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Verilious
08-27-2007, 02:43 PM
*Cracks Knuckles*

Time for a philosophy thread! Now the following was taken from another site's forums that I found intriguing. NOTE: This is not mine and in no way take credit for it.





Scientists say the universe began 12,000,000,000 years ago with the "big bang".

Religious people say God created it. There argument for this is simple and convincing and usually done by anology:

You're walking on the beach and you see a watch in the sand. You pick it up and you marvel at it's compexity. Something this precise and ingenious didn't just pop out of nowhere, right? A skilled crafstman made it. Now think about the human eye. Think about how complex that is and even our finest scientists have not figured it out. Surley something this complex didn't just come to be randomly. A skilled crafstman had to make it. Who is this sentient being? God. God in his almighty pulled the levers of the univers to the right setting and out popped the universe.

NOTE: If the gravitaional pull of the universe was off by just a LITTLE BIT, the universe would have lasted a few seconds.

NOTE: If the moon was a foot farther or closer to earth life would not exist on the planet.

Therefor, the universe randomly happening is VERY UNLIKLEY. But then the question of where God came from arrises.

If something so magnificent has to be created, then why not apply the same theory to God? Some say it is an infinite chain of Gods creating one another. But that still would hold no validity for some people because there would STILL HAVE TO BE A BEGINNING JUST LIKE THERE WAS A BEGINNING TO THE UNIVERSE.


Then the scientists say the big bang was a random occurence:

Say you buy 1,000 lottery tickets and you win. THIS IS VERY VERY UNLIKLEY. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than winning the lottery. Naturally you may think somebody rigged it to hit on the right note so you could win, but obviously they didn't. Why not apply the same principle to the universe? Maybe the universe is like the lottery in that it was the rare occurence where it hit on the right note and life became possible.


Either way you can't PROVE or DISPROVE God's existence and for that matter HOW the universe came to be. Take it with a grain of salt and rely on faith a.k.a. beliefs.



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Fairly interesting. What's your take on it? How and Why are we here? What created us, or who created us? Is anything, or anyone actually real? How did everything come to be?

P.S. Try not to turn this into a religious flame war, m'kay?

Ready....GO!!!!

Max G.
08-27-2007, 03:21 PM
I have no comments on the philosophy of the complexity argument, but I'd at least like to comment on scientific misconceptions:


If the moon was a foot farther or closer to earth life would not exist on the planet.


That's not true. As a matter of fact, the moon is moving further away from Earth at a rate of approximately 3.8 centimeters per year. This rate has varied in the past, and is estimated to have been approximately 2 centimeters per year 650 million years ago, and less before then. Regardless of the exact values, that's fast enough so that the moon moves A LOT more than "a foot closer or farther" over the course of life's existence here on earth. The assertion that "if the moon was a foot farther or closer to earth life would not exist on the planet" is false.


Then the scientists say the big bang was a random occurence:


I'm not really sure that this is a reasonable claim. It doesn't make sense to talk about why or how the big bang occurred when we have as little understanding of it as we do; saying that it was a "random" occurrence implies that we know something about its cause and that this cause was some sort of random mechanism, but we really don't have that sort of knowledge. Though I have not done the literature search myself, I think I could be pretty confident in saying that "the big bang was a random occurrence" is not a scientifically supported assertion.

angharad
08-27-2007, 03:34 PM
Now think about the human eye. Think about how complex that is and even our finest scientists have not figured it out.

I don't understand this quote. What haven't scientists "figured out" about the human eye? I'm not an optometrist, but I have taken more than my fair share of biology and A&P classes, and I don't know what we have yet to figure out about the human eye.


Beyond that...I love astronomy. I've studied it for awhile, and though I tend to side with it in "creation of the universe" debates, I'm still amazed at how much we don't know. What I don't understand is why people think that a scientific explanation and a religious-based explanation are necessarily mutually exclusive. I fall more on the "logic" and "reason" side of things, and usually side with science, but that doesn't mean I can't see the possibility of some greater force out there orchestrating it. It's not an either/or scenario.

Bodacious DVT
08-27-2007, 04:04 PM
a friend of mine did a report on this. some of the facts that he had were fascinating. i'll try to get some from him and post them up here.

Steady Eddy
08-27-2007, 05:21 PM
If you like the watch analogy, then let's continue with it.

Who invented (created) the watch? Answer: no single individual. It was the outcome of the efforts of many people over a long time. The watch didn't come about at a moment, it evolved.

So if one is really impressed with this comparison, then you'd argue that the universe wasn't created by any single entity in a moment, but that it evolved thru the efforts of many entities over a long period of time. At least that's what this analogy would support.

drakulie
08-27-2007, 05:48 PM
Therefor, the universe randomly happening is VERY UNLIKLEY. But then the question of where God came from arrises.

