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View Full Version : Is Muscle Milk bad for you?


dave333
06-29-2007, 08:32 AM
My dad just got a big tub of muscle milk. It tastes delicious and sounds like its great for building up but there is a TON of fat and sat. fat, though it says that these fats help burn fat, which sounds like complete BS to me.

So is the fat content reason to not really use muscle milk too much? And is it much better than other protein mixes?

Tastes so good, not chalky either.

Chauvalito
06-29-2007, 08:45 AM
saturated fats or trans fats are the fats you really need to watch out for...if you do a google search or check out runners world .com, or mens health .com you will plenty of scientifically backed articles discussing the negatives of trans fat

In short it is one of the main contributors to heart disease and clogged arteries over time.

hydrogenated oils were initially implemented into packaged goods in the 70's because they prolonged the shelf life of those products.

Next time your in the supermarket, pick up a few candy bars, or some little debbie snacks and you will find out that they are in nearly every product which is packaged.

Dont take my word for it though, you can find plnty of information on the above mentioned websites mentioned, most of which will be empirically researched

what is muscle milk by the way? Is it a wey protein?

richw76
06-29-2007, 08:49 AM
Salmon and flax seed oil have fat but it's good fat. From my understanding Muscle Milk is the same. They have Different versions and some are lower in carbs and fat/calories per gram of protein. But I think most experts agree that for sustained muscle growth or fat loose you should have some balance of fat/carbs/protein in the majority of your meals.

So yeah if it's a choice between a muscle milk shake and a desert or bag of chips, ya know.

and I do use it, and I've been losing weight. I drink it after workouts, and as my "snacks"(eating 5-6 "meals" a day) and If I get hungry and want soemthing sweet like desert. I'll do muscle milk, milk, frozen fruit, a little honey, and a few ice cubes. Good stuff!!

tricky
06-29-2007, 08:54 AM
Yeah, muscle milk is the best of the best. Expensive, but the class of MRPs. T-mag wrote a very negative article on it, but I question their motivations.

A lot of the fat in it is apparently MCT, which is not easily stored as bodyfat. It works a lot like carbohydrates in that it can be quickly be converted into energy, but it's difficult to store. Though a lot of MCT should also cause some gastric distress.

Base fat in muscle milk is unrefined canola oil. I'm a little uncomfortable with that, because one doesn't really need more O6 in a normal diet except for a GLA supplement. But the ratio itself is fine. You'd need to supplement with some fish oil to make sure the anti-inflammatory effects are there.

Chauvalito
06-29-2007, 08:56 AM
Salmon and flax seed oil have fat but it's good fat. From my understanding Muscle Milk is the same. They have Different versions and some are lower in carbs and fat/calories per gram of protein. But I think most experts agree that for sustained muscle growth or fat loose you should have some balance of fat/carbs/protein in the majority of your meals.

So yeah if it's a choice between a muscle milk shake and a desert or bag of chips, ya know.

and I do use it, and I've been losing weight. I drink it after workouts, and as my "snacks"(eating 5-6 "meals" a day) and If I get hungry and want soemthing sweet like desert. I'll do muscle milk, milk, frozen fruit, a little honey, and a few ice cubes. Good stuff!!

You are quite right...olive oil as well salmon and flax seed oil do contain good fats, those you dont have to worry about too much. These are unsaturated fats...

Its the saturated fats that you have to watch out for...Crisco is a perfect example, without saturated fat, crisoc would be a liquid at room temperature...bad stuff

stormholloway
06-29-2007, 09:17 AM
EVOPRO(TM) Our Custom Evaluation based protein, peptide, and amino acid matrix, designed to closely reflect the nitrogen components and ratios found in human mother's milk (Micellar Alpha and Beta Casiens and Cassienates, Whey concentrates, rich in Alpha-Lactalbumin, Whey Isolates, Whey Peptides, Purified Bovine Colostrum Extract rich in Secretory IgA and IGF-1, Glutamine Peptides, L-Taurine, Lactofemin). LEANLIPIDES(TM) Lipid complex selected for thermogenic and unique energy properties (Canola Oil, Enzyme Engineered Polyunsaturated Long-Chain Vegetable Oils, MCT's, L-Carnitine), Fructose, Maltodextrin, CYTOVITE I(TM), Vitamin and Mineral premix consisting of (Vitamin A acetate, cholecalciferol, d-alpha-tocopherol acetate, ascorbic acid, folate, thiamine monohydrate, riboflavin, niacinamide, pyrodoxine HCL, cyanocobalamine, biotin, pantothenic acid, di-calcium phosphate, potassium iodide, potassium chloride, ferrous fumerate, magnesium oxide, copper gluconate, and zinc oxide), Natural and Artificial flavors, creatine, GCC, our proprietary, endogenous creatine precurser (glutamine, betaine, SAMe, [S-Adenosylmethionine]), acesulfame potassium, sucralose, chromum nicotinate.

Yes, Muscle Milk is bad for you, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't done their research on artificial sweeteners. They're bad for you. Period.

richw76
06-29-2007, 09:57 AM
Yes, Muscle Milk is bad for you, and anyone who says otherwise hasn't done their research on artificial sweeteners. They're bad for you. Period.

It's tough because most Whey Protein Mixes have some artificial sweeteners. Because they have to taste good, and keep the calories and grams or carbs down. It may not be perfect but it's most likely better for you than most alternatives like chips and salsa or ice cream etc.

Other thing Wheys that have no artificle sweeteners are either very high calorie/carbs OR they taste worst than Chalk.

I still have a tub of low carb IsoPure rottign in my pantry cause it taste like crap mixed with chalk.

oscar_2424
06-29-2007, 09:59 AM
it tastes bad

stormholloway
06-29-2007, 10:46 AM
It's tough because most Whey Protein Mixes have some artificial sweeteners. Because they have to taste good, and keep the calories and grams or carbs down. It may not be perfect but it's most likely better for you than most alternatives like chips and salsa or ice cream etc.

Other thing Wheys that have no artificle sweeteners are either very high calorie/carbs OR they taste worst than Chalk.

I still have a tub of low carb IsoPure rottign in my pantry cause it taste like crap mixed with chalk.

I've recommended Jay Robb's Whey or Egg Protein here before. It's delicious in Vanilla or Chocolate (both natural flavors). I typically just mix it with water but used to make shakes with almond/peanut butter and milk with a banana. It's perfect.

richw76
06-29-2007, 11:22 AM
I've recommended Jay Robb's Whey or Egg Protein here before. It's delicious in Vanilla or Chocolate (both natural flavors). I typically just mix it with water but used to make shakes with almond/peanut butter and milk with a banana. It's perfect.

Cool thanks for the recommendation. That'll be the next one I try. Is it at GNC or vitamin store? What's the best place to find it.

stormholloway
06-29-2007, 11:37 AM
Try Whole Foods Market. They usually have it. Chocolate and Vanilla are both tasty.

Or just go online at jayrobb.com

richw76
06-29-2007, 12:38 PM
Try Whole Foods Market. They usually have it. Chocolate and Vanilla are both tasty.

Or just go online at jayrobb.com

I checked it out and this stuff looks pretty great. Is it any cheaper online or in the store or about the same whenever you can find it?

EricW
06-29-2007, 08:36 PM
It's terrible for you. Don't drink it. Drink water.

xtremerunnerars
06-29-2007, 08:49 PM
Cool thanks for the recommendation. That'll be the next one I try. Is it at GNC or vitamin store? What's the best place to find it.

Don't buy protein from GNC. You'll pay at least $30 more than you would if you bought online. The convenience is good for "emergencies", but that's about it. I have yet to meet a knowledgable GNC employee and I might feint when I do!

It's tough because most Whey Protein Mixes have some artificial sweeteners. Because they have to taste good, and keep the calories and grams or carbs down. It may not be perfect but it's most likely better for you than most alternatives like chips and salsa or ice cream etc.

Other thing Wheys that have no artificle sweeteners are either very high calorie/carbs OR they taste worst than Chalk.

I still have a tub of low carb IsoPure rottign in my pantry cause it taste like crap mixed with chalk.

I refute the chalk and calories/carbs thing. Optimum Nutrition is a solid brand with a large fanbase because it is the exact opposite of the harsh generalization you make about protein powders. The calories are respectably low and the fat is as well. Just quality whey isolates. Give the ON 100% Gold Standard Vanilla Ice Cream a try with some milk: you'll be shocked.

It's terrible for you. Don't drink it. Drink water.

Do you even know why someone would be drinking a protein shake? Muscle Milk is more than a protein shake (borderline weight gainer...maybe). The OP is taking a step forward and considering what's best for him as a person and an athlete. Water is great and necessary for practically everything in our body, but water won't give you the calories or protein required to build muscle or recover.
I don't think that I'd recommend Muscle Milk because you can achieve the same thing (and do it better) by taking some time and buying the ingredients separately. You'll eliminate some of the fat that way also.

On another note, be mindful of what egg protein is. You'll see it referred to as casein a lot of the time, and it is different from whey. Whey is for quicker absorption times compared to egg (casein) which is meant for slower times. Egg protein would be better for a pre-sleep protein shake because it'll last in your digestive system longer than whey would, but it's not as ideal for a post-match or intense workout session. You want the least amount of competition for absorption/utilization possible and Whey will give you that. Another factor is bioavailability (sorta like how well your body absorbs it) and from the numbers I've seen, whey isolates are always better in this regard.


