PDA

View Full Version : A sad day...


Shaolin
11-03-2004, 12:14 PM
George W is to the US presidency what Justin Gimelstob is to tennis.

Actually worse.

Sorry just had to vent.

Jonas
11-03-2004, 12:23 PM
That's terrible Shaolin. You ought to be ashamed. I am not one to gloat on the subject, but it just couldn't get any worse for the Dems. In actuality they lost everything. I respect my democratic friends, but i do enjoy watching CNN/CBS a LOT more now!

Thanatos
11-03-2004, 12:40 PM
George W is to the US presidency what Justin Gimelstob is to tennis.

Actually worse.

Sorry just had to vent.

Shaolin..it's cool to vent, but as you see the country has been moving towards a conservative prespective.

Datacipher
11-03-2004, 12:47 PM
I salute the Americans. They made a wise choice in my opinion. They didn't go for the slickest talker. I wish we had a leader who followed through on what he thinks is the correct course of action or at least the direction he is committed to even in the face of fickle public opinion. It gives me some faith that the election was not decided by ignorant masses with off the top of their head philosophies swayed by propaganda. Not to say all democrats are like this! Just that often mass public perception is...

PusherMan
11-03-2004, 01:05 PM
I'm pleased with America. To bail on Bush in a time of war would have shown great weakness to the world. With this display of resolve, I'm certain we will win the war on terror.

The tennis guy
11-03-2004, 01:16 PM
PusherMan,

What's your definition of 'win the war on terror'?

baseliner
11-03-2004, 01:16 PM
A proud American who is thankful th U.S. did not do to George W. Bush what the U.K. did to Winston Churchhill. W is a determined leader who will see our nation through this war. I'm one vet who rejoices in the results.

rhubarb
11-03-2004, 01:23 PM
Go and talk about this somewhere else, please. The election is over, let's get back to tennis.

elbuzzard
11-03-2004, 01:28 PM
we are F...ed

NoBadMojo
11-03-2004, 01:30 PM
Shaolin/Michael I think the one good thing that came out of the election is that at last all these negative ads slamming the opponent are finally over..other than that, i agree w. you that this was indeed a dark day for the world.

ShooterMcMarco
11-03-2004, 01:31 PM
I salute the Americans. They made a wise choice in my opinion. They didn't go for the slickest talker. I wish we had a leader who followed through on what he thinks is the correct course of action or at least the direction he is committed to even in the face of fickle public opinion. It gives me some faith that the election was not decided by ignorant masses with off the top of their head philosophies swayed by propaganda. Not to say all democrats are like this! Just that often mass public perception is...

well put :)

Like what Dennis Miller said on the tonight show, "Bush is the type of president that wakes up in the morning, puts his cold feet on the floor, and says, 'lets kill some f***ing terrorists.'"

mlee2
11-03-2004, 01:34 PM
We, Americans, will absolutely deserve what we get in the next four years, good or bad.

Apparently, the rest of the world feels we deserve bad.

Gee, I wonder how a ****ed off world will contribute to the issue of terrorism.

The tennis guy
11-03-2004, 01:39 PM
mlee2,

I guess some of us deserve more than others, not all of us deserve the same.

don knot
11-03-2004, 01:41 PM
Let me tell you something about the rest of the world. The only reason America has not been invaded by any other country is one reason: They can't! I knew America wasn't buying all of that crazy left wing stuff. Kerry will now take his rightful place along-side other former (extremely weak Dem. Candidates, Gore,Dukakis) I am also glad that it was a large and clear victory, can we all say "style" and "substance"! I really admire President Bush, he is a man of great character, resolve, and substance. I have never been more proud to be an American!

atatu
11-03-2004, 01:59 PM
Take this somewhere else, please. You guys can do your gloating on the "odds and ends" forum, in fact it's already being done.

Jonas
11-03-2004, 02:18 PM
To be fair Atatu,
This thread was not started by a "Gloater", but it has been ended by a few.

HookEmJeff
11-03-2004, 02:41 PM
I think Justin *wishes* that above statement were true. Besides, Justin's syntax and off-the-cuff speaking skills are better that Dubya. I'd wager to say Bush's ground game might be a bit better, though.

Jeff

Phil
11-03-2004, 07:47 PM
I salute the Americans. They made a wise choice in my opinion. They didn't go for the slickest talker. I wish we had a leader who followed through on what he thinks is the correct course of action or at least the direction he is committed to even in the face of fickle public opinion. It gives me some faith that the election was not decided by ignorant masses with off the top of their head philosophies swayed by propaganda. Not to say all democrats are like this! Just that often mass public perception is...

You're obviously not an American and not familiar with the President or his former challenger. You're also quite naive.

The slickest talker is Bush-He won an election because his largely ignorant, war mongering and bible thumping constituency swallowed it whole everytime he opened his mouth. All he has to do is go into some pancake house, slap a few backs (act like a common man), invoke the name of God a few times and utter some ridiculous platitude-like "We WILL win the war on terror or by golley, I'll cut another tree down on my ranch in Crawford". This isn't a vote for the best policy or what's good for the country or the common man (for whom Bush could care less)-it's a vote for personality, like in my old high school. That's sad. Kerry is not, by anyone's definition, a "slick" talker. He's quite articulate, but he's boring to the point of being a cadaverous-i.e. dead or zombified.

Bush gives "the common man" what he wants to hear. You are TOTALLY off base here because the election WAS decided by the ignorant masses-enough of them to turn the tide. Come to America one day instead of watching TV, and you will know what I'm talking about.

mlee2
11-03-2004, 07:56 PM
Let me tell you something about the rest of the world. The only reason America has not been invaded by any other country is one reason: They can't! I knew America wasn't buying all of that crazy left wing stuff. Kerry will now take his rightful place along-side other former (extremely weak Dem. Candidates, Gore,Dukakis) I am also glad that it was a large and clear victory, can we all say "style" and "substance"! I really admire President Bush, he is a man of great character, resolve, and substance. I have never been more proud to be an American!

If you don't think ****ed off people around the world aren't possible terrorist recruits, please tell me who is? There are too many economic and stability consequences for a country(s) to attack the U.S, but I was talking about TERRORISTS. This time around, it will be very hard for America to gain sympathy when (not if)
terrorists strike with another 9/11-type attack.

I won't blame Bush for anything other than Iraq. But the mess in Iraq is clear and inexcusable. We have a lot of ****ed off people, here in America and especially abroad, regarding that.

I agree that the Dems had a weak candidate, but to me, Kerry's strength was he understood that America is not invincible, and we will need/want other countries' help in order to win this "war on terror" (tm).

Otherwise, we're just asking for a draft. Let's see if Bush voters will put their life where their mouth is.

Osama Bin Laden was also another person with character, resolve, and substance. Unfortunately to Americans and 9/11, he was the Arab counterpart to Bush.

mlee2
11-03-2004, 08:05 PM
mlee2,

I guess some of us deserve more than others, not all of us deserve the same.

Yes we do.

To the rest of the world, Bush is very close to Hitler.

They will see us as **** conspirators and will feel no sympathy towards us (even us Bush-haters) when we get attacked again. Germany is a great example. Going through fascism themselves, they will refuse to see another instance of a passive population tolerating an expanding empirical government.

To most of the world, us Bush-bashers should do no less than riot on the streets: non-stop.

People in America severly underestimate how badly and horribly the world hates us right now.

Phil
11-03-2004, 08:38 PM
Yes we do.

To the rest of the world, Bush is very close to Hitler.

They will see us as **** conspirators and will feel no sympathy towards us (even us Bush-haters) when we get attacked again. Germany is a great example. Going through fascism themselves, they will refuse to see another instance of a passive population tolerating an expanding empirical government.

To most of the world, us Bush-bashers should do no less than riot on the streets: non-stop.

People in America severly underestimate how badly and horribly the world hates us right now.


To compare Bush to Hitler, or Americans as Nazis is to trivialize the words **** and Hitler and to gravely insult the memory of the 40 million total dead that Hitler and Germany were responsible for.

I dislike the cabal of right wing whackos that has taken over our government and planted puppet strings in poor old frat boy Bush, but this hardly equates them to Hitler. Not yet, and not ever. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks, if that's what they think, then they are dead wrong. Stop being a schmuck.

Deuce
11-03-2004, 09:28 PM
Dennis Miller says "Bush is the type of president that wakes up in the morning, puts his cold feet on the floor, and says, 'lets kill some f***ing terrorists.'"

Actually, what Bush says is "let's kill some f***ing terrorists. And if we happen to kill a few innocent people... actually, many innocent people... among them women and children... well... welll... um... uh... Well, we'll make something up to fool the masses... yeah... that's what we'll do... I guess..."

There was a little documentary made recently about the Bush administration - no, I'm not referring to 'Farenheit 911'... the documentary I refer to is better than Moore's film. It is titled 'The World According to Bush'. It is done in the same vein as Moore's film - questioning decisions, exposing flagrant and countless abuses, etc. - but it runs considerably deeper than 'Farenheit'. In the documentary, several persons with very direct experience within the U.S. government speak out against the Bush administration. The interviews are profound and revealing. It's worth seeing. I believe it's available on DVD.

