PDA

View Full Version : Safin a Muslim


Mark Vessels
06-05-2007, 04:23 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat_Safin

Under early life

"He is a Muslim, along with his family."

Kobble
06-05-2007, 04:28 PM
I never knew that.

Mark Vessels
06-05-2007, 04:37 PM
I thought it would be interestring to the peoples of this board because Safin is an eccentric character. It is unusual to be a muslim when you are Russian but Safin is cool and more people will get to understand that Islam is not just for mentally sadistic people.

bdawg
06-05-2007, 04:50 PM
Safin is a Tatar. The Tatars, for the majority, are Muslims. I do think this thread is dumb. Religious affiliations should not be a concern of this message board.

saguar0
06-05-2007, 04:55 PM
It is unusual to be a muslim when you are Russian but Safin is cool and more people will get to understand that Islam is not just for mentally sadistic people.

What is so unusual he is not etnic Russian exactly. He is from Tatar nation, which are muslims in majority.

If by "Russian" you mean him being from Russia then, it is not very unusual, actually. There is a lot of muslims in Russia, some nationalities are entirely muslim - Tatars, Chechens, Ingush, Kabardyns etc etc.

J-man
06-05-2007, 05:19 PM
Intresting that his family is Tatar

chiru
06-05-2007, 06:26 PM
i still donno if i buy it.

LarougeNY
06-05-2007, 06:32 PM
I didn't know that. It doesn't matter at all, but I had no idea. Don't think I know any players religions on the tour, except fed and nadal-they're catholic. and Mirza is muslim. Thats all I know.

Zverev
06-05-2007, 08:01 PM
Russians are extremely ethnically mixed, even more than Americans.
What, they say, around 100 native languages are spoken there?
So what that his parents from Tartar's province? They are not practising Muslims anyway, even if they would be so what?

fednad
06-05-2007, 10:06 PM
Religious affiliations should not be a concern of this message board.
I second this -- Please keep religious stuff out of this board.
This board has a religion - name is Tennis
And gods we worship are : Federer, Nadal, Safin, Davydenko and so many more.

serve/and/volley
06-05-2007, 10:18 PM
There is only one god, and that is the god of Poon.

edmondsm
06-05-2007, 11:18 PM
I didn't know that. It doesn't matter at all, but I had no idea. Don't think I know any players religions on the tour, except fed and nadal-they're catholic. and Mirza is muslim. Thats all I know.

Mirza is Muslim? Are you sure you don't mean Hindu?

gugarafa
06-06-2007, 02:55 AM
mirza is hindu ,if dinara safina is muslim why doesnt she cover her head outdoors and what about her oufits?such acts could warrant stoning where am from.....he might be from tatar but he and his family are probably not practising muslims

pound cat
06-06-2007, 03:08 AM
He's trying to get banned again.

As for the topic... old news, and so what? He is not really a 'practicing Muslim' so to speak, probably doesn't even carry a copy of the Koran (Quran?) with him.


Edit: Kobble, I stand corrected. Thought most tennis fans knew that about Marat (perhaps I hang around with too many Marat fans). :)

He has said on a number of occasions he is not a practicing Muslim.

pound cat
06-06-2007, 03:16 AM
mirza is hindu ,if dinara safina is muslim why doesnt she cover her head outdoors and what about her oufits?such acts could warrant stoning where am from.....he might be from tatar but he and his family are probably not practising muslims


Mirza is Muslim

Many muslim women do not cover their heads. I know some and they are definitely practicing muslims.

Safin's mother is a practicing muslim.

I have no idea whether Dinara is a practicing muslim nor do you.

I presume that if the person is not practicing Islam than they are not Muslim.

dirtballer
06-06-2007, 04:34 AM
India is 10% Muslim. In a country of about 1 Billion that makes about 100 Million Muslims. After the partition not all Muslims ended up in Pakistan.

tintin
06-06-2007, 05:01 AM
good for Marat.

dubsplayer
06-06-2007, 05:27 AM
Edit: Kobble, I stand corrected. Thought most tennis fans knew that about Marat (perhaps I hang around with too many Marat fans). :)

No you don't, fee. Everyone has known this for a long time.

bluegrasser
06-06-2007, 05:52 AM
I second this -- Please keep religious stuff out of this board.
This board has a religion - name is Tennis
And gods we worship are : Federer, Nadal, Safin, Davydenko and so many more.

