My 1H BH, Changed from 2H BH

[zhukov97]

After struggle with 2H BH for 2 years, I change to 1H BH. I found 1H BH is more natural to me. Here is the video of my practice. Any comments will be welcome.

I found for me semi-west BH grip like Henin is better than eastern BH grip. I also found change grip earlier before back swing got better results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtULTTm1vnY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4Y1QE0vUIg

Thanks

[rbowser]

It's really good actually. Pretty decent and solid. Just you try and hit high balls, which will strenghten your backhand, but I wouldn't do it. I mean, ur not playing on clay....Anyways, looks nice, but the only thing you should do is don't open your shoulders and try to take the ball earlier. :p

[Mastermind]

I noticed that sometimes you brush up too extremely on the ball, resulting in lack of depth or the ball going into the net. Make sure you can really feel a solid contact with the ball while still brushing up on the ball. Also, on a fair few of the balls, you hit standing almost straight up. Sometimes you can get away with it, but using your legs and getting low to the shot will help, I know from experience, I use a one hander also.

The semi-western grip you use is actually called an extreme eastern grip. I use the same grip. Just a little bit of info for ya! :)

[zhukov97]

It's really good actually. Pretty decent and solid. Just you try and hit high balls, which will strenghten your backhand, but I wouldn't do it. I mean, ur not playing on clay....Anyways, looks nice, but the only thing you should do is don't open your shoulders and try to take the ball earlier. :p

Thanks, rbowser. Actually I am not really understand don't open shoulders stuff. I think I open the shoulders after hitting the ball, so it is more likely follow through. Do you mean I should keep the shoulders close?

[zhukov97]

I noticed that sometimes you brush up too extremely on the ball, resulting in lack of depth or the ball going into the net. Make sure you can really feel a solid contact with the ball while still brushing up on the ball. Also, on a fair few of the balls, you hit standing almost straight up. Sometimes you can get away with it, but using your legs and getting low to the shot will help, I know from experience, I use a one hander also.

The semi-western grip you use is actually called an extreme eastern grip. I use the same grip. Just a little bit of info for ya! :)

Thanks Mastermind.

Yes, I do sometime feel I can not generate pace because I can not get clear contact. This happens more often when I can not get good timing for high balls.

Another question is for high ball at shoulder high, I can not image how bend knees, maybe I need more practice.

semi-western BH grip=extreme eastern grip
http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/gear/general/general.aspx?id=649

[jasoncho92]

It doesnt look like youre taking it back all the way either

[zhukov97]

It doesnt look like youre taking it back all the way either

:-(

Can not understand

[aznspongehead]

Keep a closed stance on the follow through, do not rotate your trunk, keep your body facing sideways (or When I open up on my backhand I lose control of the ball.

[jasoncho92]

:-(

Can not understand
Its ok not to but to get power you should take the racquet back a bit further

[zhukov97]

Keep a closed stance on the follow through, do not rotate your trunk, keep your body facing sideways (or When I open up on my backhand I lose control of the ball.

Sounds good tip, I will give it a try :)

[stormholloway]

One major point to make about your stroke is the way you "open" your chest up toward the court. Sometimes it can't be avoided, but I feel you're doing it a bit too early when you do it.

It's as if you're body is swinging open with the stroke. Trying extending your off arm back to balance you and try to keep balance centered. Simply uncoil. You don't need to rotate your trunk with the swing.

[BreakPoint]

Yeah, I agree. It looks like you're rotating your trunk too much and opening up too soon. Remember that with a 1HBH, the power comes from your arm and shoulder and not from trunk rotation like the 2HBH does. With a 1HBH, once you set up with your closed stand with your hitting arm shoulder pointed in the direction that you want to hit the ball, the only things that should move as you stroke through the ball are your arm and shoulder. Your upper body and trunk should stay still.

Watch some videos of Federer to see how he does it. Here are a couple in slo-mo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WEgyk9v1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9az5qWcLOTk

See how his shoulders and upper body stay still and remain perpendicular to the net until well after he's struck the ball?

[zhukov97]

Thanks stormholloway, BreakPoint

I am just wondering why I need close the shoulder? For gernerating more racquet head speed or get more control because it limit the direction of hitting arm?

I feel I can get more head speed by roating the trunk.

Another reason I rotate trunk maybe because I used play 2H BH for about two years.

[Queensryche]

Your trunks will rotate , however its an effect , not a cause. It occurs when u turn your shoulders to hit. (This occurs because the semi-western grip's contact is further out infront)

Your trunks however should never open to face the net , it will always remain relatively close with respect to the net. This will allow your hitting arm to stay with the line of the shot better. If you turn your torso too much u will hit across the ball rather than through it.

Its similar to hammering a nail on a wall in front of you with your backhand stroke. You use your shoulder as a pivot to drive your arm forward.
Rotate on a cylindrical base from the waist focus on hitting the ball , don't rotate your torso on purpose.

[BreakPoint]

Thanks stormholloway, BreakPoint

I am just wondering why I need close the shoulder? For gernerating more racquet head speed or get more control because it limit the direction of hitting arm?

I feel I can get more head speed by roating the trunk.

Another reason I rotate trunk maybe because I used play 2H BH for about two years.
You aim the direction of your 1HBH by pointing in that direction with the edge of your hitting shoulder as you take your racquet back, and to a lesser extent, your leading foot in that same direction.

The power in the 1HBH comes from the arm, shoulder, and the weight transfer from your back foot to your front foot.

Yes, the reason you rotate your trunk is probably because you are still used to hitting 2HBH's.

[The Gorilla]

rotate your trunk for more power, don't listen to these idiots.

just look at gasguet or kuerten or gaudio.

[pro_staff]

It's kind of redundant for me to say this but...yeah you're opening up your shoulders WAY too much. One thing that my coach told me (he uses 1 hander, I use 2) is that your leading foot (right foot) should point to the side fence. If you look at your foot, it's pointed diagonally towards the front. Pointing your foot to the side will restrict your body from opening up too much.
Just something that might help.

[circusmouse]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said (except Gorilla's comment. Amateurs will struggle to imitate Guga and Gaudio). My only addition is this: you should close your stance a little earlier and close it a little more (i.e. step across your body further with your right foot). This will make it easier to pull the racquet and shoulder back further, which will improve power and consistency. It will also make it easier to make small adjustment steps as the ball approaches.

[zhukov97]

rotate your trunk for more power, don't listen to these idiots.

just look at gasguet or kuerten or gaudio.

Quote from Tennis Magazine
EXTREME EASTERN OR SEMI-WESTERN BACKHAND GRIP

The backhand’s answer to the Western forehand (a reason some refer to this as a semi-Western backhand), the base knuckle of your index finger moves one bevel counterclockwise from the Eastern backhand (clockwise for lefties). It’s an advanced grip that only stronger and more accomplished players tend to use.

PLUS:
Just as with the Western forehand grips, this is a very popular choice with clay-court players. It naturally closes the racquet face more than a regular Eastern backhand and moves the strike zone higher and farther out in front of you, making it more conducive to handling high balls and returning them with topspin. Some of the most powerful backhands in tennis are held with this grip.

MINUS:
Its limitations are similar to those of the Western forehand. It’s not well-suited for low balls, and because it’s a rather extreme grip it’s difficult to make quick changes for a transition to net. Players with this grip usually have long, elaborate swings and prefer the baseline.

PROS WHO USE IT:
Gustavo Kuerten, Justine Henin- Hardenne


So I am wondering why Kuerten rotate his trunck because he used extreme eastern grip, same as me. Here he rotate his trunck to generate more racquet head speed, which is he needed to keep ball deep, but sacrifice some control. For those guys use eastern BH Grip like Federer, they hit through ball more and keep trunck stable to get more control.

Is it make any sense?

Thanks your guys's good comments. Are there any pit and fuals except rotate trunck?

[widmerpool]

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said (except Gorilla's comment. Amateurs will struggle to imitate Guga and Gaudio). My only addition is this: you should close your stance a little earlier and close it a little more (i.e. step across your body further with your right foot). This will make it easier to pull the racquet and shoulder back further, which will improve power and consistency. It will also make it easier to make small adjustment steps as the ball approaches.

agreed. btw, Guga doesn't rotate to generate ANY power. That's just his follow-through. He hits the same classic OHBH they did in the 1920s. He's sideways (and then some). He steps into the ball. His head is down. It has nothing to do with trunk rotation.

One thing I can add: rolling the wrist over is good but I don't understand that exaggerated roll in the follow through. you are going to hurt your arm doing that. maybe it helps you focus on the whole arc but it seems forced once the head has crossed your body.

[herosol]

direction shouldnt be controlled by how much you open up.

1. since your right handed, when hitting a 1HBH when pulling back your racquet the back of your right shoulder is your camera. wherever the back of your right shoulder is pointing is generally the direction the ball will fly, trust me, thats why hitting down the lines with pace require a bigger twist of the body or else just finding the right contact point will just lose pace.

2. your follow through shouldnt be opening up as everyone stated. before you follow through you have a perfect shot. you hit through and up, but once you flail it to the side is where it goes wrong. when you swing it should be parallel to the direction of you are trying to hit.

you don't have to hit extreme powerful 1HBH, if you wanted pace you should be playing with the 2H. using the 1HBH is all about opening more angles for your backhand side. angling the right shot, will do more then just extra pace.

[jamauss]

How does that backhand hold up when there is pressure on it? (e.g. not puffball shots fed from a machine? - or when you're trying to hit the ball to a certain area of the court..?) That's the true test for me and my 1-hander. I can usually just loop the ball back over to the other side with a little topspin and net clearance but the story changes during a match. I'd be more interested in seeing footage of you playing a match with your BH - that's usually more of a true test (IMO, anyway).

[Tennis_Monk]

I went the Opposite from 1hbh to a 2hbh (ok ok. i still use my 1hbh when i am stretched or when i need to slice. I have one of best slices in town.)

I can hit a decent 1hbh but often struggle with pace and definitely cant claim to have a Down The Line Backhand shot in my arsenal.

Switched to 2hbh (played with 1bhbh ever since i started playing tennis. compare that to a 1 week old 2hbh). I can hit DTL with authority and i can take big cuts on backhand shots.

I only played 2 matches so far and my experience is rewarding!

[jamauss]

LOL (10 chars)

[zhukov97]

How does that backhand hold up when there is pressure on it? (e.g. not puffball shots fed from a machine? - or when you're trying to hit the ball to a certain area of the court..?) That's the true test for me and my 1-hander. I can usually just loop the ball back over to the other side with a little topspin and net clearance but the story changes during a match. I'd be more interested in seeing footage of you playing a match with your BH - that's usually more of a true test (IMO, anyway).

Actually, I just changed to 1hbh for 1 week, yesterday I played first time use 1hbh. All performances depend on the timing in match. If the ball is fast even I was in good position and plenty of time I still got trouble. For the slow ball, I can hit it with strong topspin and really surprise my opponent.

