PDA

View Full Version : Anyone Watched the Bush and Kerry Presidential Debate?


gmlasam
09-30-2004, 06:34 PM
Kerry sure made Bush look like a fool. When Kerry was speaking, Bush had an angry, and confused look to him. Kerry attacked Bush's policies at every angle, and had much stronger arguments.

I'm pretty sure Kerry won this debate.

Sacco
09-30-2004, 07:00 PM
Yes. The whole debate was painful.


Kerry: It's does matter what we say, only what we do. 8)

Bush: We say what we mean, and do what we say. :?

Kerry: If I'm raw... :lol:

Bush: then I'm cooked. :x

Both together: All things being equal and opposite, disregard our words tonight and forever.
:wink: :wink:

Too bad Nader will never be allowed in the debates.

mlee2
09-30-2004, 08:44 PM
Ya, Kerry had names and sources to throw around to back up his arguments while Bush gave out the same statement verbatim (over and over again): "What kind of message does it send to (troops, other nations, etc.) if you change your policies?"

I second the shame that Nader would never be allowed. :-(

tykrum
09-30-2004, 09:24 PM
Yeah it would be great to have Nader there to give more people a reason to basically throw their vote away. I am definitely all for voting for who you think is best candidate, but the polls show the man has no chance of winning a presidential election. I am extremely tired of people that say that Bush and Kerry sound the same, those people should actually listen to what they are saying and what their policies are. Those Nader voters might realize that its Kerry and Nader that have the most in common.

That said, I think the debate was a clear Kerry beatdown of Bush. But of course, there are people out there that have the point that Kerry lies or "flip-flops" driven through their head (which Bush does a DARN good job of doing). Bush kept repeating himself, had nothing of real importance to say except for his 5-pronged (or whatever he said) technique of negotiation with N. Korea, and Kerry had careful, articulate, insightful, factual, and informational points and counterpoints. But anyway, I am getting too riled up.

Max G.
09-30-2004, 11:14 PM
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~anargund/articles/debatesecrets.html

silent bob
10-01-2004, 05:52 AM
No objective observer can have any doubt as to who won that debate.

Unfortunately for Kerry, winning a debate is a lot easier than winning an election.

Unless Bush strips off all his clothes and dances around the stage with one thumb in his mouth and the other in his *****, more than 40% of Americans are still going to vote for whoever is the most conservative candidate, and that ain't Kerry. And a lot of the "undecideds" will vote for whomever their friends are voting. That doesn't leave much room for Kerry to squeeze out a majority in the electoral college - especially with Nader attacking on the opposite front.

Rickson
10-01-2004, 05:57 AM
Kerry's gonna win for sure. Bush's stupidity showed during the debate and the American people will not stand for another 4 years of a stupid tyrant for president.

Benjamin
10-01-2004, 06:09 AM
Kerry won the debate by a great margin but Bush will win the election by a greater margain!!!

I'm not sure why so many people are behind Bush but I call it like I see it.

Even in my county where unemployment has gone from around 4% up to 11% in the last four years, people will vote overwhelmingly for Bush.

Does anyone here believe Bush has EVER taken a public speaking class?

Benjamin

splink779
10-01-2004, 06:39 AM
My favorite part of the debate (besides when bush tried to make himself cry to look sympathetic) was when bush said something like 'we dont need a president that is going to send messed mixages, uh, mixed messages' that was priceless.

Sacco
10-01-2004, 08:06 AM
tykrumó

I donít know where you are getting your misinformation, but letís hit some of the issues between Kerry-Bush-Nader.


For NAFTA and CAFTA: Kerry-Yes, Bush-Yes, Nader-No

For Universal Health Care
Single Payer System: Kerry-No, Bush-No, Nader-Yes

U. N in, U.S. out of Iraq: Kerry-No, Bush-No, Nader-Yes

International Criminal
Court: Kerry-Maybe, Bush-No, Nader-Yes

Living Wage, Not
Minimum Wage: Kerry-No, Bush-No, Nader-Yes


Of course there are some issues Nader-Kerry might agree on now: Nuclear Proliferations Treaties and Test Bans, possibly Abolishing the Patriot Act, though I would venture that Kerry would most likely trim the Patriot Act down toward the minimal rights to basic privacy again, while Nader would just plain abolish the Unconstitutional F**ker.

Sacco
10-01-2004, 08:08 AM
Hereís something I overheard at my local KEY BANK. I was waiting in line for teller, and in the next room I overheard a guy expressing his concern about his stocks and investments to a Key adviser. The guy said he was worried about investing until he knows the outcome of the election. The Key adviser assured him, from his sources, that Bush had already won the election, so no need to wait. They both went on to commiserate about how bad Bush was for Americaís world image, how they in many ways wish he wouldnít win but it was best for their personal profits.