Why not - everything else is discussed on this board, it beats PJ threads :p

Tchocky
06-06-2007, 06:41 AM
Safin is a Tatar. The Tartars, for the majority, are Muslims. I do think this thread is dumb. Religious affiliations should not be a concern of this message board.

What's a "Tatar" and/or "Tartars"? Are Tatar/Tartar children called tatar tots?

bdawg
06-06-2007, 06:44 AM
What's a "Tatar" and/or "Tartars"? Are Tatar/Tartar children called tatar tots?

what a bad joke...

galain
06-06-2007, 07:42 AM
if dinara safina is muslim why doesnt she cover her head outdoors and what about her oufits?such acts could warrant stoning where am from.....he might be from tatar but he and his family are probably not practising muslims

The requirement for women covering their heads/their bodies is not from Islam originally. It is an arabic tradition that was absorbed into Islam and spread with the religion.

Golden Retriever
06-06-2007, 08:05 AM
That explains the uncontrollable bursts of fury.

saguar0
06-06-2007, 08:28 AM
What's a "Tatar" and/or "Tartars"? Are Tatar/Tartar children called tatar tots?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatars

Attila the tennis Bum
06-06-2007, 08:44 AM
Tatar beefsteak is very interesting. Its basically raw meat and you mix it up with several spices.

It was invented by the tatars who were great horsemen and didnt have time to cook. So They just kept a piece of raw meat under their saddle. When it was time to eat they just whipped it out and mixed it up with a bunch of spices and the just ate it raw!

dora_75
06-06-2007, 08:50 AM
Tatar beefsteak is very interesting. Its basically raw meat and you mix it up with several spices.

It was invented by the tatars who were great horsemen and didnt have time to cook. So They just kept a piece of raw meat under their saddle. When it was time to eat they just whipped it out and mixed it up with a bunch of spices and the just ate it raw!


Aren't the Huns Tatar's cousins :grin:

Rabbit
06-06-2007, 09:18 AM
Marat being a muslim really doesn't matter...

Now them Tartar's can make a mean steak though....mmmmm good

christo
06-06-2007, 09:21 AM
If he was a practicing Muslim he would not drink alcohol

jelle v
06-06-2007, 09:24 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat_Safin

Under early life

"He is a Muslim, along with his family."

So he is not muslim anymore?

Rabbit
06-06-2007, 09:27 AM
If he was a practicing Muslim he would not drink alcohol

Whoa...I work with two guys who are Muslim and both profess to be Muslims...and both drink.

I asked one of them at the Christmas...ehhh Holiday Party what kind of Mulsim is allowed to drink. His reply was not a very good one.

Muslims adhere to their faith about as stringently as any other from what I've seen. Just because he drinks doesn't mean he doesn't believe.

maneater
06-06-2007, 05:12 PM
Yes and i confirm , on a number of occasions he and his family are not practicing muslims, i think his mother was orthodox but i cant confirm that, all i know is that he is not practicing muslim, and hes a tatar , what i can totally confirm is that he is the sexiest man alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LarougeNY
06-06-2007, 05:28 PM
Mirza is Muslim? Are you sure you don't mean Hindu?

100% sure dude, I'm indian and hindu. She's kinda big in India, she got into trouble a while back because the conservative muslims were unhappy with her outfits.

LarougeNY
06-06-2007, 05:29 PM
India is 10% Muslim. In a country of about 1 Billion that makes about 100 Million Muslims. After the partition not all Muslims ended up in Pakistan.

India has the second most muslims behind Indonesia. I don't think the spread is 10% muslim, probably more like 35-40%.

audioaffliction
06-06-2007, 08:33 PM
According to the CIA Factbook, India is 13.4% Muslim.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/in.html#People

SoBad
06-06-2007, 08:35 PM
Safin may be a non-practicing muslim, but at least he is not ashamed of his heritage unlike the Iranian Arab Andrew Agassi.

chiru
06-06-2007, 09:12 PM
The requirement for women covering their heads/their bodies is not from Islam originally. It is an arabic tradition that was absorbed into Islam and spread with the religion.