Anyway I need more practise to set up behavior reflex. Why I start this thread is I want make sure I have correct technique to practise.

[BreakPoint]

Actually, I just changed to 1hbh for 1 week, yesterday I played first time use 1hbh.
OK, I see. Give yourself another 10 years then. The 1HBH takes a while to master. ;)

[Tennis_Monk]

OK, I see. Give yourself another 10 years then. The 1HBH takes a while to master. ;)

Hopefully it doesnt take 10 yrs for me to get hold of 2hbh (i went from 1hbh to 2hbh). The longer it takes for me , the longer you have to put with Federer and Nadal ;)

[zhukov97]

OK, I see. Give yourself another 10 years then. The 1HBH takes a while to master. ;)

Hehe, it really depends on how high of the bar you set:D

I just need a stable backhands, I have a good forehand and serve;)

[Ultra2HolyGrail]

Hehe, it really depends on how high of the bar you set:D

I dont even think it's possible to master a one hander, well if that includes never shanking shots and hitting the ball a mile long in every which way direction.. Advice to any two hander playing a one hander, hit to their backhand :)

[Slazenger]

One thing I can add: rolling the wrist over is good but I don't understand that exaggerated roll in the follow through. you are going to hurt your arm doing that. maybe it helps you focus on the whole arc but it seems forced once the head has crossed your body.


It isn't going to hurt him. This followthrough is not uncommon in semi-western 1HBH grips.
Someone once posted a picture of a pro here with that grip and his follow through was WAY more extreme than zhukov's.

[ps60]

i am not good at it. But in the first viedo, i'd ask could U lock your elbow and wrist a bit more. and u maybe too bouncy. Great 1hbh pros tend to be very stable with their lower body when hitting BH. U turn too much and a little "too far from the ground" :)

As i said, not good at 1H, just even worse with 2H.

[Slazenger]

First of all, let me congratulate you. You are hitting a good backhand for someone who just switched a week ago.
I like your footwork, your consistent hopping (even with a ball machine) good job! When you play a match it will translate.

As far as your feet go, you are stepping into the shot fine. The only problem I see there is that sometimes, you straighten your legs/pop-up too soon. This interferes with proper coordination of your shot. For instance, you did it on one shot and because you came up too early, your racquet wasn't dropped enough and your shot went into the net.

There were high balls where you had to elevate yourself and it is fine on those balls, but for balls in your strike zone, try to keep down and still as much as possible during contact (which you did on a good number of balls).

On your swing, your takeback is too short. Especially for your grip. A short backswing interferes with racquet acceleration and usually produces a punching motion if you are hitting a flat stroke or a wristy motion if you are hitting with lots of topspin. This is because it forces the player to use the hand to do work the shoulder should be doing.

I can assure you that you will have great difficulty duplicating your shots in the video when playing with a player hitting hard to your backhand.
Get a longer takeback and swing from your shoulder.

A longer takeback should also help with your over-rotation problem because it looks to me like a compensatory action to get more racquet head speed.
I may be wrong but that is what it looks like to me just from watching the video.
Your trunk will rotate after contact, especially after a very big swing but that is just momentum and the rotation isn't much. Definitely not to the point where both shoulders are facing the net.

Rotation doesn't add to your racquet head speed for the 1HBH. It only makes it more difficult for you to achieve clean contact.
You can get away with it now because of slow speed but on fast balls with a lot of spin, you'll be shanking balls left and right.
Build the right habits now and it shouldn't take you 10yrs to get a good 1 hander.

It isn't a hard stroke when taught right. IMO it is easier than the 2 hander to master. And with the progress you have shown in a week, you are on the right track.

Good luck!.

[Slazenger]

i am not good at it. But in the first viedo, i'd ask could U lock your elbow and wrist a bit more. and u maybe too bouncy. Great 1hbh pros tend to be very stable with their lower body when hitting BH. U turn too much and a little "too far from the ground" :)

As i said, not good at 1H, just even worse with 2H.

He shouldn't lock anything. That is not a problem with his swing. He is bouncy on his feet in btw shots and that is great. Don't give him bad advice.

[madmanfool]

I think you open up to soon, you need to swing out more in front.

ok, i watched the second video as well now. You really need to swing longer in front of you. You pull the racquet back to early. If you swing out longer in front of you, you'll see it's much easier to get dept on the ball. You seem to struggle at hitting the ball deep. Pulling back so early is good if you want to hit a short angled cross court shot, but not when you try to hit deep with consistency.

[Slazenger]

I think you open up to soon, you need to swing out more in front.

ok, i watched the second video as well now. You really need to swing longer in front of you. You pull the racquet back to early. If you swing out longer in front of you, you'll see it's much easier to get dept on the ball. You seem to struggle at hitting the ball deep. Pulling back so early is good if you want to hit a short angled cross court shot, but not when you try to hit deep with consistency.


bad advice.

[madmanfool]

bad advice.

stupid response











it's very simple Mr slazenger. If he thinks he doesn't struggle with hitting deep, then there is no need to change, but if he does, i don't see why it would be bad advice.

[zhukov97]

It isn't going to hurt him. This followthrough is not uncommon in semi-western 1HBH grips.
Someone once posted a picture of a pro here with that grip and his follow through was WAY more extreme than zhukov's.

I agree, I did not feel any stretch when do that :)

Another thing is sometime the proprioceptive can fool yourself. The feeling of the location and speed of your arm, wrist, or racquet is not true sometime, but from the video you can see the exactly location and movement

[zhukov97]

On your swing, your takeback is too short. Especially for your grip. A short backswing interferes with racquet acceleration and usually produces a punching motion if you are hitting a flat stroke or a wristy motion if you are hitting with lots of topspin. This is because it forces the player to use the hand to do work the shoulder should be doing.



Thanks, Slazenger. Just onething, I am a little bit confused. Is there difference between rotate shoulder and rotate trunk? Do you mean I still need rotate shoulder to accelerate the arm like in 2HBH?

[BreakPoint]

Advice to any two hander playing a one hander, hit to their backhand :)
That's exactly how I win a lot of my matches as my one-hander is better than most guy's two-handers. Think Federer versus Roddick or Hewitt. ;) :D

[Mastermind]

That's exactly how I win a lot of my matches as my one-hander is better than most guy's two-handers. Think Federer versus Roddick or Hewitt. ;) :D

That's how I win a lot of my matches too. I make people look like fools sometimes.

[Queensryche]

I have no idea why people ask you to rotate your trunk as though its an independent movement.

As long as you close off your shoulders with your chin over your hitting shoulder your trunk will turn to to match your shoulder rotation at a lesser degree. This is not belly dancing whereby you keep your upper body stationary and sway your hips.

Just keep it simple and initiate the turn by aligning your chin to your hitting shoulder while maintaining eye contact on the ball. Its a simple unit turn that will coil by itself when you do so.

And man some of you people need to stop ripping each other's throats out

[Slazenger]

Thanks, Slazenger. Just onething, I am a little bit confused. Is there difference between rotate shoulder and rotate trunk? Do you mean I still need rotate shoulder to accelerate the arm like in 2HBH?

Forget rotation. Your body will rotate a bit but as I wrote it is as a result of momentum, especially after a big swing. It is not something you consciously do.

Power in the one handed backhand comes from stepping into the ball and the shoulder.
Take your racquet back longer. You should feel the 'stretch' in your shoulder and then simply release. Forget about rotation.

[The Gorilla]

well if your arm goes from being behind you to being in front then so must your shoulder,

and unless you're a transformer or something your torso must rotate to get your shoulder there,

so logically the more effort you put into rotating your torso the quicker your shoulder will rotate and the quicker your arm will swing.

A kinetic chain if you will ;)

[Slazenger]

Oh dear lord. Do you even hit a 1hBH??

Shoulder rotation is NOT a component of a properly executed 1HBH. This is not a 2 hander.
The stroke is very simple. All Zhukov needs to do is to take his racquet back further, this will force him to swing from his shoulder.

Look at this clip of Justine hitting backhands:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaoUTOnx-IM

[The Gorilla]

well seeing as she started standing sideways to the net and finished with her torso and shoulders facing the net, I'm going to say you're wrong.
;)

[Slazenger]

Her shoulders never open to the point where she is parallel to the net but feel free to hit your 1hander like that ;)

[The Gorilla]

her shoulders do open though, they are rotating both before and after the arm moves.

What is your argument exactly, that for no particular reason you just shouldn't use your larger muscle groups?That you just shouldn't hit the ball any where near as powerfully as you're capable of?That you should hold back?

[Queensryche]

I'm a tad blurred by the discussion here.

In order to take your racquet back "further" or create a longer swing line as u mentioned Slazenger , doesn't that dictate the use of a greater shoulder turn.

the arm has to come from an inside out position from the left to the right side of the body to initiate clean contact with the ball. The shoulder line formed in the coiling of a good 1hbh often goes past perpendicular to the baseline/net (often referred as the chin to hitting shoulder analogy) and would almost always rotate out to square off the face to the incoming ball , especially so for a more extreme BH grip.

The resultant coil will naturally uncoil itself and by no means should one consciously and forcefully uncoil for more power ( i did note this in an earlier post here) but i don't understand how can the shoulders not rotate out to hit the 1h BH. (do note again this is done naturally)

I'm a student of the game myself and i definitely do not want to get into a heated discussion on this board , but do correct me and if possible , explain to me if i'm wrong here.

[Slazenger]

I'm a tad blurred by the discussion here.

In order to take your racquet back "further" or create a longer swing line as u mentioned Slazenger , doesn't that dictate the use of a greater shoulder turn.

Precisely. This is one of the things that is lacking in zhukov's video, which is why I brought it up.

the arm has to come from an inside out position from the left to the right side of the body to initiate clean contact with the ball. The shoulder line formed in the coiling of a good 1hbh often goes past perpendicular to the baseline/net (often referred as the chin to hitting shoulder analogy) and would almost always rotate out to square off the face to the incoming ball , especially so for a more extreme BH grip.

The resultant coil will naturally uncoil itself and by no means should one consciously and forcefully uncoil for more power ( i did note this in an earlier post here) but i don't understand how can the shoulders not rotate out to hit the 1h BH. (do note again this is done naturally)

I'm a student of the game myself and i definitely do not want to get into a heated discussion on this board , but do correct me and if possible , explain to me if i'm wrong here.


Queensryche, you've got it.
Just as I've said in my previous posts, there will be some rotation but it is an effect, not a cause.
When I say 'shoulder rotation is not a component of a properly executed 1HBH' that's exactly what I mean.
You do not consciously rotate your shoulder when hitting a 1 hander for racquet head acceleration, like you do a 2 hander.

