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chaognosis
05-25-2007, 12:45 PM
Does anyone (urban? Moose? SgtJohn?) know of an approximate count of the total number of titles won by either Fred Perry or Don Budge--both amateur and pro? I know of rough figures for guys like Rosewall and Laver, and even Tilden, so I suspect someone out there has an estimate.

urban
05-25-2007, 01:01 PM
Chaognosis, there are even fewer data for the pre war era, than for the post war period up to 1968. Michel Sutter has a book written about the 1946 to 2005 period. As amateurs Budge and Perry played not that many official events in a year, maybe 12-15. They focussed on the Davis Cup campaigns. There were exhibitions too, like in Australia, where they often played nation matches. In one of those von Cramm beat Budge in a great match begin 1938, shortly before his arrest by the ****s. I once read. that Budge had a run of over 90 unbeaten matches 37-38, before he lost in the two last amateur events he played in California. Outside his Grand Slam, Budge won in 1938- in my estimation - maybe 10 tournaments. I would give him around 30 amateur events and some 30 pro events, plus some pro head to head tours. Perry around the same numbers.

chaognosis
05-25-2007, 02:12 PM
I once read. that Budge had a run of over 90 unbeaten matches 37-38, before he lost in the two last amateur events he played in California.

I've heard the same - 92 straight wins, I believe.

Thanks for your thoughts. I am curious, if there is so little concrete information about Perry and Budge, where the estimate of Tilden's 145 titles on Wikipedia comes from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis%2C_male_players_statistics

urban
05-25-2007, 10:43 PM
To Tilden: there is a number given in 'Total Tennis', that Tilden won some 138 titles. I don't know, if its reliable, there are no details given. To my knowledge, Frank Deford has no statistical appendix.

urban
05-25-2007, 11:57 PM
Tennis isn't the only sport with fragile data. You can see it on the recent discussion on the 1000 th goal in football by Romario. The criteria of official and non-official games and goals are dubious. They say, Pele scored over 1200 goals, but only around 700 seem to be scored in official matches. Other players i know, who are in this discussion are Brasilian Arthur Friedenreich (around 1920), Austrian Franz 'Bimbo' Binder (30s), major Ferenc Puskas from Hungary (big star of the 50s and early 60s.) and German 'bomber' Gerd Müller. From what i know, Romario has indeed the highest number of official goals with round 740.

SgtJohn
05-26-2007, 01:59 AM
Hi everyone:

Chaognosis, here is what I gather from several books:
Budge: 27 amateur titles, 15 pro titles

Perry:34 amateur titles, 19 pro titles

For Tilden, I get 133 wins, so my stats are probably quite accurate compared to wikipedia's and Collins's...

The numbers are low for the pro period, but of course it comes from the fact that the pro circuit was dominated by tours instead of tournaments.
As for the amateur period, Budge and Perry seem to have played only very big events, compared to Tilden who played everything in the US: they focused on PSW Los Angeles, Berkeley Pacific Coast, Newport Casino, London Queen's etc.

I don't know about the 90-match winning streak by Budge, I don't have the information, but it seems possible, as he won 14 events in 1937-1938, then it would be the equivalent of 90 matches approximately. It's all the more impressive as these were only very big events , as I said.


Urban is right about the Davis Cup; it is not included in the stats above, but the players prepared for each tie as for a big tournament, so Perry's 4 Cup victories, and Budge's 2 ought to be counted.

Jonathan

chaognosis
05-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Hi everyone:

Chaognosis, here is what I gather from several books:
Budge: 27 amateur titles, 15 pro titles

Perry:34 amateur titles, 19 pro titles

For Tilden, I get 133 wins, so my stats are probably quite accurate compared to wikipedia's and Collins's...

The numbers are low for the pro period, but of course it comes from the fact that the pro circuit was dominated by tours instead of tournaments.
As for the amateur period, Budge and Perry seem to have played only very big events, compared to Tilden who played everything in the US: they focused on PSW Los Angeles, Berkeley Pacific Coast, Newport Casino, London Queen's etc.