Unless you're a religious scholar (be it trained via orthodoxy or theologian from a western university) don't make statements like this. You never know when an actual student of religions might call you on it.

Phil
06-06-2007, 09:27 PM
India has the second most muslims behind Indonesia. I don't think the spread is 10% muslim, probably more like 35-40%.

That would be equivalent to 350 or 400 million Muslims-India has over a billion people. I think it's probably the third largest Muslim country, after Indonesia and Pakistan.

audioaffliction
06-06-2007, 09:29 PM
Safin may be a non-practicing muslim, but at least he is not ashamed of his heritage unlike the Iranian Arab Andrew Agassi.

Wow. What did Andre do? Kill your dog?

One other thing, Andre was born in Las Vegas. His dad is an Iranian immigrant, and his family is not Arab--not all Iranians are Arab. His family claims Armenian and Assyrian heritage, although "Agassi" strikes me as more of an Armenian name.

SoBad
06-06-2007, 09:38 PM
Wow. What did Andre do? Kill your dog?

One other thing, Andre was born in Las Vegas. His dad is an Iranian immigrant, and his family is not Arab--not all Iranians are Arab. His family claims Armenian and Assyrian heritage, although "Agassi" strikes me as more of an Armenian name.

Iranian Arab Andrew Agassi did not kill my dog. I don't have a dog. I've never been to Vegas. I don't even gamble (much). I wasted 100HKD in Macau in a coin machine once waiting for a friend to waste a lot more. Anyways, if you are genuinely interested in the subject, I suggest you take a read here:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=105159

Alex132
06-06-2007, 09:48 PM
Safin is a Tatar. The Tatars, for the majority, are Muslims. I do think this thread is dumb. Religious affiliations should not be a concern of this message board.

this is pretty dumb....i doubt Safin attends church or does any of those muslim prayers...not even once! that wont be uncommon

FarFed
06-06-2007, 10:40 PM
Wow. What did Andre do? Kill your dog?

One other thing, Andre was born in Las Vegas. His dad is an Iranian immigrant, and his family is not Arab--not all Iranians are Arab. His family claims Armenian and Assyrian heritage, although "Agassi" strikes me as more of an Armenian name.

His father's last name was Aghassian, he changed it to Agassi after immigrating to the U.S.

crazylevity
06-06-2007, 10:51 PM
this is pretty dumb....i doubt Safin attends church or does any of those muslim prayers...not even once! that wont be uncommon

Yeah, it's quite dumb to be assuming any muslim would be attending church, lol.

FarFed
06-06-2007, 10:58 PM
Safin may be a non-practicing muslim, but at least he is not ashamed of his heritage unlike the Iranian Arab Andrew Agassi.

Every story is different.

Sampras' Greek legacy was recently widely popularized when he visited the country recently. So, he's "ok" with his Greek roots.

Maybe Agassi is too personal and does not want to talk about it, that makes him "ashamed"? Don't forget, his father was very aggressive with Andre's tennis upbringing, maybe that had something to do with it. The point it is, it's personal, it's their life, their story.

BigGriff
06-06-2007, 11:48 PM
What does his religion have to do with his game or tennis?

galain
06-07-2007, 01:01 AM
Unless you're a religious scholar (be it trained via orthodoxy or theologian from a western university) don't make statements like this. You never know when an actual student of religions might call you on it.

Didn't mean to cause offence Chiru. My cousin converted to the religion some time ago. His brother in law is an 'ulema' - a theologian/cleric. That's where I heard this. Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

pound cat
06-07-2007, 02:43 AM
His father's last name was Aghassian, he changed it to Agassi after immigrating to the U.S.


ends in "ian" = Armenian

chiru
06-07-2007, 12:15 PM
Didn't mean to cause offence Chiru. My cousin converted to the religion some time ago. His brother in law is an 'ulema' - a theologian/cleric. That's where I heard this. Please let me know if I'm mistaken.

First of all, I apologize for the way i responded to your earlier post. Usually when people say what you said its said in a way that aims to belittle both the promoters of the Hijab (women's covering, I am one of them) and those who practice it (the women in my family for example). As a result i had a shortish fuse on that, and once again I apologize. It doesn't sound like you said it in that matter, rather that you have been put under this impression by that brother in law.