Of course, this is just overheard. Take from it what you will. With DieBOLD electronic voting machines in key states like Ohio pledged to the Republicans by the President of DieBOLD, it doesnít seem such a far stretch for me to believe these types of overheard conversations. But who knows?

thehustler
10-01-2004, 08:17 AM
While universal health care seems like a great idea I don't think we could afford it. Here in Oregon we recently had a chance to vote for universal health care for the state. The only problem was that the amount it would cost would be more than the state budget. We turned it down. If the government can do it right and keep costs down, but still provide everyone with coverage without screwing us over by raising taxes then I'm all for it. But since that last statement would be lost on the government I doubt it would turn out like that.

Sacco
10-01-2004, 08:36 AM
I agree with you, thehustler. It couldn't work on just the state level (it would have to be national), and I don't trust our government (or any government) to handle it either. Throw them all out, and start over, says me.

Although I think some of Nader's basic argument is we curve military spending, etc. and pay it from there. But don't quote me on that, some are more versed in his policy-- I'm just a working man, so sometimes I get it wrong.

Also look at your phone taxes-- over 70% of that money goes to the military/ military spending in the end. Some of that to make more nukes and now mini-nukes, as if America couldn't already blow up the entire world 200times over already. But of course a well trained militia has its uses to.

Cruzer
10-01-2004, 08:37 AM
The Bush/Kerry debate didn't tell anyone anything they haven't heard before from the candidates. I think 97% of the voters have decided who they are voting for and one debate is not going to change anyone's view. Nader is simply too extreme and will always be a fringe candidate. The apparent large block of undecided voters are people who simply don't want to tell anyone who they are voting for because it is none of their business.

I get tired of those hammering Bush about Iraq, Afganistan, North Korea and foreign policy in general. For eight years Clinton did NOTHING in regard to the above and unfortunately for Bush he has had to deal with a lot of messy situations that already existed when in took office in 2000.

Sacco
10-01-2004, 08:55 AM
Cruzer,

I hear what your saying, and on the candidates you may be right. Still I think Nader should be debating with Kerry/Bush. Then we would hear something new at least.

But now if your talking about Iraq you would have to go beyond Clinton to a least father Bush, who failed to handle the problems you're talking about. As for Afghanistan, it also has a long and sorted history of occupation by other countries: Russia, etc. Some of the destruction suppoted by the U.S., and much of it not.

PusherMan
10-01-2004, 08:57 AM
Ohhh debate, rebate...whatever. Bush is gonna get reelected. I'll be back in November to remind y'all how right I was :D

Jonas
10-01-2004, 09:05 AM
Bush will win comfortably in 1 month. The American people simply do not know where John Kerry stands even after the first debate. This decision is way to important to have someone in office that will ALWAYS conform to popular opinion on every issue. Even after a good showing last night, Kerry has too big of a mountain to climb. There is no way John Kerry can win this election unless there is a huge mistake made by Bush/ or his campaign.

Sacco
10-01-2004, 09:16 AM
A huge mistake would be if Bush said he finally found those elusive weapons of mass destruction... in his own back yard. :P

Or better yet-- if Bush said Kerry, himself, is a weapon of mass destruction! Attack him!! :lol:

Brettolius
10-01-2004, 09:52 AM
sordid :D

thejerk
10-02-2004, 09:37 AM
For people who hate the government so much, it's funny that you like Nader, who would give the government complete control over business. Why would you guys want the government to have so much control? I can't help but think that all of you must live with your parents or atleast have no faith in yourselves. Kerry would give away the farm so that the who world could live in harmoney with a weakened America. American schools really suck. Don't any of you people understand socialism/communism? Somebody wrote that Kerry brought facts, well if that person studied independent sources he would realize that Kerry's facts were mostly incorrect. Kennedy had already done everything about Castro that he was going to do before he went to De Galle and Kerry was even wrong about who Kennedy sent to France. Do you guys really want a global test? Look who sits on U.N. security council, did you vote for Seria? Look what socialism has done to Europe, not one of them countries can exist idependently and I'll guarantee the E.U. will collapse in 20 to 25 years. The only way it would be able to compete with us is if you guys or the like minded allow sociallism to bring us down to Europe's impotents. Look what sociallism does to societies, mainly making them effeminate, European women don't even respect their men enough to carry their children.

chad shaver
10-02-2004, 11:58 AM
"American schools really suck."

Really? What sources and information do you have to support this? What are your qualifications to judge? Are you a teacher?

What is your profession? I need to know, so that I can say you suck at it.

thejerk
10-02-2004, 04:17 PM
My sources? Havn't you been reading this thread? My profession, live television. I'm the best I or anyone I've ever worked for has seen. I went to college after being kicked out of 8Th grade. Couldn't quite conform. While in college I volunteered in an adult learning center teaching people to take g.e.d classes. Half the people I tutored had high school diplomas but came in to learn how to read. Apparently reading isn't right up there in the list of things they teach now days. In college I studied journalism and became a flaming right wing libertarian after being once again incapable of conforming. Everybody studyng journalism was a left wing kook job and that is primarily why I started looking at the other side.
By the way, I didn't say that teachers suck. You must feel guilty of something, are you part of the problem? As I noted above, I guess reading isn't important. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't public schools actually spend more money on the bad kids than the good? My friend tutors part time and you should see some of the papers he showed me. Apparently, self esteem is more important than reading, because the papers he showed me were horrible, but the regular teachers would mark them with outstanding comments. And of course liberals think that self esteem, like everything else, can be given and not earned. Public schools suck because they have been overrun by liberal ideology. Glad they couldn't drug the male children for being male when I went.

chad shaver
10-02-2004, 06:00 PM
That is the most rambling post I've seen in a while. I would thank you up front for confirming my suspicions, but I won't go there.

