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Illegal_edge
09-20-2004, 12:03 PM
I need help with developing a twist serve. I have practiced for countless hours. I've been using a Bh grip and brushing up the back of the ball striking it going from 8'o clock to 2'o clock to try to produce the counter spin, but all I get is a normal kick serve. Is there something I'm doing wrong, do I just need more pratice or is it just a talent some people have?

andreh
09-20-2004, 01:04 PM
Are you tossing to the left? The toss should be to the left of your head otherwise you won't get the side spin. Also, for more kick you should hit the ball behind your head.

predrag
09-20-2004, 02:05 PM
I need help with developing a twist serve. I have practiced for countless hours. I've been using a Bh grip and brushing up the back of the ball striking it going from 8'o clock to 2'o clock to try to produce the counter spin, but all I get is a normal kick serve. Is there something I'm doing wrong, do I just need more pratice or is it just a talent some people have?

This was discussed into the detail few weeks ago.

If you want a Twist serve you should toss the ball somewhere between the toss for the flat and slice serves.
Meaning little to the right but not as much as if you were hitting the slice serve. (Assuming that you are righthanded)
You are probably tossing the ball just above your head and this is why you are ending up
with regular topspin serve.

Regards, Predrag

TwistServe
09-20-2004, 02:18 PM
Actually if you want to hit a twist serve, you want to toss to the left of your flat serve..

Twist is 11:00 toss, flat is 12:00 toss, slice is 1:00 toss.

VTL
09-20-2004, 10:37 PM
I agree w/ predrag, it's just uncomfortable hitting serves from the left side of my head. Just try everything, see what you like for yourself.

predrag
09-21-2004, 06:24 AM
Actually if you want to hit a twist serve, you want to toss to the left of your flat serve..

Twist is 11:00 toss, flat is 12:00 toss, slice is 1:00 toss.

In the thread "Why does my serve twist the wrong way" (or something like
that, Bungaloo Bill posted terrific little diagram displaying various toss locations.
I tried to find it, but couldn't.

Can anybody help?

When I try to hit kick serve, I toss above my head. When I want to twist it, it is little bit more to the right.

Regards, Predrag

TwistServe
09-21-2004, 07:21 AM
I think you're thinking of a topspin slice serve placement.. by nature if you throw to the right you'll get more slice, if you throw to the left you get more kick (assuming same swing of course). If you throw to the right, it's not possible to get a 7-2, or 8-1 brushing motion so you end up more of about 8-3...

The thread is here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=15121&highlight=


I can hit a good twist serve and the above spins on the ball are correct for a righthanded player. If you want to disect it any further look it up!

For a right hander, you will toss the ball further back and over your left shoulder than for topspin. You will spin the ball with your racquet brushing from 7-1 or 8-2. PERIOD!!!!!

You can clearly see that the spin shown on the twist serve would curve the ball in the air to the left and when it lands it would kick to the right! I have no clue what is so difficult about this one.
http://www.operationdoubles.com/servetosses.gif

predrag
09-21-2004, 07:25 AM
I think you're thinking of a topspin slice serve placement.. by nature if you throw to the right you'll get more slice, if you throw to the left you get more kick (assuming same swing of course).

http://www.operationdoubles.com/servetosses.gif

Yes, that's the one.

I think that we concluded in that thread that Twist Serve is Topspin-Slice

This is exactly how I toss the ball.

When I want to hit kicker that would be bouncing to the receivers left, I toss the ball further left of Topspin toss.

Regards, Predrag

Hedges
09-21-2004, 07:53 AM
To get what I thought was an "American Twist" serve, I toss the ball to the left of the topspin toss (in diagram) and maybe a bit back. My arm motion is parallel with the baseline, and I feel like I hit the ball just in front of the baseline and behind my head.

I don't know if this is correct or not.

--Hedges

predrag
09-21-2004, 07:57 AM
To get what I thought was an "American Twist" serve, I toss the ball to the left of the topspin toss (in diagram) and maybe a bit back. My arm motion is parallel with the baseline, and I feel like I hit the ball just in front of the baseline and behind my head.