From this point on anything that I say can only represent the majority opinion (the 80-90% Sunni majority) which has been agreed upon almost unanimously amongst all of the scholars of Islam, about which there is no serious disagreement. Informally though, My best friend is Shia and he claims that the major branch of the Shia also (the Twelver Shia of the Ja'fari Fiqh) support hijaab. The Sunni scholarship is, without a doubt, in agreement.

As for the pre-Islamic Arab customs, whence the practice of Hijab is claimed to be originated, take for instance the fact that the Polytheists of Arabia would perform their pilgrimage rites in Mecca with Men and Women together and completely in the nude (both genders). This should sufficiently illustrate that shame and modesty were not hallmarks of pre-Islamic Arabian society.

As for the direct Islamic Religious (rather than cultural) import of the headcovering and dress for women, I offer the following evidences from the Islamic Holy Book the Qur'an (as translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali, a unanimously recognized translation, although translations do not capture the Arabic subtleties):

Chapter 24: An Noor (the Light)
024.030
YUSUFALI: Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.
024.031
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons,...(the verse continues to list other exceptions)

These two verses highlight a number of things. Firstly, the order to be modest in dress and behavior is certainly not limited to women but men also. the Islamic dress code for men, however, is not as often in direct clash with western standards however, which is why it is not often mentioned in the media.

Furthermore, the verses display an asymmetry with regards to men and women, while men are similarly ordered to gaurd their modesty and shame, the verse for men is much shorter and is not as emphatic in regards to hiding beauty, (the verse for women has been cut off at the end as I have indicated, but the verse for men was given in full). Ergo, it is clear that the verse places emphasis on a more complete dress for women. Furthermore, it is clear that this verse does not refer to simply hiding private parts (like a bikini for instance would) for this would imply that it would be okay to take even that off in front of the father, their sons, and others as mentioned. clearly it refers to a fuller covering.

Chapter 33: Al-Ahzab (the Confederates)
033.059
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons: that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

The interpretation of this verse should be fairly straightforward, asking women to cover their whole persons with a loose outergarment (jalaabeebihinn).

As to the exact details of the covering, the Sayings and Traditions of the Prophet Mohammed (the Hadith and Sunnah, respectively) have clearly demonstrated that the maximum exposure for believing women is the face and the hands. This is recorded at length in several books of jurisprudence and Hadith. I am currently at college and do not have access to my Islamic Library at home, but If you would like I could certainly send you an e-mail containing some of these evidences to provide further justification, when I get back on sunday.

The opinion of your cousin's brother in law is certainly rare amongst any of the qualified scholars of Islam (the Ulema). And by rare, I mean, there is not one amongst those trained at a recognized school of Islamic Studies that I have ever met (amongst several, believe me) that has shared this opinion, as it clearly runs contrary to various evidences in both the Qur'an and Sunnah.

I know this post is lengthy, but i hope that it conveys enough scholarship (without getting too detailed) to rest this discussion once and for all. I may not be able to presently convince you guys of the virtue of the Hijaab or why i support it, but I hope i have at least laid to rest this rumor that it is an arab custom, rather than an article of Islam.
And God knows best.

lethalfang
06-07-2007, 12:20 PM
If he was a practicing Muslim he would not drink alcohol

What about Christians who drink?

LarougeNY
06-07-2007, 12:20 PM
That would be equivalent to 350 or 400 million Muslims-India has over a billion people. I think it's probably the third largest Muslim country, after Indonesia and Pakistan.

My bad audioaffliction, I got the percentage wrong.
Though, I am 100% positive that India has the second most muslims in the world, and Pakistan most surely does not. India has roughly 450million muslims, placing it second behind Indonesia. I think after India, its either Iran, turkey, or pakistan or bangladesh that has the third most.

chiru
06-07-2007, 12:37 PM
If he was a practicing Muslim he would not drink alcohol

It is not fitting for other people to judge other people's actions in the context of their belief as a whole. It's alright to judge individual actions like "Drinking is bad". However using that to pass judgment on whether or not somebody is a "practicing" or non practicing Muslim is neither the place of the individual nor a group. Rather, judging belief is the right of God and God alone.

galain
06-07-2007, 02:54 PM
I know this post is lengthy, but i hope that it conveys enough scholarship (without getting too detailed) to rest this discussion once and for all. I may not be able to presently convince you guys of the virtue of the Hijaab or why i support it, but I hope i have at least laid to rest this rumor that it is an arab custom, rather than an article of Islam.
And God knows best.