I don't know about the 90-match winning streak by Budge, I don't have the information, but it seems possible, as he won 14 events in 1937-1938, then it would be the equivalent of 90 matches approximately. It's all the more impressive as these were only very big events , as I said.


Urban is right about the Davis Cup; it is not included in the stats above, but the players prepared for each tie as for a big tournament, so Perry's 4 Cup victories, and Budge's 2 ought to be counted.

Jonathan

Wonderful, thank you!

Q&M son
05-15-2008, 06:13 PM
For Tilden, I get 133 wins...


Jonathan

Do you know why the difference (138 vs 133)?



I don't know about the 90-match winning streak by Budge, I don't have the information, but it seems possible, as he won 14 events in 1937-1938, then it would be the equivalent of 90 matches approximately. It's all the more impressive as these were only very big events , as I said.

Jonathan

Somebody has more info about this one?

AndrewTas
05-16-2008, 05:32 AM
I've heard the same - 92 straight wins, I believe.

Thanks for your thoughts. I am curious, if there is so little concrete information about Perry and Budge, where the estimate of Tilden's 145 titles on Wikipedia comes from.

Budge: 27 amateur titles, 15 pro titles

Perry:34 amateur titles, 19 pro titles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennis%2C_male_players_statistics

I have the same tournament wins totals for Perry and Budge (but only 18 pro titles for Perry). From the Hall of Fame web site Tilden won 138 of 192 amateur tournaments he played, lost 28 finals and had a 907-62 match record. Also he won at least 14 pro tournaments so his total is close to 152. I can only account for 118 of the 138 amateur and 14 pro tournaments.

As for Budge's winning streak I have also read that his winning streak was 92. This streak is from tournament and Davis Cup play, but he did lose some exhibitions and friendly's.

Here is his 1937 and 1938 singles record with some missing matches.


1937

January 4-10
Miami Biltimore
SF d. Harris 26 62 62 61
F lost Grant 62 75 60

DF Budge/ Hendrix d. Grant/ Sabin 63 62


January 11-17
Dixie Championships
1R d. Busbee 62 62
2R d. Rose 62 60
QF d. Cooke
SF d. Harris 63 62
F lost Grant 46 63 63 26 62

DSF Parker/ Senior d. Budge/ Hendrix 97 64


14 tournaments and 92 match streak in tournament and Davis Cup play

1. February 1-7
Miami Surf Club Invitation
2R d. Marcum
SF d. Hendrix 61 62 61
F d. Grant 63 26 64 64

DSF Harris/ McCauliff d. Budge/ Harris 26 64 1210

__________________________________________________ ________________

February 9
Exhibition match Nassau Bahamas
d. Hendrix


February 14
Exhibition match Atlanta
d. Grant 57 63 64

__________________________________________________ ________________

April 30-May 2
Davis Cup vs Japan
d. Nakano 61 61 60
d. Yamagishi 62 62 64

May 29-31
Davis Cup vs Australia
d. Crawford 61 63 62
d. Bromwich 62 63 57 61

2 June 14
Queens Club
1R ?
2R d. Van Den Eynde 60 63
3R d. Williams (14 minutes and lost 1 game)
Qf ?
SF d. Nakano 62 60
F d. Austin 61 62

DF Budge/ Mako d. Boussus/ Petra 61 79 61


3 Wimbledon
1R d. Farquharson 63 62 61
2R d. Hughes 62 62 62
3R d. Boussus 61 64 62
4R d. Hecht 64 62 62
QF d. McGrath 63 61 64
SF d. Parker 63 61 64
F d. von Cramm 63 64 62


July 17-20
Davis Cup vs Germany
d. Henkel 62 61 63
d. von Cramm 68 57 64 62 86


July 24-27
Davis Cup vs England
d. Hare 1513 61 62
d. Austin 86 36 64 63


August 7-14
Eastern Grass Court Rye
DF Budge/ Mako d. Shields/ Parker 26 86 62 36 63


