Feasibility of implementing pro forehand?

[Eman]

Hi,

I've been on several sites including TennisOne reading and watching videos of the modern forehand that the pros use. What is the feasibility of the run-of-the-mill club player (me) learning a shot like this?

There seems to be a lot of parts to master (should movement of elbow, forearm, butt cap, etc). Is it even prudent to try or better to stick with the normal low-to-high, average top spin forehand?

It looks so good when the pros do it.

[Bungalo Bill]

It does look good and it feels good too!

There are three developmental stages in learning the modern pro forehand. Each builds upon itself.

The final development stage is when strength and the seperate movement of the elbow take form.

I will prepare my information for you to digest.

[Eman]

Thanks BB. That would be helpful. I have enjoyed your posts that I've read so far!

[Eman]

One thing I notice about the pro's strokes, is how effortless they are or look. I alway feel like I put so much effort into my stroke for what I get out of it.

I've just been watching Grosjean's strokes (tennisone). His stroke and balance amazes me.

[Kaptain Karl]

(Serious question) What are you talking about? What makes a forehand “Pro”?

(Sometimes I think we make things way more complicated than they need to be....)

- KK

[vin]

(Serious question) What are you talking about? What makes a forehand “Pro”?

I think a pro forehand is isolated by the fundamentals that allow it to be stable at high swing speeds and against high ball speeds.

The final development stage is when strength and the seperate movement of the elbow take form.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the elbow myself. In my experience, I have found it to be of major importance, but it's unfortunately not talked about much.

(Sometimes I think we make things way more complicated than they need to be....)

I disagree about 'making things too complicated'. Tennis is a sophisticated sport and it will be hard to improve and almost impossible to debug problems without thoroughly understanding the key details. However, I think things become 'too complicated' when focusing on details that are not important. Some aspects of a motion are preference and others are necessity. Complication occurs when you don't know what aspects of a motion fall into each category. I am guilty of over complicating things, but once I figure out how to differentiate between preference and basic fundamentals, everything seems much clearer and I have the knowledge to improve and debug. It is very satisfying to be good at something and know exactly what you're doing that is causing it to be good.

I've been on several sites including TennisOne reading and watching videos of the modern forehand that the pros use. What is the feasibility of the run-of-the-mill club player (me) learning a shot like this?

For what it's worth, easitennis.com claims that you can develop the fundamentals of a 'pro' forehand in a few years (I don't remember the exact number, mabye 2 - 4). I think most people here already have a decent forehand are already at least half way there.

I've just been watching Grosjean's strokes (tennisone). His stroke and balance amazes me.

I looked at Grosjean's forehand on tennisone also and got the impression that he doesn't hit through the ball as much as the guys with the bigger forehands. I think he's known for hitting a ton of topspin, which would agree with his swing pattern. I have problems with over complicating my backswing and not hitting through the ball enough so I've been using Agassi's forehand as a model. Efficient and very effective! For me, one of the key aspects of his swing is that he doesn't let his elbow go behind the plane of his body during his backswing. If I let my elbow get behind my during my backswing, I have trouble getting it back up in front and have a hard time making solid contact as a result.

[Kaptain Karl]

Hi vin - Before I jump on your case, how’re things in the Tri-cities? (I used to teach tennis at SUNY Albany.)
____________

From vin:
I think a pro forehand is isolated by the fundamentals that allow it to be stable at high swing speeds and against high ball speeds.Oh, good grief! This is exactly what I mean by making things too complicated. There is nothing “pro” about this.

You either have good timing and mechanics ... or you don’t. Some “Pros” have certain strokes which are terrible. (Think, Dementieva.) They are still “professionals”. Some amatuers have certain strokes which rival the pro’s abilities. They are still not pros.
____________

Eman - what are your goals for your forehand?

- KK

[Bungalo Bill]

Hi vin - Before I jump on your case, how’re things in the Tri-cities? (I used to teach tennis at SUNY Albany.)
____________

From vin:
I think a pro forehand is isolated by the fundamentals that allow it to be stable at high swing speeds and against high ball speeds.Oh, good grief! This is exactly what I mean by making things too complicated. There is nothing “pro” about this.