I don't know if this is correct or not.

--Hedges

I think people do it differently.
The question is does it curve to the left and bounce to the right.

Regards, Predrag

Hedges
09-21-2004, 08:04 AM
Yup...that's what it does when I hit it correctly. Unfortunately, it seems to take more effort now that I'm over 40 :-(

--Hedges

predrag
09-21-2004, 08:12 AM
Yup...that's what it does when I hit it correctly. Unfortunately, it seems to take more effort now that I'm over 40 :-(

--Hedges

Hmmmm,

until that thread, I have never tried to pursue that American Twist.
Now when I try it, I always toss to that topspin-slice location.

Whenever I toss little behind me, I go for kicker.

I will try your method.

Regards, Predrag

Hedges
09-21-2004, 08:26 AM
To clarify...when I say "my arm motion is parallel to the baseline"...I'm speaking of my toss arm....not my racket arm.

predrag
09-21-2004, 08:28 AM
To clarify...when I say "my arm motion is parallel to the baseline"...I'm speaking of my toss arm....not my racket arm.
Yeah, I got it.
That's how I toss, too

TwistServe
09-21-2004, 08:29 AM
Yup...that's what it does when I hit it correctly. Unfortunately, it seems to take more effort now that I'm over 40 :-(

--Hedges

Hmmmm,

until that thread, I have never tried to pursue that American Twist.
Now when I try it, I always toss to that topspin-slice location.

Whenever I toss little behind me, I go for kicker.

I will try your method.

Regards, Predrag

A kicker is a A-TwistServe... You can hit a twistserve from any one of those tosses, but which will get you more kick/twist.. obviously the toss to the left.. why? think about the.. the more you toss to the right, the more slice you get.. because you brush from below.. ttherefore, tossing just left of a topspin serve will get you the ideal Twist Serve..

trust TwistServe to deliver you the twist serve :roll:

predrag
09-21-2004, 08:32 AM
A kicker is a A-TwistServe... You can hit a twistserve from any one of those tosses, but which will get you more kick/twist.. obviously the toss to the left.. why? think about the.. the more you toss to the right, the more slice you get.. because you brush from below.. ttherefore, tossing just left of a topspin serve will get you the ideal Twist Serve..

trust TwistServe to deliver you the twist serve :roll:

Twist Serve is kicker, but not every kicker is a twist.

However, I call kicker serve that kicks exceptionally high.
Like topspin, or topspin with little bit of sidespin component.

Twist Serve twists more than actually kicks :):)

Regards, Predrag

badmice2
09-28-2004, 02:56 PM
make sure you dont use a full backhand grip....

Bungalo Bill
09-28-2004, 04:13 PM
Yes, that's the one.

I think that we concluded in that thread that Twist Serve is Topspin-Slice

This is exactly how I toss the ball.


Ummm, not exactly or maybe I am not understanding the coversation flow.

A topspin slice toss is shown on the page for a topspin slice serve. That is the behavior of the ball. A twist serve (looking at the picture above) is tossed more over the left shoulder and behind the head. There is an arc in the back and the racquet brushes up the back of the ball going from 7-1.

By hitting the ball and tossing the ball in these different locations you get two different serve effects. The twist from a balance persective will have more topspin then side spin for the most part.

TwistServe
09-28-2004, 06:04 PM
Yes, that's the one.

I think that we concluded in that thread that Twist Serve is Topspin-Slice

This is exactly how I toss the ball.


Ummm, not exactly or maybe I am not understanding the coversation flow.

A topspin slice toss is shown on the page for a topspin slice serve. That is the behavior of the ball. A twist serve (looking at the picture above) is tossed more over the left shoulder and behind the head. There is an arc in the back and the racquet brushes up the back of the ball going from 7-1.

By hitting the ball and tossing the ball in these different locations you get two different serve effects. The twist from a balance persective will have more topspin then side spin for the most part.

The conclusion of the previous thread about hitting twist serve, is that the proper swing path to twist the ball is 7-1, or 8-2.. We talked breifly about the ball toss but we did not "conclude" that the twist serve is a topspin slice serve. Predrag concluded that because of the name of the gif..