August 16-21
4 Newport
2R d. Bowman 86 86
3R d. Guernsey 4 sets
QF d. McDiarmid 108 75 36 63
SF d. Grant 86 60 60
F d. Riggs 64 68 61 62

DF Budge/ Mako d. Hughes/ Hare 36 46 62 64 62


5 US Champs
1R bye
2R d. Winslow 63 63 63
3R d. Abrams 60 61 61
4R d. Petra 60 63 61
QF d. Hunt 61 62 64
SF d. Parker 62 61 63
F d. von Cramm 61 79 61 36 61

__________________________________________________ ________________

Sept 13 Exhibition Detroit
d. Mako 108 63

Sept 14 Chicago Exhibition
von Cramm/ Henkel d. Budge/ Mako 97 26 75 75
lost Henkel 64 108

__________________________________________________ ________________


Sept 17
6 Pacific Southwest
1R d. Wellman
2R
3R
Qf d. Yamagishi 86 63
SF d. Mako 86 60 60
F d. von Cramm 26 75 64 75


October 3
7 Pacific Coast Championships
QF d. Yamagishi
SF d. Kovacs 64 57 75 62
F d. Riggs 46 63 62 64

DF Budge/ Sabin d. von Cramm/ Henkel 63 64 63


December 1
8 Victorian Championships
QF d. Crawford 75 64 36 86
SF d. McGrath 86 63 86
F d. Bromwich 86 63 97

DF Crawford/ McGrath d. Budge/ Mako 16 63 64 75

__________________________________________________ ________________

Dec 16-18
USA vs Australia Sydney
d. Quist 46 75 61 60
lost Bromwich 62 63 810 64

December 27 Sydney Exhibition
lost Von Cramm 61 63 (apologises for match and says will play against Crawford)

December 29 Sydney Exhibition
d. Crawford 75 61 61


1938


January 8th Melbourne
Tri-angular
lost von Cramm 64 810 1210
d. Bromwich 64 86


Adelaide January 15th
lost Bromwich 68 61 63

__________________________________________________ ________________

9
1938 Australian Champs
1R d. Hancock 62 63 64
2R d. Whillians 61 60 61
QF d. Schwartz 64 63 108
SF d. Quist 57 64 61 62
F d. Bromwich 64 62 61


10
French Championships
1R bye
2R d. Gentien 61 62 64
3R d. Mohammed 61 61 57 60
4R d. Kukuljevic 62 86 26 16 61
QF d. Destremau 64 63 64
SF d. Pallada 62 63 63
F d. Menzel 63 62 64


11
Wimbledon
1R d. Gandar Dower 62 63 63
2R d. Billington 75 61 61
3R d. Rogers 60 75 61
4R d. Shayes 63 64 61
QF d. Cejnar 63 60 75
SF d. Puncec 62 61 64
F d. Austin 61 60 63

__________________________________________________ ________________

July 5th
United States vs Hungary
Budapest
d. Szigeti 46 64 64
lost Asboth 61 86 30 retired

__________________________________________________ ________________

July 10th
12
Prague Czechoslovakia Champs
SF d. Drobny 64 64 46 68 62
F d. Hecht 61 64 64

DF Budge/ Mako d. Hecht/ Drobny 63 75 97

__________________________________________________ ________________

July 13th
USA vs Yugoslavia Exhibitions
Budge d. Puncec 62 62
Budge lost to Kukuljevic 1513 75
Budge lost to Puncec

__________________________________________________ ________________

13.
August 15
Newport Casino
1R ?
2R ?
3R d. Henderson 64 63
QF d. Allison 79 86 64 97
SF d. Parker 63 61 63
F d. Wood 63 63 62

DF Budge/ Mako d. Allison/ Ryn 75 75 62


September 3-5
Davis Cup vs Australia
d. Bromwich 62 63 46 75
d. Quist 86 61 62


14
US Champs ended Sept 24 because of rain
1R bye
2R d. van Horn 60 60 61
3R d. Kamrath 63 75 97
4R d. Hare 63 64 60
QF d. Hopman 63 61 63
SF d. Wood 63 63 63
F d. Mako 63 68 62 61


