PDA

View Full Version : I can't play properly against worse players.


Dominik
08-23-2007, 04:30 PM
Okay, this is getting pretty frustrating lately.

When I play against people my level or better than myself, I'm crazy, I'm bouncing everywhere, getting everything, my footwork's near perfect, and my game is ridiculously good most of the time.

However, when I play someone I KNOW I can beat, it's like I adjust myself to their level. I end up getting so many easy shots out, when I try to get into good form and everything (bouncing, reminding myself not to be lazy even though they're not as good players, etc), I just can't find myself. It's like I'm only half there on the courts, and the other part of me is somewhere else (the part with all the skill of course).

I've come up with a few possible explanations,

1. I don't try as hard because I don't feel the need.
2. It's something to do with me not being able to take higher, slower shots properly and turn them into controlled aggression. Maybe I should ask my coach to half-lob a few shots to me and see if I can deal with them properly?

This happens over and over again, even against different people. I'll be amazing against someone good, and then I'll suck against a sub-par player.

Does this happen to anyone else? Any advice?

dave333
08-23-2007, 04:49 PM
Probably because you are playing lazy. You really need to keep those feet moving. I'm always playing people worse than me, and its very easy to become sloppy as you smack the easy shots they give you.

Sean Dugan
08-23-2007, 04:51 PM
I think this has happened to everyone who plays tennis at some point.

And I think you diagnosed your own problem pretty well.

Complacency and carelessness is one part of it; over hitting paceless balls is the other. I know it is hard to lay off those paceless sitters......but, if you're gonna nail it, make sure you don't sail it! Spin, oh me brother, spin!

Instead of going for out and out kill shots on those slower balls, why not just hit a good forehand shot with a lot of spin for safety sake or a slice approach deep into their bh corner (or the open court) and go in behind it. Easy put away volley, point over.

Noveson
08-23-2007, 05:07 PM
Seems like a classic case of an big ego here. First of all if you're an "amazing" player then you wont be losing to people who half lob. What you have to do is get your head round to the fact that you are going to have to try in this match. Personally I just have to think like this isn't somebody I'm expected to beat. Hope that helps.

Dominik
08-23-2007, 05:19 PM
Seems like a classic case of an big ego here. First of all if you're an "amazing" player then you wont be losing to people who half lob. What you have to do is get your head round to the fact that you are going to have to try in this match. Personally I just have to think like this isn't somebody I'm expected to beat. Hope that helps.

I think I'll try this next time. I'll pretend that I got completely destroyed during our last match, and I need to play well to come back- if I don't they'll destroy me again.

I think this has happened to everyone who plays tennis at some point.

And I think you diagnosed your own problem pretty well.

Complacency and carelessness is one part of it; over hitting paceless balls is the other. I know it is hard to lay off those paceless sitters......but, if you're gonna nail it, make sure you don't sail it! Spin, oh me brother, spin!

Instead of going for out and out kill shots on those slower balls, why not just hit a good forehand shot with a lot of spin for safety sake or a slice approach deep into their bh corner (or the open court) and go in behind it. Easy put away volley, point over.

Probably because you are playing lazy. You really need to keep those feet moving. I'm always playing people worse than me, and its very easy to become sloppy as you smack the easy shots they give you.

I think it might help if I combined these two pieces of advice. I can spin much better if my feet keep moving. Finally, like Noveson mentioned, I have to put aside the "I know I can beat them easily" attitude, and replace it with "I can beat them, HOWEVER, I still have to maintain good form in order to do so."

@Sean Dugan, I really liked that rhyme of yours ;)

"If you're gonna nail it, make sure you don't sail it! Spin, oh me brother, spin!"

Thanks to everyone who has posted so far! I really appreciate it. :)

Steady Eddy
08-23-2007, 05:32 PM
I think this happens in all sports. Even golf! Good golfers tell me that they more easily have their game working with a foursome of good golfers. If the foursome is all over the place, hitting randomly, their game feels the influence of that.

So if it happens in golf, where you don't play your opponents shots, imagine how much it affects your tennis game.

My advice is avoid playing bad players.

P.S. Someday when you really have your game wired, playing bad players won't affect it as much.

neo
08-23-2007, 06:47 PM
I think this happens to many players, and the main reason is difficultly maintaining highest concentration when playing against lesser opponents.