To support the acceleration of the racquet in a 1 hander, the body weight should be shifted strongly to the forward leg at the start of the stroke phase. (this weight transfer occurs earlier than in a forehand).
The upper body is turned only to the point where the axis of the shoulders points in the direction of the shot.
The lateral position of the feet and body should be maintained right through the moment of contact in order to get the best possible hit.

Given that the OP just switched from a 2 hander, I think it is important to mention this because from his clip you can see he is over-rotating.

Gorilla is just being a tard, that's all ;)

[The Gorilla]

Precisely. This is one of the things that is lacking in zhukov's video, which is why I brought it up.





[QUOTE]Just as I've said in my previous posts, there will be some rotation but it is an effect, not a cause.
When I say 'shoulder rotation is not a component of a properly executed 1HBH' that's exactly what I mean.
You do not consciously rotate your shoulder when hitting a 1 hander for racquet head acceleration, like you do a 2 hander.


seeing as shoulder turn, not to mention hip turn, precedes the movement of the arm, I don't understand how you possibly came to this conclusion.


To support the acceleration of the racquet in a 1 hander, the body weight should be shifted strongly to the forward leg at the start of the stroke phase. (this weight transfer occurs earlier than in a forehand).
The upper body is turned only to the point where the axis of the shoulders points in the direction of the shot.
The lateral position of the feet and body should be maintained right through the moment of contact in order to get the best possible hit.


yeah, angular and linear momentum aren't mutually exclusive.


Gorilla is just being a tard, that's all ;)

You don't want to go down this road, believe me.



It's obvious you don't understand the stroke or it's components, or even rudimentary tennis biomechanics, judging by what you have said I'm guessing your opinions are based on your experiences of hitting a one hander.Evidently you used to take to short a backswing,someone advised you to take a bigger backswing, which led to greater shoulder turn, you just didn't understand how or why it worked that's all.

I don't think you should post anymore advise though.

[Slazenger]

seeing as shoulder turn, not to mention hip turn, precedes the movement of the arm, I don't understand how you possibly came to this conclusion.

yeah, angular and linear momentum aren't mutually exclusive.

It's obvious you don't understand the stroke or it's components, or even rudimentary tennis biomechanics, judging by what you have said I'm guessing your opinions are based on your experiences of hitting a one hander.Evidently you used to take to short a backswing,someone advised you to take a bigger backswing, which led to greater shoulder turn, you just didn't understand how or why it worked that's all.

I don't think you should post anymore advise though.

SMH! Gorilla, instead of spuriously trying to discredit my post, why don't you 'enlighten' us on the the use of shoulder rotation in a 1 handed backhand?

Do you feel, that the OP is correctly using shoulder rotation on his 1 hander?

Do you feel shoulder rotation as it applies to the 2 handed backhand, should be carried over to the 1 handed backhand?


You don't want to go down this road, believe me.

Bring it ape!

[The Gorilla]

SMH! Gorilla, instead of spuriously trying to discredit my post, why don't you 'enlighten' us on the the use of shoulder rotation in a 1 handed backhand?

I already have.

Do you feel, that the OP is correctly using shoulder rotation on his 1 hander?

I'll take a look at that video when I get the chance.

Do you feel shoulder rotation as it applies to the 2 handed backhand, should be carried over to the 1 handed backhand?

Now you're putting words in my mouth.

[Slazenger]

I'll take a look at that video when I get the chance.


:rolleyes: SMH you haven't even looked at it.

[The Gorilla]

:rolleyes: SMH you haven't even looked at it.

no, I just noticed that someone was giving bad advice

[Slazenger]

no, I just noticed that someone was giving bad advice

Regarding a video you didn't even bother to watch

[kck123]

Um...you guys need to take this to a UFC Octagon and get it over with. Please post the video on youtube.com so we can all analyze who has the best armbar.

[habib]

no, I just noticed that someone was giving bad advice

Yeah, you're right, actually. Quite a few people were giving him bad advice by telling him to rotate his trunk. On a 1hbh, your torso should rotate only as a consequence of your shoulder pulling forward and your arm coming around. Maybe you should, you know, learn some tennis.

[habib]

[SIZE="4"]her shoulders do open though, they are rotating both before and after the arm moves.
The shoulders only open and rotate after the arm has begun to come forward and around, not vice versa.

What is your argument exactly, that for no particular reason you just shouldn't use your larger muscle groups?That you just shouldn't hit the ball any where near as powerfully as you're capable of?That you should hold back?


His argument is actually the exact opposite - power on the 1hbh comes from your legs, which happen to contain the largest muscle group in your entire body. It certainly doesn't come from a rotation of your torso, which, aside from your chest, is just a large collection of small muscles.

[The Gorilla]

The shoulders only open and rotate after the arm has begun to come forward and around, not vice versa.

that's just plain wrong.

His argument is actually the exact opposite - power on the 1hbh comes from your legs, which happen to contain the largest muscle group in your entire body. It certainly doesn't come from a rotation of your torso, which, aside from your chest, is just a large collection of small muscles.


well, no, you're wrong there, if you just take a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49swrZyIn-4

you'll seee that the torso rotates as a unit, that is the hips and the shoulders rotate at the same time.

If the arm moved independantly of the upper torso, the shoulders wouldn't turn, yet they do in this video.If the arm and shoulder moved independantly of the lower torso, then the hips wouldn't turn, yet it can clearly be seen here that they do.And all move at the same time.

There is no logic to your argument, why shouldn't you use both angular and linear momentum?

[The Gorilla]

Regarding a video you didn't even bother to watch

regarding technical fundamentals.

[BreakPoint]

Quite a few people were giving him bad advice by telling him to rotate his trunk. On a 1hbh, your torso should rotate only as a consequence of your shoulder pulling forward and your arm coming around. Maybe you should, you know, learn some tennis.
I agree. Torso rotation only applies to the 2HBH, NOT the 1HBH.

Just check out these videos of Federer again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WEgyk9v1g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9az5qWcLOTk

See how his shoulders and upper body stay still and remain perpendicular to the net until well after he's struck the ball? The power comes from the uncoiling of the arm and shoulder upwards and outwards, not from rotating the trunk.

Slazenger is correct. Gorilla is not.

[The Gorilla]

you are incorrect, and the video of tommy haas I posted is proof.

[The Gorilla]

What is your argument exactly Breakpoint, Slazenger and habib?That you should ignore your capacity to develope angular momentum?You just shouldn't hit the ball any where near as powerfully as you're capable of?That you should hold back?

[The Gorilla]

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/201/

Backhand Forward Swing: The biggest change in the backhand stroke mechanics has been the development of the two-handed backhand. Most backhands are hit with a closed stance, therefore the same mechanical principles (development of linear and angular momentum) explained earlier for the forehand stroke can be applied to the backhand stroke. A two-handed backhand can be performed with an open stance, but once again the player will not benefit from the development of linear momentum. Is one type of backhand better than the other? To date, there is no conclusive research data showing that a two-handed backhand is better than a one-handed backhand. Groppel (1992) suggested that both types of backhand, if executed properly, are conducive to optimal performance. But he also believes that the two-handed backhand could be an extremely powerful and useful shot for several reasons. It is easier to learn because it uses fewer body parts (arms work as a unit), is easier for the development of topspin, requires less strength, and the reach is similar to the one-handed backhand when properly positioned. In a study by Giangarra et al. (1993) the electrical activities of selected forearm muscles were recorded during the performance one and two-handed backhand strokes of two groups of 14 players. Surprisingly, no significant differences in the muscle activities were found between the two styles of backhands with the exception of increased activity of the pronator teres muscles during the acceleration phase of the two-handed backhand.

That seems pretty conclusive to me.Apologies in writing please.

[BreakPoint]

you are incorrect, and the video of tommy haas I posted is proof.
Wrong. Haas also keeps his shoulders closed until well after he has struck the ball. He also does not use trunk rotation to generate power. The power is coming from the uncoiling of his arm and shoulder.

Believe me, I know how to hit a 1HBH. I have the best and most powerful one in town.

[The Gorilla]

Wrong. Haas also keeps his shoulders closed until well after he has struck the ball. He also does not use trunk rotation to generate power. The power is coming from the uncoiling of his arm and shoulder.

Believe me, I know how to hit a 1HBH. I have the best and most powerful one in town.

Wow, I am so impressed.

I'm not going to argue with you over the video because you have obviously decided to see only what you want to see.

I have however proved that that torso rotation is the same on a 1 hander as on a two hander with peer reviewed biomechanical analysis in my last post.

Argue with them.

[habib]

that's just plain wrong.



well, no, you're wrong there, if you just take a look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49swrZyIn-4

you'll seee that the torso rotates as a unit, that is the hips and the shoulders rotate at the same time.

If the arm moved independantly of the upper torso, the shoulders wouldn't turn, yet they do in this video.If the arm and shoulder moved independantly of the lower torso, then the hips wouldn't turn, yet it can clearly be seen here that they do.And all move at the same time.

There is no logic to your argument, why shouldn't you use both angular and linear momentum?

This video perfectly illustrates my point and is completely contradictory to yours, so I'm not sure why you're posting it. First of all, you have some comprehension problems if all you've gotten out of our arguments is that "the arm moves independently of the torso." Watch the Haas clip again - the arm begins to pull forward prior to any torso movement, and any torso rotation occurring afterwards (which is really minimal, as he ends up at a 3/4 turn to the net - not even fully opened) is initiated by the legs. Let's just agree that you don't know what you're talking about and move on.

[habib]

What is your argument exactly Breakpoint, Slazenger and habib?That you should ignore your capacity to develope angular momentum?You just shouldn't hit the ball any where near as powerfully as you're capable of?That you should hold back?

You don't even know what angular momentum is, do you?

[habib]

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/201/

That seems pretty conclusive to me.Apologies in writing please.

Yes, that statement conclusively demonstrates that there is no significant difference in forearm muscle activity during the 2 and 1 handed backhand stroke. How you think this is relevant to anything said so far in this thread is beyond me, as basic tennis mechanics appear to be beyond you.
Wow, I am so impressed.

I'm not going to argue with you over the video because you have obviously decided to see only what you want to see.

I have however proved that that torso rotation is the same on a 1 hander as on a two hander with peer reviewed biomechanical analysis in my last post.

Argue with them.
Actually, just about all you've proven is that you have serious deficits in the areas of reading comprehension. Now, I want you to go back and focus on the first line of the highlighted paragraph which you posted:
"In a study by Giangarra et al. (1993) the electrical activities of selected forearm muscles..."

OK? Now explain to me how that paragraph applies to anything we've discussed. It doesn't. Q.E.D.

Edit: PS: Apologies in writing.

[The Gorilla]

You don't even know what angular momentum is, do you?

angular momentum is momentum generated from rotating about a fixed point, in this case, your torso.

This is childish.

yes, I misread that report, I can't wait for your gloating insults everytime I confront you with an unanswerable question.