Hope I helped!

dave333
06-30-2007, 05:27 AM
It's terrible for you. Don't drink it. Drink water.

Water is good stuff (I need 10 cups or more each day for my activities) but do you see protein in it?

stormholloway
06-30-2007, 03:02 PM
I checked it out and this stuff looks pretty great. Is it any cheaper online or in the store or about the same whenever you can find it?

Probably about the same wherever you go. If anything, the online stuff won't have the markup the in-store stuff does.

xtremerunnerars
06-30-2007, 04:50 PM
Bulknutrition has awesome prices...check them out. Plenty of reviews as well.

EricW
07-01-2007, 09:00 PM
Water is good stuff (I need 10 cups or more each day for my activities) but do you see protein in it?

READ THIS POST:

Too much protein isn't good for you, infact it's terrible for you as your kidney gets f*cked over trying to get rid of all the extra protein and it takes calcium with it. You eat a good healthy diet, etc you will have enough protein to build whatever body you want. You don't need bullsh*t like muscle milk or protein shakes.

Theres no one in the US that suffers from protein deficiency, but for some reason everyone thinks they are. Most people have waaay more than their body wants, and it gets rid of it and brings calcium with it. kidney stones!? i wonder why!

"The most common type of kidney stone is composed of calcium oxalate crystals, and factors that promote the precipitation of crystals in the urine are associated with the development of these stones."

This is because virtually everyone takes in too much protein to handle, and as I explained before, when protein is excreted, it takes calcium with it.

Why is calcium taken in order to excrete protein?

1. Calcium is taken from bones and muscle tissue to balance out the PH levels

So it also leads to decreased bone density in some people because it leeches too much calcium from their bones.

In conclusion, excess protein is terrible for you, and muscle milk, protein shakes, etc are just excess protein and are unneccessary if you eat a good healthy diet, you can get enough protein from vegetables to build any body you want in fact. What the hell do you think are in vegetables? Protein. People are just sickly misinformed and they think the only way to build muscle is to eat meat, dairy, protein shakes, etc

" Plants--the Original Sources of Protein and Amino Acids

Proteins are made from chains of 20 different amino acids that connect together in varying sequences—similar to how all the words in a dictionary are made from the same 26 letters. Plants (and microorganisms) can synthesize all of the individual amino acids that are used to build proteins, but animals cannot. There are 8 amino acids that people cannot make and thus, these must be obtained from our diets—they are referred to as “essential.”

After we eat our foods, stomach acids and intestinal enzymes digest the proteins into individual amino acids. These components are then absorbed through the intestinal walls into the bloodstream. After entering the body’s cells, these amino acids are reassembled into proteins. Proteins function as structural materials which build the scaffoldings that maintain cell shapes, enzymes which catalyze biochemical reactions, and hormones which signal messages between cells—to name only a few of their vital roles.

Since plants are made up of structurally sound cells with enzymes and hormones, they are by nature rich sources of proteins. In fact, so rich are plants that they can meet the protein needs of the earth’s largest animals: elephants, hippopotamuses, giraffes, and cows. You would be correct to deduce that the protein needs of relatively small humans can easily be met by plants."

Further evidence:

" People Require Very Little Protein

The World Health Organization (WHO) recommends that men and women obtain 5% of their calories as protein. This would mean 38 grams of protein for a man burning 3000 calories a day and 29 grams for a woman using 2300 calories a day. This quantity of protein is impossible to avoid when daily calorie needs are met by unrefined starches and vegetables. For example, rice alone would provide 71 grams of highly useable protein and white potatoes would provide 64 grams of protein.8

Our greatest time of growth—thus, the time of our greatest need for protein—is during our first 2 years of life—we double in size. At this vigorous developmental stage our ideal food is human milk, which is 5% protein. Compare this need to food choices that should be made as adults—when we are not growing. Rice is 8% protein, corn 11%, oatmeal 15%, and beans 27%.8 Thus protein deficiency is impossible when calorie needs are met by eating unprocessed starches and vegetables.

The healthy active lives of hundreds of millions of people laboring in Asia, Africa, and Central and South America on diets with less than half the amount of protein eaten by Americans and Europeans prove that the popular understanding of our protein needs is seriously flawed. "

zapvor
07-01-2007, 09:15 PM
i think i am going to try it and see what happens, because i really need to gain weight bad. i lost 8lbs from when i last weighed myself

EricW
07-01-2007, 09:36 PM
i think i am going to try it and see what happens, because i really need to gain weight bad. i lost 8lbs from when i last weighed myself

Read my above post. Also if you want to gain weight all you gotta do is lift man, whats your weight, height, fat percentage, etc? Why do you want to gain weight? And you certainly don't want to gain weight due to gaining fat, you want to gain muscle via lifting.

slice bh compliment
07-01-2007, 09:47 PM
...I still have a tub of low carb IsoPure rottign in my pantry cause it taste like crap mixed with chalk.

Crap with chalk? Seriously. I won't even ask how you know what that concoction tastes like, but here is one man's simple solution.

Fractionally distill out the chalk part and sell the rest of it on e8ay! You will make a fortune with the fetishist subculture. Or at least get your money back and make a few friends.

stormholloway
07-01-2007, 10:01 PM
Yeah, gross. Crap is so much better tasting with sand instead of chalk.

I have to mix crap and chalk with urine just for it to taste right.

Ano
07-02-2007, 12:29 AM
READ THIS POST:

Too much protein isn't good for you, infact it's terrible for you as your kidney gets f*cked over trying to get rid of all the extra protein





So what are the medical facts behind these claims and why do so many people, including some medical professionals and nutritionists, still believe it?

For starters, the negative health claims of the high protein diet on kidney function is based on information gathered from people who have preexisting kidney problems.

Any studies that show a correlation between renal (kidney) dysfunction and protein intake are in those with some type of diagnosed, pre-existing renal (kidney) disease like diabetic nephropathy, glomerular lesions, etc. Even research into protein restriction for renal patients can be controversial. (Shils, Modern Nutr in Health & Dis, 1999).

Besides, you’ll likely recognize a serious pre-existing kidney condition; the signs and symptoms will clue you in long before you happen upon it with a routine blood test (especially if there's a noted family history of diabetes mellitus and hypertension).

You see one of the jobs of the kidneys is the excretion of urea (generally a non toxic compound) that is formed from ammonia (a very toxic compound) which comes from the protein in our diets. People with serious kidney problems have trouble excreting the urea placing more stress on the kidneys and so the logic goes that a high protein diet must be hard on the kidneys for healthy athletes also.

Now for the medical and scientific facts. There is not a single scientific study published in a reputable peer - reviewed journal using healthy adults with normal kidney function that has shown any kidney dysfunction what so ever from a high protein diet. There aren’t even any correlational studies showing this effect in healthy people.

Not one of the studies done with healthy individual I have read, has shown any kidney abnormalities at all. If you happen to know even only 1 study, please let me know.

Furthermore, animals studies done using high protein diets also fail to show any kidney dysfunction in healthy animals. Now don't forget, in the real world, where millions of athletes have been following high protein diets for decades, there has never been a case of kidney failure in a healthy athlete that was determined to have been caused solely by a high protein diet.

If the high protein diet was indeed putting undo stress on our kidneys, we would have seen many cases of kidney abnormalities, but we don't nor will we. From a personal perspective as a consultant for many top bodybuilders in my country, I have known bodybuilders eating high protein diets (300 – 400 grams a day) who showed no kidney dysfunction or kidney problems and I personally read the damn blood tests!

Bottom line? 1-1.5 grams or protein per pound of bodyweight will have absolutely no ill effects on the kidney function of a healthy athlete, period. Now of course too much of anything can be harmful and I suppose it's possible a healthy person could eat enough protein over a long enough period of time to effect kidney function, but it is very unlikely and has yet to be shown in the scientific literature in healthy athletes.

Since an exhaustive search of the published literature will likely not yield a single study showing that the amount of protein in the diet causes, or is correlated with, the onset of renal dysfunction in otherwise healthy individuals, the fact that this notion prevails is puzzling to say the least!

But even if a doctor were to find an obscure reference that might suggest a relationship between a high-protein diet and kidney disease, there are numerous studies showing otherwise. Here are a few of them:

a) Ann Intern Med 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7
The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency.
Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC.

b) Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Mar;10(1):28-38
Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes?
Poortmans JR, Dellalieux O.

c) Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1999 Nov;23(11):1170-7
Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low-protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects.
Skov AR, Toubro S, Bulow J, Krabbe K, Parving HH, Astrup A.

d) Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.

e) Am J Kidney Dis 2003 Mar;41(3):580-7
Association of dietary protein intake and microalbuminuria in healthy adults: Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. "Dietary protein intake was not associated with microalbuminuria in normotensive or nondiabetic persons."

Ano
07-02-2007, 12:51 AM
READ THIS POST:


"The most common type of kidney stone is composed of calcium oxalate crystals, and factors that promote the precipitation of crystals in the urine are associated with the development of these stones."

This is because virtually everyone takes in too much protein to handle, and as I explained before, when protein is excreted, it takes calcium with it.

Why is calcium taken in order to excrete protein?

1. Calcium is taken from bones and muscle tissue to balance out the PH levels
So it also leads to decreased bone density in some people because it leeches too much calcium from their bones.
"

Even, if that was true, you can easily prevent the calcium loss by consuming fruits and/or veggies, which produce alkaline loads in the body.

