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ATPballkid
05-26-2007, 01:33 PM
ALL-TIME RECORDS FOR NAVRATILOVA AT WIMBY AND WTA CHMPS

Wimbledon ................ 9 for Navratilova* vs. only 7 for Graf.
WTA Championships .. 8 for Navratilova* vs. only 5 for Graf.

* all-time record number of singles titles at these events.


MAJOR EVENTS THAT NAVRATILOVA SKIPPED 23 TIMES TOTAL

Australian Open ....... 3 for Navratilova with 13 years skipped.
Australian Open ....... 4 for Graf with 7 years skipped.

French Open ............ 2 for Navratilova with 10 years skipped.
French Open ............ 6 for Graf with 1 year skipped.


U.S. OPEN

U.S. Open ... Navratilova was 4-1 vs. Graf at the U.S. Open, but Navratilova won this event 4 times vs. 5 for Graf.

ATPballkid
05-26-2007, 01:47 PM
Best Annual%

1 Martina Navratilova 86-1 0.989 1983
2 Steffi Graf 86-2 0.977 1989
3 Martina Navratilova 78-2 0.975 1984
4 Steffi Graf 75-2 0.974 1987
5 Martina Navratilova 90-3 0.968 1982
6 Martina Navratilova 89-3 0.967 1986
7 Steffi Graf 72-3 0.960 1988
8 Martina Navratilova 84-5 0.944 1985

navratilovafan
05-26-2007, 07:24 PM
Thank you so much. Navratilova is head and shoulders above Graf. It annoys the heck out of me when Graf is even a name brought up as possibly being greater then Martina. Like I said I feel very strongly that Martina is the worthy GOAT, I do admit to bias, but I still feel very strongly even trying to be objective that she is the worthy recepient of tha title. However I still acknowledge that there are others you could reasonably argue, I dont agree with someone else, but I do acknowledge there are others you could make an argument for. Not Graf though, there is absolutely no way to even make an logicial argument of Graf being over Navratilova.

Navratilova owns records at 2 of the 5 biggest events-Wimbledon and the year end Championships, while Graf does at none of the 5. Navratilova's record at Wimbledon and the year end Championships is far over Graf. At the U.S Open Graf has one more title, but that is hardly enough to overcome the embarassing stat of her 1-4 head to head vs Navratilova, when Navratilova played 4 of those 5 from a couple months before her 30th birthday to when she was 34, and Graf was between ages 17 and 22. So at the U.S Open an aging Navratilova, at the same ages Graf was retired, was dominating a prime Graf. Thank you for pointing out how many Australians and French Opens Navratilova missed. People that understand tennis know that those events were not played every year before 1981, and in fact other events like the Avon Championships or the Virginia Slims Championships were considered bigger then. The reason Graf has so many more is she played so many more. Plus Navratilova had a little someone named Evert stopping her from winning more French Opens, you know the 2nd greatest player of all time and the absolute greatest clay court player of all time.

Oh yeah I would add Graf's competition became a joke after Seles was stabbed. Not only was the player dominating Graf removed by a knife but who the heck emerged to replace her? After Seles was stabbed the field totally sucked for awhile, until the new young players-Hingis, Williams, Davenport, emerged AFTER Graf went down with injuries anyways; so the field did not become tough again until Graf's dominance was already over. Hingis isnt even that great, but she only came into her own "after" Graf went down with injuries so she was never a real opponent to Graf during her dominance, just a 14 and 15 year old girl still coming into her own. Conchita Martinez spent parts of 2 of those years-1995 and 1996 ranked #2 in the World, CONCHITA MARTINEZ!!! Good grief. The chubby girl who played about 20 feet back behind the baseline, and had no serve, no net game, and hardly any weapons at all, yet she was ranked #2 for parts of 2 years in Graf's post Seles-stabbing dominance. What kind of competition is that. People say Navratilova only had Evert? I dont agree with that accessment, but lets say for arguments sake I accept that, fine Navratilova only had Evert then, but Graf had NOBODY after Seles was stabbed, nobody at all. Also if you say Sanchez, Mandlikova was as good or better then Sanchez. You never had the likes of Conchita Martinez spend significant time as World #2 when Navratilova dominated, her competition never disintegrated to that point.

Warriorroger
05-27-2007, 11:41 AM
Thank you so much. Navratilova is head and shoulders above Graf. It annoys the heck out of me when Graf is even a name brought up as possibly being greater then Martina. Like I said I feel very strongly that Martina is the worthy GOAT, I do admit to bias, but I still feel very strongly even trying to be objective that she is the worthy recepient of tha title. However I still acknowledge that there are others you could reasonably argue, I dont agree with someone else, but I do acknowledge there are others you could make an argument for. Not Graf though, there is absolutely no way to even make an logicial argument of Graf being over Navratilova.

Navratilova owns records at 2 of the 5 biggest events-Wimbledon and the year end Championships, while Graf does at none of the 5. Navratilova's record at Wimbledon and the year end Championships is far over Graf. At the U.S Open Graf has one more title, but that is hardly enough to overcome the embarassing stat of her 1-4 head to head vs Navratilova, when Navratilova played 4 of those 5 from a couple months before her 30th birthday to when she was 34, and Graf was between ages 17 and 22. So at the U.S Open an aging Navratilova, at the same ages Graf was retired, was dominating a prime Graf. Thank you for pointing out how many Australians and French Opens Navratilova missed. People that understand tennis know that those events were not played every year before 1981, and in fact other events like the Avon Championships or the Virginia Slims Championships were considered bigger then. The reason Graf has so many more is she played so many more. Plus Navratilova had a little someone named Evert stopping her from winning more French Opens, you know the 2nd greatest player of all time and the absolute greatest clay court player of all time.

Oh yeah I would add Graf's competition became a joke after Seles was stabbed. Not only was the player dominating Graf removed by a knife but who the heck emerged to replace her? After Seles was stabbed the field totally sucked for awhile, until the new young players-Hingis, Williams, Davenport, emerged AFTER Graf went down with injuries anyways; so the field did not become tough again until Graf's dominance was already over. Hingis isnt even that great, but she only came into her own "after" Graf went down with injuries so she was never a real opponent to Graf during her dominance, just a 14 and 15 year old girl still coming into her own. Conchita Martinez spent parts of 2 of those years-1995 and 1996 ranked #2 in the World, CONCHITA MARTINEZ!!! Good grief. The chubby girl who played about 20 feet back behind the baseline, and had no serve, no net game, and hardly any weapons at all, yet she was ranked #2 for parts of 2 years in Graf's post Seles-stabbing dominance. What kind of competition is that. People say Navratilova only had Evert? I dont agree with that accessment, but lets say for arguments sake I accept that, fine Navratilova only had Evert then, but Graf had NOBODY after Seles was stabbed, nobody at all. Also if you say Sanchez, Mandlikova was as good or better then Sanchez. You never had the likes of Conchita Martinez spend significant time as World #2 when Navratilova dominated, her competition never disintegrated to that point.

Perhaps, you should wonder why Martina avoided so many meetings with Graf in the 80s, playing different tournaments.

I think it's great and fitting that two great champions tied at 9-9 head to head.Martina is great as a player and for her accomplishments, no doubt about it. She is the greatest player concerning that for all her titles in singles and doubles.

Steffi Graf on the other hand is the greater tennisplayer, for one simple reason: her mastery on all surfaces. Sure Chris has more clay titles, Martina more grass, but Steffi dominated on all four. But who cares, I thinks she is great and I respect the fact that you find Martina the greatest.

superstition
05-27-2007, 05:30 PM
This Navratilova vs. Graf stuff is really silly. People should really break things down to the details, such as:

Graf: Better slice backhand.
Graf: Better topspin forehand.
Graf: Better movement (faster)
Graf: Better on clay.
Graf: Driven and consistent when young.
Nav: Better volleys.
Nav: Better serve.
Nav: Better approach shots.
Nav: More longevity.
Nav: Better in doubles.
Nav: Better on grass.

Consider that a 30 year old Martina played a nearly 18 year old Graf in the final of Roland Garros and took her to three sets. She should have won the match, too. She had Graf down 15-40 in two service games in the third set and was up 5-2. Plus, in the first set, she let slip the opening game where she was up 30-0 and had other chances. Graf hung in there, but the match was Martina's. In the end, she beat herself. This was when Graf was in top physical shape and was continuing a 37 match streak. Yet, Martina was able to dominate, on clay, for most of the match, only letting nerves get the best of her. Certainly, Graf played very well, especially when she came to net and in some passes. But, it has to be said that Martina was able to raise her level of play throughout her career, despite her age, more than probably any other female player. The speed difference between that final and the 1986 final against Chris is immense. Martina played so much better against Graf, despite being older.

Martina owns many "best female player of all time" distinctions, but it's the details that matter, not labeling a single player as the "best ever". I think that doing that is unfair to the other players, because tennis is a game of details. For instance, Martina cannot be called the greatest female tennis player ever when it comes to playing on clay.

Graf was a fine player. I think Navratilova was more impressive, particularly given her amazing longevity, but Graf's talent and drive shouldn't be discounted. If Navratilova had been as driven as Graf was when she was young, she would have been something to see. Perhaps, though, she wouldn't have been as driven later on if that had been the case.

The point of all this is... Martina is probably the greatest female grass court player of all time, the greatest female serve/volley player of all time, the greatest female doubles player of all time, and perhaps a few more. But, she is not the total package. No player is. She is not the greatest baseliner of all time, or clay courter, etc.

ATPballkid
05-27-2007, 07:57 PM
Perhaps, you should wonder why Martina avoided so many meetings with Graf in the 80s, playing different tournaments.

Steffi Graf on the other hand is the greater tennisplayer, for one simple reason: her mastery on all surfaces. Sure Chris has more clay titles, Martina more grass, but Steffi dominated on all four. But who cares, I thinks she is great and I respect the fact that you find Martina the greatest.

It took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

The title of the Greatest Female Tennis Player in history belongs to Martina Navratilova.


Navratilova have more Wimbledon titles and more WTA Championships.
Navratilova have the all-time record at Wimbledon.
Navratilova have the all-time record at the WTA Championships.
Navratilova have won more singles titles than any player in tennis history.
Navratilova have won more doubles titles than any player in tennis history.
Navratilova have won more singles and doubles titles than any player in tennis history.
Navratilova is the only player in women's tennis history to win Grand Slam titles in 4 consecutive decades -- 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s.


Martina Navratilova leads in several categories while Graf does NOT lead in any all-time categories.


Court has the most Slam singles titles.
Court has the most Slam titles total (including doubles).
Navratilova has the most Wimbledon singles titles (9).
Navratilova and King have the most Wimbledon total (20).
Navratilova has the most Tour Championships (8 ).
Wills Moody have the most Slams on grass courts (15).
Wills Moody has the most Wimbledon and U.S. singles total.
Wills Moody has the most years ranked #1 (9).
Wills Moody has the most consecutive years ranked #1.
Evert has the most Slams on clay (10).
Evert has the most French Championships (7).
Evert has the most consecutive years winning a Slam (13).
Evert has the best winning percentage.
Evert has the best record of reaching semis or better.
Mallory has the record for most U.S. Championships.

That doesn't leave a lot of room for Graf.


Graf's records:

Most weeks ranked #1 on the WTA computer since 1975.
Most singles titles on hardcourts since 1978.
Most U.S. Opens on hardcourts since 1978.
Most Australian Opens on hardcourts since 1988.


All within the last 30 years .. as opposed, of course, to the all-time records which go back 120 years.

ATPballkid
05-27-2007, 08:06 PM
Perhaps, you should wonder why Martina avoided so many meetings with Graf in the 80s, playing different tournaments.



That is your opinion, Warriorroger ... and Graf's record was inflated by the stabbing of the #1 player in women's tennis who in April 1993 as a teenager, the #1 ranked Monica Seles (who had won 10 of the last 12 biggest events in women's tennis) was stabbed in the back by a Graf fan.

Navratilova has a winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events and in WTA Tour Championships -- even though Navratilova was winning these matches when she was older than Graf was when Graf retired.

ATPballkid
05-27-2007, 08:12 PM
Martina avoided so many meetings with Graf



How many of the all-time greatest 10 women players did Graf have to contend with after Gunther Parche had stabbed the teenage phenom and world #1 Monica Seles in the back with a knife in 1993?

In her career, Navratilova had to play Chris Evert, Billie Jean King, Evonne Goolagong, Margaret Court, Steffi Graf, Monica Seles, Maria Bueno ... really, every major player in women's tennis during the 36 years of the Open Era except for Martina Hingis, Justine Henin-Hardenne, Kim Clijsters, Venus Williams and Serena Williams.

superstition
05-27-2007, 08:13 PM
Some argue that there was more depth in women's tennis during Graf's career. After all, she had to face Martina, Seles, Capriati, Sanchez-Vicario, Sabatini, young Hingis, and others. The depth argument is really subjective, though, since players like Court and BJK mostly predated Martina and Martina had to face Evert and other players who managed to beat her in her prime.

As I've said, though, the real issue is not who is the greatest ever, since no player did/does everything the best. Instead, it's "who is the best at this or that", specific parts of the game.

backhander
05-27-2007, 08:24 PM
As I've said, though, the real issue is not who is the greatest ever, since no player did/does everything the best. Instead, it's "who is the best at this or that", specific parts of the game.

Good point, I agree :) , especially when comparing Graf to Navratilova.

FedSampras
05-27-2007, 08:48 PM
Some argue that there was more depth in women's tennis during Graf's career. After all, she had to face Martina, Seles, Capriati, Sanchez-Vicario, Sabatini, young Hingis, and others. The depth argument is really subjective, though, since players like Court and BJK mostly predated Martina and Martina had to face Evert and other players who managed to beat her in her prime.

As I've said, though, the real issue is not who is the greatest ever, since no player did/does everything the best. Instead, it's "who is the best at this or that", specific parts of the game.

martina has more titles, played longer, has a tied record with graff in head to head matches (unbelievable, considering the age difference), but has less GS titles and less weeks at number 1....then again, graff's career clearly, and quite immediately, benefitted from the KNIFING of seles. graff's GS count and her total weeks at number one were clearly aided by the stabbing....in terms of weeks at number one, in particular, graff almosty immediately gained from the knifing of Seles without even playing very much....

FedSampras
05-27-2007, 09:03 PM
Some argue that there was more depth in women's tennis during Graf's career.

sports illustrated (august issue 2001) named steffi graff as the most overrated tennis player ( male or female) in history. it was mentioned in the article on how the german enormously benefitted from weak competition all throughout her career (seles stabbing and aging tennis greats navratilova and evert as rivals in her glory years 87-89). and that the stabbing of the best player in women's tennis also made it much easier for graff to win 22 slams ( half of it were won after the stabbing).

FedSampras
05-27-2007, 09:20 PM
The depth argument is really subjective,

No one ever won more slams vs. basket-case level competition than graff did. she faced no one tougher than asv and martinez after seles was stabbed. in case you forgot, seles was the top ranked dominant player and the 3 time defending champ at the Aussie, French, WTA tour champs, 2 time defending champ at US open and finalist at wimbledon at the time of the stabbing.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 07:11 AM
...

Slams: Graf 22 - Navratilova 18
Years as #1: Graf 8 - Navratilova 7
Golden Grand Slams: Graf 1 - Navratilova: zero

Navratilova has a lot more mixed doubles titles, though.

krosero
08-05-2007, 08:20 AM
Two names not yet mentioned in this thread: Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger.

Obviously, Graf benefited from the fact that Seles was stabbed. But I think it's just as obvious that Martina and Chris dominated the field so thoroughly in the mid 1980s because their younger rivals, the two women who were touted as their successors, were essentially taken out of the game by injuries. Seles, of course, was taken out by a brutal act, and was taken out more immediately, more dramatically. With Tracy and Andrea it was a slow slide out of the game. But they each had huge potential, particularly Austin. She was already struggling with injuries in 1981 when she beat Martina in the USO final -- and this was already after Martina had started training. We would have had a great rivalry if Austin had remained healthy.

So if Graf had 22 Slams partly due to Seles's absence, that does not mean that Navratilova had 18 Slams against her own best competition. Both women benefited from their chief younger competitor(s) dropping out of the game.

I don't think that Graf's 22 Slams automatically make her greater than Navratilova. But I think her edge in the Slams over Martina, if it's going to be boiled down to one thing, is due to Graf's greater proficiency over all surfaces. Martina won only two French Opens, while Graf won all the Slams at least four times, with 7 wins on Wimbledon grass (a surface on which she beat both Navratilova and Seles decisively) and 6 wins on slow Paris clay.

Consider that a 30 year old Martina played a nearly 18 year old Graf in the final of Roland Garros and took her to three sets. She should have won the match, too. She had Graf down 15-40 in two service games in the third set and was up 5-2. Plus, in the first set, she let slip the opening game where she was up 30-0 and had other chances. Graf hung in there, but the match was Martina's. In the end, she beat herself. This was when Graf was in top physical shape and was continuing a 37 match streak. Yet, Martina was able to dominate, on clay, for most of the match, only letting nerves get the best of her. Certainly, Graf played very well, especially when she came to net and in some passes. But, it has to be said that Martina was able to raise her level of play throughout her career, despite her age, more than probably any other female player. I don't think that Martina particularly suffered from being 30 in that match, due to her great conditioning. She defeated Graf the next month with as fine a performance at Wimbledon as she ever gave (IMO). Something was wrong with her in early 1987, but it was not age. As for Steffi, yes, she was young and essentially already in her prime, but not yet at her peak: she clearly got better in 1988. Also, that 1987 final was the first Slam final of her life, when she had still not gotten the better of Martina (having lost their only two Slam meetings); she was getting outplayed at times during the Paris final by a smart veteran with experience. But how well would Martina, even at her best, have done against Graf on red clay in 1988, 1992, or 1996?

Martina never did very well on Rebound Ace, where Graf excelled. As for grass and USO hard court, I think that these two women were, for all practical purposes, equal on those two surfaces. IMO the best example we have of a contest in which each woman was at her best, is the 1991 USO semi. That was extremely close: 7-6, 6-7, 6-4 for Martina. It was a very well played match, one of their best. Martina was indeed getting older then, but by the same token, Graf was playing one of her poorer seasons and did not look at mentally strong (to me) as she did, for example, in 1988 or 1995. She came to the net fewer times than in their 1989 USO final, and looked less confident in general.

The third set, which Martina won 6-4, was full of service breaks: five out of 10 games. It's the first two sets where they were really playing at their best, with two service breaks in the first set and two in the second. And they were even.

So it was not a perfect example of Graf's best against Navratilova's best, but I think it's the best we have.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 11:38 AM
Slams: Graf 22 - Navratilova 18
Years as #1: Graf 8 - Navratilova 7
Golden Grand Slams: Graf 1 - Navratilova: zero

Navratilova has a lot more mixed doubles titles, though.

Your not seriously going to put Graf winning a gold medal at the Olympics as being as important as winning a major?!?!? Not all the top players participate in the Olympics, which puts it on par with a Tier 2 event in women's tennis, not the same as a major. If you look on Wikipedia they list the draw for the '88 Olympics and it's clear that she was the ONLY truly premier player in her prime to play that year so her winning the event was a foregone conclusion. The only other truly premier player was Evert, who was by then clearly past her prime and lost early to Rafaella Reggi of Italy.

Way too much has always been made of Graf winning that gold medal.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 11:58 AM
Two names not yet mentioned in this thread: Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger.

Obviously, Graf benefited from the fact that Seles was stabbed. But I think it's just as obvious that Martina and Chris dominated the field so thoroughly in the mid 1980s because their younger rivals, the two women who were touted as their successors, were essentially taken out of the game by injuries. Seles, of course, was taken out by a brutal act, and was taken out more immediately, more dramatically. With Tracy and Andrea it was a slow slide out of the game. But they each had huge potential, particularly Austin. She was already struggling with injuries in 1981 when she beat Martina in the USO final -- and this was already after Martina had started training. We would have had a great rivalry if Austin had remained healthy.

So if Graf had 22 Slams partly due to Seles's absence, that does not mean that Navratilova had 18 Slams against her own best competition. Both women benefited from their chief younger competitor(s) dropping out of the game.

I don't think that Graf's 22 Slams automatically make her greater than Navratilova. But I think her edge in the Slams over Martina, if it's going to be boiled down to one thing, is due to Graf's greater proficiency over all surfaces. Martina won only two French Opens, while Graf won all the Slams at least four times, with 7 wins on Wimbledon grass (a surface on which she beat both Navratilova and Seles decisively) and 6 wins on slow Paris clay.

I don't think that Martina particularly suffered from being 30 in that match, due to her great conditioning. She defeated Graf the next month with as fine a performance at Wimbledon as she ever gave (IMO). Something was wrong with her in early 1987, but it was not age. As for Steffi, yes, she was young and essentially already in her prime, but not yet at her peak: she clearly got better in 1988. Also, that 1987 final was the first Slam final of her life, when she had still not gotten the better of Martina (having lost their only two Slam meetings); she was getting outplayed at times during the Paris final by a smart veteran with experience. But how well would Martina, even at her best, have done against Graf on red clay in 1988, 1992, or 1996?

Martina never did very well on Rebound Ace, where Graf excelled. As for grass and USO hard court, I think that these two women were, for all practical purposes, equal on those two surfaces. IMO the best example we have of a contest in which each woman was at her best, is the 1991 USO semi. That was extremely close: 7-6, 6-7, 6-4 for Martina. It was a very well played match, one of their best. Martina was indeed getting older then, but by the same token, Graf was playing one of her poorer seasons and did not look at mentally strong (to me) as she did, for example, in 1988 or 1995. She came to the net fewer times than in their 1989 USO final, and looked less confident in general.

The third set, which Martina won 6-4, was full of service breaks: five out of 10 games. It's the first two sets where they were really playing at their best, with two service breaks in the first set and two in the second. And they were even.

So it was not a perfect example of Graf's best against Navratilova's best, but I think it's the best we have.


I would say in all honesty that both Martina and Chris benefitted from the early retirement of Jaeger and most especially of Austin, but Graf clearly benefitted even more from the stabbing of Seles because Martina and Chris still had one another to contend with even after injuries drove Austin and Jaeger out of the game. I seriously doubt that Graf would have 4+ titles at each major if the stabbing of Seles had never occured. Seles was clearly dominating every major except for Wimbledon before she was stabbed and I really believe she would have kept it going for at least a few more years which would have left Graf with considerably less Slam titles than the 22 she owns today. A prime example for Seles' continued domination is their '93 AO final clash, which was the last time they played in a major final before the stabbing, and even though Graf played some of her finest tennis she still lost the match.

There is no denying that Graf is one of the all time great players to have played the game and I've never stated otherwise, but her inflated record is the main reason I don't put Graf 1st in any GOAT list. Yes there were some aspects of Graf's game that were better than either Evert's or Navratilova's (the forehand and footspeed come to mind first), but Navratilova and Evert had their own strengths as well, and also have better records overall than Graf does which is why I consider Martina and Chris to be the top two on the GOAT list.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 11:59 AM
Your not seriously going to put Graf winning a gold medal at the Olympics as being as important as winning a major?!?!? Not all the top players participate in the Olympics, which puts it on par with a Tier 2 event in women's tennis, not the same as a major. If you look on Wikipedia they list the draw for the '88 Olympics and it's clear that she was the ONLY truly premier player in her prime to play that year so her winning the event was a foregone conclusion. The only other truly premier player was Evert, who was by then clearly past her prime and lost early to Rafaella Reggi of Italy.

Way too much has always been made of Graf winning that gold medal.

Sabatini?

Even if we ignore the 88 gold medal:
Graf has one grand slam and Navratilova zero.

Add to that Graf leading Navratilova in
a) slams won
b) year end #1s
c) weeks as #1
d) prize money won
and you begin to realise why the vast majority of fans and experts world-wide call Graf the GOAT.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 12:04 PM
I would say in all honesty that both Martina and Chris benefitted from the early retirement of Jaeger and most especially of Austin, but Graf clearly benefitted even more from the stabbing of Seles because Martina and Chris still had one another to contend with even after injuries drove Austin and Jaeger out of the game. I seriously doubt that Graf would have 4+ titles at each major if the stabbing of Seles had never occured. Seles was clearly dominating every major except for Wimbledon before she was stabbed and I really believe she would have kept it going for at least a few more years ....


Dominating the majors for 2 or 3 years doesn't mean a lot.
Have a look at the women who had successful runs comparable to Seles's in 91-93:

Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


7 really great runs.
But in the next 2.25 years (time Seles was out due to stabbing) they won only 1.4 slams on average.

1.4 ....
Why do you think Seles would have been better?

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 12:31 PM
Dominating the majors for 2 or 3 years doesn't mean a lot.
Have a look at the women who had successful runs comparable to Seles's in 91-93:

Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


7 really great runs.
But in the next 2.25 years (time Seles was out due to stabbing) they won only 1.4 slams on average.

1.4 ....
Why do you think Seles would have been better?


First off Graf won way more than 1.4 Slams once Seles was out of the game and Seles was clearly never the same player again once she returned to the game. There was every indication that Seles was going to continue to dominate like she had the past 3 years and the only Slam she probably wouldn't have won would have been Wimbledon (although I think she would have had an excellent shot to win even that in 1994 considering who the two finalists were).