So instead of trying to maintain highest concentration and play my best when facing a lesser opponent, I would strive to play just a little better than he does, whatever his level happens to be in that particular moment. If he raises his game than I will raise mine too, just to stay a little above his level at all times.

Of course when I am playing someone who can beat me, than this rule doesn't apply and I always try to play my best.

Golden Retriever
08-24-2007, 03:51 AM
Lets just face it. You, like most 4.0 wannabes, can't attack a soft, mid-court, high-but-not-high-enough-for-an-overhead kind of ball. No shame on that.

superstition
08-24-2007, 05:27 AM
If you lose to someone, that person was the better player in the match. If your level drops according to what player you're playing, you need to improve your ability to focus.

I have won matches precisely by junkballing and by taking pace off shots. Many players feed off pace. They use your pace against you. There's nothing intelligent about allowing that. Many players also like to develop a rhythm. If you can disrupt that, it helps. Frustrating an opponent with "ugly" shots is often effective. You have to adjust to each opponent, sometimes several times in a match. I have a number of playing styles that I use depending on the situation.

smoothtennis
08-24-2007, 06:41 AM
Lets just face it. You, like most 4.0 wannabes, can't attack a soft, mid-court, high-but-not-high-enough-for-an-overhead kind of ball. No shame on that.

LOL - what I was thinking.

I think he should learn what it takes to hit the ball Sean suggested. The only thing worse than slow paceless balls, is high, slow, paceless balls.

You have to move your feet, back up before the ball gets there so you can move forward to hit it. You have to make sure you put a lot of spin on it, but you have to really really make sure you don't take a low to high swing path on these high balls, that is greater than your normal low to high angle.

In other words....get your racket up near the ball before you drive through with your stroke, or you will watch ball after ball sail as you try to spin them in deep. You have to practice this stroke in practice!!! Take 5 minutes each session and have your partner feed you half moon balls. Your goal is to get the ball back aggressively, but never try for an outright winner. Find out what it takes to do this.

You will find what has been so amazing, are the balls the good players have been feeding you all this time. You have to develop stroke diversity in all areas to handle pace, spin, trajectory, and angle.

Good luck!

Phil
08-24-2007, 06:49 AM
I think this happens in all sports. Even golf! Good golfers tell me that they more easily have their game working with a foursome of good golfers. If the foursome is all over the place, hitting randomly, their game feels the influence of that.

So if it happens in golf, where you don't play your opponents shots, imagine how much it affects your tennis game.

My advice is avoid playing bad players.

P.S. Someday when you really have your game wired, playing bad players won't affect it as much.

True, but maybe, in the OP's case, these "worse players" are not worse. This is the lament that we see all the time on this board...the guy with such "great strokes" losing to "inferior" pushers. Anyone who has played the game knows what the real story is here...

dunloplayah
08-24-2007, 06:53 AM
My philosophy on this has always been: you give as good as you get. Playing newbs is hard, they throw all kinds of junk and it's just plain hard to hit. they are inconsistant and so on. When I was moving from 2.5 to 3.0, this was the hardest part. One week in league i'd be against someone my level (closer to 3) and then next week i'd lose to a person playing for a month fresh from first lessons just b/c I couldn't get a good game going.

Yes, part of it is probably mental too, I hate to wail on a newb but if they start hitting well, i up my game too.

smoothtennis
08-24-2007, 08:32 AM
My philosophy on this has always been: you give as good as you get. Playing newbs is hard, they throw all kinds of junk and it's just plain hard to hit. they are inconsistant and so on. When I was moving from 2.5 to 3.0, this was the hardest part. One week in league i'd be against someone my level (closer to 3) and then next week i'd lose to a person playing for a month fresh from first lessons just b/c I couldn't get a good game going.

Yes, part of it is probably mental too, I hate to wail on a newb but if they start hitting well, i up my game too.

Dude...I watched a couple of 3.0 matches at my tourney last week...and LOL, man it was some crazy stuff! These guys had junk I couldn't even concieve of. They were probably 2.5 to be honest. Don't get me wrong...they were having a great time...but nobody had even invented some of what I saw out there. Yes, that could mess up a few guys at 3.5 pretty bad. All you really needed was a mid-court and net game, but they didn't know that.

