Kick Serve

[itsn3o]

I tried searching some threads, but I haven't found any that would help my kick serve. I'm tossing the ball around 11 o clock, but I'm not gettin enough of a bounce to give trouble to the returner. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

[Smashlob]

Let the ball drop a little bit lower than you would let it for a flat serve, then use the extra room to brush up even more. You can move your grip more towards an eastern backhand as well.

[finchy]

more racquet head speed. thats basically it really. and i guess u should make it at 12 o clock, where it would fall right on your head if it dropped.

[Marius_Hancu]

I tried searching some threads, but I haven't found any that would help my kick serve. I'm tossing the ball around 11 o clock, but I'm not gettin enough of a bounce to give trouble to the returner. Any suggestions would be appreciated, thanks!

Hm, there are several useful threads here on kick serve, you might want to look at them:


Check the postings by sonicdeviant in this thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=267

[hofertennis]

I have discovered that the farther you toss the ball to your left (if your a right hander) along the baseline, the more kick or topspin you will get. The farther to the right, the more slice. That's about as simple of a tip as there is.

[axl1892]

I have discovered that the farther you toss the ball to your left (if your a right hander) along the baseline, the more kick or topspin you will get. The farther to the right, the more slice. That's about as simple of a tip as there is.

Of course, if you do it like this you're going to really telegraph your intentions to the returner. The goal is to make really minimal adjustments in the toss, yet be able to vary the spin and pace of the serve nevertheless.

[hofertennis]

okay, let's see you toss the ball to your right and hit a kick serve!! Or toss the ball to your left and hit a slice serve!! It's the changes in the toss that create the different serves, not how you swing at them.

[axl1892]

okay, let's see you toss the ball to your right and hit a kick serve!! Or toss the ball to your left and hit a slice serve!! It's the changes in the toss that create the different serves, not how you swing at them.

Obviously I meant that the best thing is to have a neutral toss and be able to create different serves out of it. And you've got to be kidding me if you think toss alone "creates" the different serve. Is it toss that's responsible for a flat vs. sliced serve?
It may be true that it's more difficult to create a huge kick from a neutral toss vs. a back/left toss. The tradeoff is that your opponent doesn't see what's coming, which all in all is a more valuable asset for a serve.

[Bungalo Bill]

okay, let's see you toss the ball to your right and hit a kick serve!! Or toss the ball to your left and hit a slice serve!! It's the changes in the toss that create the different serves, not how you swing at them.

Obviously I meant that the best thing is to have a neutral toss and be able to create different serves out of it. And you've got to be kidding me if you think toss alone "creates" the different serve. Is it toss that's responsible for a flat vs. sliced serve?
It may be true that it's more difficult to create a huge kick from a neutral toss vs. a back/left toss. The tradeoff is that your opponent doesn't see what's coming, which all in all is a more valuable asset for a serve.


You are correct. It is best to have a toss that you can hit several serves from. But that is difficult to do and it does take practice.

[predrag]

okay, let's see you toss the ball to your right and hit a kick serve!! Or toss the ball to your left and hit a slice serve!! It's the changes in the toss that create the different serves, not how you swing at them.

???

With all do respect, would you like to clarify this, little bit more?

Regards, Predrag

[vin]

If you're trying to sneak in a kicker for a first serve, I agree that you should disguise your toss, but I don't think it's important for a second serve. It's no big surprise that a kick serve is coming on the second serve. Even the pros toss noticably further behind their head for their second serves. This includes Sampras who had a lot of topspin on both his serves.

itsn3o,

If you already have the motion down for hitting kick serves, I find that a relaxed arm makes a big difference in generating more spin which will contribute to a higher bounce. The height of your bounce will also increase if you hit the serve higher over the net.

[Bungalo Bill]

If you're trying to sneak in a kicker for a first serve, I agree that you should disguise your toss, but I don't think it's important for a second serve. It's no big surprise that a kick serve is coming on the second serve. Even the pros toss noticably further behind their head for their second serves. This includes Sampras who had a lot of topspin on both his serves.

itsn3o,

If you already have the motion down for hitting kick serves, I find that a relaxed arm makes a big difference in generating more spin which will contribute to a higher bounce. The height of your bounce will also increase if you hit the serve higher over the net.

So you are really sure about Sampras? Sampras was well known for his toss disguise on BOTH serves.