[BreakPoint]

http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/201/

That seems pretty conclusive to me.Apologies in writing please.
They recorded the movements of the forearm muscles. What does that have to do with the rotation of the trunk? :confused:

[The Gorilla]

This video perfectly illustrates my point and is completely contradictory to yours, so I'm not sure why you're posting it. First of all, you have some comprehension problems if all you've gotten out of our arguments is that "the arm moves independently of the torso." Watch the Haas clip again - the arm begins to pull forward prior to any torso movement, and any torso rotation occurring afterwards (which is really minimal, as he ends up at a 3/4 turn to the net - not even fully opened) is initiated by the legs. Let's just agree that you don't know what you're talking about and move on.


well, you just admitted he rotated his torso so lets jsut agree that I'm right.

[BreakPoint]

angular momentum is momentum generated from rotating about a fixed point, in this case, your torso.

Sure, trunk rotation, and thus, angular momentum might help if you want to hit the ball so that it spins around your body like the Earth revolves around the Sun because that's where the angular momentum would go. But if you want to hit the ball out and away from your body towards the other side of the court, it's best to keep your trunk still.

[BreakPoint]

well, you just admitted he rotated his torso so lets jsut agree that I'm right.
No, you're not right. He only opened up AFTER he struck the ball. He DID NOT rotate his trunk INTO the shot to generate power as you keep telling the OP to do.

[habib]

angular momentum is momentum generated from rotating about a fixed point, in this case, your torso.
In point of fact, in the case of a one-handed backhand the "fixed point" is your shoulder, and your arm the lever.

This is childish.

yes, I misread that report, I can't wait for your gloating insults everytime I confront you with an unanswerable question.

You've yet to confront me with any unanswerable questions, nor do I plan to gloat. I do, however, plan to correct you whenever I encounter any more of this nonsense.

[fgs]

i simply can't miss the chance to agree with breakpoint:D . there should be no torso rotation on the 1hbh as opposed to 2hbh. it is even common practice to have your players (in the learning process of course) pull their arms apart - like the right one swinging foreward to hit the ball and the left one swinging backwards towards the fence, in order to learn not to turn your shoulders (and torso) while hitting the ball.
the torso rotation on a 2hbh basically appears on left-hand dominant strikers (currently about 95% - for righthanders of course) and it would basically resemble the forehand with the left hand. "it's easy if you try".

[habib]

well, you just admitted he rotated his torso so lets jsut agree that I'm right.

Yes, I admitted that his torso begins to open after he's already begun the swing. Since this is an understandably difficult concept for you to absorb, I'll break down the difference:

Your argument is that torso rotation initiates the swing.

The truth is that the swing causes the torso rotation - as a consequence.

Elementary, really.

[The Gorilla]

Yes, I admitted that his torso begins to open after he's already begun the swing. Since this is an understandably difficult concept for you to absorb, I'll break down the difference:

Your argument is that torso rotation initiates the swing.

The truth is that the swing causes the torso rotation - as a consequence.

Elementary, really.

just to clarify our terms, what exactly would you characterise as the swing, seperate from any shoulder rotation.

[habib]

just to clarify our terms, what exactly would you characterise as the swing, seperate from any shoulder rotation.

Not sure I completely understand what you're saying, but the "swing" itself I would qualify as the arm actually swinging the racquet at the ball. In a 1hbh, said swing occurs around the anchor point that is your shoulder. The only reason your torso opens at all on this shot is that the momentum generated by your shoulder pulling forward and your arm coming around ("swinging") pulls it open as an after-effect, much like the after-effect of a forehand, for example, is your arm eventually wrapping around your body.

[The Gorilla]

Not sure I completely understand what you're saying, but the "swing" itself I would qualify as the arm actually swinging the racquet at the ball. In a 1hbh, said swing occurs around the anchor point that is your shoulder. The only reason your torso opens at all on this shot is that the momentum generated by your shoulder pulling forward and your arm coming around ("swinging") pulls it open as an after-effect, much like the after-effect of a forehand, for example, is your arm eventually wrapping around your body.



ok, well let me ask you this question then, logically, wouldn't you only gain power by rotating your torso?

[BreakPoint]

ok, well let me ask you this question then, logically, wouldn't you only gain power by rotating your torso?
No, you gain power by swinging your arm, rotating your shoulder (upwards, not by opening up), and by transferring your weight from the back leg to the front leg.

[The Gorilla]

No, you gain power by swinging your arm, rotating your shoulder (upwards, not by opening up), and by transferring your weight from the back leg to the front leg.

in addition to this why wouldn't you rotate your hips, then your upper torso?

[habib]

ok, well let me ask you this question then, logically, wouldn't you only gain power by rotating your torso?

Not at all, since it depends entirely on the mechanics of the shot. For example, you could compare the mechanics of the 'classic' and 'modern' forehand, which in effect differ in a manner similar to how the mechanics of a 1h and 2h BH changes.

The classic forehand, involving a closed stance and an open grip (by which I mean eastern or continental, and with little room for error), generated power by virtue of linear movement into the ball - stepping forward, basically. The modern forehand, by contrast, uses a more closed grip and a more open stance, which allows it to generate power by driving upwards.

I don't see why you would, logically, only gain power by rotating your torso. With the mechanics of the 1hbh, rotating your torso doesn't do much except pull you around and out of the contact zone way too early (notice how the OPs balls kept landing short), rather than allowing you to extend into and through contact as you should be doing. Generating power through linear motion into the ball and swinging your arm with your shoulder as the point of rotation allows you to bring the racquet straight forward and through the ball, which is ideal.

[BreakPoint]

in addition to this why wouldn't you rotate your hips, then your upper torso?
For the same reason why you want to keep your head still and you don't break dance while you hit through your shot. The more parts of your body that are moving the less control you have of your shot. By keeping your body still you gain more precision and can hit the ball to exactly where you want it to go. When you aim and shoot a rifle or a bow and arrow, don't you try and keep everything as still as possible to gain accuracy? You don't jump up and down nor rotate your body do you? It's the same with hitting one-handed backhands.

[The Gorilla]

For the same reason why you want to keep your head still and you don't break dance while you hit through your shot. The more parts of your body that are moving the less control you have of your shot. By keeping your body still you gain more precision and can hit the ball to exactly where you want it to go. When you aim and shoot a rifle or a bow and arrow, don't you try and keep everything as still as possible to gain accuracy? You don't jump up and down nor rotate your body do you? It's the same with hitting one-handed backhands.



the same could be said of the forehand.

[The Gorilla]

Not at all, since it depends entirely on the mechanics of the shot. For example, you could compare the mechanics of the 'classic' and 'modern' forehand, which in effect differ in a manner similar to how the mechanics of a 1h and 2h BH changes.

The classic forehand, involving a closed stance and an open grip (by which I mean eastern or continental, and with little room for error), generated power by virtue of linear movement into the ball - stepping forward, basically. The modern forehand, by contrast, uses a more closed grip and a more open stance, which allows it to generate power by driving upwards.

I don't see why you would, logically, only gain power by rotating your torso. With the mechanics of the 1hbh, rotating your torso doesn't do much except pull you around and out of the contact zone way too early (notice how the OPs balls kept landing short), rather than allowing you to extend into and through contact as you should be doing. Generating power through linear motion into the ball and swinging your arm with your shoulder as the point of rotation allows you to bring the racquet straight forward and through the ball, which is ideal.

well, if, as you say, the torso makes a three quarter turn towards the net anyway, I don't see why the finish should be affected.Why would it cause you to pull across the shot?If you swing from the shoulder your arm is rotating about a fixed point, if you rotate the torso as well then the arm is still swinging about a fixed point-your spine.

[habib]

well, if, as you say, the torso makes a three quarter turn towards the net anyway, I don't see why the finish should be affected.Why would it cause you to pull across the shot?If you swing from the shoulder your arm is rotating about a fixed point, if you rotate the torso as well then the arm is still swinging about a fixed point-your spine.

Because when you swing from the shoulder your arm is travelling along an entirely different trajectory - one which takes it through the contact zone linearly. When you swing by rotating your torso, your arm travels along a trajectory which takes it across your body, brushing against the contact zone laterally and then pulling it out, and generating compartively little pace.

Watching the OP's video, you can actually see how his racquet only pulls across, rather than through, the contact zone, resulting in short, loopy shots. (Incidentally OP this is probably something you should work on :-) )

As regards the whole "3/4 torso turn" thing, don't keep bringing that up as some sort of general rule. That's simply how far Haas rotated his torso after the shot. Federer's torso, for example, stays almost completely perpendicular to the net throughout the shot. In addition, don't confuse the torso rotation which result FROM the swing with the torso rotation which PULLS the swing. Just because both may see the torso end up in a similar position, don't assume that doing the former vs the latter won't affect your stroke - it will - because of how the torso rotation would actually pull the racquet, as opposed to how the racquet would pull the torso.

[fgs]

the gorilla,
may i point out that the forehand and the backhand are not symmetrical strokes in relation to your body. while on the fh you'll have the hitting shoulder coming from behind, on the bh it's obviously in front, so there are different techniques and hence different interactions of the body parts. habib has gone quite much into detail already. on the 1hbh your hips and shoulders are supposed to give you a stable operation base, so they should not turn more than 45degrees from end of backswing to end of followthrough. this rotation is rather a consequence of the followthrough which it should not limit, rather than providing rotational power as in the forehand.

[habib]

the same could be said of the forehand.

True, except that the biomechanics involved in the two shots are completely different. The backhand is a far more natural and efficient motion, whereas the forehand is almost a fight with your body to get your racquet out front (though it generally feels more natural because the way the arm moves on the forehand has innumerable correlaries to everday life). As a result, similar mechanical elements have different effects.

As just one example, the mere fact that on a forehand your hand is more or less behind the racquet, lending it additional support which the backhand lacks, allows you to do things with your forehand (in terms of mechanics) which wouldn't work well with a 1hbh.

[habib]

the gorilla,
may i point out that the forehand and the backhand are not symmetrical strokes in relation to your body. while on the fh you'll have the hitting shoulder coming from behind, on the bh it's obviously in front, so there are different techniques and hence different interactions of the body parts.

Ed Zachary!

[fgs]

habib,
i have to appologize for my lack of knowledge, but who is ed zachary? in another thread i asked 'the gorilla' to enlighten me about who john yandell was, but he didn't care to take the time. i was suppoosedly sucking up on him and his competence along with tlm.:D
next point would be i suck up on you and your competence since our last two posts illustrate (or try to illustrate to 'the gorilla') the same thing.:D

[The Gorilla]

Because when you swing from the shoulder your arm is travelling along an entirely different trajectory - one which takes it through the contact zone linearly. When you swing by rotating your torso, your arm travels along a trajectory which takes it across your body, brushing against the contact zone laterally and then pulling it out, and generating compartively little pace.




what's to stop the right shoulder dropping down below the left shoulder and then finishing in the same spot?,the opposite of what happens in a serve wher the right shoulder is raised above the left shoulder.