When you consume plenty of fruits and veggies , you will not have to worry about excessive dietary acid causing bone loss, because fruits and veggies will neutralize the dietary acid you get when you eat high protein foods.

I realize a hypothesis stands that over a long period of time, a high protein diet may contribute to the onset of osteoporosis. However, the real world data is somewhat mixed. Low subject numbers, improper methodology, and several other errors flawed many of the early studies that demonstrated calcium loss due to increased protein intake. (1)

There is some recent evidence suggesting that an increase in dietary protein may not cause an increase in calcium excretion at all and an increase in dietary protein may potentially improve bone mass in the elderly. (2)

Moreover, several epidemiological studies actually found a positive association between protein intake and bone mineral density.(3,4) Furthermore, low protein diets may actually have a detrimental effect on bone. Although low protein intakes cause less calcium to be excreted, they also cause a reduction in calcium absorption through the intestine.(5)

The net effect is a DECREASE in calcium balance due to a reduction in protein intake.

1. Ginty F. Dietary protein and bone health. Proc Nutr Soc 2003;62:867-76.

2. Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS, Rasmussen H et al. Effect of dietary protein supplements on calcium excretion in healthy older men and women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2004;89:1169-73.

3. Geinoz G, Rapin CH, Rizzoli R et al. Relationship between bone mineral density and dietary intakes in the elderly. Osteoporos Int 1993;3:242-8.

4. Cooper C, Atkinson EJ, Hensrud DD et al. Dietary protein intake and bone mass in women. Calcif Tissue Int 1996;58:320-325.

5. Kerstetter JE, Svastislee C, Caseria D et al. A threshold for low-protein-diet-induced elevations in parathyroid hormone. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72:168-173.

Ano
07-02-2007, 01:07 AM
Yeah, muscle milk is the best of the best. Expensive, but the class of MRPs. T-mag wrote a very negative article on it, but I question their motivations.

A lot of the fat in it is apparently MCT, which is not easily stored as bodyfat. It works a lot like carbohydrates in that it can be quickly be converted into energy, but it's difficult to store. Though a lot of MCT should also cause some gastric distress.

Base fat in muscle milk is unrefined canola oil. I'm a little uncomfortable with that, because one doesn't really need more O6 in a normal diet except for a GLA supplement. But the ratio itself is fine. You'd need to supplement with some fish oil to make sure the anti-inflammatory effects are there.

Tricky, commercial medium-chain triglyceride (MCT) products were first made in the 1950's using extracts of coconut oil. MCT's contain saturated fatty acids with chains of six to twelve carbon atoms.

Part of the interest with medium-chain triglycerides stems from their use in clinical settings where patients had problems digesting and absorbing long-chain fatty acids.

Apparently, MCT's tend to behave differently in the body than long chain fatty acids.

They are more soluble in water and can pass from the intestines directly into the bloodstream.

Normally, fatty acids travel through the lymphatic system, eventually arriving at the liver and then enter into general circulation, a rather slow process. But because of their shorter carbon-chain configuration, it appears that the body favors MCT's as energy substrates.

However, studies on long-distance athletes taking MCT products have not yet shown any significant improvements in athletic performance. Common side effects reported in these studies include abdominal cramping and diarrhea. If you plan to experiment with MCT's, you should use formulas that also contain the essential fatty acids.

MCT's are basically middle of the road, regarding health effects, better then saturated fatty acids, but not as good as essential fatty acids, EPA, DHA, LNA, and monounsaturated fatty acids. It is best to focus on getting your essential fatty acid intake perfected, before experimenting with consumption of saturated, non-essential fatty acids.

A few years ago, I read articles that are claiming the MCT's in Coconut oils will shrink fat cells. One article in a women's magazine even had a headline that said: A "bad fat" from the pacific islands? This new craze apparently has started from the publishing of some new books about coconut oils.

However, as I previously mentioned there are much healthier oils for you to include in your diets. Also, I have not seen any proof, cultural or scientific that supports the claims being made the MCT's shrink fat cells.

If you encounter any research on this please let me know.

My observations and independent scientific studies did not report any measurable benefits of bodybuilders or other athletes taking MCT oils for fat loss or performance.

EricW
07-02-2007, 08:04 AM
So what are the medical facts behind these claims and why do so many people, including some medical professionals and nutritionists, still believe it?

For starters, the negative health claims of the high protein diet on kidney function is based on information gathered from people who have preexisting kidney problems.

Any studies that show a correlation between renal (kidney) dysfunction and protein intake are in those with some type of diagnosed, pre-existing renal (kidney) disease like diabetic nephropathy, glomerular lesions, etc. Even research into protein restriction for renal patients can be controversial. (Shils, Modern Nutr in Health & Dis, 1999).

Besides, you’ll likely recognize a serious pre-existing kidney condition; the signs and symptoms will clue you in long before you happen upon it with a routine blood test (especially if there's a noted family history of diabetes mellitus and hypertension).

You see one of the jobs of the kidneys is the excretion of urea (generally a non toxic compound) that is formed from ammonia (a very toxic compound) which comes from the protein in our diets. People with serious kidney problems have trouble excreting the urea placing more stress on the kidneys and so the logic goes that a high protein diet must be hard on the kidneys for healthy athletes also.

Now for the medical and scientific facts. There is not a single scientific study published in a reputable peer - reviewed journal using healthy adults with normal kidney function that has shown any kidney dysfunction what so ever from a high protein diet. There aren’t even any correlational studies showing this effect in healthy people.

Not one of the studies done with healthy individual I have read, has shown any kidney abnormalities at all. If you happen to know even only 1 study, please let me know.

Furthermore, animals studies done using high protein diets also fail to show any kidney dysfunction in healthy animals. Now don't forget, in the real world, where millions of athletes have been following high protein diets for decades, there has never been a case of kidney failure in a healthy athlete that was determined to have been caused solely by a high protein diet.

If the high protein diet was indeed putting undo stress on our kidneys, we would have seen many cases of kidney abnormalities, but we don't nor will we. From a personal perspective as a consultant for many top bodybuilders in my country, I have known bodybuilders eating high protein diets (300 – 400 grams a day) who showed no kidney dysfunction or kidney problems and I personally read the damn blood tests!

Bottom line? 1-1.5 grams or protein per pound of bodyweight will have absolutely no ill effects on the kidney function of a healthy athlete, period. Now of course too much of anything can be harmful and I suppose it's possible a healthy person could eat enough protein over a long enough period of time to effect kidney function, but it is very unlikely and has yet to be shown in the scientific literature in healthy athletes.

Since an exhaustive search of the published literature will likely not yield a single study showing that the amount of protein in the diet causes, or is correlated with, the onset of renal dysfunction in otherwise healthy individuals, the fact that this notion prevails is puzzling to say the least!

But even if a doctor were to find an obscure reference that might suggest a relationship between a high-protein diet and kidney disease, there are numerous studies showing otherwise. Here are a few of them:

a) Ann Intern Med 2003 Mar 18;138(6):460-7
The impact of protein intake on renal function decline in women with normal renal function or mild renal insufficiency.
Knight EL, Stampfer MJ, Hankinson SE, Spiegelman D, Curhan GC.

b) Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 2000 Mar;10(1):28-38
Do regular high protein diets have potential health risks on kidney function in athletes?
Poortmans JR, Dellalieux O.

c) Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord 1999 Nov;23(11):1170-7
Changes in renal function during weight loss induced by high vs low-protein low-fat diets in overweight subjects.
Skov AR, Toubro S, Bulow J, Krabbe K, Parving HH, Astrup A.

d) Eur J Clin Nutr 1996 Nov;50(11):734-40
Effect of chronic dietary protein intake on the renal function in healthy subjects.
Brandle E, Sieberth HG, Hautmann RE.

e) Am J Kidney Dis 2003 Mar;41(3):580-7
Association of dietary protein intake and microalbuminuria in healthy adults: Third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey. "Dietary protein intake was not associated with microalbuminuria in normotensive or nondiabetic persons."

Have you ever met one of those bodybuilders who drink al those protein shakes, take all the supplement things and everything and they told you that their doctor told them to slow down because their kidney/liver is taking damage?

But for the sake of the arguement let's agree that your kidney and liver will be fine:

So, excess protein will still be excreted and it will take calcium with it, but you don't beleive that do you? Take a look at this site, and check out the chart:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/mar/dairy.htm

The chart is 1/2 way down the page and it explains that the more protein in the diet of the people of that country increases as hip fractures per 100,000 people increases.

This proves that excess protein takes calcium with it, causes kidney stones, and causes osteoporosis.

--------------------------------------------------------

"Problems of Excess Nutrients

Most people think of health problems in terms of deficiencies of nutrients; this is the reason vitamin and mineral supplements are so popular. However, I do not see diseases of deficiency in my patients. For example, I see no vitamin C deficiency (scurvy), B1 deficiency (Beriberi), or protein deficiency in my patients. Rather, I see diseases of excess – such as excess dietary fat (obesity), cholesterol (heart disease), and salt (hypertension). Therefore, feeding an overly-concentrated food such as cow's milk to people (infants, children, and adults) promotes diseases of excess. (Some of you are still thinking cow's milk corrects calcium deficiency in people, preventing osteoporosis. Be patient, in a moment I will show you this is not true.)