Being able to disguise your serve from your toss is an asset to have on ANY and all serves!!

It is not only a matter of disguising your serve from your toss. It is answering the question "what is best". The best thing a player can do is to disguise their serve based on the toss. Period.

[tennisplayer]

Here's a question for BB and others.

Most advice on how to hit kick serves or slice serves suggest that the server brush the ball - from 6 to 12, or 9 to 3, etc. depending on the type of serve. It suggests that the racquet is actually glancing the ball, i.e. coming at it more sideways than straight on. While I believe this will produce the desired spin, I've noticed that the pros always seem to strike the ball more solidly or straight on, and get a ton more speed as a result, as well as spin. Do they use a different technique? Like, are they just aiming for a spot on the ball instead of trying to "brush" the ball? Or am I totally off?

[vin]

So you are really sure about Sampras? Sampras was well known for his toss disguise on BOTH serves.


Based on looking at first serve and second serve videos from tennisone in quicktime side by side, I'm pretty sure.

Maybe my memory is incorrect. If I have the time, I'll check out the videos again and post pictures to show the difference.

[vin]

Here's a question for BB and others.

Most advice on how to hit kick serves or slice serves suggest that the server brush the ball - from 6 to 12, or 9 to 3, etc. depending on the type of serve. It suggests that the racquet is actually glancing the ball, i.e. coming at it more sideways than straight on. While I believe this will produce the desired spin, I've noticed that the pros always seem to strike the ball more solidly or straight on, and get a ton more speed as a result, as well as spin. Do they use a different technique? Like, are they just aiming for a spot on the ball instead of trying to "brush" the ball? Or am I totally off?

I think pronation and forward motion of the swing is bringing the racquet through the ball while the racquet is moving upwards at the same time to apply topspin.

Think of a topspin groundstroke. Even though you are doing some brushing for topspin, you still have to hit through to get pace.

If you finish your serve with your palm facing upwards, that's a good indication that you're just brushing and not pronating which would likely be the cause for a lack of pace.

[predrag]

So you are really sure about Sampras? Sampras was well known for his toss disguise on BOTH serves.


Based on looking at first serve and second serve videos from tennisone in quicktime side by side, I'm pretty sure.

Maybe my memory is incorrect. If I have the time, I'll check out the videos again and post pictures to show the difference.

That is little curious, since everybody else is marveling how Sampras hits three types of serves from the identical toss.

Regards, Predrag

[kevhen]

I never thought Sampras second serve was much different than his first except that he would aim it like 6 inches more inside the T than his first. He was still hitting them like 120mph on big points.

[vin]

I do know that Sampras is famous for disguise. I also know that at some point in his career, I think towards the end, he started going for more on his second serves. Maybe the videos I was looking at were before that time. Either way, I don't see why disguise is important on the second serve since most people hit a kick serve every time. Or maybe more people use multiple serves for their second than I think?

I won't have time tonight, but maybe tomorrow I can look at the videos again and see if I can put together some evidence to back up my claim.

[predrag]

I do know that Sampras is famous for disguise. I also know that at some point in his career, I think towards the end, he started going for more on his second serves. Maybe the videos I was looking at were before that time. Either way, I don't see why disguise is important on the second serve since most people hit a kick serve every time. Or maybe more people use multiple serves for their second than I think?

I won't have time tonight, but maybe tomorrow I can look at the videos again and see if I can put together some evidence to back up my claim.

Ok, let's see, let's say I am serving to you, and you know it is a second serve coming.
However, my disguise is pretty good so you cannot say from my toss if I am hitting slice or topspin.
Do you think this situation is easier for you than if you knew I am serving high kick to your backhand?

If the server is able to serve two completely different types of spin, even if the actual spin is not
that great, element of surprise will more that make up for the lack of spin.

Did it ever happen to you that you expect ball to bounce high and it doesn't?
Were you able to attack that serve?


Regards, Predrag

[hofertennis]

AXL, Yes it is the toss that's the difference between a flat and slice serve. Flat serves and slice serves are both tossed well forward of the body but we're talking about a kick serve. I would love to see someone kick a serve in when they've tossed ball well forward of the body like in a flat serve. You simple cannot brush up on a ball that too far in front of your body. So my contention is that a toss more in front of the body produces less spin and a toss behind the head or body produces more spin. One to two inches in ball toss change is not that noticable to an opponent.