September 28
Pacific Southwest
1R d. Carruthers 64 63
QF d. Lubin 63 16 63
SF lost Quist 75 62 57 62

Streak ended with Quist loss

October 6
Pacific Coast Championships
2R d. Pedlar 62 61
3R d. Shayes 64 60
QF lost Hopman 62 57 61 (October 9)

urban
05-16-2008, 06:09 AM
Interesting list, Andrew Tas. I would single out the clay events for a moment, because it was Budge's weakest (relatively) surface. Budge lost one match to Yugoslav Puncec, who was a solid clay player, and to Kukuljevic, who had taken Budge to 5 at RG. And he was taken to 5 sets at Prague by a very young Jaroslav Drobny, who must have been 17 or 18 by the time. I think, Budge was a bit lucky, not to face von Cramm on clay at Paris in 1938. Budge was losing the grip on von Cramm a bit, even on grass. The match at Melbourne in 1938, that von Cramm won at that Continental Cup (i read it was two sets to nil for von Cramm) was regarded by witnesses as better than their famous encounter at DC the year before. To Budge's credit it is to say, that he opposed the ban on von Cramm by the Gestapo.
And i thought, that von Cramm/ Henkel beat Budge/ Mako for the US championship doubles crown in 1937, one of the few losses of the famous US pair.

jeffreyneave
05-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Thank you andrew for a great list again.

Budge's tournament/davis cup streak does not seem to add up to 92 matches; its about 82. Do you think you are missing a tournament; What happened between the Aussie open 1938 and the French; he seems to have taken a long rest.

jeffrey

AndrewTas
05-17-2008, 12:46 AM
I think that he only played 14 tournaments which is what is stated in Bud Collins Total Tennis. I am missing some early round matches in the tournaments documented but think this is how he won the 92 matches.

Miami Surf Club (4-0)
Davis Cup vs Japan (2-0)
Davis Cup vs Australia (2-0)
Queens Club (6-0)
Wimbledon (7-0)
Davis Cup vs Germany (2-0)
Davis Cup vs England (2-0)
Newport (6-0)
US Champs (6-0)
Pacific Southwest (5-0)
Pacific Coast (5-0)
Victorian Champs (6-0)
Australian Champs (5-0)
French Champs (6-0)
Wimbledon (7-0)
Czech Champs (5-0)
Newport (6-0)
Davis Cup vs Australia (2-0)
US Champs (6-0)
Pacific Southwest (2 matches before loss)

Q&M son
05-17-2008, 09:25 AM
Great add AndrewTas!
Thank you.

Lucio.

chaognosis
05-17-2008, 01:01 PM
Yes, thank you for your list!

Best info on this that I've yet seen.

Q&M son
09-09-2008, 12:09 PM
Look Tilden 24/25 record here, thanks to AndrewTas:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=215389

urban
09-09-2008, 12:20 PM
One match of Budge with von Cramm of the Australian Matches begin 1938, documented by Pathe pictures, is now shown on the Old vids side, along with other clips of Tilden, Vines at Wembley and MSG, Kozeluh, Perry and Nüsslein. Begin 1938 it looked, that von Cramm began to get Budge's number. Too sad, that he was internated by the Gestapo after his Australasian tour.

garcia_doomer
05-27-2009, 07:20 PM
Bump!
Nice reading, very good data included!

pc1
05-27-2009, 08:04 PM
I have read that Robert Geist had Tilden at 148 tournament victories a few years ago. I think he may have a higher number for Tilden now.

Borgforever
05-27-2009, 08:25 PM
148! For the 20s, 30s, 40s -- that's one of the greatest stats I've ever heard. I mean the traveling was so problematic that it mostly torpedoed the carefully developed form of any athlete and Big Bill still pockets 148.

How about that...

Nalbandian great
05-28-2009, 07:11 AM
Bump!
Nice reading, very good data included!

Right, thank you