I even interviewed one of these guys after his match, because it was just too crazy looking!!! He admited to me, that he had no idea what he was doing...he had been playing two months, and was just doing whatever to keep the ball over the net! Hehe, that was great stuff. He was having more fun than most of us I am sure. :mrgreen:

GuyClinch
08-24-2007, 08:50 AM
What people forget is that if you go against someone "better" then you - they will often hold back. Not so much with pace - but they will play "nice." They will hit you steady solid balls with pace right into your wheelhouse because they want to rally a bit and keep things interesting.

This makes players "feel" like they are much better then they are. Your average hacker has no such illusions and will feed you junk all night if that's what it takes to win.

It takes some time to build a game that can deal with this junk. It's not that easy if your below 3.5 level. A legit 4.0 will have no trouble though.

Pete

burosky
08-24-2007, 09:05 AM
One thing the OP didn't mention is if the matches he played against his "weaker" opponents were practice or official matches. I think there is a difference. I look at practice matches for what it is - practice. For me, this means I don't care about the final score. All I care about is being able to practice what I needed to practice be it strategy, tactic or a particular stroke. This has a carry over effect for me because when I do play an official match focusing on the same strategy, tactic or stroke becomes second nature because that was what I was doing during my practice.

Then again as one poster said, it may be just ego that is in play here. Perhaps the "weaker" opponent isn't as weak as the OP thinks he is. The weak opponent may just look weak because the strokes are not as pretty as the OP's strokes. Just keep in mind. The ball doesn't know how pretty the stroke is.

burosky
08-24-2007, 09:11 AM
I also want to add that just because your stroke is prettier than your opponent it doesn't mean you are better. Over the years, even the pro tour had champions with less than pretty strokes. The two most prominent names that I remember are Stefan Edberg's forehand and Johnny Mac's groundies. They are not exactly ugly but doesn't look as pretty as the other pro's strokes. Nonetheless, they are effective.

Automatix
08-24-2007, 09:45 AM
I call this "The Adjustment Syndrom"... if a player is someone you played in the past and always won and the player is playing poorly you aren't able to focus properly and motivate yourself to give your best... something similar is when you easily win the first set let's say 6:0 you don't even realize that you shift to a lower gear... it's all about proper motivation and focus in my opinion...


I did experience this... I played an old friend who hasn't played for about 6-8 months (injury), he was able to get the ball past the net but most of his shots we're really unpredicable because he often framed shots but all were within my reach BUT after about 3 easily won games I started to overhit, frame shots, double fault you name it! I just couldn't focus enough... it was an interesting experience but luckily I've learned to focus no matter what!

This runs both ways you know... I once played with a hurting forearm and just had to hit every ball with a loopy whipy swing (something a la Schnyder) with an absolute loose wrist so I often had to lift the ball but doing so it always hit very close to the baseline... and I played my sparring partner who actually NEVER EVER saw me play like that before! Boy was he ****ed! He just couldn't go with his usual game and after most overhits or short shots he screamed: Are you going to play normal or should I just go for a walk! Or my favorite after I won the first set 7:5 - "I can't win against someone who doesn't know how to play tennis!!!" :grin:

r2473
08-24-2007, 10:36 AM
Okay, this is getting pretty frustrating lately.

When I play against people my level or better than myself, I'm crazy, I'm bouncing everywhere, getting everything, my footwork's near perfect, and my game is ridiculously good most of the time.

However, when I play someone I KNOW I can beat, it's like I adjust myself to their level. I end up getting so many easy shots out, when I try to get into good form and everything (bouncing, reminding myself not to be lazy even though they're not as good players, etc), I just can't find myself. It's like I'm only half there on the courts, and the other part of me is somewhere else (the part with all the skill of course).

I've come up with a few possible explanations,

1. I don't try as hard because I don't feel the need.
2. It's something to do with me not being able to take higher, slower shots properly and turn them into controlled aggression. Maybe I should ask my coach to half-lob a few shots to me and see if I can deal with them properly?

This happens over and over again, even against different people. I'll be amazing against someone good, and then I'll suck against a sub-par player.

Does this happen to anyone else? Any advice?

I imagine that when you play against weaker opponents, 3 things happen:

1) They are unorthodox. You are seeing shots you have not seen before. You are forced into court positions you are not used to. You are hitting the ball in different "strike zones" than you are familiar with. You cannot get into a comfortable rhythm.