I'm still not sure what your profession is (live television?), but if you think you're the best at it, then I must beg forgiveness for ever doubting you (that's called sarcasm, in case they didn't teach you that in school). I grovel at the feet of the self-proclaimed (notice the hyphen that you never use?) greatest ever in the field of, um, whatever you claim to do.

Looking at your own writing here, I don't see how you're qualified to judge the writing of others. If you'd like, I can send you a list of corrections that you need to make. Perhaps they don't teach punctuation in journalism. Don't bother calling them typos, because consistent errors are not typographical errors. Then again, perhaps everything you wrote above is a massive load of bovine excrement.

"Glad they couldn't drug the male children for being male when I went."

Whatever you say. Anybody else think that sounds like a paranoid schizophrenic? I'm assuming you're talking about ADD/ADHD or something. I hope you are aware that females also have that supposed disorder.

You may not understand this, but when you insult the school system, you're also insulting the people who bust their butts in them everyday. Say I'm part of the problem, if you please. Coming from you, that's a compliment.

Please have your friend take the time to teach you about hyphens and run-on sentences.

chad shaver
10-02-2004, 06:10 PM
I have a few more questions.

You were kicked out of the 8th grade because you couldn't conform? So to what rules were you unable to conform? I bet they were all just out to get you, weren't they?

Did you receive some special dispensation to go straight to college after you were kicked out of (expelled from) school? Did the Dean of the college just suddenly recognize your genius while passing you on the street one day?

Total bovine excrement.

David Pavlich
10-02-2004, 06:30 PM
Nader doesn't need to be in the debates. Anyone that has at least a hint of his politics knows where he stands (more than anyone can say about sKerry).

He is a big government socialist that would do everything in his power to supress business. We'd all be driving tin cans with 2 cylinder engines. We'd have to depend on Canada for our military protection. The disposable income you now use to buy ncodes and Liquid Metals would be sucked up in taxes to pay for universal health care.

There's a reason that Nader gets 2 or 3% of the vote. Think about it.

David

chad shaver
10-02-2004, 06:39 PM
Follow up to your post, David. Anybody know what Nader's net worth is?

Rabbit
10-02-2004, 06:59 PM
About half of what Michael Moore's is. Both of them lie about it.

thejerk
10-02-2004, 07:20 PM
If you want hyphens just look at the last names of democrat presidents and presidential candidates wives. Basically, I worked for a couple years before I went to college. I didn't even have to pay, I was awarded scholarships. That probably really p**es you off. As far as punctuation, sorry, I havn't been in a classroom in something like 15 or 20 years.
Atleast we know that you drug equally, is that it. I was kicked out because listening to pedantic twits was beyond my patience. Attendance wasn't my strong suit.
You say talking about the school system is the same as insulting the teachers. Let me guess "this is Bush's war but I support the troops." Am I close. Are you going to administer the "global test" for his majesty The Great Pumpkin. How about this "This is the wrong war at the wrong time" but he also supports the troops. I wonder do you put your candidate under the same expectations as you put me.

chad shaver
10-02-2004, 07:54 PM
I never argued politics with you. Don't care argue politics with you. Stick to the points.

You're bizarre and rambling. Come back and see me when you can actually argue a point and stay on topic.

thejerk
10-02-2004, 10:15 PM
I was arguing the point. The topic was about debates. I brought up the school system not teachers to explain some of the people wanting to hear Nader. I blame the school system for the lack of understanding about socialism and you get upset. I then proceeded to ramble about other problems associated with socialism/communism. Here's another, look at Russia, they lived under socialism for so long that they are letting the state under Puten take control of their media. Why are they letting it happen? In my opinion, socialism has made them effeminate. In Europe, populations are dropping fast enough to actually damage the social order within just a few more years or decades. After all, you know that tax payers must outnumber pensioners.
When is the last time teachers unions threatened strikes for anything other than money? When do they ever strike for curricular purposes? Why can't I put federal funds allocated for my children into a private school? Even more horrifing, why can't I use those funds for a religiously oriented school? Socialism hates religion, that is why. The teachers union is directly involved in keeping my money tied up in their monopoly.
Kerry is saying he would bow to the nuclear blackmail of North Korea. How is he going to negotiate with the pot bellied pig in North Korea. If schools were worth a thing the people listening would know that communists lie. He talks about coalitions and then says he would deal unilaterally with North Korea. Let asian countries off the hook so that it would be just America against NK. It was Clinton's negotiations, albeit, undermined by Carter, that gave the Pot Belly nukes anyway. Oh well, it ain't the first time Kerry negotiated with communists.
And I guess in this instance unilateralism is o.k.
Did Kerry say he was going to hold a summit to combat international terrorists? It must be that great plan he has, he will talk them into a comma.
Did he say Iraq is wrong war at wrong time, but that everyone else should step in to help fight the wrong war. Ain't it funny that fighting terrorist in Iraq is a distraction from the war on terror.

silent bob
10-03-2004, 02:59 AM
thejerk is wrong about almost everything - except American schools. They really do suck.