[hofertennis]

Let me clarify. It is not so much the ball toss position that creates different serves but the body and specifically your head in relation to that toss that makes the difference. Sure you can toss to your right and lean your body and head underneath the ball and create a kick serve. Or you can toss the ball in front of your body and lean under or fail to lean under the ball to determine the amount of spin you want. But for most people, altering the toss will usually produce the desired results. Not until the person is comfortable with the location of the toss in relation to their head to execute a kick serve will they be able to have a more "neutral" toss and produce the same spin.

[vin]

I'm sure some will argue about camera angle or the slight difference in the progress of the swing, but the difference is convincing enough to me. I shouldn't have to point out which is the first serve and which is the second.

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/sampras_toss.JPG

[gmlasam]

Here is an overhead illustration on where to toss the ball for all serves, flat, slice, and kick. Check it out here, http://www.**********.com/lesson-lounge/operation-doubles/article-014.htm

[vin]

Predrag,

I see what you're saying, but I didn't think that many people hit a slice second serve. True, some do, but if you don't, why bother with disguise if you know you can hit a better kicker tossing more to the left?

[Bungalo Bill]

Predrag,

I see what you're saying, but I didn't think that many people hit a slice second serve. True, some do, but if you don't, why bother with disguise if you know you can hit a better kicker tossing more to the left?

Sure they do, but they do it with some topspin. It is one of my favorite second serves.

[Bungalo Bill]

I'm sure some will argue about camera angle or the slight difference in the progress of the swing, but the difference is convincing enough to me. I shouldn't have to point out which is the first serve and which is the second.

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/sampras_toss.JPG

Ahhh, so you want to argue your "findings". This is one picture. Can you find more? I have a lot of footage that proves that Sampras can hit many different types of serves from one or different tosses.

It is the main reason he was so successful. Keep trying.

[Bungalo Bill]

Let me clarify. It is not so much the ball toss position that creates different serves but the body and specifically your head in relation to that toss that makes the difference. Sure you can toss to your right and lean your body and head underneath the ball and create a kick serve. Or you can toss the ball in front of your body and lean under or fail to lean under the ball to determine the amount of spin you want. But for most people, altering the toss will usually produce the desired results. Not until the person is comfortable with the location of the toss in relation to their head to execute a kick serve will they be able to have a more "neutral" toss and produce the same spin.

lol, the bottom-line to this is if you want to learn a serve, it helps to toss the ball in a position that allows your body to move naturally and execute a racquet path that will allow the server to produce a specific spin.

However, as a player improves, they can find a toss that can give them disguise on what they are going to do. Not everyone does this.

You can toss the ball out front and disguise a topspin serve vs. a flat serve. You can toss the ball to the right and diguise a twist serve with a topspin serve. You can toss the ball to the left and disguise several different serves.

It is a matter of practice. You sound like you are going back and forth.

[tetsuo10]

I think it's more important to disguise where you are going to hit the serve (wide, into the body, T) and also pace of the ball.

[Bungalo Bill]

I'm sure some will argue about camera angle or the slight difference in the progress of the swing, but the difference is convincing enough to me. I shouldn't have to point out which is the first serve and which is the second.

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/sampras_toss.JPG

Actually why dont you so I can argue this.

[Marius_Hancu]

Most advice on how to hit kick serves or slice serves suggest that the server brush the ball - from 6 to 12, or 9 to 3, etc. depending on the type of serve. It suggests that the racquet is actually glancing the ball, i.e. coming at it more sideways than straight on. While I believe this will produce the desired spin, I've noticed that the pros always seem to strike the ball more solidly or straight on, and get a ton more speed as a result, as well as spin. Do they use a different technique? Like, are they just aiming for a spot on the ball instead of trying to "brush" the ball? Or am I totally off?

Check the postings by sonicdeviant on pronation in this thread:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=514&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highl ight=backhand+supination&start=15

[tennisplayer]

The article by SonicDeviant is very interesting, indeed. I think I have been unconsciously doing it for some time as my usual opponents have got used to my second serve spin, and now I need to crank up the pace some more! That's why I asked the question. Thanks very much! And thanks to Vin, too.