You either have good timing and mechanics ... or you don’t. Some “Pros” have certain strokes which are terrible. (Think, Dementieva.) They are still “professionals”. Some amatuers have certain strokes which rival the pro’s abilities. They are still not pros.
____________

Eman - what are your goals for your forehand?

- KK

I disagree with you very much. People just dont walk on the court and have good mechanics and timing. This is something that is developed.

Some pros have strokes that are not strokes the masses should duplicate but that does not mean all the pros are like that. There are many pros we can model and learn fundamental principles from for stroke development and timing development.

I think you need to retract or rephrase what in the world your talking about.

[Kaptain Karl]

From BB:
... People just dont walk on the court and have good mechanics and timing. This is something that is developed.I agree with you, BB. But Eman didn’t say he was “just walking on the court.” I think you’re stating the obvious.

Some pros have strokes that are not strokes the masses should duplicate but that does not mean all the pros are like that.I “almost” agree. If you change “should” to “could” we are in agreement. But I still say there’s no such thing as a “pro forehand.” Their timing and abilities are simply *better* ... but not fundamentally different.

There are many pros we can model and learn fundamental principles from for stroke development and timing development.No argument. My point remains.

I think you need to retract or rephrase what in the world your talking about. Has this post been enough clarification? If not, please be more specific about what you'd like to see. (I dont' know "what in the world you're talking about....")

- KK

[Bungalo Bill]

You can definetly develop a modern pro forehand by breaking down the key elements of the swing and then practicing them. As you get better and stronger your timing will improve as you keep practicing.

For instance, when I am on the court, some beginners tend to swing there arm like a gate. The shoulder unit all the way down to the wrist act as one unit. They turn and hit. The pro forehand has key indivdual elements that are seperate in movement but in sync with the entire motion of the forehand both in upper body and lower body.

By understanding the key parts you can easily show someone how their stroke compares to a well developed modern forehand. The visual information to the student is paramount to his understanding and their development path.

Tennis is a complicated sport. All sports are. Tennis is a difficult sport to learn and grow in. What we try to do as coaches is to simplify it as best we can. But the player still has to "learn" their sport even if it does have many elements to it. Tennis the way it is really played is not for the faint at heart.

[Bungalo Bill]

Hi vin - Before I jump on your case, how’re things in the Tri-cities? (I used to teach tennis at SUNY Albany.)
____________

From vin:
I think a pro forehand is isolated by the fundamentals that allow it to be stable at high swing speeds and against high ball speeds.Oh, good grief! This is exactly what I mean by making things too complicated. There is nothing “pro” about this.

You either have good timing and mechanics ... or you don’t. Some “Pros” have certain strokes which are terrible. (Think, Dementieva.) They are still “professionals”. Some amatuers have certain strokes which rival the pro’s abilities. They are still not pros.
____________

Eman - what are your goals for your forehand?

- KK

I think you better be careful because I think many are about to jump on your case!

If your really that good (which now I dont know) you would know it takes a long time to play this game at a high level. It is a difficult sport to learn and excel in.

The modern pro forehand IS a forehand that is DIFFERENT then yesteryears forehand. I am really surprised you havent figured that out.

[vin]

Hi vin - Before I jump on your case, how’re things in the Tri-cities? (I used to teach tennis at SUNY Albany.)

Tri City is doing well. Are you still in the area?

You either have good timing and mechanics ... or you don’t.
Yeah, and I bet Pete Sampras walked on a tennis court one day and said oh wow, look at that, I can hit a 120 mph topspin serve! All because he just happened to have good timing and mechanics.

I think it's a pretty dismal outlook to think that anyone who doesn't have the 'talent' to naturally display the necessary biomechanics is doomed to a tennis life of being a hacker.

I have always naturally been an average athlete, but it is understanding and then practicing the mechanics of a sport that made good at that particular sport. If I thought like you, I would have stopped playing sports long ago.

And yes, some pro forehands are better than others, but there are certain fundamentals that they all contain. This is what makes them 'pro' forehands. Obviously you don't see any pros using the 'gate' forehand that BB described. Why can't the individual using the 'gate' forehand learn the fundamentals that are common among the pros?