Replacing human breast milk with cow's milk was once tried in the mid-1800s in the United States for emergency situations (such as when a mother died in childbirth). The result was a quick death for most of the infants, because the high protein content of the cow's milk forced fluid losses from the infant's kidneys, resulting in dehydration.5 Once this problem was recognized, then infant formulas were developed which added sugar to the cow's milk in order to reduce the protein concentration of the cow's milk and make it more resemble human milk. Some of you may be old enough to remember making or drinking infant formula made from Carnation evaporated cow's milk and Karo syrup (sugar).6 (This is a very unhealthy formula for infants – do not use this).

Consider the purpose of cow's milk. This is an ideal food to grow a calf from its 60-pound birthweight to a 600-pound young cow, ready to wean. This is a high “octane” fuel. One obvious consequence of people eating “calf food” is rapid fat gain – and dairy products are one of the leading contributors to the epidemic of excess body fat affecting 25% of children and 65% of adults in Western populations. Matters are made even worse when cow's milk is converted into even more concentrated products, like cheeses.

Cow's milk products have some important nutritional deficiencies.4 They are completely devoid of fiber; and contain insufficient amounts of vitamins, like C and niacin, and minerals, like iron, to meet the human body's needs."

Resource: http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030400pudairyproductsfalsepromises.htm

EricW
07-02-2007, 08:09 AM
Tricky, commercial medium-chain triglyceride (MCT) products were first made in the 1950's using extracts of coconut oil. MCT's contain saturated fatty acids with chains of six to twelve carbon atoms.

Part of the interest with medium-chain triglycerides stems from their use in clinical settings where patients had problems digesting and absorbing long-chain fatty acids.

Apparently, MCT's tend to behave differently in the body than long chain fatty acids.

They are more soluble in water and can pass from the intestines directly into the bloodstream.

Normally, fatty acids travel through the lymphatic system, eventually arriving at the liver and then enter into general circulation, a rather slow process. But because of their shorter carbon-chain configuration, it appears that the body favors MCT's as energy substrates.

However, studies on long-distance athletes taking MCT products have not yet shown any significant improvements in athletic performance. Common side effects reported in these studies include abdominal cramping and diarrhea. If you plan to experiment with MCT's, you should use formulas that also contain the essential fatty acids.

MCT's are basically middle of the road, regarding health effects, better then saturated fatty acids, but not as good as essential fatty acids, EPA, DHA, LNA, and monounsaturated fatty acids. It is best to focus on getting your essential fatty acid intake perfected, before experimenting with consumption of saturated, non-essential fatty acids.

A few years ago, I read articles that are claiming the MCT's in Coconut oils will shrink fat cells. One article in a women's magazine even had a headline that said: A "bad fat" from the pacific islands? This new craze apparently has started from the publishing of some new books about coconut oils.

However, as I previously mentioned there are much healthier oils for you to include in your diets. Also, I have not seen any proof, cultural or scientific that supports the claims being made the MCT's shrink fat cells.

If you encounter any research on this please let me know.

My observations and independent scientific studies did not report any measurable benefits of bodybuilders or other athletes taking MCT oils for fat loss or performance.

If you want to learn more about the fat found in coconuts, read this entire article:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2006nl/may/coconut.htm

EricW
07-02-2007, 08:18 AM
Even, if that was true, you can easily prevent the calcium loss by consuming fruits and/or veggies, which produce alkaline loads in the body.

When you consume plenty of fruits and veggies , you will not have to worry about excessive dietary acid causing bone loss, because fruits and veggies will neutralize the dietary acid you get when you eat high protein foods.

I realize a hypothesis stands that over a long period of time, a high protein diet may contribute to the onset of osteoporosis. However, the real world data is somewhat mixed. Low subject numbers, improper methodology, and several other errors flawed many of the early studies that demonstrated calcium loss due to increased protein intake. (1)

There is some recent evidence suggesting that an increase in dietary protein may not cause an increase in calcium excretion at all and an increase in dietary protein may potentially improve bone mass in the elderly. (2)

Moreover, several epidemiological studies actually found a positive association between protein intake and bone mineral density.(3,4) Furthermore, low protein diets may actually have a detrimental effect on bone. Although low protein intakes cause less calcium to be excreted, they also cause a reduction in calcium absorption through the intestine.(5)

The net effect is a DECREASE in calcium balance due to a reduction in protein intake.

1. Ginty F. Dietary protein and bone health. Proc Nutr Soc 2003;62:867-76.

2. Dawson-Hughes B, Harris SS, Rasmussen H et al. Effect of dietary protein supplements on calcium excretion in healthy older men and women. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2004;89:1169-73.

3. Geinoz G, Rapin CH, Rizzoli R et al. Relationship between bone mineral density and dietary intakes in the elderly. Osteoporos Int 1993;3:242-8.

4. Cooper C, Atkinson EJ, Hensrud DD et al. Dietary protein intake and bone mass in women. Calcif Tissue Int 1996;58:320-325.

5. Kerstetter JE, Svastislee C, Caseria D et al. A threshold for low-protein-diet-induced elevations in parathyroid hormone. Am J Clin Nutr 2000;72:168-173.


All you gotta do is read this: http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/mar/dairy.htm

Half way down, read the chart. Also read my other post

zapvor
07-02-2007, 09:12 AM
i am way too skinny for my height. so i need to put on some weight, even if its fat. i can easily transform the fat into muscle. the hard part for me is gaining weight at all. my metabolism is like superman. i can eat 5000 calories and not make a dent in gaining weight. the last time i went to the doctor i asked him and i am about 24lbs under for my height, and i just weighed myself within this past week and i have dropped another 8lbs. so i am in big trouble. i am going to look like a ethiopian lol

chess9
07-02-2007, 10:34 AM
i am way too skinny for my height. so i need to put on some weight, even if its fat. i can easily transform the fat into muscle. the hard part for me is gaining weight at all. my metabolism is like superman. i can eat 5000 calories and not make a dent in gaining weight. the last time i went to the doctor i asked him and i am about 24lbs under for my height, and i just weighed myself within this past week and i have dropped another 8lbs. so i am in big trouble. i am going to look like a ethiopian lol

Zap:

The typical problem here is the difference between the perception of the number of calories you are consuming and the actual number of calories you are consuming. To eat 5,000 calories a day you would have to eat a ton of food. That's like, what, 7 quarter pounders with cheese? :)

You young guys are so active you often do not eat enough. It's that simple. To gain weight at your age, eating has to be a major focus, not an afterthought.

Eat calorically dense foods and lots of fruits and veggies and you will gain weight. Chicken breasts, nuts, whey protein, low fat cheeses, etc.

-Robert

zapvor
07-02-2007, 10:48 AM
Zap:

The typical problem here is the difference between the perception of the number of calories you are consuming and the actual number of calories you are consuming. To eat 5,000 calories a day you would have to eat a ton of food. That's like, what, 7 quarter pounders with cheese? :)

You young guys are so active you often do not eat enough. It's that simple. To gain weight at your age, eating has to be a major focus, not an afterthought.

Eat calorically dense foods and lots of fruits and veggies and you will gain weight. Chicken breasts, nuts, whey protein, low fat cheeses, etc.

-Robert

you are right. i am far from taking in 5000 calories. i am probably barely breaking 2000 because i am on the tennis court from 3-8pm which means i missed dinner. but i am saying even if i did do 5000 i would probably barely maintain my weight. sucks that i hate watching tv and video games or sitting on the sofa haha. but 7 double cheeseburgers? mmmmm. i remeber going to smoothie king and getting the hulk because it has the most calories out of all the choices (like 920) and after i finished it i felt nothing.

chess9
07-02-2007, 11:49 AM
you are right. i am far from taking in 5000 calories. i am probably barely breaking 2000 because i am on the tennis court from 3-8pm which means i missed dinner. but i am saying even if i did do 5000 i would probably barely maintain my weight. sucks that i hate watching tv and video games or sitting on the sofa haha. but 7 double cheeseburgers? mmmmm. i remeber going to smoothie king and getting the hulk because it has the most calories out of all the choices (like 920) and after i finished it i felt nothing.

Yes, because you are probably running a huge deficit by not eating and so your body must EAT MUSCLE to stay alive. It's called catabolism. Not good. Start eating right, and your whole life will improve.

Good luck, champ!

-Robert

Ano
07-02-2007, 05:46 PM
Have you ever met one of those bodybuilders who drink al those protein shakes, take all the supplement things and everything and they told you that their doctor told them to slow down because their kidney/liver is taking damage?

But for the sake of the arguement let's agree that your kidney and liver will be fine:

So, excess protein will still be excreted and it will take calcium with it, but you don't beleive that do you? Take a look at this site, and check out the chart:

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/mar/dairy.htm

The chart is 1/2 way down the page and it explains that the more protein in the diet of the people of that country increases as hip fractures per 100,000 people increases.

This proves that excess protein takes calcium with it, causes kidney stones, and causes osteoporosis.



I've check out the link you gave. And what I will say? I don't buy that.

Tthe increase in titratable acids (at the kidney and blood plasma level) produced by increased protein intake is often "auto-regulated" by the very foods that are used to increase protein intake. Some examples include: increased consumption of L-glutamine, L-arginine, phosphates, and Calcium from some dairy proteins.

In addition, there isn't a responsible performance, health and wellness authority in existence that wouldn't recommend a more balanced approach to nutrition with plentiful fibrous vegetables, greens, fruits, phytonutrient condiments.

