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chris1992
06-05-2007, 12:44 PM
I know i may get alot of grief for this but i am a huge fan of all players i mention and im not making any views, i just want to know and understand this.

Canas, if im correct got banned for doping. There were allegations that nadal was doping which i strongly believe are not true but i was told that he does do anabolic steriods. I asked the guy for proof and told him that he has tests throughout the atp year. He said he must have an extremely clever doctor who prescribes him it in the right doses. I still didnt believe this and dont want to believe it. If it is true, why didnt canas do what nadal apparently does instead of getting caught and how come the atp dont clamp down on this more if their tests dont work?

Any ideas or is my friend talkin nonsense which i think he is to be honest?

Nadal_Freak
06-05-2007, 01:03 PM
Your friend is talking nonsense and is a hater.

Ten_is
06-05-2007, 01:07 PM
your friend is talking nonsense and is a hater.

lol

Nadal sure is ripped though and runs around that court non-stop like he never loses any energy out there.


Who knows really. From what I hear Canas had some drugs that were prescribed to him for endurance but they failed the drug test. There were allegations that it wasn't actually steroids afterwards but you just never know do you.

ACE of Hearts
06-05-2007, 01:12 PM
I dont like Nadal but respect him as a player, plz come up with real facts to validate your statements.

chris1992
06-05-2007, 01:15 PM
I dont like Nadal but respect him as a player, plz come up with real facts to validate your statements.

heyheyhey i dont think its true and these arent my statements i just want to know what people think on the matter.

DashaandSafin
06-05-2007, 01:17 PM
I think that the best players can get the best steriods, ones that stay one step ahead of the current list of substances that can be found. There are many dirty doctors out there, its a pity they put thier genius to this but they can stay one step ahead of the game, until the game catches up to them.

Ten_is
06-05-2007, 01:17 PM
wouldn't they test players all the time on this?

ChipNCharge
06-05-2007, 01:52 PM
wouldn't they test players all the time on this?

That's what I'm confused about. What substances does the ATP actually test for? How often? Who, everyone in the main draw of a tournament? Is the testing random?

Tennis_Monk
06-05-2007, 04:13 PM
That's what I'm confused about. What substances does the ATP actually test for? How often? Who, everyone in the main draw of a tournament? Is the testing random?

All the subtances that ATP thinks players shouldnt take.

They test very often. There are players who got tested 12 times a year.

Testing is random but there are times when it is mandatory.

wally
06-05-2007, 04:29 PM
Back in the day I used to body build/power lift the guy that got me into it was clean (no roids) as was I. There were of course guys at the gym we used who were obviously on the juice.

I think Nadal is clean (no steroids). The steroids tend to make you "freaky" big(look at Barry Bonds before & after pics). While Nadal is well muscled he is not "freaky huge" ala Arnold in his hey day or Barry. I will admit that Nadal looks more like an NFL safety or RB than your typical tennis player, but I think is more a product of his genetics and training than steroids.

jfmcdowell357
06-05-2007, 04:36 PM
So far there is no proof of Barry using 'roids. You might want to substitute his name with Mark McGwire......

Steroids controversy (from wikipedia)

Many of McGwire's accomplishments, particularly his record breaking home run surge late in his career, have come into question due to his connection to the steroid scandal plaguing Major League Baseball. After an article written by Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein[1], McGwire admitted to taking androstenedione, a legal, over the counter muscle enhancement product, banned by the NFL and IOC.

After repeated denials of performance enhancing substances McGwire, Jose Canseco, five other baseball players, and four baseball executives were subpoenaed to testify at a congressional hearing on steroids. There on March 17, 2005 he declined to answer questions under oath when he appeared before the House Government Reform Committee.

In a tearful opening statement McGwire said,
“ Asking me or any other player to answer questions about who took steroids in front of television cameras will not solve the problem. If a player answers 'No,' he simply will not be believed; if he answers 'Yes,' he risks public scorn and endless government investigations." During the hearing, McGwire repeatedly responded to questions regarding his own steroid use with the line, "I'm not here to talk about the past... My lawyers have advised me that I cannot answer these questions without jeopardizing my friends, my family, and myself. ”

[4] When asked if he was asserting his Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate himself, McGwire once again responded:
“ I'm not here to talk about the past. I'm here to be positive about this subject. ”

lilxjohnyy
06-05-2007, 05:04 PM
he was taught to never give up on a point which is why he goes after everyball. dont make a mistake and say he takes steriods

Forehand Forever
06-05-2007, 05:09 PM
But not both of Nadal's arms are the same size, his left is a lot bigger than the right. That's common in tennis players though. And I agree with lilxjohnyy about how he was taught to never give up on a point.

federerfanatic
06-05-2007, 05:11 PM
I think Nadal is clean (no steroids). The steroids tend to make you "freaky" big(look at Barry Bonds before & after pics).

Was Petr Korda, who was caught having used steoids, "freaky" big?

J-man
06-05-2007, 05:13 PM
I think if any player was taking steroids they'd catch. I mean there were players who had stopped for months and it was still in their system. The ATP does not care who you are they will catch. Just look at Canas. But Nadal in his right mind would not risk his while career and take steroids that just stupid.

tricky
06-05-2007, 05:38 PM
Was Petr Korda, who was caught having used steoids, "freaky" big?

Even so, steroids creates non-selective, non-exercise induced mass increases. It's most apparent in the big muscle groups like the legs and back, than in the arms. He could just train his arms, and it would be very, very difficult for him to develop big biceps without already having a large torso or legs. Also, Nadal's buddy Verdasco has more musculature.