[axl1892]

AXL, Yes it is the toss that's the difference between a flat and slice serve. Flat serves and slice serves are both tossed well forward of the body but we're talking about a kick serve. I would love to see someone kick a serve in when they've tossed ball well forward of the body like in a flat serve. You simple cannot brush up on a ball that too far in front of your body. So my contention is that a toss more in front of the body produces less spin and a toss behind the head or body produces more spin. One to two inches in ball toss change is not that noticable to an opponent.

K, the toss doesn't produce *anything*. A toss behind the head enables the player to hit a kick serve more effectively then a toss in front, but that doesn't mean that's what he has to do.
And yeah, changes in toss are pretty noticeable to anybody playing even a very modest rec level (say 4.0). Especially if there is a lot of patterns with toss/serve type, then you can really begin to tee off on the serves. And that is why I think it's more important to disguise one's intentions.

[vin]

Ahhh, so you want to argue your "findings". This is one picture. Can you find more? I have a lot of footage that proves that Sampras can hit many different types of serves from one or different tosses.

It is the main reason he was so successful. Keep trying.

Yes, this is only one picture, and it says that Sampras at least sometimes uses a different toss for his second serves than he does for his first. I was never trying to suggest that Sampras can't disguise his serves or that he can't hit a second serve off of a typical first serve toss.

What I would like to see is proof that he would hit a 5000 rpm serve in a match off of the same toss as a big 2000 rpm serve. My opinion, based on limited research, is that he can't. Unless John Yandell has videos of each serve associated with each rpm measurement, then I don't think the answer is available to us. If it is, I'd be happy and would like to know the answer.

Being the king of disguise, I think Sampras is an exception. When looking at other pros, it seems to me that it's even more common to see them tossing more to the left (right handers) for their second serves.

Here's my theory as to why. The second serve is mostly about getting the ball in without getting attacked. Thus, a serve with a ton of topspin is very appropriate. The more the ball is to the left, the easier it is to hit topspin. Ok, so you still want some variety on your second serve. You can hit pure topspin, twist, or slice with topspin (no twist). I think all these serves can be hit effectively from a toss to the left, and the key is that this toss favors topspin. So this toss makes it difficult to hit a flat or pure slice serve. Big deal. In my opinion, neither are great choices for a second serve. But what about going all out on a second serve and hitting more flat or pure slice? Ok, done in moderation, this is a good argument, but how often are you going to do this, and is disguising this worth sacrificing the effectiveness of the rest of your second serves?

Before everyone gets carried away, remember this is an OPINION. I'm not afraid of being wrong and corrected, but I'm not interested in this becoming the typical heated battle that normally happens around here, so lets keep this friendly and imformative!

Rather than trying to prove myself correct, I'd rather get to the bottom of this and have everyone, including myself, understand how to improve thier game in relation to it. So, If you're not yet, or maybe never will be good enough to have both, what's more important: a variety of solid but readable second serves, or a variety of weaker but disguised second serves?

[Bungalo Bill]

Ahhh, so you want to argue your "findings". This is one picture. Can you find more? I have a lot of footage that proves that Sampras can hit many different types of serves from one or different tosses.

It is the main reason he was so successful. Keep trying.

Yes, this is only one picture, and it says that Sampras at least sometimes uses a different toss for his second serves than he does for his first. I was never trying to suggest that Sampras can't disguise his serves or that he can't hit a second serve off of a typical first serve toss.

What I would like to see is proof that he would hit a 5000 rpm serve in a match off of the same toss as a big 2000 rpm serve. My opinion, based on limited research, is that he can't. Unless John Yandell has videos of each serve associated with each rpm measurement, then I don't think the answer is available to us. If it is, I'd be happy and would like to know the answer.

Being the king of disguise, I think Sampras is an exception. When looking at other pros, it seems to me that it's even more common to see them tossing more to the left (right handers) for their second serves.

Here's my theory as to why. The second serve is mostly about getting the ball in without getting attacked. Thus, a serve with a ton of topspin is very appropriate. The more the ball is to the left, the easier it is to hit topspin. Ok, so you still want some variety on your second serve. You can hit pure topspin, twist, or slice with topspin (no twist). I think all these serves can be hit effectively from a toss to the left, and the key is that this toss favors topspin. So this toss makes it difficult to hit a flat or pure slice serve. Big deal. In my opinion, neither are great choices for a second serve. But what about going all out on a second serve and hitting more flat or pure slice? Ok, done in moderation, this is a good argument, but how often are you going to do this, and is disguising this worth sacrificing the effectiveness of the rest of your second serves?