2) Your opponent does not provide much pace. He is also able to feed off of your pace and simply redirect balls that you hit with pace.

3) The above 2 things get you frustrated. Then, in addition to everything else, you have to battle with yourself mentally ("this guy is a powder puff. I should be crushing him but I keep hitting everything out and into the net. Every time I hit a good hard shot, he just pushes it back. He hits the weirdest shots. I can't find any rhythm with this guy. I'm so frustrated at his lack of skill. He should not even be on the same court as me. I quit.").

In some sense, you should thank these opponents for pointing out weaknesses in your game. For taking you out of a comfort zone. It means that you have somewhat shaky fundamentals. There is no easy solution to the problem.

I experience the same thing from the opposite side of the fence. I play lesser rated opponents who often tell me that they play much better against me than against opponents of same or lower levels. The reason is, I provide all or nearly all the pace for the game. I hit with topspin, giving them a "fat" ball to hit. I also play orthodox against them, not taking them out of a comfort zone. They love to play against me because I hit with pace and they look good on the court (because they can hit with pace as well, simply feeding off mine).

In some sense it is easier to play against a good player than against a poor (unorthodox) player. You don't know how good you really are until you have to "do everything yourself" (if that makes sense).

smoothtennis
08-24-2007, 10:42 AM
I also want to add that just because your stroke is prettier than your opponent it doesn't mean you are better. Over the years, even the pro tour had champions with less than pretty strokes. The two most prominent names that I remember are Stefan Edberg's forehand and Johnny Mac's groundies. They are not exactly ugly but doesn't look as pretty as the other pro's strokes. Nonetheless, they are effective.


Oh please...I love Johnnie Mac, I really do love his game....but his groudstrokes are so hard to look at it hurts. They are absolutely terrible compared to what technique is like today. He still hit contenental forehand, look uncomfortable as hell, and his backhand grip is on top the racket, which is why even his backhand has that funny uncomfortable look to it.

The man just has such amazing timing and court sense, well, he is just a freaking genius period. Even today he is amazing to watch. Just dont' try to copy his technical mechanics.

pushing_wins
08-24-2007, 11:21 AM
you suck.......

Supernatural_Serve
08-24-2007, 11:42 AM
you suck.......Pushers are usually right with that opinion of their opponents, but don't say it often.

Non-Pushers say it about their Pusher opponents all the time, but they are usually wrong.

Dominik
08-24-2007, 11:59 AM
Lets just face it. You, like most 4.0 wannabes, can't attack a soft, mid-court, high-but-not-high-enough-for-an-overhead kind of ball. No shame on that.

I actually practiced this with my coach today, I'm going to get my friends to try to half-lob me a few balls when we play during this weekend too. I really need to get this down correctly.

If you lose to someone, that person was the better player in the match. If your level drops according to what player you're playing, you need to improve your ability to focus.

The thing is I don't usually lose to these kinds of players. It's just that the game isn't as enjoyable as it should be. I want it to just be over, and go home. Plus the game looks so ugly when we play, and I'm not just blaming them, it's my shots that make it like that too (especially because of the fact that I have barely any motivation- plus, it's probably true that I'm sub-par at getting random higher shots). We can barely hold a rally usually. That's exactly why I'm going to continue practicing to address high shots with my coach.

In other words....get your racket up near the ball before you drive through with your stroke, or you will watch ball after ball sail as you try to spin them in deep. You have to practice this stroke in practice!!! Take 5 minutes each session and have your partner feed you half moon balls. Your goal is to get the ball back aggressively, but never try for an outright winner. Find out what it takes to do this.

Thanks for the tips. That's exactly what I'm planning to do now. Practice these kinds of shots. My coach explained to me (same as what you mentioned), that I shouldn't try to hit winners off of these, just get it back with some pace- it's way too high for a true power shot. Also, I need to start my stroke higher up than usual to hit these well, or else it takes too much time to go up into the ball and it sails.

One thing the OP didn't mention is if the matches he played against his "weaker" opponents were practice or official matches. I think there is a difference. I look at practice matches for what it is - practice. For me, this means I don't care about the final score. All I care about is being able to practice what I needed to practice be it strategy, tactic or a particular stroke. This has a carry over effect for me because when I do play an official match focusing on the same strategy, tactic or stroke becomes second nature because that was what I was doing during my practice.