[habib]

habib,
i have to appologize for my lack of knowledge, but who is ed zachary? in another thread i asked 'the gorilla' to enlighten me about who john yandell was, but he didn't care to take the time. i was suppoosedly sucking up on him and his competence along with tlm.:D
next point would be i suck up on you and your competence since our last two posts illustrate (or try to illustrate to 'the gorilla') the same thing.:D
:-) Enjoy:
---------
A woman was very distraught at the fact that she had not had a date or any sex in quite some time. She was afraid she might have something wrong with her, so she decided to seek the medical expertise of a sex therapist. Her doctor recommended that she see a well-known Chinese sex therapist, so she went to see him. Upon entering the examination room, Dr. Chang said, "OK, take off all you crose."

The woman did as she was told.

"Now, get down and craw reery, reery fass to odder side of room."

Again, the woman did as she was instructed.

Dr. Chang then said, "OK, now craw reery, reery fass back to me."

So she did.

Dr. Chang shook his head slowly and said, "Your probrem vewy bad. You haf Ed Zachary Disease. Worse case I ever see. Dat why you not haf sex or dates."

Worried, the woman asked anxiously, "Oh my God, Dr. Chang, what is Ed Zachary Disease?"

Dr. Chang looked the woman in the eye and replied, "Ed Zachary Disease is when your face rook Ed Zachary rike your ass.
------------

In other words: Exactly!

And John Yandell? http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/staff/bio/staff_bio.html

[habib]

what's to stop the right shoulder dropping down below the left shoulder and then finishing in the same spot?,the opposite of what happens in a serve wher the right shoulder is raised above the left shoulder.

Now you've lost me. In most 1hbh's, the right (hitting arm) shoulder DOES drop below the left shoulder when you turn and bring your racquet back. Please clarify.

[fgs]

habib, my friend, thank you - you made my day!:D
thank you also for instructing me about john yandell - well that really seems to be some expertise, quite a lot to suck up on.:D

[The Gorilla]

Now you've lost me. In most 1hbh's, the right (hitting arm) shoulder DOES drop below the left shoulder when you turn and bring your racquet back. Please clarify.

ok, you said that if you rotate your torso the swing will be straight across your body and you will hit across the ball.That's only true if the shoulders are level.When serving, although there is massive torso rotation, (good), servers hit straight through the ball, they do this by raising one shoulder above the other, so that their upper torso, (shoulders), are aligned in the direction in which they want to swing their arms using their torso rotation.

http://www.petesampras.com.ar/pete-sampras3.jpg

you can see what I mean here, you can also see from the finish that he has hit straight through the ball.


Now what is to stop you from controlling your torso rotation for your 1 handed bh by aligning your shoulders in the exact opposite way, by dropping your right shoulder below your left in the same was as you drop your left shoulder below your right when serving?

[fgs]

the gorilla,
you have completely different alignment of the body and hitting axis in fh/bh vs serves.

[The Gorilla]

the gorilla,
you have completely different alignment of the body and hitting axis in fh/bh vs serves.

yes you do, I was just illustrating a point using a well known example.don't worry yourself about it.

[zhukov97]

Congratulations, you guys successfully hijack this thread :)

Have fun :)

[habib]

ok, you said that if you rotate your torso the swing will be straight across your body and you will hit across the ball.That's only true if the shoulders are level.When serving, although there is massive torso rotation, (good), servers hit straight through the ball, they do this by raising one shoulder above the other, so that their upper torso, (shoulders), are aligned in the direction in which they want to swing their arms using their torso rotation.

http://www.petesampras.com.ar/pete-sampras3.jpg

you can see what I mean here, you can also see from the finish that he has hit straight through the ball.

Please don't compare groundstrokes with serves. From the very beginning and due to the way the serve is oriented (ie: straight up), the stroke mechanics differ wildly from other strokes. A lot of things go on with the serve which don't go in any other stroke, never even mind the simple biomechanics behind a 1hbh. Let me put it to you this way - if you're hitting a 1hbh strictle in the horizontal plane, in other words: no low-to-high motion whatsoever; and if you didn't particularly care where along this horizontal plane you were directing the ball, ie: right or left or straight; then rotating your hips and shoulders may be the more efficient and effective means of generating power. You would, unfortunately, be hitting an odd, to say the least, looking shot, and missing the court by, well, courts. It would not, in short, be a 1hbh.

This would be the equivalent of using a whippy, elbows-and-wrists-flailing side-arm throw type swing. A lot of power, a lot of not hitting the court and maybe even a little hurting yourself.

Also I am very unsure that I would classify the power you generate when serving as coming mainly from massive torso rotation.

Blyad. Mozhno prosto ohuyet.

Now what is to stop you from controlling your torso rotation for your 1 handed bh by aligning your shoulders in the exact opposite way, by dropping your right shoulder below your left in the same was as you drop your left shoulder below your right when serving?

Dude I don't understand you and this discussion is over.

[habib]

Congratulations, you guys successfully hijack this thread :)

Have fun :)

Hey, sorry about that.

But, at least we've kept it pretty active. :-p

[BreakPoint]

True, except that the biomechanics involved in the two shots are completely different. The backhand is a far more natural and efficient motion, whereas the forehand is almost a fight with your body to get your racquet out front (though it generally feels more natural because the way the arm moves on the forehand has innumerable correlaries to everday life). As a result, similar mechanical elements have different effects.

As just one example, the mere fact that on a forehand your hand is more or less behind the racquet, lending it additional support which the backhand lacks, allows you to do things with your forehand (in terms of mechanics) which wouldn't work well with a 1hbh.
Well, said. This is why the 1HBH has always been a more natural shot for me than the forehand.

With the backhand, both my shoulder and arm are out in front allowing me to hit the ball well in front of my body which allows me to see the ball better and gives me the most accuracy and power. With the forehand, I hit the ball much later because my hitting arm and shoulder are now behind me versus out in front like the backhand. Hitting the ball when it's not as much out in front makes it harder to see and track the ball which results in more mishits and less power and accuracy for me.

[Queensryche]

I'm sorry Zhukov , all of us here do mean well for you , but you do need to weed out the advise from the debate going on. Enough information scattered around here which addresses all your BH woes.

[Slazenger]

I'm sorry Zhukov , all of us here do mean well for you , but you do need to weed out the advise from the debate going on. Enough information scattered around here which addresses all your BH woes.

All Zhukov has to do is weed out the trainwreck that is Gorilla and listen to Breakpoint and Habib and he will be fine.

It's quite tragic when someone just doesn't know when to stop making themselves look stupid.

[The Gorilla]

Please don't compare groundstrokes with serves. From the very beginning and due to the way the serve is oriented (ie: straight up), the stroke mechanics differ wildly from other strokes. A lot of things go on with the serve which don't go in any other stroke, never even mind the simple biomechanics behind a 1hbh. Let me put it to you this way - if you're hitting a 1hbh strictle in the horizontal plane, in other words: no low-to-high motion whatsoever; and if you didn't particularly care where along this horizontal plane you were directing the ball, ie: right or left or straight; then rotating your hips and shoulders may be the more efficient and effective means of generating power. You would, unfortunately, be hitting an odd, to say the least, looking shot, and missing the court by, well, courts. It would not, in short, be a 1hbh.
This would be the equivalent of using a whippy, elbows-and-wrists-flailing side-arm throw type swing. A lot of power, a lot of not hitting the court and maybe even a little hurting yourself.


If one was to serve on a a horizontal plane you would hit an extremely odd looking shot.But you don't, you raise one shoulder above the other and rotate your shoulders on a vertical plane.I am just using the serve as an example as you are probably aware of this.

What I'm saying is why couldn't you hit a backhand on the same existing vertical plane by dropping your right shoulder below your left?Tjhen when your shoulders are rotated they will rotate the arm on a vertical plane.


Also I am very unsure that I would classify the power you generate when serving as coming mainly from massive torso rotation.



I didn't say that.

[/QUOTE]

[zhukov97]

Hey, sorry about that.

But, at least we've kept it pretty active. :-p

Hmm, it remind me the thread titled " how to hit the federer forehand", it was really pretty excessive active :p

[habib]

If one was to serve on a a horizontal plane you would hit an extremely odd looking shot.But you don't, you raise one shoulder above the other and rotate your shoulders on a vertical plane.I am just using the serve as an example as you are probably aware of this.
Yes, I was pointing out that the multiple unique aspects of the serve make it a totally different stroke than any other, and that it was pointless to use it as any sort of example.

What I'm saying is why couldn't you hit a backhand on the same existing vertical plane by dropping your right shoulder below your left?Tjhen when your shoulders are rotated they will rotate the arm on a vertical plane.

As I said, in a 1hbh your right shoulder (for righties) DOES drop below your left shoulder, and the arm then DOES come around mainly in a vertical plane. If you were to rotate your entire torso to try and swing it, however, it would cease swinging in a vertical plane and swing across your body, instead, resulting in what I've been warning against for the past however many pages.

[habib]

Hmm, it remind me the thread titled " how to hit the federer forehand", it was really pretty excessive active :p

Good point. Alright, I'll stop responding to Gorilla and talk to you instead. :-)

The next time you go out to practice, try to do the following:
-Keep your body perpendicular to the net all the way through the 1hbh - maybe opening up only on follow-through.

-Pull your right shoulder forward into the pull in order to initiate the swing. At the moment it looks as though you're swinging from the hand, for lack of a better description. In other words, it looks like your hand is the first thing that moves forward, well ahead of your shoulders or anything else. Change this.

-Keep your wrist stiff. When I first started playing, I had the same tendency as you - to flick my wrist on the BH. You can see that from this video (taken a littl eover a year ago): http://youtube.com/watch?v=e5UE5Tt-lb8
You can also see that I would often overrotate my torso, though the really closed stance I used mitigated some of that. My backhand was pretty good - lots of power, poor consistency and depth.

Fast forward one year - http://youtube.com/watch?v=e5UE5Tt-lb8
You can see how much firmer the wrist is, and how much more closed I'm keeping my torso throughout the swing. The shot is not only more powerful now, but it's far more consistent, I have better control, I can hit it deep, short, angled, etc... The wrist suppination is a very advanced technique which, while adding pace and spin, nevertheless introduces too many additional variables into the equation, and for most sub-5.0 players tends to break down the stroke due to timing issues.

Edit: Just thought I'd throw in that the only time I do open my torso and swing more across my body is on high (shoulder and up) balls.

[The Gorilla]

Yes, I was pointing out that the multiple unique aspects of the serve make it a totally different stroke than any other, and that it was pointless to use it as any sort of example.

well the serve does habe many unique aspects but that doesn't mean it's pointless to use as an example, it's a fairly simple conept: rotate your trunk-control you swing plane by aligning your shoulders-example of an instance in which this is done.Perhaps this is to complex a concept for you to grasp, but I think it's more likely that a lot of pride and a little man might have something to do with it.Obnoxious, petty, closeminded men like yourself have for too long hindered
progress in your country.