Before everyone gets carried away, remember this is an OPINION. I'm not afraid of being wrong and corrected, but I'm not interested in this becoming the typical heated battle that normally happens around here, so lets keep this friendly and imformative!

Rather than trying to prove myself correct, I'd rather get to the bottom of this and have everyone, including myself, understand how to improve thier game in relation to it. So, If you're not yet, or maybe never will be good enough to have both, what's more important: a variety of solid but readable second serves, or a variety of weaker but disguised second serves?

Ummm...well I think you are over analyzing again. The bottom-line to Sampras is that he can hit multiple serves from various tosses. He also had excellent placement on almost all of his serves. He was a very gifted server.

Sampras second serve was a gem and very hard to read. Including the spin on the ball. So I have no clue what your talking about.

Most beginners and intermediates will toss the ball in a certain spot to develop their serve. Some will be able to vary the spin with one toss. Advanced players will learn that they can plce the ball and spin the ball differently with a "special" toss.

Who is saying that a flat serve and a slice serve is the choice for the second serve? Only you are. Their is topspin slice, topspin, pure twist, topspin twist and placement of these combinations.

Elementary.

Having a toss for various serves IS BEST. Period.

[TwistServe]

Well I find that I get a lot more kick and twist when I toss to the left of my flat serve, and I get good topspin with the flat serve toss...

[vin]

Ummm...well I think you are over analyzing again.

Ok, let me simplify.

Topspin is majorly important for a second serve.

12 o'clock toss: can hit almost any serve, harder to apply topspin.

11 o'clock toss: can hit only topspin oriented serves (pure topspin, twist, or slice/topspin without the twist), topspin is easier to apply.

What good is one's disguise of a universal 12 o'clock toss if they are double faulting long because they're not getting enough topspin?

On the second serve, I say big deal if my opponent knows topspin is coming because there's going to be a lot of it and they still don't know what type of topspin serve it's going to be. All they will know is that it's going to kick at them high. They won't know if the serve will curve and what direction it will bounce in.

On the first serve, I agree that I don't want my opponent to know a lot topspin is coming. That's why I'll risk not getting as much topspin with a 12 o'clock toss.

[jun]

TENNIS magainze had an article on serve by Sampras in 1997 or so. (Semptember issue probably...I remember this because I was sophomore in high school). Anyways, Sampras said that he tosses the same for all the serve except for kick serve. He said that he would toss towards his left...I guess he could either go down the middle or out wide off the same kick serve toss?

Anways, I think it's very important to learn to toss in correct spot at the beginning state. Some people seem to say it's not the toss that make the serve, but it's how you swing at them. True, but if a person manages to hit slice serve off 11 o'clock toss, how effective would it be? Again, if a person manages to hit a kick serve off slice serve toss how effective would it be?

Different toss allows server to get into different position (under the ball, etc), and make it easier to swing in certain ways. And you need to learn these first, and then worry about disguise. Disguise is no use if your kick serve doesn't kick enough or if your slice serve doesn't break enough.

[Marius_Hancu]

TENNIS magainze had an article on serve by Sampras in 1997 or so. (Semptember issue probably....

You have a good memory.
This is what sonicdeviant mentions in the worthwhile to read thread
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=514&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highl ight=backhand+supination&start=15
which I mentioned previously:
----------
Check out September 1997 page 37; Sampras' pronation is so extreme compared to some of the others. Other good Tennis Magazine series that I feel REALLY show a kick serve pronation, Sept 1999 - Pat Rafter - look at photo 7 to see how he's pronated, May 1998 - Agassi - photo 6, and July/Aug 2000 page 91 - Dean Goldfine (Todd Martin's coach) - photo 3 shows excellent pronation on the kick and he even talks about the "wrist pronation" in the article as being one of the keys. You can also see how he's not just "brushing up" the back of the ball but also hitting out toward the court - how the heck else do you think these guys hit 90+ mph kick serves???!!! Shocked It took me a long time to stop just hitting the ball in 2 dimensions for a kicker, and that came from that whole "act like the ball is a clock" thing. The ball isn't flat like a clock, so I hate that analogy. Better to think of coming through the ball while your sting bed is simultaneously rubbing or brushing up and to the side. The pronation provides the brushing or massaging of the ball, while your arm and shoulder give it the forward oomph it needs for some pace.
-----------------

[Bungalo Bill]

TENNIS magainze had an article on serve by Sampras in 1997 or so. (Semptember issue probably....