I consider a topspin slice serve to be a poorly hit kick serve. Usually intermediate players try to hit a kick serve and out comes a topspin slice serve because of an incorrect ball toss or incorrect swing path. So it causes the ball to be a half-*** kick serve: one that doesn't really kick and doesn't really slice... Again, the twist serve for a rightly will sweave to the opponents forehand in the air, bounce, and then kick towards the opponents backhand... This behavior definitely does not happen on a topspin-slice serve.

predrag
09-29-2004, 06:53 AM
The conclusion of the previous thread about hitting twist serve, is that the proper swing path to twist the ball is 7-1, or 8-2.. We talked breifly about the ball toss but we did not "conclude" that the twist serve is a topspin slice serve. Predrag concluded that because of the name of the gif..

I consider a topspin slice serve to be a poorly hit kick serve. Usually intermediate players try to hit a kick serve and out comes a topspin slice serve because of an incorrect ball toss or incorrect swing path. So it causes the ball to be a half-*** kick serve: one that doesn't really kick and doesn't really slice... Again, the twist serve for a rightly will sweave to the opponents forehand in the air, bounce, and then kick towards the opponents backhand... This behavior definitely does not happen on a topspin-slice serve.

Twist Serve is something that I did not do until I started experimenting aproximately a month ago.
Now I realize that what I was doing was Topspin Slice.
Yesterday I was trashing the guy bad enough that I felt comfortable experimenting
with the serve.

Yes you are right, toss little to the left and the effect is more pronounced.
This is great addition to my regular kicker.

Well, you learn somthing every day :)

Regards, Predrag

TwistServe
09-29-2004, 10:31 AM
Well, you learn somthing every day :)


This is definitely true.. I'm still learning new aspects of the game each day.. The minor tweaks here and there have really helped fine tune my strokes.

I've told this story before but here it is again:

Once I was practicing serves on the duece side (my bad side), and this old tennis pro approached me and made a suggestion. I thanked him but disregarded his advise because I thought I knew better.. I did try his advise the next day just for kicks and sure enough he was right.. After that day I try to never disregard any advise, and that I'm still learning new things everytime I play.

ChrisNC
09-29-2004, 11:23 AM
make sure you dont use a full backhand grip....

What is the proper grip for hitting this type of serve?

Bungalo Bill
09-29-2004, 11:29 AM
Yes, that's the one.

I think that we concluded in that thread that Twist Serve is Topspin-Slice

This is exactly how I toss the ball.


Ummm, not exactly or maybe I am not understanding the coversation flow.

A topspin slice toss is shown on the page for a topspin slice serve. That is the behavior of the ball. A twist serve (looking at the picture above) is tossed more over the left shoulder and behind the head. There is an arc in the back and the racquet brushes up the back of the ball going from 7-1.

By hitting the ball and tossing the ball in these different locations you get two different serve effects. The twist from a balance persective will have more topspin then side spin for the most part.

The conclusion of the previous thread about hitting twist serve, is that the proper swing path to twist the ball is 7-1, or 8-2.. We talked breifly about the ball toss but we did not "conclude" that the twist serve is a topspin slice serve. Predrag concluded that because of the name of the gif..

I consider a topspin slice serve to be a poorly hit kick serve. Usually intermediate players try to hit a kick serve and out comes a topspin slice serve because of an incorrect ball toss or incorrect swing path. So it causes the ball to be a half-*** kick serve: one that doesn't really kick and doesn't really slice... Again, the twist serve for a rightly will sweave to the opponents forehand in the air, bounce, and then kick towards the opponents backhand... This behavior definitely does not happen on a topspin-slice serve.

Yes, that is the correct ball path for a twist serve - hence the word twist.

The topspin slice will for the most part continue along the ball paths flight but the topspin will slow it down and cause it to bounce up more instead of staying low. But it will still resemble a slice "kinda" serve.

Bungalo Bill
09-29-2004, 11:45 AM
The conclusion of the previous thread about hitting twist serve, is that the proper swing path to twist the ball is 7-1, or 8-2.. We talked breifly about the ball toss but we did not "conclude" that the twist serve is a topspin slice serve. Predrag concluded that because of the name of the gif..