The exception that proves the rule is graduate schools. America's are the best in the world, and they are full of foreigners.

My experience is not at all unusual. I graduated from university with a 4.0 GPA and was given a full fellowship to a top Ivy-league PhD programme (economics). I was one of only 4 Americans entering the program (out of maybe 25 students), and 2 of the Americans did not make it passed the first year of coursework. ALL of us got our *****es kicked by the foreigners for about 2 years because we, the best and the brightest America had to offer, were so far behind the Europeans and Indians etc. - particularly when it came to math, and I had a math minor at university!

We Americans were not stupid; in fact, when it eventually came time to award Doctorates and jobs, the Americans generally came out on top. We were just poorly educated going in relative to our foreign counterparts.

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 10:50 AM
jerk,

You're ASSuming that all teachers are member of a teachers' union. I wouldn't know when the last time teachers threatened to strike, because we've never had a strike in my state since I've been teaching, nor have we ever threatened to strike.

Referring back to your previous post, schools do not drug their children. I would hope you are aware that prescriptions are written by doctors and not teachers, administrators or school janitors.

Keep rambling, because I've reported you to Big Brother, and Big Brother is watching you. CITIZENS!!!! DO THE FUNKY CHICKEN!!!!!

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 11:10 AM
Bob,

Interesting that you used the British spelling for program, but used the term "passed" instead of "past".

I'm curious to know how you "generally came out on top" of the heap, when only two of the original four Americans in the program failed to make it out of the first year.

From my experience, the gap between "foreign" students and American students has much less to do with education than it does with work ethic.

Another thing I have discovered over time is that students come into school having picked up the attitude that "our schools suck" from the ignorant and bitter masses, and therefore believe that they should not have to do much to pass.

Please, continue to tell the world how bad our schools really are. I truly hope you succeed in undermining our credibility, so that you can eventually say that you can one day stand up and scream, "See? I told you so!".

Sure, several people will read this and say that I'm just being defensive. But I must pose a question to you all: How long should one sit idly by and be attacked before deciding to defend?

thejerk
10-03-2004, 01:13 PM
You say ignorant and bitter masses, these must be the poeple that didn't go to public school. Why can't kids from public schools compete in spellling-beees.

thejerk
10-03-2004, 01:16 PM
Come-on, I realize that 90% of the problem is parents. The Foreign parents actually expect their kids to learn. They also don't rely solely on public schools.

perfmode
10-03-2004, 01:25 PM
"American schools really suck."

Really? What sources and information do you have to support this? What are your qualifications to judge? Are you a teacher?

What is your profession? I need to know, so that I can say you suck at it.

American schools must really suck. Bush went to two of the country's best universities, harvard and yale, and he came out looking like a high school drop-out.

thejerk
10-03-2004, 03:10 PM
Yea and Swiss schools turn out robots. Listen to Kerry, I dare ya.

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 03:11 PM
Perfmode, good to see you're still maintaining your "ghetto *** site where you can find a lotta sh1t about nothing".

jerk, have fun with your ramblings.

perfmode
10-03-2004, 03:22 PM
Perfmode, good to see you're still maintaining your "ghetto *** site where you can find a lotta poop about nothing".

jerk, have fun with your ramblings.

That's an image. It was taken down in July, two weeks after I got it. The guy who gave it to me used a stolen credit card. All I lost was a gmail invite (boo-hoo).

Sorry Mr. Bush supporter. This November we're getting our country back.

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 04:19 PM
perfmoda and jerk,

I think I get it now. I don't agree with you guys about one thing, so I'm automatically a Bush supporter? So, I guess you're kinda like one of those "either you're with us, or you're against us" types. Seems like we heard Bush say that once, didn't we?

Perhaps you two should go back and point out to me where I said I support Bush.

perfmode
10-03-2004, 04:55 PM
I made fun of Bush's education and you went bezerk.

Btw, how old are you? Do you feel cool arguing over the internet with a 16 year old?

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 05:03 PM
Sorry, pal. I didn't go beRzerk. I'm guessing that if I were disregard you because of your age, you would try to use that against me. But I'm curious about one thing. If you're only sixteen, who is this "we" that you say is going to take "our country back"? You won't be voting. I will give you credit in one regard, however. I do think that you will not be one of those who wastes his right to vote.

Did you happen to read the rest of this thread to see what the actual argument was, or did you just chime in at random?

silent bob
10-03-2004, 07:05 PM
Chad -

10 years abroad has *******ised my spelling, which was never brilliant.

As for my "coming out on top" comment, that is the well-established pattern at all the top PhD programmes in America (at least for economics). The Americans get their tails kicked in the first couple years of coursework whilst they catch up. However, by the end, the ones that make it through generally write the some of the more interesting dissertations and, therefore, are offered some of the best jobs. In other words, we start in the bottom quartile, but if you only judge those that make it through, Americans generally end up in the top quartile or at least top half.

