What Video Camera?

[Mountain Ghost]

Dear friends of the Slow Motion Society (John, Jeff, etc. . . . and anyone else), what video camera do you use, what does it cost, what is it capable of, and, for stroke analysis purposes, do you know of a more moderately priced slow-motion camera of “decent” quality?

MG

[JCo872]

Dear friends of the Slow Motion Society (John, Jeff, etc. . . . and anyone else), what video camera do you use, what does it cost, what is it capable of, and, for stroke analysis purposes, do you know of a more moderately priced slow-motion camera of “decent” quality?

MG

Hey MG.

I use the latest Canon-ZR series (850). I got it for around $300.00 and I manually set the shutter speed to 1/2000. This prevents any bluriness or "double racket/ball" problems from the speed of the stroke. In full daylight, the quality is amazing.

I also think using Mini-DV is preferable to using a camera that records on DVD. It's much easier to pull off small sections of the tape this way and its easier to convert to other formats.

Let me know if you have any other questions. It's a fantastic teaching tool!

Jeff

[wihamilton]

Canon XL2. Amazing camera that does pretty much whatever you want, but it's > $3,000.

Manually setting the shutter speed, as Jeff suggests, will get you a very clear picture regardless of the camera. Configuring a camera properly / framing each shot is just as important as the camera itself.

I would suggest, especially if you set a very fast shutter speed, to film on a bright, sunny day. A fast shutter speed lets in less light, so you want as much making it through as possible. Otherwise, you'll get a dark picture.

Jeff -- you're from the DC area. Are you filming at the Legg Mason next week?

[JCo872]

Canon XL2. Amazing camera that does pretty much whatever you want, but it's > $3,000.

Manually setting the shutter speed, as Jeff suggests, will get you a very clear picture regardless of the camera. Configuring a camera properly / framing each shot is just as important as the camera itself.

I would suggest, especially if you set a very fast shutter speed, to film on a bright, sunny day. A fast shutter speed lets in less light, so you want as much making it through as possible. Otherwise, you'll get a dark picture.

Jeff -- you're from the DC area. Are you filming at the Legg Mason next week?

Hey wihamilton,

I'll be there, yes. Are you from DC? Are you going?

The tournament looks great with Gonzalez, Haas, Roddick, etc. Also there is a lower level women's tournament going on as well, which is fun to watch.

Jeff

[wihamilton]

Jeff,

Born and raised. I'm trying to work through media credentials right now. First time doing it so I'm a little unsure of the process. Any suggestions? Lineup looks very solid. Thanks.

Will

[Mike Cottrill]

MG,
I use the Sony DVD505. I got this camera for more than video taping tennis and sports. The reason I went with this camera was this line of Sony cameras has a feature of recording 240fps for 3 seconds. However, Sony does not let the user select the shutter speed and I believe it sets the max shutter speed to 1/500s which will produce the blurriness that Jeff describes. In the 240fps mode the resolution is reduced as well. None of Sony's consumer video cameras allow manually selecting the shutter speed. This option is only available on their pro-consumer line and up. I find it odd that Sony enables the 240fps but has a max shutter speed of 1/500s. Almost defeats the purpose. I use the 240fps and it works fine for what I need and for the cost I do not know of any other video camera that will record at 240fps. Sometimes I second guess myself and think I should have gone with a Panasonic or Cannon. They allow control of the shutter speed and support a much higher shutter but only record at 30fps interlaced. To get 60fps you de-interlace the raw video. This is what you will see on most of Jeff's and John's site.

I do not mind the issues Jeff describes with DVD and moving from one media to another. I actually prefer this media type. You can either down load from the camera in mpeg format for each segment clip (time from pushing the start and stop button) or put the DVD in the computer and read it like a movie. Now they have hard drives so you can get more data without downloading.

For the cost, the one Jeff listed is a very good option to get 60fps.

[JCo872]

MG,

[COLOR=black]I do not mind the issues Jeff describes with DVD and moving from one media to another. I actually prefer this media type. You can either down load from the camera in mpeg format for each segment clip (time from pushing the start and stop button) or put the DVD in the computer and read it like a movie. Now they have hard drives so you can get more data without downloading.


Mike,

That's good to know about the DVD media being easy to manipulate. I read somewhere that it wasn't, but never tried it myself.

Jeff

[wihamilton]

Mike / Jeff,

What video editing programs do you use?

