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2shots
08-15-2007, 11:40 PM
Just to state the obvious, If FED wins Cincy, there will only be 10 points between him and Nadal in the ATP Race. Very exciting times

roysid
08-16-2007, 01:20 AM
Not exactly, Nadal will get 1 point for his 2nd round loss. 1st round was a bye. So he will have 982 points. If Fed wins he will be at 971.

And in ATP ranking points, Nadal will be at 5485 next week. Fed will be at 7505 if he wins.

2shots
08-16-2007, 01:23 AM
thanks for the valid input Roysid. So the Gap in the Rankings proper increases again....

I was not aware of the one point for the race

Zaragoza
08-16-2007, 03:45 AM
The Race wasnīt important 1 month ago, why should it be now?

2shots
08-16-2007, 04:00 AM
I don't believe I ever said the race was not important, I think it is good motivation for the players to see who really was the best player over a calender year.....you must be a NADAL fan....Please note I support tennis

Zaragoza
08-16-2007, 04:06 AM
I don't believe I ever said the race was not important, I think it is good motivation for the players to see who really was the best player over a calender year.....you must be a NADAL fan....Please note I support tennis

Yes, I am a Nadal fan and I support tennis too, believe it or not, itīs possible.
And talking about the importance of the Race I wasnīt referring to you in particular but the general consensus on this board.

Fedexeon
08-16-2007, 04:07 AM
The race is much more important for players ranked between 5 to 10... In September to October, you will see top players trying to qualify for the Masters Cup... thats when the race points matter.

caulcano
08-16-2007, 04:20 AM
The Race wasnīt important 1 month ago, why should it be now?

As the end of the year draws closer, the Race becomes more & more important.

Zaragoza
08-16-2007, 04:37 AM
As the end of the year draws closer, the Race becomes more & more important.


As Fedexeon said, the Race is only important for a few players that try to qualify for the Masters Cup in the last month of the season.
As for the rest of the tour, the Entry System is the only important ranking for seedings, direct acceptance...(real ranking) and at the end of the year the Race ranking will be basically the same than the Entry system ranking, thatīs why the Entry system will always prevail, also at the end of the season.

2shots
08-16-2007, 05:14 AM
Yes, I am a Nadal fan and I support tennis too, believe it or not, itīs possible.
And talking about the importance of the Race I wasnīt referring to you in particular but the general consensus on this board.

I was not taking a shot at you in anyway Zaragosa...The reason I started this thread, was because the race has the potential to get real close now, and that jsut adds to the excitement of what has already been a great season

tennis_hand
08-16-2007, 07:19 AM
the race points also means who is the year-end no 1.
u can't say it is not important at all.

bluescreen
08-16-2007, 07:22 AM
yeah, i think the race is important for all the top 10 players. if federer loses the race to nadal, he wouldnt be seeded #1 at the masters cup and he wouldnt be year end #1, which he was the last couple years. i believe they all consider it important, hence roger's attempting to actually win cincy this year.

Tennis_Goodness
08-16-2007, 07:23 AM
Federer will still end the year as Number 1 and right now has had a better year, he has two slams compared to Nadal's one. That means MUCH more then a couple masters!

bluescreen
08-16-2007, 07:30 AM
and with nadal's recent injury, it doesnt look likely that the spaniard is gonna gain a lot more head way this year.

PROTENNIS63
08-16-2007, 08:16 AM
fed has a lot more to defend the rest of the year than nadal

us open
shanghai

federerfanatic
08-16-2007, 08:43 AM
Any other minor events Nadal played and won the rest of the year he would have points dropped off for as well. He is currently carrying 11 points from Queens, and 15 points from Dubai and Chennai. So even if he played 2 smaller events after the U.S Open and won both, he would be losing 26 points in addition to the points he gains. Federer actually has room for 4 smaller tournaments to gain points, although I doubt he plays 4.

If Federer wins Cincinnati there is zero chance, barring an injury for Federer, that Nadal ends the year #1. He certainly wont outperform him on the surfaces we are now on.

bluescreen
08-16-2007, 10:41 AM
fed has a lot more to defend the rest of the year than nadal

us open
shanghai

this doesnt matter in the points RACE. the race only counts how many points a player gets in a year, not what they have to defend, etc. they can only gain points, not lose them, regardless of how they did last year.

tennis_hand
08-16-2007, 06:50 PM
cincinnatti is for Fed to take after all of the rest of top 5 crashed out except Davydenko.

phoony
08-16-2007, 07:39 PM
Fed is on the way to claim his 50th ATP title. Cincy should be him if he could produce some prolific and aggresive styles of tennis.