Doping is a valid issue in tennis. Frankly I don't think Nadal is on clay long enough per match or doping to make a serious difference.

David L
06-05-2007, 05:46 PM
lol

Nadal sure is ripped though and runs around that court non-stop like he never loses any energy out there.


Who knows really. From what I hear Canas had some drugs that were prescribed to him for endurance but they failed the drug test. There were allegations that it wasn't actually steroids afterwards but you just never know do you.Don't believe it, Nadal gets tired like everyone else, especially with all the running he does, just few are able to prolong the match long enough to see him wilt totally. We kind of saw it in Hamburg.

onkystomper
06-06-2007, 12:08 AM
Canas was caught with a dieretic in his system not a steroid. These are used to mask the use of steroids, along with the prevention of colds and many other less sinister things. They are however a banned substance because of the masking effect they have.

The article with accusations of Nadals steroid abuse was written anonimously, the french journalist had no proof whatsoever and would not put his name to the article. Wreaks of sensationalism rather than a well documented story.

I am sure substance abuse is in almost all sports at some level but i do not feel that just because the two players you mention have excellent endurance people should start automatically suspecting them.

edmondsm
06-06-2007, 01:38 AM
I know i may get alot of grief for this but i am a huge fan of all players i mention and im not making any views, i just want to know and understand this.

Canas, if im correct got banned for doping. There were allegations that nadal was doping which i strongly believe are not true but i was told that he does do anabolic steriods. I asked the guy for proof and told him that he has tests throughout the atp year. He said he must have an extremely clever doctor who prescribes him it in the right doses. I still didnt believe this and dont want to believe it. If it is true, why didnt canas do what nadal apparently does instead of getting caught and how come the atp dont clamp down on this more if their tests dont work?

Any ideas or is my friend talkin nonsense which i think he is to be honest?

The Nadal and steroids thing came from the fact that he steamrolled the clay season, unexpectedly got to the Wimby final, had untennis-like guns throughout, and then his form fell off almost to the day that the Spanish doping scandal surfaced.

Tennis players get caught cheating because they are not paying attention to what they're putting in there bodies. It's not an endurance or strength sport. It's all hand-to-eye, creativity, footwork, and mental strength. I follow cycling a little, and I thought it was awful suspiscious how Nads trailed off right when all that stuff came out. But I would never take anything away from the guy. I'm sure he wasn't using, and is completely deserving of all his accomplishments.

OrangeOne
06-06-2007, 02:56 AM
Ok - can I get one thing straight here? We're talking about all illegal drugs, yes? Not just sterroids?

Now that I've confirmed that....

Also - I'm not making these comments in regards to any one player here...

I think player X is clean (no steroids). The steroids tend to make you "freaky" big(look at Barry Bonds before & after pics).

There are many drugs that would be more useful to tennis than steroids, like EPO.... increases endurance, very useful over 5 set matches and 14 day tournaments. Testosterone may not go astray either. Both are tested off baseline levels, if a person is consistently and cleverly 'managed', they won't show up as abnormal.

They test very often. There are players who got tested 12 times a year.

Makes no difference with 'level'-based drugs if administered correctly.

But player X in his right mind would not risk his while career and take steroids that just stupid.

Many pro cyclists are on drugs, it's a known fact... They risk careers that have been going longer than many tennis players!

Frankly I don't think player X is on clay long enough per match or doping to make a serious difference.

You're kidding, right? A 3-4 hour match? Imagine having 10% greater aerobic capacity, or 10% quicker recovery. I think EPO = 5-10% increase in capacity, pretty handy for a clay-court battler.

It's not an endurance or strength sport. It's all hand-to-eye, creativity, footwork, and mental strength.

Sorry, that's plain wrong. Pro-tennis is certainly an endurance sport, and it's also an endurance-power sport. Very rough on the body. Certainly dependant on aerobic and power endurance. Aerobic endurance can definitely be increased with EPO and the like.

Gugarocks
06-06-2007, 07:55 AM
I have been in this discussion before and people got angry because of my statements, so I'll be carefull with what I'm saying.

Based upon his gameplay and some of his tests, I'm convinced that something's wrong. There is no evidence and probably there never will be any.

Many people don't know that there are several ways to avoid getting caught. Some substances are indetectable if they are used correctly. It takes many years to get to know the basics about all sorts of dope. I don't want to brag but I know a lot about them.

The best doping schedules are very very expensive and only e few experts have the ability to create them ( making sure that a player doesn't get caught ). Dope dr Fuentes said that many spanish soccer teams and tennis players were involved. He didn't say any names, but I believe Nadal is one of them.

Rabbit
06-06-2007, 09:21 AM
Steroids?

Whoa baby...I had them things once....they still flare up. Preparation H doesn't help, only a steady diet of Metamucil every morning....

Nadal_Freak
06-06-2007, 09:49 AM
I have been in this discussion before and people got angry because of my statements, so I'll be carefull with what I'm saying.

Based upon his gameplay and some of his tests, I'm convinced that something's wrong. There is no evidence and probably there never will be any.

Many people don't know that there are several ways to avoid getting caught. Some substances are indetectable if they are used correctly. It takes many years to get to know the basics about all sorts of dope. I don't want to brag but I know a lot about them.

The best doping schedules are very very expensive and only e few experts have the ability to create them ( making sure that a player doesn't get caught ). Dope dr Fuentes said that many spanish soccer teams and tennis players were involved. He didn't say any names, but I believe Nadal is one of them.
You don't know anything about Nadal so your opinions don't mean anything. To falsely claim that Nadal would be doping just because some other spanish soccer players took it is just wrong. Nadal would be stupid to take the risk of getting caught. Nadal is obviously not as comfortable on hard courts as clay and grass. Plus he took a month off which hurt his rhythm. Keep your biased hate opinions to yourself.