Will

[Mountain Ghost]

Jeff,

I see the ZR850 for $300, and I read the review of it @ cnet.com. Most of the cons by other users don’t seem to apply to my tennis needs:

- Sub par in low light – I’ll be shooting in daylight
- Useless video light – I won’t be using it
- Unsteady at full zoom – I won’t use full zoom, or I’ll use a tripod
- No analog video in – I won’t need it
- Internal mic picks up tape-drive sound – When I need good sound I’ll use an external mic

A few questions:

- How many frames per second is it capable of?
- Is the USB (2.0?) port for stills only, or can you transfer video through it?
- 1/2000th of a second . . . really?
- What video resolutions: 1280 x 720 @ 16/9? 640 x 480 @ 4/3?
- What makes the DVD versions, like the DC230, less short-clip friendly?
- What are the best tapes to use? Where do you get them?

Also, what video software do you use? How do you get your click-through video clips?

Thanks,

MG

Mike . . . do you get compression artifacts from using DVD media?

[JCo872]

Jeff,

I see the ZR850 for $300, and I read the review of it @ cnet.com. Most of the cons by other users don’t seem to apply to my tennis needs:

- Sub par in low light – I’ll be shooting in daylight
- Useless video light – I won’t be using it
- Unsteady at full zoom – I won’t use full zoom, or I’ll use a tripod
- No analog video in – I won’t need it
- Internal mic picks up tape-drive sound – When I need good sound I’ll use an external mic

A few questions:

- How many frames per second is it capable of?
- Is the USB (2.0?) port for stills only, or can you transfer video through it?
- 1/2000th of a second . . . really?
- What video resolutions: 1280 x 720 @ 16/9? 640 x 480 @ 4/3?
- What makes the DVD versions, like the DC230, less short-clip friendly?
- What are the best tapes to use? Where do you get them?

Also, what video software do you use? How do you get your click-through video clips?

Thanks,

MG

Mike . . . do you get compression artifacts from using DVD media?


It's capable of 60fps. Yes 1/2000. Another poster said that his consumer level camera can go up to 1/10000!

USB is only for stills. Video is firewire only.

All the mini-dv tapes are the same quality as far as I'm aware.

I've never used DVD on a camera, so I was just guessing. I like being able to rewind or fast forward to any part of the tape and pull off small pieces. I'm curious what software Mike uses to edit the video.

I use Windows Movie Maker to pull off the video from the camera.

[onehandbh]

The best mini-DV tapes are by Sony.
I was usually a digital still camera (Sony) that had
an video record mode with 640x480 and 30fps. Wasn't
great, but not bad for the price (under $300).

Canon XL2 < Panasonic HVX200 < Varicam < Panavision

[Mike Cottrill]

Mike / Jeff,

What video editing programs do you use?

Will
The software I use is all freeware or what came with the camera.
If I use the camera to download clips I use the Sony supplied software that in my opinion is good for nothing except download in clips or the rare case to upload clips to the camera’s mini DVD.

List of freeware I use:
DVD Shrink
VirtualDub-MPEG2
XviD MPEG-4 Codec
FixVTS


DVD Shrink – Best software I have tried for editing and making DVD VOB images. It integrates with Nero to burn DVDs. I don’t use this much for tennis clips. Very fast video editor.

I use VirtualDub-MPEG2 to edit the mpeg clips downloaded from the camera. I will use VirtualDub to de-interlace the video to either 60fps or 240fps using AVS scripts that call AviSynth plug-ins (Smooth Deinterlacer). This process will create the clip to AVI format not compressed (Files can be very large). This process is so much faster than using mpeg file editors. I use XviD MPEG-4 Codec to do any compression. The only problem with this Codec is if you share the clip they must download this free codec to view the clip. There is also a free plug in to view the clip with QuickTime. I can get pretty good compression without to much video degradation with this codec.

In the rare case (has happened twice so far) that the mini DVD has a bad sector and DVD Shrink can not read the VOB, I use the FixVTS. In both cases, I have been able to read the video once this program has run on the bad sector on the mini DVD.

Here is a snap of a VirtualDub in action:
http://65.220.79.190/tennis/images/RoddickImpact.jpg

[Mike Cottrill]

Mike . . . do you get compression artifacts from using DVD media?

