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View Full Version : Federer's 2nd serve


drgnpride
08-18-2007, 12:47 PM
was bouncing over hewitt's head, hewitt should have tried overhead, that's quite the kicker.

stormholloway
08-18-2007, 01:19 PM
Federer's serve is the most underrated on tour in my opinion. His 1st serve pct. was like 80% in the second set.

It's very accurate, disguised, and consistent.

federerGOAT
08-18-2007, 02:23 PM
I've always said that Fed has a good serve, just as good or better than Sampras.

natasha_nana
08-18-2007, 03:38 PM
Yeah I agree with all of the above...he can serve pretty fast too, which often goes unnoticed just because it isn't Roddick or Karlovic fast.

And best of all, his body position is the same for all serves, so very unreadable in general.

tennispro11
08-18-2007, 03:58 PM
Same with his ball toss. He can hit all his serves with the same ball toss.

TennezSport
08-18-2007, 04:05 PM
If you look at the numbers, Feds first serve is alctall faster than Petes first serves on average. However, Petes second serves had more spin than Feds, but he is currently working on that issue. Fed servce is indeed underrated.

TennezSport :cool:

dave333
08-18-2007, 04:19 PM
His serve is nice, but has had some pretty terrible numbers, like during the FO.

rod99
08-18-2007, 05:04 PM
I've always said that Fed has a good serve, just as good or better than Sampras.

that's laughable and i don't even like sampras

Fedexeon
08-18-2007, 05:15 PM
His serve has been great in US Open series. Saved him in few occasions this year, like in Wimbledon against Nadal. Many aces from him lately.

stormholloway
08-18-2007, 05:18 PM
If you look at the numbers, Feds first serve is alctall faster than Petes first serves on average. However, Petes second serves had more spin than Feds, but he is currently working on that issue. Fed servce is indeed underrated.

TennezSport :cool:

I've seen the Sampras/Federer Wimbledon match many times and Federer doesn't even come close to Pete's pace. Sure, his serve has improved and he uses a higher powered racquet, but I think the radar guns are different these days.

Ambivalent
08-18-2007, 05:27 PM
You guys are forgetting that when Pete's down 0-40 on his serve, theres about a 25% chance he'll ace you five times in a row.

Andres
08-18-2007, 05:36 PM
Like this? http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FLLL1fND0lc :D

Sorry, it's not Sampras, but the point still stands :D

Mad iX
08-18-2007, 08:51 PM
Fed's serve is pretty good, but imo Sampras' was better, especially in the crunch.

Jonny S&V
08-18-2007, 08:55 PM
I've seen the Sampras/Federer Wimbledon match many times and Federer doesn't even come close to Pete's pace. Sure, his serve has improved and he uses a higher powered racquet, but I think the radar guns are different these days.

I strongly agree. And, after seeing both serves in real life, it seems like Sampras' serve was a lot heavier. Heck, it went right through Rafter's strings. Like to see Fed do that.

Mike Bulgakov
08-18-2007, 09:04 PM
This sort of study should be repeated with current players and a large sample size for each player.


Even more than the groundstrokes, the serve is often described in terms of spin as being hit "flat" or with "topspin" or "slice". Our study shows that the only meaningful use of these terms is a relative one. There is no such thing as a "flat serve" in tennis. On the first serve, most players that we studied generated more spin than on either of their groundstrokes, and the second serve yielded the highest spin rates in the game.

The lowest average spin rates on the first serve were 1600-1700rpm. Michael Chang, for example, hit 7 first serves with an average speed of 112mph and and an average spin rate of 1677rpm. 8 of the 10 men studied averaged well spin of well over 2000rpm on their first serves.

Pete Sampras, known for having one of the best serves in pro tennis, hit 11 first serves with an average radar gun velocity of 120mph and and an average spin rate of 2699rpm, easily the highest combination of ball spin and ball speed tested.

Shot: Men's First Serve

Player:
No. of Serves:
Avg MPH:
RPM Range:
Avg RPM:

Marcelo Rios
2
92mph
3000-3333rpm
3167rpm

Jim Courier
6
108mph
2500-4054rpm
2842rpm

Todd Martin
7
98mph
1667-3947rpm
2798rpm

Tomas Muster
8
105mph
1667-4284rpm
2754rpm

Pete Sampras
11
120mph
2100-4260rpm
2699rpm

Petr Korda
7
101mph
1579-3750rpm
2688rpm

Andre Agassi
9
102mph
1200-4284rpm
2449rpm

Mark Philippousis
3
123mph
1765-2830rpm
2198rpm

Michael Chang
7
112mph
1000-3750rpm
1677rpm

Tim Henman
2
120mph
1429-1667rpm
1548rpm

The Combination of Speed and Spin

We determined from our ball speed study that on a serve hit at 120mph, it takes roughly 2/3's of a second for the ball to travel from the server's racket to the racket of the returner. This means that a typical Sampras serve turned over about 30 times in the fraction of a second it takes to travel across the length of the court!