Connolly had a career ending injury from a horseback riding accident and never played again, so that doesn't figure into your criteria. There's every indication that Connolly would have continued to dominate if not for that horrible tragedy. Much the same as Seles would have continued to dominate if not for the knife in her back.

All the other players on your list had to face some serious world class competition throughout their careers and didn't have their primary rival purposely taken out of the game so they could regain the #1 ranking and win more majors. In the case of Serena, the reason she doesn't dominate any longer is not for lack of competition, it's because she is out of shape, constantly injured (lack of proper training will do that to one's body) and hasn't commited herself fully to tennis for a while now and her results reflect that.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 12:38 PM
Sabatini?

Even if we ignore the 88 gold medal:
Graf has one grand slam and Navratilova zero.

Add to that Graf leading Navratilova in
a) slams won
b) year end #1s
c) weeks as #1
d) prize money won
and you begin to realise why the vast majority of fans and experts world-wide call Graf the GOAT.

You consider Sabatini, the one Slam wonder, to be an all time great? I think not.


Connolly and Court also won the Grand Slam, but I don't see anyone putting their name forward as the GOAT.

Put Seles back in the game from the FO of '93 on and Graf wouldn't have half the few records she does own.

No serious tennis historian would use prize money as a criteria for greatness, as it's a completely inaccurate measure of how successful a player was, given the fact that players make way more money now then even Graf did when in her prime, and as Graf made more than both Evert and Navratilova when they were in their primes and as Evert made way more than Court and King when they were in their primes.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 12:43 PM
First off Graf won way more than 1.4 Slams once Seles was out of the game .... All the other players on your list had to face some serious world class competition throughout their careers and didn't have their primary rival purposely taken out of the game ....

It is about how many slams SELES would have won in the next 2.25 years, woman!

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 12:46 PM
It is about how many slams SELES would have won in the next 2.25 years, woman!



Correct that to man and you have it right. No woman here. ;)


Seles was clearly the better player at the AO, French and US Open than Graf was before the stabbing.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 12:49 PM
You consider Sabatini, the one Slam wonder, to be an all time great? ...

I never said that.


....Connolly and Court also won the Grand Slam, but I don't see anyone putting their name forward as the GOAT.

Put Seles back in the game from the FO of '93 on and Graf wouldn't have half the few records she does own. ....

There were seven (7) players post-WW2 who had successful runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-92. Only one of them (Navratilova, 5) managed to win more than two (2) slams in the next 2.25 years (the time Seles was out due to the stabbing).

What makes you think Seles would have won more than 2 slams?
Pure Graf hate ... ?

Borat72
08-05-2007, 12:52 PM
Correct that to man and you have it right. No woman here. ;)


Seles was clearly the better player at the AO, French and US Open than Graf was before the stabbing.


Sorry, I confused you with WTAWorld's "Chrisse-fan".

Seles was not clearly better at FO. She won 10-8 in the third set.
Seles was not clearly better at USO. She never beat a top 4 player pre-stabbing in Flushing Meadows. Graf beat Seles easily in their only match on a comparable surface pre-stabbing (San Antonio 1991).
Seles was not clearly better at AO. The 1993 final was a very good match that was decided in the last 5 minutes of the match.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 12:58 PM
Sorry, I confused you with WTAWorld's "Chrisse-fan".

Seles was not clearly better at FO. She won 10-8 in the third set.
Seles was not clearly better at USO. She never beat a top 4 player pre-stabbing in Flushing Meadows. Graf beat Seles easily in their only match on a comparable surface pre-stabbing (San Antonio 1991).
Seles was not clearly better at AO. The 1993 final was a very good match that was decided in the last 5 minutes of the match.


How is it Seles' fault that Graf (the #2 seed) couldn't even make it to most of those finals because she was struggling so much with her game at that time? The same scenario could be said for Graf and Navratilova, is it Graf's fault that Navratilova (the #2 seed) couldn't make it to most of the finals that Graf won in '88 and '89? The answer to both would be no. Actually winning the titles makes you better and if you so happen to beat your major rival while doing it then all the better.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 01:02 PM
I never said that.




There were seven (7) players post-WW2 who had successful runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-92. Only one of them (Navratilova, 5) managed to win more than two (2) slams in the next 2.25 years (the time Seles was out due to the stabbing).

What makes you think Seles would have won more than 2 slams?
Pure Graf hate ... ?

I don't hate Graf, unlike some other people on this forum. As a matter of fact I grew to admire Graf very much as the years went on and rooted like crazy for her to come back and win that FO final against Hingis, and was positively thrilled when she did.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 01:23 PM
How is it Seles' fault that Graf (the #2 seed) couldn't even make it to most of those finals because she was struggling so much with her game at that time? The same scenario could be said for Graf and Navratilova, is it Graf's fault that Navratilova (the #2 seed) couldn't make it to most of the finals that Graf won in '88 and '89? The answer to both would be no. Actually winning the titles makes you better and if you so happen to beat your major rival while doing it then all the better.

It was about whether Seles would have beaten Graf in FO 93, Wim 93, USO 93 and AO 94 without the stabbing. My answer is no.
I don't think Graf would have been able to make 66 UEs again in a FO final.
I don't think Seles was a decent grass court player.
I don't think Seles was able to beat Graf on fast hard-courts.
I don't think Seles would have been able to beat a clearly improved Graf at AO.

The facts are on my side.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 01:25 PM
I don't hate Graf, unlike some other people on this forum. As a matter of fact I grew to admire Graf very much as the years went on and rooted like crazy for her to come back and win that FO final against Hingis, and was positively thrilled when she did.


Then why do you INSIST that Seles would have fared far better than those othe 7 greats who had similar successful slam runs?
My only explanation is hate.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 01:49 PM
It was about whether Seles would have beaten Graf in FO 93, Wim 93, USO 93 and AO 94 without the stabbing. My answer is no.
I don't think Graf would have been able to make 66 UEs again in a FO final.
I don't think Seles was a decent grass court player.
I don't think Seles was able to beat Graf on fast hard-courts.
I don't think Seles would have been able to beat a clearly improved Graf at AO.

The facts are on my side.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then because I say Seles would have kept her dominance going as she clearly had the mental upper hand in their rivalry, especially after the '93 AO final.

I agree that Seles' grass court game wasn't the very best but I think she would have had an excellent shot to beat Martinez (who she owned) or a 37 year old past her prime Navratilova, who Seles had already beaten on grass in the '92 semis.

I think Seles would have been able to beat anyone on hard courts, whether slow or fast.

Graf might never have regained her form or "improved" as you say (which I disagree with) if she had continued to lose to Seles in major finals. A large part of any player's game is confidence and after the '93 AO Graf's confidence against Seles was in short supply.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 01:53 PM
Then why do you INSIST that Seles would have fared far better than those othe 7 greats who had similar successful slam runs?
My only explanation is hate.



Here's a rhetorical question for you. How many more majors would Evert have won if Navratilova had suddenly been removed from the picture in '83 a la Seles, and wasn't emotionally or mentally able to play for 2 1/2 years? Same scenario applies to Graf/Seles as they were the only two really great players in the early 90's, much like Evert/Navratilova were the only two truly great players in the mid 80's, and if one is suddenly removed then the other has a tremendous advantage.

Warriorroger
08-05-2007, 02:23 PM
Here's a rhetorical question for you. How many more majors would Evert have won if Navratilova had suddenly been removed from the picture in '83 a la Seles, and wasn't emotionally or mentally able to play for 2 1/2 years? Same scenario applies to Graf/Seles as they were the only two really great players in the early 90's, much like Evert/Navratilova were the only two truly great players in the mid 80's, and if one is suddenly removed then the other has a tremendous advantage.


Can you tell me why you keep on posting like this. Does it make your own player a better player? I am really interested. I am a Graf fan and I found what happened almost 15 years ago a horror for Seles and for tennis. But why do you keep on attacking (I know you're not the only one) Graf. Would you have wanted her to stop playing, would you be as harsh on Sabatini, Navratilova et all if they won the slams? What is it you guys want to hear. You know Graf showed to me what kind of players she is by winning the French Open in 1999, beating the top three with a body that has been worn out tennis wise. You use the word advantage, all women have had advantages when Monica was out of the game.

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 02:43 PM
Can you tell me why you keep on posting like this. Does it make your own player a better player? I am really interested. I am a Graf fan and I found what happened almost 15 years ago a horror for Seles and for tennis. But why do you keep on attacking (I know you're not the only one) Graf. Would you have wanted her to stop playing, would you be as harsh on Sabatini, Navratilova et all if they won the slams? What is it you guys want to hear. You know Graf showed to me what kind of players she is by winning the French Open in 1999, beating the top three with a body that has been worn out tennis wise. You use the word advantage, all women have had advantages when Monica was out of the game.


All the women on the tour at the time didn't have an honest shot at winning multiple majors like Graf and Seles did and Graf's chances were greatly improved by not having Seles in the field and you know this to be true. I don't hate Graf nor do I think that overall Seles is a better player then Graf the way things stand now, but she had the potential to be at least as great as Steffi until she was stabbed in the back and Gunther Parche got his wish because Graf regained the #1 ranking and went on to win many more majors than she probably should have and we all missed out on a potentially great rivalry. I just don't see why it is so hard for people who think Graf is the greatest player ever to acknowledge that she clearly benefitted by not having Seles there as her main rival. Yes Steffi should by all means have continued playing because it wasn't personally her fault that Seles was stabbed. However, Graf was a firm #2 and only winning Wimbledon until Seles was stabbed and removed from the picture.

Unlike some people that have only read about the incident, I had already been watching tennis avidly for years when Seles was stabbed and not only did I see how horrified Steffi was by the whole thing, but I also saw that she had a much easier time winning majors as well as a result.

Finally, I am well aware that this is all conjecture, because Seles did indeed not play for those 2 1/2 years and once she finally did return she wasn't the same, so both Seles' and Graf's records are what they are and no one can change them.

krosero
08-05-2007, 03:14 PM
I would say in all honesty that both Martina and Chris benefitted from the early retirement of Jaeger and most especially of Austin, but Graf clearly benefitted even more from the stabbing of Seles because Martina and Chris still had one another to contend with even after injuries drove Austin and Jaeger out of the game. Martina still had Chris and Hana, and Graf still had rivals like Arantxa Sanchez Vicario and Mary Pierce. After Tracy won her last Slam and Martina started her dominating run, Chris defeated Martina at three Slams (82 A, 85 F, 86 F). Graf lost the French and USO to Pierce and Sanchez Vicario, respectively, in 1994. And just like Martina won close matches against Chris, Steffi won some very close finals from Arantxa at Wimbledon and the French.

Simply put, Navratilova lost two rivals (Austin, Jaeger), and kept her old rivals (of which two, Chris and Hana, were Slam champions who cost Martina some Slam titles). Graf lost one rival (Seles), and kept her old rivals (of which two, Arantxa and Mary, were Slam champions who cost Steffi some Slams).

I seriously doubt that Graf would have 4+ titles at each major if the stabbing of Seles had never occured. Seles was clearly dominating every major except for Wimbledon before she was stabbed and I really believe she would have kept it going for at least a few more years which would have left Graf with considerably less Slam titles than the 22 she owns today.Had Seles not been stabbed, I think Graf would still have won her Wimbledon titles of 1993, 1995, and 1996. I see no sign that Seles worked on her grass-court game (the way that Lendl or Borg did, for example, by retooling their strokes and game plans) either before or after her comeback. And on grass, she had to hit skidding balls with two hands, while Graf had grass-court weapons: a big serve and excellent slice.

The 1992 FO final suggests to me that any of Steffi's four French Open victories after the stabbing can be questioned; but I would not say that all of them would have gone to Seles. Steffi lost decisively to Seles at RG in 1990, when Seles was still just maturing as a player; but when Graf brought her best tennis to the 1992 final, she took a fully mature Seles to 10-8 in the third. That suggests that they would have shared French Open titles in later years.

Graf was very close to Seles on red clay, IMO, because of her better conditioning; she was a better athlete than Seles (or anyone else). Seles was clearly tiring in the third set of the 1992 final.

Graf won just one Australian Open after the stabbing, so there's not much to discuss there. And I do think that Seles was better than her on Rebound Ace, so long as stamina did not come into play. The ball sat up for Seles at the height that she liked, but came at her with more of the pace that she liked than it did on red clay.

As for the U.S. Open, its surface is closest in speed to that of Wimbledon, where Graf had the advantage. So it makes some sense that Seles lost to Graf there after her comeback (though I don't think that those finals in 1995-96 can really tell us much about who was the better player). And someone else mentioned that Graf was already beating her on a similar surface, in San Antonio, even in 1991.

So I'm not sure how much we should doubt Graf's USO titles of 1993 and 1995-96. Maybe one would have gone to a fully healthy Seles, possibly two.

Finally, we have to realize that Seles left the game before we got to see any of her vulnerabilities. As of May 1993, she was still in the first youthful stage of her career, and feeling invulnerable -- just like Steffi Graf in 1988-89. But looked what happened to Steffi. Starting in 1990 she looked vulnerable, and as time went on, players started figuring out how to beat her. It happens to everybody, including Martina. The invulnerable, dominant years don't stretch on that long. Seles was on a torrid pace when she was stabbed, with three great years behind her. How many years did even Martina have without a great rival defeating her? About two or three. So how long could Seles keep up that pace? How long before she had a bad season and the others starting figuring out how to beat her?

You say that Seles would have gone on winning at the 1991-92 pace because she had the mental edge over Graf. Yes, she certainly had the edge, as Martina did over Chris. But Chris broke that spell (even if she never caught up to Martina). And what Chris had to do was harder, because Martina was a better athlete than Chris. And Chris was already approaching old age, for tennis, when she made her run at Martina. Graf was still young in 1993, and a better athlete than Seles. You can see her in the 1992 FO final, running around tirelessly and playing Seles without fear.

All in all, perhaps Graf loses 2 FO, 2 USO and 1 AO, if Seles had not been attacked. I have no idea how many titles Martina would have lost if Austin and Jaeger had remained healthy, but wouldn't the count be similar, in your opinion?

ATPballkid
08-05-2007, 03:52 PM
Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.

These are the major records in women's tennis that date back decades and decades to 1925 and earlier.

No stabbings of the top players by any of these 5 players or their fans.

Graf has a couple of records, but they are tied to much more recent developments in the 1970s -- things like most weeks ranked #1 since the WTA began in the early 1970s and most hardcourt Slams.

Pretty sad to not be the best at anything dating back to before the Open Era in tennis began in 1968 -- especially since Graf and her career will always have the stabbing incident.

That is one reason Steffi Graf should never be considered the best of all-time --- she would not have even been the best of any specific decade without the Seles stabbing --- but even moreso because her career will always be tarnished by the stabbing of the undiputed top player in women's tennis in 1993, Monica Seles.

ATPballkid
08-05-2007, 03:59 PM
It was about whether Seles would have beaten Graf in FO 93, Wim 93, USO 93 and AO 94 without the stabbing. My answer is no.
I don't think Graf would have been able to make 66 UEs again in a FO final.
I don't think Seles was a decent grass court player.
I don't think Seles was able to beat Graf on fast hard-courts.
I don't think Seles would have been able to beat a clearly improved Graf at AO.

The facts are on my side.

OH ... I thought Seles had beaten Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final and I thought Monica Seles had also won the 1992 U.S. Open AND the 1992 Tour Championships (these happen to be the only 3 major events in women's tennis that were played within the 8 months leading up to the stabbing of Seles).

Gunther must have FORGOTTEN about these results.

For the record --- that was the THIRD CONSECUTIVE Australian Open Seles had won (1991-1992-1993) ...

it was the THIRD CONSECUTIVE WTA Tour Championship Seles had won (1990-1991-1992) ...

and, it was the SECOND CONSECUTIVE U.S. Open Championship Seles had won (1991-1992) ...

to go with a THIRD CONSECUTIVE French Open Championship for Seles (1990-1991-1992).

But it appears Gunther Parche would rather forget about all of this.

krosero
08-05-2007, 04:00 PM
Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.I don't know why you would reduce all of tennis history to stabbings, except unless the event just stands out in your mind because of its morbidity, and its immediate impact compared to other things that can remove rivals, like injuries, accidents, and sabbaticals. Tell me, can anything happen to remove a champion's rivals, temporarily or permanently, other than a stabbing? Did anything happen to Martina's younger rivals, apart from a stabbing? Or would you like to reduce all these questions to a question of stabbing?

krosero
08-05-2007, 04:04 PM
Court has the all-time record for most Slams - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most years ranked #1 -- no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most singles titles - no stabbings.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. titles - no stabbings.
Evert has the all-time record for most French Opens - no stabbings.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles - no stabbings.
Wills Moody has the record for most from the Big Two - no stabbings.
Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons - no stabbings.Oh, and apart from the question of what can remove a champion's rivals, let me ask you another question. Can anything other than stabbing affect a player like Seles? I mean, do players come down off their top years of dominance, and start experiencing losses, for any reasons other than getting stabbed?

CEvertFan
08-05-2007, 04:31 PM
Oh, and apart from the question of what can remove a champion's rivals, let me ask you another question. Can anything other than stabbing affect a player like Seles? I mean, do players come down off their top years of dominance, and start experiencing losses, for any reasons other than getting stabbed?


I believe what he's trying to say is that Seles' stabbing was a calculated attempt to take her out of the game and it succeeded for 2 1/2 years. Injuries, like those of Austin and Jaeger as well as many other players, is something that every tennis player has to, at one time or another go through, and it's a completely different scenario than what happened to Seles. Who knows, Seles herself might have even started to face serious injuries by '94 or '95 even w/o the stabbing having happened, because once she came back she was very injury prone. Incidentally, an overweight, out of shape Seles who had lost her edge wound up never really being a consistent major threat again once she returned to the game unlike the much fitter (mentally and physically) pre-stabbing Seles.

Whether Seles' many injuries upon her return were the result of her long layoff and being in terrible shape, or was it because she was just naturally prone to injuries is something I leave for everyone to judge for themselves.

krosero
08-05-2007, 05:01 PM
I believe what he's trying to say is that Seles' stabbing was a calculated attempt to take her out of the game and it succeeded for 2 1/2 years.

Injuries, like those of Austin and Jaeger as well as many other players, is something that every tennis player has to, at one time or another go through, and it's a completely different scenario than what happened to Seles. Certainly, it's different. It has nothing in common with ordinary scenarios. The question is, how do the results of this extraordinary event, in the Seles era, compare with the results of ordinary events like injury, in the Navratilova era? Merely because a stabbing is an extraordinary means for a player to fall out of the game does not mean that the results were extraordinary. It does have some effects on the results: it meant that Seles dropped out immediately and left a certain trauma in the game. But though injuries took Austin out of the game gradually, she never played a role in the final weekend of a major after her victory at the 1981 USO Open. At the top, all you have to do is struggle a little with injury, and the result can be just as severe as Seles' withdrawal. Austin lingered in the game, but her time at the top was essentially over just as quickly after the 1981 USO as Seles' time at the top was over after the 1993 AO.

Technically, anything can remove a player from the very top level of the game just as quickly as a stabbing: any moderate but significant injury can do it; so can a sabbatical, or maternity leave, or retirement.

Focusing on the means of withdrawal obscures a discussion of all this. The post I was responding to wanted aggressively to make all these questions about the means -- about the stabbing.

If some case is going to be made that Graf lost more of her competition with Seles than Navratilova did with Austin and Jaeger, then the case should be made; but repeating the dramatic word "stabbing" as if doing so takes care of the case is a substitute for an argument, not an argument.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 09:41 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree then because I say Seles would have kept her dominance going as she clearly had the mental upper hand in their rivalry, especially after the '93 AO final.

I agree that Seles' grass court game wasn't the very best but I think she would have had an excellent shot to beat Martinez (who she owned) or a 37 year old past her prime Navratilova, who Seles had already beaten on grass in the '92 semis.

I think Seles would have been able to beat anyone on hard courts, whether slow or fast.

Graf might never have regained her form or "improved" as you say (which I disagree with) if she had continued to lose to Seles in major finals. A large part of any player's game is confidence and after the '93 AO Graf's confidence against Seles was in short supply.

Why this???
Graf had won the match before that with 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon, had lost the FO only with 8-10 in the third set AND had won both matches in 1991!!
She had won 3 of the last 5 matches, 8 of the last 13 sets they played!!!
You seem to be extremey biased.
Sorry, for me that is the obvious Graf-hate that sadly is so commonplace in some tennis forums.

Borat72
08-05-2007, 09:50 PM
Here's a rhetorical question for you. How many more majors would Evert have won if Navratilova had suddenly been removed from the picture in '83 a la Seles, and wasn't emotionally or mentally able to play for 2 1/2 years? Same scenario applies to Graf/Seles as they were the only two really great players in the early 90's, much like Evert/Navratilova were the only two truly great players in the mid 80's, and if one is suddenly removed then the other has a tremendous advantage.

Navratilova beat Evert in 5 slam finals in the next 2.25 years.
So Evert most probably would have had 3 or 4 slams more.

But here is my question to you:
Navratilova had her most successful run after 1983. How do you know that Seles would have had the same run after 1993???

You base that only on her success in 1991-93. But I have shown that having success for 2 or 3 years doesn't mean a lot for the next 2.25 years.
There were SEVEN players with comparable runs post-WW2. Only ONE of them won more than 3 slams in the next 2.25 years.

To any neutral observer that is a quite convincing argument.
The problem is, you are not neutral. You hate Graf because she relegated Evert to #3 or #4 in the GOAT race.

llama
08-06-2007, 05:28 AM
Why does everyone fall for these threads by ATPBallKid and FedSampras? - they're as bad as Condi in reverse and both of them should be banned.

Why respond to trolls?

the green god
08-06-2007, 09:25 AM
they have both been out of the game for 10-15 years and this is still keeping you up nights. man you must have hated steffi for taking her place as the top player in the game.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 10:51 AM
Why this???
Graf had won the match before that with 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon, had lost the FO only with 8-10 in the third set AND had won both matches in 1991!!
She had won 3 of the last 5 matches, 8 of the last 13 sets they played!!!
You seem to be extremey biased.
Sorry, for me that is the obvious Graf-hate that sadly is so commonplace in some tennis forums.



You seem to forget that the last time they played before the stabbing that it was a pretty convincing win for Seles even though Graf was playing at her peak and the score was 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, not 10-8 in the 3rd which just means that Seles was truly starting to dominate Graf. I don't think that Seles had even reached her peak yet in '91 or '92 as she was still young and growing. As for Seles' loss to Graf in the Wimbledon final, I have stated before that I don't think that Seles would have been able to beat Graf on grass, but she had an excellent chance on any other surface.

I don't hate Graf or overestimate Evert's place in history. If you choose to believe that I feel that way then so be it, but I have presented legitimate arguments. If you feel that without Navratilova's presence that Evert would have won at least 4 more Slam titles (which would have given Evert 22 majors, a telling number don't you think?) then why can't you feel that Steffi benefitted as much by Seles' absence over the nest 2.25 years??? Maybe you have an unreasonable Steffi bias.

Borat72
08-06-2007, 11:34 AM
You seem to forget that the last time they played before the stabbing that it was a pretty convincing win for Seles even though Graf was playing at her peak and the score was 4-6, 6-3, 6-2, not 10-8 in the 3rd which just means that Seles was truly starting to dominate Graf. ...

One match on Seles's best surface and most probably Graf's worst one?
A match where Graf had break-point at 2-4 in the last set which Seles fended off with an ace to go on to win the next 6 points? Graf making 78 points and Seles 86? Graf hitting more winners even in the last set (but making 15 UEs)?

Graf had won 3 of the 4 matches before that AO 93 match and you say this Seles win indicated Seles was set to dominate Graf???

You are a true Graf hater. Most probably has something to do with her being German (world-war 2 etc.).
Sad.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 12:05 PM
One match on Seles's best surface and most probably Graf's worst one?
A match where Graf had break-point at 2-4 in the last set which Seles fended off with an ace to go on to win the next 6 points? Graf making 78 points and Seles 86? Graf hitting more winners even in the last set (but making 15 UEs)?

Graf had won 3 of the 4 matches before that AO 93 match and you say this Seles win indicated Seles was set to dominate Graf???

You are a true Graf hater. Most probably has something to do with her being German (world-war 2 etc.).
Sad.

Discussion with you is like discussion with Condoleeza. That person is currently banned from the forums but you could ask around to find out who that was. You won't be flattered.

I am done with pointless arguing about this matter if one isn't going to be even half way reasonable.

Moose Malloy
08-06-2007, 12:08 PM
any bets on how long before borat gets banned? he/she/it isn't even trying to pretend to be someone else anymore(lol at the americans vs germans thing, that didn't take long to come out)

graf has some very scary fans, wonder if there's a restraining order on this guy.

Borat72
08-06-2007, 12:21 PM
any bets on how long before borat gets banned? he/she/it isn't even trying to pretend to be someone else anymore(lol at the americans vs germans thing, that didn't take long to come out)

graf has some very scary fans, wonder if there's a restraining order on this guy.


This "Americans vs. German thing" was (and is) a common topic in German sports media. It is well-known which difficulties Graf had in the beginning to get recognition in the U.S. and by the (then) US-dominated WTA. Navratilova and Evert were the darlings and this German girl DARES to topple them!