Seeing as the American government has shown more than a slight tendency to force themselves into effectively controlling parts of the world which are not part of the U.S.A., I propose that all adult citizens of the world be eligible to vote in U.S. Presedential elections. It only makes sense that those whose lives will be directly affected by the outcome be given a fair and just opportunity to determine their fate - as much as is possible, at least, and be given the right to vote. Anything less, after all, cannot honestly be called democracy, let alone true freedom...

Phil
11-03-2004, 09:51 PM
Seeing as the American government has shown more than a slight tendency to force themselves into effectively controlling parts of the world which are not part of the U.S.A., I propose that all citizens of the world be eligible to vote in U.S. Presedential elections.

It's bad enough that AMERICANS can vote in the US elections. Why would I want YOU to vote for my president anymore than I would want Vladamir, Abdul, Faisel, Jacques and Hans to vote for him? I have a better idea. Why doesn't YOUR country get rid of its obolete Commonwealth trappings (i.e. Parliament, Prime Minister, judges' wigs, the "Royal" in Royal Canadian Mounted Police, etc.) and just attach itself to Minnesota, like it should have done in the first place?

I see where you're coming from, but I've heard this idea being thrown around over the last few months-not so much as a realistic proposal, but as a way to illustrate-and criticize-US hegemony. Now it's getting old. We get the point.

AAAA
11-04-2004, 04:12 AM
Seeing as the American government has shown more than a slight tendency to force themselves into effectively controlling parts of the world which are not part of the U.S.A., I propose that all citizens of the world be eligible to vote in U.S. Presedential elections.

It's bad enough that AMERICANS can vote in the US elections. Why would I want YOU to vote for my president anymore than I would want Vladamir, Abdul, Faisel, Jacques and Hans to vote for him? I have a better idea. Why doesn't YOUR country get rid of its obolete Commonwealth trappings (i.e. Parliament, Prime Minister, judges' wigs, the "Royal" in Royal Canadian Mounted Police, etc.) and just attach itself to Minnesota, like it should have done in the first place?

I see where you're coming from, but I've heard this idea being thrown around over the last few months-not so much as a realistic proposal, but as a way to illustrate-and criticize-US hegemony. Now it's getting old. We get the point.

Phil, Judging by Deuce's post about baseball in the 'baseball is silly' thread, Deuce's country is also your country.

Sacco
11-04-2004, 04:58 AM
DON'T MOURN, ORGANIZE!!!


p.s. Don't ever go to Utah.

Camilio Pascual
11-04-2004, 09:59 AM
So....
When are we raiding Iran?
Relieving the rich of their tax burden?
Grabbing those kids before they get left behind?
Leaving the Democracy of Iraq?
Leaving the Democracy of Iran?
Appointing the most radical right Supreme Court in history?
See the emergence of compassion from under the cloak of conservatism?
Giving John Ashcroft the right to examine anybody's underwear at any time for any reason? Will we be required to wear them outside of our pants...so they will be easier to check?

Ben42
11-04-2004, 10:58 AM
So....
When are we raiding Iran?
Relieving the rich of their tax burden?
Grabbing those kids before they get left behind?
Leaving the Democracy of Iraq?
Leaving the Democracy of Iran?
Appointing the most radical right Supreme Court in history?
See the emergence of compassion from under the cloak of conservatism?
Giving John Ashcroft the right to examine anybody's underwear at any time for any reason? Will we be required to wear them outside of our pants...so they will be easier to check?


Geez Camilio, it's only been two days. It's been a hard campaign. I figure Bush will take a month or so of vacation in Crawford, then he'll start in on all of that stuff.

Thanatos
11-04-2004, 11:02 AM
So....
When are we raiding Iran?
Relieving the rich of their tax burden?
Grabbing those kids before they get left behind?
Leaving the Democracy of Iraq?
Leaving the Democracy of Iran?
Appointing the most radical right Supreme Court in history?
See the emergence of compassion from under the cloak of conservatism?
Giving John Ashcroft the right to examine anybody's underwear at any time for any reason? Will we be required to wear them outside of our pants...so they will be easier to check?


Geez Camilio, it's only been two days. It's been a hard campaign. I figure Bush will take a month or so of vacation in Crawford, then he'll start in on all of that stuff.

It's over. There you guys go again splitting nation.
We are supposed to work together now and support our commander in chief.

david aames
11-04-2004, 11:18 AM
We split the nation?? Your boy's agenda split the nation.
Take a good look at the electoral map and see where this nation is headed to. Not in my name.

It's over. There you guys go again splitting nation.
We are supposed to work together now and support our commander in chief.

Thanatos
11-04-2004, 11:50 AM
We split the nation?? Your boy's agenda split the nation.
Take a good look at the electoral map and see where this nation is headed to. Not in my name.

It's over. There you guys go again splitting nation.
We are supposed to work together now and support our commander in chief.

I'm look at the map and it seems like your views are in the minority. Deal with it for another 4 more years...ha! However, there's always the option for you to apply for immrgation status in Canada or France.

Gatsby007
11-04-2004, 12:35 PM
David,
You just don't get it. This needs to be said again. Real America (everything except for the occasional Nut-Job in California, or New York) does not like Michael Moore, Al Franken, Holywood Celebs with 4th grade educations telling them how to vote. Take another look at the Ec map it was and is bleeding red. Michael Moore and Hollywood did more for Bush than they did for Kerry, it's halarious. If the Democrats ever want to be in the White House again, they are going to have to get out of the far left. They'll have plenty of time as their next shot will be around 2016.
Also, Anyone that says this election wasn't a blow-out is (to borrow a phrase from Kerry "out of touch with reality") Bush won the popular and electoral votes. Republicans now dominate both houses. This is/was a crushing blow to the destructing democratic party. I wonder which guy was out of touch with reality. Thank God the reasonable people of America got out and voted on Tuesday. This is at best pitiful!
Why are we still discussing this?

david aames
11-04-2004, 12:59 PM
Bush will go down the drain like Nixon, another lying drunk from Texas did after CRUSHING McGovern in 72. FYI, he won all states except for DC and Mass back then...

Take another look at the Ec map it was and is bleeding red. Michael Moore and Hollywood did more for Bush than they did for Kerry, it's halarious. If the Democrats ever want to be in the White House again, they are going to have to get out of the far left. They'll have plenty of time as their next shot will be around 2016.
Also, Anyone that says this election wasn't a blow-out is (to borrow a phrase from Kerry "out of touch with reality") Bush won the popular and electoral votes. Republicans now dominate both houses. This is/was a crushing blow to the destructing democratic party. I wonder which guy was out of touch with reality. Thank God the reasonable people of America got out and voted on Tuesday. This is at best pitiful!
Why are we still discussing this?

Bhagi Katbamna
11-04-2004, 01:05 PM
Bush will go down the drain like Nixon, another lying drunk from Texas did after CRUSHING McGovern in 72. FYI, he won all states except for DC and Mass back then...

FYI, Nixon was from California.

Tennis Guy
11-04-2004, 01:27 PM
Bush will go down the drain like Nixon, another lying drunk from Texas did after CRUSHING McGovern in 72. FYI, he won all states except for DC and Mass back then...
Nixon won 49 states. (Him and Reagan are the only ones to have won that many.)

Gatsby007
11-04-2004, 01:34 PM
Yaeh David, I would certainly make sure my crazy left-wing talking points were correct before making a fool out of myself.
It's so awesome that we don't have to see that hideous war ciminal on tv ever again!!!! Open mouth-insert foot!

The tennis guy
11-04-2004, 01:48 PM
Reading these posts, it is exactly the reason this country is going downhill.

Regardless of who you are supporting, has anyone just sit down and look at the financial situation of this country? In 20 years, this country is headed to bankrupting itself.

It is a sad day, not because Bush is re-elected, but people of this country don't even pay enough attention to its own financial crisis. People who raise these serious issues have been drown by the partisan fight.

This is first time in my life I have pessimistic view of our country's future.

David Pavlich
11-04-2004, 02:07 PM
I salute the Americans. They made a wise choice in my opinion. They didn't go for the slickest talker. I wish we had a leader who followed through on what he thinks is the correct course of action or at least the direction he is committed to even in the face of fickle public opinion. It gives me some faith that the election was not decided by ignorant masses with off the top of their head philosophies swayed by propaganda. Not to say all democrats are like this! Just that often mass public perception is...

You're obviously not an American and not familiar with the President or his former challenger. You're also quite naive.