All of which offer tons of alkali buffers, chemical salts (Potassium salts, etc.), reduced net acid and titratable acid excretion, and decreased calciuria to counter any "potential" renal acid load/acidogenic protein-rich animal foods.

Also of note, that the amount of 'calciuria' (amount of calcium excreted in the urine) as a result of increased dairy/acid-ash containing meat protein is very minimal (near inconsequential) and most influenced by the concentration of sulfar-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine).

Ultimately, there are MANY factors involved that interact with bone health and acid-base status besides protein consumption (type of protein being consumed, comprehensive diet, supplements, physical acitvity, medical history, medications, lifestyle, and genetic/ epi-genetic, etc.).

Oftentimes, the kind of mis-information that is delivered to the public is simply irresponsible and non-productive.

The long and short of it: to our knowledge, there is no CONVINCING HUMAN data showing that a high or moderately-high protein intake, using COMPLEX protiens, for PROLONGED periods of time, under strictly CONTROLLED dietary conditions, causes significant calcium loss, much less perturbed bone mineral content/bone mineral density, or much much less osetomalacia/porosis, worsened bone architecture and fracture risk.

Here's the latest study I found about protein and kidney.

Contrib Nephrol. 2007;155:102-12

Dietary protein intake and kidney disease in Western diet.

Components of the diet related to changes in eating habits that characterize the modern Western world are important factors in the increasingly high prevalence of chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes, hypertension and as a consequence, chronic kidney disease.

The healthy diets recommended for the general population to promote longevity (such as the Mediterranean diet), are defined based on epidemiological and intervention studies and are usually characterized by a relatively higher amount of protein than the usual Western diet.

Unfortunately, very few clinical studies focused on diet-based strategies of prevention of kidney disorders. Furthermore, this review will propose that the concept that protein restricted diets decrease the risk of developing kidney disease in the general population is not supported by the scientific literature.

Indeed, preliminary studies showing a positive effect of relatively high protein diets on risk factors for chronic kidney disease (particularly on obesity, hypertension and diabetes) point to the need for future studies addressing diets that could prevent the increasingly high prevalence of kidney disease in the Western world.

On the other hand, there is a potential role for protein restriction in patients with established kidney disease, particularly in patients with significant decrease in glomerular filtration rate.

The exact protective action of protein restriction in patients with established renal disease needs further analysis, taking into account the more broad effects of protein restriction (lower phosphate, acidosis, uric acid) and a more current definition of malnutrition.

Ano
07-02-2007, 06:17 PM
Oh, one more thing, in the textbook, “Total Nutrition : The Only Guide You’ll ever need” from the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, the authors, Victor Herbert and Genell Shubak-Sharpe, had this to say about protein and kidney disease:

“High protein diets have never been proven to be a serious hazard for healthy people, although processing excess protein can overburden a liver or kidneys that are damaged by disease. That’s why individuals with kidney or liver disease are often put on protein-restricted diets.”

And here’s what Herbert and Shubak-Sharpe had to say about protein and osteoporosis”

“Our typical high-protein, high meat diets have also been implicated as a factor in the development of osteopororis, but these claims may be the results of misinterpreting scientific research.

Studies have shown that adding purified protein suppements and amino-acid mistures that have had their phosphate remoded do increase excretion of calcium by the kidney in both animals and humans.

However, several long-term controlled human studies carried out by Herta Spencer, M.D., at the Hines VA Medical Center in Illinois have shown that high intakes of protein from natural protein sources such as meat, which have their phosphate intact, do not significantly increase calcium loss.”

EricW
07-02-2007, 07:22 PM
I've check out the link you gave. And what I will say? I don't buy that.

Tthe increase in titratable acids (at the kidney and blood plasma level) produced by increased protein intake is often "auto-regulated" by the very foods that are used to increase protein intake. Some examples include: increased consumption of L-glutamine, L-arginine, phosphates, and Calcium from some dairy proteins.

In addition, there isn't a responsible performance, health and wellness authority in existence that wouldn't recommend a more balanced approach to nutrition with plentiful fibrous vegetables, greens, fruits, phytonutrient condiments.

All of which offer tons of alkali buffers, chemical salts (Potassium salts, etc.), reduced net acid and titratable acid excretion, and decreased calciuria to counter any "potential" renal acid load/acidogenic protein-rich animal foods.

Also of note, that the amount of 'calciuria' (amount of calcium excreted in the urine) as a result of increased dairy/acid-ash containing meat protein is very minimal (near inconsequential) and most influenced by the concentration of sulfar-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine).

Ultimately, there are MANY factors involved that interact with bone health and acid-base status besides protein consumption (type of protein being consumed, comprehensive diet, supplements, physical acitvity, medical history, medications, lifestyle, and genetic/ epi-genetic, etc.).

Oftentimes, the kind of mis-information that is delivered to the public is simply irresponsible and non-productive.

The long and short of it: to our knowledge, there is no CONVINCING HUMAN data showing that a high or moderately-high protein intake, using COMPLEX protiens, for PROLONGED periods of time, under strictly CONTROLLED dietary conditions, causes significant calcium loss, much less perturbed bone mineral content/bone mineral density, or much much less osetomalacia/porosis, worsened bone architecture and fracture risk.

Here's the latest study I found about protein and kidney.

Contrib Nephrol. 2007;155:102-12

Dietary protein intake and kidney disease in Western diet.

Components of the diet related to changes in eating habits that characterize the modern Western world are important factors in the increasingly high prevalence of chronic disease, including obesity, diabetes, hypertension and as a consequence, chronic kidney disease.

The healthy diets recommended for the general population to promote longevity (such as the Mediterranean diet), are defined based on epidemiological and intervention studies and are usually characterized by a relatively higher amount of protein than the usual Western diet.

Unfortunately, very few clinical studies focused on diet-based strategies of prevention of kidney disorders. Furthermore, this review will propose that the concept that protein restricted diets decrease the risk of developing kidney disease in the general population is not supported by the scientific literature.

Indeed, preliminary studies showing a positive effect of relatively high protein diets on risk factors for chronic kidney disease (particularly on obesity, hypertension and diabetes) point to the need for future studies addressing diets that could prevent the increasingly high prevalence of kidney disease in the Western world.

On the other hand, there is a potential role for protein restriction in patients with established kidney disease, particularly in patients with significant decrease in glomerular filtration rate.

The exact protective action of protein restriction in patients with established renal disease needs further analysis, taking into account the more broad effects of protein restriction (lower phosphate, acidosis, uric acid) and a more current definition of malnutrition.

Take my word for it, this man (Dr. Mcdougall) is very crediable, I didn't just happen upon his site during this arguement, I've followed his studies, his articles, and his beliefs for years. I'm sure he didn't just make up that hip fractures/protein intake graph. And that chart says something...

Tthe increase in titratable acids (at the kidney and blood plasma level) produced by increased protein intake is often "auto-regulated" by the very foods that are used to increase protein intake. Some examples include: increased consumption of L-glutamine, L-arginine, phosphates, and Calcium from some dairy proteins.

Alright, say when you drink milk it is auto regulated with all the calcium you get from it. You're still excreting that calcium in order to regulate the acidic levels of the protein, so what happens? Kidney stones happens, and to a lot of people in the USA. One thing that causes kidney stones is the excretion of calcium.

Also of note, that the amount of 'calciuria' (amount of calcium excreted in the urine) as a result of increased dairy/acid-ash containing meat protein is very minimal (near inconsequential) and most influenced by the concentration of sulfar-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine).

Then why do people develop kidney stones if for example, the calcium excreted isn't signifcant? "near inconsequential"

The long and short of it: to our knowledge, there is no CONVINCING HUMAN data showing that a high or moderately-high protein intake, using COMPLEX protiens, for PROLONGED periods of time, under strictly CONTROLLED dietary conditions, causes significant calcium loss, much less perturbed bone mineral content/bone mineral density, or much much less osetomalacia/porosis, worsened bone architecture and fracture risk.

Why are so many people getting osteoporosis in the western world?

Alright, read this:

Why the hell would our country be riddled with disease, obesity, etc? Because the western diet is TERRIBLE

And something we eat a sh*t ton of here that people don't eat in healthy places of the world is: Meat and dairy

EricW
07-02-2007, 07:27 PM
Oh, one more thing, in the textbook, “Total Nutrition : The Only Guide You’ll ever need” from the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine, the authors, Victor Herbert and Genell Shubak-Sharpe, had this to say about protein and kidney disease:

“High protein diets have never been proven to be a serious hazard for healthy people, although processing excess protein can overburden a liver or kidneys that are damaged by disease. That’s why individuals with kidney or liver disease are often put on protein-restricted diets.”

And here’s what Herbert and Shubak-Sharpe had to say about protein and osteoporosis”

“Our typical high-protein, high meat diets have also been implicated as a factor in the development of osteopororis, but these claims may be the results of misinterpreting scientific research.

Studies have shown that adding purified protein suppements and amino-acid mistures that have had their phosphate remoded do increase excretion of calcium by the kidney in both animals and humans.

However, several long-term controlled human studies carried out by Herta Spencer, M.D., at the Hines VA Medical Center in Illinois have shown that high intakes of protein from natural protein sources such as meat, which have their phosphate intact, do not significantly increase calcium loss.”

“High protein diets have never been proven to be a serious hazard for healthy people, although processing excess protein can overburden a liver or kidneys that are damaged by disease. That’s why individuals with kidney or liver disease are often put on protein-restricted diets.”