I consider a topspin slice serve to be a poorly hit kick serve. Usually intermediate players try to hit a kick serve and out comes a topspin slice serve because of an incorrect ball toss or incorrect swing path. So it causes the ball to be a half-*** kick serve: one that doesn't really kick and doesn't really slice... Again, the twist serve for a rightly will sweave to the opponents forehand in the air, bounce, and then kick towards the opponents backhand... This behavior definitely does not happen on a topspin-slice serve.

Twist Serve is something that I did not do until I started experimenting aproximately a month ago.
Now I realize that what I was doing was Topspin Slice.
Yesterday I was trashing the guy bad enough that I felt comfortable experimenting
with the serve.

Yes you are right, toss little to the left and the effect is more pronounced.
This is great addition to my regular kicker.

Well, you learn somthing every day :)

Regards, Predrag

Yeah it is a great serve to have. Now I will tell you a little secret to practice. Work on hitting this serve more at the top of the racquet face and feel the racquet really brush. It takes some practice to get the right feel.

It will feel different at first trying to get the hang of it. But here is what I do with this serve.

I am lefthanded serving to the duece court. I want the twist effect even though I know it is going to the persons forehand. So here is what happens and what I can do with the ball:

I will hit the ball with a pretty high arc. The ball has so much spin revolutions going that it looks oblong in the air. When the ball is shaped like that it takes a path like a knuckle ball or a balloon that is deflating in the air. I aim it for the alley line and the ball because of the arc and the topspin on the ball will curve and hit a little further up than mid court area.

The ball actually curves out in the alley before curving back in. With the "knuckleball" look in the air and it going into the alley in the air, a lot of players will not go after it thinking it is going to be out. Once they see it quickly curve back in, their feet start moving and by that time it is too late, because it will curve back in, they will bite in that direction, and then it kicks back the other way.

It is a nasty serve and one worth trying to see if you can get it.

predrag
09-29-2004, 11:57 AM
Yeah it is a great serve to have. Now I will tell you a little secret to practice. Work on hitting this serve more at the top of the racquet face and feel the racquet really brush. It takes some practice to get the right feel.

It will feel different at first trying to get the hang of it. But here is what I do with this serve.

I am lefthanded serving to the duece court. I want the twist effect even though I know it is going to the persons forehand. So here is what happens and what I can do with the ball:

I will hit the ball with a pretty high arc. The ball has so much spin revolutions going that it looks oblong in the air. When the ball is shaped like that it takes a path like a knuckle ball or a balloon that is deflating in the air. I aim it for the alley line and the ball because of the arc and the topspin on the ball will curve and hit a little further up than mid court area.

The ball actually curves out in the alley before curving back in. With the "knuckleball" look in the air and it going into the alley in the air, a lot of players will not go after it thinking it is going to be out. Once they see it quickly curve back in, their feet start moving and by that time it is too late, because it will curve back in, they will bite in that direction, and then it kicks back the other way.

It is a nasty serve and one worth trying to see if you can get it.

I have just returned from the lunch break that I spent on the court :):)

I was combining the new serve with my old kick.
Toss is actually at the same place. For the Twist I need to have my racquet more to the left.
For the kick I need to sneak under more to be able to hit that 5-11 brush.
Since it is coming from the same place the difference is in the racquet path. I am
wondering how much disguise I am getting.
Certainly more than when I hit slice or flat.


Regards, Predrag

Kaptain Karl
09-29-2004, 12:43 PM
I agree with TwistServe. We’ve always said “Twist” and “Kick” were two names for the same serve. The Topspin Slice is not a Twist serve ... at least not in my neighborhood.

Once you get to an advanced competitive level (Maybe this is HS. Maybe it’s college.) it’s a good idea to learn how to hit all your serves from the same toss. Some of you guys “telegraph” the serve with your exaggerated toss locations.

My toss “spot” is about midway between the Flat and Topspin Slice location on the diagram several posts above. I can hit Slice, Flat, or Kick ... all with that toss. And (since I haven’t played on clay for years) I just don’t bother with Topspin or Topspin Slice. (Those two are way more effective on clay, and IMO, just not worth the extra work on hard courts.)

