graf would have retained the upper hand and remained the top player that year.

helterskelter
11-05-2013, 12:22 PM
I know most people would agree with you about the Year-End Championships win being far greater than a Slam runner-up, but I still disagree. I'd say a Slam runner-up is on a par with winning a Masters 1000 event. The Year-End Championships is undoubtedly bigger than that, but the difference between it and a Slam title is in my view as big as the difference between it and a Slam runner-up. When I used to post on Worldcrossing, I became convinced by one of the posters there that one of the great things about tennis was that each match was like a mini-tournament and that it's a mistake to think that only winning the whole thing matters, even at the highest level.

There was a poster on this board a month or so ago who insisted that she'd prefer a 6-0 record in Slam finals over a 6-6 one. I couldn't agree with that.

You may be right that Graf's level was higher in 96, although it's worth mentioning that Seles played much better at the US Open 1995 than at the US Open 1996, so that was a factor, too. I think that, when she first came back she thought that her fitness would improve quickly and wouldn't impede her. When neither of those things turned out to be true, she quickly lost confidence. In 1996, she even struggled to beat Conchita Martinez in the semi-finals. (I know the score was 6-4 6-3, which seems not that much tougher than the 6-2 6-2 of 1995, but the matches were poles apart in closeness).

A couple of us discussed recently whether the future of Seles and Graf might have turned out differently had Seles's serve on set point in the first set tiebreak in 1995 been called in, thus giving her the set with an ace.

Anyway, even if Graf's level was higher in 1996, her results were marginally better in 1995.

On Serena's 2002 (related also to the topic of who was #1 in 1990): part of what's going on there is that people seem to me to have a tendency to think of the Australian Open as part of the previous year's results because of the temporal proximity. If the year had started in March 2002 and ended in February 2003, then Serena's year would indeed be one of the best of the Open Era. If the year had started in March 1990 and ended in February 1991, then Seles would indeed have been the worthy #1. Because the Australian Open is so much before the heart of the tennis season, I think we have a tendency to discount it somewhat. Much as I wish I could say Seles should have been #1 in 1990, I can't do so.

BTW, I'm glad you agree that Serena in 2002/3 was at a higher level than Serena today. I'm perpetually surprised when the commentators continue to argue that she's even better now. I just don't see that at all. Her game is tidier. But it's less explosive, and her movement isn't quite as good. The field is very much easier now than it was then, and Serena still lost in two Slams.

Fedinkum
11-05-2013, 01:59 PM
I liked them both.