Fries-N-Gravy
06-06-2007, 12:48 PM
you people have to be joking. Nadal is by no means a big guy. he has maybe more muscle than the average fat joe but mainly he has low body fat because he doesnt run on dunkin donuts and ice cream.

its funny how ignorant people are about excercise and nutrition. even if someone is doping, steroids are not going to lift the weights for you and they are certainly not going to make you look like arnold anytime soon in the next 10 years.

there are many legal supplements that are almost as powerful as steroids, the reason many supplements are banned is not because of the unfair advantage they give you in recovery, but because they have side effects harmful to your body.

either way they just allow you to train harder and more frequent by cutting recovery time. they arent going to make you like popeye on spinach. you still have to put in an insane amount of hard work regardless.

think these guys can afford roids or even healthy food?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDCxH88-9X8

tricky
06-06-2007, 12:59 PM
You're kidding, right? A 3-4 hour match? Imagine having 10% greater aerobic capacity, or 10% quicker recovery. I think EPO = 5-10% increase in capacity, pretty handy for a clay-court battler.

Right but we're talking about Nadal in this example. How often has had Nadal had to play 4+ hour marathon matches in the past year on his favorite surface? Would increasing oxidative capacity improve Nadal's incredible movement speed oncourt that much? Please don't twist my words around -- I already said doping was a valid issue in tennis.

there are many legal supplements that are almost as powerful as steroids, the reason many supplements are banned is not because of the unfair advantage they give you in recovery, but because they have side effects harmful to your body.

I don't know about that. No legal supplement comes close to steroids, and what it can do for your recovery.

That said, I agree with your basic message about exercise and such. Aside from just having big left biceps, Nadal's LBM profile is comparable with a junior/senior high school wrestler, and maybe less than a water polo player. He's just not that big.

Fries-N-Gravy
06-06-2007, 01:02 PM
I don't know about that. No legal supplement comes close to steroids, and what it can do for your recovery.

really and how do you know this? are you a bodybuilder? steroids have been banned from Mr olympia and many other competitions many years now. and yet the guys these days are twice the size of arnold who WAS on steroids. you can look at any sport and tennis players are among the weakest, skinniest, most frail and it does not mean everyone else is on roids. olympic gymnasts have tons of muscle, are extremely flexible and have some of the best coordination and efficiency. maybe they are on steroids too.

anyone remember agassi? the only reason he lasted so long was because of his training. he wasn't ripped but he got pretty big. how many tennis players can bench 350? he supposedly used ZMA fuel, glutamine fuel, and creatine, from twinlab. which aren't even powerful supps.

what i was trying to say is, steroids arent even that powerful to help you. its mainly the work you yourself put into it.

tricky
06-06-2007, 01:06 PM
steroids have been banned from Mr olympia

Wow. No offense -- but do you even follow bodybuilding? Try to make that comment over at bodybuilder, elitefitness, or avantlabs, etc. I'm a fan of Ronnie Coleman or even Jay Cutler (ok not really, can't STAND the guy) as anybody, but those guys juice.

Like I said, if you can find any other substance that can trigger satellite cell donation (precursor to muscular hypertrophy) without lifting weights -- and yes, this has been proven again and again in formal studies -- than good ol' test, please let me know.

. olympic gymnasts have tons of muscle, are extremely flexible and have some of the best coordination and efficiency. maybe they are on steroids too.

So, that's the thing with Olympic gymnasts. They have extremely impressive upper torso development, but most of them are also very short. Meaning, if you did FFMI profiles of elite gymnasts, they're actually within parameters considered "natural."

tricky
06-06-2007, 01:17 PM
anyone remember agassi? the only reason he lasted so long was because of his training. he wasn't ripped but he got pretty big. how many tennis players can bench 350? he supposedly used ZMA fuel, glutamine fuel, and creatine, from twinlab. which aren't even powerful supps.

Nah, Agassi was never that big, just really strong. Not sure about the 315 numbers that's been quoted in articles, but I admired his training regimen nonetheless. But given his supplements . . .

ZMA -- crap supplement, worthless
Creatine -- great for athletic performance, increases cell volumization (i.e. more water), but creatine's effect on facilitating hypertrophy is nowhere near what is possible with roids
Glutamine -- sure, it and some other EAAs can make cause a spike in protein synthesis post-workout. Again, isn't going to give you steroid-levels of recovery ability?

edmondsm
06-06-2007, 02:14 PM
Sorry, that's plain wrong. Pro-tennis is certainly an endurance sport, and it's also an endurance-power sport. Very rough on the body. Certainly dependant on aerobic and power endurance. Aerobic endurance can definitely be increased with EPO and the like.

I meant in the spectum of sports it's not an endurance and strength sport. Not like cycling, track & field, weight lifting, American football (strength and explosivness). So it is not as prone to cheating. Get it?

OrangeOne
06-06-2007, 02:29 PM
Right but we're talking about Nadal in this example. How often has had Nadal had to play 4+ hour marathon matches in the past year on his favorite surface? Would increasing oxidative capacity improve Nadal's incredible movement speed oncourt that much? Please don't twist my words around -- I already said doping was a valid issue in tennis.

Even if it saves a player - Nadal or otherwise - a couple of beats-a-minute on a consistent basis, yep, I still think it's worth it, even for the additional clarity of thought & movement that comes with a slightly lower HR, and the slightly quicker recovery time.

For the record - I haven't twisted your words around either. I replied to a specific point you made. It seems we agree on the grander scale....