As I said, in a 1hbh your right shoulder (for righties) DOES drop below your left shoulder, and the arm then DOES come around mainly in a vertical plane. If you were to rotate your entire torso to try and swing it, however, it would cease swinging in a vertical plane and swing across your body, instead, resulting in what I've been warning against for the past however many pages.



well you can rotate your torso and swing on a vertical plane, the reason the left shoulder drops below the right shoulder is because this is what is happening.If you didn't rotate your torso then there would be no need to drop your right shoulder below your left would there?, and yet this is what happens.

The serve is evidence that this can be done, that if you rotate your torso and align your shoulders correctly you can swing along any plane you choose, if you choose to wilfully misinterperet and disregard what I'm saying then that's your problem.

And what about the famous pete sampras running forehand?The plane along which the racquet is swung is totally vertical, yet there is massive trunk rotation, he achieves this by aligning his shoulders correctly.

[The Gorilla]

Yes, I was pointing out that the multiple unique aspects of the serve make it a totally different stroke than any other, and that it was pointless to use it as any sort of example.

well the serve does have many unique aspects but that doesn't mean it's pointless to use it as an example.It's a fairly simple concept: rotate your trunk-control you swing plane by aligning your shoulders-example of an instance in which this is done.Perhaps this is to complex a concept for you to grasp, but I think it's more likely that a lot of pride and a little man might have something to do with it.Obnoxious, petty, close minded men like yourself have for too long hindered
progress in your country.

As I said, in a 1hbh your right shoulder (for righties) DOES drop below your left shoulder, and the arm then DOES come around mainly in a vertical plane. If you were to rotate your entire torso to try and swing it, however, it would cease swinging in a vertical plane and swing across your body, instead, resulting in what I've been warning against for the past however many pages.



well you can rotate your torso,(by which I mean your ihps and then your shoulders, in sequence, not as a single unit), and swing on a vertical plane, the reason the left shoulder drops below the right shoulder is because this is what is already happening.If you didn't rotate your torso then there would be no need to drop your right shoulder below your left would there?, and yet this is what happens.

The serve is evidence that this can be done, that if you rotate your torso and align your shoulders correctly you can swing along any plane you choose, if you choose to wilfully misinterperet and disregard what I'm saying then that's your problem.

And what about the famous pete sampras running forehand?The plane along which the racquet is swung was almost totally vertical, yet there was massive trunk rotation, he achieved this by aligning his shoulders correctly.

[Ten_is]

Just got on to this thread so I have not read much on it but looking at the initial video here are my thoughts.


1 - rotate your body more and plant that right foot waay before setting up. Your shoulders are not turned all the way and that chin is not touching the shoulder. You're losing much power here.

2. - too much jumping up and down. You're tiring yourself out.


In regards to serving comments on here, here's my take:

All your power from the serve comes from below the belt. Your hips. You need to explode by turning them over and up as quickly as possible building elasticity by using your legs eventually leading up to the shoulders and so on.. the serve is really all about flexibility over strength for maximum power.

[habib]

well the serve does habe many unique aspects but that doesn't mean it's pointless to use as an example, it's a fairly simple conept: rotate your trunk-control you swing plane by aligning your shoulders-example of an instance in which this is done.Perhaps this is to complex a concept for you to grasp, but I think it's more likely that a lot of pride and a little man might have something to do with it.Obnoxious, petty, closeminded men like yourself have for too long hindered
progress in your country.
Please, don't make me laugh by claiming this is a concept too complex for me to understand when biomechanicl basics of the 1hbh are leagues beyond you. In many ways, the torso rotation on the serve is also a consequence rather than the catalyst. It's the result of your legs pushing you directly into the ball - something you don't get on a groundstroke. Please stop embarassing yourself.

well you can rotate your torso and swing on a vertical plane, the reason the left shoulder drops below the right shoulder is because this is what is happening.If you didn't rotate your torso then there would be no need to drop your right shoulder below your left would there?, and yet this is what happens.

Actually the reason your right shoulder drops below the left (where you came up with the reverse is beyond me) is because you tuck your shoulder under your chin and lean into the ball. The only way a torso rotation would generate a vertical swing plane in this situation is if you bent 90 degrees at the waist. Any rotation by your torso while you are upright would pull the racquet out of the hitting zone and across your body. We've been over this. Do try to keep up.

The serve is evidence that this can be done, that if you rotate your torso and align your shoulders correctly you can swing along any plane you choose, if you choose to wilfully misinterperet and disregard what I'm saying then that's your problem.

I'm not misinterpreting anything, you're just completely missing the mark. In order to incorporate and validate your theory that torso rotation is the logical power generator for a backhand (or forehand, or what have you) you're twisting the definition of backhand and pulling completely unrelated concepts out of your ass. Sure, "if you rotate your torso and align your shoulders correctly you can swing along any plane you choose." However to swing along the correct plane on a 1hbh using torso rotation, you'd have to contort yourself into something which doesn't resemble any known tennis position. Well, Pretzelman, that's up to you. But for those of us who want to keep on hitting, you know, actual one-handed backhands, I think we'll keep swinging from the shoulder and leaving the torso rotation to the hackers, m'kay?

And what about the famous pete sampras running forehand?The plane along which the racquet is swung is totally vertical, yet there is massive trunk rotation, he achieves this by aligning his shoulders correctly.

What, you're back to comparing forehand to backhand mechanics? You're hopeless, and I'm done replying to you. White washing fences with Tom Sawyer is a more productive intellectual exercise.

[fgs]

the gorilla,
please forgive me but it seems i'm too stupid, i simply cannot get that shoulder thing and torso rotation you are talking about. if you happen to have a tennis racquet, please try to tape the motion you are suggesting and post it, so i can be part of the progress in tennis technique. thank you.

[The Gorilla]

this is pointless, go on believing whatevever you like.

[habib]

this is pointless, go on believing whatevever you like.

No problem. Just do me a favor and stop giving bad advice.

[Slazenger]

the gorilla,
please forgive me but it seems i'm too stupid, i simply cannot get that shoulder thing and torso rotation you are talking about. if you happen to have a tennis racquet, please try to tape the motion you are suggesting and post it, so i can be part of the progress in tennis technique. thank you.

Let me translate to troll speak for Gorilla:

Put up or shut up!

[Slazenger]

No problem. Just do me a favor and stop giving bad advice.

You forgot to add a ;) at the end lol! Gorilla is SO laughable.

[The Gorilla]

the gorilla,
please forgive me but it seems i'm too stupid, i simply cannot get that shoulder thing and torso rotation you are talking about. if you happen to have a tennis racquet, please try to tape the motion you are suggesting and post it, so i can be part of the progress in tennis technique. thank you.

look at a video of anyone serving, ignore their arm and look at how they twist their torso, they turn their hips, then their shoulders, the right shoulder is above the left shoulder, their right shoulder moves up vertically and finishes downwards, and so does their arm.

Look at someone hitting a reverse forehand, pete sampras is a good example, ignore their arm, look at how they twist their torso, they first turn their hip, then the shoulders, the right shoulder is below the left shoulder, the shoulder moves down and then up.

Look at both videos and you will see that the arm is aligned with the shoulder.

So- if the right shoulder is raised above the left shoulder rotation of the shoulders, (upper torso), will be vertical, the path of the right shoulder, to which the hitting arm is attached, travels from down at trhe beginning of the stroke, to up in the middle of the stroke to down at the completion of the stroke, it's like if you imagine the shoulder as being part of an imaginary wheel, if you were to draw a line throught the center of a wheel from one end of the wheel to the other.

like this

http://ca.geocities.com/xpf51/MATHREF/C_CIRCLE.gif



The center is your neck, the points at which the line intersect the circle are your shoulders, the circle is the path along which your shoulders will travel if rotated.


now imagine this same circle aligned differently, the path the shoulders will take if rotated is different.Your shoulders could be aligned at this angle for example


http://www.practicalphysics.org/imageLibrary/jpeg400/930.jpg

A being your left shoulder
0 being your right shoulder


Halfway inbetween being your neck.


and the path along which your shoulders would move if rotated is this, ( aplogies for the picture)

http://www.rjays.com/Billet_Spec/billet_images/whatsawheel-lg.jpg


So you see that whichever way the shoulders are aligned determines the path at which you strike the ball when/if rotated...

[The Gorilla]

...
whch can be controlled look at the angle of sampras's shoulders

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40791000/jpg/_40791428_sampras270.jpg

As you can see this allows him to get the benefit of rotating his shoulders and getting massive added power.

It is an extreme example though.


Habib's argument that you would be forced to swing horizontally if you rotated your shoulders is only true if your shoulders are aligned horizontally from the beginning, like this gentleman for example:


http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Rene-Magritte/The-Son-of-Man-1964-Print-C10090968.jpeg



However if the right shoulder is dropped below the left shoulder, in the same manner as the serve, although to a far lesser degree, then the backhand can be struck along the desire plane.



http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/federer_backhand_01_0407.gif


look at the starting position of the shoulder in the fourth of these pictures.

You can also see that the hip moves in tandem with the shoulders.

[habib]

...
whch can be controlled look at the angle of sampras's shoulders

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40791000/jpg/_40791428_sampras270.jpg

As you can see this allows him to get the benefit of rotating his shoulders and getting massive added power.

It is an extreme example though.


Habib's argument that you would be forced to swing horizontally if you rotated your shoulders is only true if your shoulders are aligned horizontally from the beginning, like this gentleman for example:
That wasn't my argument at all. Try again.


However if the right shoulder is dropped below the left shoulder, in the opposite manner to the serve, although to a far lesser degree, then the backhand can be struck along the desire plane.
In that serve, the right shoulder IS dropped below the left shoulder, so how can the opposite of that be the same thing? You appear confused.

[The Gorilla]

In that serve, the right shoulder IS dropped below the left shoulder, so how can the opposite of that be the same thing? You appear confused.

fixed !!!

[fgs]

the gorilla,
thank you for your theoretical explanations. in theory i am really much better than fed, he might make about three to four points per set if he puts in some surprise shots and i admit that i would not reach them.
i might really be too stupid, because i can understand what you are talking about but i'm afraid to execute because i don't want to get injured. therefore i kindly asked you to grab a tennis racquet if you might have one at hand and do this motion yourself - without any ball so not to induce in the initial phase of the development of this backhand striking technology any additional stress. if you manage to execute a rather flowing motion that seems to provide for more power and control than todays accepted stroking techniques, please be so kind to tape it and post it - i would probably be one of its biggest advocates.
and don't say i'm stupid because i have already mentioned this myself. I REALLY AM STUPID! no kidding!