You have a good memory.
This is what sonicdeviant mentions in the worthwhile to read thread
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=514&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highl ight=backhand+supination&start=15
which I mentioned previously:
----------
Check out September 1997 page 37; Sampras' pronation is so extreme compared to some of the others. Other good Tennis Magazine series that I feel REALLY show a kick serve pronation, Sept 1999 - Pat Rafter - look at photo 7 to see how he's pronated, May 1998 - Agassi - photo 6, and July/Aug 2000 page 91 - Dean Goldfine (Todd Martin's coach) - photo 3 shows excellent pronation on the kick and he even talks about the "wrist pronation" in the article as being one of the keys. You can also see how he's not just "brushing up" the back of the ball but also hitting out toward the court - how the heck else do you think these guys hit 90+ mph kick serves???!!! Shocked It took me a long time to stop just hitting the ball in 2 dimensions for a kicker, and that came from that whole "act like the ball is a clock" thing. The ball isn't flat like a clock, so I hate that analogy. Better to think of coming through the ball while your sting bed is simultaneously rubbing or brushing up and to the side. The pronation provides the brushing or massaging of the ball, while your arm and shoulder give it the forward oomph it needs for some pace.
-----------------

Clock face worked for me. Sounds like another way worked for you. Why is yours better?

[Marius_Hancu]

Clock face worked for me. Sounds like another way worked for you. Why is yours better?

Clock face still works for me too.
And this is sonicdeviant 's, not mine.
He argues that this is how Sampras and other pros are doing things, by pronation, on ALL serves, including kick. You might want to read that thread for copious arguments.

[Bungalo Bill]

Clock face worked for me. Sounds like another way worked for you. Why is yours better?

Clock face still works for me too.
And this is sonicdeviant 's, not mine.
He argues that this is how Sampras and other pros are doing things, by pronation, on ALL serves, including kick. You might want to read that thread for copious arguments.

Why?If it works, why? Many different ways to teach tennis.

[Marius_Hancu]

Why?If it works, why? Many different ways to teach tennis.

Oh, definitely ...

But I think that if Sampras, Rafter and Agassi did something in a certain way, I could improve the performance adopting it, in this case more speed, kick, etc. Thus I should at least experiment with it.

[jun]

In kick serve, the swing is pretty much in sideways.
So if I were to see a person who's hitting a kick/topspin serve from behind, the tip of their racket would draw an arc. So I think there is close to no forward swing at all. And that's probably why you don't see a kick serve that's over 110 mph (or very rarely), and considered to be a "change up".

Similar to top spin ground stroke. If you were to hit topspin lob, then it would be pretty much up ward swing.

I am not sure if I am right, but I think if you took a swing path of flat serve, chage orientation, and angle of swing etc,. you could overlay it over kick serve swing path and match...But slice serve swing path won't match any of them.

[bcaz]

If one wants to minimize toss variation and still serve with variety, the key is to focus on hitting through different segments of the ball(clock face). Rather than a clock face, I think of the ball as what it is, a sphere, and go for regions of the ball.

(I'm lefty) -- continental grip, big mostly flat serve: lower half of the ball. Continental slice: southwest quadrant of ball. Eastern backhand twist: southeast quadrant of the ball. Eastern backhand topspin: lower rear quadrant of the ball.

[JohnThomas1]

I can comment on the Sampras toss. Jun is spot on, i have the mag in front of me. Sampras stated he does indeed toss the ball a LITTLE to the left for the kicker. He also said he uses the identical toss for both the flat and the slice. In my opinion Sampras had as small a difference toss wise between the kicker and flat you could ever see. He also mentions a Fischer drill that no doubt helped olead to this. In the middle of Sampras's service motion AFTER the toss he used to call out what type of serve he wanted, flat, slice or kicker. They did it for years Sampras states. Hope i've helped a lil :)

[Marius_Hancu]

I can comment on the Sampras toss. Jun is spot on, i have the mag in front of me. Sampras stated he does indeed toss the ball a LITTLE to the left for the kicker. He also said he uses the identical toss for both the flat and the slice. In my opinion Sampras had as small a difference toss wise between the kicker and flat you could ever see. He also mentions a Fischer drill that no doubt helped olead to this. In the middle of Sampras's service motion AFTER the toss he used to call out what type of serve he wanted, flat, slice or kicker. They did it for years Sampras states. Hope i've helped a lil :)

Interesting but not completely clear, as after a kick toss a little to the left he couldn't have executed anything but a kick serve, as per above, or so it seems to me ...