[Kaptain Karl]

Did I miss something? Or did BB and vin?

When /where did Eman post he “just walked onto the court?” He did not.

When did I say someone could just walk on and not hit a “swinging gate” forehand? I did not.

My argument is with the label “pro” for any stroke. This is silly.

- KK

[Max G.]

My argument is with the label “pro” for any stroke. This is silly.


That's true, you can't pinpoint a specific shot that is a "pro forehand." Different pros hit forehands different. Some of them are good to imitate, some aren't.

I would guess, though, that there are some characteristics that all (or almost all) pros have in common - these are what I think a "pro forehand" would refer to.

Anyhow, that's my 2 cents.

[Bungalo Bill]

Did I miss something? Or did BB and vin?

When /where did Eman post he “just walked onto the court?” He did not.

When did I say someone could just walk on and not hit a “swinging gate” forehand? I did not.

My argument is with the label “pro” for any stroke. This is silly.

- KK

Well dont take the "label" to seriously. It is something to help identify a difference.

A forehand at the 3.5 level is executed differently then a pro level forehand. There are several techniques that "pros" in general can use as compared to lower level players unfamiliar with those techniques.

If your just looking at the general swing, then a forehand is a forehand.

[Kaptain Karl]

Okay. I’m going to chalk this one up to “misunderstanding you” rather than disagreeing with you. I can live with that. Thanks for sticking with me through the working-out of the semantics.

The real question is ... “Eman, are you getting the suggestions you need to improve your forehand?”

- KK

[ShooterMcMarco]

i actually need some work on my forehand as well. BB, earlier before you and KK verbal jousted, you said that you were preparing things for him to digest. i would like to hear what you have to say.

[Bungalo Bill]

i actually need some work on my forehand as well. BB, earlier before you and KK verbal jousted, you said that you were preparing things for him to digest. i would like to hear what you have to say.

Boy, after KK and I came to agreement, I sort of dropped off the map on this post. Let me reread and try to get back to you on it.

[paulfreda]

This thread is going no where fast.
I think the reason is that it is almost impossible
to quantify a 'Pro' forehand.
Why ??
Just look at the motions of Philipousis, Haas,
Agassi, Fererro, Nadal, Connors and Sanguinetti.
They are totally different and they are all porfessional.

Jack Nicklaus always said he did not teach mechanics,
only fundamentals; how the club meets the ball and
what the effects are.

However, if someone said "teach me to hit the forehand
the way Nadal hits it", that would be possible for
some instructors who hit with and understand the
Full Western FH

I personally love tinkering with different techniques
and having fun learning the different keys to success
with them. BUT too many techniques is totally destructive
to winning tennis matches which rewards consistency
above all else.

[Bungalo Bill]

This thread is going no where fast.
I think the reason is that it is almost impossible
to quantify a 'Pro' forehand.
Why ??
Just look at the motions of Philipousis, Haas,
Agassi, Fererro, Nadal, Connors and Sanguinetti.
They are totally different and they are all porfessional.

Jack Nicklaus always said he did not teach mechanics,
only fundamentals; how the club meets the ball and
what the effects are.

However, if someone said "teach me to hit the forehand
the way Nadal hits it", that would be possible for
some instructors who hit with and understand the
Full Western FH

I personally love tinkering with different techniques
and having fun learning the different keys to success
with them. BUT too many techniques is totally destructive
to winning tennis matches which rewards consistency
above all else.

Well you're right when it comes to style and preference on certain things regarding the stroke, but every stroke is based on fundamentals. The fundamentals of a pro stroke CAN be taught and instruction CAN be built around it.

Comparing a pro stroke to someone who is learning to hit a forehand or someone who needs some "new" information concerning their stroke and the differences in the "pro" stroke should be illustrated and acknowledged. This can be done and should be done iof the player wants to get better.

[ShooterMcMarco]

Comparing a pro stroke to someone who is learning to hit a forehand or someone who needs some "new" information concerning their stroke and the differences in the "pro" stroke should be illustrated and acknowledged. This can be done and should be done iof the player wants to get better.