They had a report in German TV recently where they made fun of a "top 100 greatest sports persons" article by an American sports magazine (Sports Illustrated?). 79 of the top 100 were American .... :D :D :D

krosero
08-06-2007, 02:55 PM
If you feel that without Navratilova's presence that Evert would have won at least 4 more Slam titles (which would have given Evert 22 majors, a telling number don't you think?) then why can't you feel that Steffi benefitted as much by Seles' absence over the nest 2.25 years???I think I understand this analogy, but I have a couple of problems with it.

One problem is that the stabbing of Navratilova is purely hypothetical. Adding it to the discussion seems to be a way to get the Navratilova era to match up with the Seles era, so that we can compare Chris Evert against Steffi Graf as if all things were equal (to use the common saying).

Well, this thread began as a comparison of Navratilova against Graf, which is why I thought it would be better to compare Navratilova’s rivals (Austin, Jaeger) against Graf’s rival (Seles).

I also prefer that way of doing things because it sticks to what actually happened. That is already complex enough without adding hypotheticals, IMO.

If I understand correctly, it seems useful to hypothesize that Navratilova was stabbed because the stabbing of Seles just seems like a unique event that changed that era in a way that no era had ever been changed. Well, no one can deny that the stabbing was unique in tennis history, and that it had unique effects on the sport. But every era has a mix of ordinary and extraordinary events that remove or hobble champions. All those events, not just one, have to be accounted for. If Graf’s 22 Slam titles are going to be reduced, the next step is to ask if the same can be done for whomever she’s being compared against.

Bringing Graf’s 22 titles down to 18 or lower, and leaving Martina at 18, is what I don’t find valid. It seems to me, rather, that in the Open Era we’ve had a lot of girls and young women fail to make it through the pitfalls of stardom and have a safe, healthy, long career. Chris Evert and Steffi Graf stand out as two women who did manage it. But we have a lot of casualties along the way, including Austin, Jaeger, Jennifer Capriati – and the most conspicuous example, the most brutal instance of one of the dangers of fame, Seles.

Austin and Jaeger represent a significant loss of talent that can't be left out of any comparison of Graf's career with Navratilova's. If we’re actually trying to make all things equal, that loss has to be taken into account, because it had such a weighty impact in its time. The Navratilova-Evert rivalry of the mid-80s, when these two women basically had the field to themselves even a full decade after first coming onto the scene themselves, was pretty unique, and it could not have happened if their successors had had full, healthy careers.

I think if Austin stands in roughly for Seles, then Jaeger can stand in for Capriati. Navratilova lost Austin and Jaeger as rivals, while Graf lost Seles and Capriati. It's a rough comparison and there will be differences -- but let the differences be discussed. That's the whole point -- to discuss these things and not just the stabbing.

What I’m saying is that the stabbing, while the most “unique” and certainly the most brutal loss of talent, is not the only thing that can or should be discussed when comparing the Navratilova and Seles eras.

If Graf’s Slam total is going to be cut down and compared to the total of a player who began playing a decade earlier – and this is an exercise I’m not in favor of, but let’s allow it for the sake of argument – then the other player’s total has to be examined as well. Leaving Martina at 18 titles while bringing Graf down to 18 or lower makes little sense.

I understand the sense that Graf has an "inflated" collection of titles. But virtually everyone does, because everyone has had some luck. How would certain Slam champions have fared if, say, Borg had stuck around? What if Austin, Jaeger, and Capriati had had healthy careers? What if Court hadn’t taken any time off to have babies? What if Court had faced greater competition in her run to 11 Australian Championships? What if pro players had been able to compete for Slams before 1968? What if the bans and boycotts of the early 70s had not occurred? All of these events represent some kind of loss or diminishment of talent at Slam events. So does the stabbing. It should be discussed – but not apart from all those other events.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 03:27 PM
I think I understand this analogy, but I have a couple of problems with it.

One problem is that the stabbing of Navratilova is purely hypothetical. Adding it to the discussion seems to be a way to get the Navratilova era to match up with the Seles era, so that we can compare Chris Evert against Steffi Graf as if all things were equal (to use the common saying).

Well, this thread began as a comparison of Navratilova against Graf, which is why I thought it would be better to compare Navratilova’s rivals (Austin, Jaeger) against Graf’s rival (Seles).

I also prefer that way of doing things because it sticks to what actually happened. That is already complex enough without adding hypotheticals, IMO.

If I understand correctly, it seems useful to hypothesize that Navratilova was stabbed because the stabbing of Seles just seems like a unique event that changed that era in a way that no era had ever been changed. Well, no one can deny that the stabbing was unique in tennis history, and that it had unique effects on the sport. But every era has a mix of ordinary and extraordinary events that remove or hobble champions. All those events, not just one, have to be accounted for. If Graf’s 22 Slam titles are going to be reduced, the next step is to ask if the same can be done for whomever she’s being compared against.

Bringing Graf’s 22 titles down to 18 or lower, and leaving Martina at 18, is what I don’t find valid. It seems to me, rather, that in the Open Era we’ve had a lot of girls and young women fail to make it through the pitfalls of stardom and have a safe, healthy, long career. Chris Evert and Steffi Graf stand out as two women who did manage it. But we have a lot of casualties along the way, including Austin, Jaeger, Jennifer Capriati – and the most conspicuous example, the most brutal instance of one of the dangers of fame, Seles.

Austin and Jaeger represent a significant loss of talent that can't be left out of any comparison of Graf's career with Navratilova's. If we’re actually trying to make all things equal, that loss has to be taken into account, because it had such a weighty impact in its time. The Navratilova-Evert rivalry of the mid-80s, when these two women basically had the field to themselves even a full decade after first coming onto the scene themselves, was pretty unique, and it could not have happened if their successors had had full, healthy careers.

I think if Austin stands in roughly for Seles, then Jaeger can stand in for Capriati. Navratilova lost Austin and Jaeger as rivals, while Graf lost Seles and Capriati. It's a rough comparison and there will be differences -- but let the differences be discussed. That's the whole point -- to discuss these things and not just the stabbing.

What I’m saying is that the stabbing, while the most “unique” and certainly the most brutal loss of talent, is not the only thing that can or should be discussed when comparing the Navratilova and Seles eras.

If Graf’s Slam total is going to be cut down and compared to the total of a player who began playing a decade earlier – and this is an exercise I’m not in favor of, but let’s allow it for the sake of argument – then the other player’s total has to be examined as well. Leaving Martina at 18 titles while bringing Graf down to 18 or lower makes little sense.

I understand the sense that Graf has an "inflated" collection of titles. But virtually everyone does, because everyone has had some luck. How would certain Slam champions have fared if, say, Borg had stuck around? What if Austin, Jaeger, and Capriati had had healthy careers? What if Court hadn’t taken any time off to have babies? What if Court had faced greater competition in her run to 11 Australian Championships? What if pro players had been able to compete for Slams before 1968? What if the bans and boycotts of the early 70s had not occurred? All of these events represent some kind of loss or diminishment of talent at Slam events. So does the stabbing. It should be discussed – but not apart from all those other events.

You make very excellent and valid points but the difference between the dominance of Navratilova and Evert in the 80s and Graf's resumed dominance once Seles was stabbed aren't the same thing because of the unusual and unprecedented way that Seles was suddenly COMPLETELY removed from the scene. Austin and Jaeger and Capriati all succumbed to natural injuries and/or burnout which is something that could happen to any player whereas in your words "the stabbing of Seles just seems like a unique event that changed that era in a way that no era had ever been changed" and that makes them different IMO.

FedSampras
08-06-2007, 03:37 PM
Why does everyone fall for these threads by ATPBallKid and FedSampras? - they're as bad as Condi in reverse and both of them should be banned.

Why respond to trolls?

Borat Warrior is that you....?

krosero
08-06-2007, 04:18 PM
You make very excellent and valid points but the difference between the dominance of Navratilova and Evert in the 80s and Graf's resumed dominance once Seles was stabbed aren't the same thing because of the unusual and unprecedented way that Seles was suddenly COMPLETELY removed from the scene. Austin and Jaeger and Capriati all succumbed to natural injuries and/or burnout which is something that could happen to any player whereas in your words "the stabbing of Seles just seems like a unique event that changed that era in a way that no era had ever been changed" and that makes them different IMO.I agree with you that the stabbing was different. But when I say "different", I mean simply that it was a unique event; and all events are unique, in a sense. I do not mean that the loss of Seles and Capriati represented a greater loss of talent than that of Austin and Jaeger. That's a question that I think has to be answered apart from the uniqueness of the event that removed the talent. What we're talking about in the end is the absence of talent; and that occurs through various ways, all of them different from each other.

Now, yes, I agreed that what happened to Seles removed her from the scene immediately, rather than the injuries that slowly hobbled Austin and Jaeger. But I also said that what we're talking about is Slam totals. We're talking about loss or diminishment of talent at the very top of the game -- the final weekends of the Slams. Austin never played in a final after the 1981 US Open. As far as I know, she never had a realistic chance of defeating Navratilova in a Slam event after 1981. Their USO final was their last Slam meeting. They played only twice in 1982 and twice in 1983, and that was it.

So I'm not sure that what happened to Seles removed more talent from the final weekends of Slams, and more immediately, than the events during Navratilova's dominance.

krosero
08-06-2007, 04:22 PM
You make very excellent and valid points but the difference between the dominance of Navratilova and Evert in the 80s and Graf's resumed dominance once Seles was stabbed aren't the same thing because of the unusual and unprecedented way that Seles was suddenly COMPLETELY removed from the scene. Austin and Jaeger and Capriati all succumbed to natural injuries and/or burnout which is something that could happen to any player whereas in your words "the stabbing of Seles just seems like a unique event that changed that era in a way that no era had ever been changed" and that makes them different IMO.Just quickly I wanted to note that, yes, these were my words, but I was describing how the Seles stabbing "seems" to us -- what it looks like at first glance. And while the words I used to describe the first, basic impression that it makes on our minds are technically correct -- it was a unique event -- these are not the last words I would use to describe the stabbing. At least, not when the subject is loss of talent at the top. I'd want to add to our first impression ... well, everything I already said.

ATPballkid
08-06-2007, 05:26 PM
.....................

ATPballkid
08-06-2007, 05:32 PM
Now, yes, I agreed that what happened to Seles removed her from the scene immediately, rather than the injuries that slowly hobbled Austin and Jaeger. But I also said that what we're talking about is Slam totals. We're talking about loss or diminishment of talent at the very top of the game -- the final weekends of the Slams. Austin never played in a final after the 1981 US Open.

I believe I would rather go out with my own injuries rather than have a Graf fan stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife. I believe Austin and Jaeger would prefer to leave tennis with their own injuries than with a Graf fan's knife plunged deep into their back out of jealousy.

Of course they both pale in comparison to what Seles did against Graf --- winning 10 out of 12 of the biggest events in women's tennis in the 2.5 year period between late 1990 and the April 1993 knife stabbing. Is it true that Graf was limited to just 3 of the major singles titles (no more than just 1 per year) in 1990-1991-1992 while Seles was the only player in women's tennis in those years to win 2 or more of the biggest singles titles in those years (2 in 1990 for Seles ... then, 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in both 1991 and 1992) before Seles kept up the pace by starting 1993 with a win over Steffi Graf in the 1993 Australian Open final before she was stabbed in the back with a sharp knife by a Steffi Graf fan? Wow, Monica Seles was the best teenage phenom the sport had ever seen up until a Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a sharp knife.

ATPballkid
08-06-2007, 05:38 PM
I
Austin and Jaeger represent a significant loss of talent that can't be left out of any comparison of Graf's career with Navratilova's.

Do you think for a minute that Tracy Austin won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis during a 30 month period as Monica Seles did in the middle of Graf's career?

In 1990 was the only player to win 2 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis.

In 1991 Seles won 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis and did not play in the 5th one.

In 1992 Seles won 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis and she was runnerup in the 5th one.

I don't think the same can be said for Tracy Austin.

I also don't think a Navratilova fan stabbed Tracy Austin in the back with a knife

ATPballkid
08-06-2007, 05:52 PM
I think if Austin stands in roughly for Seles, It's a rough comparison and there will be differences -- but let the differences be discussed. That's the whole point -- to discuss these things and not just the stabbing.



I

If only Tracey had been able to continue playing, who knows how good she could have become ...

We do know this ... she was not winning multiple major titles in a year. She won a U.S. Open in 1979 .. a WTA Tour Championship in 1980 .. and a U.S. Open in 1981.

Seles, on the other hand, won 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1990 ... 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1991 ... 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1992 ... and Seles beat Graf to win the ONLY Grand Slam event played in 1993 before a Graf fan stabbed Seles in Germany at the end of April in 1993.

Big difference ...

ATPballkid
08-06-2007, 06:09 PM
Two names not yet mentioned in this thread: Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger.

Obviously, Graf benefited from the fact that Seles was stabbed. But I think it's just as obvious that Martina and Chris dominated the field so thoroughly in the mid 1980s because their younger rivals, the two women who were touted as their successors, were essentially taken out of the game by injuries. Seles, of course, was taken out by a brutal act, and was taken out more immediately, more dramatically. With Tracy and Andrea it was a slow slide out of the game.

A player's health limitations WHICH ARE NOT BROUGHT ON BY OTHER PEOPLE are a natural part of the sport ... just as in the case with injuries to Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger.

alwaysatnet
08-06-2007, 07:02 PM
This "Americans vs. German thing" was (and is) a common topic in German sports media. It is well-known which difficulties Graf had in the beginning to get recognition in the U.S. and by the (then) US-dominated WTA. Navratilova and Evert were the darlings and this German girl DARES to topple them!

They had a report in German TV recently where they made fun of a "top 100 greatest sports persons" article by an American sports magazine (Sports Illustrated?). 79 of the top 100 were American .... :D :D :DIt's hardly surprising that an American magazine would pick Americans as most of the top athletes in a Top 100 poll.The poll is especially understandable when you consider that most of the top athletes in this country play in sports that aren't hugely popular elsewhere(football,baseball).
You aren't going to sell many copies of SI extolling the virtues of a cricket star from Pakistan or Sumo wrestler from Tokyo,are you?
I'm sure a French or Greek poll would have plenty of athletes known primarily in those nations but hardly anywhere else. So what?

I'm also sure there is no reason why Graf should have gotten much attention before she became a top player. Why should she? Because she's German? Who cares(outside of Germany)? And your use of the emotionally loaded phrase, "she DARED to topple them" is really juvenille and overdoing it.
As if there were some conspiracy to hold poor little Steffi down!

If you are looking for reasons why Steffi Graf didn't get the recognition you feel she was cheated out of perhaps you should look at your precious Steffi herself. She treated press conferences like they were being conducted in leper colonies. She was about as outgoing as Howard Hughes. She was notoriously reclusive and didn't spend an extra second promoting her sport that she wasn't forced to. It didn't make her very popular with her fellow pros either.
So stop your tuetonic whine fest. Steffi got far more out of tennis then she ever put into it. At least off the court.

krosero
08-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Do you think for a minute that Tracy Austin won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis during a 30 month period as Monica Seles did in the middle of Graf's career? Wow. Of course I don’t think that for a minute. Who would?

Listen, my argument was not that Tracy Austin accomplished everything that Monica Seles did. That’s a strawman you’ve erected. Quite obviously, Tracy was hobbled by injuries very early in her career, before she could accomplish very much.

But look at her talent. Tracy Austin was dominating Chris Evert, the world’s #1 player through early 1979, in a serious way. She ended Evert’s domination on clay and at the U.S. Open. She had a 5-match winning streak against Evert, ending at the 1980 U.S. Open (while Seles' longest streak against Graf is exactly 2 matches). She defeated Navratilova as well as Evert at the 1979 U.S. Open, and won her next Slam meeting with Navratilova, at the 1981 U.S. Open.

Tracy was able to beat the alltime best player on clay. Seles was not able to beat Graf on Graf’s best surface (grass). Tracy also defeated Martina twice on the fast surface at Flushing Meadow. She clearly had the talent to defeat the world’s top two players on surfaces that suited them. But she had precious little time free of injuries – and pointing to her small Slam haul just obscures what a phenomenal talent she was. Every bit worthy of a comparison with Seles. Monica was the youngest ever to win the French, and Tracy did the same at the U.S. Open.

Austin did lose to Navratilova at Wimbledon in 1978. She was only 15 then, of course, but I'm bringing it up because I'm not sure that she really could have taken away any of Martina's Wimbledon titles, even if she'd been healthy -- anymore than I think that Seles could have taken Graf's Wimbledon titles. It's yet another way in which I think that Austin is an appropriate analogy with Seles.

Here's another one: People like to say that Tracy had Chris Evert’s number – which is what people say about Seles and Graf. But Chris found a way to beat Tracy again, which is one reason that I find some of these discussions about Seles and Graf to be bizarre. Tennis fans should know that great champions can never be counted out, but often you will have people say that Seles’ performance in the Slams – three out of four in 1991 and 1992 – would have continued unabated without the stabbing. Well, I certainly would expect her to have stayed #1 for at least a little while longer, and possibly a very long time, but I would not present the figures from 1991 and 1992 as if nothing but Seles’ withdrawal from the game could have changed them. Had Chris Evert retired in mid-1980, your approach would necessarily imply that Tracy Austin would never have lost to her again, which is of course false. If Chris, again, had retired in 1983, your approach would state that Martina had her number and that Chris would never have beaten her again. Or what about Connors’ great comeback in 1982? That proves you can’t count out even those who are “old,” like Jimmy and Chris – much less can you do it with a young player like Graf in 1993, especially if she was still competitive with the player above her and was not mired in a long losing streak against her (unlike Chris against Tracy or Martina).

I find your approach, in short, not just simplistic, but strangely disrespectful of the intangibility and unknowable quality that makes tennis encounters (and rivalries) so fascinating.

I believe I would rather go out with my own injuries rather than have a Graf fan stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife. I believe Austin and Jaeger would prefer to leave tennis with their own injuries than with a Graf fan's knife plunged deep into their back out of jealousy.Again, wow. Of course I would prefer injuries to a stabbing. Who wouldn’t? Is this the topic of the thread? The thread was supposed to compare Navratilova against Graf; and you brought in the loss of a rival, Seles. There was nothing in what I wrote to suggest that Austin and Jaeger had a harder time than Seles. The debate until now has been about the loss of rivals, the loss of talent, not about who suffered more.

That you would change the subject to the horrible quality of a stabbing is so strange to me, because no one would dispute that. But it does suggest to me that I was onto something when I wrote above that the stabbing, because of its dramatic and awful quality, seems to dominate our imagination and shut out everything else; its horrible quality is what people want to focus on. I have no problem with rational arguments to the effect that the stabbing of Monica Seles removed a greater talent than any given event during Navratilova’s career – but shifting the debate to a question of which misfortune is the worst way to go is not that argument.

A player's health limitations WHICH ARE NOT BROUGHT ON BY OTHER PEOPLE are a natural part of the sport ... just as in the case with injuries to Tracy Austin and Andrea Jaeger.Again, all we have to look at is the talent that was removed; how it was removed is only relevant to the extent that it bears on the first question. You want to make it about what’s “natural” and unnatural, which again seems to be about the morbidity of the stabbing exerting a pull on the imagination. It was a criminal act, but that does not mean that it removed more talent than any other given event. It was, as you say, an intentional act. But Borg’s retirement was also intentional. So was Margaret Court’s decision to take sabbaticals to have children. So are boycotts of tournaments. Bans handed down by administrative bodies are also intentional, and quite unnatural; they “should” not happen, anymore than Borg’s retirement looks “natural” from the tennis fan’s point of view. None of these issues that you’re bringing up focus on the question of how much talent was removed from the pool.

I do get what you’re saying about Seles having proved her talent to an extent that Tracy Austin, lamentably, did not get a chance to do. If that’s all your argument is, then the point is well taken. But it implies that Austin, had she remained healthy, did not have the talent or drive to win a comparable number of Slams as Seles did. If you want to go there, go right ahead, but I would not make that argument. The little data we have points to sky-high potential for Austin, while there's very little data to suggest that she was short on talent or drive (when healthy).

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 08:03 PM
Here's another one: People like to say that Tracy had Chris Evert’s number – which is what people say about Seles and Graf. But Chris found a way to beat Tracy again, which is one reason that I find some of these discussions about Seles and Graf to be bizarre. Tennis fans should know that great champions can never be counted out, but often you will have people say that Seles’ performance in the Slams – three out of four in 1991 and 1992 – would have continued unabated without the stabbing. Well, I certainly would expect her to have stayed #1 for at least a little while longer, and possibly a very long time, but I would not present the figures from 1991 and 1992 as if nothing but Seles’ withdrawal from the game could have changed them. Had Chris Evert retired in mid-1980, your approach would necessarily imply that Tracy Austin would never have lost to her again, which is of course false. If Chris, again, had retired in 1983, your approach would state that Martina had her number and that Chris would never have beaten her again. Or what about Connors’ great comeback in 1982? That proves you can’t count out even those who are “old,” like Jimmy and Chris – much less can you do it with a young player like Graf in 1993, especially if she was still competitive with the player above her and was not mired in a long losing streak against her (unlike Chris against Tracy or Martina).

I just wanted to clarify that when I say that Seles would have continued the domination I didn't mean she would win 3 slams a year for the next three or four years. I did mean that I thought she could have held on to the #1 ranking for a while (and from what you've said you agree with me), I also meant Seles would still be winning majors maybe at the French or the Aussie Open and possibly the US Open as well but probably not all three in each year and most probably not at Wimbledon (except for maybe 1994 as neither finalist was Graf). Now taking into account Slam titles won and weeks at #1, which are most people's primary criteria for putting someone as the GOAT and Graf's records are clearly tainted in that regard because she obviously had it much easier for the most part after Seles was out of the game and if Seles hadn't ever been stabbed, Graf would not only have less Slam titles, she would also have less weeks at #1 and combined with the fact that Graf was relegated to #2 in the prime of her career when she wasn't even 25 yet after only a bit over 3 years at #1, I have to, in all good conscience, rank her lower than #1 on the GOAT list. I would just like to state for the record again that I am most definitely NOT a Graf hater, and I sincerely believe she is a phenomenal player and one of the all time greatest as well.

My greatest regrets about the whole Seles thing besides feeling really bad for Seles for having something like that happen to her are:


1. I am very sad we never got to see the Graf/Seles rivalry really blossom and flourish ala Evert/Navratilova.

2. It would have been most interesting to see if Graf could come back and start winning other Slams again besides Wimbledon as well as take back the #1 ranking.


Finally, I have to agree with you regarding Austin. She belongs right up there with the very best even though her career was so short and she only won two majors, because she had loads of talent. I have the Austin/Evert US Open final of '79 on DVD, and Austin just totally outplayed Evert throughout the entire match and basically beat Chris at her own game. She was a formidable talent and it is unfortunate that she had so many injuries.

krosero
08-06-2007, 09:58 PM
I just wanted to clarify that when I say that Seles would have continued the domination I didn't mean she would win 3 slams a year for the next three or four years. I did mean that I thought she could have held on to the #1 ranking for a while (and from what you've said you agree with me), I also meant Seles would still be winning majors maybe at the French or the Aussie Open and possibly the US Open as well but probably not all three in each year and most probably not at Wimbledon (except for maybe 1994 as neither finalist was Graf). Now taking into account Slam titles won and weeks at #1, which are most people's primary criteria for putting someone as the GOAT and Graf's records are clearly tainted in that regard because she obviously had it much easier for the most part after Seles was out of the game and if Seles hadn't ever been stabbed, Graf would not only have less Slam titles, she would also have less weeks at #1 and combined with the fact that Graf was relegated to #2 in the prime of her career when she wasn't even 25 yet after only a bit over 3 years at #1, I can't in all good conscience to rank her lower than #1 on the GOAT list. I would just like to state for the record again that I am most definitely NOT a Graf hater, and I sincerely believe she is a phenomenal player and one of the all time greatest as well.

My greatest regrets about the whole Seles thing besides feeling really bad for Seles for having something like that happen to her are:


1. I am very sad we never got to see the Graf/Seles rivalry really blossom and flourish ala Evert/Navratilova.

2. It would have been most interesting to see if Graf could come back and start winning other Slams again besides Wimbledon as well as take back the #1 ranking.


Finally, I have to agree with you regarding Austin. She belongs right up there with the very best even though her career was so short and she only won two majors, because she had loads of talent. I have the Austin/Evert US Open final of '79 on DVD, and Austin just totally outplayed Evert throughout the entire match and basically beat Chris at her own game. She was a formidable talent and it is unfortunate that she had so many injuries.I think we're largely on the same page, especially in regard to Graf's time at #1 on the computer. That's a stat which I have never placed much value on, because while Seles and Graf were sharing Slam titles, they were not sharing the #1 ranking: Seles occupied that spot alone, of course.