OrangeOne
06-06-2007, 02:40 PM
I meant in the spectum of sports it's not an endurance and strength sport. Not like cycling, track & field, weight lifting, American football (strength and explosivness). So it is not as prone to cheating. Get it?

Politicians, when they intend to qualify something later, allow something called "wiggle room". You said:

It's not an endurance or strength sport. It's all hand-to-eye, creativity, footwork, and mental strength.

Perhaps the next time you intend to qualify what you intend to say later, allow yourself a little wiggle-room? You were pretty clear edmondsm. I feel tennis is very much an endurance & power sport, and power is simply strength applied with speed.

Anyways - I still disagree. As someone heavily involved in sport - I still feel tennis (singles) at most levels compares to many other sports. It's as endurance-based as most sports, it's as power-based as many sports, etc etc.

And sure - it's not as strength based as weightlifting or american football, but it's so much more endurance-based than either of those sports it's just not funny?

The point I agree with: It's certainly not as prone to cheating.

tricky
06-06-2007, 02:53 PM
I feel tennis is very much an endurance & power sport, and power is simply strength applied with speed.

Yeah, I think that's a legitimate point when you consider the service game. You're doing an explosive movement with your legs well over 100 times per match.

OrangeOne
06-06-2007, 02:59 PM
Yeah, I think that's a legitimate point when you consider the service game. You're doing an explosive movement with your legs well over 100 times per match.

Yup. Combine that, with running, and with hitting 'modern' shots, and endurance and power is well out there.

Specifically on your point - it's never clearer - simply on the serving front alone - than when you start a match with one of those looong service games. You know, the type that go for 5 or 10 deuces... Probably 9 serves to get to deuce (accounting for a 50% 1st serve %), 3 for every deuce/ad scenario, and suddenly even 5 deuces = 15 serves, and we have that explosive serve movement 24 times in 5 or 10 minutes! :)

Ano
06-06-2007, 04:51 PM
really and how do you know this? are you a bodybuilder? steroids have been banned from Mr olympia and many other competitions many years now. and yet the guys these days are twice the size of arnold who WAS on steroids. you can look at any sport and tennis players are among the weakest, skinniest, most frail and it does not mean everyone else is on roids. olympic gymnasts have tons of muscle, are extremely flexible and have some of the best coordination and efficiency. maybe they are on steroids too.

anyone remember agassi? the only reason he lasted so long was because of his training. he wasn't ripped but he got pretty big. how many tennis players can bench 350? he supposedly used ZMA fuel, glutamine fuel, and creatine, from twinlab. which aren't even powerful supps.

what i was trying to say is, steroids arent even that powerful to help you. its mainly the work you yourself put into it.

The guys these days do not only use steroids, they abuse steroids and other drugs (insulin, GH, clenbuterol, Anti Gynocomastia, HCG, Anti Estrogen, thyroid, diuretic, IGF-1 and even Synthol) big time.

Off course, supplement companies have been trying to convince you, that the guys get their bodies by using only supplement. ;) MuscleTech for example, want us to believe that Jay Cutler won the 2006 Olympia because he used GAKIC, LEUKIC, APLODAN and other MuscleTech supplements.

Having said that, I agree with your other point, you certainly do NOT need steroids to build a body like Nadal.

Ano
06-06-2007, 05:17 PM
really and how do you know this? are you a bodybuilder? steroids have been banned from Mr olympia and many other competitions many years now. and yet the guys these days are twice the size of arnold who WAS on steroids. you can look at any sport and tennis players are among the weakest, skinniest, most frail and it does not mean everyone else is on roids. olympic gymnasts have tons of muscle, are extremely flexible and have some of the best coordination and efficiency. maybe they are on steroids too.

anyone remember agassi? the only reason he lasted so long was because of his training. he wasn't ripped but he got pretty big. how many tennis players can bench 350? he supposedly used ZMA fuel, glutamine fuel, and creatine, from twinlab. which aren't even powerful supps.

what i was trying to say is, steroids arent even that powerful to help you. its mainly the work you yourself put into it.


Really?

I give you one study.

The subject was a male professional bodybuilder. He took an average of 55 mg per day of oxandrolone orally for 76 days, and then took an average of 87 mg per day for another 64 days. In addition, he consumed a high protein diet and trained very hard for an upcoming competition. (Forbes GB. The effect of anabolic steroids on lean body mass: the dose response curve. Metabolism. 1985 Jun;34(6):571-3)

The result? He gained 9.7 kg (21.3 pounds) of body weight while increasing lean muscle mass by 19.2 kg (42.2 pounds)! That means, he gained 19.2 kg of lean body mass while losing 9.5 kg of fat while on steroids.

NOTE : I do NOT recommend people to take steroids because steroids are illegal and potentially dangerous to your health. But facts are facts. Steroids are powerful.

OrangeOne
06-06-2007, 05:36 PM
The result? He gained 9.7 kg (21.3 pounds) of body weight while increasing lean muscle mass by 19.2 kg (42.2 pounds)! That means, he gained 19.2 kg of lean body mass while losing 9.5 kg of fat while on steroids.

NOTE : I do NOT recommend people to take steroids because steroids are illegal and potentially dangerous to your health. But facts are facts. Steroids are powerful.

140 days = 20 weeks. He gained a Kilo of Lean Body Mass a week? Wow - especially in a trained individual. That's some kind of proof right there...