The slickest talker is Bush-He won an election because his largely ignorant, war mongering and bible thumping constituency swallowed it whole everytime he opened his mouth. All he has to do is go into some pancake house, slap a few backs (act like a common man), invoke the name of God a few times and utter some ridiculous platitude-like "We WILL win the war on terror or by golley, I'll cut another tree down on my ranch in Crawford". This isn't a vote for the best policy or what's good for the country or the common man (for whom Bush could care less)-it's a vote for personality, like in my old high school. That's sad. Kerry is not, by anyone's definition, a "slick" talker. He's quite articulate, but he's boring to the point of being a cadaverous-i.e. dead or zombified.

Bush gives "the common man" what he wants to hear. You are TOTALLY off base here because the election WAS decided by the ignorant masses-enough of them to turn the tide. Come to America one day instead of watching TV, and you will know what I'm talking about.

Hey Phil: Continue with that attitude...the ignorant thing. The fact that the Democrat party has be coopted by the MoveOn.Org/Michael Moore faction is the reason Bush is still in the Whitehouse. It's the Democrat party that's ignorant, or should I say stupid for allowing what was a vibrant party turn into a shrill, whining caricature. The good people of the Dem party, Lieberman, Miller, Bayh, have no seat at the table.

I give my heartfelt thanks to George Soros, MoveOn, Michael Moore, Danny Glover, Ben Afleck and so on for energizing the right. There was a big turn-out-the-vote but unlike the conventional wisdom, it turned out to be the GOP that won the battle of turn out. It wasn't Limbaugh or Hannity or Liddy or Boortz that got the people out, it was the whining, snivelling people like Franken and Moore that did it.

And the payoff? The Dems will be out of power for at least another generation or until someone grabs the Dem leadership by the throat and slaps some sense into them. People like Terry McCauliffe have to be removed from positions of power if you ever want to see another Dem in the Whitehouse.

Remember, this is the first time since FDR that a President was reelected AND gained seats in both houses. There's a reason for it and it isn't because the right side of the aisle's inhabitants are ignorant...

David

Jonas
11-04-2004, 02:30 PM
Well said David. The once respected party has become a laughing stock becuase of freaks like Moore, Sorros, and Mccaullife just to name a few. Of course there are people ON THIS AND IN THIS THREAD that subscribe to these types of views. That;s o.k., i guess?
They just need to understand that they will continue to be laughed at and humiliated in the election process in the U.S. for years to come. It's not just the right that is turned off by those party leader idiots, but it's a mojority of the democrats as well. Another group that comes to mind in the NAACP. I am sincerely humilated for them and thier leaders.

Sacco
11-04-2004, 05:34 PM
Than wrote:
I'm look at the map and it seems like your views are in the minority. Deal with it for another 4 more years...ha! However, there's always the option for you to apply for immigration status in Canada or France.

So you're saying all minorities that can't 'deal with it', by I would assume shutting up, should leave the country.

But tracing it back to John Locke, the Declaration espouses that the government is set up by the people to secure their life, liberty, and happiness, and IS to be overthrown when it no longer does that.

I guess your point would be, beside the racism, classism, and sexism inherent, that the Declaration does NOT address property rights. So your argument would be territorial-- I am the majority called United States... it is my country, so if you don't like it, get off my property.

Unfortunately that is the best interpretation one can make from your feeble comment.

I, for one, would rather overthrow you, and your sexist/classist/racist coon-hunting majority, than leave.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

thejerk
11-04-2004, 06:15 PM
But Sacco, there are so many communist/socialist utopias to choose from. Sacco, you are a carpet bagger. You went to Ohio to help the poor stupid people in the red states, but they turned against you. I'd be bitter too.

You call people sexist, you are one of those that didn't cheer when the 19 year old girl voted in Afganistan.

You say classist, your's is the side that tries to pit one against the other. After all, doesn't your bible, the little red book, say that history is warfare between the classes.

You say racist, you are the one that feels sorry for non whites. Condescention is racism. Patronizing people just shows you don't in your heart think they can take care of themselves. Why do you feel that non white people can't take care of themselves without you and the government?

Socialist/communist ideology always seeks to turn individuals into groups to be pit one against another.

Me and my wife love to play with people like you. She is brown and despises libs. We can spot you guys from a mile away. She has learned how to make fools do cart wheels. It is hillarious. Sometimes I will pretend to be a stranger and start talking down to her just to get a rise. Sometimes, she will point at me, in the distance, and say I said somethng racist to her. Then I'll wait about 20 mins and head in that direction after she leaves and try to talk to the sheep. It is funny, the sheep like you, always, and I mean always, assume the white guy did something wrong.

You talk about people in red states being ignorant. I think you are ignorant. Look at the districts map. It is even more red than the states map. What I have noticed most about the district map is that the blues aren't allowed to have guns. You can't even trust each other with guns.

Phil
11-04-2004, 08:43 PM
Hey Phil: Continue with that attitude...the ignorant thing. The fact that the Democrat party has be coopted by the MoveOn.Org/Michael Moore faction is the reason Bush is still in the Whitehouse. It's the Democrat party that's ignorant, or should I say stupid for allowing what was a vibrant party turn into a shrill, whining caricature. The good people of the Dem party, Lieberman, Miller, Bayh, have no seat at the table.

I give my heartfelt thanks to George Soros, MoveOn, Michael Moore, Danny Glover, Ben Afleck and so on for energizing the right. There was a big turn-out-the-vote but unlike the conventional wisdom, it turned out to be the GOP that won the battle of turn out. It wasn't Limbaugh or Hannity or Liddy or Boortz that got the people out, it was the whining, snivelling people like Franken and Moore that did it.

And the payoff? The Dems will be out of power for at least another generation or until someone grabs the Dem leadership by the throat and slaps some sense into them. People like Terry McCauliffe have to be removed from positions of power if you ever want to see another Dem in the Whitehouse.

Remember, this is the first time since FDR that a President was reelected AND gained seats in both houses. There's a reason for it and it isn't because the right side of the aisle's inhabitants are ignorant...

David


Actually, David, I'm anything BUT ignorant. But yes, I do have an attitude and I'm ****ed off, because I LOVE my country-not any particular party-and I just witnessed an act of mass self-destruction that will hurt my country-these men don't care about the country or YOU, their only concern is to line the pockets of their "base".

I can agree with most of your first paragraph. The Dems have no balls and are shrill and annoying. This has been my feeling for many, many years. Which is why I dislike BOTH parties. However, based on the last four years, one party is worse for the country than the other, and will continue to bring us down. An $8 TRILLION deficit? C'mon-and you're happy because your "Man" remains in power to continue the damage? May as well sign your own death warrant.

You seem to be wearing some extra large blinders-you mention a couple movie stars who make an appearance every so often (and make fools of themselves in the process), and I think that in the shrillness, stupidity and ignorance category, they are put to shame by the likes of O'Reilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Ollie North, Jerry Falwell and the rest of the race-baiting, God-squad pandering crew.

Michael Moore did not make a difference in the election. You give him way too much credit. He's a shameless self-promoter, and even if most of the stuff in 9/11 is ACTUALLY TRUE, NO ONE who saw it was influenced to change their vote-the people who agree with him came out of the film still agreeing, and those who didn't remained opposed. No, the difference was the working people who don't have enough insight to see past the B.S. and spin of the Bush team. These are the people losing jobs and earning minimum wage at Wal-Mart (which contribued millions to Bush) and they don't know any better. They were the difference, and after 4 more years of failure, maybe even THEY will see the light and vote for a change.

Phil
11-04-2004, 08:43 PM
Hey Phil: Continue with that attitude...the ignorant thing. The fact that the Democrat party has be coopted by the MoveOn.Org/Michael Moore faction is the reason Bush is still in the Whitehouse. It's the Democrat party that's ignorant, or should I say stupid for allowing what was a vibrant party turn into a shrill, whining caricature. The good people of the Dem party, Lieberman, Miller, Bayh, have no seat at the table.

I give my heartfelt thanks to George Soros, MoveOn, Michael Moore, Danny Glover, Ben Afleck and so on for energizing the right. There was a big turn-out-the-vote but unlike the conventional wisdom, it turned out to be the GOP that won the battle of turn out. It wasn't Limbaugh or Hannity or Liddy or Boortz that got the people out, it was the whining, snivelling people like Franken and Moore that did it.

And the payoff? The Dems will be out of power for at least another generation or until someone grabs the Dem leadership by the throat and slaps some sense into them. People like Terry McCauliffe have to be removed from positions of power if you ever want to see another Dem in the Whitehouse.

Remember, this is the first time since FDR that a President was reelected AND gained seats in both houses. There's a reason for it and it isn't because the right side of the aisle's inhabitants are ignorant...

David


Actually, David, I'm anything BUT ignorant. But yes, I do have an attitude and I'm ****ed off, because I LOVE my country-not any particular party-and I just witnessed an act of mass self-destruction that will hurt my country-these men don't care about the country or YOU, their only concern is to line the pockets of their "base".

I can agree with most of your first paragraph. The Dems have no balls and are shrill and annoying. This has been my feeling for many, many years. Which is why I dislike BOTH parties. However, based on the last four years, one party is worse for the country than the other, and will continue to bring us down. An $8 TRILLION deficit? C'mon-and you're happy because your "Man" remains in power to continue the damage? May as well sign your own death warrant.