One thing I'd like to say about the word you used, "tainted," to describe Graf's records. I don't think you use the word this way, but when I use it, or I hear it, I think of things like cheating through performance enhancers, or any other form of cheating. Obviously, Graf had nothing to do with what happened to Seles. The unethical act was Gunter Parche's. I have less of a problem with calling Graf's title haul "inflated," but it is still a word I would not use; and as I already said above, if I'm going to use the word, I'll use it of all players, because every player's title haul can be said to be inflated to some degree. Every player could have faced more competition according to our expectations, particularly if we single out whatever events seem, to our expectations, either unnatural or like they shouldn't have occurred.

My regrets about Seles are the same as yours. My "most favorite" players are Evert and Graf, but I liked Seles a lot, and her fighting spirit was awe-inspiring. She had prodigious mental gifts, which I might even put above that of anyone else, including Austin, Graf, Navratilova, even Evert. True, we did not get to see if she had some degree of mental or emotional vulnerability that would have come out in the course of ordinary events, but what we did see was something to behold.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 10:25 PM
I think we're largely on the same page, especially in regard to Graf's time at #1 on the computer. That's a stat which I have never placed much value on, because while Seles and Graf were sharing Slam titles, they were not sharing the #1 ranking: Seles occupied that spot alone, of course.

One thing I'd like to say about the word you used, "tainted," to describe Graf's records. I don't think you use the word this way, but when I use it, or I hear it, I think of things like cheating through performance enhancers, or any other form of cheating. Obviously, Graf had nothing to do with what happened to Seles. The unethical act was Gunter Parche's. I have less of a problem with calling Graf's title haul "inflated," but it is still a word I would not use; and as I already said above, if I'm going to use the word, I'll use it of all players, because every player's title haul can be said to be inflated to some degree. Every player could have faced more competition according to our expectations, particularly if we single out whatever events seem, to our expectations, either unnatural or like they shouldn't have occurred.

My regrets about Seles are the same as yours. My "most favorite" players are Evert and Graf, but I liked Seles a lot, and her fighting spirit was awe-inspiring. She had prodigious mental gifts, which I might even put above that of anyone else, including Austin, Graf, Navratilova, even Evert. True, we did not get to see if she had some degree of mental or emotional vulnerability that would have come out in the course of ordinary events, but what we did see was something to behold.



Let's just say that Graf got probably 3 or 4 and possibly 5 very big gifts. Happy Birthday Steffi and Merry Christmas too! LOL ;) :p But seriously, tainted might possibly be the wrong word but I couldn't think of a better one. I would have used inflated, but then you would have rebutted with your argument for that regarding that everyone's record is inflated a bit by circumstances and actually I do happen to agree with you on that. I am happy though that you at least see my point and acknowledge it, even if perhaps you don't happen to agree with it.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 10:34 PM
It's also sad to see that Seles' emotional vulnerability was brought to the surface by the attack, rather than on the court. It wasn't the physical aspect that kept her away, because the wound was not that serious in and of itself, but the emotional and mental trauma she was experiencing after the attack and especially after the German courts let him off was what kept her afraid and away from the game, and I don't think she ever got over it even after she came back. I'm sure it was always in the back of her mind every time she walked out on a court once she returned to the game and was most likely a big mental distraction for her, which probably partly contributed to her diminished results IMO. She was still a fighter but not like before the stabbing. A very sad thing.

krosero
08-06-2007, 10:36 PM
I wanted to add that, in addition to Tracy Austin’s loss to Navratilova at the 1978 Wimbledon, she also lost to Martina at Wimbledon the next year. So I would simply repeat that I don’t think she would have taken any of Martina’s Wimbledon titles had she remained healthy. I say that with some caution, not only because this is all speculation, but also because Austin was similar to Chris Evert, who came close to defeating Martina at Wimbledon despite being two years older than Martina and eight years older than Tracy.

But all in all, I’d say that if Martina could have lost titles to a healthy Austin, we’re talking about her 4 USO’s, 3 AO’s, and 2 FO’s. That’s comparable to the 3 USO's, 1 AO and 4 FO’s that Graf won after Seles withdrew from the game (going again on the presumption that her Wimbledon titles were not really threatened by Seles).

krosero
08-06-2007, 10:40 PM
It's also sad to see that Seles' emotional vulnerability was brought to the surface by the attack, rather than on the court. It wasn't the physical aspect that kept her away, because the wound was not that serious in and of itself, but the emotional and mental trauma she was experiencing after the attack and especially after the German courts let him off was what kept her afraid and away from the game, and I don't think she ever got over it even after she came back. I'm sure it was always in the back of her mind every time she walked out on a court once she returned to the game and was most likely a big mental distraction for her, which probably partly contributed to her diminished results IMO. She was still a fighter but not like before the stabbing. A very sad thing.All true, she essentially got a double injury from the courts of law. No question that she suffered greatly, and that she took an injury where she was strongest, that is, in the psychological arena. An ordinary physical injury would not have done that to her. All to her credit, though, that she came back.

anointedone
08-06-2007, 10:44 PM
I think Tracy Austin had a couple of good quotes on Seles in 1997.

Tracy Austin while commentating on Monica at the U.S Open - "I am sure it is very hard on Monica to have gone from being the undisputed #1, to now at still a very young age hearing other people (Hingis, Williams) being talked about as the future of tennis. And it is all because of the stabbing. She was dominating the game at the time."

Tracy Austin - "you have to wonder how many slams Seles would have won. Since she was dominating the game, and then was out for 2 and a half year, and basically had to start all over again."

I think what Tracy meant by starting all over again meant alot of things, finding all your game back which you worked so hard to bring up to that incredibe level, having to do all the work to get back in absolutely top physical condition again (albeit this is one area she never fully invested in upon her return, and some of the blame is probably her own in this case) but also having to start to build up that mental edge and fear factor with the others, she had worked so hard to establish too. She also misses all that time to work on her own game and keep improving herself, and also do her best to respond to the improvements and changes going on around her. While she was out many copied and perfect the power game she introduced to a new level, and she had to come back and face that, having not had to opportunity to be there facing and experiencing it, while this transformation was taking place.

krosero
08-06-2007, 10:46 PM
I am happy though that you at least see my point and acknowledge it, even if perhaps you don't happen to agree with it.I do acknowledge it, and where we differ is probably that I do see Graf as the GOAT -- though perhaps a co-GOAT with Navratilova. I can't say that I've really tried to decide who is the GOAT, on either the women's or men's side, so these thoughts will be a bit sketchy. But for me, if we stick to singles, Graf had a greater proficiency than Navratilova across all surfaces, and was Martina's equal physically, perhaps her superior mentally (but not by much). They have comparable records at the greatest of the tournaments, Wimbledon. They each came back to win one more Slam after they'd been counted out (Seles also returned for one more Slam, too, after her long absence). Graf's title haul can be lowered when we take into account what happened with Seles and Capriaiti, but since something comparable can be done with Austin and Jaeger on Navratilova's side, I see no reason not to put Graf's 22 titles above Navratilova's 18.

But it's very close, so don't be surprised if I ever say something different in the future. :)

anointedone
08-06-2007, 10:48 PM
Austin's story is unfortunate, but her career ended with injuries. Injuries are part of the game. I dont see how there is any parallel between that and how an act of random violence affects history.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 11:24 PM
Austin's story is unfortunate, but her career ended with injuries. Injuries are part of the game. I dont see how there is any parallel between that and how an act of random violence affects history.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.

CEvertFan
08-06-2007, 11:33 PM
For me, the ONLY thing that would make me put Graf over Navratilova in any GOAT discussion, is her winning the "Grand Slam" in 1988, because both Evert (at the AO) and Navratilova (at Wimbledon) could have stopped her but just couldn't get the job done. But for me the things I look at as GOAT criteria are not only Slam titles and regular titles, it's longevity, consistency, how many years at #1, winning percentages etc, so a lot more than just # of Slams won comes into play and I am not even counting doubles, because then Martina and Court would win by a landslide lol.

The biggest thing that bugs me about Graf's record is that she lost the #1 ranking in the prime of her career for almost 3 years before she turned 25 (which in my opinion is the age where you usually don't get any better but slowly start to decline, in some cases faster than others though) and didn't even come close to taking it back in all that time which never really happened to Evert or Navratilova once they became #1. Both of them managed to hold it longer than that. So the lack of consistency in the middle of Graf's career when she was at her peak is the thing I have the most problem with.

Warriorroger
08-07-2007, 02:19 AM
For me, the ONLY thing that would make me put Graf over Navratilova in any GOAT discussion, is her winning the "Grand Slam" in 1988, because both Evert (at the AO) and Navratilova (at Wimbledon) could have stopped her but just couldn't get the job done. But for me the things I look at as GOAT criteria are not only Slam titles and regular titles, it's longevity, consistency, how many years at #1, winning percentages etc, so a lot more than just # of Slams won comes into play and I am not even counting doubles, because then Martina and Court would win by a landslide lol.

The biggest thing that bugs me about Graf's record is that she lost the #1 ranking in the prime of her career for almost 3 years before she turned 25 (which in my opinion is the age where you usually don't get any better but slowly start to decline, in some cases faster than others though) and didn't even come close to taking it back in all that time which never really happened to Evert or Navratilova once they became #1. Both of them managed to hold it longer than that. So the lack of consistency in the middle of Graf's career when she was at her peak is the thing I have the most problem with.

One thing which isn't mentioned here and I really don't care if someone doesn't find Graf the greates or if she only had two GS titles. I like her for her game. But one thing people do not mention is that when entering the Hamburg tournament, the difference in points between Monica and Steffi was not that big. Indirectly you talk about Graf being in peak form in 1988/9 and from 25 on things would have gotten ''worse'', the 1995/6 Graf would have beaten the 1988/9 Graf more often than not. She played with a much better racket, her slice was much better, and also her forehand less predictable. Chris and Martina at the same age played a game which was less injury phrone because of material, opponents, number of tournaments. Questions/discussions about who's the greatest, etc are irrevelant to me, cause I really don't care who people put that tag on. I think Graf gets a lot of crap here, which she really doesn't deserve. I can be critical of my idol; I think she shouldn't have played the Hamburg tournament after the stabbing, out of respect to Monica. I think Steffi, and I believe she couldn't get through to Seles, could have been much more vocal about the situation. But you will never hear people question Monica's mysterious withdrawal from Wimbledon 1991, or fans agreeing that Monica also could have done to get in shape or whatever. I have never been stabbed, so no one can tell her what to do, but Graf gets so much crap around here, she was a great player before Monica came along and both were great tennislayers and entertainers.

krosero
08-07-2007, 04:34 AM
For me, the ONLY thing that would make me put Graf over Navratilova in any GOAT discussion, is her winning the "Grand Slam" in 1988, because both Evert (at the AO) and Navratilova (at Wimbledon) could have stopped her but just couldn't get the job done. What constitutes a Grand Slam is a bit of a controversial issue and I'm not going to derail the thread for it, but IMO, Navratilova won a Grand Slam, too. Just across two calendar years. She won 6 straight Slam titles, while Graf's best streak was 5 in a row.

krosero
08-07-2007, 04:39 AM
Indirectly you talk about Graf being in peak form in 1988/9 and from 25 on things would have gotten ''worse'', the 1995/6 Graf would have beaten the 1988/9 Graf more often than not. She played with a much better racket, her slice was much better, and also her forehand less predictable. Billie Jean King, commenting on a Graf match in 1995, said that Graf looked stronger (she meant physical strength). So she was improving. (She had that chance, unlike Seles, obviously).

krosero
08-07-2007, 05:24 AM
Austin's story is unfortunate, but her career ended with injuries. Injuries are part of the game. I dont see how there is any parallel between that and how an act of random violence affects history.I think it's valid to point out that injuries incurred physically while playing tennis are a common part of the game while a stabbing is a unique occurrence, a unique kind of injury. I am not trying to equate the two. But I think that when we talk about ordinary injuries, we're talking about a player turning his ankle, taking some time off to heal, and getting on with his tennis career. That's a normal part of playing sports, in the sense that such events are universal and virtually unavoidable.

Some injuries or accidents are worse than others, and though we might be able to say in a philosophical way that we have to expect one or two players to suffer career-ending injuries (as Mo Connolly did), I think the least we can say about such events is that they're not ordinary. I think with Connolly we have a very close parallel with Seles, and that the two events can be compared. The fact that Seles was taken out by an external injury that was also an attack and a crime (as you say, an act of random violence that changes history), does not mean that her withdrawal cannot be compared to Connolly's, which took place because of a horseback riding accident involving a truck that crushed her leg. The latter could be put down, if we wished, to the kind of thing that, while rare, has to be expected at some point among young, energetic and risk-taking people who are active in sports. In other words, as a sports injury, it could be set aside as something wholly different to what happened to Seles; we could say that there is no parallel between a sports accident and an act of violence; but the parallel between those two is actually pretty close. Both were #1 when suffering their misfortune and were taken out of the game completely (though in Seles' case, not permanently).

It takes something pretty extraordinary to do that, which is why I don't think we can say that the Seles stabbing was extraordinary just because it was an act of violence. AS AN ACT OF VIOLENCE, it is set apart, of course. But that does not mean that other things, like sports injuries, all necessarily have less catastrophic consequences. Some of those things are extraordinary.

And that's what I'm getting at with Austin and Jaeger. It's ordinary and unavoidable to suffer a temporary injury, take care of yourself, and get on with playing. There is nothing ordinary about undergoing so many injuries early in your career that you can no longer continue, even though you're in the flush of youth and have, on paper, every advantage, every natural hope of continuing.

I have brought up the extraordinary quality of the Navratilova-Evert rivalry for this reason. I don't know when else in tennis history you can find two women who, in their 20s, faced younger and in some ways better rivals, but suddenly, as they approach the age of 30, find that they have the field essentially to themselves and that their two most touted rivals are now gone. There is nothing ordinary about that. In a way, lamentably, it has become part of the game for young girls not to develop to their full potential, but because of the nature of stardom it's also a part of the game for tennis idols to have some deranged fans out there who compel the need for security at the big events (if not elsewhere). All of that, because it has come to be, is now "a part of the game"; I don't think that description (in quotes), really is that helpful.

I don't know if a case can be made to the effect that there was nothing unusual about Austin and Jaeger dropping out of the game early due to injuries; I highly doubt it. To what extent their careers were fatally compromised by too much professional tennis, and fame, at too young a stage in their lives, I don't know. One thing I would find hard to believe, though, is that their time at the top being cut short is something inevitable, unavoidable, and simply a part of playing sports.

And even if it were, I'd have to say that we're still talking about the means and not the results. Ultimately we have to move on to talk about loss of talent that was already there, and about how much of that talent was removed from the pool. How it was removed has bearing only to the extent that it bears on that question. I think what you have to do is, if you lower the title haul of any one player, you have to ask whether the same can be done for whomever she's being compared against. The talent removed from in front of Graf was there; it was also there in the early 80s, removed from Navratilova's path. It was there, and for some reason did not develop. That's what I think you have to compare, ultimately: the raw talent, because under any circumstances that can be called normal, raw talent develops into greatness (provided the drive is there).

CEvertFan
08-07-2007, 06:27 AM
I would have to say that the main reason that Austin and Jaeger had so many injuries, so young is because there was much less money in the game back then then there is now so that just meant they had to play that many more tournaments in order to make a living, combined with probably being pushed to play countless exhibitions etc by whoever was controlling their careers and it was too much for their bodies to handle. They also probably never gave themselves enough time to recuperate form injuries before coming back which just made it a vicious circle.

krosero
08-07-2007, 07:08 AM
I would have to say that the main reason that Austin and Jaeger had so many injuries, so young is because there was much less money in the game back then then there is now so that just meant they had to play that many more tournaments in order to make a living, combined with probably being pushed to play countless exhibitions etc by whoever was controlling their careers and it was too much for their bodies to handle. They also probably never gave themselves enough time to recuperate form injuries before coming back which just made it a vicious circle.I would basically agree with this, from what I know. I would tend to view what happened to Austin and Jaeger, not as ordinary unavoidable injuries that just come with playing sports, but as the direct results of intentional (and unwise) acts. I'm not talking so much of the fact that Austin and Jaeger had injuries as the result that their careers went very badly and ended unnaturally short. That, and not the mere presence of injuries, is what I'm talking about when I say that Austin and Jaeger's early retirements were avoidable events that took place due to intentional, unwise decisions.

Of course, the result was not intentional. That's what sets apart Gunter Parche's (egregious, criminal) decision. But loss of talent is loss of talent. Intentionality does not tell us which loss was greater; it only tells us that Seles' loss was intended.

Really a better way to look at this is not from Parche's point of view, but from Seles'. What happened to her was, from her side, entirely unforeseen, unwanted -- a terrible type of "accident" or misfortune. It was no more wanted than Connolly's accident. Nor did Austin or Jaeger want, or have control over, what happened to them, since the forces acting on them were beyond their control or understanding (and how else could it be, when we're talking about 14-year-old girls?)

I go into this just to say that intentionality is not what sets apart the Seles incident from Austin and Jaeger, if what we're examining is the loss of talent. But in the end, intentionality doesn't even have much to do with the whole question. Had Seles suffered an accident like Connolly's, she would have been taken out of the game even more completely than she was by Parche's intentional act. Intentionality makes some difference when talking about these events, but in deciding how much talent was lost, it seems to have no value at all.

rjkardo
08-07-2007, 08:20 AM
What constitutes a Grand Slam is a bit of a controversial issue and I'm not going to derail the thread for it, but IMO, Navratilova won a Grand Slam, too. Just across two calendar years. She won 6 straight Slam titles, while Graf's best streak was 5 in a row.

A true GS has always been in the same calendar year. It is not that controversial.
Navratilova and Serena won 4 in a row, but not in a calender year.
They do not count as a Grand Slam.

Their accomplishments are great, but not a Grand Slam.
It is like saying a baseball player hit a 3-run home run and a solo shot, therefore hit a grand slam.

Rjkardo

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:01 AM
Let's just say that Graf got probably 3 or 4 and possibly 5 very big gifts. Happy Birthday Steffi and Merry Christmas too!


Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


7 great woman players with successful slam runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-93. They won 1.4 slams in the 2.25 years after that.

What makes you think Seles would have won more?
Give evidence.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:03 AM
But all in all, I’d say that if Martina could have lost titles to a healthy Austin, we’re talking about her 4 USO’s, 3 AO’s, and 2 FO’s. That’s comparable to the 3 USO's, 1 AO and 4 FO’s that Graf won after Seles withdrew from the game (going again on the presumption that her Wimbledon titles were not really threatened by Seles).

Wrong.
Graf won only 1 USO, 2 FOs and 1 AO (plus 2 Wimbledons) when Seles was out.

CEvertFan
08-07-2007, 11:09 AM
Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


7 great woman players with successful slam runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-93. They won 1.4 slams in the 2.25 years after that.

What makes you think Seles would have won more?
Give evidence.

She was younger than Graf, was already #1 in the world and was already winning every major in sight except for Wimbledon. More importantly, Seles was also the 1st pure power player (the 1st Big Babe if you will) which is now pretty commonplace on the women's tour and her power was giving everyone trouble, even Graf. Also her 8 Slams were more than any other woman had ever won in so short amount of time. Also very important is the fact that virtually every professional tennis player/commentator/writer in the world said that she would have indeed won more Slams if she hadn't been stabbed, so you saying that she wouldn't have makes absolutely no sense to me.

Lastly, if you read my earlier post in this thread you will see that I said I didn't think that Seles would necessarily continue to win 3 Slam titles a year for the next 3 years or so but she certainly would have won some of them, but most likely not Wimbledon. There's your evidence.

What makes you think Seles wouldn't have won more majors?? Give Evidence.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:19 AM
The biggest thing that bugs me about Graf's record is that she lost the #1 ranking in the prime of her career for almost 3 years before she turned 25 (which in my opinion is the age where you usually don't get any better but slowly start to decline, in some cases faster than others though) and didn't even come close to taking it back in all that time which never really happened to Evert or Navratilova once they became #1.

Wrong.

Evert was the first #1 when the WTA rankings were introduced. She lost it in 1978 for the first time when she was 23. She even fell back to #3 in summer 1980 whe she was 25. She was not #1 for more than 14 months.

Navratilova became #1 for the first time in 1978 when she was 21. She lost the top spot several times in the next years, fell back to #3 in 80/81 and was not #1 for 22 months in 80/82. She was 23-25 years old then.

Graf changed the #1 ranking with Seles several times in 1991, had the top spot still in September 1991. Seles was stabbed 19 months later, Graf became #1 5 weeks after that.

So Graf didn't hold the #1 spot for 19 months in a row, Evert for 14 months, and Navratilova for 22 months. All were aged between 22 and 25.
Evert and Navratilova even fell back to #3.

You have to be a big Graf-hater to make an argument against her with this.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:25 AM
She was younger than Graf, was already #1 in the world and was already winning every major in sight except for Wimbledon. More importantly, Seles was also the 1st pure power player (the 1st Big Babe if you will) which is now pretty commonplace on the women's tour and her power was giving everyone trouble, even Graf. Also her 8 Slams were more than any other woman had ever won in so short amount of time. ...

Wrong again.
Seles won her first slam in June 1990, her 8th in January 1993. That is 31 months.

Connolly won 8 slams within 24 months (July 1952 - July 1954).
Court won 8 slams within 24 months (January 1969 - January 1971).
Graf won 8 slams within 24 months (January 1988 - January 1990).

Please stop your really annoying lies.

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:26 AM
Wrong.
Graf won only 1 USO, 2 FOs and 1 AO (plus 2 Wimbledons) when Seles was out.And if you notice, I was counting the titles that Graf won "after Seles withdrew from the game" (to quote myself). I wrote it that way so I clearly would not confine myself to Seles' absence. Why should I? The question is whether she was ever the same player after the stabbing. I don't think she was. But even if a case could be made to that effect (and anyone is free to make it), it's right and necessary, as a mere matter of methodology, to consider everything that took place after the stabbing, and not just the titles that Graf won during Seles' absence. One cannot just presume that Seles was the same upon her return. That argument has to be made; an argument has to be mounted that Graf, against a Seles who never suffered an attack, would still have taken the titles she won after Seles' return in August 2005.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:29 AM
What constitutes a Grand Slam is a bit of a controversial issue and I'm not going to derail the thread for it, but IMO, Navratilova won a Grand Slam, too.

Your problem is that almost all tennis fans and experts think otherwise.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:29 AM
Billie Jean King, commenting on a Graf match in 1995, said that Graf looked stronger (she meant physical strength). So she was improving. (She had that chance, unlike Seles, obviously).

Seles had the chance, too.

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:30 AM
You have to be a big Graf-hater to make an argument against her with this.The person you directed this to is no Graf-hater. And as far as I'm concerned, "Graf-hater" is a useless and destructive term. You would do well to drop it.

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:32 AM
Your problem is that almost all tennis fans and experts think otherwise.I have no problem thinking independently. An argument from authority is no argument at all.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:34 AM
And if you notice, I was counting the titles that Graf won "after Seles withdrew from the game" (to quote myself). I wrote it that way so I clearly would not confine myself to Seles' absence. Why should I? The question is whether she was ever the same player after the stabbing. I don't think she was. But even if a case could be made to that effect (and anyone is free to make it), it's right and necessary, as a mere matter of methodology, to consider everything that took place after the stabbing, and not just the titles that Graf won during Seles' absence. One cannot just presume that Seles was the same upon her return. That argument has to be made; an argument has to be mounted that Graf, against a Seles who never suffered an attack, would still have taken the titles she won after Seles' return in August 2005.


Which player is the same as a 19-year-old (Seles at stabbing) and a 25-year-old (Seles at FO 99 when she lost to Graf)?
No one of course.

Graf was not the same at age 19 and 25, nor Hingis nor Serena or Venus.
So I don't see what your point is.

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:34 AM
Seles had the chance, too.Seles could practice while she was away, but she lost two years of match play, which is crucial. That's a fact. I don't think it does any disservice to Graf simply to acknowledge that fact.

And it is no knock on her that she chose to stay away, and every credit to her that she chose to come back when she did.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:41 AM
The person you directed this to is no Graf-hater. And as far as I'm concerned, "Graf-hater" is a useless and destructive term. You would do well to drop it.

Then why does this person say that Graf was not #1 for 3 years and that Evert and Navratilova - when younger than 25 - never had comparable bad runs?
Is this person just uninformed or simply a liar? Maybe the former ....

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:44 AM
I have no problem thinking independently. An argument from authority is no argument at all.

Well, then Graf has won 4 grand slams. Because she won FO, Wimbledon and USO in the same year 4 times (1988, 1993, 1995, 1996). That is a grand slam for me. Because I think "independently".

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:45 AM
Then why does this person say that Graf was not #1 for 3 years and that Evert and Navratilova - when younger than 25 - never had comparable bad runs?
Is this person just uninformed or simply a liar? Maybe the former ....Challenging arguments is one thing. But "Graf-hater" is an ad hominem argument.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:45 AM
Seles could practice while she was away, but she lost two years of match play, which is crucial. That's a fact. I don't think it does any disservice to Graf simply to acknowledge that fact.

And it is no knock on her that she chose to stay away, and every credit to her that she chose to come back when she did.


She had the chance. She chose not to take it.

CEvertFan
08-07-2007, 11:46 AM
Wrong.

Evert was the first #1 when the WTA rankings were introduced. She lost it in 1978 for the first time when she was 23. She even fell back to #3 in summer 1980 whe she was 25. She was not #1 for more than 14 months.