ChiefAce
06-06-2007, 06:46 PM
According to Johnny Mac during French Open commentary the ATP doesn't have a test that can detect HGH (Human growth hormone). So as long as that substance is undetectable dopers can fly under the radar in professional tennis quite easily.

apothnyc
06-06-2007, 10:23 PM
USA--> Anabolic steroids are a sched III controlled drug like Vicodin (Sched II in NYS)-----use without an Rx is punishable by death. Therefore American players do not juice. USA=clean

Spain--> Rafa says his enormous bicep is "from tennis only"...no weights ...no juice. If Rafa aint using---no one else is. Espana= clean

Argentina--> Anabolic steroids are put in baby formula and sold in the bodega next to the steak sauce. The tennis system is muy dirty and all players juice except one.....and he is 300lbs with 30% body fat.

No flames please----the proof is in the nandro pudding.

Gugarocks
06-07-2007, 08:43 AM
@ nadal freak :

As I said, I'm gonna be carefull with what I say because I know that the Nadal fans will respond. Claycourt tennis is very much about endurance and if you don't believe that there is cheating involved, that's fine with me.
One of my courses at my college is all about nutrition and performance enhancing drugs also take part. My teacher used to be the team doctor of a professional cycling team and he says there are multiple ways to avoid getting caught ( Even in 2007 ). For example, if I take micro - doses of EPO at 10 PM, and I get tested one day later at 8 AM, that there is no single test that can prove that I cheated. If I do this daily, I gives a significant improvement of my endurance and no single test will be positive.
Maybe Nadal isn't one of them, he never got caught an he could be innocent. But on the other hand, several tests of Nadal show that his genetics are amazing ( natural or not, I don't know )
I once tested my own endurance with a sports doctor. The ability of my lungs for oxygen uptake ( which strongly determines my endurance capacity ) or VO2Max, is 55. It is genetically determined and mine is a little bit better than an avarage person. The VO2Max of cyclists is measured at a young age, and it measures their natural talent for endurance. The only way to improve your VO2Max, is to practice in very high mountains for years and years. This is what cyclists do. An other possibility is to use EPO ( much easier ), which is a must for cyclists because otherwise they can never make the top.

Nadal's VO2Max is 72 !!! It is exactly the same as a top - tour the France cyclists ! He might have monster genetics, which is what most cyclists claim to have. I am not accusing him because he never tested positive. I am suspicious though and I hope you don't blame me for it.

I think that in every kind of endurance sport, including claycourt tennis, banned substances are involved. Maybe not Nadal, but other guys have proven that it's true.

jmsx521
06-07-2007, 11:38 AM
Maybe they should make The Steroid Olympics; it would be only for athletes on steroids…. Too many athletes are striving for the max performance nowadays: let’s just let them take whatever they want, e.g., gasoline, kerosene, etc.

z-money
06-07-2007, 12:20 PM
i believe roddick is dopping

angharad
06-07-2007, 12:35 PM
That's what I'm confused about. What substances does the ATP actually test for? How often? Who, everyone in the main draw of a tournament? Is the testing random?

This link provides a wealth of information:

http://www.atptennis.com/en/antidoping

Basically, players are tested multiple times a year. There are usually blood tests before each Slam, and urine tests otherwise. The ATP tests for a lot of substances (11 pages worth), and monitor others (like caffeine, codeine, etc). For some substances, like HGH, many people aren't sure how reliable the tests are.

Nadal_Freak
06-07-2007, 12:38 PM
@ nadal freak :

As I said, I'm gonna be carefull with what I say because I know that the Nadal fans will respond. Claycourt tennis is very much about endurance and if you don't believe that there is cheating involved, that's fine with me.
One of my courses at my college is all about nutrition and performance enhancing drugs also take part. My teacher used to be the team doctor of a professional cycling team and he says there are multiple ways to avoid getting caught ( Even in 2007 ). For example, if I take micro - doses of EPO at 10 PM, and I get tested one day later at 8 AM, that there is no single test that can prove that I cheated. If I do this daily, I gives a significant improvement of my endurance and no single test will be positive.
Maybe Nadal isn't one of them, he never got caught an he could be innocent. But on the other hand, several tests of Nadal show that his genetics are amazing ( natural or not, I don't know )
I once tested my own endurance with a sports doctor. The ability of my lungs for oxygen uptake ( which strongly determines my endurance capacity ) or VO2Max, is 55. It is genetically determined and mine is a little bit better than an avarage person. The VO2Max of cyclists is measured at a young age, and it measures their natural talent for endurance. The only way to improve your VO2Max, is to practice in very high mountains for years and years. This is what cyclists do. An other possibility is to use EPO ( much easier ), which is a must for cyclists because otherwise they can never make the top.

Nadal's VO2Max is 72 !!! It is exactly the same as a top - tour the France cyclists ! He might have monster genetics, which is what most cyclists claim to have. I am not accusing him because he never tested positive. I am suspicious though and I hope you don't blame me for it.

I think that in every kind of endurance sport, including claycourt tennis, banned substances are involved. Maybe not Nadal, but other guys have proven that it's true.
How could a professional athlete be in such good shape? Is that your argument? Weak argument as Nadal has been training his whole life for this.

OrangeOne
06-07-2007, 01:47 PM
One of my courses at my college is all about nutrition and performance enhancing drugs also take part. My teacher used to be the team doctor of a professional cycling team and he says there are multiple ways to avoid getting caught ( Even in 2007 ). For example, if I take micro - doses of EPO at 10 PM, and I get tested one day later at 8 AM, that there is no single test that can prove that I cheated. If I do this daily, I gives a significant improvement of my endurance and no single test will be positive.

I agree with the above, in-principle anyways. It's why doping is a 'science', and it's what I alluded to earlier in the thread about 'baseline level' drugs.

Maybe Nadal isn't one of them, he never got caught an he could be innocent. But on the other hand, several tests of Nadal show that his genetics are amazing ( natural or not, I don't know )

Most people in the top 10 in the world in a major sport have best-of-breed genetics.