Sampras's ability to generate both velocity and spin on his first serve may explain his ability to serve with such great consistency and effectiveness, particularly under pressure.

Petr Korda and Tomas Muster, for example, generated averaged roughly the same amount of spin as Sampras on their first serves, ie, 2600 to 2700rpm, but each averaged speeds of only slightly more than 100mph. In our data, Michael Chang's personal highest first serve velocity was 122mph, but the spin rate on this serve was only 1071rpm, well less than half of the spin Sampras achieved on serves of similar speed. Andre Agassi's fastest recorded serve was 121mph and this serve came the closest to flat of any serve studied spinning at less than 300rpms.

Spin on the Second Serve

The fastest spinning shot in pro tennis was the second serve. Average spin rates on the second serves among the men all exceeded even the average spin rate of Sergi Bruguera's forehand (3351rpm), ranging from a low of 3370rpm for Todd Martin to a high of 4650rpm for Andre Agassi.

Sampras's average second serve spin rate (4623rpm) was nearly identical to Agassi's. However, he achieved more than 10mph in additional second serve velocity, averaging 85mph, compared to Agassi's 74mph. As with his first serve, Sampras's ability to generate both spin and speed on the second serve is a probable key in understanding his overall serving effectiveness.

Shot: Men's Second Serve

Player:
No. of Serves:
Avg MPH:
RPM Range:
Avg RPM:

Andre Agassi
9
74mph
4054-4998rpm
4650rpm

Tim Henman
2
85mph
4284-4998rpm
4641rpm

Pete Sampras
4
85mph
3900-5357rpm
4623rpm

Tomas Muster
2
71mph
3750-4998rpm
4374rpm

Mark Philippousis
4
99mph
2830-4546rpm
4018rpm

Petr Korda
3
88mph
3750-4284rpm
4017rpm

Michael Chang
10
77mph
3125-4284rpm
3928rpm

Jim Courier
4
91mph
3571-4167rpm
3810rpm

Todd Martin
10
89mph
3000-4284rpm
3370rpm

tennispro11
08-18-2007, 09:06 PM
This sort of study should be repeated with current players and a large sample size for each player.


Even more than the groundstrokes, the serve is often described in terms of spin as being hit "flat" or with "topspin" or "slice". Our study shows that the only meaningful use of these terms is a relative one. There is no such thing as a "flat serve" in tennis. On the first serve, most players that we studied generated more spin than on either of their groundstrokes, and the second serve yielded the highest spin rates in the game.

The lowest average spin rates on the first serve were 1600-1700rpm. Michael Chang, for example, hit 7 first serves with an average speed of 112mph and and an average spin rate of 1677rpm. 8 of the 10 men studied averaged well spin of well over 2000rpm on their first serves.

Pete Sampras, known for having one of the best serves in pro tennis, hit 11 first serves with an average radar gun velocity of 120mph and and an average spin rate of 2699rpm, easily the highest combination of ball spin and ball speed tested.

Shot: Men's First Serve

Player:
No. of Serves:
Avg MPH:
RPM Range:
Avg RPM:

Marcelo Rios
2
92mph
3000-3333rpm
3167rpm

Jim Courier
6
108mph
2500-4054rpm
2842rpm

Todd Martin
7
98mph
1667-3947rpm
2798rpm

Tomas Muster
8
105mph
1667-4284rpm
2754rpm

Pete Sampras
11
120mph
2100-4260rpm
2699rpm

Petr Korda
7
101mph
1579-3750rpm
2688rpm

Andre Agassi
9
102mph
1200-4284rpm
2449rpm

Mark Philippousis
3
123mph
1765-2830rpm
2198rpm

Michael Chang
7
112mph
1000-3750rpm
1677rpm

Tim Henman
2
120mph
1429-1667rpm
1548rpm

The Combination of Speed and Spin

We determined from our ball speed study that on a serve hit at 120mph, it takes roughly 2/3's of a second for the ball to travel from the server's racket to the racket of the returner. This means that a typical Sampras serve turned over about 30 times in the fraction of a second it takes to travel across the length of the court!