Navratilova became #1 for the first time in 1978 when she was 21. She lost the top spot several times in the next years, fell back to #3 in 80/81 and was not #1 for 22 months in 80/82. She was 23-25 years old then.

Graf changed the #1 ranking with Seles several times in 1991, had the top spot still in September 1991. Seles was stabbed 19 months later, Graf became #1 5 weeks after that.

So Graf didn't hold the #1 spot for 19 months in a row, Evert for 14 months, and Navratilova for 22 months. All were aged between 22 and 25.
Evert and Navratilova even fell back to #3.

You have to be a big Graf-hater to make an argument against her with this.



Evert became #1 on November 3, 1975 when the WTA COMPUTER rankings were 1st introduced and lost it for the 1st time on July 10, 1978 to Navratilova which is 140 weeks straight but if you count all of 1974 when she was #1 as well it's almost 5 years before that happened which is longer than Graf's run. Believe me if Monica hadn't been stabbed Graf wouldn't have those extra 87 weeks at #1.

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:49 AM
She had the chance. She chose not to take it.And that's all you wish to say about it? What about the fact that Parsche was let off easy? I have never been remotely in a situation like Seles'; I am nothing but a tennis fan sitting easy and watching from a safe distance; no way would I pass judgment on her for not stepping right back in.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:49 AM
Challenging arguments is one thing. But "Graf-hater" is an ad hominem argument.

It was not an argument. This person simply stated wrong facts.
Twice within a short time:
1) No other player had won 8 slam in such a short time as Seles.
2) Graf was not #1 for 3 years and Evert/Navratilova didn't have comparable bad runs before age 25.
Both clearly wrong.

What next?
Should I simply say "Graf won 25 slams" and hope nobody knows the right tally? And when I get caught just say, well, this was an argument??

krosero
08-07-2007, 11:52 AM
It was not an argument. This person simply stated wrong facts. I will only repeat this one more time. Challenging a person's fact is one thing. calling them a "Graf-hater" is ad hominem. You want to appear like you're defending ad homimen tactics? Your choice.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:54 AM
Evert became #1 on November 3, 1975 when the WTA COMPUTER rankings were 1st introduced and lost it for the 1st time on July 10, 1978 to Navratilova which is 140 weeks straight but if you count all of 1974 when she was #1 as well it's almost 5 years before that happened which is longer than Graf's run. ...

And Navratilova?

BTW, that was not your point.
You stated that Graf lost her #1 spot for 3 years, which is clearly wrong.
You stated that Navratilova and Evert didn't have bad streaks comparable to Graf when aged younger than 25/26. Which is obviously wrong, too.

And you stated in this thread that no player before Seles managed to win 8 slams in such a short time as she did. Which is a joke.

Can't you understand that I question your honesty?

We can discuss Graf/Seles, but please without those lies. As a Graf fan I'm fed up with this s***.

CEvertFan
08-07-2007, 11:54 AM
It was not an argument. This person simply stated wrong facts.
Twice within a short time:
1) No other player had won 8 slam in such a short time as Seles.
2) Graf was not #1 for 3 years and Evert/Navratilova didn't have comparable bad runs before age 25.
Both clearly wrong.

What next?
Should I simply say "Graf won 25 slams" and hope nobody knows the right tally? And when I get caught just say, well, this was an argument??


Ok I was misinformed about those two facts. I really should look up stuff better before saying anything. You however didn't answer my question about why you think Seles wouldn't have won another Slam if she had remained in the game. Remember, give evidence.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 11:55 AM
And that's all you wish to say about it? What about the fact that Parsche was let off easy? I have never been remotely in a situation like Seles'; I am nothing but a tennis fan sitting easy and watching from a safe distance; no way would I pass judgment on her for not stepping right back in.

This is one thing.
To say she didn't have the chance to improve after 1993 another.

CEvertFan
08-07-2007, 11:58 AM
Just so everyone can keep all the facts straight, including myself:

WTA TENNIS RANKINGS HISTORY - The No. 1 Players


RANKING DATE PLAYER WEEKS
AT NO. 1

November 3, 1975 Chris Evert (1) 140
July 10, 1978 Martina Navratilova (2) 27
January 14, 1979 Chris Evert 2
January 28, 1979 Martina Navratilova 4
February 25, 1979 Chris Evert 7
April 16, 1979 Martina Navratilova 10
June 25, 1979 Chris Evert 11
September 10, 1979 Martina Navratilova 30
April 7, 1980 Tracy Austin (3) 2
April 21, 1980 Martina Navratilova 10
July 1, 1980 Tracy Austin 20
November 18, 1980 Chris Evert 76
May 3, 1982 Martina Navratilova 2
May 17, 1982 Chris Evert 4
June 14, 1982 Martina Navratilova 156
June 10, 1985 Chris Evert 18
October 14, 1985 Martina Navratilova 2
October 28, 1985 Chris Evert 4
November 25, 1985 Martina Navratilova 90
August 17, 1987 Steffi Graf (4) 186
March 11, 1991 Monica Seles (5) 21
August 5, 1991 Steffi Graf 1
August 12, 1991 Monica Seles 1
August 19, 1991 Steffi Graf 3
September 9, 1991 Monica Seles 91
June 7, 1993 Steffi Graf 87
February 6, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (6) 2
February 20, 1995 Steffi Graf 1
February 27, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 6
April 10, 1995 Steffi Graf 5
May 15, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 4
June 12, 1995 Steffi Graf 9
August 15, 1995 Steffi Graf/Monica Seles 64
November 4, 1996 Steffi Graf 2
November 18, 1996 Steffi Graf/Monica Seles 1
November 25, 1996 Steffi Graf 18
March 31, 1997 Martina Hingis (7) 80
October 12, 1998 Lindsay Davenport (8) 17
February 8, 1999 Martina Hingis 21
July 5, 1999 Lindsay Davenport 5
August 9, 1999 Martina Hingis 34
April 3, 2000 Lindsay Davenport 5
May 8, 2000 Martina Hingis 1
May 15, 2000 Lindsay Davenport 1
May 22, 2000 Martina Hingis 73
October 15, 2001 Jennifer Capriati (9) 3
November 5, 2001 Lindsay Davenport 10
January 14, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 6
February 25, 2002 Venus Williams (10) 3
March 18, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 5
April 22, 2002 Venus Williams 4
May 20, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 3
June 10, 2002 Venus Williams 4
July 8, 2002 Serena Williams (11) 57
August 11, 2003 Kim Clijsters (12) 10
October 20, 2003 Justin Henin-Hardenne (13) 1
October 27, 2003 Kim Clijsters 2
November 10, 2003 Justine Henin-Hardenne 44
September 13, 2004 Amelie Mauresmo (14) 5
October 18, 2004 Lindsay Davenport 44
August, 22, 2005 Maria Sharapova (15) 1
August 29, 2005 Lindsay Davenport 2
September 12, 2005 Maria Sharapova 6
October 24, 2005 Lindsay Davenport 13
January 30, 2006 Kim Clijsters 7
March 20, 2006 Amelie Mauresmo 34
November 13 , 2006 Justine Henin 11
January 29 , 2007 Maria Sharapova 14
March 19 , 2007 Justine Henin 9**



WTA TOTAL WEEKS AT NO. 1

PLAYER WEEKS
NO. 1

Steffi Graf 377
Martina Navratilova 331
Chris Evert 262
Martina Hingis 209
Monica Seles 178
Lindsay Davenport 97
Justine Henin 65**
Serena Williams 57
Amelie Mauresmo 39
Tracy Austin 22
Kim Clijsters 19
Jennifer Capriati 17
Maria Sharapova 14
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 12
Venus Williams 11

** Thru week of May 14, 2007

Borat72
08-07-2007, 12:04 PM
Ok I was misinformed about those two facts. I really should look up stuff better before saying anything. You however didn't answer my question about why you think Seles wouldn't have won another Slam if she had remained in the game. Remember, give evidence.

OK, apology accepted. But in the meantime I react a little bit allergic to these factual errors because Seles fans often simply use lies, faactual lies.

I think Seles would have won more slams.
I have pointed out that on average 7 great players with great runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-93 managed to win 1.4 slams on average in the 2.25 years right after their runs. So I think Seles would have won 1 or 2 slams at least in those 2.25 years she missed in 93-95 due to the stabbing. Maybe even more (3 or 4?). But even IF she had been as successful as Navratilova with her FIVE slams in the next 2.25 years that would not have meant that they all would have been at the expense of Graf. Remember, Graf won only 6 of the 10 slam tournaments Seles missed. So then maybe Seles would have won 2 at the expense of Graf and her other 3 at the expense of Sanchez, Pierce etc.
But again - those numbers would be extremely benevolent to Seles.
Because on average the abovementioned 7 greats only won 1.4 slams.

I understand that this is not easy to stomach for Seles fans. But it is a common misconception that success in 1 or 2 or even 3 years says a lot about the future. It simply doesn't. There is evidence aplenty - in tennis and in other sports.

Many people think Federer will win the next 3 Wimbledons and Nadal the next 3 FOs.
Be assured - they won't.

Borat72
08-07-2007, 12:06 PM
Just so everyone can keep all the facts straight, including myself:

WTA TENNIS RANKINGS HISTORY - The No. 1 Players


RANKING DATE PLAYER WEEKS
AT NO. 1

November 3, 1975 Chris Evert (1) 140
July 10, 1978 Martina Navratilova (2) 27
January 14, 1979 Chris Evert 2
January 28, 1979 Martina Navratilova 4
February 25, 1979 Chris Evert 7
April 16, 1979 Martina Navratilova 10
June 25, 1979 Chris Evert 11
September 10, 1979 Martina Navratilova 30
April 7, 1980 Tracy Austin (3) 2
April 21, 1980 Martina Navratilova 10
July 1, 1980 Tracy Austin 20
November 18, 1980 Chris Evert 76
May 3, 1982 Martina Navratilova 2
May 17, 1982 Chris Evert 4
June 14, 1982 Martina Navratilova 156
June 10, 1985 Chris Evert 18
October 14, 1985 Martina Navratilova 2
October 28, 1985 Chris Evert 4
November 25, 1985 Martina Navratilova 90
August 17, 1987 Steffi Graf (4) 186
March 11, 1991 Monica Seles (5) 21
August 5, 1991 Steffi Graf 1
August 12, 1991 Monica Seles 1
August 19, 1991 Steffi Graf 3
September 9, 1991 Monica Seles 91
June 7, 1993 Steffi Graf 87
February 6, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario (6) 2
February 20, 1995 Steffi Graf 1
February 27, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 6
April 10, 1995 Steffi Graf 5
May 15, 1995 Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 4
June 12, 1995 Steffi Graf 9
August 15, 1995 Steffi Graf/Monica Seles 64
November 4, 1996 Steffi Graf 2
November 18, 1996 Steffi Graf/Monica Seles 1
November 25, 1996 Steffi Graf 18
March 31, 1997 Martina Hingis (7) 80
October 12, 1998 Lindsay Davenport (8) 17
February 8, 1999 Martina Hingis 21
July 5, 1999 Lindsay Davenport 5
August 9, 1999 Martina Hingis 34
April 3, 2000 Lindsay Davenport 5
May 8, 2000 Martina Hingis 1
May 15, 2000 Lindsay Davenport 1
May 22, 2000 Martina Hingis 73
October 15, 2001 Jennifer Capriati (9) 3
November 5, 2001 Lindsay Davenport 10
January 14, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 6
February 25, 2002 Venus Williams (10) 3
March 18, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 5
April 22, 2002 Venus Williams 4
May 20, 2002 Jennifer Capriati 3
June 10, 2002 Venus Williams 4
July 8, 2002 Serena Williams (11) 57
August 11, 2003 Kim Clijsters (12) 10
October 20, 2003 Justin Henin-Hardenne (13) 1
October 27, 2003 Kim Clijsters 2
November 10, 2003 Justine Henin-Hardenne 44
September 13, 2004 Amelie Mauresmo (14) 5
October 18, 2004 Lindsay Davenport 44
August, 22, 2005 Maria Sharapova (15) 1
August 29, 2005 Lindsay Davenport 2
September 12, 2005 Maria Sharapova 6
October 24, 2005 Lindsay Davenport 13
January 30, 2006 Kim Clijsters 7
March 20, 2006 Amelie Mauresmo 34
November 13 , 2006 Justine Henin 11
January 29 , 2007 Maria Sharapova 14
March 19 , 2007 Justine Henin 9**



WTA TOTAL WEEKS AT NO. 1

PLAYER WEEKS
NO. 1

Steffi Graf 377
Martina Navratilova 331
Chris Evert 262
Martina Hingis 209
Monica Seles 178
Lindsay Davenport 97
Justine Henin 65**
Serena Williams 57
Amelie Mauresmo 39
Tracy Austin 22
Kim Clijsters 19
Jennifer Capriati 17
Maria Sharapova 14
Arantxa Sanchez-Vicario 12
Venus Williams 11

** Thru week of May 14, 2007


And don't you forget:
Evert and Navratilova even fell back to the #3 spot at age 23-25.
;)

ATPballkid
08-10-2007, 03:34 PM
OK, apology accepted. But in the meantime I react a little bit allergic to these factual errors because Seles fans often simply use lies, faactual lies.



___________________ GRAF______ SELES

1990 Australian______ WON_______ DNP
1990 French________ FINAL ______ WON
1990 Wimbledon_____ SEMIS______ QUARTERS
1990 U.S. Open______ FINAL _______ THIRD ROUND
1990 WTA Championships_ SEMIS_____ WON
1990 Majors Record____ 26-4 (86.7%)__ 20-2 (91%)


1991 Australian_______ QUARTERS____ WON
1991 French_________ SEMIS________ WON
1991 Wimbledon______ WON_________ DNP
1991 U.S. Open_______ SEMIS _______ WON
1991 WTA Championships_QUARTERS____ WON
_______________ 22-4 (84.6%)____28-0 (100%)


1992 Australian _______ DNP ________ WON
1992 French__________ FINAL_______ WON
1992 Wimbledon_______ WON_______ FINAL
1992 U.S. Open________QUARTERS___ WON
1992 WTA Championships_FIRST ROUND__ WON
__________________ 17-3 (85%)______34-1 (97%)


1993 Australian________ FINAL________WON
6-1 (85.7%) 7-0 (100%)


So ... what kind of an impact did the knife of Gunther Parche have?

How did Graf do in the next 5 major events AFTER the knife of Gunther Parche made sure that Monica Seles was no longer dominating women's tennis at the age of 19 years, 4 months after dominating in these earlier years?

___________________#2 GRAF______#1 SELES

APRIL 1993 --------------------------- STABBED

1993 French_________ WON
1993 Wimbledon______ WON
1993 U.S. Open_______ WON
1993 WTA Championships_WON

1994 Australian_________WON


At what point in here were we supposed to have just forgotten that Monica Seles was stabbed by a jealous Graf fan?


___________________ GRAF______ SELES


1990 WTA Championships____ SEMIS___WON


1991 Australian_______ QUARTERS ___ WON
1991 French_________ SEMIS_______ WON
1991 Wimbledon______ WON________ DNP
1991 U.S. Open_______ SEMIS_______ WON
1991 WTA Championships _ QUARTERS__ WON


1992 Australian_______ DNP_________ WON
1992 French_________ FINAL________ WON
1992 Wimbledon______ WON_________ FINAL
1992 U.S. Open______QUARTERS______ WON
1992 WTA Championships _FIRST ROUND__ WON

1993 Australian________ FINAL________ WON

Interesting that the ONLY win that Graf had at a major event other than the 1992 Wimbledon was the ONLY event that Monica Seles did not play.



So ... what kind of an impact did the knife of Gunther Parche have?

How did Graf do in the next 5 major events AFTER the knife of Gunther Parche made sure that Monica Seles was no longer dominating women's tennis at the age of 19 years, 4 months after dominating in these earlier years?

___________________#2 GRAF_________#1 SELES

APRIL 1993 ------------------------------- STABBED

1993 French___________ WON*
1993 Wimbledon________ WON*
1993 U.S. Open_________ WON*
1993 WTA Championships__ WON*

1994 Australian__________ WON*


At what point in here were we supposed to have just forgotten that Monica Seles was stabbed by a jealous Graf fan?

BTURNER
08-10-2007, 06:12 PM
I refuse to discard titles or minimize titles that Graf worked for and won because Seles wasn't in the tournament. I refuse to throw a few french titles to Austin from Evert's stash and maybe an open or two from Navratilova or guestimate how often Jaeger would have beaten Evert. If Evert can improve enough to beat Austin at the US open, then loose again in straight sets later that year to Austin, I dare not assume anything about how their rivalry would tilt. The same can be said for Graf, who in fact was having some closer scores in her losses to Seles before the stabbing, even on clay. She may have begun to find an answer to Seles power and learned shots or strategies to blunt the Seles game. May have tilted back the other way. Graf deserves her titles and all that they mean. 22 slams is more than Navratilova got. Better distributed and won slam finals against such "basket-case level competition" as Evert 18 slams, Navratilova 18 slams, Sabatini 1 Slam, Seles 9 slams, Novatna 1 slam,Sanchez 4 slams, and Hingus 5 slams. In the semis or quarter in some of these slams she beat other "basket-case level competition" as Venus and Serena Williams eventual winners of 14 slams, Capriati 3 slams, and Davenport 3 slams.

BTURNER
08-10-2007, 06:16 PM
To be almost as good as Evert on clay, almost as good on grass as Evert and better than either on hard courts and more total than either of them = GOAT in my book. No greater compliment is there!

BTURNER
08-10-2007, 06:17 PM
oops the above should have read almost as good on grass as NAVRATILOVA

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 07:45 PM
She may have begun to find an answer to Seles power and learned shots or strategies to blunt the Seles game.

Monica Seles dominates the Aussie, French, US Open from spring 90 to spring '93, winning 8 of the 9 contested during that time. Graff wins *none* of those. Zilch .

Seles then is stabbed by a german grafan who despairs of steffi ever winning those slams again, and voila, suddenly, with Seles out of the way, Graff wins them by the bushel! She wins the first 3 contested right after Seles leaves, and then wins a total of 7 of them over the next 3 years.

Anyone who wants to doubt a causal connection between the two events has a mountain of beggaring-belief to overcome.

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 07:49 PM
May have tilted back the other way.

Graff got the better of Seles because of the stabbing. I always felt that Graff played better after Monica'a stabbing. She relaxed more, because her most intimidating opponent was no longer a factor. Graff and Monica didn't play very often before the stabbing because Graff wasn't making the finals as consistently. After Monica was gone, Graff was consistently making finals and winning nearly all of them.

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 07:52 PM
The same can be said for Graf, who in fact was having some closer scores in her losses to Seles before the stabbing, even on clay.

1991: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1992: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1993: seles 1 slam, graff 0

how was the gap closing ?

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 07:56 PM
I refuse to discard titles or minimize titles that Graf worked for and won because Seles wasn't in the tournament.

During a wta match telecast in 2002, Evert noted that before Seles's stabbing, she was clearly the best player in the world, and that Steffi hadn't won many slams in the 2-3 years before then. Then, after the stabbing, Graff went on a tear winning several more in the later years.

Evert reminds us of a key point. We can't know for sure what would have happened, but it is likely that Steffi won at least 8-9 additional slams that she wouldn't have won as a result of the Seles stabbing. That should be kept in mind when evaluating Graff vs. the likes of Evert and Navratilova.

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 07:59 PM
OK, apology accepted. But in the meantime I react a little bit allergic to these factual errors because Seles fans often simply use lies, faactual lies.

I think Seles would have won more slams.
I have pointed out that on average 7 great players with great runs comparable to Seles's in 1991-93 managed to win 1.4 slams on average in the 2.25 years right after their runs.

Condi - do you get paid a commission for each incomprehensible post you make? Just curious.

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 08:05 PM
[
1993 Australian________ FINAL________ WON



So ... what kind of an impact did the knife of Gunther Parche have?



What's so surprising now is that, looking back at the media coverage after the 1993 Australian, there was a pretty clear consensus that Seles was going to be the greater player in terms of accomplishments. At that point their slam totals were 8 and 11.

Borat72
08-10-2007, 10:29 PM
Monica Seles dominates the Aussie, French, US Open from spring 90 to spring '93, winning 8 of the 9 contested during that time. Graff wins *none* of those. ....

Seles won only 8 of the 12 contested that time.
Graf won 2, Navratilova 1 and Sabatini 1.

Nice try ....:D

Borat72
08-10-2007, 10:31 PM
I always felt that Graff played better after Monica'a stabbing.

Exactly.
And that's why Seles would not have won more than 1 or 2 slams post-April93 (maybe at the expense of Pierce, Sanchez?) considering that even before that a #1 Seles lost 60 % of her matches against Graf.

Borat72
08-10-2007, 10:42 PM
1991: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1992: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1993: seles 1 slam, graff 0

how was the gap closing ?


Ranking points gap in Seles's favour:
January 1992: 58 pts.
November 1992: 32 pts.
April 1992: 21 pts.
Gap closed by 37 pts.

Seles winning percentage April 1991 - April 1992: 93.8 %
Graf winning percentage April 1991 - April 1992: 90.9 %
Gap: 2.9 %
Seles winning percentage April 1992 - April 1993: 92.1 %
Graf winning percentage April 1992 - April 1992: 92.0 %
Gap: 0.1 %

Slam final performance:
Seles April 1991 - April 1992: 3 finals
Graf April 1991 - April 1992: 1 final
Gap: 2 finals
Seles April 1992 - April 1993: 4 finals
Graf April 1992 - April 1993: 3 finals
Gap: 1 final

Borat72
08-10-2007, 10:48 PM
During a wta match telecast in 2002, Evert noted that before Seles's stabbing, she was clearly the best player in the world, and that Steffi hadn't won many slams in the 2-3 years before then. Then, after the stabbing, Graff went on a tear winning several more in the later years.

Evert reminds us of a key point. We can't know for sure what would have happened, but it is likely that Steffi won at least 8-9 additional slams that she wouldn't have won as a result of the Seles stabbing. That should be kept in mind when evaluating Graff vs. the likes of Evert and Navratilova.


You are wrong.
Seles winning 7 of 9 slams in January 1991 - January 1993 doesn't mean a lot.
Just have a look at this:

Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


So only one of these seven greats managed to win more than 2 slams after their successful slam runs. On average they won only 1.4 slams in the 2.25 years after their runs.
Says it all ....:)

Borat72
08-10-2007, 10:52 PM
What's so surprising now is that, looking back at the media coverage after the 1993 Australian, there was a pretty clear consensus that Seles was going to be the greater player in terms of accomplishments. At that point their slam totals were 8 and 11.

ROTFL!
There was definitely no such "consensus".
The consensus was that Graf was closing the gap.
Within the last 12 months she had put up great fights against Seles in the 2 slams that favoured Seles (slow surfaces) and simply thrashed the Serb in the slam that favoured herself.

FedSampras
08-10-2007, 11:58 PM
Within the last 12 months she had put up great fights against Seles in the 2 slams that favoured Seles (slow surfaces) and simply thrashed the Serb in the slam that favoured herself.

Monica Seles dominated the AO, the French, US Open slams (including YEC) between 90-93, beating graff 3-1 in slam finals during that time, 3-0 in the non-W slams. seles (the two- or three- time defending champ at the AO, FO, and USO) leaves the tour and graff suddenly wins the FO (hadn't won in 5 years), the AO (hadn't won in 4 years) and the USO (hadn't won in 4 years)..?

it's pretty obvious that the stabber did what graff had been unable to do - knock off seles and return big nose GERM graff to the top.

FedSampras
08-11-2007, 12:00 AM
Exactly.
And that's why Seles would not have won more than 1 or 2 slams

Yes:D , but since Graff couldn't do it on the court, Parche had to do it with a KNIFE.

FedSampras
08-11-2007, 12:06 AM
Ranking points gap in Seles's favour:
January 1992: 58 pts.


We all know that Seles was the clear #1 at the time of stabbing (defending champ at 3 slams) and that Graff was a clear #2 (W champ plus runner-up at AO and FO).

In 11/93 Graff obviously felt VERY INSECURE about everyone saying that she was "gifted" the #1 rank by the stabber, and felt the need to defend her #1 ranking. So she wanted to emphasize how "close" it was.

But that's irrelevant, because Seles was #1 and had been for 2 years before the stabbing. Whether Graff or her demented fans liked it or not, the KNIFE made her the top player.:D

Borat72
08-11-2007, 02:39 AM
Monica Seles dominated the AO, the French, US Open slams (including YEC) between 90-93, ...

Wrong.
Seles won only 2 of the 4 USOs played in this time frame.
She never beat a top 4 player there. No wonder she lost to Graf as soon as she met her in a final there.

BTW, winning tons of slams for 2 years doesn't mean anything.
Have a look at Connolly's, Court's, Graf's, Hingis's and Serena's great slam winning runs:

Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


How on earth would a weight-gaining Seles have managed to win more than 1 slams additional slam in 93-95?

Borat72
08-11-2007, 02:40 AM
Yes:D , but since Graff couldn't do it on the court, Parche had to do it with a KNIFE.


Of course Graf could do it on the court.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 02:44 AM
We all know that Seles was the clear #1 at the time of stabbing (defending champ at 3 slams) ....