MG,
Wow, that may open a can of warms. Are you referring to the bit rate ~9Mbits/s for miniDVD versus ~25Mbits/s for MiniDV? I’m no expert but I will try and explain what I know and what I have observed. Let me know if I’m wrong :)

Anyway, some/most say editing DV is easier than MPEG, but that all depends on what type of editing you are trying to accomplish and what software used. When editing video from non types of video not being used for analysis I do not notice any degradation but that not to say there is not some. I do all that with the VOB. Adobe and some other software I have looked at works with MPEG and then convert it back VOB for burning to DVD. That is so slow it is a total waste of time and I’m sure that adds more degradation. We are talking hours and hours to make a VOB to be burned to a DVD versus minutes using DVD Shrink. I have compared the MiniDVD to a DVD made with DVD Shrink (no added compression to reduce size) and I can not tell the difference on my computer screen. Also, when working with DVD Shrink the Dolby surround sound stays intact. However I’m only deleting frames not desired in the final product. To sum it up, when combining miniDVDs to a DVD using DVD Shrink, I do not notice any degradation.

The techies will debate the quality degradation do to the compression the camera uses to get the video on the miniDVD (MPEG2) versus “higher quality” of the DV format. Editing video or photo in the rawest format is going to provide better results.

It comes down to what you need and how you are going to use the recorder. It is a mater of tradeoffs against the features you would like to have.
Hope this helps
Oh, miniDVD corders I have seen use USB and the miniDV use firewire that is much faster.
Mike

[Mike Cottrill]

I use Windows Movie Maker to pull off the video from the camera.

Jeff, what format is the video saved as when you use Windows Movie Maker to download the video?

[SalvadorVeiga]

Hello guys... I have a Panasonic MiniDV NV-GS 1 and from the specifications stated on the site here they are :

Specifications:

* Image Sensor: 1/4 inch CCD (800k pixels, Total) (Still Picture: 400k, Effective)
* F Value: F1.8 (WIDE)/F2.5(TELE)
* Optical Zoom: 10x Variable Speed Zoom
* Focal Length: 31.5 - 31.5mm
* Filter Diameter: 30.5mm
* Minimum Illumination: 1 Lux (Low Light)
* Focus: Digital AI AF / Manual (w/Dial)
* High Speed Shutter: 1/100, 125, 180, 250, 350, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 1/2000, 3000, 4000, 8000
* Programme AE: Sports/ Portrait/ Low Light/ Spot Light/ Surf and Snow


so to the slow motion guys as Jeff or anyone else who knows, is this camera capable of recording slow motion videos ? thanks

[JCo872]

Hello guys... I have a Panasonic MiniDV NV-GS 1 and from the specifications stated on the site here they are :

Specifications:

* Image Sensor: 1/4 inch CCD (800k pixels, Total) (Still Picture: 400k, Effective)
* F Value: F1.8 (WIDE)/F2.5(TELE)
* Optical Zoom: 10x Variable Speed Zoom
* Focal Length: 31.5 - 31.5mm
* Filter Diameter: 30.5mm
* Minimum Illumination: 1 Lux (Low Light)
* Focus: Digital AI AF / Manual (w/Dial)
* High Speed Shutter: 1/100, 125, 180, 250, 350, 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 1/2000, 3000, 4000, 8000
* Programme AE: Sports/ Portrait/ Low Light/ Spot Light/ Surf and Snow


so to the slow motion guys as Jeff or anyone else who knows, is this camera capable of recording slow motion videos ? thanks

Looks awesome! Yes that will do the trick!

Set the shutter to 1/2000 and you're good to go.

[JCo872]

Jeff, what format is the video saved as when you use Windows Movie Maker to download the video?

It saves the video in some native dv format. There is no compression. It's an avi file though.

[SalvadorVeiga]

Looks awesome! Yes that will do the trick!

Set the shutter to 1/2000 and you're good to go.

thanks for the brief response and sorry for the PM... didn't know you were online... whats the difference betweent 1/2000 and the "4000 and 8000" ones ? are those modes even slower than the 1/2000 ? Thanks for the answer now i'm so eager to shoot some videos... If only I could find the charger... I've been looking for it for the past 4 days no luck at all...

thanks for the clarification jeff

[JCo872]

thanks for the brief response and sorry for the PM... didn't know you were online... whats the difference betweent 1/2000 and the "4000 and 8000" ones ? are those modes even slower than the 1/2000 ? Thanks for the answer now i'm so eager to shoot some videos... If only I could find the charger... I've been looking for it for the past 4 days no luck at all...

thanks for the clarification jeff

The shutter speed is different than the frame rate. You aren't capturing more frames with a high shutter speed . The lowest setting will capture the same number of frames as the highest setting. What the shutter speed does is it elimates blurring and "ghosting" that occurs when filming fast motions.