Sampras's ability to generate both velocity and spin on his first serve may explain his ability to serve with such great consistency and effectiveness, particularly under pressure.

Petr Korda and Tomas Muster, for example, generated averaged roughly the same amount of spin as Sampras on their first serves, ie, 2600 to 2700rpm, but each averaged speeds of only slightly more than 100mph. In our data, Michael Chang's personal highest first serve velocity was 122mph, but the spin rate on this serve was only 1071rpm, well less than half of the spin Sampras achieved on serves of similar speed. Andre Agassi's fastest recorded serve was 121mph and this serve came the closest to flat of any serve studied spinning at less than 300rpms.

Spin on the Second Serve

The fastest spinning shot in pro tennis was the second serve. Average spin rates on the second serves among the men all exceeded even the average spin rate of Sergi Bruguera's forehand (3351rpm), ranging from a low of 3370rpm for Todd Martin to a high of 4650rpm for Andre Agassi.

Sampras's average second serve spin rate (4623rpm) was nearly identical to Agassi's. However, he achieved more than 10mph in additional second serve velocity, averaging 85mph, compared to Agassi's 74mph. As with his first serve, Sampras's ability to generate both spin and speed on the second serve is a probable key in understanding his overall serving effectiveness.

Shot: Men's Second Serve

Player:
No. of Serves:
Avg MPH:
RPM Range:
Avg RPM:

Andre Agassi
9
74mph
4054-4998rpm
4650rpm

Tim Henman
2
85mph
4284-4998rpm
4641rpm

Pete Sampras
4
85mph
3900-5357rpm
4623rpm

Tomas Muster
2
71mph
3750-4998rpm
4374rpm

Mark Philippousis
4
99mph
2830-4546rpm
4018rpm

Petr Korda
3
88mph
3750-4284rpm
4017rpm

Michael Chang
10
77mph
3125-4284rpm
3928rpm

Jim Courier
4
91mph
3571-4167rpm
3810rpm

Todd Martin
10
89mph
3000-4284rpm
3370rpm

You need to quote your sources. Where is this from? What date was it done? Who did the research?

David L
08-18-2007, 09:28 PM
You need to quote your sources. Where is this from? What date was it done? Who did the research?http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Project/usspin-07.html

tennispro11
08-18-2007, 09:45 PM
http://wings.avkids.com/Tennis/Project/usspin-07.html

Thank you very much. :)

rosenstar
08-18-2007, 09:51 PM
I've seen the Sampras/Federer Wimbledon match many times and Federer doesn't even come close to Pete's pace. Sure, his serve has improved and he uses a higher powered racquet, but I think the radar guns are different these days.

this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. THe radar guns are different? If anything they're more accurate.

as far as Fed's serve goes, I don't think it's the biggest, but it's definitely one of the best.

Defcon
08-18-2007, 11:00 PM
^ you're both saying the same thing - radar guns today and more accurate and thus different. Its a well known fact.

nBladed
08-18-2007, 11:06 PM
I was in person to see the Indian Wells final between Fed and Blake last year. I was about 9-10 rows back. I was amazed at his 2nd. It really hopped up over Blakes head and there were a couple of times that it stunned Blake as the ball hit the ground and popped way up in the air. He looked off guard. This doesn't come through on television.

In spite of that I feel Fed is playing really poorly this year, or at least not nearly as crisply.

Ambivalent
08-18-2007, 11:16 PM
Heck, it went right through Rafter's strings. Like to see Fed do that.

Yeah but wasn't that before poly stringing and stuff? Fed's serves are being hit by stronger strings with more stable patterns. Also, Fed's serves may not be going THROUGH strings, but they probably are breaking them. Finally, Sampras's serve going through Rafter's strings was a rare incidence - I watched the clip on youtube and it looked as if Rafter barely swung for it. Obviously, if you dont swing and the string snaps, itll go through. If you swing though, the resistance would actually push the ball forward at least SOME, resulting in just a plain broken string.

Still, Sampras>Fed in serves.

daddy
08-18-2007, 11:22 PM
ITs really not something you can compare that easily. Serve consist of too many different factors, and it also kind of depends who you play. If you have a high kick second serve agains a player whos not used to hit backhand so high, hes going to be pushed back and prolly lose a point. If you do that agains aggasi, hell slam it in the rise and make a winner of it. ITs a matter which needs more scientific aproach than I saw this and you saw that .. IMO