You seem to be wearing some extra large blinders-you mention a couple movie stars who make an appearance every so often (and make fools of themselves in the process), and I think that in the shrillness, stupidity and ignorance category, they are put to shame by the likes of O'Reilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Ollie North, Jerry Falwell and the rest of the race-baiting, God-squad pandering crew.

Michael Moore did not make a difference in the election. You give him way too much credit. He's a shameless self-promoter, and even if most of the stuff in 9/11 is ACTUALLY TRUE, NO ONE who saw it was influenced to change their vote-the people who agree with him came out of the film still agreeing, and those who didn't remained opposed. No, the difference was the working people who don't have enough insight to see past the B.S. and spin of the Bush team. These are the people losing jobs and earning minimum wage at Wal-Mart (which contribued millions to Bush) and they don't know any better. They were the difference, and after 4 more years of failure, maybe even THEY will see the light and vote for a change.

Phil
11-04-2004, 08:44 PM
Hey Phil: Continue with that attitude...the ignorant thing. The fact that the Democrat party has be coopted by the MoveOn.Org/Michael Moore faction is the reason Bush is still in the Whitehouse. It's the Democrat party that's ignorant, or should I say stupid for allowing what was a vibrant party turn into a shrill, whining caricature. The good people of the Dem party, Lieberman, Miller, Bayh, have no seat at the table.

I give my heartfelt thanks to George Soros, MoveOn, Michael Moore, Danny Glover, Ben Afleck and so on for energizing the right. There was a big turn-out-the-vote but unlike the conventional wisdom, it turned out to be the GOP that won the battle of turn out. It wasn't Limbaugh or Hannity or Liddy or Boortz that got the people out, it was the whining, snivelling people like Franken and Moore that did it.

And the payoff? The Dems will be out of power for at least another generation or until someone grabs the Dem leadership by the throat and slaps some sense into them. People like Terry McCauliffe have to be removed from positions of power if you ever want to see another Dem in the Whitehouse.

Remember, this is the first time since FDR that a President was reelected AND gained seats in both houses. There's a reason for it and it isn't because the right side of the aisle's inhabitants are ignorant...

David


Actually, David, I'm anything BUT ignorant. But yes, I do have an attitude and I'm ****ed off, because I LOVE my country-not any particular party-and I just witnessed an act of mass self-destruction that will hurt my country-these men don't care about the country or YOU, their only concern is to line the pockets of their "base".

I can agree with most of your first paragraph. The Dems have no balls and are shrill and annoying. This has been my feeling for many, many years. Which is why I dislike BOTH parties. However, based on the last four years, one party is worse for the country than the other, and will continue to bring us down. An $8 TRILLION deficit? C'mon-and you're happy because your "Man" remains in power to continue the damage? May as well sign your own death warrant.

You seem to be wearing some extra large blinders-you mention a couple movie stars who make an appearance every so often (and make fools of themselves in the process), and I think that in the shrillness, stupidity and ignorance category, they are put to shame by the likes of O'Reilly, Coulter, Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Ollie North, Jerry Falwell and the rest of the race-baiting, God-squad pandering crew.

Michael Moore did not make a difference in the election. You give him way too much credit. He's a shameless self-promoter, and even if most of the stuff in 9/11 is ACTUALLY TRUE, NO ONE who saw it was influenced to change their vote-the people who agree with him came out of the film still agreeing, and those who didn't remained opposed. No, the difference was the working people who don't have enough insight to see past the B.S. and spin of the Bush team. These are the people losing jobs and earning minimum wage at Wal-Mart (which contribued millions to Bush) and they don't know any better. They were the difference, and after 4 more years of failure, maybe even THEY will see the light and vote for a change.

Phil
11-04-2004, 08:48 PM
AAAA wrote:

Phil, Judging by Deuce's post about baseball in the 'baseball is silly' thread, Deuce's country is also your country.

AAA - Deuce is a resident of our neighbor to the north, and as you may know, baseball is also a very popular sport there. He did, in fact, write passionately about baseball and I enjoyed it. This is a mite bit different subject, though.

Jonas
11-05-2004, 06:29 AM
The great thing about our country is that you CAN have your own opinion. Fortunately over 50% of the country respectfully DIS-AGREES with Phil. I do have a constructive suggestion...Phil, if you do love your country, which i believe you do, you should take some time to let your wounds heal and once the bitterness has subsided get behind our President. Continuing to trash his administration is not going to bring Kerry back from the dead. Taking off my partisan cap for a minute, I do hope the Democratic party can find a respectable candidate for '08. Like it our not, this is a CONSERVATIVE COUNTRY. Not only taking into account the red/blue outlook of the states, but if you've seen a county to county breakdown it is shockingly conservative. I am sure the party has taken note of that and will start trying to move a little more to the center. i.e. not having Michael Moore sitting in the seat of honor at thier next convention.

AAAA
11-05-2004, 06:37 AM
I didn't realise he was from Canada though I should have realised it when you made the Royal Canadian Mounted Police reference but I missed that too. By the way, nice thread. The 'war on terror' is less difficult to rage when many countries are co-operating towards that aim but the current approach is not gaining much support.

Phil
11-05-2004, 07:02 AM
Jonas:

The great thing about our country is that you CAN have your own opinion. Fortunately over 50% of the country respectfully DIS-AGREES with Phil. I do have a constructive suggestion...Phil, if you do love your country, which i believe you do, you should take some time to let your wounds heal and once the bitterness has subsided get behind our President. Continuing to trash his administration is not going to bring Kerry back from the dead. Taking off my partisan cap for a minute, I do hope the Democratic party can find a respectable candidate for '08. Like it our not, this is a CONSERVATIVE COUNTRY. Not only taking into account the red/blue outlook of the states, but if you've seen a county to county breakdown it is shockingly conservative. I am sure the party has taken note of that and will start trying to move a little more to the center. i.e. not having Michael Moore sitting in the seat of honor at thier next convention.

Jonas - You're right about the Democratic party-they are weak, divided and constantly squabbling, and although they rip the Repubs to shreds with their platform, they have no way to present it, in a "value-laden" package to the unwashed masses, as the Republicans do. Rove ran a brilliant campaign, skirting the real issues and showering the electorate with shallow-but-emotional platitudes. Of COURSE they have to move to center, but Kerry's platform was not as different from Bush's than you might think. The difference was, Bush, a rich, silver spoon boy from an Eastern Elite family knows how to slap backs and play the God card. Kerry, another rich Eastern Elite boy, did not.

I am not "wounded"; I am pi-s-s ed off. There's a difference. How can "we" get behind a president who wants to corrupt the Constitution with non-issues like gay marriage and flag burning as diversionary tactics, so no one will notice that the country is going bankrupt? How do we get behind a group of people who are not much different in their religious fervor and ideological zeal then our ENEMIES? Billions in tax cuts for the wealthiest 5% and nothing but pain for the lower income groups, who, if they're "Christian" STILL voted for the guy who's going to make their lives even more miserable. I will continue to "trash" this administration until it succeeds in doing something right, or until it's out of office. More failure and incompetence will, hopefully, bring an end to all these conservative plans in 2006 when congress and many senate seats change hands. Remember the "Gingrich Revolution"? That lasted for 2 years, and then Newt was gone. History will repeat itself.

Jonas
11-05-2004, 07:20 AM
Phil, Bush does not "play the God card" He is a Born Again Christian.
The issue with G A Y marriage is not just opposed by Bush. I hate to keep bringing it up, but this was beaten by the American people as well. How can you say that "the group of people" has the same religious fervor and idealogical zeal as our enemies"? You need to take a look at the past 3 years and re-think that statement. I don't remember any of the Christians flying planes into buildings.
Even though it wasn't long ago, we live in very different times than that of the Gingrich Rev. The Democrats have a lot, and I mean a lot of restructering to do if they want to even think about competing in this conservative society. The people have spoken, and they are overwhelmingly not liberal. I believe this has been a good experience for the Dems and will be Great for our country. Of course we can just agree to dis-agree.

Phil
11-05-2004, 07:54 AM
Yes, I expected the "flying planes into buildings" comment; you're as predictable as the rest of your bretheren. No, our fellow countrymen are generally not mass murderers, but many of the fire breathing speicies DO exhibit similarities with the ayatollahs. Religious-based intolerance against diversity and other religions, a rush to arbitrarily label and demonize their opponents ("liberalism" is the new Communism), h o m o phobic, preference for using force rather than diplomacy, an arrogant feeling of moral superiority based on a following the only "real" religion, demonization of enemies (e.g. Gen. Jerry Boykin's characterizations of Muslims and the WoT as a war against "Satan"), a willingness to send others to their deaths (our military) for a "crusade" (as Bush called it a couple times-Freudian slip), etc. etc. No, I don't need to re-think my statement. The founding fathers believed strongly in separation of church and state as a foundation of America. All I can do is sit back and watch the coming assault by the American Taliban as they try to trample this fundumental and GUIDING PRINCIPLE into the dust and take our country from greatness to trailer park slip-covers-on-the-couch mediocrity. Hopefully, it will fail, just as the Taliban did-by trying to go too far too fast.