I film everything at 1/2000 shutter speed and it completely eliminates blurriness. I don't think anything faster than 1/2000 will do anything for you. A good test would be to film at different shutter speeds and see how it affects the quality of the video.

Good luck!

[SalvadorVeiga]

thanks jeff... so the videos on your website are 1/2000 so that's way more than enough for me... since i just want to take a look at my mechanics... can't wait to hit the courts... thanks

Best ,

Salvador

[paraeljuego]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kd8rh1CgZiE

What kind of camera is needed to capture something like this. And also, what camera is good for a college tennis video? (recruiting) Nothing expensive please :)

[ipodtennispro]

Dear friends of the Slow Motion Society (John, Jeff, etc. . . . and anyone else), what video camera do you use, what does it cost, what is it capable of, and, for stroke analysis purposes, do you know of a more moderately priced slow-motion camera of “decent” quality?

MG

MG

I think it depends on what your intentions are with using slow motion. If you're getting into the high tech analysis of how long the ball stays on the string bed you are gong to have to pay big bucks for a high def slow motion camera.

Here is some food for thought. I have never filmed in slow motion, however, I use slow motion software programs; iMovie (Dartfish is another excellent program). I also think you need to have split screening capabilities. I only use a Mac so I don't know what programs there are for PC's. I like convenience and I use my Sony HD video camera on a daily basis, however, to get quick feedback to my students I prefer to use a Digital camera and then I set the camera to video and then shoot a quicktime (mpeg4) video file. I don't have to deal with the mini-dv tape and converting it. This can be done on the spot, on the court, with a lap top. Then, you can pull up your library of quicktime clips of your favorite pro players (college or high school) and make comparisons, corrections. For producing better quality movies I use footage from the video camera and not the digital camera.

Hope this helps

[Mountain Ghost]

I’ve been playing wannabe movie maker since late July, when I got a Canon ZR850, as Jeff @ hi-tech suggested, and for $300 it’s an amazing piece of equipment. So far I’m just filling up tapes shooting any and everything of interest to learn about the camera and shooting video in general.

I’d love to know how Jeff de-interlaces his 30i and makes his click-through video clips . . . but I would totally understand if he considers that to be “proprietary” information.

I can already see the potential benefit of having a hard-disc camcorder (as opposed to my mini-DV) . . . for super-fast locate and transfer. But for a first camcorder, I’m VERY happy I got what I did. The 1/2000 shutter speed is crystal clear on fast-moving objects (like racquet heads and tennis balls).

Ipod . . .

The ZR850 also records mpeg clips to memory card, but only at 320x240 and 15fps, so I haven’t even tried it, since I’m usually not a fan of low resolution stuff. But I do like the still camera video idea for quick, on-the-spot sharing. I’ll have to test it out. Thanks.

MG

[cliff]

I use the Sony handycam DCR-PC330E
it is fantastic for high speed action. I have also bought an extended life battery which is invaluable.

I use MotionExpert video analysis software (official software of the PTR) which is awesome for spilt screen analysis etc and far more cost efficient than dartfish

Make sure you use a mini dv cam corder when using video analysis software because they transfer footage with a fire wire in AVI format. This format is much better quality than mpeg 2 format.

Check out the software at www.motionexpert.com

[ubel]

Can you guys show us some sample of videos, like a few forehands/serves using the different cameras? Would mean give us a good impression of what to expect if we were, ahem, thinking about purchasing a camera :o

[Mike Cottrill]

Can you guys show us some sample of videos, like a few forehands/serves using the different cameras? Would mean give us a good impression of what to expect if we were, ahem, thinking about purchasing a camera :o

Stay tuned. Working something for you guys

[wihamilton]

There are a number of cameras out there in the sub-300 range that are just fine for tennis video. The two keys to quality tennis video that are often overlooked are 1) framing the shot and 2) configuring the camera. You should frame the subject (person hitting) so you see everything you need to see and nothing more. You don't want a ton of head room, etc. A cheap tripod can go a long way. Also, the camera needs to be calibrated for lighting conditions, among other things. Generally speaking, you want to shoot on a bright day w/a fast shutter speed so there is no motion blur.

Addendum: Also don't wear white if you can avoid it. It generally doesn't look good on camera.

[Mike Cottrill]

Addendum: Also don't wear white if you can avoid it. It generally doesn't look good on camera.

Are you joking? Some of the best shots are white on grass IMO.

Todd does not look good in white?