If it can be a hazard to unhealthy people, shouldn't it over time wear down even a healthy liver/kidney?

Also, why do you think their is so much kidney and liver diseases in the western world? Because of all the excess protein most people in the US take in.


However, several long-term controlled human studies carried out by Herta Spencer, M.D., at the Hines VA Medical Center in Illinois have shown that high intakes of protein from natural protein sources such as meat, which have their phosphate intact, do not significantly increase calcium loss.”

significantly? Whose to say whats significant when so many people in the western world are developing kidney stones, kidney and liver disease, and tons of other diseases?

EricW
07-02-2007, 07:30 PM
Also, eating animal products is the only way to develop high cholestoral. This is another reason animal products are a hazard

Ano
07-02-2007, 08:04 PM
Alright, say when you drink milk it is auto regulated with all the calcium you get from it. You're still excreting that calcium in order to regulate the acidic levels of the protein, so what happens? Kidney stones happens, and to a lot of people in the USA. One thing that causes kidney stones is the excretion of calcium.

Why are so many people getting osteoporosis in the western world?

Alright, read this:

Why the hell would our country be riddled with disease, obesity, etc? Because the western diet is TERRIBLEAnd something we eat a sh*t ton of here that people don't eat in healthy places of the world is: Meat and dairy

That's the reason why you should include plenty of fruits and veggies in your diet. I agree, one of the factors that determines calcium loss is the acid base balance. If your diet has high levels of acid, you'll lose more calcium in urine, if you eat more alkaline foods (such as fruits and veggies), you'll retain more calcium.

one of the reason why many people get osteoporosis in the western world is because they don't consume enough fruits and veggies.

Lean meats (which don't contain plenty of saturated fat, such as : skinless turkey breast, chicken breast, lean beef, salmon etc.) are good foods and highly recommended. Of course, I agree with you that meat is not healthy if you are talking about fatty hamburger, dry salami, link pork sausage, bacon, iverwurst sausage, bologna, hotdog etc, I


If it can be a hazard to unhealthy people, shouldn't it over time wear down even a healthy liver/kidney?

Also, why do you think their is so much kidney and liver diseases in the western world? Because of all the excess protein most people in the US take in.

significantly? Whose to say whats significant when so many people in the western world are developing kidney stones, kidney and liver disease, and tons of other diseases?

You can't blame protein. Western's diet contain too much saturated and trans fat, sugar and salt.

Also, eating animal products is the only way to develop high cholestoral. This is another reason animal products are a hazard


Again, there is a big difference between leat meat and fatty meat.

Eric, I really appreciate your posts. However, Internet posts aren't likely to change either of our minds and I don't want to waste either of our time (especially mine) any further on this topic so I'm bowing out.

Thanks again.

Arguing on the internet has to be the biggest waste of time ever, even if you win - you're still a loser (politically correct version of that line!) ;)

chess9
07-03-2007, 05:08 AM
That's a very interesting discussion about protein and calcium guys. As an experiment of one, I have been taking protein supplements since 1963. I think the first stuff was Joe Weider, but I may not recall correctly. Anyway, I was in the service and lifting and only a couple of guys were trying it. I kept using it and still use it today. That is about 44 years of using protein supplements. I have no protein, bone, or kidney problems. I'm dumber than a box of rocks, but there is no evidence linking that condition to anything but my parents. :)

-Robert

chess9
07-03-2007, 05:11 AM
Ano:

It's one brick in the wall at a time. Ideas are like electrons whirring about the atom. Sometimes one comes loose and does some damage. I like to keep trying to pry those buggers loose. :) Your comments have changed a lot of minds. Most of the guys are just too lazy or busy or thoughtless to say so.

Anyway, good health is like a religion to me. I worship it every day!

-Robert

zapvor
07-03-2007, 08:23 AM
Yes, because you are probably running a huge deficit by not eating and so your body must EAT MUSCLE to stay alive. It's called catabolism. Not good. Start eating right, and your whole life will improve.

Good luck, champ!

-Robert

sigh. maybe i should go to lunch. but the question remains: i can have muscle milk to help right?

xtremerunnerars
07-03-2007, 10:05 AM
YES YOU CAN. There is one person attempting to discredit it and products like it while there's another one and an entire bodybuilding forum that supports it.

Obviously it's not optimal to be having muscle milk instead of real food, but if it's after a workout or before bed or just more convenient, have some.

Here are links from said forum:
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/41875-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/36104-cytosport-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/33938-questions-about-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/34906-muscle-milk-n-large.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html

EricW
07-03-2007, 05:03 PM
YES YOU CAN. There is one person attempting to discredit it and products like it while there's another one and an entire bodybuilding forum that supports it.

Obviously it's not optimal to be having muscle milk instead of real food, but if it's after a workout or before bed or just more convenient, have some.

Here are links from said forum:
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/41875-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/36104-cytosport-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/33938-questions-about-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/34906-muscle-milk-n-large.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html

sigh. maybe i should go to lunch. but the question remains: i can have muscle milk to help right?

Me and Ano both displayed a lot of evidence, and you guys are just going to have to decide for yourselves.

stormholloway
07-03-2007, 05:23 PM
YES YOU CAN. There is one person attempting to discredit it and products like it while there's another one and an entire bodybuilding forum that supports it.

Obviously it's not optimal to be having muscle milk instead of real food, but if it's after a workout or before bed or just more convenient, have some.

Here are links from said forum:
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/41875-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/36104-cytosport-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/33938-questions-about-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/34906-muscle-milk-n-large.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html

Do you think that by posting what people in a body building forum say means it's fact? That'd be like my taking snippets from this forum and showing them to people as facts. Get real.

Artificial sweeteners are terrible for your body. If you insist on taking them, then go ahead. I won't stop you. I can only look out for my body. But my facts will roll over anyone's opinions any day of the week.

An "entire body building forum that supports it"... laughable. Of course we can always trust body builders to take the best care of their bodies.

EricW
07-03-2007, 05:24 PM
That's the reason why you should include plenty of fruits and veggies in your diet. I agree, one of the factors that determines calcium loss is the acid base balance. If your diet has high levels of acid, you'll lose more calcium in urine, if you eat more alkaline foods (such as fruits and veggies), you'll retain more calcium.

one of the reason why many people get osteoporosis in the western world is because they don't consume enough fruits and veggies.

Lean meats (which don't contain plenty of saturated fat, such as : skinless turkey breast, chicken breast, lean beef, salmon etc.) are good foods and highly recommended. Of course, I agree with you that meat is not healthy if you are talking about fatty hamburger, dry salami, link pork sausage, bacon, iverwurst sausage, bologna, hotdog etc, I




You can't blame protein. Western's diet contain too much saturated and trans fat, sugar and salt.




Again, there is a big difference between leat meat and fatty meat.

Eric, I really appreciate your posts. However, Internet posts aren't likely to change either of our minds and I don't want to waste either of our time (especially mine) any further on this topic so I'm bowing out.

Thanks again.

Arguing on the internet has to be the biggest waste of time ever, even if you win - you're still a loser (politically correct version of that line!) ;)

Same here. Was a good arguement and hopefully we'll have more discussions in the future. And hopefully we educated some people who read our posts.

EricW
07-03-2007, 05:26 PM
Do you think that by posting what people in a body building forum say means it's fact? That'd be like my taking snippets from this forum and showing them to people as facts. Get real.

Artificial sweeteners are terrible for your body. If you insist on taking them, then go ahead. I won't stop you. I can only look out for my body. But my facts will roll over anyone's opinions any day of the week.

An "entire body building forum that supports it"... laughable. Of course we can always trust body builders to take the best care of their bodies.

Completely true. What i've found in all my experiences is that bodybuilders are the least knowledgeable as far as nutrition is concerned.

stormholloway
07-03-2007, 06:03 PM
I'm really not all that afraid of fatty meats either. Fat is an essential part of the diet. If you're fat, then it makes sense to cut back, otherwise, eat meat. Eat quality meats if you can, from organic farms, but eat meat like there's no tomorrow.

xtremerunnerars
07-03-2007, 06:12 PM
The people who backed those posts (well, a few of them) are equally as qualified as both Ano and the two of you. Some probably more qualified, to tell you the truth.

Kinda bummed that Ano didn't give the full version of that line, it's actually pretty funny if you don't take it terribly seriously :)

stormholloway
07-03-2007, 06:28 PM
Qualified doesn't mean much if you're wrong. It's either true or it's not. Qualifications only matter when you're talking about opinions.

There have been plenty of cited dangers of artificial sweeteners, including cancer risks.

Ano
07-03-2007, 06:52 PM
Qualified doesn't mean much if you're wrong. It's either true or it's not. Qualifications only matter when you're talking about opinions.

There have been plenty of cited dangers of artificial sweeteners, including cancer risks.


Storm, which artificial sweetener are you talking about ?

Can you direct us to the cited dangers of artificial sweeteners?

I can't give opinion about sucralose, because I have not studied sucralose.

But, I have studied aspartame, and I can say aspartame is safe.

DNA mutations, brain tumors, cancer, headaches and chronic fatigue - these are some of the side effects alleged to be associated with aspartame consumption.

Aspartame, commercially known as Nutrasweet, was accidentally discovered in 1965 by Jim Schlatter. Schlatter was trying to discover new treatments for gastric ulcers. It is made of two amino acids, phenylalanine and aspartic acid.

Phenylketonurics - the truth!