It's a fact, Chad. No need to over-analyse my grammar for clues to why I would want to mislead tennis fans all over the world. I'm actually with you on many of your criticisms of thejerk's views.

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 07:29 PM
I apologize, bob. I took my irritation with others out on you.

I think it is important to remember, though, that the educational systems are different elsewhere. Remember that while we seek to educate all students to the same level, many places only allow the best and brightest to continue past a certain level in academic tracks, while the rest are then moved into vocational programs. When you allow only the "best and the brightest" past a certain level in high school, you can obviously go much farther preparing them for college.

Other countries may be better at making the best and brightest even better and brighter, but we in the USA are charged with trying to give everyone an equal education.

On this point, I will respectfully disagree with you.

You weren't kidding about having your spelling *******ized. You're in England, I'm guessing?

Phil
10-03-2004, 08:20 PM
My sources? Havn't you been reading this thread? My profession, live television. I'm the best I or anyone I've ever worked for has seen. I went to college after being kicked out of 8Th grade. Couldn't quite conform. While in college I volunteered in an adult learning center teaching people to take g.e.d classes. Half the people I tutored had high school diplomas but came in to learn how to read. Apparently reading isn't right up there in the list of things they teach now days. In college I studied journalism and became a flaming right wing libertarian after being once again incapable of conforming. Everybody studyng journalism was a left wing kook job and that is primarily why I started looking at the other side.


Live television? So you're the gofer who runs and gets water, sandwiches, toilet paper, etc. for the "talent" when they need it? What "live" television are we talking about? As far as your schooling, I'm guessing that you rode on the short bus. Don't mistake not conforming with not having a clue.

silent bob
10-03-2004, 09:11 PM
Hi Chad. No worries. I'm actually in Asia.

I think you are right about the different priorities when it comes to the high school level and below. That is very obvious in the UK, which has the highest drop-out rate in the developed world, if I am not mistaken.

Still, I think our universities are asking far less of our undergrads than many universities abroad, particularly in respect to numeracy. I agree with the theory behind liberal arts degrees, but as practiced at most universities, it is a recipe for mediocrity.

Also, even if you judge America's high schools by these different priorities, it seems to me that a disturbing number of them fail to meet even those goals.

I think Americans do not have much respect for the teaching profession. At the university i attended, those getting degrees in education were widely considered the least academically inclined students in the university. It was considered the path of least resistance to a degree for the academically challenged or unmotivated. Are those the people currently educating America's youth?

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 09:28 PM
Bob,

Most teachers do not have under-graduate degrees in education. We actually get them in the subject we plan to teach.

"At the university i attended, those getting degrees in education were widely considered the least academically inclined students in the university. It was considered the path of least resistance to a degree for the academically challenged or unmotivated. Are those the people currently educating America's youth?"

And if that truly is the case, why don't some of the more brilliant, altruistic types who sit in judgement come down and take our place? Now this is the point where I begin to get hostile.

Phil
10-03-2004, 09:29 PM
Still, I think our universities are asking far less of our undergrads than many universities abroad, particularly in respect to numeracy. I agree with the theory behind liberal arts degrees, but as practiced at most universities, it is a recipe for mediocrity.


A common view of engineers or technology types-those who excel at numbers, but can barely hold a coherent conversation. I've heard this comment or variations since I was an undergrad, from nerds who could operate a slide rule in their sleep but couldn't tell you when the War of 1812 began. Where is your "data" that liberal arts study is a disaster?

Why is it, do you think, that America holds a worldwide edge in registered patents, technology advances, is supreme in the computer field, aviation and countless others, and boasts of more Nobel Prize Winners than, probably, the rest of the world combined? There is something else there, Bob, that goes beyond your comments on public schooling. Your analysis of this "problem" is not only shallow and flawed, but it has no basis in reality. Why are those foreigners who, as you said, left you in the dust in grad school, so keen to study in America with, usually, American professors?

chad shaver
10-03-2004, 09:34 PM
Good to hear from you, Phil. I think I've made a mistake in trying to be polite and reasonable.

Phil
10-03-2004, 09:50 PM
No you haven't, Chad. It's just that I'm a pri*k;-)!!

thejerk
10-03-2004, 10:53 PM
Here you go Chad:
http://dir.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/09/25/medicate/index.html
You act as if schools are completely blameless. I think your charge of equal education smacks of egalitarianism. You have ceded my point. Isn't that another way of saying everybody is brought down to the lowest common denominator. What would be wrong with trade schools? Would they make it harder to teach kids that everything is relative. Are you one those jokers that teach kids about unequal distribution of wealth.
Hey Phil, I'll tell you about not having a clue. After I was expelled, I sat at home and studied philosophy, science, classical liturature, and anything else I thought they were teaching in school. When I went to college a couple years later, I didn't have a clue that I would actually be way ahead of the kids who had suffered through public education. I guess classics were to traditional.
Chad, I don't know about your district or school, but if you say political correctness isn't a problem, I think you must have your head up your arse.
You and I both know that there are far to many medicated kids. I suppose the ignorant masses you refered to didn't attend public schools. Just wondering, do you support vouchers or should government schools have a monopoly on education?

thejerk
10-03-2004, 11:07 PM
Well Phil, as to your last post, capitalism. All those people are rewarded. Do you think all those people would have done what they did for altruistic purposes. Why do medical/pharmaceutical patents come mostly from American companies? Probably because people don't want to waste their time researching things that don't pay.