Don't forget, 48% of the voters think W is full of shiat. Your majority is not as big as you think. It's a lot more complicated than your "We're a conservative country." Not everyone who voted for Bush are hard core holly rollers, and neither are all Kerry supporters tree-humping Commie libs. Some of us did not vote for a party, or even a man, but to reverse the downward trend in which our country is going, economically and in terms of international influence. You don't reward failure with 4 more years.

You may want to see America turned into one large, anti-g a y, anti-minority trailer park, stretching from Ohio to Nevada, but there are many Americans-48% of those who voted and many of the 80 million who DIDN'T vote, who probably won't allow it happen.

Sacco
11-05-2004, 08:07 AM
Jerk-off,

Every assumtion you make about me is wrong. You're an idiot, but the difference between you and me is that I do say the same comments I say here face to face with a person. But maybe you do to. Let's see. Speaking the truth is important; going around and baiting other people is just immature. Are you twelve? Can twelve year olds get married where you live? I try to be non-violent always, but its hard sometimes. You prance around trying to fool people with your wife, how stupid are you? I speak honestly, though often from anger, but I can back it up and do.

Where do you live, jerk? I'm in the Syracuse area of New York. Want to meet up face to face and discuss this like over a tennis match?

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 08:08 AM
Yes, I expected the "flying planes into buildings" comment; you're as predictable as the rest of your bretheren. No, our fellow countrymen are generally not mass murderers, but many of the fire breathing speicies DO exhibit similarities with the ayatollahs. Religious-based intolerance against diversity and other religions, a rush to arbitrarily label and demonize their opponents ("liberalism" is the new Communism), h o m o phobic, preference for using force rather than diplomacy, an arrogant feeling of moral superiority based on a following the only "real" religion, demonization of enemies (e.g. Gen. Jerry Boykin's characterizations of Muslims and the WoT as a war against "Satan"), a willingness to send others to their deaths (our military) for a "crusade" (as Bush called it a couple times-Freudian slip), etc. etc. No, I don't need to re-think my statement. The founding fathers believed strongly in separation of church and state as a foundation of America. All I can do is sit back and watch the coming assault by the American Taliban as they try to trample this fundumental and GUIDING PRINCIPLE into the dust and take our country from greatness to trailer park slip-covers-on-the-couch mediocrity. Hopefully, it will fail, just as the Taliban did-by trying to go too far too fast.

Don't forget, 48% of the voters think W is full of shiat. Your majority is not as big as you think. It's a lot more complicated than your "We're a conservative country." Not everyone who voted for Bush are hard core holly rollers, and neither are all Kerry supporters tree-humping Commie libs. Some of us did not vote for a party, or even a man, but to reverse the downward trend in which our country is going, economically and in terms of international influence. You don't reward failure with 4 more years.

You may want to see America turned into one large, anti-g a y, anti-minority trailer park, stretching from Ohio to Nevada, but there are many Americans-48% of those who voted and many of the 80 million who DIDN'T vote, who probably won't allow it happen.

How many negative references to trailer parks can Phil fit into one post? Exactly the same "I'm smarter than you, and make more money too" garbage that you and your type love to spout.

Yes, you should have expected the "flying planes into buildings" comment. There is a HUGE difference between religious fervor (on the part of any faith) and the desire to wipe anyone different than you off the face of the planet. Christians don't want to kill g@ys. We love g@ys, but despise the sin. (yes...being g@y is a sin...like it or not. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve)

Phil
11-05-2004, 08:13 AM
Christians don't want to kill g@ys. We love g@ys, but despise the sin.

ChrisNC,

Yeah, ...whatever.

The tennis guy
11-05-2004, 08:27 AM
Gosh,

Again, this country is going downhill. Both Republicans and Democrats are bitterly fighting over the social and culture issues while our country's financial situation is headed toward bankrupcy.

This country is living on credit card. In addition to the debt each family accumulated itself in the last 4 years, the government accumulate another average $16,000 per family in last 4 years alone. Someone is going to pay it. In the past, the government borrowed money from US citizens. Since US citizen don't save money anymore, now Japan and China have become our biggest creditors. China has replaced US as the country received most foreign investment. We don't save enough money investing in our own country, with foreign investment down in this country, plus the huge deficit and debt, we are heading down pretty fast.

If Bush just tries to solve tax and social security in the next four years, I support him - but I doubt he will just focus on those two. If he continues to spend the money we don't have, continue to push this country fighting on culture and social issues, unfortunately people will wake up one day after he leaves office wondering what happenned to this country economically? I hope people save enough money today for 10-15 years later. Otherwise, you will be faced with rude awakenning in 10-15 years!

What this country has become? The serious voice and concern for this country has been completely drown by the partisan fight.

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 08:29 AM
Christians don't want to kill g@ys. We love g@ys, but despise the sin.

ChrisNC,

Yeah, ...whatever.

Great argument. I'm convinced. </sarcasm>

The fact remains that when Jesus walked this earth, he showed love and compassion to sinners, but pulled no punches when it came to telling them they were walking down the wrong path.

Phil
11-05-2004, 08:35 AM
Save it for church, Chris. I'm not going to debate theology.

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 08:41 AM
Save it for church, Chris. I'm not going to debate theology.
You're the one who started the "debate" by implying that fervent Christians weren't much different than the people who attacked us. You avoid these debates with me like the plague, and with good cause. You're wrong. If you want to avoid me replying to your posts with my "religious zeal", then keep your comments on Christianity to yourself. Stick to commenting on tennis, and all will be well.

Sacco
11-05-2004, 08:49 AM
Here’s an article by Greg Palast, talking about Ohio and New Mexico, called 'Kerry Won':
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110504V.shtml

As a poll monitor in Youngstown, Ohio-- I can say from experience that many things went wrong in the voting, Ohio law, and with the electronic machines. Make your own conclusions, but something is fundamentally wrong with needing a result in one day or two days, and not being able to wait and insure ALL the votes are counted, and re-counted as the case might be, even if its ONLY to insure every person who stood in line up to 4 hours gets there vote added.

Elections should not be like be drive-thru window at a fast-food joint, but like a reservation at this countries best restaurant.

Savour the results, don't choke on them.

Jonas
11-05-2004, 08:58 AM
Phil, your secular views have clouded your judgement. I am not going to debate you over your faith or lack of it.
In your last paragraph you said something like this. You may want to turn the US into an anti-gay, anti-minority trailer park.
I believe I can speak for myself. I AM anti-gay (again as the majority of the country is) However, I am NOT ant-minority. I don't quite understand the trailer-park reference and it's relevance to the discussion. I do not make a million dollars a year, but I do live a very comfortable life I.E. summer home etc. I don't understand how you don't see the magnitude of this defeat. I know the margin could have been greater, but again, look at the state by state breakdown. It is even more conservative if you look at it county by county. You seem like a smart guy, but i am beginning to re-think that position.

007
11-05-2004, 08:58 AM
leave Canada out of this .... we love our country just the way it is: hockey, 3-down football, damn good beer, the Commonwealth, heli-skiing in BC, universal health care, legalized pot, racial harmony, two 'official' languages, and Rush.

@wright
11-05-2004, 09:06 AM
007, I agree with everything you said, well maybe just the Rush part! Phil, as always, you make irrelevant arguments that don't even touch on the major argument. How asinine of you.

Phil
11-05-2004, 09:25 AM
You're the one who started the "debate" by implying that fervent Christians weren't much different than the people who attacked us. You avoid these debates with me like the plague, and with good cause. You're wrong. If you want to avoid me replying to your posts with my "religious zeal", then keep your comments on Christianity to yourself. Stick to commenting on tennis, and all will be well.


Chris - I don't recall "avoiding a debate" with you. Ever. That's probably because I didn't, or else whatever it was that you were discussing wasn't worth my remembering.

I am not "wrong", but see, that's the flaw in religious fundumentalism-everyone BUT the zealots are "wrong". Actually I'd be a lot more concerned, and maybe even insulted if you and I actually agreed on something substantial. But I never said that you're WRONG-just that I don't agree with you. Your statements alone are enough to for most people to make a decision on your position. I'm not going to debate the bible. Sorry-I respect it as a religious work, but it has no place, for me, in the formation of US domestic and foreign policy. Being governed by people who firmly believe in the Apocalypse, and possibly, may even wish to expedite it because they've been "choosen" to do so, is a scary proposition. As I said, save it for church.

Phil
11-05-2004, 09:30 AM
@wright - Another comment that adds nothing-I'm this or that, but you really have NOTHING to say. You aren't funny when you try to be, and you aren't very bright when you're serious.