In spring 1997 Hingis was WTA #1 although Graf was still holding 3 slam titles (USO, FO, Wimbledon).


Graf was so close to Seles in April 1993 that a FO win that year would have propelled Graf to #1 even if Seles had made the finals there (which we don't know). Considering everybody acknowledges that Graf of 1993 was better than Graf of 1992 and that the FO 92 final was very close I can't visualize how Seles could have stopped Graf at FO (or USO). Tell us, how she could have done that ...

Borat72
08-11-2007, 02:50 AM
In 11/93 Graff obviously felt VERY INSECURE about everyone saying that she was "gifted" the #1 rank by the stabber, and felt the need to defend her #1 ranking. So she wanted to emphasize how "close" it was.

She was asked about it and she presented only the facts.
That she had closed the gap from 58 to 21 points so a FO 93 win would have made her #1 anyway. It can't get much closer.

Don't forget that Graf was already leading Seles in matches won (80-7 vs. only 58-5).

So it looked like in April 1993:

#1: Monica Seles: 321 pts. 58-5 win/loss
#1: Steffi Graf: 300 pts. 80-7 win/loss

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 04:06 AM
1991: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1992: seles 3 slams, graff 1
1993: seles 1 slam, graff 0

how was the gap closing ?

I said some of the SCORES were getting closer (in the H to H. matches.)
2 / 2
1991 CITIZEN CUP CLAY (O) F S. GRAF 7-5 6-7(4) 6-3

2 / 2
1992 FRENCH OPEN CLAY (O) F M. SELES 6-2 3-6 10-8

2 / 2
1992 WIMBLEDON GRASS (O) F S. GRAF 6-2 6-1

2 / 2
1993 AUSTRALIAN OPEN HARD (O) F M. SELES 4-6 6-3 6-2

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 04:08 AM
above is the last four meetings right before the stabbing

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 04:32 AM
During a wta match telecast in 2002, Evert noted that before Seles's stabbing, she was clearly the best player in the world, and that Steffi hadn't won many slams in the 2-3 years before then. Then, after the stabbing, Graff went on a tear winning several more in the later years.

Evert reminds us of a key point. We can't know for sure what would have happened, but it is likely that Steffi won at least 8-9 additional slams that she wouldn't have won as a result of the Seles stabbing. That should be kept in mind when evaluating Graff vs. the likes of Evert and Navratilova.
Again, you just don't get it. You cannot modifiy only Graf/Seles history in vacumn. Every champion has had such luck in their careers with respect to talent disappearing including Navratilova and Evert. You need to take away a couple of titles each from both of them and "give them" to Jaeger and Austin for the comparison to work. I refuse to play God this way and legitimize or rewrite of history. Graf won 22 slams. Navratilova won 18. Evert won 18 and
Seles won 9. Lots of great players would have stolen titles that went to someone else if fate had not intervened. The only thing that is unique about Seles is WHAT got her removed.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 05:51 AM
above is the last four meetings right before the stabbing

And the match before that was won by Graf, too.
6-4 6-3 in San Antonio in February 1991.
A thorough belting for Seles.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 05:54 AM
Again, you just don't get it. You cannot modifiy only Graf/Seles history in vacumn. Every champion has had such luck in their careers with respect to talent disappearing including Navratilova and Evert. You need to take away a couple of titles each from both of them and "give them" to Jaeger and Austin for the comparison to work. I refuse to play God this way and legitimize or rewrite of history. Graf won 22 slams. Navratilova won 18. Evert won 18 and
Seles won 9. Lots of great players would have stolen titles that went to someone else if fate had not intervened. The only thing that is unique about Seles is WHAT got her removed.


We must not forget that almost no other player had so many injuries, illness and had to endure so many bizarre off-court distractions as Graf.
She won SIX slam titles while being under investigation for tax evasion in 1995/96 (her dad was in prison for most of that time). She fought back after a knee injury which would have ended the careers of lesser mortals to beat the #2, #3 and #1 player in the world on her way to the FO 99 title.
She was a fighter, always.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:39 PM
Wrong.
Seles won only 2 of the 4 USOs played in this time frame.
She never beat a top 4 player there.

Seles as a teenager was #1 for 1991, 1992 and for the part of 1993 before she was stabbed in the back with a knife by a German man who was a jealous fan of Steffi Graf.

During the 30 months before the stabbing of Seles in the back with a sharp knife by a Graf fan, Seles won 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments played in women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early part of 1993 -- of the 2 events out of those 11 that Seles did not win, she did not enter one of those events and was runnerup in the other.

There is absolutely no doubt that the #1 player of the first half of the 1990s was Monica Seles ... she was the best player in terms of her singles titles won and she was #1 in terms of her ranking during that time. She accomplished these things as a teenager when Steffi Graf, the former #1 at that time, was in her 20s for the most part.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:41 PM
Wrong.

BTW, winning tons of slams for 2 years doesn't mean anything.


Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:43 PM
I said some of the SCORES were getting closer (in the H to H. matches.)
2 / 2



HERE is how far they were apart: MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS

SELES WON_______________ GRAF WON

1990 WTA Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 WTA Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
_________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 WTA Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:45 PM
So it looked like in April 1993:



You mean Seles was 16, 17, 18 and 19 --- and Graf was 20, 21, 22 and 23 --- when Seles was the CLEAR #1 player in women's tennis in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993? Yeah, she had a winning record vs. Graf in those years and she won 9 of the 11 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and the stabbing by a Steffi Graf fan.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:49 PM
She was a fighter, always.

Just as she is now -- even though the stabbing of the true #1 of that era in the back with a knife by one of her fans certainly doesn't help her case any.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:49 PM
Connolly:


Kind of like Maureen Connollly in the early 1950s ... but Connolly lost her #1 ranking and her dominance to a horseback riding injury while Graf lost her #1 ranking to a young teenage girl named Monica Seles ... UNTIL one of her fans stabbed Seles in the back with a knife, that is.

ATPballkid
08-11-2007, 01:50 PM
We must not forget that almost no other player had so many injuries, illness

Health is a part of the game ... the better players try to stay healthy for a reason .. of course, there are times when the best players are stabbed in the back with a knife so that lesser players can have a chance to win ... but those occasions, fortunately, are very rare in the sport.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 03:16 PM
Of course, Seles would have surpassed Graf.

Seles was winning 3 Grand Slam singles titles per year in 1991, 1992 and then had won the first Slam of 1993.

Seles had also won the Tour Championships in 1990, 1991 and 1992.

With Seles winning 2 Slams more per year than Graf was winning, it was only a matter of times before the lines crossed --- unless, of course, a fan of Graf's took a gun to Seles' head -- or a knife to Seles' back -- when she was not expecting it.

LOL!
What makes you think Seles would have won 3 slams in 1993, 1994, 1995?
It has been proven that winning 7 slams in 2.25 years means only that you will win 1 or 2 slams in the next 2.25 years. Big deal ....


Connolly:
Won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King:
Won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova:
Won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf:
Won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams:
Won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis:
Won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 03:18 PM
HERE is how far they were apart: MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIPS

SELES WON_______________ GRAF WON

1990 WTA Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 WTA Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
_________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 WTA Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open


Yes, but what would have been in the next 2.25 years?
Would Seles have won more than 1.4 slams (the average of other greats who had successful slam runs before)?
I doubt that because Seles was slowly gaining weight anyway ....

Borat72
08-11-2007, 03:21 PM
You mean Seles was 16, 17, 18 and 19 --- and Graf was 20, 21, 22 and 23 --- when Seles was the CLEAR #1 player in women's tennis in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993? ...

In 1990 Graf was the CLEAR #1. She was 74 points ahead of Seles at the end of the year (Seles's maximum lead in later years was 58 pts.).

In 1991 Graf was still #1 in September during the USO.

In 1992 Seles was #1 during the whole year.

In 1993 Graf was #1 mostly.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 03:32 PM
Health is a part of the game ... the better players try to stay healthy for a reason .. of course, there are times when the best players are stabbed in the back with a knife so that lesser players can have a chance to win ... but those occasions, fortunately, are very rare in the sport.

I'd like to agree with you.
But I can't get over the fact that there were seven female tennis greats post-WW2 with comparable successful slams runs as Seles in 1991-93.
And they won only 1.4 slams in the 2.25 years after those runs ....

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 03:37 PM
Folks who say a stabbing is different and want to play "what if" with the record books. What if Seles had not been stabbed. Instead she suffered a severe and recurring injury running after a shot in practice a week later, maybe needing surgery and then another surgery a la Austin. How many of Graf's titles post Seles injury do we steal or and hand over? how many weeks at number one do we take away. Do we just sneer at Graf's results and remind the world that they are all tainted? The effect on the books is exactly the same. Graf wins, Seles looses just like Evert/ Navratilova win while Jaeger/Austin loose. There is zero difference in impact on the books,seedings, etc.

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 03:54 PM
It just seems unfair to isolate Fate to Graf/Seles debate. What if Lenglen had had to meet Wills more often? How lucky for many of these contestants for GOAT when WW2 shut down three of four slams right in the middle of Brough's great years. Molla Mallory had no chance at immortality thanks to WW1. Or that Gibson happened to be black leaving her excluded from seriously competing for GOAT. Or that Connally was injured in her prime. How unfair to Navratilova that the US championship was changed from grass. How lucky for Evert that it changed to clay for 3 years before going hard making up for lost French titles . Or fortunate for Seles the AO changed to hard courts.

BTURNER
08-11-2007, 08:14 PM
Graf would not have 'earned' the titles, or any more respect if it had been a multiple fracture or a painful back that had kept Seles out or a bout with cancer rather than a violent act. She should not earn any less either.

Borat72
08-11-2007, 10:03 PM
Graf would not have 'earned' the titles, or any more respect if it had been a multiple fracture or a painful back that had kept Seles out or a bout with cancer rather than a violent act. She should not earn any less either.

And don't forget that winning 7 of 9 slams in a short time doesn't mean a lot on how much you will win after that.
Connolly, Court, King, Navratilova, Graf, Hingis, S. Williams had successful slam streaks comparable to Seles in 1991-93. But only Navratilova managed to win more than 2 slams in the 2.25 years AFTER that streak (5).

CEvertFan
08-12-2007, 12:09 AM
It's precisely because the act that took Seles out of the game was so completely unnatural that some people feel that Graf had the road made easy for her to win those extra titles and weeks at #1. Injuries, illnesses etc are totally natural, unlike being attacked with a knife for the sole purpose of taking one out of the way of her main rival. There is no doubt that Steffi isn't personally to blame at all for what happened to Seles and I know she felt really badly about the whole thing, but it's also clear that she benefitted to an unprecedented degree without Seles there. Also it's perfectly clear that Graf is one of the all time greatest women's players ever to have played tennis and it's sad that her record is tainted because of the actions of a madman.

Comparing the loss of Austin and Jaeger to the loss of Seles is in my opinion not the same at all because Evert and Navratilova still had one another to contend with, (two all time greats I might add) even after injuries contributed to the slow decline of both Jaeger and Austin, whereas the stabbing of Seles took her immediately out of the game and left Graf without anyone who could seriously and consistently challenge her, although Sanchez-Vicario did in fact take her best shot at it.

federerfanatic
08-12-2007, 12:20 AM
Why does Jaeger even come into the conversation? Austin I could see, but Jaeger? She had proven nothing. She had reached 2 slam finals, losing both in straight sets to Navratilova. I have seen her on tape and she isnt that good, even for the time. She is quite good, but not that good.

I wouldnt be surprised if she never ended up winning a slam even had she not suffered burnout, since she didnt look strong enough to me to beat 2 or 3 in a row of any combination of Navratilova, Evert, Mandlikova, and later on Graf, Seles, Sanchez Vicario. She could beat 1 of them occasionaly, usually when they had a real off day, but that was it. She sure as heck was never an all time great in the making, there was no chance of that.

Borat72
08-12-2007, 02:39 AM
It's precisely because the act that took Seles out of the game was so completely unnatural that some people feel that Graf had the road made easy for her to win those extra titles and weeks at #1. Injuries, illnesses etc are totally natural, unlike being attacked with a knife for the sole purpose of taking one out of the way of her main rival. There is no doubt that Steffi isn't personally to blame at all for what happened to Seles and I know she felt really badly about the whole thing, but it's also clear that she benefitted to an unprecedented degree without Seles there. ...

Graf won her slams fair and square.
Seles winning 7 of 9 slams before the stabbing doesn't mean a lot.

Connolly won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Navratilova won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


1.4 slams on average in the next 2.25 years. The time Seles was out because of the stabbing. Do you want to tell me that Seles would have been better than those greats?
Please ..... :D :D :D

FedSampras
08-12-2007, 10:47 AM
We must not forget that almost no other player had so many injuries, illness and had to endure so many bizarre off-court distractions as Graf.


The stabbing only gave Graff about half her slam titles. If Gunther Parche thought she was just in a slump he wouldn't have had to try and kill Seles. Clearly her most ardent supporter thought she was finished and washed up as she appeared to be to everyone, not even getting to the finals anymore. She was solidly eclipsed by the new #1 Seles and she was doing a fast slide losing confidence by the day. Her jealous and bitter fanatics are forever required to deny reality to continue believing the illusion that she's done so well. In addition she won many early titles in years when there was a huge gap--Navratilova and Evert were fading and there was not much new talent on the rise, Sabatini eventually becoming her only rival. Navratilova and Evert won almost as many titles as Graff with tougher competition facing each other and without the benefit of having their main rival stabbed and removed from the scene. They are unquestionably greater than Graff who was pretty much of a one-trick pony which makes it hilarious to see some people calling her a complete player or WORST... GOAT . :D

Her jacked-up, fake record will be more readily admitted to as the years go by. :D :D :D

FedSampras
08-12-2007, 10:49 AM
And don't forget that winning 7 of 9 slams in a short time doesn't mean a lot on how much you will win after that.


The only "analysis" that is useful is one that shows the obvious - Seles was #1 and had been for 2 ++ years. Everything else is just GraFan blather.

FedSampras
08-12-2007, 10:51 AM
Graf won her slams fair and square.
Seles winning 7 of 9 slams before the stabbing doesn't mean a lot.



Graff can only do it on "grass" against Seles before the stabber showed up. Just imagine how many FO MN might have won if someone have stabbed 7 time FO champ C Evert.

The problem is that from the moment Graff's German fan stabbed Seles in the back to make Graff #1, every Graff win requires an asterisk. Graff's wins belong to two categories.

1) The first category includes Graff wins prior to the time Graff's German fan stabbed Seles in the back.

2) The second category includes Graff wins after the time Graf's German fan stabbed Seles in the back. These can be discarded.:D :D :D

FedSampras
08-12-2007, 10:54 AM
1.4 slams on average in the next 2.25 years. The time Seles was out because of the stabbing. Do you want to tell me that Seles would have been better than those greats?
Please ..... :D :D :D

Graff got undeserved wins at the point of the KNIFE and no amount of dancing around it will ever make it go away.:)

Warriorroger
08-12-2007, 11:23 AM
Graff got undeserved wins at the point of the KNIFE and no amount of dancing around it will ever make it go away.:)


What I don't understand is that someone like you can post and post. Condi was a lunatic, you are just as bad and no moderator does anything about it. Bit unfair. Would you like someone to talk to, I can help you if you want. Take care, hope someone cares for you.

Borat72
08-12-2007, 12:01 PM
The stabbing only gave Graff about half her slam titles. ....

But who would have won those 11 titles?
I couldn't have been Seles.
Don't forget that she most probably would have won only 1 slam in the 2.25 years she missed due to the stabbing.

These 6 greats won only 0.8 slams on average in the 2.25 years after their great slam runs:

Connolly won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.

Court won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

BJ King won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.

Graf won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

S. Williams won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.

Hingis won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.


What makes you think a player who never managed to have a season with less than 5 losses could have been better than those greats?

Borat72
08-12-2007, 12:05 PM
The only "analysis" that is useful is one that shows the obvious - Seles was #1 and had been for 2 ++ years. Everything else is just GraFan blather.

I'd love to agree with you.
But I just can't get over the fact that having a great 2-year slam run as Seles had from January 1991 to January 1993 obviously doesn't mean anything if we want to know what she would have won in the next 2.25 years.
Just have a look at this!

Connolly won 8 of 9 slams between July 1952 and July 1954.
Never won a slam after that.
Court won 8 of 9 slams between January 69 and January 71.
Won only 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.
BJ King won 5 of 8 slams between September 71 and July 73.
Won 2 slams in the next 2.25 years.
Navratilova won 7 of 9 slams between July 83 and July 85.
Won 5 slams in the next 2.25 years.
Graf won 8 of 9 slams between January 1988 and January 1990.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.
S. Williams won 5 of 6 slams between June 2002 and July 2003.
Won 1 slam in the next 2.25 years.
Hingis won 5 of 9 slams between January 1997 and January 1999.
Never won a slam again.

ATPballkid
08-12-2007, 12:13 PM
I'd love to agree with you.
But I just can't get over the fact that having a great 2-year slam run as Seles had from January 1991 to January 1993 obviously doesn't mean anything if we want to know what she would have won in the next 2.25 years.
Just have a look at this!



When Graf was in her 20s there was a teenager who was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis during the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 while winning 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments between November 1990 and January 1993 before the young teenager was stabbed in the back with a knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

ATPballkid
08-12-2007, 12:20 PM
But who would have won those 11 titles?
I couldn't have been Seles.


Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. That would leave Steffi with 14.

Monica Seles was never the player after her return that she was before the stabbing ... and anybody who has paid attention to tennis in these last 15 years would know that. The only Slam that Graf had a good chance of winning with Seles in the form she was in during those years 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing was Wimbledon .. so, a good argument could be made that Graf at her best and Seles at her best throughout the 1990s would have brought Graf only a total of 14 Slam -- the 9 Slams Graf won before Seles' dominance began + the 5 Wimbledons Graf won after Seles' dominance began.

ATPballkid
08-12-2007, 12:23 PM
Would you like someone to talk to, I can help you if you want. Take care, hope someone cares for you.

You are one desperate little pup, aren't you?

ATPballkid
08-12-2007, 12:28 PM
What makes you think a player who never managed to have a season with less than 5 losses could have been better than those greats?

Condi, it took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

the green god
08-12-2007, 08:14 PM
A BUNCH OF SAD LONELY PEOPLE. where do you find the time to play tennis at what i am guessing is a very low level.

Warriorroger
08-12-2007, 11:47 PM
You are one desperate little pup, aren't you?

You need help, why don't you pm me, I will help you.

Borat72
08-13-2007, 09:41 AM
When Graf was in her 20s there was a teenager who was clearly the #1 player in women's tennis during the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 while winning 9 of the 11 biggest singles tournaments between November 1990 and January 1993 before the young teenager was stabbed in the back with a knife by a Steffi Graf fan.

Yes, true.
But the usual two-year run (many great have had) had come to an end for Seles. 7 of 9 slams is not bad. But all evidence shows that Seles most probably would have won only 1 or maybe 2 slams in the time frame when she was out due to stabbing. Those slams certainly would have been at the expense of Pierce, Sanchez types. Not Graf. Peak Graf was simply too good for Seles. When Graf had her peak years (1988/89 and 95/96) Seles was 0-5 H2H against the German.

Borat72
08-13-2007, 09:44 AM
Steffi won 11 Slams since the stabbing of Monica Seles.

Take away the ones she had not been able to win with Seles competing before having her career devastated by the knife of one of Graf's fans and you only have 3 since Seles was stabbed. ....

But what makes you think Seles would have won AO, FO and USO? :confused:
Don't forget that winning 3 slams in row only means that you have a 20 % chance to win a 4th consecutive title. And this doesn't factor in that you have the GOAT (being out of her slump) as main opponent.

Borat72
08-13-2007, 09:45 AM
Condi, it took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

:-D :-D
That's nonsense.

Borat72
08-13-2007, 09:46 AM
You need help, why don't you pm me, I will help you.

Are you crazy? :confused:

Warriorroger
08-13-2007, 10:00 AM
Are you crazy? :confused:

No Borat, be kind, that poster is sick, I want to help him.

FedSampras
08-13-2007, 02:45 PM
Condi, it took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

Luckily for Graff and Parche (also known as Warriorroger???:) ), they benefited from an absence of competition with there being no other real contender besides Seles, otherwise Parche would have needed to stab multiple people to inflate his girl's record. Now what if Andre's fan had stabbed Pete. The Graf-Agassi household would REALLY have superinflated numbers.

Seriously though, we have to be very grateful that out of all the players through all the decades only Graff had such a PATHOLOGICAL SICK FAN.

FedSampras
08-13-2007, 02:52 PM
No Borat, be kind, that poster is sick, I want to help him.

Everyone around here knows you are an obsessive GraFan, but Graff does not need a R***** to defend her.

FedSampras
08-13-2007, 03:13 PM
But what makes you think Seles would have won AO, FO and USO? :confused:


look, it's not rocket science: seles was 3-time defending FO champ, 3-time defending AO champ, and 2-time defending USO champ. Graff hadn't won any of those in 4 years and had lost to seles every time they played at those slams during that time. then, as soon as seles is stabbed, Graff then wins the USO, the AO, and the FO all within the next 8 months.

anyone who can't see the obvious cause-effect there is an imb*cile.:D :D :D

ATPballkid
08-13-2007, 04:57 PM
Yes, true.
But the usual two-year run (many great have had) had come to an end for Seles. 7 of 9 slams is not bad.

Yes, Seles was very, very dominant in those years --- winning 10 of the 12 biggest titles in women's tennis in those 2.5 years between October 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993.

Seles was the only player between January 1, 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 to win more than 1 of the 5 biggest singles titles in 1990, 1991 and 1992 (she won 2 of the 5 biggest in 1990 ... and then 4 of the 5 biggest singles titles in women's tennis in both 1991 and 1992) ... then, of course, she beat Graf in the final round of the 1993 Australian Open to start that year off right too ... that is, until a Steffi Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a knife in April 1993.

ATPballkid
08-13-2007, 05:01 PM
When Graf had her peak years (1988/89 and 95/96) Seles was 0-5 H2H against the German.

Not between January 1990 and the stabbing of Seles in the spring of 1993 ... Graf had a losing record in those 40 months vs. both Seles and Navratilova.

Warriorroger
08-14-2007, 10:50 AM
Everyone around here knows you are an obsessive GraFan, but Graff does not need a R***** to defend her.


I want to help you to, PM as well.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 11:14 AM
Luckily for Graff and Parche (also known as Warriorroger???:) ), they benefited from an absence of competition with there being no other real contender besides Seles, otherwise Parche would have needed to stab multiple people to inflate his girl's record. Now what if Andre's fan had stabbed Pete. The Graf-Agassi household would REALLY have superinflated numbers.

Seriously though, we have to be very grateful that out of all the players through all the decades only Graff had such a PATHOLOGICAL SICK FAN.

But Seles has a lot of them!
FedSampras, ATPKid, to name the worst.

BTW, Sampras beat Agassi in 4 slam finals, 90 USO, 95 USO, 99 Wimbledon and 02 USO. Even assuming Sampras would have been out for 2.25 years after a stabbing (like Seles) I don't know how Agassi would have won more than 1 additional slam ....

Borat72
08-14-2007, 11:17 AM
look, it's not rocket science: seles was 3-time defending FO champ, 3-time defending AO champ,

I'd love to agree with you.
But I just can't ignore the fact that only 3 of 16 female players who had won one of the slams three times in a row post-WW2 managed to win a fourth cousecutive title.
That is less than 20 % .....

So most probably Graf would have won FO 93 and AO 94 anyway.
Look, that really is no rocket science. It's basic logic.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 11:20 AM
Yes, Seles was very, very dominant in those years --- winning 10 of the 12 biggest titles in women's tennis in those 2.5 years between October 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993. ....


Yes, but Graf won 3 of 5 matches against Seles even in that period.
And everybody know that Steffi was FAR better post-93.
So she would have won at least 4 of the next 5 matches against Seles.
It is really no rocket science ....

Borat72
08-14-2007, 11:25 AM
Not between January 1990 and the stabbing of Seles in the spring of 1993 ... Graf had a losing record in those 40 months vs. both Seles and Navratilova.


Peak Graf was 4-0 vs. a considerably younger Navratilova in 1988/89, though.
Tells us a lot how peak Graf would have destroyed peak Seles ....

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 01:48 PM
I'd love to agree with you.
But I just can't ignore the fact that only 3 of 16 female players who had won one of the slams three times in a row post-WW2 managed to win a fourth cousecutive title.
.

Monica Seles was stabbed by a Steffi Graf fan in Hamburg, Germany in the spring of 1993 because Monica Seles was #1 in women's tennis.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 01:50 PM
Peak Graf

Steffi Graf was pretty good ... as far as women tennis players go. The problem with Steffi Graf is twofold:

1. She had 2 or 3 great years before losing her #1 ranking until a jealous fan of hers stabbed Monica Seles in the back to reclaim any semblance of #1 again.

2. Even with the stabbing of the red hot Monica Seles in the spring of 1993, Graf STILL did not establish any significant all-time records in women's tennis other than the most U.S. Opens on hardcourts ... the most weeks ranked #1 on the WTA computer rankings ... and the one for having won each Slam 4 times (all of which would have, naturally, been less likely if Seles had not been been stabbed by one of Graf's fans).