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h104/GreenTennis/StanfordTurney/Players/74170472.jpg

[wihamilton]

That looks like it was either shot at night or indoors (Todd has multiple shadows from the overhead lights). During the day, b/c it is so bright, white tends to get really washed out (especially w/ cheaper cameras). Even professional cameras at tour events sometimes have a tough time handling it.

[Mike Cottrill]

That looks like it was either shot at night or indoors (Todd has multiple shadows from the overhead lights). During the day, b/c it is so bright, white tends to get really washed out (especially w/ cheaper cameras). Even professional cameras at tour events sometimes have a tough time handling it.

Indoors.

back to your issue,
Isn’t the main reason that happens is because bright sun on court and surroundings and camera meters on court washing out white? Make spot meter and lock meter and reduce the aperture and what happens? Cheap camera can't do?

Yes, I have seen footage from outer courts at big events, and it sometimes is washed out. Most of the time, big shadows on court. I figured it was user error not camera??

[wihamilton]

Well even TV cameras sometimes have trouble handling tennis whites. But you are right -- user error is a huge part of the problem, which is why I generally recommend people don't wear white when filming themselves. It takes a very tricky variable out of the equation.

[SFrazeur]

I would really like to get a camera myself for teaching. However, the only problem is that I teach a lot indoors, and in the evenings. Does anyone have a suggestion for one with a shutter speed of 1/2000 that will be comparable in well lighted indoor courts and outdoors in the evenings, with the lights on? if there is such a video camera that is.

-SF

[Hewitt Aussie]

is the canon R series digital, or do you have to put a miniDV in it?

[waves2ya]

Thks for reviving this thread; have any of you 'sports' photog's used the hard drive cameras yet (or have a recommendation...)?

I'm looking to spend max $600 or so; that canon mentioned earlier (mini dv) is only $190 now...!

[SFrazeur]

is the canon R series digital, or do you have to put a miniDV in it?

If you mean the ZR series such as ZR850, ZR900, ZR950, then yes, they are miniDV.

-SF

[matchpoints]

I actually just got the zr850 myself and one thing i use alot is the remote control which many cameras dont come with nowadays for whatever reason. Anyone know of a software that I can capture video from the camcorder directly onto my laptop using firewire skipping the mini DV process....I've got a small enough laptop to carry with me to the courts.

[NotAtTheNet]

Hmm, I'm a technophile but for my needs, all i want is simplicity. I use a sanyo Xacti HD1A (http://www.steves-digicams.com/2006_reviews/hd1a.html). Its an HD handheld camcorder, records straight to an SD card for easy transfer to my PC. It can go 720i HD quality which is nice, or high framerate 60 fps in standard def 480i. Not the super highest quality like my canon xl1s but you know it fits in my bag, i can pop it into my tripod and no wearing out my heads of my miniDV rack or camera.

[ramseszerg]

I'm going to revive this thread again.

1. Question for Jeff, if you see this: are you still using the ZR-850? What are you shooting your 300fps high speed videos with?

2. For everyone: do all consumer camcorders have 60i fps? Doesn't this really mean 30 fps? When viewing frame by frame with Quicktime, will I have 60 blurry frames or 30 frames?

[ramseszerg]

Also, would a shutter speed of 1/1250 still produce a blurry video?

[deluxe]

Casio Exilim EX-FH20

[ramseszerg]

I'm so confused, why are frame rates not listed under camcorder specs? Am I to assume all camcorders have 30p as well as 60i modes?

[JCo872]

I'm going to revive this thread again.

1. Question for Jeff, if you see this: are you still using the ZR-850? What are you shooting your 300fps high speed videos with?

2. For everyone: do all consumer camcorders have 60i fps? Doesn't this really mean 30 fps? When viewing frame by frame with Quicktime, will I have 60 blurry frames or 30 frames?

Still using the ZR-850. The 300fps is shot with the Casio Exilim.

All the camcorders I have used shoot at 60i. If you play back your raw video in Windows Media Player and go frame by frame through the video, you will see that it is playing back 60fps deinterlaced.

[ramseszerg]

Thanks so much for replying! Which exilim are you using? I am considering the ex-fs10.

Edit: I realized the ex-f1 is the only one with 300fps.

[ramseszerg]

Can I use a tripod with compact digital cameras such as the ex-fs10 or ex-fc100?

[deluxe]

FH20 = 1000fps

[paulmaben]

anyone have any advice about some of the new hard drive video cameras...i.e. JVC everio. I'd like to get a camera for the family and something that would work with tennis

[larry10s]

anyone have a flip video camera ? comments please. thanks