Jonas
11-05-2004, 09:51 AM
Totally off topic, but the final results are in from Iowa which Bush carried. Bush 286 EC Votes Kerry 252! Terry Mcoullough, "YOu've got some 'splainin to do :)

Phil
11-05-2004, 09:56 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041105/ap_on_el_pr/voting_problems

Why is it that in both elections, the key battleground states-FL in 2000 and Ohio in 2004, are where the hanky panky stuff occured? Is this a COINCEDENCE? Bush's people cheated again-there's a lot more to Ohio then we know, or will probably ever know. Like a banana republic...

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 09:56 AM
Chris - I don't recall "avoiding a debate" with you. Ever. That's probably because I didn't, or else whatever it was that you were discussing wasn't worth my remembering.
OK, I looked...the conversation I was thinking of was not with you. It was with another "nothing Christian can be true" individual, although we have had our run-ins.

I am not "wrong", but see, that's the flaw in religious fundumentalism-everyone BUT the zealots are "wrong". Actually I'd be a lot more concerned, and maybe even insulted if you and I actually agreed on something substantial.
Unfortunately, that's a fundamental "problem" with the truth.

Being governed by people who firmly believe in the Apocalypse, and possibly, may even wish to expedite it because they've been "choosen" to do so, is a scary proposition. As I said, save it for church.
Wow! That's truly sad that you think that way.

Sorry, but I can't "save it for church." The truth of Christ cannot and should not be contained within four walls. And, as I said, as long as you make posts with such judgements on Christianity, I will continue to be there to reply.

Phil
11-05-2004, 10:02 AM
Yes, Chris, you'll be there to reply with biblical quotes but not with substantial information/arguments to counter what I or anyone else says. Quoting the Bible in a political discussion is a cop out-a screen for your ignorance on the issues. Yes, the Bible has an answer to everything. You can say that, but it's another cop out. Even religious people-the smart ones-can come up with non-biblical responses once in awhile. I've heard preists and bishops debate the issues as well as anyone, without making a sermon out of it. You're obviously out of your league here if your only frame of reference is the Bible, which, I think is true.

@wright
11-05-2004, 10:09 AM
"Bush's people cheated again"

More unsupported statements from Phil and his bag of speculation. You're only proving what an *** you are by passing off falsehoods as the truth. Tell us the truth, you are really Michael Moore's cabana boy aren't you?

david aames
11-05-2004, 10:26 AM
He provided a link to an AP report. How is that speculation?
Last time I checked, the AP was a respected and non partisan news organisation. Or do you want to put a fatwah on them too?

More unsupported statements from Phil and his bag of speculation. You're only proving what an *** you are by passing off falsehoods as the truth.

Gatsby007
11-05-2004, 11:01 AM
You guys have got to be kidding. I am humiliated for you all.
I know this is childish, but the best thing about these threads is this. You can make tottaly incoherant statements like this:
Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb, Mary had a little lamb, his fleece was white as snow. Then at the end just say Bush won big you losers, and you have won the debate.
THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

NoBadMojo
11-05-2004, 11:03 AM
just as people really dont know what 'really' happened in the florida and ohio elections (or they are not saying), we dont 'really' know what 'really' goes on behind the scenes in the evil mind of the Bush and his buddies..people only know parts of the story..it's too chilling to even fathom, but i think you would have your head up your butt if you didnt know there are lots of weaknesses in the integrity of our voting process. most people are good enough to not go to the darkside and given a choice would rather believe than disbelieve, and that's what politicians/Bush take advantage of..that people really want to believe. just look at how far off the exit polls were in both ohio and florida...who really knows what really goes on...people should at least be aware though IMO and not vote for a person because he talks tough and acomplishes little that is good. and no i am not being a cynic..i am being a realist. i dont like phil at all, not that phil would care, but every once in a while there is some semblance of truth to what he spews forth, as there is with many people.

Jonas
11-05-2004, 11:11 AM
NoBadMojo: I didn't know you were such a leftist and would have never taken you for someone of such suspect intelect. I kind of feel about you the same way i felt when I saw Willie Mays start to lose it a bit in the 70's and finally get forced into retirement. If you supported Kerry, that's fine, but you need to get your information from somewhere other than moveon.org. You are a propoganda machine and i am really sorry to see it.

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 11:21 AM
Yes, Chris, you'll be there to reply with biblical quotes but not with substantial information/arguments to counter what I or anyone else says. Quoting the Bible in a political discussion is a cop out-a screen for your ignorance on the issues. Yes, the Bible has an answer to everything. You can say that, but it's another cop out. Even religious people-the smart ones-can come up with non-biblical responses once in awhile. I've heard preists and bishops debate the issues as well as anyone, without making a sermon out of it. You're obviously out of your league here if your only frame of reference is the Bible, which, I think is true.
That's funny. I challenge you to find one place that I've quoted the Bible. I'm not the one avoiding the issues, but I do believe I'm out of my league when arguing with you...way below it. This whole thing started because instead of coming up with something of value to add, you decided to throw around an anti-christianity comment. I've been more than willing to challenge the issues with "non-biblical" arguments. Take a look through my past posts for my argument against abortion if you'd like. While I definitely mix in statements of faith, I don't shy away from the facts.

NoBadMojo
11-05-2004, 11:24 AM
i dont support kerry jonas and i dont even know what moveon.org is...i am only an observor of what is going on. i watch and listen..i observe and can assemble the pieces rather than making blind faith assumptions...bush did a terible job and all evidence supports this..that is all i have said. i also said that michael moore is smart and funny. and for saying this i get called a leftist, an extremest, and idiot, stupid, and a myriad of other bad things...it's really pretty funny and you people should be ashamed of yourselves..i should have expected this because i also get insulted for posting certain things that are very true about tennis..do i know politics? nope..dont wish to, but am entitled to have opinions and dont appreciate being insulted..that only serves to reveal the true nature of the people insulting me. i've been disrespectful to none except for Bush. do i know tennis? yes..realy well, and now poeple dont think i know tennis just because i think bush has done a pathetic job....this is really funny, but sad, and i will no longer subject myself to the awful behaviour of others so i am out.

ChrisNC
11-05-2004, 11:31 AM
He provided a link to an AP report. How is that speculation?
Last time I checked, the AP was a respected and non partisan news organisation. Or do you want to put a fatwah on them too?

More unsupported statements from Phil and his bag of speculation. You're only proving what an *** you are by passing off falsehoods as the truth.

If you read the article, it actually states there were several issues with various voting machines in various states. In some instances, votes were lost because the people running the machines thought they could store more data than they could. I'd hardly call that fraud...incompetence maybe, but not fraud.

ty slothrop
11-05-2004, 12:28 PM
longtime listener, first time caller

man, i wonder what kind of correlation exists on this board between between the folks who think serena williams is fat and and the numb-nut, "christ is the truth, bring on the apocalypse," *****birds who embrace bush

maybe we could call it the ohio quotient?

David Pavlich
11-05-2004, 01:18 PM
Phil,

If you believe that I called you ignorant, I apologize for leaving that impression. The ignorant moniker is meant for the Democrat party and its leadership, or lack thereof.

It's not Moore himself that made the difference but the fact that the Dem party has been taken over by his type of cretins. It's the reason the Dems got Kerry as a candidate. He had NOTHING to run on except his 4 months in Vietnam. He did virtually nothing as a Senator. There are a lot of good people that are Dems but because they aren't on the far left of the party, they get no attention from the nominating "gurus" of the party.

The economics thing...there are a lot of economists out there that will tell you that the debt is bad but it's not going to sink a country that has a 10 trillion dollar a year economy. The economic growth of the past year has been the best in 20 years. It will now continue to grow.

Bush pushed a tax cut through for those that PAY taxes and lowered the bottom rate which removed another 5 million from the tax rolls. Most economists will tell you, some grudgingly, that the tax cuts are what made the recession as short as it was.

Anyway, the world's not going to come to an end. I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected, the Left was convinced that it would only be a matter of time before he pushed the button and brought us to Armagedon. It didn't happen. And the Soviets are on the ash heap of history.

David

Sacco
11-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Check this out:

"Machine Error Gives Bush Extra Ohio Votes"



http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604W.shtml

Stuff like this was happening in Youngstown too. At 11o'clock we unoffically counted over 250 go in to vote, the offical vote count at that time was 83.

Deuce
11-05-2004, 10:07 PM
ChrisNC wrote:
"The fact remains that when Jesus walked this earth, he showed love and compassion to sinners, but pulled no punches when it came to telling them they were walking down the wrong path."

Chris - I've read Jesus' supposed words. I've read others' opinions of Jesus... YOU are not Jesus. That you align your behavior with his is arrogant and insulting.

Quite typically, the Christians exclaim 'Though shalt not judge', and then proceed to assess everyone who is not just like them as being very wrong and very bad.

As an old philosopher once told me, "Religion and politics are bedfellows." If only they stuck to screwing each other exclusively...

As for the rest of you - on both sides - the maturity level of this thread is beyond juvenile. So strong are the biases that they entirely prevent any communication at all.