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 02:20 PM
And everybody know that Steffi was FAR better post-93.
It is really no rocket science ....

If Monica Seles as a teenager had won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1990 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1991 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1992 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win a women's singles title at a Grand Slam at the time of the stabbing in 1993 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player that was ever stabbed in the back by a Steffi Graf fan .... then HOW can you suggest that Seles as a player was in any way inferior to Steffi Graf?

NadalandFedererfan
08-14-2007, 04:03 PM
Seles was definitely the better player in the early 90s. An equaly great forehand combined with a far better backhand. An equaly great serve combined with a far greater return of serve. Almost as great of overall movement, combined with better defensive skills with the raquet once reaching a ball. A stronger mental game, combined with superior court smarts. Graf volleyed better, but she hardly came to the net so she didnt take advantage of this, making it moot.

NadalandFedererfan
08-14-2007, 04:09 PM
Isnt the topic of this thread Navratilova vs Graf, instead of Seles vs Graf though? Well getting on the topic of this thread, it is a pretty clear answer.

Navratilova retired at 37 years old, Graf was 25 when Navratilova retired. Navratilova despite playing two-thirds of her matches with Graf in her 30s, and being 12 and half years older was still able to end her career with a 9-9 head to head. Yeah I wonder who is better, there really is alot of doubt when Graf only won half of her matches vs a much older player who was playing most of their matches as an elder stateswomen, NOT! Remember a 30 year old Navratilova kicking Graf's butt in straight sets in the Wimbledon and U.S Open finals in the same year, pretty embarassing for a so called great to not even get 1 set off a 30 year old in the combined finals of the two biggest events in the Worlds. Then remember a 34 year old Navratilova taking out Graf as the #1 seed in the semis of the 91 U.S Open, major ouch!

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:01 PM
If Monica Seles as a teenager had won 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between the end of 1990 and the stabbing ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 2 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1990 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1991 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win 4 of the 5 biggest events in women's tennis in 1992 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player to win a women's singles title at a Grand Slam at the time of the stabbing in 1993 ... and if Monica Seles as a teenager was the ONLY player that was ever stabbed in the back by a Steffi Graf fan .... then HOW can you suggest that Seles as a player was in any way inferior to Steffi Graf?

Maybe by looking at the slam numbers (22 for Graf, only 9 for Seles), the Wimbledon titles (7 for Graf, zero for Seles), the years as #1 (Graf 8, Seles only 2), at the head-to-head (10-5 for Graf) and especially at the head-to-head when Seles was #1 (5-2 for Graf)?
Or maybe even the weeks as #1?
Or the prize money?
Or at the years with a winning percentage higher than 93.5 % (Graf 6, Seles zero)?

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:03 PM
Seles was definitely the better player in the early 90s. An equaly great forehand ....

:-D :-D :-D :-D

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:09 PM
Isnt the topic of this thread Navratilova vs Graf, instead of Seles vs Graf though? Well getting on the topic of this thread, it is a pretty clear answer.

Navratilova retired at 37 years old, Graf was 25 when Navratilova retired. Navratilova despite playing two-thirds of her matches with Graf in her 30s, and being 12 and half years older was still able to end her career with a 9-9 head to head. ....

They played only 2 of those 18 matches on slow surfaces.
Navratilova stopped playing tournaments on clay and ReboundAce in 1988 (at age 31) to avoid being trounced by Graf.

Same as if Graf had stopped playing on slow surfaces in 1989. Her head-to-head against Seles would be 7-0 today instead of a dismal 10-5 ....

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:22 PM
Maybe by looking at the slam numbers

You mean Seles was 16, 17, 18 and 19 --- and Graf was 20, 21, 22 and 23 --- when Seles was the CLEAR #1 player in women's tennis in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993?

CLEAR ??

Sure. CLEAR.

This clear:

___ MONICA SELES_______________ STEFFI GRAF

1990 Tour Championships
1991 Australian Open
1991 French Open
__________________________________ 1991 Wimbledon
1991 U.S. Open
1991 Tour Championships
1992 Australian Open
1992 French Open
___________________________________ 1992 Wimbledon
1992 U.S. Open
1992 Tour Championships
1993 Australian Open
April 30 - Germany stabbing

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:24 PM
the years with a winning percentage higher than 93.5 % (Graf 6, Seles zero)?

Not with her hands tied behind ---- no, wait a minute --- not with a KNIFE stabbed into her back by a jealous Graf fan. Why was the knife stabbing in Monica Seles' back so necessary anyway?

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:26 PM
Same as if Graf had stopped playing on slow surfaces in 1989.

Graf had NOT ranked #1 for as many weeks as Seles by the time Graf had played 10 singles matches vs. Navratilova.

When Graf was the age that Seles was when Seles was stabbed in April 1993 (19 years, 5 months) Graf had won just 5 Grand Slam singles titles and 1 WTA Tour Championship:

ACCOMPLISHMENTS BY THE TIME THEY WERE STABBED
(or of an age Graf fans feel is acceptable for a stabbing)

19 years, 5 months:

Seles .. 11 major singles titles
Graf .... 6 major singles titles

Seles: 3 French, 3 Australian, 3 WTA and 2 U.S. Opens.
Graf: 2 French and once each at the 4 other big events.

Seles was 4-6 vs. Graf.
Graf was 3-7 vs. Navratilova.

Seles had won 2 major titles in 1990 .. 4 major titles in 1991 .. 4 major titles in 1992 .. and the only major title in 1993 when she was stabbed.

Graf had won 0 major titles in 1985 .. 0 major titles in 1986 .. 2 major titles in 1987 .. and 4 major titles in 1988 when she was the age Seles was when Seles was stabbed.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:40 PM
You mean Seles was 16, 17, 18 and 19 --- and Graf was 20, 21, 22 and 23 --- when Seles was the CLEAR #1 player in women's tennis in those years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993?

CLEAR ??

Sure. CLEAR.
....

In 1990 and 1993 Graf was the clear #1.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:41 PM
In 1990 and 1993 Graf was the clear #1.

NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:46 PM
Graf had NOT ranked #1 for as many weeks as Seles by the time Graf had played 10 singles matches vs. Navratilova.

When Graf was the age that Seles was when Seles was stabbed in April 1993 (19 years, 5 months) Graf had won ....

.... the Golden Grand Slam and the biggest lead ever in the WTA rankings.

Graf was very successfull, too, as a twen. She won 16 slams between age 20 and 29. Seles only 1.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:49 PM
When Graf had her peak years (1988/89 Seles was against the German.


Here we have Graf with her PEAK years being 1988 and 1989 .. then, Seles comes in at the age of 16 in 1990 and DOMINATED women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early to middle part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed her in the back with a knife.

So ... no, Seles did not dominate women's tennis during the 2 years Steffi was in her short prime (1988-1989) when Seles was only 14 and 15 years of age. HOWEVER, beginning when Seles was only 16 years of age in November 1990 -- and running through the early to mid part of 1993 before a jealous Graf fan stabbed Seles in the back with a knife -- the teenage Seles brought an end to the PEAK years for Graf while winning 10 of the 12 biggest events in women's tennis between November 1990 and January 1993.

Seems the PEAK years for Graf were the ones when Seles was not playing and when Evert and Navratilova were over 30 years of age.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:51 PM
NOPE .... a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles, the undisputed #1 player in women's tennis at that time and winner of 10 of the previous 12 biggest titles in women's tennis (LITERALLY every major singles title from the Grand Slam events and WTA Tour Championships between November 1990 and the stabbing in April 1993 with the exception of Wimbledon).

Yes, that was Seles's best time.
In which she was 2-3 head-to-head against Graf, though.
Tells us everything ...

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:52 PM
Navratilova stopped playing tournaments on clay and ReboundAce in 1988 (at age 31)

sure, Navratilova still played well past her prime ... sure, Navratilova got to the quarters or better at 20 consecutive Wimbledons (vs. only 10 consecutive for Graf) ... sure, Navratilova made the final round of Wimbledon in 9 consecutive years while winning WImbledon in 6 consecutive Wimbledons (vs. only 3 consecutive years for Graf) ... sure, Navratilova won her last Grand Slam match vs. Graf when Navratilova was older than Andre Agassi was in 2004 ... sure, Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf during the years 1990-1993 ... sure, Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events ... sure, Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships ... sure, Navratilova won more WTA Tour singles and doubles titles than Graf ... sure, Navratilova was the top female tennis player of the 1980s decade.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 05:55 PM
Here we have Graf with her PEAK years being 1988 and 1989 .. then, Seles comes in at the age of 16 in 1990 and DOMINATED women's tennis from the end of 1990 through the early to middle part of 1993 ...

... but was 2-3 head-to-head against Graf.

And we must not forget that one of Seles's wins was a 10-8 in third set only while two of Graf's wins were real thrashings (including the single most important match they eve played) ....

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 05:58 PM
... but was 2-3 head-to-head against Graf.



Steffi had a bigger problem getting far enough to play Monica. Seles was always winning the singles titles by beating the players who had beaten Graf in the semis or quarters.

Of course, Steffi had problems vs. both Navratilova and Seles by having a losing record to the 30-something Navratilova (33-36 in the years 1990-1993) and the young teenage #1 named Seles.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 06:01 PM
sure, Navratilova still played well past her prime ... sure, Navratilova got to the quarters or better at 20 consecutive Wimbledons (vs. only 10 consecutive for Graf) ... sure, Navratilova made the final round of Wimbledon in 9 consecutive years while winning WImbledon in 6 consecutive Wimbledons (vs. only 3 consecutive years for Graf) ... sure, Navratilova won her last Grand Slam match vs. Graf when Navratilova was older than Andre Agassi was in 2004 ... sure, Navratilova had a winning record vs. Graf during the years 1990-1993 ... sure, Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events ... sure, Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in the WTA Tour Championships ... sure, Navratilova won more WTA Tour singles and doubles titles than Graf ... sure, Navratilova was the top female tennis player of the 1980s decade.

But I can't get over the fact that Graf has 22 slams and Navratilova only 18.
And that Graf has a grand slam and Navratilova not.
And that Graf has more years and weeks as #1.

Slams, grand slam, time as #1 favour Graf.
Doubles titles etc. favour Navratilova, though.
Hard choice indeed ....:D :D :D

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:05 PM
.... the Golden Grand Slam

There was no Seles in 1988. There were 2 aging legends who had been playing on the WTA Tour for 15 years, but when Seles started winning at the end of 1990 there was no stopping her without a knife.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 06:07 PM
Steffi had a bigger problem getting far enough to play Monica. Seles was always winning the singles titles by beating the players who had beaten Graf in the semis or quarters.

Of course, Steffi had problems vs. both Navratilova and Seles by having a losing record to the 30-something Navratilova (33-36 in the years 1990-1993) and the young teenage #1 named Seles.


Steffi had problems making the important finals from summer 1990 until end of 1992 only (only 4 of 12 major finals). Otherwise she made about 90 % or those finals (in 1987-90 and 93-96).

Yes, and Steffi had a losing record against a 34/36-year-old Navratilova.
But a winning record against a 29/33-year-old Martina.

Both facts show us how deep Graf was slumping in the early 1990s.
No wonder the second-best player profited from that the most.
What did you expect?

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:08 PM
... but was 2-3 head-to-head against Graf.

And we must not forget that one of Seles's wins was a 10-8.

First of all, WHO WON THIS 1992 FRENCH OPEN FINAL? The same girl who won the 1990 and the 1991 French Open finals? She was stabbed at the end of April in 1993.

So in the ABSENCE of this 3-time defending champion (the teenage phenom, Monica Seles) ... who benefitted from the stabbing of Monica Seles by winning the 1993 French Open final?

Borat72
08-14-2007, 06:12 PM
There was no Seles in 1988. There were 2 aging legends who had been playing on the WTA Tour for 15 years, but when Seles started winning at the end of 1990 there was no stopping her without a knife.

Don't forget that Chris Evert had a better winning percentage in the 12 months before her loss to 16-year-old Graf on Hilton Head Island in 1986(Evert never beat Graf again!) than Seles had in the 12 months before the stabbing.

And that Navratilova had a 67-match winning streak in 1989/90 against players not named Graf. Seles never managed anything similar.

So Evert in 1986 and Navratilova in 1989 were better than peak Seles ever was.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:14 PM
But a winning record against a 29/33-year-old Martina.



In your little dream world, maybe ... Navratilova and Graf were 9-9 for their careers and Navratilova had the edge head-to-head in the years 1990-1993 well past Navratilova's prime and in the years that Graf SHOULD have been winning as easily vs. Navratilova was beating Graf before 1988.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 06:14 PM
First of all, WHO WON THIS 1992 FRENCH OPEN FINAL? The same girl who won the 1990 and the 1991 French Open finals? She was stabbed at the end of April in 1993.

So in the ABSENCE of this 3-time defending champion (the teenage phenom, Monica Seles) ... who benefitted from the stabbing of Monica Seles by winning the 1993 French Open final?

Only 3 of 16 three-time-defending women champs managed to win a 4th in a row.
Less than 20 % ....

What makes you think that a weight-gaining Seles would have done it?

Borat72
08-14-2007, 06:20 PM
In your little dream world, maybe ... Navratilova and Graf were 9-9 for their careers and Navratilova had the edge head-to-head in the years 1990-1993 ...

Graf had the edge against Navratilova in 1986-1989, though.

Graf was obviously not at her peak in 90-93.
Which nicely explains why Seles was #1 in 1991 and 1992.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:22 PM
What makes you think that a weight-gaining Seles would have done it?

Seles came on to win 11 out of 15 of the major singles titles in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing ... and someone needed to open the door back up for Graf ... Gunther Parche did that.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:26 PM
Graf had the edge against Navratilova in 1986-1989, though.



Navratilova was 9-9 vs. Graf for their career (Navatilova's career began in 1973 and she was in her 14th year on the WTA Tour before she had a loss to Graf (which moved her back to 3-1 vs. Graf) ... and she was in her 15th year on the WTA Tour before she had her first loss to Graf at a Slam).

Navratilova never had a losing record vs. Graf even once in her career. Yes, Graf won 4 in those years 1988 and 1989 (Navratiova's 16th and 17th year on the WTA Tour) but Navratilova never had a losing record vs. Graf at any point in her career overall.

Then, amazingly, Navratilova had a winning record (just as Monica Seles did as well) vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993 until Seles was stabbed in the back by a Graf fan in Hamburg, Germany at the end of April in 1993.

Here we have Martina Navratilova with a winning record vs. Graf in her 19th, 20th and 21st years on the WTA Tour ... talk about longevity ... in women's tennis for the Open Era this begins and ends with Martina Navratilova. Here is Navratilova at the age of 34, 35, 36 and 37 with a winning record in the 1990s vs. Graf in the years 1990-1993 ... and this was 2, 3, 4 and 5 years after Graf had won the Grand Slam (so it is not as if Graf was just coming into her own).

Plus, Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in Grand Slam events (5-4) and Navratilova had the winning record vs. Graf in WTA Tour Championships (2-1).

What? Can you not read, boy

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:28 PM
Don't forget that Chris Evert had a better winning percentage in the 12 months before her loss to 16-year-old Graf

Right .. Graf would never have the record Navratilova had at Wimbledon on the grass, or indoors at the WTA Tour Championships, or in the doubles ... and Graf would never have the record Evert had at the French Open, on clay and in terms of her consistency in winning at least 1 Slam in 13 consecutive years.

Graf was more of a blend .. not as good as Evert on the clay or in terms of consistency year after year ... not as good as Navratilova on grass, indoors or in dominating in her very best years in singles and doubles.

Graf was kind of in between the two .. balanced .. and a fan knocked the #1 player in the world out for her back sticking a sharp knife in her back while they were at an event in Hamburg, Germany.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:35 PM
But I can't get over the fact that Graf has 22 slams and Navratilova only 18.
And that Graf has more years and weeks as #1.

..:D :D :D

Condi, it took a Graf fan in Germany and a knife from his hand into the back of Monica Seles for Graf to be able to win much of anything other than Wimbledon in the early 1990s after Monica Seles had settled into her dominance.

Do you think Evert and Navratilova relied on their fans stabbing each other in the back with knives for them to have success?

Navratilova has the all-time record for most Wimbledons.
Mallory has the all-time record for most U.S. Nationals.
Evert has the all-time record for most U.S. Opens.
Evert has the all-time record for most French titles.
Court has the all-time record for most Australian titles.
Navratilova has the record for most WTA Championships.
Wills Moody has the all-time record for most years at #1.
Wills Moody has the record for most Slams on grass.
Evert has the all-time record for most Slams on clay.

Graf had a very balanced resume after Seles was out.

Graf's records are in areas where the other players did not have their entire careers available:

• most hardcourt Slams.
• most U.S. Opens on hardcourts.
• most weeks ranked #1.

ATPballkid
08-14-2007, 06:38 PM
Don't forget that Chris Evert had a better winning percentage in the 12 months before her loss to 16-year-old Graf on Hilton Head Island in 1986(Evert never beat Graf again!) .

Evert's all-time record 13 consecutive years winning a Grand Slam title had run from 1974-1986. Tough to sustain that after that long on the WTA Tour.

Yeah ... also interesting that in the years 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 until one of the jealous Graf fans decided to plant a sharp knife into the back of Monica Seles on a changeover in Germany, the head-to-head records vs. Steffi Graf for both Martina Navratilova and Monica Seles had Graf losing to both of these players -- and Navratilova was in her 18th, 19th, 20th and 21st years on the tour in those years.

FedSampras
08-14-2007, 06:48 PM
Evert never beat Graf again!

Ah common, GraFan, Graff didn't beat Evert until 1986, when Evert was, what 31 years old? :D :D :D

And the majority of Graff's victories against Evert were in 1987-1989, Evert's last years on the tour.... Statistically speaking, it's pretty obvious that from 87 through 89 Evert had definitely slowed down (her winning percentage, titles, GS performance, etc, etc) and was past her peak. She never won another GS after 1986 FO and she made only one GS final (1988 AO.) the last three years of her career....

Having said that, during one of Graff's *peak* years (1989) Evert took her to 3 sets in a final, not bad for a 34 year old veteran on her last legs...against a 19 year old GERM champ*....:D

BTURNER
08-14-2007, 07:11 PM
Navratilova with ALL those extra years got only 18 slams with half played on GRASS her favorite surface. Navratilova gained number one in '78 lost it to Evert In 80 , gained it and lost it to Austin, gained it and lost it to Evert in 85, gained 6 months later, and lost it again in to Graf '88. That's not that impressive. 3 women took the number one position away from her. Her opponents did not get stabbed. They just waited for her to falter, which she did.

BTURNER
08-14-2007, 07:15 PM
Navratilova has a grand total of 6 slams on anything other than grass. Evert has 8 total on anything other than clay. Graf has 12 on anything other than hard courts.

BTURNER
08-14-2007, 07:19 PM
Does anyone believe Martina would have gotten ANY those with Austin around younger, fresher and improving each and every year?

CEvertFan
08-14-2007, 07:26 PM
Graf had the edge against Navratilova in 1986-1989, though.

Graf was obviously not at her peak in 90-93.
Which nicely explains why Seles was #1 in 1991 and 1992.

It's precisely for that very reason that I don't give Graf GOAT status. A woman with that much talent and drive who was in her prime and who was considered to be the best ever (even better than Navratilova and Evert) should not have been that unsuccessful during the '90-'93 period. Consistency and longevity count for a lot. Ask Evert and Navratilova about longevity and consistency. ;)


Combine that with Graf's sadly tainted record and there is no justification for giving her GOAT status.

CEvertFan
08-14-2007, 07:30 PM
Does anyone believe Martina would have gotten ANY those with Austin around younger, fresher and improving each and every year?


If you think Austin was better than Evert then you are mistaken. I think Chris proved that she was the better player in the 1980 US Open semis.

I'm not saying that Austin was a pushover because she wasn't, but no tennis expert ranks Austin as better than Evert and I am talking about talent and skill, not records. If the experts say anything about Austin, it was that she was almost the perfect Evert clone. Almost.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 09:56 PM
Seles came on to win 11 out of 15 of the major singles titles in 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1993 before the stabbing ... and someone needed to open the door back up for Graf ... Gunther Parche did that.

Er, Graf made only about 30 % of major finals between summer 90 and end of 93.
But more than 90 % in the years before and after that time frame.

What exactly had the Seles stabbing to do with that?
Right - nothing.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 10:00 PM
Ah common, GraFan, Graff didn't beat Evert until 1986, when Evert was, what 31 years old? :D :D :D

And the majority of Graff's victories against Evert were in 1987-1989, Evert's last years on the tour.... Statistically speaking, it's pretty obvious that from 87 through 89 Evert had definitely slowed down (her winning percentage, titles, GS performance, etc, etc) and was past her peak. She never won another GS after 1986 FO and she made only one GS final (1988 AO.) the last three years of her career....

Having said that, during one of Graff's *peak* years (1989) Evert took her to 3 sets in a final, not bad for a 34 year old veteran on her last legs...against a 19 year old GERM champ*....:D


But in the 12 months before her loss against Graf in April 86 Evert had a better winning record than Seles in the 12 months before the stabbing ...

Borat72
08-14-2007, 10:06 PM
Navratilova with ALL those extra years got only 18 slams with half played on GRASS her favorite surface. Navratilova gained number one in '78 lost it to Evert In 80 , gained it and lost it to Austin, gained it and lost it to Evert in 85, gained 6 months later, and lost it again in to Graf '88. That's not that impressive. 3 women took the number one position away from her. Her opponents did not get stabbed. They just waited for her to falter, which she did.

Navratilova even fell back to #3 in 1980!
And she lost the #1 spot to Graf in 1987 already, not in 1988.

So Navratilova was #1 between 1978 and 1987 (9 years) and went down to #3 in between.
Graf was #1 between 1987 and 1997 (10 years, lost #1 because of knee surgery) and never fell back lower than #2.
Advantage Graf.

Borat72
08-14-2007, 10:10 PM
It's precisely for that very reason that I don't give Graf GOAT status. A woman with that much talent and drive who was in her prime and who was considered to be the best ever (even better than Navratilova and Evert) should not have been that unsuccessful during the '90-'93 period. Consistency and longevity count for a lot. Ask Evert and Navratilova about longevity and consistency. ;)


Combine that with Graf's sadly tainted record and there is no justification for giving her GOAT status.

Navratilova didn't win even one slam between summer 1979 and December 1981. And fell back to #3. Right in the middle of her career. At age 22-25.

Evert was only #3 in the earl 1980s as well and won only 1 slam per year.
Right in the middle of her career.

So both can't be GOAT either ....

Borat72
08-14-2007, 10:11 PM
If you think Austin was better than Evert then you are mistaken. I think Chris proved that she was the better player in the 1980 US Open semis.

I'm not saying that Austin was a pushover because she wasn't, but no tennis expert ranks Austin as better than Evert and I am talking about talent and skill, not records. If the experts say anything about Austin, it was that she was almost the perfect Evert clone. Almost.


But without Austin having to end her career due to injury Navratilova would have 16 slams maximum and Evert most certainly less.

Wuornos
08-15-2007, 01:14 AM
I have to confess, I use my own rating systems that help to focus and inform my opinion while keeping things objective.

The system uses a simple aggregate formula to evaluate a players total achievement with their career irrespective of career length or concentration or spread of results across their career length.

This figure is then multiplied by a concentration factor which inflates their achievement figure depending on how whether their results were more concentrated in a limited time period or whether they were more spread out across a range of years. The resulting figure is deemed to be their dominance rating.

The Dominance rating provides an numerical evaluation on how well a player dominated their peers, however this does not take into account the standard of opposition faced.

Consequently the Dominance rating has what is referred to as an opposition adjuster applied which reflects the overall standard of the pro game at that time. Therefore the Dominance rating + the opposition adjuster equals the Overall Rating for a player.

As previously stated this system is not derived to provide an absolute answer simply to guide judgement by breaking down te various factors involved into their component parts.

If we look at the main players discussed on this thread, i.e. Martina Navratilova, Steffi Graff, Monica Seles, Chris Evert we can break down how their careers compare within this system.

First of all Achievement. Chris Evert comes out top of the four with 321 points. I am not going to go into how these points are derived or any other aspect of the system as to do so would take longer than is practical in Forum Thread. Second is Martina with 288, third Steffi with 273 and 4th Monica with 133. Before you all jump on me saying Steffi won more Grand Slams etc consider Chris played in 52 Major Semi Finals while Steffi only played in 37. That’s over 40% more yet her achievement rating is less than 20% more. That’s because of Steffi’s greater success in winning majors.

Next we need to consider the spread of results and calculate Domination by applying the Concentration Factor. Because of Monica’s short career meaning her total achievement was confined to a shorter timescale she achieves the highest Concentration Factor of 4.09. Second comes Martina with 2.59 and very close is Steffi with 2.44. Trailing somewhat because of the length of her career and the spread of her titles is Chris with 1.94.

Multiplying the achievement points by these concentration factors gives our Domination rating of their peers. Martina now moves top with 747 points. While Steffi is at 666 (Worrying!), Chris at 623 and Monica gaining markedly at 544.