More interesting for me, do you see in the mag the pronation for the kick as per sonicdeviant in the original thread?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/viewtopic.php?t=514&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highl ight=backhand+supination&start=15

Unfortunately, I do not have those magazine issues.

[JohnThomas1]

You mean as in a match? His toss slightly to the left giving it away?

[Marius_Hancu]

You mean as in a match? His toss slightly to the left giving it away?

Now, I mean as in practice. You said that Sampras (or the coach) was calling the type of serve (flat, slice, kick) AFTER the toss. Well, if he knew he had been tossing slightly at left for a kicker, he was not supposed to execute the other too.

Also, my question on pronation on kicker remains. Do you see any in the pictures in the mag?

[JohnThomas1]

You misunderstood, Sampras was making the SAME toss everytime and hitting all 3 serves of it.

[JohnThomas1]

Yes, there was a massive pronation on the kick serve.

[Marius_Hancu]

Yes, there was a massive pronation on the kick serve.

Thanks for the confirmation. Guess you see that while the racket is on this back before hitting the ball? Or when rising towards it? Or just before contact?

[Marius_Hancu]

You misunderstood, Sampras was making the SAME toss everytime and hitting all 3 serves of it.

That's what I knew, but you said:


I can comment on the Sampras toss. Jun is spot on, i have the mag in front of me. Sampras stated he does indeed toss the ball a LITTLE to the left for the kicker. He also said he uses the identical toss for both the flat and the slice.


Also, as I am looking closer at Sampras Agassi USO QF 2001, 1st set, 4-4, 30-15, he serves from the ad court. A very good view of his serve in the recording from the broadcast by the USA network. A first which he misses, tossed close to 1 o'clock. A 2nd, kicker, which he completes, tossed at about 11.30, under which he naturally gets in, with more back arching. I would be reluctant to generalize from this, but this is in accordance to what you're saying Sampras stated in the magazine (which I do not have), that his toss for the kicker is a LITTLE to the left. BTW, my slow-mo doesn't work any more and I am not able to detect pronation or not.

[JohnThomas1]

Sounds fair, the pics are just before and after contact.

[jun]

I don't think Sampras talks about pronation in that article..I could be mistaken.

That drill Sampras mentioned is pretty famous. But you know, i think it gets pretty darn difficult to hit a GOOD kick serve off flat serve toss.

Anyways, maybe Sampras could hit kick serve to all four corners with the same kick serve toss. Normally, kick is hit to down the middle, or deuce or out wide on ad side..

Disguise is not just about toss, or type of serve. It could be forehand, backhand, how much shoulder turn, any kind of change in motion that signals the type of serve.

Now I even remember another post match interview that Sampras did. It was pretty sunny day, and Sampras talked about how he had to toss to avoid looking into the sun, and he said that the only serve he could hit from that toss was a kicker.

[jun]

Pronation happens on all Sampras' serve, and pretty much every pro's serve. Some people have less degree of pronation than others.

Sampras definately had more pronation than other people.

[drakulie]

Damn, this is probably the best thread I have read. Very insightful, and great links.

I have to admit the "clock" example in learning the kick serve has never been a good one for me. I have a heavy kick serve with good pace, but I hit through the ball forward and up with lots of pronation. I toss it between 11-12 . I do not consciously hit the ball from "7-2" o'clock. The only thing I consciously do for a Kick serve is make sure the butt of my racquet is leading the way to contact.

[Marius_Hancu]

I have a heavy kick serve with good pace, but I hit through the ball forward and up with lots of pronation. I toss it between 11-12 . I do not consciously hit the ball from "7-2" o'clock. The only thing I consciously do for a Kick serve is make sure the butt of my racquet is leading the way to contact.

OK, if you're a practitioner of the art of pronation on the kick serve:-), pls tell me:

- which grip? because eastern backhand might be difficult to pronate, as I see it, as it leads to less axial mobility in the forearm/wrist

- when do you start the pronation? just before the contact?