Phenylketonurics: Contains Phenylalanine. What about that notorious health disclaimer on aspartame containing foods?

Phenylketonuria (PKU) is an extremely rare condition that mainstream media incorrectly linked to aspartame. PKU is a central nervous system disease characterized by an inability to metabolize excess amounts of phenylalanine. L-phenylalanine is an essential amino acid. It is found in much higher doses in protein rich foods (such as meat, eggs and milk) than aspartame-containing products[1].

Dietary surveys of people in United States, Canada, Germany, and Finland show those considered to be on a "very high aspartame intake" still only consume approximately one-tenth of the daily intake recommended by the US Food and Drug Administration of 50 milligrams/kilogram/day[1]. Ingestion of aspartame does not cause PKU, and even PKU sufferers are unlikely to be harmed by the minimal amount of phenylalanine in aspartame.

Twenty-seven years ago, one study on mice concluded that prolonged dietary ingestion of aspartame at levels 550 times the normal human daily ingestion was necessary to elicit a central nervous system deficit[2]. There have in fact, been over 200 studies conducted over the last two decades that support the safety of aspartame consumption. Trust the media not to let the facts get in the way of selling a story.

There is also the completely unfounded concern about the toxicity of aspartame. One study showed aspartame and another artificial sweetener combined couldn't produce genotoxiciy (damage to DNA) at doses of 350 milligrams/kilogram/day![3] Aspartame's two amino acids, L-phenylalanine and L-aspartic acid, are metabolized like all other amino acids[4].

Now, there's a crusade against aspartame because of its conversion to formaldehyde. Well, I can end that campaign right now. The methyl group from aspartame is metabolized to methanol (an alcohol), then oxidized into formaldehyde, which is further oxidized into carbon dioxide. This fearful metabolic process is as common in our biology as talk shows in America. Ounce for ounce, tomato juice yields six times the methanol formation of a can of diet soda[5].

Over 100 countries including the US (and even the anally-retentive Australian TGA) have approved aspartame's use. Aspartame is also approved by the World Health Organization. The US FDA commissioner even noted at the time of aspartame's approval that few compounds have withstood such detailed testing and close scrutiny.

The unfortunate aspect is, public perception about aspartame has become so distorted and widespread that always eager-to-please food manufacturers have found it easier to rid aspartame from their formulations than quote the research.

Guys, next time someone forces their misinformed opinion of aspartame on you, just smile. Now you've got the facts, and you know better.

References

1. Butchko HH; Kotsonis FN. Acceptable daily intake vs actual intake: the aspartame example. J Am Coll Nutr. Jun;10(3):258-66,1991.

2. Potts WJ; Bloss JL; Nutting EF. Biological properties of aspartame. I. Evaluation of central nervous system effects. J Environ Pathol Toxicol. Jun-Jul;3(5-6):341-53, 1980.

3. Mukhopadhyay M; Mukherjee A; Chakrabarti J. In vivo cytogenetic studies on blends of aspartame and acesulfame-K. Food Chem Toxicol. Jan;38(1):75-7,2000.

4. Lehninger, Nelson, Cox. Principles of Biochemistry 2nd Ed. Worth Publishers 1997. p-527-529.

5. Butchko HH. Safety of aspartame. Lancet Apr 12; 349 ( 9058 ) : 1105, 1997.

xtremerunnerars
07-03-2007, 06:56 PM
All this talk about sweeteners and phenylalanine hydroxylase is messing with my head. Come on guys, that was first nine weeks of bio and I passed the class!

Ronaldo
07-03-2007, 07:10 PM
Would eating fat-free Cottage Cheese supply the protein without the additives of Protein powders?

xtremerunnerars
07-03-2007, 07:21 PM
CC (5 oz) has 100 Calories (kcals), 17.5g protein, 5g carbs, and 1.3g fat.

So it's good for you and is a solid protein source, but the quality in terms of availability and isolation is not up to par with whey isolates. On top of that, I don't think you want to be wolfing down cottage cheese after a grueling workout!

zapvor
07-03-2007, 07:40 PM
YES YOU CAN. There is one person attempting to discredit it and products like it while there's another one and an entire bodybuilding forum that supports it.

Obviously it's not optimal to be having muscle milk instead of real food, but if it's after a workout or before bed or just more convenient, have some.

Here are links from said forum:
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/41875-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/36104-cytosport-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/33938-questions-about-muscle-milk.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/34906-muscle-milk-n-large.html
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/forums/bodybuilding-supplements-central/47622-muscle-milk.html

thank you. i am gonna try it.

zapvor
07-03-2007, 07:43 PM
Me and Ano both displayed a lot of evidence, and you guys are just going to have to decide for yourselves.

yes you two went at it. i started to read it, but didnt get very far. oops....:p

Ano
07-03-2007, 07:54 PM
thank you. i am gonna try it.

Zapvor, there is an alternative that might be cheaper than Muscle Milk.

Mix 1 scoop of Optimum Nutrition Whey Protein Isolate Gold Standard, 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil, fruit (banana) and water in the blender.

Do the math, I think the alternative I gave you is a bit cheaper than 1 serving of Muscle Milk.

And don't forget, beside supplement, you have to eat wholesome foods (rice, potato, fruits, veggies, lean meat etc.). Try to eat 3 meals of foods, and 3 meals of protein/fruit/oil shakes a day.

Use supplement as suplement. Don't use supplement as your main source
of nutrients.

Ronaldo
07-03-2007, 08:00 PM
CC (5 oz) has 100 Calories (kcals), 17.5g protein, 5g carbs, and 1.3g fat.

So it's good for you and is a solid protein source, but the quality in terms of availability and isolation is not up to par with whey isolates. On top of that, I don't think you want to be wolfing down cottage cheese after a grueling workout!

Wish almond flavoured tofu would provide the protein, yummie w/pineapple

zapvor
07-04-2007, 10:47 AM
Zapvor, there is an alternative that might be cheaper than Muscle Milk.

Mix 1 scoop of Optimum Nutrition Whey Protein Isolate Gold Standard, 1 tablespoon of flax seed oil, fruit (banana) and water in the blender.

Do the math, I think the alternative I gave you is a bit cheaper than 1 serving of Muscle Milk.

And don't forget, beside supplement, you have to eat wholesome foods (rice, potato, fruits, veggies, lean meat etc.). Try to eat 3 meals of foods, and 3 meals of protein/fruit/oil shakes a day.

Use supplement as suplement. Don't use supplement as your main source
of nutrients.


good reminder! i think i will just it for after playing.

stormholloway
07-04-2007, 11:23 AM
But, I have studied aspartame, and I can say aspartame is safe.

You lost some credibility with this statement. Aspartame is an absolute poison. Do you think because the FDA approved it that it's safe? If it weren't for Donald Rumsfeld's government connections at the time (he worked for GD Searle, the company now owned by Monsanto of "NutraSweet" fame), aspartame may not have stood a chance at approval.

Just because the government approves something does not make it good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy

Scroll down to Ramazzini Foundation on that page to get an overview of one of the studies of aspartame use. The group that refuted this study was being funded by sweetener manufacturers.

Keep in mind that this chemical, aspartame, is relatively new to our planet, and that not all of its effects are known.

My point is: if it causes tumors in rats, why would you put it in your body?

xtremerunnerars
07-04-2007, 11:36 AM
You're talking about someone's credibility and you post a link from wikipedia?

richw76
07-04-2007, 12:07 PM
The reality is ANYTHING in excess is bad for you and like Ano says all the time it's all about balance. If you want to have a diet Coke fine, your not gonna get a tumor and die...... 10 diet cokes a day? Probably not so good. Of course 10 Coke Classics a day also not so good unless you like going blind and getting diabeties.

Personally I've been trying to steer away from anything processed or containing chemicals that I can't pronounce. That being said I don't obsess, and I'm not gonna go broke spending 500$/month on organic everything.

It's like this protein shake thing, If I had a personel chef to cook my breakfeast, and he made nice snacks, salads and lunch then I wouldn't use protein shakes. But if it's between running and getting an egg mcmuffin, or throwing some protein powder into a shaker, It's a much better alternative.

+++ and guys if you are tired of salads Try making your on Taboulie, taste awesome, and you can make a bunch and it'll last a whole week.

stormholloway
07-04-2007, 12:24 PM
You're talking about someone's credibility and you post a link from wikipedia?

I sure did. Maybe you should read what I post:

Scroll down to Ramazzini Foundation on that page to get an overview of one of the studies of aspartame use. The group that refuted this study was being funded by sweetener manufacturers.

The study itself is readily available to anyone. It's pretty well known. Wikipedia is still a good resource for information because if you challenge anything you can look more deeply. If you think the Ramazzini study didn't take place, then a quick google of it will show otherwise.

Ano
07-04-2007, 05:29 PM
You lost some credibility with this statement. Aspartame is an absolute poison. Do you think because the FDA approved it that it's safe? If it weren't for Donald Rumsfeld's government connections at the time (he worked for GD Searle, the company now owned by Monsanto of "NutraSweet" fame), aspartame may not have stood a chance at approval.

Just because the government approves something does not make it good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy

Scroll down to Ramazzini Foundation on that page to get an overview of one of the studies of aspartame use. The group that refuted this study was being funded by sweetener manufacturers.

Keep in mind that this chemical, aspartame, is relatively new to our planet, and that not all of its effects are known.

My point is: if it causes tumors in rats, why would you put it in your body?