However we also need to consider the standard of opposition faced. Not just their immediate contemporaries but the general standard of the top of the pro game at that time.

When we do this we apply th following Opposition Adjusters. Chris Evert 350, Martina Navratilova 390, Monica Seles 495 and Steffi Graff 528. These figures are derived by looking at the calculated ratings of players in the top 50 during the period the player was most dominant.

When these are added to their Dominance Rating we derive an Overall Rating for that player at their peak.

We therefore have

1. Steffi Graff 1194
2. Martina Navratilova 1137
3. Monica Seles 1039
4. Chris Evert 973.

Please don’t jump on me. As previously stated these figures are only meant to break up the component parts of a players career to help in informing discussion. They are not trying to be definitive. They are trying to be objective.

Warriorroger
08-15-2007, 03:42 AM
I don't understand the title of this thread. How can one dominate someone when their head to head is tied. Graf never dominated Navratilova, Navratilova never dominated Graf. They played matches when the other was in peak form. Only thing Graf never did was pick out tournaments/surfaces to avoid the other. Navratilova might not have been dominated by Graf, she was intimidated by Steffi.

Craig Carter
08-15-2007, 03:57 AM
But without Austin having to end her career due to injury Navratilova would have 16 slams maximum and Evert most certainly less.

Hi Condoleeza. I think that Navratilova was a much better player than Graf. Seles would have won more majors than Graf also, if she was not stabbed by a German (who was later let go by the pathetic German law enforcement).

Borat72
08-15-2007, 10:16 AM
Hi Condoleeza. I think that Navratilova was a much better player than Graf. Seles would have won more majors than Graf also, if she was not stabbed by a German (who was later let go by the pathetic German law enforcement).

Hi Condoleeza (what does that mean?)!
I don't think Navratilova was a better play than Graf.
We have to consider that Navratilova won 5 of the first 6 matches against Graf when Steffi was still a slender kid (not the athlete of later years). Nevertheless Graf won 4 of 6 slam finals against Martina, the 6 most important matches both ever played against each other. The clincher, though, is that Graf has 4 slams more than Navratilova. 4 slams - that is the slam tally of players like Sanchez, Mandlikova, that is more slams than a Davenport ever won!! And Graf has the grand slam which Navratilova hasn't. No one in his/her right mind would swap Graf's titles against Navratilova's.

Seles would have won 1 or 2 slams more considering that seven great female players who has successful slam runs (post-WW2) similar to Seles's in 91-93 managed only 1.4 slam wins in the 2.25 years (time Seles was out due to stabbing) after their runs.

German law enforcement isn't pathetic. It is far better than in the U.S.A. for example (still has the death penalty - even for juveniles!!!).

CEvertFan
08-15-2007, 10:56 AM
Hi Condoleeza (what does that mean?)!
I don't think Navratilova was a better play than Graf.
We have to consider that Navratilova won 5 of the first 6 matches against Graf when Steffi was still a slender kid (not the athlete of later years). Nevertheless Graf won 4 of 6 slam finals against Martina, the 6 most important matches both ever played against each other. The clincher, though, is that Graf has 4 slams more than Navratilova. 4 slams - that is the slam tally of players like Sanchez, Mandlikova, that is more slams than a Davenport ever won!! And Graf has the grand slam which Navratilova hasn't. No one in his/her right mind would swap Graf's titles against Navratilova's.

Seles would have won 1 or 2 slams more considering that seven great female players who has successful slam runs (post-WW2) similar to Seles's in 91-93 managed only 1.4 slam wins in the 2.25 years (time Seles was out due to stabbing) after their runs.

German law enforcement isn't pathetic. It is far better than in the U.S.A. for example (still has the death penalty - even for juveniles!!!).


Sorry to point this out, but you are certainly sounding a lot like Condoleeza these days.

Borat72
08-15-2007, 11:19 AM
Sorry to point this out, but you are certainly sounding a lot like Condoleeza these days.

She is a female obviously, and banned.
Her posts sound quite reasonable (Graf fan!) but a little bit arrogant.
Why was she banned?

anointedone
08-15-2007, 12:34 PM
2. Even with the stabbing of the red hot Monica Seles in the spring of 1993, Graf STILL did not establish any significant all-time records in women's tennis other than the most U.S. Opens on hardcourts ... the most weeks ranked #1 on the WTA computer rankings ... and the one for having won each Slam 4 times (all of which would have, naturally, been less likely if Seles had not been been stabbed by one of Graf's fans).

Exactly true. Whenever someone tries to tell me Graf is the best ever, even if I were able to look past the stabbing (which I am not), and her lack of a consistently great rival in her prime as it turned out with the stabbing (which I am not), I also ask what is her monumental record?

She does not have the most French Opens, the most Wimbledons, the most U.S Opens, the most total Slams, the most Australians, the most year end Championships. In total titles she is like 60 titles behind Navratilova and Evert. In terms of longest win streaks, she is nowhere near Lenglen or Wills Moody. The Grand Slam, well Connoly and Court have also done that. She is not the youngest to win anything, the oldest to win anything. She doesnt have the best longevity, the most consistency, or the most dominance since ever her 88-89 dominance is beaten by Navratilova's 83-84, Connoly's 51-54.

The most weeks at #1 is not a real record anyway since Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, all would have spent even longer at #1 had the computer rankings been in place then.

Borat72
08-15-2007, 12:46 PM
Exactly true. Whenever someone tries to tell me Graf is the best ever, even if I were able to look past the stabbing (which I am not), and her lack of a consistently great rival in her prime as it turned out with the stabbing (which I am not), I also ask what is her monumental record?

She does not have the most French Opens, the most Wimbledons, the most U.S Opens, the most total Slams, the most Australians, the most year end Championships. In total titles she is like 60 titles behind Navratilova and Evert. In terms of longest win streaks, she is nowhere near Lenglen or Wills Moody. The Grand Slam, well Connoly and Court have also done that. She is not the youngest to win anything, the oldest to win anything. She doesnt have the best longevity, the most consistency, or the most dominance since ever her 88-89 dominance is beaten by Navratilova's 83-84, Connoly's 51-54.

The most weeks at #1 is not a real record anyway since Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, all would have spent even longer at #1 had the computer rankings been in place then.


Graf has won each slam at least a record 4 times, each of the 3 most important slams (FO, Wimbledon, USO) at least a record 5 (five) times.
6 FO, 7 Wimbledons, 5 USOs.
Evert and Court have only 3 Wimbledons, Navratilova only 2 FOs.

And Graf has by far the most slams in the professional era (22), the by far strongest era in women's tennis.

Graf has one Golden Grand Slam and another non-calendar-year grand slam. Maybe the greatest record ever.

Did you ever ask yourself why most tennis fans and experts think that Steffi Graf is the greatest player ever?

Borat72
08-15-2007, 12:50 PM
Exactly true. Whenever someone tries to tell me Graf is the best ever, even if I were able to look past the stabbing (which I am not), and her lack of a consistently great rival in her prime as it turned out with the stabbing (which I am not), I also ask what is her monumental record?

She does not have the most French Opens, the most Wimbledons, the most U.S Opens, the most total Slams, the most Australians, the most year end Championships. In total titles she is like 60 titles behind Navratilova and Evert. In terms of longest win streaks, she is nowhere near Lenglen or Wills Moody. The Grand Slam, well Connoly and Court have also done that. She is not the youngest to win anything, the oldest to win anything. She doesnt have the best longevity, the most consistency, or the most dominance since ever her 88-89 dominance is beaten by Navratilova's 83-84, Connoly's 51-54.

The most weeks at #1 is not a real record anyway since Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, all would have spent even longer at #1 had the computer rankings been in place then.


Graf has five years (1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996) with 3+ slams.
A stunning world record.
In a nine-year period five years with 3 or 4 slams.
Maybe the greatest record ever ....

anointedone
08-15-2007, 01:20 PM
Graf has won each slam at least a record 4 times, each of the 3 most important slams (FO, Wimbledon, USO) at least a record 5 (five) times. 6 FO, 7 Wimbledons, 5 USOs.

You see, you are having to bring up a "combination" record. You are having to bring up a record of like "the only one with this, that, and that together". Such records are obviously not as meaningful as a straightforward one, where you dont have to combine various things to come up with "the only one" to do it.

Evert and Court have only 3 Wimbledons, Navratilova only 2 FOs.

Yeah but I would rather have the most French Opens and longest match win streak on clay, combined with great success on all surfaces; or the most Wimbledons and year end Championships and total singles titles, combined with a great record on all surfaces; then not have the most of anything, with an even more balanced record across all surfaces, but not the best anywhere.

Anyway Evert lost 5 Wimbledon finals to Navratilova. You do the math. Who has Graf faced, other then Navratilova in the late 80s, anywhere close to Navratilova's caliber on grass. Monica Seles, who I am sure you would be the first to point out was not that great on grass. Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Novotna, Martinez?

As for the French Open, many of the top players did not even play the French Open from 76-80, including Navratilova. It was not even fully recognized as a slam event generaly speaking back then. So that combined with Navratilova losing 3 French Open finals to a women named Chris Evert. Again you do the math.

And Graf has by far the most slams in the professional era (22), the by far strongest era in women's tennis.

It is really ignorant to assume, at the very least the post World War II period in womens tennis, before the Open era began, was not extremely strong. The 50s and 60s had a great depth of strong players. The Australian Open was a bit depleted, but other then that competition was not lacking in the least.

Graf has one Golden Grand Slam and another non-calendar-year grand slam. Maybe the greatest record ever.

The Golden Slam record is a bunch of crap. First of all there wasnt any Olympics in tennis from after 1924 until its appearance as a full medal sport again in 1988 (a demonstration sport in 1984). So the other 2 women who completed Grand Slams, Court and Connoly, were playing at a time there was no Olympics. Furthermore, their Grand Slams were in years that were not Olympics years anyway. Needless to say the odds would have been heavily in their favor of pulling it off given the opportunity.

Anyway nobody really cares about the Olympics in tennis. It is less important in the players eyes then a tier II event. They probably approach it, most of them, as if they were playing a tier II event.

Did you ever ask yourself why most tennis fans and experts think that Steffi Graf is the greatest player ever?

Where is your proof most tennis fans and experts think that? I have heard more say Navratilova was then Graf to be honest.

anointedone
08-15-2007, 01:24 PM
Graf has five years (1988, 1989, 1993, 1995, 1996) with 3+ slams.
A stunning world record.
In a nine-year period five years with 3 or 4 slams.
Maybe the greatest record ever ....

Margaret Court also has five years with 3+ slams. She did this even retiring about 3 times during this period and returning.

Moose Malloy
08-15-2007, 01:33 PM
that's interesting, I never thought of it that way, but you're right, graf doesn't hold any major records.

still the calendar slam does put her in a select group(& first to do it on 3 surfaces)

CEvertFan
08-15-2007, 04:03 PM
Exactly true. Whenever someone tries to tell me Graf is the best ever, even if I were able to look past the stabbing (which I am not), and her lack of a consistently great rival in her prime as it turned out with the stabbing (which I am not), I also ask what is her monumental record?

She does not have the most French Opens, the most Wimbledons, the most U.S Opens, the most total Slams, the most Australians, the most year end Championships. In total titles she is like 60 titles behind Navratilova and Evert. In terms of longest win streaks, she is nowhere near Lenglen or Wills Moody. The Grand Slam, well Connoly and Court have also done that. She is not the youngest to win anything, the oldest to win anything. She doesnt have the best longevity, the most consistency, or the most dominance since ever her 88-89 dominance is beaten by Navratilova's 83-84, Connoly's 51-54.

The most weeks at #1 is not a real record anyway since Court, Lenglen, Wills Moody, all would have spent even longer at #1 had the computer rankings been in place then.

An absolutely brilliant and well thought out argument and I happen to totally agree with you. The only major record that Graf holds that stands up to scrutiny is winning the Grand Slam in '88, which does put her in a very select group and makes her one of the best ever, but not THE best ever.

Any person who takes tennis history seriously would never count the so called 'Golden Slam' as anything more than a novelty and a way for the press at the time to generate interest in Graf in particular and for the sport of tennis in general because the Olympic event is usually no more than a Tier II tournament at best and it's really the calendar Slam that is the important thing, not the Olympic tournament.

Borat72
08-15-2007, 10:02 PM
You see, you are having to bring up a "combination" record. You are having to bring up a record of like "the only one with this, that, and that together". Such records are obviously not as meaningful as a straightforward one, where you dont have to combine various things to come up with "the only one" to do it. ....

You think combining Navratilova's 9 Wimbledon titles is not a "combination" record although you are combining different years?

Graf's Golden Grand Slam is combination record as well.
A career grand slam, too. And having won each slam at least 4 times ...

Borat72
08-15-2007, 10:07 PM
....Anyway Evert lost 5 Wimbledon finals to Navratilova. You do the math. Who has Graf faced, other then Navratilova in the late 80s, anywhere close to Navratilova's caliber on grass. Monica Seles, who I am sure you would be the first to point out was not that great on grass. Sanchez Vicario, Sabatini, Novotna, Martinez?

As for the French Open, many of the top players did not even play the French Open from 76-80, including Navratilova. It was not even fully recognized as a slam event generaly speaking back then. So that combined with Navratilova losing 3 French Open finals to a women named Chris Evert. Again you do the math.

Evert and Navratilova had weak competition. They played Morozowa, Turnbull, Shriver, Jaeger types in slam finals. No wonder they could divide all slams among themselves.

Evert on grass?
Please!
I saw what young Graf did with her in 1989 in Wimbledon (6-2 6-1). The same year, BTW, when Evert was still able to beat Seles at USO 6-1 6-0 (Seles being only 8 months before her first slam title!).

Borat72
08-15-2007, 10:11 PM
Where is your proof most tennis fans and experts think that? I have heard more say Navratilova was then Graf to be honest.

I have never heard of a fan poll outside of the U.S. that said Navratilova is the best. Maybe an Australian poll has Court as GOAT and an American Navratilova now and then - but else?

suwanee4712
08-16-2007, 07:47 PM
Evert and Navratilova had weak competition. They played Morozowa, Turnbull, Shriver, Jaeger types in slam finals. No wonder they could divide all slams among themselves.

Same old generalized statements. Yet, the facts don't bear this out.......

Of Martina's 18 grand slam titles, 12 were won against Chris and Steffi - easily 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time. Compare that with Steffi winning only 5 of her 22 grand slam titles vs. the top 5.

If you stretch it out to the top 10 of the Open Era, Martina still has 12 of 18. Steffi can add her 3 titles vs. Monica to bring her total to 8 of 22. It also helps Martina that she faced the likes of top 10 of the Open Era greats like Court, King, Goolagong, Evert, Graf, and Seles in grand slam competition. While Steffi only got to play Martina, Evert, and Seles. I'll be generous and throw in V. Williams and Hingis too, though they would be marginal contenders for top 10 of the Open Era.

23% of Steffi's grand slam titles (5 of 22) were won vs. Aranxta. Aranxta is the equivalent of Hana, whom you always conveniently leave out when counting the "types" that Martina and Chris won their slams against.

Then there was Tracy Austin who, when healthy, was better than either Arantxa or Hana. I wonder why you don't mention her as grand slam competition for Martina and Chris?

You also leave out Sukova who played her best tennis during the reign of Martina and Chris. But she still managed to make a couple of grand slam finals past her prime vs. Steffi.

Wendy Turnbull is one of your constant targets. But what difference is there between she and Mary Joe Fernandez, whom Steffi beat for 2 of her grand slam titles? Both were slam finalists 3 times in their careers. Neither player had any big weapons, but both used their intelligence to win matches and move into the top 5 at some point in their careers.

However, Turnbull was good enough to beat Martina (3x), Steffi (2x), Chris, Billie Jean, and Evonne during her career. Mary Joe only managed 2 wins vs. top 10 Open Era greats, 1 each against Martina and Monica. That's 8 top 10 wins to only 2 for Mary Joe. That's not including Wendy's 5 wins over Tracy Austin. So I guess the "Turnbull type" is at least as good or better than the Mary Joe Fernandez type?

anointedone
08-16-2007, 08:03 PM
Evert and Navratilova had weak competition. They played Morozowa, Turnbull, Shriver, Jaeger types in slam finals. No wonder they could divide all slams among themselves.

There is no big difference from Morozova, Turnbull, Shriver, Jaeger to say Mary Joe Fernandez, Natasha Zvereva, Helena Sukova, who Graf beat in finals of Slam events too. Players who spent alot of time in the top 10, won their share of tournaments, occasionaly went to semis or finals of a slam event, never won a slam. I dont see where the big difference is.

WChiang
08-17-2007, 10:25 AM
I have never heard of a fan poll outside of the U.S. that said Navratilova is the best. Maybe an Australian poll has Court as GOAT and an American Navratilova now and then - but else?

Condoleeza (who are you kidding, son).....I have heard of MANY fan polls throughout Europe and Asia that indicate Seles and Navratilova were the best. Graf was a distant third in many of those polls.

rod99
08-17-2007, 10:36 AM
An absolutely brilliant and well thought out argument and I happen to totally agree with you. The only major record that Graf holds that stands up to scrutiny is winning the Grand Slam in '88, which does put her in a very select group and makes her one of the best ever, but not THE best ever.

Any person who takes tennis history seriously would never count the so called 'Golden Slam' as anything more than a novelty and a way for the press at the time to generate interest in Graf in particular and for the sport of tennis in general because the Olympic event is usually no more than a Tier II tournament at best and it's really the calendar Slam that is the important thing, not the Olympic tournament.

ridiculous. a career is built not on one tournament, but on all tournaments played. sure, martina holds the record for wimbledon's but she only has 2 french's. evert has 7 french's but only 3 wimbledons. graf won all 4 of the slams at least 4 times each. not only that, she won the french and wimbledon 7 and 6 times, respectively, and these tournaments are the most different by far. it shows graf's all around ability to play on any surface. i'd much rather have won everything a number of times as opposed to specializing in one or two major tournaments and struggling on others.

drakulie
08-17-2007, 10:40 AM
ridiculous. a career is built not on one tournament, but on all tournaments played. sure, martina holds the record for wimbledon's but she only has 2 french's. evert has 7 french's but only 3 wimbledons. graf won all 4 of the slams at least 4 times each. not only that, she won the french and wimbledon 7 and 6 times, respectively, and these tournaments are the most different by far. it shows graf's all around ability to play on any surface. i'd much rather have won everything a number of times as opposed to specializing in one or two major tournaments and struggling on others.

Excellent argument. I agree that Graf had the more impressive all-around career because of her abillity to play well on all surfaces for a consitently long period of time.

Borat72
08-17-2007, 10:44 AM
There is no big difference from Morozova, Turnbull, Shriver, Jaeger to say Mary Joe Fernandez, Natasha Zvereva, Helena Sukova, who Graf beat in finals of Slam events too. Players who spent alot of time in the top 10, won their share of tournaments, occasionaly went to semis or finals of a slam event, never won a slam. I dont see where the big difference is.


Navratilova won 14 of her 18 slams in 1982-87.

The second best player in those 6 years was Chris Evert.
She was a baseliner. She played a 17/18-year-old Steffi Graf several times in 1987/88.
1-6 2-6 in Key Biscayne (1987).
2-6 1-6 in the Fed Cup (1987).
3-6 4-6 in Los Angeles (1987).
1-6 6-7 at AO (1988 ).
4-6 4-6 in Key Biscayne (1988 ).

The third-best player in those 6 years ranking-wise was Pamela Shriver. She was a S&V specialist. When she was 24/25 years old she played Steffi Graf twice in Wimbledon.
Graf won 6-0 6-2 (1987) and 6-1 6-2 (1988 ).

The fourth-best player in those 6 years ranking-wise was Hana Mandlikova.
She was an all-round player. When she was 25/26 years old she played Steffi Graf several times.
3-6 4-6 in Amelia Island (1987).
4-6 1-6 in the Fed Cup (1987).
2-6 2-6 in Zurich (1987).
2-6 2-6 at AO (1988 ).

Evert, Shriver and Mandlikova were Navratilova's main opponents in 1982-87.

Borat72
08-17-2007, 10:46 AM
Condoleeza (who are you kidding, son).....I have heard of MANY fan polls throughout Europe and Asia that indicate Seles and Navratilova were the best. Graf was a distant third in many of those polls.

:D
Seles?
Internet polls on Seles fan sites perhaps.
But never a scientific poll by a polling firm.

Borat72
08-17-2007, 10:52 AM
ridiculous. a career is built not on one tournament, but on all tournaments played. sure, martina holds the record for wimbledon's but she only has 2 french's. evert has 7 french's but only 3 wimbledons. graf won all 4 of the slams at least 4 times each. not only that, she won the french and wimbledon 7 and 6 times, respectively, and these tournaments are the most different by far. it shows graf's all around ability to play on any surface. i'd much rather have won everything a number of times as opposed to specializing in one or two major tournaments and struggling on others.


Graf won the awesome FO/Wimbledon/USO combination in the same year 4 times.
Navratilova once.
Evert never.

It is not even close ...

federerfanatic
08-17-2007, 10:53 AM
ridiculous. a career is built not on one tournament, but on all tournaments played. sure, martina holds the record for wimbledon's but she only has 2 french's. evert has 7 french's but only 3 wimbledons. graf won all 4 of the slams at least 4 times each. not only that, she won the french and wimbledon 7 and 6 times, respectively, and these tournaments are the most different by far. it shows graf's all around ability to play on any surface. i'd much rather have won everything a number of times as opposed to specializing in one or two major tournaments and struggling on others.

Winning 2 French Opens or 3 Wimbledons is hardly "struggling" on the surface. You are right that Navratilova and Evert each won less on their worst surface then Graf on her worst, but that does not mean they still dont have excellent records everywhere themselves or "struggled".

However the real reason Evert won only 3 Wimbledons is she was facing the greatest female grass court player ever - Martina Navratilova, who beat her in 5 Wimbledon finals. The real reason Navratilova won only 2 French Opens was she was facing the greatest female clay court player ever - Chris Evert, who beat her in 3 French Open finals, and probably would have beat her in a few others had all players played the French from 76-80.

Put Steffi Graf against the greatest grass court player ever, or the greatest clay court player ever, dont remove her main opponent with a knife in the back, and see how many Wimbledons or French Opens she wins now.

Borat72
08-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Winning 2 French Opens or 3 Wimbledons is hardly "struggling" on the surface. You are right that Navratilova and Evert each won less on their worst surface then Graf on her worst, but that does not mean they still dont have excellent records everywhere themselves or "struggled".

However the real reason Evert won only 3 Wimbledons is she was facing the greatest female grass court player ever - Martina Navratilova, who beat her in 5 Wimbledon finals. The real reason Navratilova won only 2 French Opens was she was facing the greatest female clay court player ever - Chris Evert, who beat her in 3 French Open finals, and probably would have beat her in a few others had all players played the French from 76-80.


Maybe Navratilova is not so great after all on grass when she beat clay-court specialist Evert in 5 of her 9 Wimbledons?

And maybe Evert is not so great after all on clay when she beat grass-court specialist Navratilova in 3 of her 7 FO titles? Evert's other 4 successful FO finals were against Morozowa, Turnbull, Ruzici and Jausovec.

Warriorroger
08-17-2007, 11:05 AM
You know, maybe to give these endless debates another twiste, it might be wise to take into account that many of Graf and Seles' peers and male players have an opinion about it. Ever heard Sampras, Henman, Kafelnikof, Mcenroe, Becker, Kraijcek, Kuerten, Muster talk about Navratilova and/or Seles? There are numerous articles where they show their respect to Steffi as a person and a player. Do you really think a true Graf fan would care if she is not considered the greatest? Yet, Navratilova, Evert and Seles fans are a bit insecure about their player's legacy. No need to, they are great players. The annoying thing here are the fans, while I as a Graf have no problems saying that Navratilova and Seles are great players, that Monica comes over as genuine nice person and that what happened to here changed women's tennis, you will never find any nice words coming from a Navratilova fan or a Seles fan. Navratilova has nine Wimbledon and it's all that, yet when Graf wins Wimbledon all of a sudden it is the only grand slam she can win when Seles around. For me the proof that Graf is the greatest and a good person are the following stats and persons.

Winning the French Open against the world number one at age 29, beating the top 3 en route. On her least favorite surface(yeah yeah Seles. almost 5 yrs younger out of form, Davenport bad on clay)

Reaching the Finals of Wimbledon beating very good grasscourt players on the way.

Andre Agassi and Gabriela Sabatini.

drakulie
08-17-2007, 11:10 AM
Put Steffi Graf against the greatest grass court player ever, or the greatest clay court player ever, dont remove her main opponent with a knife in the back, and see how many Wimbledons or French Opens she wins now.


What does this have to do with anything? Seles, even before the "knife incident" did not win Wimbledon.

Borat72
08-17-2007, 11:17 AM
Put Steffi Graf against the greatest grass court player ever, ...

Against Navratilova??
We did it.
Peak Graf beat Navratilova 5-7 6-2 6-1 in Wimbledon 88.
And 6-2 6-7 6-1 in 1989.

One close set for Martina and two extremely easy ones for Graf in both matches. Two really humiliating matches for Navratilova.

Had Graf been born 10 years earlier Navratilova would have 2 Wimbledons MAXIMUM.