Then again as one poster said, it may be just ego that is in play here. Perhaps the "weaker" opponent isn't as weak as the OP thinks he is. The weak opponent may just look weak because the strokes are not as pretty as the OP's strokes. Just keep in mind. The ball doesn't know how pretty the stroke is.

I like that last sentence you wrote, it makes a very good point. "The ball doesn't know how pretty the stroke is."

These are just practice matches, btw.

I imagine that when you play against weaker opponents, 3 things happen:

1) They are unorthodox. You are seeing shots you have not seen before. You are forced into court positions you are not used to. You are hitting the ball in different "strike zones" than you are familiar with. You cannot get into a comfortable rhythm.

2) Your opponent does not provide much pace. He is also able to feed off of your pace and simply redirect balls that you hit with pace.

3) The above 2 things get you frustrated. Then, in addition to everything else, you have to battle with yourself mentally ("this guy is a powder puff. I should be crushing him but I keep hitting everything out and into the net. Every time I hit a good hard shot, he just pushes it back. He hits the weirdest shots. I can't find any rhythm with this guy. I'm so frustrated at his lack of skill. He should not even be on the same court as me. I quit.").

In some sense, you should thank these opponents for pointing out weaknesses in your game. For taking you out of a comfort zone. It means that you have somewhat shaky fundamentals. There is no easy solution to the problem.

In some sense it is easier to play against a good player than against a poor (unorthodox) player. You don't know how good you really are until you have to "do everything yourself" (if that makes sense).

I think the things you listed are most likely true. Maybe if I go in with a mindset of something like, "I'm here to practice addressing half-lobs, just instead of doing it with my coach, it's on a court," it would help.

Dominik
08-24-2007, 12:01 PM
you suck.......

I agree. That's exactly what I felt like during my last game against one of these players.

It's usually the scenario of someone walking onto the courts and asking me to hit with them that sparks this kind of thing, just in case anyone's wondering.

r2473
08-24-2007, 12:06 PM
Pushers are usually right with that opinion of their opponents, but don't say it often.

Non-Pushers say it about their Pusher opponents all the time, but they are usually wrong.

I disagree. The first part is true. Pushers do expose weaknesses in peoples games, taking them out of their comfort zone. Forcing them to think and adapt on the court. Basically, showing weaker players that they "suck" (to use the modern adjective).

The second part exposes the arrogance of the pusher. True, these shaky players will blame the pusher for their problems. The pusher will normally quietly chuckle to himself as the non-pusher tells him he sucks (after the pusher has just won the match). But, the pusher is usually careful in the opponents he chooses. He is well aware of the players that don't fall victim to his style. The pusher has a quiet arrogance about him. It is this arrogance that forces him to hunt out the weak "prey" that he can easily frustrate for his amusement. The pusher has his own problems (and is equally unwilling to admit that he "sucks").

johnny ballgame
08-24-2007, 12:45 PM
The second part exposes the arrogance of the pusher. True, these shaky players will blame the pusher for their problems. The pusher will normally quietly chuckle to himself as the non-pusher tells him he sucks (after the pusher has just won the match). But, the pusher is usually careful in the opponents he chooses. He is well aware of the players that don't fall victim to his style. The pusher has a quiet arrogance about him. It is this arrogance that forces him to hunt out the weak "prey" that he can easily frustrate for his amusement. The pusher has his own problems (and is equally unwilling to admit that he "sucks").

Brilliant, I love it.

You suck pushers! (especially those that have beaten me).

pushing_wins
08-24-2007, 12:48 PM
Brilliant, I love it.

You suck pushers! (every last one of you that has beaten me).

am i a pusher? check my video.

galatti
08-24-2007, 12:53 PM
you suck.......

Despites this miserable post, this thread is great and moderators should stick it :D

OrangeOne
08-24-2007, 12:55 PM
True, but maybe, in the OP's case, these "worse players" are not worse. This is the lament that we see all the time on this board...the guy with such "great strokes" losing to "inferior" pushers. Anyone who has played the game knows what the real story is here...