Wow, it's really a big deal if I lost credibility with that statement, right? ;)

Anyway, my opinion about aspartame still stand at this moment, even though that might hurt my credibility. (wink)

GuyClinch
07-04-2007, 10:21 PM
Bleh. I drink musclemilk all the time and I am perfectly healthy. It tastes good and I say it's alot better for you then eating crap from Taco Bell or whatever. Something like Salmon of course is much better for you but I think MM is a nice alternative for alot of people.

As for artficial sweetners - you can buy muscle milk with Stevia which is "natural" not that that makes any difference.

pete

stormholloway
07-05-2007, 03:13 AM
Wow, it's really a big deal if I lost credibility with that statement, right? ;)

Anyway, my opinion about aspartame still stand at this moment, even though that might hurt my credibility. (wink)

I didn't say that to manufacture some attack against you, because I actually respect you quite a bit as a trainer and nutritionist. You're very knowledgable.

My point was that I feel very strongly about this subject and wish you would reconsider your position.

Why artificially sweeten when nature provides plenty of sweetness on her own?

Edit: as an addition, I highly recommend Stevia, which is natural, sweet, and provides fiber.

Ano
07-05-2007, 04:04 AM
I didn't say that to manufacture some attack against you, because I actually respect you quite a bit as a trainer and nutritionist. You're very knowledgable.

My point was that I feel very strongly about this subject and wish you would reconsider your position.
Why artificially sweeten when nature provides plenty of sweetness on her own?

Edit: as an addition, I highly recommend Stevia, which is natural, sweet, and provides fiber.

I didn't consider your words as an attack, that's why I put a smilie in my reply. ;)

Let me clarify thing, I am NOT a nutritionist or Registered Dietitian. Right now I consider my self as a part time fitness/nutrition consultant. My main job is a banker. My degree is in Economy.

Perhaps someday I would reconsider my position on artificial sweetener, but I doubt it, because as a full time Banker now, I have limited time to read medical / scientific journals.

GuyClinch
07-05-2007, 04:21 AM
The reason to use artificial sweetners of course is that extra sugar is a really bad for you. You can prattle on about how "unsafe" artificial sweetners are but REAL sweetners are PROVEN to cause a host of medical problems like obesity, diabetes - and many would say premature aging.

That being said as I said before MM is the last thing to attack - since they make their "natural" line with Stevia.

http://www.amazon.com/CytoSport-Naturals-Muscle-Natural-Chocolate/dp/B000G71A1U

See? We can bring peace to message boards.

Pete

stormholloway
07-05-2007, 01:07 PM
What do you mean when you say "extra" sugar? Doesn't this imply that some normal amount has been exceeded? Too much of anything is bad for you, even water, but sugar in its natural state is perfectly safe. Artificial sweeteners are not natural. That's why they call them artificial. Humans are built to run in harmony with nature. Creating chemicals to simulate sweetness is totally counterintuitive.

And I would venture to say people that get diabetes are eating refined sugars and corn syrups, not raw cane sugars. If you know anyone that only consumes raw sugars from fruits or cane and got diabetes, let me know.

As for the Muscle Milk Natural... I'm sold! Looks really good actually.

GuyClinch
07-05-2007, 10:17 PM
What do you mean when you say "extra" sugar? Doesn't this imply that some normal amount has been exceeded? Too much of anything is bad for you, even water, but sugar in its natural state is perfectly safe. Artificial sweeteners are not natural. That's why they call them artificial. Humans are built to run in harmony with nature. Creating chemicals to simulate sweetness is totally counterintuitive.

Not really. Just because we CAN consume sugar doesn't mean it's perfectly safe or we are "built" to run on it. Our body has a limited ability to cope with alcohol and likewise large amounts of simple sugars or even simple carbs (like bread) are quite troublesome.

Yes it's UNLIKELY to get diabetes from raw fruits - but you could certainly get it from large amount of something very sweet and natural like orange juice.

The large amount of "natural" sugars that would be needed to make something as sweet as musclemilk is would hammer the bodies ability to deal with sugar - leading to high blood sugar levels with cause a host of negative effects including - premature aging, free radical formation, diabetes and obesity.

MM did the smart thing and replaced that unhealthy sugar with substances that wouldn't boost your blood sugar level. You might believe Sucarlose is "deadly" because it's not natural but I don't. And there is a TON of documented evidence as to the damages caused by high blood sugar levels.

To eat truly heatlhy you should strive to lower not only your cane sugar intake but also your simple carb intake..It's hard to do as most of that stuff tastes good. As for fruits - the anti-oxidants fiber and vitamins they contain offset SOME of the damage done by the sugars. But if you want to get technical quite a few vegetables are often better for you.

And BTW did you know foxglove is "natural" try eating some of that and get back to me on how great natural is compared to artificial...

Pete

stormholloway
07-06-2007, 06:14 PM
Funny, you talk about the possibility of orange juice causing diabetes, but then blindly accept the safety of Sucralose, a brand new chemical invention. It's simply twisted thinking. Oranges have been tested. They pass the test. Sucralose is brand new, and hasn't been around long enough for us to know enough about.

Did I say everything that was natural was good? Snake venom is natural too.

Again, you can die of drinking too much water, but Sucralose and Aspartame are poisons. There's a big difference here.

EricW
07-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Not really. Just because we CAN consume sugar doesn't mean it's perfectly safe or we are "built" to run on it. Our body has a limited ability to cope with alcohol and likewise large amounts of simple sugars or even simple carbs (like bread) are quite troublesome.

Yes it's UNLIKELY to get diabetes from raw fruits - but you could certainly get it from large amount of something very sweet and natural like orange juice.

The large amount of "natural" sugars that would be needed to make something as sweet as musclemilk is would hammer the bodies ability to deal with sugar - leading to high blood sugar levels with cause a host of negative effects including - premature aging, free radical formation, diabetes and obesity.

MM did the smart thing and replaced that unhealthy sugar with substances that wouldn't boost your blood sugar level. You might believe Sucarlose is "deadly" because it's not natural but I don't. And there is a TON of documented evidence as to the damages caused by high blood sugar levels.

To eat truly heatlhy you should strive to lower not only your cane sugar intake but also your simple carb intake..It's hard to do as most of that stuff tastes good. As for fruits - the anti-oxidants fiber and vitamins they contain offset SOME of the damage done by the sugars. But if you want to get technical quite a few vegetables are often better for you.

And BTW did you know foxglove is "natural" try eating some of that and get back to me on how great natural is compared to artificial...

Pete

I can't beleive you think artificial sugar is better than real sugar

VinhLam
05-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Well what I'm am about to say is that I'm assuming your taking Muscle Milk as a meal replacement generally. Tennis players really don't take supplements to get buff. They may take it to get bigger and stronger, but like for a body builder is what I'm trying to say. Their is plenty of things you can do. I had the same question which is how I came of course this article. As I have read, Too much of anything is bad. So I say guess take Muscle Milk, but not too much. I can see it MM having some kind of problem for anyone 5-10 years down the road. You can do other things to replace maybe half a serving of MM. Make it a regular thing to eat bananas, apples, or drink regular milk, and then take only half a serving of milk. (like every day at 3pm eat an apple) Get like Borden Hi-Protein Milk. I am only a 17 yr old high school student, so this is just my own opinion with information I know. I have been told Cretin (the ingredient not the supplement) is bad for you, and I think that is the same ingredient I have been told that slows your reaction time. Taking the natural sweeten muscle milk sounds better than the artificial, but I don't believe it will be life threatening either way.

Hope I was Able to help.:)

Hot Sauce
05-18-2009, 09:35 PM
It's more of a meal replacement or can be used as a post-workout shake. It's really quite a popular dirty bulker because it works, and I wouldn't over analyze whether its 'good' or 'bad' for you. I don't think it's gonna kill you.

beamjayman
05-28-2009, 12:15 AM
Yeah, muscle milk is the best of the best. Expensive, but the class of MRPs. T-mag wrote a very negative article on it, but I question their motivations.

A lot of the fat in it is apparently MCT, which is not easily stored as bodyfat. It works a lot like carbohydrates in that it can be quickly be converted into energy, but it's difficult to store. Though a lot of MCT should also cause some gastric distress.

Base fat in muscle milk is unrefined canola oil. I'm a little uncomfortable with that, because one doesn't really need more O6 in a normal diet except for a GLA supplement. But the ratio itself is fine. You'd need to supplement with some fish oil to make sure the anti-inflammatory effects are there.

That's why it gives me gas! Now I've figured it out haha

GuyClinch
05-28-2009, 09:03 PM
Funny, you talk about the possibility of orange juice causing diabetes, but then blindly accept the safety of Sucralose, a brand new chemical invention. It's simply twisted thinking. Oranges have been tested. They pass the test. Sucralose is brand new, and hasn't been around long enough for us to know enough about.

They have been tested? What study has tested the effects of massive amounts of orange juice? Our diet has changed alot since our caveman days.

The human body wasn't meant to cope with the massive amounts of sugar we can now easily ingest in the form of juices or sodas..

This "natural" = good crap is ruining alot of peoples health. Pasta and Bread are both delicious and regarded as natural but they both spike blood sugar levels and can lead to diabetes.

Pete

coachdavidh
05-31-2009, 02:27 PM
We use quite a bit of the collegiate version of muscle milk at the U of Minnesota. I think it is pretty decent stuff, especially for the athletes who have poor nutrition habits.