- KK

Bungalo Bill
09-29-2004, 12:47 PM
I agree with TwistServe. We’ve always said “Twist” and “Kick” were two names for the same serve. The Topspin Slice is not a Twist serve ... at least not in my neighborhood.

Once you get to an advanced competitive level (Maybe this is HS. Maybe it’s college.) it’s a good idea to learn how to hit all your serves from the same toss. Some of you guys “telegraph” the serve with your exaggerated toss locations.

My toss “spot” is about midway between the Flat and Topspin Slice location on the diagram several posts above. I can hit Slice, Flat, or Kick ... all with that toss. And (since I haven’t played on clay for years) I just don’t bother with Topspin or Topspin Slice. (Those two are way more effective on clay, and IMO, just not worth the extra work on hard courts.)

- KK

I couldnt agree with your more on hitting your serves from the same toss.

Boris Becker often said this is was what drove him crazy when he played Sampras. Sampras hit all of his serves from the same toss.

This is easier said then done. It takes a good amount of practice and some players (even advanced players) may not be able to do this at all.

Kaptain Karl
09-29-2004, 12:49 PM
Wow! I just read that “Why does my Kick kick the wrong way” thread and all I can say is I hope I never meet Predrag in a tournament. Once I got used to seeing his motion ... I’d still probably not be able to return those serves. 5 - 11??? Geez!!!

- KK

predrag
09-29-2004, 12:57 PM
Wow! I just read that “Why does my Kick kick the wrong way” thread and all I can say is I hope I never meet Predrag in a tournament. Once I got used to seeing his motion ... I’d still probably not be able to return those serves. 5 - 11??? Geez!!!

- KK

Thank you thank you thank you :)

I wish my knees could stand the strain of playing tournament :)

Definitely need to loose weight :(


Regarding your mention of the same toss location, I absolutely agree.
I started working with my 10 y.o. on that.
When he tosses the ball I tell him "flat" or "topspin"
The way Sampras used to practice.

Regards, Predrag

Kaptain Karl
09-29-2004, 07:03 PM
badmice2 - I use an exaggerated backhand grip ... for all my serves. Why would you advise people to avoid it?

- KK

Kaptain Karl
09-30-2004, 10:30 AM
BB - Thanks for the reminder that not *everyone* can hit all their serves with the same toss. Because it was relatively easy for me, I expect it to be so for others too. (It may have been the only tip I was ever able to (relatively) quickly incorporate in my game.)

[Among the 24 Varsity and JV kids on our team, only one player -- one of our #1 Doubles players -- could “probably” manage this. Three of my four siblings were teaching pros and ranked as Junior players; I am the only family member who can do this. I was the only member of my college team who could do this.]

Okay, BB. I am sufficiently mindful again ... for a while. Thanks.

- KK

kevhen
09-30-2004, 11:00 AM
Yes, the better players can disguise spin and location with a consistent toss or can hit to either corner with an inside or outside toss so that you have to stay put until the ball is struck.

My toss is generally the same for my slice and flat serve and just slightly lower like 6 inches for my topspin serve but in the same location, but I will toss left (for slower kick serves) or right (for slower slice serves) once in a while just for variation and to mix up the returner with a different look or to get them out of any rhythm.

But it is valuable to disguise the serve spin and location by keeping the toss as uniform as possible. Plus it makes it easier to serve if you put the ball in the same place every time.

Kaptain Karl
09-30-2004, 11:26 AM
From kevhen:
Plus it makes it easier to serve if you put the ball in the same place every time. Very true. Why add more complexity to the game by having five different *tosses* for your five serves...?

- KK

papa
10-03-2004, 02:05 PM
"The Kaptain" wrote:

"badmice2 - I use an exaggerated backhand grip ... for all my serves. Why would you advise people to avoid it?"

Waiting also for the answer to this one. Its not the first time its been mentioned in various posts but I don't recall an answer. My only conclusion is that it might be too difficult to teach but I don't know.