Yeah, the real story is that I was ripped off! I'm a better player, ok? I beat him all of the time in practice sets, where you should just see my tweener in overdrive! And when the coach isn't watching, we had a challenge set (and not a fake one, we both put the life of a significant other on the line), and I killed him, sooo killed him, I mean, it was a breaker, and 14-12 in the breaker, but it was the biggest beating of a 14-12 you've ever seen. I was smoking, man. Anyways, on match day, nothing would work, and all he hit was junk, and my tweener just wasn't working.... It was the closest 0 - 6 you've ever seen, and the only reason it was a golden set is that he aced me 4 times off the frame in the final game!

pushing_wins
08-26-2007, 09:53 PM
dominik

i m in north york

what is your level?

lets hit

Frank Silbermann
08-27-2007, 01:53 AM
I also want to add that just because your stroke is prettier than your opponent it doesn't mean you are better. Over the years, even the pro tour had champions with less than pretty strokes. The two most prominent names that I remember are Stefan Edberg's forehand and Johnny Mac's groundies. They are not exactly ugly but doesn't look as pretty as the other pro's strokes. Nonetheless, they are effective. Edberg's backhand was beautiful. John McEnroe's groundstrokes were better looking than most. I remember how amazed I was when he was 18 in 1979 and he reached the semis at Wimbledon -- he could topspin his backhand return-of-serve any time he wanted to -- even against first serves! That was amazing, and beautiful to watch! (What is ugly -- more so in still photographs than on the court -- is seeing people contact the ball on their forehands with their elbow well below the wrist and racket handle, especially if the racket head is pointing downwards.)

Yes, you can be the better player by virtue of having better strokes, yet lose if the opponent has better tactics. Otherwise those books published forty years ago with titles "How to be Better Tennis Players" would not have made any sense. Tennis can be a rock-paper-scissors kind of game, where Paul beats George, George beats everyone except Paul, and everyone else beats Paul. That doesn't make Paul better than George (except in that single context in which they play each other).

The Red Baron said he feared novice opponents most of all, because he never could guess what they were going to do -- even they didn't know what they were going to do next.

A poor player may hit shots that good players don't because they can be taken advantage of -- but you have not practiced taking advantage of those shots because all the good players you play know better than to hit them. You don't learn to beat serve-and-volleyers by playing baseliners, nor vice-versa. If you want to beat crappy players, you have to play crappy players periodically to stay in practice doing the kinds of things you need to do against them. (Either that, or be _so_ far above them that you can beat them despite being way out of practice.)

kimizz
08-27-2007, 01:55 AM
To the OP, My guess is that 1)with less pace in the game(against "worse" players) your muscles are not warming up enough-->your game is not in the max level 2) You still lack in technique. I think the "lesser" players are good indicators of your REAL level. So work hard on your technique and stay focused against every opponent...tennis is soooo difficult for most of us mortals..never think too much of your abilities.

madmanfool
08-27-2007, 03:39 AM
You should try to play against these types of players as much as possible, best in tournaments, not just for fun. I'm in the same boat as you. Tennis has a lot to do with match-ups, wether it's at the pro level or ours. Some or a bad match-up for you, simple as that. No offense, but if you lose to these players it simply means you are not as good as you think. They managed to find your weakness.

But if you play a lot against them, that should help. Keep these things in mind when doing so:
- keep moving. I always find myself standing still all the time.
- don't drop the pase. I always start well, swinging freely. But after a few games i drop the pase and that's when the misery starts.
- keep in mind, that even though it's no fun playing these guys, if you do win you can come back for the next match. Which will hopefully be against a non pusher

AceofBase
08-27-2007, 03:55 AM
if i were you just play safety and put in the ball to play, think its as a warm up or so.

Wits-Z
08-27-2007, 06:25 AM
What people forget is that if you go against someone "better" then you - they will often hold back. Not so much with pace - but they will play "nice." They will hit you steady solid balls with pace right into your wheelhouse because they want to rally a bit and keep things interesting.

Pete


Pete: I think that is what I experience.. It's a part conscious and a part subconscious in my situation. For me, I tend to feel a little bad unloading on a less skilled hitting partner. I ran into it with my father who is a solid player, but has a hard time with a lot of spin and heavy shots. I found myself holding back because I didn't want to overwhelm him -- just doing enough to win points, but not more. By doing that I wasn't taking my natural and full swing at the ball which led to a lot of unforced errors and sloppy shots. I don't think I'd have that problem if it was a competitive match, but some of those tendencies are hard to reverse.

mona999
08-27-2007, 08:28 AM
dominik

i m in north york

what is your level?

lets hit

what's your level?? i'm in mississauga, let's hit...