Alexandros
08-16-2007, 09:18 PM
Fed is on the way to claim his 50th ATP title. Cincy should be him if he could produce some prolific and aggresive styles of tennis.

What is 'prolific' tennis??

phoony
08-16-2007, 10:29 PM
What is 'prolific' tennis??

i mean highly productive.........in terms of skill and technique of play

Silent
08-16-2007, 11:38 PM
Points are awarded at the Master's Cup also.

http://www.atptennis.com/en/players/information/rankfaq.asp#

rwn
08-17-2007, 12:23 AM
Federer will have to play a lot better in the next rounds if he wants to win.

tennis_hand
08-17-2007, 05:18 AM
Federer will have to play a lot better in the next rounds if he wants to win.

it is federer. he usually slumps a while and gets to his best form in important matches.

ninman
08-17-2007, 06:01 AM
I was looking at who is left in the draw at cinncinati and in the head to heads the only player who has defeated Federer before is Hewitt and that was in 2003, currently Federer has won his last ten matches against him the actual head to head's are 1-0, 4-0, 6-0, 7-0, 7-0, 9-0, 12-7. So it's extremely unlikely that he won't win the event, considering he owns basically every other player in the draw.

TheModernEra
08-17-2007, 06:17 AM
If Fed wins Cincy, he will clearly be the greastest of all time, bar none, but if he loses, then he will have been just another flash in the pan.....that's what I have learned in my short time in this forum.....

bluescreen
08-17-2007, 06:21 AM
i really hope thats sarcasm.

johnny ballgame
08-17-2007, 06:41 AM
If Federer wins Cincinnati there is zero chance, barring an injury for Federer, that Nadal ends the year #1. He certainly wont outperform him on the surfaces we are now on.

That's pretty bold. Nadal has won Madrid Masters before, he can win it again. If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.

By the time Masters Cup begins, I think there will be scenarios for both Nadal and Fed to finish #1. Similar to 2000, when there were scenarios for both Guga and Safin. Should be the most entertaining Masters Cup in years.

I need to read up on how they select the RR groups in Masters Cup. Is there a chance that Fed and Djokovic will be in the same group??

tennis_hand
08-17-2007, 06:44 AM
I was looking at who is left in the draw at cinncinati and in the head to heads the only player who has defeated Federer before is Hewitt and that was in 2003, currently Federer has won his last ten matches against him the actual head to head's are 1-0, 4-0, 6-0, 7-0, 7-0, 9-0, 12-7. So it's extremely unlikely that he won't win the event, considering he owns basically every other player in the draw.

I hope he meets Hewitt again. Just to give Hewitt a chance and see them play again, not that Hewitt has a chance.

ninman
08-17-2007, 06:56 AM
I think if Federer wins the tournament he'll go up to 7605 RP, Nadal will be on 5515, that's a difference of 2090 points, which means assuming that Federer defends all of his points from the rest of the year, he'll finish on 6855 (I think), that will be impossible for Nadal to make up with the rest of the tournies left, Nadal could however finish on 6260 (I think), that is if he was RU in both the US Open and Madrid. Which means that if Federer was to say go out in the RR stage of Shanghai he would gain 100 points so start next year with 6955 and if Nadal wins shanghai he'll have 7010 and thus become the number 1 at the start of 2008.

However I believe that Scenario is extremely unlikely.

johnny ballgame
08-17-2007, 07:05 AM
I think if Federer wins the tournament he'll go up to 7605 RP, Nadal will be on 5515, that's a difference of 2090 points, which means assuming that Federer defends all of his points from the rest of the year, he'll finish on 6855 (I think), that will be impossible for Nadal to make up with the rest of the tournies left...

Ninman, you're looking at the wrong thing (the entry ranking). Focus on the ATP Race - it's all that matters for year-end #1.

ninman
08-17-2007, 07:38 AM
Well just divide the numbers I gave you by 5 and you'll get the year end ranking points.

GRANITECHIEF
08-17-2007, 07:43 AM
Won't you guys ever get it! Year end #1 is decided by the Entry Rankings. How do you think Sampras got 6 year end #1's before the ATP Race started. The only thing the race is for is qualifying for the masters cup.

federerfanatic
08-17-2007, 08:21 AM
That's pretty bold. Nadal has won Madrid Masters before, he can win it again.

He won it with Federer out of the event, which he wont be this year, and a lack of good fast court opponents he had to play, except for Ljubicic in the final and even he dominated Nadal the first half of the match and choked big time. So no, Nadal definitely will not win Madrid, especialy now that Djokovic is confident in beating him on a hard court type surface too. Particularly since he is already running of steam and starting to play injured, as he often does this time of the year, to boot.

If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.