Phil
10-03-2004, 11:11 PM
Hey Phil, I'll tell you about not having a clue. After I was expelled, I sat at home and studied philosophy, science, classical liturature, and anything else I thought they were teaching in school. When I went to college a couple years later, I didn't have a clue that I would actually be way ahead of the kids who had suffered through public education. I guess classics were to traditional.

Fair enough, but I didn't realize that Oscar the Grouch and the rest of the Sesame St. crowd went all that deep into those subjects. Mr. Rogers, MAYBE...Based on your many posts on this board, just about all dealing with politics of some sort, it dosen't seem like you actually HAVE a very solid grounding in philosophy, history or political science. Just my observation-you pretty much regurgitate whatever is the subject of the day on the conservative Websites/weblogs/chatboards. What, exactly did you read at home while Sesame St. and Teletubbies were blaring in the background?

Phil
10-03-2004, 11:32 PM
Well Phil, as to your last post, capitalism. All those people are rewarded. Do you think all those people would have done what they did for altruistic purposes. Why do medical/pharmaceutical patents come mostly from American companies? Probably because people don't want to waste their time researching things that don't pay.


Come again? Of course people are rewarded for their achievements, and why shouldn't they be? That doesn't diminish the achievements themselves.

As for pharmacutical patents, I'm not sure I understand your comment. Are you saying that drugs don't pay? Other than the oil companies, the pharm companies are probably the most profitable enterprises in the world. Check their stocks. Much of the R&D that they do is government funded or at least subsidised. As usual, you're losing me-you seem unable to stick to a topic without radically changing the subject and going all over the map.

thejerk
10-04-2004, 01:48 AM
Don't forget about Big Katsup. Of course drugs pay. When it costs a billion to get a drug to market, it better pay. When I originally replied on this thread, it was because somebody said Kerry brougt the facts. I then wondered about the state of public education, and was then taken off on a tangent by a disgruntled ped-ant.
Here's a fact Kerry ommitted. This is what happened last time a democrat negotiated with North Korea:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n12_v29/ai_20089207
(Notice the fawning reporter. Especially on pg3 )
Kerry also claims that he would buy spent nuclear fuel from Russia faster than Bush. Why would Russia allow such a cash cow to go so fast. Kerry actually believes Russia will ever give up that kind of leverage. I'm guessing he'd send M. Halfbright over there to drink tea with Puten and all would be well.
That was the original subject, the debate, remember.
As far as pharmaceuticals, I'm not a big fan of theirs either....

chad shaver
10-04-2004, 05:42 AM
Jerk,

You have still not gotten around to a. telling me your profession and b. explaining to me how you inexplicably were accepted into college without a high school diploma or G.E.D.

All hail Big Brother! So tell me, do the voices in your head tell you that you're deluded, too?

silent bob
10-04-2004, 06:38 AM
Easy, Phil.

I think you have either misread, misunderstood, or perhaps just deliberately misrepresented my posts.

1) I clearly stated that America's GRADUATE schools are the BEST in the world, which obviously answers your question as to why the foreigners choose to attend them.

2) I never used the word "disaster". I used the word "mediocrity".

3) I never claimed that any of this was a big "problem" for America. In fact, I don't believe that it is a problem because I believe that America can continue to attract all the foreign talent necessary to make up for the deficiencies in its own education system . . .

4) . . . which brings me to my final point: You are actually wrong about the faculties, which are disproportionately represented by foreigners and immigrants. For example, only about 30% of my Ivy-league professors were American-born. Foreigners and immigrants are disproportionately represented in America's high-tech sectors as well. These are well-documented demographics, and this has been the case for quite some time.

Just to be clear, I stand by my statement that undergraduates from America's universities - even in the sciences - emerge less numerate and with less expertise in their chosen field than their counterparts in places like Europe and India.

Does this spell doom for America? No.
Is thejerk a jerk? Yes.

silent bob
10-04-2004, 07:09 AM
Chad - Apologies.

Looking back, I can see how my comment would be offensive to a dedicated, hardworking teacher like I suspect you to be. It wasn't meant in that way.

The point I was trying to make is that we are already relying way too much on altruism. Thank God there are altruistic people that are willing to teach our kids, but if we really care about educating our youth we should make teaching more financially rewarding for people like you.

If we did that, more of our kids would not have to wait until secondary school to encounter teachers like you, because quite a few of those education majors that I described did get jobs in primary education.

AAAA
10-04-2004, 08:44 AM
[quote]
Why is it, do you think, that America holds a worldwide edge in registered patents, technology advances, is supreme in the computer field, aviation and countless others, and boasts of more Nobel Prize Winners than, probably, the rest of the world combined? There is something else there, Bob, that goes beyond your comments on public schooling. Your analysis of this "problem" is not only shallow and flawed, but it has no basis in reality. Why are those foreigners who, as you said, left you in the dust in grad school, so keen to study in America with, usually, American professors?