I once tested my own endurance with a sports doctor. The ability of my lungs for oxygen uptake ( which strongly determines my endurance capacity ) or VO2Max, is 55. It is genetically determined and mine is a little bit better than an avarage person.

The VO2Max of cyclists is measured at a young age, and it measures their natural talent for endurance. The only way to improve your VO2Max, is to practice in very high mountains for years and years. This is what cyclists do. An other possibility is to use EPO ( much easier ), which is a must for cyclists because otherwise they can never make the top.

Err - we need to stop here. I have to disagree with the two statements in red, they're wrong. One's maximum VO2Max is genetically determined, but not one's current VO2Max. And VO2Max is very trainable, anyone who goes exercises aerobically will likely be impacting their VO2Max!

You're misunderstanding VO2Max a little here. This is going to sound tricky (because of the double-use of the term max), but it's not too tricky.

VO2Max is simply a measure of your current aerobic fitness / capacity / endurance (pick whichever word works for you).

If you train aerobically (in any way - from walking to running to hard singles tennis to anything that gets the heart going) and get fitter, up goes your VO2Max, unless you were already at your maximum (unlikely for 99.9% of the population!). Your maximum VO2Max is indeed genetically determined, just like your maximum height. Unlike your maximum height, though, your VO2Max is indeed trainable up to that maximum.

Let's go to an example. These two people are untrained, they are couch potatoes:

Joe Average has a current VO2Max of 45.
James Agassi has a current VO2Max of 45.

Now both of them take up triathlon, and for the next 5 years they cycle, run and swim like crazy. Joe Average just has average genetics, while James Agassi is the son of Graf & Agassi, and has world-class genetics. They re-test their current VO2Maxs:

Joe Average has a current VO2Max of 68.
James Agassi has a current VO2Max of 75.

Both have become very much fitter, their aerobic capacity / endurance has increased massively, but because of his stellar genetics, James Agassi was able to exceed Joe Average.....

I hope that helps...

Nadal's VO2Max is 72 !!! It is exactly the same as a top - tour the France cyclists ! He might have monster genetics, which is what most cyclists claim to have. I am not accusing him because he never tested positive. I am suspicious though and I hope you don't blame me for it.

I'm not suspicious, I just wonder. We'll probably never know....

I think that in every kind of endurance sport, including claycourt tennis, banned substances are involved. Maybe not Nadal, but other guys have proven that it's true.

Agreed.

Gugarocks
06-07-2007, 02:31 PM
You're right Orangeone, it's been a while and I mixed some terms. My point is that his tests don't make sure that he's on something, but all of the genetically determined factors that influence his endurance are amazing.
I remember a discussion on TV about it,a little bit more than a year ago.
One of the Belgian Tennis experts was talking about doping in tennis, Xavier Malisse was also taking part in the discussion and he said " It doesn't take long for me to recognize these guys. When I saw the FO Quarter final match Canas - Puerta ( I think it was in 2005 ), I knew right away that something was going on " A lot of players in the ATP are suspicious but they can't say it to avoid trouble. Last year, Gael Monfils' coach insinuated that Nadal was on something, he got into trouble by saying that.

During the discussion, the host of the show had a few stats of Nadal. I'm not sure about all of them anymore, but I remember that his VO2Max was 72. They also discussed the level of red blood cells in his blood ( I'm not sure if you call this " Hematocrite " but we do in Belgium ) It was very high, much higher than the avarage 40%, but I don't remember the exact number anymore. Maybe natural, maybe not. Some other stats were discussed but don't remember all of them. The stats don't prove anything, but it makes it very hard to believe for me that it's all about some good genetics.

My basic opinion is the following :
Lots of " Claycourt specialists " have been tested positive for endurance enhancing drugs. Canas, Coria, Puerta,.. many others. That's because endurance is very very important to play these marathon matches on clay. Their game is based on outgrinding their opponents. They return every shot by running every ball down and by hitting spin balls to keep their opponents behind the base line. When I see Nadal play, I must say that he has exactly this same playing style. The distance and the pace that he runs are stunning.
I believe that no single clean player can outgrind guys like Puerta or Canas, but Nadal has proven several times that he can.
This does not prove any guilt, but I can't imagine it otherwise.
As a cyclist, no talented clean player can outgrind a doped up non - talented player. Same goes for tennis. We hear about doped up cyclists constantly, most of them can avoid getting caught ( Ullrich would have never been caught if his name wasn't found in the lab ) I'm convinced that the same doping schedules are used for tennis

ninman
11-19-2007, 05:46 AM
bump.......

Morrissey
11-19-2007, 05:51 AM
bump.......

^^^^^^^^^Well, well, well. Look who bumped up this thread? Mr. federerfana... I mean Mr.Nadal Hater himself. You can´t talk about your favorite player huh? Too boring for you?

ninman
11-19-2007, 05:56 AM
^^^^^^^^^Well, well, well. Look who bumped up this thread? Mr. federerfana... I mean Mr.Nadal Hater himself. You canīt talk about your favorite player huh? Too boring for you?

I think you're the one who is full of hate, I just brought this thread up to show that people are always saying these things about Nadal.

No Drop Shots
11-19-2007, 06:18 AM
It is my belief that most do it to some degree or another. The upper blood level limit for most of these steroids/hormones is set way above most 'normal' peoples levels, in order not to exclude the odd biological freak that naturally has high levels kin their blood. That means that most 'normal' people can take substances in controlled amounts, thereby taking them close to the upper limit, whilst still passing a drug test.