Thank you for putting me straight Chiru and for your post above. I'll be sure to not state things so categorically next time when I don't have personal experience with the subject.

My 'cousin in law' (I guess that's what he is) seemed a fairly moderate fellow from Singapore. I'm not sure why he told me what he did because I know he's a very dedicated scholar, but thank you again for the heads up.

katarddx
06-07-2007, 05:35 PM
Amer Delic (USA)is muslim. so what?

J-man
06-07-2007, 06:06 PM
If he was a practicing Muslim he would not drink alcoholI was thinking the same thing. Espically with all of his flare and burts of outrage and his whole persona. Not very muslim

chiru
06-07-2007, 07:32 PM
Thank you for putting me straight Chiru and for your post above. I'll be sure to not state things so categorically next time when I don't have personal experience with the subject.

My 'cousin in law' (I guess that's what he is) seemed a fairly moderate fellow from Singapore. I'm not sure why he told me what he did because I know he's a very dedicated scholar, but thank you again for the heads up.

No, I thank you for your candor in all of this, and tolerating the ******bagitry in my first response. Yah, I'm not sure why either, although there are small minority factions im sure, it could so happen that your "cousin in law" is of this minority.

But either way once again thanks for reading my exhaustingly long post and understanding!

FarFed
06-07-2007, 10:54 PM
ends in "ian" = Armenian

Yup, Aghassian is Armenian.

SoBad
06-07-2007, 11:32 PM
Every story is different.

Sampras' Greek legacy was recently widely popularized when he visited the country recently. So, he's "ok" with his Greek roots.

Maybe Agassi is too personal and does not want to talk about it, that makes him "ashamed"? Don't forget, his father was very aggressive with Andre's tennis upbringing, maybe that had something to do with it. The point it is, it's personal, it's their life, their story.

Life and story of celebrities is subject to public discussion. I was merely pointing to a thread that discusses Andrew Agassi's shame of being an Iranian Arab, I was not attempting to claim credit for the revelation myself.

Mickey Finn
06-08-2007, 12:04 AM
This thread is incredibly insulting to Safin. Russia is a country of many ethnicities and religions, as is the United States. Safin comes from a traditionally Muslim region, but Soviet times changed everything in Russia.

Racism is a problem in Russia today, and people from "non-Slavic" regions face unfair judgements. When Safin won the U.S. Open, he was made an honourary "Russian" in an official ceremony. The implications, in my view, were insulting to Marat -- being Tatar is no better or worse than being "Slav."

In my view, Marat has no more need to answer questions about religion than would Sharapova, Dementieva or Myskina. Regarding "So Bad's" remarks about Agassi, I see no more reason to say he is ashamed of his roots than to say Roddick, McEnroe or Connors are ashamed of their roots.

My guess is that "So Bad" is trolling. Is that your photo, "So Bad?" Who is it really? Not funny.

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-08-2007, 04:10 AM
Religious affiliations should not be a concern of this message board.

True...but I wold not be surprised if some non-Muslim Safin fans "suddenly" decide to dislike him. You know how that goes.

goober
06-08-2007, 05:31 AM
It is not fitting for other people to judge other people's actions in the context of their belief as a whole. It's alright to judge individual actions like "Drinking is bad". However using that to pass judgment on whether or not somebody is a "practicing" or non practicing Muslim is neither the place of the individual nor a group. Rather, judging belief is the right of God and God alone.

Well he has already stated publicly in an interview he is not a practicing Muslim and neither is his father and mother.


Q. In terms of your religious belief, are you of the Islamic faith?
MARAT SAFIN: Yeah.
Q. Do you practice any of the rituals?
MARAT SAFIN: No, no.
Q. Were your parents Islamic?
MARAT SAFIN: Yeah. They don't practice either. Just my grandfather.