People on both sides ought to watch the documentary entitled 'The World According to Bush'. These are the thoughts of people who have far, far more very direct political experience than all of us combined. Their voices are very significant.

Phil
11-05-2004, 10:40 PM
Phil,

If you believe that I called you ignorant, I apologize for leaving that impression. The ignorant moniker is meant for the Democrat party and its leadership, or lack thereof.

It's not Moore himself that made the difference but the fact that the Dem party has been taken over by his type of cretins. It's the reason the Dems got Kerry as a candidate. He had NOTHING to run on except his 4 months in Vietnam. He did virtually nothing as a Senator. There are a lot of good people that are Dems but because they aren't on the far left of the party, they get no attention from the nominating "gurus" of the party.

The economics thing...there are a lot of economists out there that will tell you that the debt is bad but it's not going to sink a country that has a 10 trillion dollar a year economy. The economic growth of the past year has been the best in 20 years. It will now continue to grow.

Bush pushed a tax cut through for those that PAY taxes and lowered the bottom rate which removed another 5 million from the tax rolls. Most economists will tell you, some grudgingly, that the tax cuts are what made the recession as short as it was.

Anyway, the world's not going to come to an end. I remember when Ronald Reagan was elected, the Left was convinced that it would only be a matter of time before he pushed the button and brought us to Armagedon. It didn't happen. And the Soviets are on the ash heap of history.

David


It wasn't an impression-NOW you're calling me ignorant, or illiterate Read your post. Anyway, regardless of what you meant, I'm basically immune to that kind of stuff-call my second serve crap and MAYBE you'll get a rise out of me.

Michael Moore is a self-serving entertainer-but you guys insist that he had a large impact on the election and also blame him for everything that goes on in the world. So now it was HIS positions that influenced the Dem. party's swing "left"? The Rebubs need a demon, even if it's the wrong one, and Moore seems to be your new Clinton. If the economy goes south, as it's doing-somehow, blame Moore for it. And the party is NOT being co-opted by Moore-ites. It is, in fact, fairly center-based. Ted Kennedy is an anachronism and Kerry, whatever his Congressional voting record, presented quite a middle of the road platform. What part of his platform was so "leftist" to you?

We cannot continue to prosecute a war-in fact, TWO wars AND cut taxes and expect to continue growing. ANY economist will tell you that eventually that will bleed the country, just as Vietnam did (when taxes weren't raised...but they weren't CUT either). Yes, our economy is resiliant and very big, but HOW MUCH can it take without repair? The dollar is falling even more, and China and the EU have reacted. Foreigners are buying up paper, but eventually, the US will become a bad investment risk. Job growth is terrible and salaries/spending power is DOWN. How can consumers spend, spend, spend and keep the economy afloat as they're expected to do if their real income is shrinking? Really, David, how LONG should we go down this road before it blows up in our faces and we run into a REAL recession with 15-20% unemployment? But that's boring stuff when there are much, much more "important" issues, like shoving prayer in schools and religious-inspired consititutional amendments down our throats.

David Pavlich
11-06-2004, 09:36 AM
Phil,

It's no wonder you're so depressed about this election. Let's see, you said job growth is terrible (337,000 new jobs in October, hmmmm). Doesn't sound too bad to me. Are you aware that unemployment is LOWER than when Bill Clinton was reelected? As a matter of fact, it's lower than the average of 70's, 80's and 90's. As I said before the growth of the economy for the past year has been the best in 20years. The week ending 11/5/04 was the best week on Wall Street since March of 2003. How can that be viewed as bad new?

I think you being a bit dramatic about the Constitutional Amendments. Abortion is not going to become illegal, Christianity is not going to become the state religion and conscription into the military isn't going to happen.

Again, there were those that were sure that Reagan was going to push the button. Russia is now Russia instead of the USSR. All I'm saying is that drastic change won't happen.

There is one thing I hope the President gets pushed through and that's MAJOR tax reform. Not this nibling at the edges balogna...real reform. If he can do this, you'll see economic growth like you've never seen.

David

The tennis guy
11-06-2004, 10:18 AM
Phil,

The economics thing...there are a lot of economists out there that will tell you that the debt is bad but it's not going to sink a country that has a 10 trillion dollar a year economy. The economic growth of the past year has been the best in 20 years. It will now continue to grow.

Bush pushed a tax cut through for those that PAY taxes and lowered the bottom rate which removed another 5 million from the tax rolls. Most economists will tell you, some grudgingly, that the tax cuts are what made the recession as short as it was.


David

There are a lot of partisan economists just like people on this board - they want to spin for their own candidates. Look at independent thinking economists, what they say. Yes, our economy is growing, but at what rate? 3-4%. Our debt currently is $7.4 trillion will soon be raised to $8.1 trillion. Our GDP is $11 trillion. How much our debt grew in the last 3 years? 16%! Guess what, the interest we pay on the debt alone is more than 3-4%. Soon, we'll have more debt than we produce. Someone is going to pay!!! Everyone in this country.

You probably confused deficit with debt. Our deficit itself isn't big relatively to GDP, less than 5%. However, our debt is 70% of our GDP. We are in more debt than the number show because we currently borrow from social security tax the government are taking in now. 10-15 years from now, we can't borrow those money anymore because of the baby boomer retirement.

I am fine with tax cut. But in our current economic condition, it has to be offset by cut in spending. The president and the congress have done none of the cutting spending - I am not saying Democrats will. If we are in Iraq for another 5 years with $100 billion per year, we are headed to bankrupcy quicked than we thought.

The problem in this country is everyone is so preoccupied with partisan fight, few are focusing on the real long-term economic problem in this country. Jobs and unemployment on the conomic front dominated this campaign. Those are only short term problem which will change sooner or later. We have severe long-term economic problem no one is addressing it now.

The moderate from both party are replaced by partisan from both sides. We are screwed big time!

AAAA
11-06-2004, 05:01 PM
He provided a link to an AP report. How is that speculation?
Last time I checked, the AP was a respected and non partisan news organisation. Or do you want to put a fatwah on them too?

More unsupported statements from Phil and his bag of speculation. You're only proving what an *** you are by passing off falsehoods as the truth.

It's the usual republican trick of labelling any news source they don't like as either liberal, communist or propaganda. It's a very effective way to influence what news the millions of sheep will read.

AAAA
11-06-2004, 05:12 PM
Save it for church, Chris. I'm not going to debate theology.
You're the one who started the "debate" by implying that fervent Christians weren't much different than the people who attacked us. You avoid these debates with me like the plague, and with good cause. You're wrong. If you want to avoid me replying to your posts with my "religious zeal", then keep your comments on Christianity to yourself. Stick to commenting on tennis, and all will be well.

One similarity they share is an unshakable belief in their beliefs even in the face of strong counter arguments.('religious zeal')

Gatsby007
11-06-2004, 06:06 PM
AAAA, I understand that you are bitter about the election and I feel your pain, but it's a known fact that the media was very anti-Bush (not pro-kerry) . This was discussed on CNN the other day and CBS. I don't think you would find too many reasonable democrats who would argue with that statement.
Also, the unshakable beliefs comment in the post above would have been a good strategy for John Kerry to have applied. Instead he went with the "Flipper the Dolphin routine and it got him crushed. Hey, cheer up 2016 is not that far from now.

mlee2
11-06-2004, 06:06 PM
This is why the media is 'liberal.'

http://graphics.ctyme.com/gif/rright.gif

The whole definition of what a 'Republican' is, has changed, to appeal to the masses.

Gatsby007
11-06-2004, 06:21 PM
MLEE2, I respect the fact that you acknowledge that the media is very slanted to the left. I don't know if i agree with the religious right cartoon running the Repub. party. This election as you know came down to morals and values were there were a lot of democrats who voted on moral issues. In the conservative counrty that we all now live in supporting G A Y marriage, partial birth abortion (or regular abortion) and the "look down your nose at religion" stances will not put a lefty candidate in the Big House for a long, long time to come. I suspect that the party will adhere big time to the new laws of the land and contend fairly in '02 and '04 (hopefully)?

thejerk
11-07-2004, 11:54 AM
Where is the outrage when every single year democrat candidates go into churches. Never mind. Why would you have outrage about that? You know Kerry, Clinton, and Gore were lying(pandering). I think what you hate about Bush is that he is not lying. You see real faith and call it "hollier than thou." The fear you have of people with firm beliefs is quite telling.

Phil
11-07-2004, 05:25 PM
Phil,

It's no wonder you're so depressed about this election. Let's see, you said job growth is terrible (337,000 new jobs in October, hmmmm). Doesn't sound too bad to me. Are you aware that unemployment is LOWER than when Bill Clinton was reelected? As a matter of fact, it's lower than the average of 70's, 80's and 90's. As I said before the growth of the economy for the past year has been the best in 20years. The week ending 11/5/04 was the best week on Wall Street since March of 2003. How can that be viewed as bad new?