America invests heavily in education and commerical R&D hence facilities and funding promote success more than probably anywhere else in the world. Hence the reason non-American nationals flock to America to make use of the opportunities that the extensive funding provides.

PugArePeopleToo
10-04-2004, 02:54 PM
Hi Bob,
I don't think it is fair to say other than grad schools our school system sucks. Our school system does not demand students to be able to do esoteric math like those of Asian countries, but our system fosters creative and independent thinking which is more useful in life. Since you are in Asia you must know in order to get into college in China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan students must take an extremely tough college entrance exam. It doesn't matter if you are an A student your entire life, if you did not do well that day, you don't go to college. Asian students' purpose in life for the first 18 years is to pass this test. The pressure on students are tremendous, each year after the exam, it is not uncommon to hear of suicides due to poor testing results. The fact is their school systems are not geared toward teaching and learning, they are geared toward taking this test. The interesting thing is once in college, the rigorous academic demands dropped, students can just coast for the next 4 years. The academic challenges are no more than that of US undergrad schools. I don't find such system to be superior to ours. It may create technical automatons better than we can, but true innovation does not come from such an environment.

NoBadMojo
10-04-2004, 05:19 PM
Pug i dont think the current education system really fosters independent thinking..it seems to foster team playing and being part of 'the group' more than ever before, which to me stifles independence and precludes the uniquely talented from emerging. i quickly quit coaching a hi school tennis team (i'm not a teacher) because of their policy of everyone making the team....most of these kids didnt even want to play tennis....they just wanted to say they are on the tennis team, and were being disruptive of the ones that really were into tennis. i think thats all unfortunate. this all must radically vary from state to state and school system to school system, but i think we've a generation of naive sheep emerging for the most part...these kids are gonna get a shocking wake up call if they ever turn up in the business world. and where i live here in florida, the high school graduation rate is abyssmal with low standards, home schooling is rampant, and attendence is pretty pathetic.

mlee2
10-04-2004, 10:54 PM
Jerk, your posts are by far, the hardest posts to read. Please learn how to use comprehensible sentences and stick to one topic at one time. Please. Not an insult, just a sincere suggestion.

For someone who "graduated from college" and is well-versed in (insert liberal arts course), you sure don't write like you're educated.

jun
10-05-2004, 12:04 AM
I am from South Korea who ended up going to high school in US and going to undergrad as of now.

In average, I think asian high schools are more demanding purely due to academic intensity.

But if top 5~10 highschools in japan or korea were compared to top 5~10 high schools in US, I think american high school could be more difficult. In american high school, you do everything; sports, music, other social activities, study, etc etc etc. And I think by doing that you learn how to balance and prioritize things in your life.

Undergrad, I think american college in average would be more demanding than college in Asia. I know an exchange student from UK, and the student had trouble getting used to work load....So it may even tougher than ones in UK?

Anyways, I think calculator should not be allowed in middle school, and high school. I once tutored a college student who had trouble multiplying 6*8.......And she wasn't exactly "dumb" in other areas....

chad shaver
10-05-2004, 05:08 AM
jun,

Thanks for chiming in here. It never entered my mind to ask if there were someone here with experience in both American and non-American schools.

You're right about the calculators, too.

Thanks again.

Hedges
10-05-2004, 05:39 AM
I think our schools are not so bad. However, the US marketeers teach us to be consumers...the best in the world. The price of capitalism, I suppose. The end result is we grow up to be overcommitted, stressed out, overmedicated, shells of what we could be...because we've been programmed to consume. We are slaves to our need to consume. Like dumb cows, we get 2 weeks of vacation/year! What a joke!

I think our political system sucks. Sure...it could be worse...but it should be better.

I think Bush will win...but for unconstitutional reasons. Most of the country believe religion and government go together. Seperation of church and state is no longer. Bush bases his decisions on a magic spirit that tells him what to do. And *that's* why he'll win. Yikes!

Funny how religion drives our country to war. Things that should make you go "hmmmm".

Fortunately, we'll all be gone in 50 years or so...so, I guess it's really nothing to get all bent out of shape about. Life is really all about tennis, you know!

PugArePeopleToo
10-05-2004, 10:16 AM
Mojo, like jun, I was born in Taiwan, but went to a very good public high school and college in the US. When I started in high school my math and science skills were way above that of average kids, but there were always that 1% native born kids that just blew me away. I think the overly politically correct emphasis on the group was a trend that came and went, and truly talented students do shine in our environment, both academically and in the athletic field. I think we have always worried about our education system. In the 60s, we didn't have enough engineers to counter the growing missile gap; in the 70s Japan was going to take over the world. Critics then pointed out how poor our schools were, and how our kids were dumb, fat, and lazy, and can't compete. Now the same pundits are busy explaining what went wrong in the former USSR and in Japan and at the same time predict how China is going to eat us for lunch, and how our kids are dumber, fatter, lazier and can't compete against the rest of the world. I am not sure why people here and abroad have a tendency to under estimate American. Don't these people ever wonder how is it possible that the same dumb, fat, non-worldly slobs have created the most vibrant and innovative economy the world has ever witnessed? If you ask me, one of the reasons is our education system.