[The Gorilla]

the gorilla,
thank you for your theoretical explanations. in theory i am really much better than fed, he might make about three to four points per set if he puts in some surprise shots and i admit that i would not reach them.
i might really be too stupid, because i can understand what you are talking about but i'm afraid to execute because i don't want to get injured. therefore i kindly asked you to grab a tennis racquet if you might have one at hand and do this motion yourself - without any ball so not to induce in the initial phase of the development of this backhand striking technology any additional stress. if you manage to execute a rather flowing motion that seems to provide for more power and control than todays accepted stroking techniques, please be so kind to tape it and post it - i would probably be one of its biggest advocates.
and don't say i'm stupid because i have already mentioned this myself. I REALLY AM STUPID! no kidding!



why would this injure you?It doesn't hurt Federer, or anyone else for that matter ;) , I added a few frames of fed's backhand you might want to take a look at.

[The Gorilla]

BTW, can we all please just calm down and discuss this like adults?I've lost my temper myself but I think we should just ratioanlly discuss this from here on in.

[The Gorilla]

That wasn't my argument at all. Try again.






if you were to rotate your entire torso to try and swing it, however, it would cease swinging in a vertical plane and swing across your body, instead, resulting in what I've been warning against for the past however many pages.




In that serve, the right shoulder IS dropped below the left shoulder, so how can the opposite of that be the same thing? You appear confused.


fixed !!!

[habib]

why would this injure you?It doesn't hurt Federer, or anyone else for that matter ;) , I added a few frames of fed's backhand you might want to take a look at.

And you will notice in those frames that:
A) The shoulder pulls forward to initiate the swing;
B) The swing basically completes without any further movement of the shoulders or any other part of the torso, hinging entirely at the shoulder joint; and
C) The torso only rotates after followthrough, as the momentum of the arm drags it around.

Pulling the shoulder forward as you should be doing and rotating your torso are two entirely different things.

[habib]

Originally Posted by habib
...if you were to rotate your entire torso to try and swing it, however, it would cease swinging in a vertical plane and swing across your body, instead, resulting in what I've been warning against for the past however many pages...


Yes, and you'll notice that in the statement to which I replied you referenced the above with relation to "rotating the shoulders," which is not what I had said. Your shoulders can rotate independently of your hips in all three dimensions.

In any case, note that, to initiate the swing, Federer's shoulders don't really "rotate." He pulls the front shoulder forward into the ball, which - yes- opens them up by maybe 15-20 degrees. This isn't what your original advice - rotating the torso - suggested. Were you to rotate your shoulders around to, say, open your torso as Federer's is in the recovery phase of that sequence, you WOULD be swinging horizontally across your body unless you bent yourself over as I mentoined earlier.

[fgs]

the gorilla,
there is nothing more to add to habibs explanation which is spot on. the point (biomechanically speaking) is that each joint has its specific range of motion and it is a particularity of the onehanded backhandstroke that you will have the point of impact a little bit closer to the end of the range of motion.
the hip and torso rotation you see in the fed-photo-sequence is a conseqence of 1. his recovering to get into position AFTER the stroke itself is almost completed and towards the end of the deceleration and 2. to prevent overextension and thus injury to the joint in question, i.e. the shoulder.
habib already pointed out in a much earlier post that the lowering of the right shoulder is a natural consequence of the takeback, since you want to get the racquet under the ball in order to have that upward+foreward motion which imparts spin.
a torso rotation as seen in forehands which would lead to a whipping action is not desireable on backhands, mainly due to the position of your wrist in the stroke - on the forehand the wrist is much more stable, so you can employ this technique, which you eventually will see in 2hbh only, which are basically lefthanded forehands with right hand support, so you also have torso induced rotation on these ones, but that's another story.

so the point habib was making in respect to the op, whose thread we have partially highjacked, is that due to the extensive torso rotation we see in his video, he will at best get some 70% of his energy transerred to the ball, because he is basically sidespinning the ball, taking the racquet diagonally out of the path of the ball. this will not only lead to a slower ball, but will also make controlling it (depth- and heightwise) much more difficult.

[The Gorilla]

And you will notice in those frames that:
A) The shoulder pulls forward to initiate the swing;
B) The swing basically completes without any further movement of the shoulders or any other part of the torso, hinging entirely at the shoulder joint; and
C) The torso only rotates after followthrough, as the momentum of the arm drags it around.

Pulling the shoulder forward as you should be doing and rotating your torso are two entirely different things.





http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/federer_backhand_01_0407.gif


In frame four the backswing has completed, His left shoulder is behind and above his head.

A)In frame 5 the arm has begun to move forward and the left shoulder, which in frame four is behind, and above, his head, is now behind his head in this picture.The degree to which his arm has moved forward is proportional to the degree to which his shoulders and hips have have rotated.

B + C)His the angle of his hips is at all times parallel to the angle of his shoulders, both at the start and finish, and all the stages imbetween.If you pay close attention you will see this.

I have to say that I think this is fairly conclusive.

[fgs]

the gorilla,
please concentrate on frames 6-8 in this wonderful sequence.
in frame 6 the racquet head is down and the acceleration towards impact point begins (i know that physically speaking he started to accelerate the racquet already when taking it back, but you surely understand what i refer to as acceleration in this context). this is where shoulder and hips are aligned for the stroke and will be locked throughout the stroke until frame 8.
frame 7 illustrates the impact point, shoulders and hips basically still locked. don't let yourself be fooled neither by the shadows nor by the fact that the backfoot already prepares for stepping out.
frame 8 has the followthrough completed, shoulders and hips still locked but position slightly changed since he has to step out with the backfoot because he will have to recover for the eventual next shot.
these three frames are the important part of the stroke, the rest is very individual in the sense that you will see other players having a different takeback (higher or lower or loopier) and also a different way to recover, which is also depending on the incoming shot.

[The Gorilla]

the gorilla,
please concentrate on frames 6-8 in this wonderful sequence.
in frame 6 the racquet head is down and the acceleration towards impact point begins (i know that physically speaking he started to accelerate the racquet already when taking it back, but you surely understand what i refer to as acceleration in this context). this is where shoulder and hips are aligned for the stroke and will be locked throughout the stroke until frame 8.
frame 7 illustrates the impact point, shoulders and hips basically still locked. don't let yourself be fooled neither by the shadows nor by the fact that the backfoot already prepares for stepping out.
frame 8 has the followthrough completed, shoulders and hips still locked but position slightly changed since he has to step out with the backfoot because he will have to recover for the eventual next shot.
these three frames are the important part of the stroke, the rest is very individual in the sense that you will see other players having a different takeback (higher or lower or loopier) and also a different way to recover, which is also depending on the incoming shot.



I don't know where you got all of this from.How on earth did you come to the belief that his hips are locked?
They are parallel with his shoulders at all times-literally.

[habib]

http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/federer_backhand_01_0407.gif


In frame four the backswing has completed, His left shoulder is behind and above his head.

A)In frame 5 the arm has begun to move forward and the left shoulder, which in frame four is behind, and above, his head, is now behind his head in this picture.The degree to which his arm has moved forward is proportional to the degree to which his shoulders and hips have have rotated.
Actually, in the 5th frame he has just completed the backswing. Note that his back is turned further away from the net compared to frame 4, and his arm is more tucked in. The forward drive begins in frame 6. Now, how you come to the conclusion that the arm moves forward proportionally with the pull of the shoulders is beyond me. It's true for about 1/10th of a second, after which point the arm moves on its own, swinging around the shoulder, while the torso remains almost completely still until well after contact and the start of the followthrough.

B + C)His the angle of his hips is at all times parallel to the angle of his shoulders, both at the start and finish, and all the stages imbetween.If you pay close attention you will see this.
This again isn't completely true, as there is some difference in position, though I'll grant you it's not much. It begs me to ask: Your point?

I have to say that I think this is fairly conclusive.
Of what? The shoulders coil further back than the hips during the backswing, and move ahead of the hips (in reverse of what happens on a forehand) to begin the swing - the hips then catch up the shoulders but remain basically perpendicular to the net until the followthrough momentum brings the body aronud. What, exactly, is "fairly conclusive" is beyond me since you make no claims.

[fgs]

the gorilla,
by locked i mean that they are not leading any movement. in frames 7 to 9 the shoulders don't move at all and the hips you only see moving because he is stepping out with the left foot, so he is naturally bringing the left hip forward.

[BreakPoint]

I think this sequence perfectly illustrates what habib, Slazenger, fgs, and I have been talking about:

http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/federer_backhand_01_0407.gif

Notice that he keeps his shoulders and torso perpendicular to the net while he's hitting the ball and during the follow-through (frames 7,8,9). There is NO trunk rotation whatsoever. He's not using trunk rotation to generate any power. Notice that he doesn't open his shoulders, which then pulls his trunk around, until WELL AFTER he has hit the ball and after the follow-thorugh, so that he can see where his shot went and get ready for the next shot (frames 10, 11, 12).

[The Gorilla]

Actually, in the 5th frame he has just completed the backswing. Note that his back is turned further away from the net compared to frame 4, and his arm is more tucked in. The forward drive begins in frame 6. Now, how you come to the conclusion that the arm moves forward proportionally with the pull of the shoulders is beyond me. It's true for about 1/10th of a second, after which point the arm moves on its own, swinging around the shoulder, while the torso remains almost completely still until well after contact and the start of the followthrough.


How can you say the torso remains still?In frame 5 you can clearly see his back, in frame 6 when he strikes the ball he is side on, in frame 7 you can see his chest, in frame 8 he is even more opened up, etc...

The point at which he strikes the ball is one point in a series of points the torso occupies, he has rotated his shoulders and his hips, this is clear and can be verified by looking at teach successive picture and noting that in each picture the hips and shoulders have rotated further relative to their previous position., I did say the finish and the point at which he struck the ball would be unaffected.

How can you say that the torso remains completely still until well after contact?, at the point at which he strikes the ball it has rotated further still from it's position in the previous frame, in the next frame the rotation continues.I'm having difficulty understanding how you came to this conclusion.





Of what? The shoulders coil further back than the hips during the backswing,



why is this relevant?, I never claimed the torso rotated as a unit, but in sequence, as a kinetic chain.



and move ahead of the hips


Now this I can't see, If you look at the position of his legs you can see that his hips are definitly opening up.

[habib]

How can you say the torso remains still?In frame 5 you can clearly see his back, in frame 6 when he strikes the ball he is side on, in frame 7 you can see his chest, in frame 8 he is even more opened up, etc...
His torso remains in virtually the same exact position from frame 7 through frame 11, and is only slightly more perpendicular in frame 6. These frames cover the time from right before contact to well after and right before the follow through pulls him around.

[qoute]The point at which he strikes the ball is one point in a series of points the torso occupies, he has rotated his shoulders and his hips, this is clear and can be verified by looking at teach successive picture and noting that in each picture the hips and shoulders have rotated further relative to their previous position., I did say the finish and the point at which he struck the ball would be unaffected.