I think you being a bit dramatic about the Constitutional Amendments. Abortion is not going to become illegal, Christianity is not going to become the state religion and conscription into the military isn't going to happen.

Again, there were those that were sure that Reagan was going to push the button. Russia is now Russia instead of the USSR. All I'm saying is that drastic change won't happen.

There is one thing I hope the President gets pushed through and that's MAJOR tax reform. Not this nibling at the edges balogna...real reform. If he can do this, you'll see economic growth like you've never seen.

David


David - You're talking job growth in OCTOBER. That's one month out of 4 years in which there was a net loss! And many of those JOBS are of the lower paying entry level type. Real income and purchasing power are dropping like a stone. And these days you cannot EVEN use Wall Street as a barometer of economic health-the market is inconsistant-it rises and drops with the wind; the week before last, it was bad, now its "good". It doesn't matter so much any more. If you go out there and actually TALK to people rather than listening to the President's hogwash spin, you will realize that the economy is NOT strong, and skilled jobs are harder to come by. More jobs opening at Wal-Mart, which pays minimum wage, almost no benefits, locks its night shift employees into the stores and destroys any unionization efforts, is hardly what I would call a "boom". But economics is the highest form of b.s.-anyone can, even in the worst of times, spin a good story. I think you're from the Paul Harvey school of economics-you know, that senile old coot who pushes the Bush agenda from his radio pulpit.

You may not believe this, but I HOPE you are right about the health of the economy. I HOPE the Republicans-again-fail to pollute the Constitution and roll back the separation of church and state. I hope that the War in Iraq IS won/resolved. But, I don't see anything being done on any of those fronts, and I don't believe in false hope. I don't think the amendments will go through, though-there actually ARE a few repubs with the cojones to oppose this. I'm not so sure, though, about the continued interference in other people's personal lives. They'll certainly try to impose a moral code, based on a brand of religion that over half the country doesn't share.

mlee2
11-08-2004, 04:13 AM
I'm for tax reform as well, David, but Bush's version would hardly benefit America as a whole.

He has given tax benefits to huge corporations (most of which outsource their labor). I know the purpose of these benefits is to prevent unfair 'double taxing in two countries' but I hardly doubt most Americans will feel pity for these multinational corporations.

Of course, I'm a stereotypical 'cynic liberal' but I'll throw a bone.

MAYBE Bush actually does have America in mind, thinking huge American companies like Walmart and GM will carry America through the best and worst of times, therefore deserving of a tax break.

But that hardly's been the case as Walmart (in 2003) has been the No.1 importer of goods from China, accounting for tens of billions of dollars pumped into the CHINESE economy, not the American one. And Bush to this day, STILL insists on giving them more breaks. These tax benefits go to about 4 or 5 people in the Walton family while the rest of WalMart shareholders get crumbs off their plates.

I fully realize American comfort, economy, and lifestyle is on the backs and exploitation of poorer countries. I can't change it, but I'll grudgingly accept it. It's one of those sincerely GRATEFUL perks to being an American that so many people forget.

However, I realize America's policy makers have the responsibilty of maintaining that standard of American living, but the tax benefits have benfitted very few of the upper class, and benefitted outside economies (a small side effect to filling the coffers of the Walton family). Bush's economic team have clearly not done their job in terms of the tax code benefitting America.
I have the sincerest hope that someday people will stop demonizing unions, save our livelyhoods, and play a pivotal role in raising wages in huge Wal-Mart like corporations.

David Pavlich
11-08-2004, 08:40 AM
mlee:

The tax reform that Bush authored gave tax relief to everyone that PAID taxes and it lowered the bottom rate to a point that removed 5 million people from the tax roles. How can you, with a straight face, say that Bush's tax cuts didn't help the American taxPAYER as a whole?

Outsourcing? How about if Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, BMW, et al decide that they don't want to outsource? You and your outsourcing haters will have a bunch of well paid auto workers really upset with you. But I suppose it's ok for other countries to outsource their work to the states.

sKerry wanted to increase taxes on those that earned more than $200,000. There's a lot of small businesses out there that report taxes for their business on their personal tax filing. I own such a business. What that means is that if my business earns $200,000, my taxes go up. That takes away revenue from me that I would normally plow back into my busines in the form of capital purchases, inventory, employees or my salary. How would that be good for business, especially SMALL business.

And the Walmart thing? Most people want the best price that they can get. Walmart supplies that. And it is VERY obvious that Walmart's philosophy works. I'm fortunate that my business is very specific, so about the only competition I get from Walmart is for cheap tennis balls and kid's frames.

I am hoping that the President follows through with his interest in the Fair Tax plan (retail sales tax). That would be a huge lift to the economy of this country. FYI, it's NOT a VAT (value added tax). Go to Fairtax.org to read about it.

David

The tennis guy
11-08-2004, 10:00 AM
High tax, high spending doesn't work for the economy. Lower tax, high spending Bush is promoting doesn't work either. Here is the result.


"The euro rose to a new record close to 1.30 dollars with analysts warning of gloomy prospects for the US currency as markets focus on the swelling US trade and budget deficits.

Dealers are worried about how the United States will attract the necessary capital inflows to fund the deteriorating trade balance and budget deficit. The fear is that overseas investors might lose confidence in the debt-ridden US economy, placing their money elsewhere. "

mlee2
11-08-2004, 03:35 PM
mlee:

Outsourcing? How about if Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, BMW, et al decide that they don't want to outsource? You and your outsourcing haters will have a bunch of well paid auto workers really upset with you. But I suppose it's ok for other countries to outsource their work to the states.


This is not an American outsourcing issue. This is an issue for Japan, Germany, etc. for to decide. I'm against AMERICAN outsourcing. Those companies are only here because we are the largest consumer market (by a HUGE margin) in the world. On behalf of America, I'm glad these jobs are here but....

You can't seriously suggest Bush can take credit for these jobs coming into America. This is the result of other countries' (in)actions doing nothing with their tax code and foriegn economic policy. If their people b*tch and moan, that's their problem with their leaders.

As an AMERICAN policymaker, Bush has the responsibility to protect AMERICAN jobs with AMERICAN companies. No one is expecting him to protect Toyota, BMW, etc. jobs because it's OUT of his hands.

If Americans (the market), all of a sudden, decided Toyotas, B***, etc. are piece of crap cars, (or decided not to buy them for whatever reason) then we're screwed.

We (and Bush) should not have our economy depend on the whim of foreign companies. We need to work on our own companies and trying to get them to stay here. They are the basis of our American economy. Toyota, BMW, et al. contribute crumbs to our American GDP and a lot more to their respective home countries.

David Pavlich
11-10-2004, 06:02 PM
mlee:

Outsourcing? How about if Mercedes, Honda, Toyota, BMW, et al decide that they don't want to outsource? You and your outsourcing haters will have a bunch of well paid auto workers really upset with you. But I suppose it's ok for other countries to outsource their work to the states.


This is not an American outsourcing issue. This is an issue for Japan, Germany, etc. for to decide. I'm against AMERICAN outsourcing. Those companies are only here because we are the largest consumer market (by a HUGE margin) in the world. On behalf of America, I'm glad these jobs are here but....

You can't seriously suggest Bush can take credit for these jobs coming into America. This is the result of other countries' (in)actions doing nothing with their tax code and foriegn economic policy. If their people b*tch and moan, that's their problem with their leaders.

As an AMERICAN policymaker, Bush has the responsibility to protect AMERICAN jobs with AMERICAN companies. No one is expecting him to protect Toyota, BMW, etc. jobs because it's OUT of his hands.

If Americans (the market), all of a sudden, decided Toyotas, B***, etc. are piece of crap cars, (or decided not to buy them for whatever reason) then we're screwed.

We (and Bush) should not have our economy depend on the whim of foreign companies. We need to work on our own companies and trying to get them to stay here. They are the basis of our American economy. Toyota, BMW, et al. contribute crumbs to our American GDP and a lot more to their respective home countries.

Nowhere in my post did I say that Bush had anything to do with the Germans and Japanese outsourcing their auto manufacturing to the states. My point is that these are outsourced jobs from another country. It's funny how, when this topic comes up, noone seems to want to discuss outsourcing when it's beneficial to our country and its workers.

And your assertion that it's Bush's job to keep businesses from outsourcing? Not in a Representative Republic. Maybe in a Communist state, but not here. You had better rethink this. The government already has its snoot into too much private industry already. All we need is for the gov to start telling companies it can't outsource...or els.

Besides, the unemployment rate is 5.5%, lower than when Clinton was reelected. If outsourcing is creating such a problem, why isn't the UR higher?

David

chess9
10-05-2006, 01:54 AM
During a search I found this thread. How interesting, from an historical perspective to read the glowing reports of America's election of Bush.

How many of those who were all gooey eyed for Bush just two years ago are still agog over his administration and its successes in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Any bets on mid term elections? I think the Republicans will still hold the Senate, and probably the House as well. Sheezh, some folks just don't learn....

-Robert