NoBadMojo
10-05-2004, 12:29 PM
thanks for the post Pugs....i only am passing on what i've observed, and stated that i am sure things vary from area to area in the US. i'm older and when i made the basketball team it meant something because you had to earn your way onto the team.then when i became a starter, i was one of the 5 best best in the school, etc etc...now there really isnt so much distinction it seems <in many cases>. anyone can say they are on the tennis team <in many cases because all you have to do is show up for practice and sit in the bleachers> and that stifles kids from working hard to improve IMO, or alternatively them not making the team, thus sending them off to another direction in which they can truly excel. i think what you are maybe referring to is that the US has always welcomed people from other walks of life and have invited them to contribute, as evidenced by you being here right now. you can get the best and the brightest in that manner perhaps.........

chad shaver
10-05-2004, 01:54 PM
Pug,

Nice post.

PugArePeopleToo
10-05-2004, 03:03 PM
Mojo, I think you are right, it differs from school to school. In my situation, both of my kids play lacrosse in high school. Although anyone can be on the team, if you don't have talent you are a bench warmer, and you get to play during garbage time. Not only that, if you are disruptive or are having a negative impact on the team, other kids can vote you out of the team. In another word, you can't just show up and sit in the bleachers, you have to participate and show effort.

While it is true our system attracts the best and the brightest from other countries, I feared I am not one of them. I've met many native born that are smarter, better educated, harder working, not to mention play better tennis than me....but none are as good looking.

NoBadMojo
10-05-2004, 03:16 PM
yea but Pug? you look like a Pug???!! <teasing>. there is always someone smarter and stronger and faster, unless you are roger federer of course:). thanks for your considerate post...it's nice to be a part of a thoughful and considerate post where it is fine to agree to disagree. Ed

jun
10-05-2004, 09:36 PM
I think American education results in much more logical thinking and creative thinking. Most of times, students are welcomed to discuss issues in classes, are free and requred to express their opinions and thoughts. Also they are required to express these in writings whether it's an literature essay or history report.
In addition, they have many other opportunies to display their other qualities such as leadership etc etc.

And some of talented kids are able to really take advantage of the education system, and are able to excel.

On the other hand, in many countries in Asia, you are usually require to focus on academicsonly. As the system has changed, the focus is on logical thinking and understanding rather than brute force memorization. Yet it's far behind the level of Amercian education.....

perfmode
10-06-2004, 02:26 AM
I think American education results in much more logical thinking and creative thinking. Most of times, students are welcomed to discuss issues in classes, are free and requred to express their opinions and thoughts. Also they are required to express these in writings whether it's an literature essay or history report.
In addition, they have many other opportunies to display their other qualities such as leadership etc etc.

And some of talented kids are able to really take advantage of the education system, and are able to excel.

On the other hand, in many countries in Asia, you are usually require to focus on academicsonly. As the system has changed, the focus is on logical thinking and understanding rather than brute force memorization. Yet it's far behind the level of Amercian education.....

Not true. I don't know what school you went to. Most of the schools around here are just like the Asian schools you are describing.

jun
10-06-2004, 07:08 PM
Well
at least when I studied in korea (up until middle school), exams were based on all multiple choices, and a few short answeres that most of us simply memorized. It's been a few years, and I have heard it's changed a little bit. In middle school, I went to school from 8~3:30, and then till 5:30 when I was senior. In high school I would have had to go to school from 8~9pm and 10pm in my senior year. No sports no nothing.

In US, i was forced(?) to write essays in English, and history. I gave presentations and so on. In classes, students questioned and shared opinions (of course only a few of us did it).

I think US education system and asian (at least korean) education is contrasting..

PugArePeopleToo
10-07-2004, 02:05 PM
Perfmode, they are VERY different. Over here, if you are to write a paper about our nationís leader, you can say Bush is a war criminal and if you can back you position up with facts, you will probably get an A. If you take a similar position over there, you will get a good thrashing. If you tell your parents why you were caned in school, you will probably get another one from your parents.

jun
10-07-2004, 07:13 PM
LOL

very good point.. I can't believe how people can get away with doing satired on their own president ON NATIONAL TV. In Korea, they would be seriously "reprimanded". Another great thing is how companies rip each other apart in commercials. In Korea, they will be instantly sued.....It's also surprising that in a country where people sue for mosquito bites, they can't or choose not to sue for such things.
[/quote]

thejerk
10-09-2004, 07:11 PM
mlee2, most of my posts are from work. I get about 15 to 30 seconds to type every 8 or 9 minutes. I sometimes start typing before I check to see where I am at, and then, if I am messed up somewhere I try to squeeze things into context. Not always with success I'll admit. I don't have time to really edit what I am typing because I am also using this computer for other things and I frequently have to reboot. Imagine spending time with a long post and then having to reboot before you post it. Even T connection are unstable.