Well put. That's why i'm here to learn :)

[Bungalo Bill]

i actually need some work on my forehand as well. BB, earlier before you and KK verbal jousted, you said that you were preparing things for him to digest. i would like to hear what you have to say.

In general, there are three stages to the modern forehand.

1. Beginning Forehand: The player usually learns to swing the racquet as a unit. The unit being the shoulders and arm are in sync and move together to hit the ball. While this will help mostly in consistency it doesn't produce the pace one should be getting from the forehand. I am not saying the forehand resembles a push. It is a swing but it is a unified swing.

2. Intermediate to Advanced Forehand: The player begins to separate the elbow movement with his rotation. Timing this on a consistant basis can present problems on different balls.

The elbow is clearly being utilized to increase racquet head speed and becomes an element of racquet acceleration. The elbow leads the back shoulder rotation into the ball and you can clearly see it move in front of the body plane before contact is made.

3. Advanced to Pro: The key difference in this forehand is the strength element and timing. The pro is able to keep a stabilized racquet head throughout a "violent" swing and is able to generate incredible force against the ball for both pace and spin. Racquet speed generation is very high and in control a sign of a pros strength. Exercises in the intermediate and low advanced forehand will help elevate the forehand to world-class. A pro is able to take more balls on the rise which is a difficult feat to time your stroke around. Other elements like superb footwork and "aerial" footwork patterns (hitting while in the air) are seen as the player is in excellent condition and has developed a lot of confidence in their ability.

4. Discipline: On another aspect, the pro stroke is extremely disciplined in all aspects. Head movement, focus, anticipation, movement, adjustments, ability to hit on the run for a long time, sustained rallys, and mental toughness all have to do with a pros stroke being a different animal and most importantly - something for all of us to model our strokes around and develop from.

There are a lot of things that go into a pro stroke that are different then what most players have time for and can develop. A pros stroke is highly tuned. Hitches are for the most part eliminated and smoothness is evident.

Now this is not to say that some pros have their own qwerks (spelling???). Some do. But if you get some slo-mo film of many different pros and breakdown the stroke there is a ton to learn. There is a gold mine of information to develop instruction around and help the aspiring player to feel confident in continuing to learn the fundamentals as they see them displayed in at the pro level.

Will we ever be exactly like our favorite player? No. Everyone is different in makeup etc. But the fundamentals are there and everyone can take something from a pro that they do not do well in their on stroke that they should be doing. That is how we grow and learn.

Vic Braden and others were pioneers to the modern stroke for his day, he got a lot of his information by studying professional strokes and identifying the common elements that they have compared to a club players strokes. They set the stage for further development and refinement.

Almost all the pros have physical and mental characteristics that a lot of us may never possess. Gugas flexibility, Agassi's vision, Sampras quickness, Gonzales's racquet head speed, etc. A lot of us may not have those gifts, but we can certainly find out what all of them have in common and learn those things.

http://img44.exs.cx/img44/5488/andre1.gif

[ShooterMcMarco]

In general, there are three stages to the modern forehand.

2. Intermediate to Advanced Forehand: The player begins to separate the elbow movement with his rotation. Timing this on a consistant basis can present problems on different balls.

The elbow is clearly being utilized to increase racquet head speed and becomes an element of racquet acceleration. The elbow leads the back shoulder rotation into the ball and you can clearly see it move in front of the body plane before contact is made.


Is the movement of the elbow on a forehand, similar to the elbow's role on a serve? I was also curious, lots of people mention about lining up the the buttcap with the ball. what is your take on that? because i don't know if i read any of your posts concerning that concept.



Exercises in the intermediate and low advanced forehand will help elevate the forehand to world-class. A pro is able to take more balls on the rise which is a difficult feat to time your stroke around. Other elements like superb footwork and "aerial" footwork patterns (hitting while in the air) are seen as the player is in excellent condition and has developed a lot of confidence in their ability.


I'm a little shady on the phrase, "on the rise." I've heard that phrase mentioned several times on these boards.

btw, thx for your time :P