If something so magnificent has to be created, then why not apply the same theory to God? Some say it is an infinite chain of Gods creating one another. But that still would hold no validity for some people because there would STILL HAVE TO BE A BEGINNING JUST LIKE THERE WAS A BEGINNING TO THE UNIVERSE.

In relation to the question of >>> "Then who created God?" The same could be said about the Big Bang >>>> "What created the big bang, and what was it before, and before that, and before that,,,,infiniti?"

Bodacious DVT
08-27-2007, 06:06 PM
In relation to the question of >>> "Then who created God?" The same could be said about the Big Bang >>>> "What created the big bang, and what was it before, and before that, and before that,,,,infiniti?"

Excellent point. No matter what you believe, it comes down to faith. We cannot fully comprehend God, nor can we fully understand the big bang.

tennispro11
08-27-2007, 06:19 PM
Excellent point. No matter what you believe, it comes down to faith. We cannot fully comprehend God, nor can we fully understand the big bang.

Well said. This helps me sometimes. I think therefore I am. Cogito Ergo Sum.

Freedom
08-27-2007, 09:01 PM
God made it all! God always was, always is, and is to come. Nothing created God- He just was.

Also, you may want to look into the 'New Earth' theories. That's very interesting. :D

Kobble
08-27-2007, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Verilious
Either way you can't PROVE or DISPROVE God's existence and for that matter HOW the universe came to be. Take it with a grain of salt and rely on faith a.k.a. beliefs.

Wrong, I was once able to reason away the existence of a god. I have since forgotten this logic I used. But you can't prove or disprove that. So, I win, because I KNOW that I disproved a god; you can only speculate (faith).

Phil
08-27-2007, 11:47 PM
Either way you can't PROVE or DISPROVE God's existence and for that matter HOW the universe came to be. Take it with a grain of salt and rely on faith a.k.a. beliefs.
So, in other words, you cannot prove or disprove God's existance so, just believe in him (because I say so). Right. This topic has been beaten to death here...DO A SEARCH.

P.S. Try not to turn this into a religious flame war, m'kay?
Why say that, when that's EXACTLY what you want to happen? If you search this topic, you will notice that the other 30 or so times that it has been discussed in the last year or so, has turned into a flame war. There's no way that it cannot.

koopa_troopa
08-28-2007, 12:10 AM
I don't understand this quote. What haven't scientists "figured out" about the human eye? I'm not an optometrist, but I have taken more than my fair share of biology and A&P classes, and I don't know what we have yet to figure out about the human eye.



The person who wrote the quote probably didn't understand the argument already in place. As you have said, scientists have figured out how the eye works really well and its not really complicated. The age old creation argument is scientists do not know how the eye developed and is too complicated to have evolved.

Verillious, did you take this from a post on another forum is it a piece from a real article?

Docalex007
08-28-2007, 04:16 AM
Excellent point. No matter what you believe, it comes down to faith. We cannot fully comprehend God, nor can we fully understand the big bang.

So us not being able to fully comprehend something, whether it be science related or supernaturally related, means we should demean our intelligence for a lack of a better understanding? :confused:

Why? Just because I can't disprove unicorns or cave elves to 100% certainty, doesn't mean I should just use faith and believe they're there because of some fantasy book I read.

Use your brains people, the lack of an answer or understanding shouldn't require one to "make up" something to fill the void.

LuckyR
08-28-2007, 11:36 AM
The OP used the idea that this or that event or thing is highly unlikely (watches, eyeballs). How unlikely? One in a billion chance? One in a trillion chance? One in a quadrillion chance? Think about this: over "12,000,000,000 years" there are an exponentially higher number times that number of "chances" for molecules to bounce off one another, proteins and amino acids to form, DNA to form, cell walls to form, the human eyeball to form, randomly...

Why wouldn't life form randomly? No need to invoke the wisdom of God to explain what we observe. This isn't a proof against God, far from it, just that we don't need to invoke it to explain our universe.

On the subject of "proofs" on the existance or non-existance of God: why would anyone think that something so beyond our understanding (by the common definition of God) would be subject to the vastly inferior human mind's ability to prove or disprove it?

Geezer Guy
08-28-2007, 01:01 PM
... Say you buy 1,000 lottery tickets and you win. THIS IS VERY VERY UNLIKLEY. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning than winning the lottery. Naturally you may think somebody rigged it to hit on the right note so you could win, but obviously they didn't. Why not apply the same principle to the universe? Maybe the universe is like the lottery in that it was the rare occurence where it hit on the right note and life became possible. ...

People win the lottery all the time. There are more millionaires (usually just temporarily) from the lottery than you can shake a stick at. Someone getting hit by lightning is much less likely than someone winning the lottery. (For one thing, people are actually TRYING to win the lottery, and are trying to AVOID getting hit by lightning.)