How can you say that the torso remains completely still until well after contact?, at the point at which he strikes the ball it has rotated further still from it's position in the previous frame, in the next frame the rotation continues.I'm having difficulty understanding how you came to this conclusion.[/quote]
I'm having difficulty figuring out how you can't tell that his torso remains in the same position from frame 7 through 11, all frames covering the actual swing.


why is this relevant?, I never claimed the torso rotated as a unit, but in sequence, as a kinetic chain.
Your initial post in this thread was:
"rotate your trunk for more power, don't listen to these idiots"
Whereas, in fact, the power comes from the shoulder pull, with said shoulders coiling far more than the trunk and the trunk only turning in reaction, not catalysm.


Now this I can't see, If you look at the position of his legs you can see that his hips are definitly opening up.

Why would you look at the position of his legs? He's clearly moving to his side, so as his legs move midstep the hips will naturally appear to be opening up, but are in fact just following the motion and momentum of his legs.

Moreover, it indeed seems obvious that his shoulder comes froward before his trunk, with said trunk following reactively. A better example of this can be seen in this clip of Gonzalez:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhyBVTyRvEg

It's even more obvious in this clip of Fed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZncVNX4vIOM

In both cases, you can clearly see that the shoulder leads what turn there actually is (which is minimal), but that before contact the torso virtually stops while the arm continues to move around the shoulder joint, eventually pulling the torso along with it well, well, well after contact.

Here's an even better example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69WEgyk9v1g

You can see from this that the hips almost perfectly mirror the motion and position of the legs (which makes sense, considering how you're built), while its the shoulder which initiates and powers the actual swing. Hell, the hips actually move *opposite* the shoulders at one point as he brings his leg forward to stop his momentum.

If you can't gather how the 1hbh should work from the frames you provided and the clips I just linked, then I see no point in furthering this discussion, because frankly I'm tired of repeating myself to no avail no matter the preponderence of evidence on my side.

[jaimsblake]

your opening up your shoulders too early and wats with the pose at the finish of your bh?

[kck123]

S. T. O. P.


IMMEDIATELY. This is insane.

[habib]

S. T. O. P.


IMMEDIATELY. This is insane.

Hahaha. You're right. Ok.

[Mountain Ghost]

While the lengthy banter may have seemed excessive and antagonistic at times, I think the descriptions offered by the participants of this discussion have provided some great points for the OP to visualize. I especially liked habib’s clear explanations of PRIMARY one-handed backhand components, which are light-years ahead of the numerous inconsequential details of the stroke that are typically noticed, focused on and hence misinterpreted by others. I agree that there should be NO intentional rotation of the shoulders or the hips on a one-handed backhand (exactly as many have said). However, I must thank the main antagonist for an excellent graphic example of a one-handed backhand done well.

http://news.tennis365.net/lesson/img/pro_gif/federer_backhand_01_0407.gif

It is the rotation of the arm at the pivotal point of the forward stroke (the shoulder) that produces the racquet head speed and control here, and the rotation of the torso is actually restrained by design. If you look at the amount of shoulder and hip rotation in the sequence, you’ll notice a steady and somewhat minimal progression throughout all of the frames. But the amount of racquet head movement from frames 5 to 6 to 7 is HUGE. This substantial movement is produced by the arm rotating at the shoulder. While the racquet head covers a full 180 degrees during these 3 frames (from behind the left shoulder to contact), the shoulders rotate maybe 45 degrees, and they then stop rotating. It’s not until very late in the follow-through that the rotation continues, which means he intentionally does NOT rotate the shoulders through the ball.

The key to the stroke is frame 6, where the elbow is straight, the arm is rotated back at the shoulder, the wrist is firm and the racquet head is at its lowest point. From there the (low to high) stroke is a forward rotation of the arm at the shoulder, with very little rotation anywhere else.

To anyone wanting to develop a good one-handed backhand, focus on recreating the details in frame 6 . . . and NOT on rotating the torso.

MG

[Slazenger]

It is the rotation of the arm at the pivotal point of the forward stroke (the shoulder) that produces the racquet head speed and control here, and the rotation of the torso is actually restrained by design. If you look at the amount of shoulder and hip rotation in the sequence, you’ll notice a steady and somewhat minimal progression throughout all of the frames. But the amount of racquet head movement from frames 5 to 6 to 7 is HUGE. This substantial movement is produced by the arm rotating at the shoulder. While the racquet head covers a full 180 degrees during these 3 frames (from behind the left shoulder to contact), the shoulders rotate maybe 45 degrees, and they then stop rotating. It’s not until very late in the follow-through that the rotation continues, which means he intentionally does NOT rotate the shoulders through the ball.

The key to the stroke is frame 6, where the elbow is straight, the arm is rotated back at the shoulder, the wrist is firm and the racquet head is at its lowest point. From there the (low to high) stroke is a forward rotation of the arm at the shoulder, with very little rotation anywhere else.

To anyone wanting to develop a good one-handed backhand, focus on recreating the details in frame 6 . . . and NOT on rotating the torso.

MG

Great post MG.

Can't believe Gorilla-tard had this to say about you when he is the one stinking up this (and other) thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=1527341#post1527341

Troll

[fgs]

slazenger,
you know, some people sometimes are stubborn (happens to me too at times) and therefore they can't see the forest for the trees. 'the gorilla' admitted that he has at a certain point been carried away but then he came back and argued his points by means of photos (if you remember is said i'm too stupid to understand and asked him to tape what he was talking about - he provided the fed sequence instead which was much better as a discussion point). we had the perfect instruments to show him what happens and why trunk rotation is no good on 1hbh. somewhere along this long post i even mentioned that 45degrees is the most you should get in the complete stroke from preparation to followthrough and 'mountain ghost' just confirmed explicitely. the major point though is that from the moment the racquet reaches the lowest point and starts to accelerate towards the ball and until the followthrough (frames 6- 8 ) there is no trunk rotation whatsoever, neither shoulderline nor hips - and this was beautifully put in perspective by the sequence provided by 'the gorilla'. i think that it was possible in the end to have two people discover the 'forest', since the op had the possibility to pick up enough clues that would lead him to improve his backhand and (hopefully) 'the gorilla' also has added some information to his knowledge

[The Gorilla]

I'm having difficulty figuring out how you can't tell that his torso remains in the same position from frame 7 through 11, all frames covering the actual swing.

The arm has lagged behind the torso turn, it is relaxed, it has to catch up with the torso's position, which has swung it there.

Your initial post in this thread was:
"rotate your trunk for more power, don't listen to these idiots"


I did, I didn't specify which was the best way to rotate it though did I?I was being lazy.






Why would you look at the position of his legs? He's clearly moving to his side, so as his legs move midstep the hips will naturally appear to be opening up, but are in fact just following the motion and momentum of his legs.




You look at the position of his legs to see where his hips are, the angle of the picture does not allow you to see it.


As to this: his hips are only moving because he is moving arguement, it seems a bit of a chicken and egg to argument me.How do you know this?His legs have to move when he rotates his hips, when you rotate your hips when hitting your forehand your legs also have to move, totherwise you would simply fall over.

[habib]

I did, I didn't specify which was the best way to rotate it though did I?I was being lazy.
I don't buy this, I think you meant exactly that - a trunk rotation much like you see on the forehand where it's a massive turn which pulls the arm. However, even if I were to take your excuse above at face value, then by virtue of being lazy you were still giving idiotic advice that is more easily misinterpreted than understood. I hope you're happy.


As to this: his hips are only moving because he is moving arguement, it seems a bit of a chicken and egg to argument me.How do you know this?His legs have to move when he rotates his hips, when you rotate your hips when hitting your forehand your legs also have to move, totherwise you would simply fall over.

Not really true. On an open stance forehand, you can coil your torso quite a lot, and then similarly uncoil it even further, without moving your legs at all. There is no chicken and egg. You can see in the last clip that, as he's moving sideways into the ball, the hips mirror his legs, not vice versa.

[zhukov97]

Since discussion goes so far. Thanks all you guys, I really learned a lot.

But the fighting about "rotation of torso" really makes me confused. Here I think maybe there are something should be clarified. When I back to read the great book "Tennis Stroke wins" again, I found it not use the term "rotation of torso", but describe independently use the term "plane of the hips" and "plane of the shoulders".

For 1hbh, the book give us two points: first, during prepariation, you coin your shoulders plane, it called "tunk it in". Second, when you fire your shot, you left arm keep still or move at opposite direction to limit but not diminish the rotation of shoulder plane.

So, from the book, IMO your shoulder do rotation but not in huge range, and you hip plane keep stable.

so I think we need get rid of the mislead phase of "rotation of the torso"

Do you guys agree me

[habib]

Since discussion goes so far. Thanks all you guys, I really learned a lot.

But the fighting about "rotation of torso" really makes me confused. Here I think maybe there are something should be clarified. When I back to read the great book "Tennis Stroke wins" again, I found it not use the term "rotation of torso", but describe independently use the term "plane of the hips" and "plane of the shoulders".

For 1hbh, the book give us two points: first, during prepariation, you coin your shoulders plane, it called "tunk it in". Second, when you fire your shot, you left arm keep still or move at opposite direction to limit but not diminish the rotation of shoulder plane.

So, from the book, IMO your shoulder do rotation but not in huge range, and you hip plane keep stable.

so I think we need get rid of the mislead phase of "rotation of the torso"

Do you guys agree me

Absolutely, and your book is completely correct. Gorilla brought "trunk rotation" into this thread for no reason, and it's what I've been trying to argue against for god knows how many pages.

Basically, your hips should remain stable through the stroke, only coming around as a natural consequence of the follow through. The shoulder pulls forward into the ball to initiate the swing - in pulling forward it opens SLIGHTLY, but stops almost immediately once the arm begins to move. And, yes, your off-arm should extend behind you and down - in the opposite direction of the swing - in order to properly balance yourself.

[The Gorilla]

Yes, I do. Quit focusing so much on your arm and focus more on the legs. Drive with your legs and snap the hip into your shot. This allows the arm to rise naturally through the shot. You should be able to use the legs to provide some lift in your shots.

Try and use a stroke the ends up out more to the target. Aim to hit the ball on the lower half of your racquet and lengthen your stroke. You will cream it.

I didnt quite understand your "same" as the forehand. You might have to describe more about what you mean there.

But for a onehanded backhand drive you want to hit a bit higher in the strike zone, and drive with your step toward the ball (push off with the backfoot) and lengthen your stroke going low to high out to the target.

You can use the chair drill if you want to learn how the legs can help you in your stroke.

Forgot about this thread until just now

[TheHuntor]

I don't know if this in the thread or beaten to death already, but seems you could transfer a little more weight forward to keep a few of those from sailing long. Just looked you were finishing with your weight back on a few of them. But hell I do the same on mine sometimes.

[The Gorilla]

I take it you are conceding the point Habib et al?