Testing does not catch those that do it, just those that take too much and take themselves over the 'positive' result limit!!

TheNatural
11-19-2007, 06:21 AM
Nadal is just a freak. Lots of hard training and lots of fish. Fishing is one of his favourite sports, Whats the effect of a healthy fish diet on Vo2 max? lmao

Dilettante
11-19-2007, 06:58 AM
Steroids are definitely dangerous.


























http://www.orbit.zkm.de/files/asteroidnight.jpg

No Drop Shots
11-19-2007, 07:32 AM
The asteroid hit years ago. We are just pretending that it didn't. 'Within the limits' is the name of the game now!

jukka1970
11-19-2007, 07:38 AM
I know i may get alot of grief for this but i am a huge fan of all players i mention and im not making any views, i just want to know and understand this.

Canas, if im correct got banned for doping. There were allegations that nadal was doping which i strongly believe are not true but i was told that he does do anabolic steriods. I asked the guy for proof and told him that he has tests throughout the atp year. He said he must have an extremely clever doctor who prescribes him it in the right doses. I still didnt believe this and dont want to believe it. If it is true, why didnt canas do what nadal apparently does instead of getting caught and how come the atp dont clamp down on this more if their tests dont work?

Any ideas or is my friend talkin nonsense which i think he is to be honest?

Well I think your friend believes that he is correct. And to be honest, it's probably coming from the fact that big time athletes have been getting busted lately. You've got Marion Jones who had won 5 gold medals in track who swore she never took the stuff, then got busted and had to give back all her medals. You've got Barry Bonds in baseball who's been indicted on federal charges. It's tough to actually believe people. Like you, I believe that Nadal is clean. My best advice to say to your friend is to reinforce what you said about how often the ATP tests. Even with a sneaky doctor, I don't think anyone could possibly get by every test, not to mention that the higher in rank you are as a player, the more you'll be tested with random tests.

Jukka

AM28143
11-19-2007, 08:25 AM
The truth of the matter is no one knows if Nadal used/uses steriods or not. So, there is no point in arguing it.

In regards to the ATP tour, as a whole, I most definitely believe some players are using steroid. How many? I don't know. I'm sure fewer than the NFL or MLB where steriods could trun an average player into a superstar however.

Morrissey
11-19-2007, 12:27 PM
I think you're the one who is full of hate, I just brought this thread up to show that people are always saying these things about Nadal.

No you are the one full of hate because almost 90 percent of your posts are in regard to Nadal in some way, whether its hoping to see him lose in every thread during his matches or if its steroid accusations. Or making silly unfulfilled bets with other people online if Nalby will get the chance to even face Federer again and then losing the bet and still discrediting Nalby even after he won the second time around.

I know other people have said it in the past but you just have to bring it back after it's been dormant for a few months. So yeah, its their fault that you are talking about steroids today. Even though your accusations are based solely on the fact that you hate Nadal. Because it's certainly not based on any evidence other than seeing the guy has nice guns which we would only know because he wears sleeveless shirts. But go ahead disagree again since you like having the last word.

NamRanger
11-19-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm going to have to agree about the outgrinding Puerta part (who defintely doped). Nadal outgrinded him into the ground, AND Puerta was doping.

ninman
11-19-2007, 03:50 PM
No you are the one full of hate because almost 90 percent of your posts are in regard to Nadal in some way, whether its hoping to see him lose in every thread during his matches or if its steroid accusations. Or making silly unfulfilled bets with other people online if Nalby will get the chance to even face Federer again and then losing the bet and still discrediting Nalby even after he won the second time around.

I know other people have said it in the past but you just have to bring it back after it's been dormant for a few months. So yeah, its their fault that you are talking about steroids today. Even though your accusations are based solely on the fact that you hate Nadal. Because it's certainly not based on any evidence other than seeing the guy has nice guns which we would only know because he wears sleeveless shirts. But go ahead disagree again since you like having the last word.

You're a very mature person.

ninman
11-19-2007, 03:53 PM
I'm going to have to agree about the outgrinding Puerta part (who defintely doped). Nadal outgrinded him into the ground, AND Puerta was doping.

Means nothing, different people have different endurance levels. I was a very natural long distance runner, and could run 6 miles in under 50 minutes without any training. I guess Nadal was just a more natural clay courter than Puerta, who obviously needed drugs to compete.

Fries-N-Gravy
11-19-2007, 06:54 PM
it seems the majority of spectators would think anyone without a gut is on steroids. sorry, they are just not on the cheeseburger and triple latte diet. it is ridiculous that some players dope to help their endurance or strength,

tennis players are some of the skinniest athletes. its ludicrous for people to think nadal is massive, he's just very lean and has a decent arm. federer happens to have very tiny arms.

there are guys 3 times nadals size that don't use steriods.

nadal is number 2, and the number 1 clay courter, anyone with that kind of mental strength stay on federer's heels and ahead of everyone else would not be the type of person to cheat.

Morrissey
11-19-2007, 07:14 PM
You're a very mature person.

At least I´m not making bets to shave off my hair if Nalby faced Fed again. I´m not making steroid accusations. All those things YOU have done. So look in the mirror dude. BTW, did you think we didn´t remember that you said you wanted to see Nadal lose everytime when you said you were neutral just a few days later? My sig reminds you everyday of the phony you are.

OrangeOne
11-19-2007, 07:44 PM
You know, I think the biggest issue with Nadal and 'roids claims is that he / his team seem to insist on saying that he doesn't hit the gym.

Now, whilst muscle can be built up without hitting the gym, endurance muscle tends to get smaller (ie. more efficient) over time, we lose what we don't use. He is certainly much bigger than average for a tennis player, even a powerful one.