There is almost no way Federer loses the U.S Open. Federer played like crap against Djokovic in the Rogers Cup final, and still should have won 7-5, 6-2. If they play at the U.S Open Federer will win in 3 sets, 4 sets max. I will be surprised if Nadal even gets past the quarters. Wimbledon is a much better event for him then the U.S Open now, and he wasnt physically beat down at Wimbledon.

By the time Masters Cup begins, I think there will be scenarios for both Nadal and Fed to finish #1. Similar to 2000, when there were scenarios for both Guga and Safin. Should be the most entertaining Masters Cup in years.

I wouldnt be surprised if Federer already has it in the bag by then.

I need to read up on how they select the RR groups in Masters Cup. Is there a chance that Fed and Djokovic will be in the same group??

I can already tell you are one of those who delude yourselves into thinking Djokovic is now the new Federer nemisis since playing his best he managed to scrape out a win vs Federer playing like crap, in a match he was still lucky not to lose 7-5, 6-2. Keep dreaming. Even in the very unlikely even Federer lost a round robin match to Djokovic (still more chance of that then Djokovic beating him at the U.S Open since 2-of-3 and RR format favor the weaker player as we saw from Federer-Roddick RR match last year), it would mean little since 2 advance out of each group anyway, and if Federer and Nadal played in the semis, Federer would have the clear edge on that type of surface anyway. His easiest ever win over Nadal was last year in the Masters semis.

johnny ballgame
08-17-2007, 09:51 AM
So no, Nadal definitely will not win Madrid...

There is almost no way Federer loses the U.S Open...

I can already tell you are one of those who delude yourselves into thinking Djokovic is now the new Federer nemisis...

I still say the first two statements above are quite bold.

The third statement is simply not true. I do not think Djokovic is Fed's nemisis. But he is clearly now the third best player in the world. He has proven that he can beat Fed and Nadal. He has a greater chance of beating Fed or Nadal than anyone else. So it's at least interesting to see what half of the draw he is in (or RR group) going forward.

federerfanatic
08-17-2007, 09:59 AM
I still say the first two statements above are quite bold.

The third statement is simply not true. I do not think Djokovic is Fed's nemisis. But he is clearly now the third best player in the world. He has proven that he can beat Fed and Nadal. He has a greater chance of beating Fed or Nadal than anyone else. So it's at least interesting to see what half of the draw he is in (or RR group) going forward.

Djokovic has a much better chance of beating Nadal then he does of beating Federer, just as say Canas has a much better chance of beating Federer then of beating Nadal. So whether Djokovic is in Nadal's half or not (except at the French) is much more significance then whether he is on Fed's half or not.

Djokovic in red hot form did beat a extremely subpar Federer 7-6 in the 3rd in a best 2-of-3 match, but was lucky not to lose the match to an extremely subpar Federer 7-5, 6-2, considering the last game before the tiebreak in the first set. I am a long way from thinking he has a real chance to beat Federer in a major.

johnny ballgame
08-17-2007, 10:57 AM
So whether Djokovic is in Nadal's half or not (except at the French) is much more significance then whether he is on Fed's half or not.


Umm, allow me to translate your statement: it's significant which half of the draw that Djokovic is in.

I agree.

DashaandSafin
08-17-2007, 11:12 AM
The race does matter but try to look at it after the USO. Of course Nadal is going to be ahead now, the clay court season just ended.

Zaragoza
08-18-2007, 07:07 AM
The race does matter but try to look at it after the USO. Of course Nadal is going to be ahead now, the clay court season just ended.

After 3 majors and 7 Masters Series Nadal will be no. 1 on the Race, itīs not all about the clay.

Silent
08-18-2007, 07:17 AM
Won't you guys ever get it! Year end #1 is decided by the Entry Rankings. How do you think Sampras got 6 year end #1's before the ATP Race started. The only thing the race is for is qualifying for the masters cup.

No, that's not true.

The world ranking is based on the previous 52 weeks, and the race is based on the current year.

At the end of the current year (after the Masters Cup), both rankings will be based on the previous 52 weeks, therefore they will match, and therefore the player who finished first in the race will be the world no.1 player.

The race determines who the year end no.1 player is.

The tennis guy
08-18-2007, 07:28 AM
After 3 majors and 7 Masters Series Nadal will be no. 1 on the Race, itīs not all about the clay.

I guess that's only comfort you can get. Nadal is No. 1 on the race points nobody cares. If he can get to No. 1 in entry points, at least history will remember as former No. 1.

Zaragoza
08-19-2007, 04:49 AM
I guess that's only comfort you can get. Nadal is No. 1 on the race points nobody cares. If he can get to No. 1 in entry points, at least history will remember as former No. 1.