WillAlwaysLoveYouTennis
06-08-2007, 07:08 AM
It is unusual to be a muslim when you are Russian

This is so untrue, and simply looking at the CIA's breakdown of countries would tell you so, a large percentage of Russians in Russia and those in their former "satellite" states are Muslim.

And it is a separate thing when speaking of such, as Safin himself said, he is a Russian of Tatar ancestry. Russian is an ethnicity just like any other, and is often pointed out among ourselves just like the US, i.e. "I am a Russian born in Ukraine, or Kazahkstan or whatever". You would not be considered a Kazahk simply because you are born there, you are your ethnicity basically. I think this is even more so stressed because Soviets moved ethnic Russians all over the territories to be "over" the natives peoples as it were.

But I do think the point of religion should be immaterial to tennis, just as many other topics, tennis is tennis, playing is playing, the love of the game so on. What difference should background, religion or such have in it? Davis and Fed cup are what they are, but religion and politics often become inflammatory subjects.

P.S. It's spelled, "tartare" regarding the beef dish.

Eviscerator
06-08-2007, 08:45 AM
I thought it would be interestring to the peoples of this board because Safin is an eccentric character. It is unusual to be a muslim when you are Russian but Safin is cool and more people will get to understand that Islam is not just for mentally sadistic people.

Not to get too political here, but I think only close minded people believe ALL Muslims are Islamic fanatics.
HOWEVER, it will take a much larger effort on the part of normal Muslims and the organizations who represent them to condemn and repudiate the actions of the radicals before the stigma diminishes.

soyizgood
06-08-2007, 10:00 AM
Zidane is an Algerian Muslim that played for France. I don't think that has affected his status as a soccer legend one bit. True fans appreciate the skill, hard work, dedication, character and passion an athlete displays. The same way we should look upon our fellow humans.

Race/religion/sex/eye color/etc. should play no role in judging a person. Unfortunately, there are those that can't or won't look past the obvious. Such people are the sheeple that only do what others tell them to do/act/think and so on.

SoBad
06-08-2007, 10:10 PM
In my view, Marat has no more need to answer questions about religion than would Sharapova, Dementieva or Myskina. Regarding "So Bad's" remarks about Agassi, I see no more reason to say he is ashamed of his roots than to say Roddick, McEnroe or Connors are ashamed of their roots.

Welcome to the forums dude, and chill out. The original post reminded me of another (dumb) thread, so I made a joke with respect to that other thread. In fact, I had posted a link to that other thread in my second post, to avoid any confusion. Let me know if I can do any more to clarify this for you.

FarFed
06-08-2007, 11:39 PM
Life and story of celebrities is subject to public discussion. I was merely pointing to a thread that discusses Andrew Agassi's shame of being an Iranian Arab, I was not attempting to claim credit for the revelation myself.

Can you cite sources where Agassi actually said something about him being ashamed of his family's Iranian roots?

SoBad
06-08-2007, 11:41 PM
Can you cite sources where Agassi actually said something about him being ashamed of his family's Iranian roots?

Can you read my last post in this thread (the one prior to this one here).

diggler
06-09-2007, 06:09 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marat_Safin

Under early life

"He is a Muslim, along with his family."

A few comments

Wikipedia is not always accurate.

He may have been brought up like this, who knows what is the case today.

He had an entourage of beautiful women. I don't know how strict he is.

Who cares if he is?

I don't think it is off limits. There's a lot of stuff here that goes beyond forehands and backhands.

scineram
06-09-2007, 11:02 AM
Raise your hand if you want this stuff out of this board!

Eviscerator
06-09-2007, 12:02 PM
Raise your hand if you want this stuff out of this board!

I actually see nothing wrong with the discussion as it has not gotten out of hand. Granted it might be better in another section, but freedom to discuss matters like this are the cornerstone of a civilized society.

_mats_
06-09-2007, 12:22 PM
phew who cares if he is, or if he's not..

pound cat
06-09-2007, 02:16 PM
[QUOTE=diggler;1504423]A few comments

Wikipedia is not always accurate.

The enrties are submitted by people like the ones who post on this board. No, they are often not accurate, although they're trying to check them.