I sincerely don't believe Nadal is or was on 'roids, he has too much to risk and is an exceptionally talented tennis player.

I do doubt those (including his camp) who say he doesn't hit the gym. His body does look a little "gym", and moreso (and here's the clincher) if he's a professional athlete and he's not hitting the gym (even with an injury prevention program, let alone a power/endurance program), well he's a little ill-advised. That said, I think he's a little ill-advised a lot of the time, he seems to make some strange scheduling / injury-management decisions that I don't feel he'd make with someone like Gilbert or Roche at the wheel.

ninman
11-20-2007, 03:24 AM
At least Iīm not making bets to shave off my hair if Nalby faced Fed again. Iīm not making steroid accusations. All those things YOU have done. So look in the mirror dude. BTW, did you think we didnīt remember that you said you wanted to see Nadal lose everytime when you said you were neutral just a few days later? My sig reminds you everyday of the phony you are.

I see, so you resort to schoolboy bullying instead. Trying to pick on "weak" individuals to make up for your own shortcomings. I've changed my mind, and my opinions since I said those things, but I suppose in your sad little world we're not allowed to do that.

Let me tell you something, I eat people like you for breakfast. You don't scare me, or intimidate me, I certaintly couldn't give a crap about you or your stupid signature. I've met many cowardly bullies like you in my time, and I know exactly how to deal with people like you.

Morrissey
11-20-2007, 08:19 AM
I see, so you resort to schoolboy bullying instead. Trying to pick on "weak" individuals to make up for your own shortcomings. I've changed my mind, and my opinions since I said those things, but I suppose in your sad little world we're not allowed to do that.

Let me tell you something, I eat people like you for breakfast. You don't scare me, or intimidate me, I certaintly couldn't give a crap about you or your stupid signature. I've met many cowardly bullies like you in my time, and I know exactly how to deal with people like you.

First off I never made any stupid accusations based on absolutely nothing in the first place. You did that, I got on your case for it and because you can't handle criticism you have to nerve to say I'm bullying you. That's a bail out. Then you make a further fool of yourself after Nalby beat Fed the first time in Madrid and be dismissive of his accomplishment. That was a fluke, I'll shave my head if Nalby gets far enough to even face Federer the second time around. So he does (even wins the rematch) and you lose the bet which you never fulfilled. Who's the one acting like a kid.

Then you pretend that bet never happened, you never mentioned it once again thinking we all forgot. So what else is on your list of regrettable things you said? During the Nadal-Ferrer match you said you were "neutral" when it has been documented that you clearly said you enjoy and want to see Nadal lsoe everytime. How is that objective ninman? You never answered that question. Oh I get it, you just assume after a couple of days people forget your dumb posts. I wish I did my man, I wish I could.

I can't avoid you even if I tried, but you always seem to post in Nadal related threads which I find curious since you hate the guy. I mainly post in threads that deal with my favorite player and I always have to read your crazy posts always putting him down, hoping he loses or making doping allegations. You think I'm gonna sit quiet while you write nonsense all day about our favorite player? Hell no, none of the Fed fans do that so why shouldn't the Nadal fan do so either? Here's a little advice, go post in your Fed thread and you can have all the people agree with you to your heart's content.

Phil
11-20-2007, 10:53 AM
You know, I think the biggest issue with Nadal and 'roids claims is that he / his team seem to insist on saying that he doesn't hit the gym.

Now, whilst muscle can be built up without hitting the gym, endurance muscle tends to get smaller (ie. more efficient) over time, we lose what we don't use. He is certainly much bigger than average for a tennis player, even a powerful one.

I sincerely don't believe Nadal is or was on 'roids, he has too much to risk and is an exceptionally talented tennis player.

I do doubt those (including his camp) who say he doesn't hit the gym. His body does look a little "gym", and moreso (and here's the clincher) if he's a professional athlete and he's not hitting the gym (even with an injury prevention program, let alone a power/endurance program), well he's a little ill-advised. That said, I think he's a little ill-advised a lot of the time, he seems to make some strange scheduling / injury-management decisions that I don't feel he'd make with someone like Gilbert or Roche at the wheel.
I seem to remember something in Tennis Magazine awhile back that mentioned that Nadal worked out in a home gym. So, maybe his handlers are being coy by saying he "doesn't hit the gym"-technically, he doesn't, I guess...he works out in his basement or living room.

djsiva
11-20-2007, 11:25 AM
lol

Nadal sure is ripped though and runs around that court non-stop like he never loses any energy out there.


Who knows really. From what I hear Canas had some drugs that were prescribed to him for endurance but they failed the drug test. There were allegations that it wasn't actually steroids afterwards but you just never know do you.

Is that you in the Avatar?

You need to bend your knees more and toss the ball more into the court.

Looks like you don't take steroids.

djsiva
11-20-2007, 11:28 AM
Back in the day I used to body build/power lift the guy that got me into it was clean (no roids) as was I. There were of course guys at the gym we used who were obviously on the juice.

I think Nadal is clean (no steroids). The steroids tend to make you "freaky" big(look at Barry Bonds before & after pics). While Nadal is well muscled he is not "freaky huge" ala Arnold in his hey day or Barry. I will admit that Nadal looks more like an NFL safety or RB than your typical tennis player, but I think is more a product of his genetics and training than steroids.

Good point!

Also look at Nadal. His right arm is really quite normal.

Morrissey
11-20-2007, 06:00 PM
that link didnt work. was that a link to the photo of you with your shaved head? haha:)

Riiiiight. Like that will really happen, unless he just posted a pic of some skinhead or bald dude, or Agassi. Hah!