Yes, I always said that the Entry system is the only important ranking. I meant that it´s not just the clay season what makes him being no. 1 in the Race right now, on August. Anyway I think it´s more important to win majors than being no. 1 at some point of your career. Rios,Moya,Ferrero and other players were no. 1 but I don´t think anyone would consider them greater than Nadal.

lambielspins
08-19-2007, 07:24 AM
If Federer wins todays final, Nadal is only ahead by 11 points in the race. He has almost no chance to hold on given Federer's vast superiority the remaining part of the year.

However he also isnt really ahead at alll. Nadal is currently counting points from 5 smaller tournaments, even if he wins another small tournament he has points coming off with that. Federer has only 1 smaller tournament on record now and can add tournament points without any coming off. So in reality Nadal is not ahead at all.

daddy
08-19-2007, 07:31 AM
Yes, I always said that the Entry system is the only important ranking. I meant that itīs not just the clay season what makes him being no. 1 in the Race right now, on August. Anyway I think itīs more important to win majors than being no. 1 at some point of your career. Rios,Moya,Ferrero and other players were no. 1 but I donīt think anyone would consider them greater than Nadal.

No its not about the clay when you get to finals of hard courts, do okay on hard slams and final a wimbledon etc. But he is a clay courter, he will slip by Djokovic or someone like him if he does not improve fast, because they are well suited for all courts. So he is undoubtfully the best clay player tennis has seen since borg but hes not there yes. Misses 5 wimbledon titels for a legendary status or at least 5 grand slams other than FO. Whos to say he will not get there ? But the way things look now, the hard court hole is beggining to fill up, too many crocodiles out there.

West Coast Ace
08-19-2007, 09:25 AM
If Federer wins Cincinnati there is zero chance, barring an injury for Federer, that Nadal ends the year #1. He certainly wont outperform him on the surfaces we are now on.Amen. Fed loves this time of the year - really enjoys surfaces and the cities. Easy to see him getting on a winning streak to close out the calendar year.

If Djokovic and Fed are in the same half of the US Open draw, that thing is wide open.Oh, brother! Djokovic wins once (two tiebreakers) at a 2 out of 3 event and now Fed is only even money (I assume by 'wide open' that's what you mean). Maybe Fed will invite Djokovic to Dubai and he can see his 11 SLAM TROPHIES!

Should be the most entertaining Masters Cup in years. I've gone to Shanghai each of the last 2 yrs - trust me, it's very entertaining. They all want to win - it's big money and a great way to end the yr and prep for Australia. I expect more of the same this year, regardless of the makeup of the 8 and how the 2 groups are formed.

I believe the groups are such that: 1 and 2 are split, 3 and 4 are split, ... - so any permutation - e.g. 1357, 1457, etc... - are possible.

No, that's not true.You're wasting your time explaining it - there are those 'special' people on this board who will never get it.

lambielspins
08-19-2007, 02:42 PM
No its not about the clay when you get to finals of hard courts, do okay on hard slams and final a wimbledon etc. But he is a clay courter, he will slip by Djokovic or someone like him if he does not improve fast, because they are well suited for all courts. So he is undoubtfully the best clay player tennis has seen since borg but hes not there yes. Misses 5 wimbledon titels for a legendary status or at least 5 grand slams other than FO. Whos to say he will not get there ? But the way things look now, the hard court hole is beggining to fill up, too many crocodiles out there.

We will probably see in the next year or two what Nadal's chances are to win slams outside the French Open. If he hasnt won one by after the Australian in 2009 or so, there is a good chance he never will.

navratilovafan
08-19-2007, 05:55 PM
He was 135 points behind Nadal after Stuttgart. If he won today he is 11 points back, if he lost he is 41. Either way he is closing in and about to pass, just as most people who understand this game, and were realistic, called to happen. Nadal was never going to hold off Federer's charge at this point of the year. Nadal has played more tournaments so also has an advantage in the current points as well.

roysid
08-20-2007, 12:51 AM
Not exactly, Nadal will get 1 point for his 2nd round loss. 1st round was a bye. So he will have 982 points. If Fed wins he will be at 971.

And in ATP ranking points, Nadal will be at 5485 next week. Fed will be at 7505 if he wins.
Well Fed is at 7605 and Nadal at 5485. In ATP race they are at 971 and 982 respectively.

Fed is better placed than Nadal for the remaining hard court tourneys. So it shouldn't be difficult for him to defend #1.

tennis_hand
08-20-2007, 02:49 AM
Easy Fed. Nadal gets more points in clay season, and it is now Fed's turn to get more points and claim back the No 1 spot in the ATP race.