- do you continue the pronation during and after the contact with the ball, or are you achieving the max angle of pronation before releasing the ball from the strings? (I know the contact is only 4 milliseconds, but still a correct movement before and after it is usually essential in tennis with any shot)

[drakulie]

marius,Idonot consider myself, "a practitioner of the art of pronation on the kick serve". it has just been an extremely interesting thread with great insight.

I use a continental for all my serves. The pronation occurs immediately before contact. My wrist snap I suppose would occur at contact. I am not 100% sure but that is what it feels like. My arm continues to pronate outward, and the wrist snap causes the butt of my racquet to face upward towards the sky.

I would be curious to see a video tape of myself serving to see exactly what is happening.

Everything happens so fast, I cannot be so sure exactly what is happening when the racquet meets the ball.

I can say that my arm is almost fully extended before the pronation starts. In other words, I am leading with the edge of the racquet. This goes for all my serves.

Hope this helps.

[vin]

OK, if you're a practitioner of the art of pronation on the kick serve:-), pls tell me:

- which grip? because eastern backhand might be difficult to pronate, as I see it, as it leads to less axial mobility in the forearm/wrist


I can usually feel good pronation on my kick serve. My grip is a continental/eastern backhand combo. The base knuckle of my index finger is on the first bevel and the corner or heel of my hand is on the top panel (this is what makes the combo - being on the top panel instead of the first bevel for the standard continental).

I know everyone claims Sampras and many others use the full eastern backhand, but from what I can see in the pictures and videos I have access to, the grip he uses is closer to what I just described. For me, this is the best possible grip for pronation.


- when do you start the pronation? just before the contact?

- do you continue the pronation during and after the contact with the ball, or are you achieving the max angle of pronation before releasing the ball from the strings? (I know the contact is only 4 milliseconds, but still a correct movement before and after it is usually essential in tennis with any shot)
It's hard to tell exactly when it starts and stops, but the pronation is happening at the same time as the brushing. Imagine hammering a nail into the ceiling with the side of your racquet. That's what I'm doing as I pronate. I'm still trying to master this as it doesn't happen on every serve. The pronation component can be difficult if the toss is not right. For example, it will be hard to pronate on a toss that is not slightly in front of you or at least directly above. When I get it right, it feels great, and I get good spin and good pace at the same time.

[fastdunn]

Pronation indeed promote more of pace and spin both via

1. One more angular momentum -> higher swing speed.
2. More surface area of string bed to brush

[Marius_Hancu]

Thanks vin and drakulie.

[drakulie]

Your welcome. The Kick Serve is definitely a tricky serve. It took me quite a while to become comfortable with it. Stick with it, you will get it.

[jeebeesus]

Try going at it extra slowly first. Imagine you`re going to brush the ball with with every string . The resulting kick will be tremendous.

[Marius_Hancu]

Pronation happens on all Sampras' serve, and pretty much every pro's serve.

Yes, I know, but not sure to which extent they are all able to do it on the kicker.

Very good videos exemplifying the pronation on serve, even if not captured with high-speed cameras, which you can see step-by-step in Quick-Time) are at:

http://www.tenniscruz.com/photo.htm
Great Shots
Serve and Volley

where Sampras, Henin and Roddick are displaying pronation on first serve only (I think). One can see in all clips that:

- just a little before contact the racket face is perpendicular to the baseline, facilitating greater speed through the air and subsequent pronation

- pronation is started right before contact, continuing through contact, and after it

I wasn't able to clearly identify at that site a kicker with pronation. Still, enjoy:-))

BTW, this I can execute, no problem. However I have difficulties with pronation on kick and even slice serves. It'll come with more practice:-))

[vin]

I wasn't able to clearly identify at that site a kicker with pronation.

Looks like pronation to me. Judge for yourself ...

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/sampras_pronate_second.JPG

[Marius_Hancu]

I wasn't able to clearly identify at that site a kicker with pronation.

Looks like pronation to me. Judge for yourself ...

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/sampras_pronate_second.JPG

I am talking about a kicker with pronation, also at the site I posted (tenniscruz_remove.com, remove _remove), not in this image. Now even in this image, do you think this was a kicker? It definitely has pronation.

I would like to see a full clip of a kicker with pronation.

[vin]

I am talking about a kicker with pronation

Me too. :)

also at the site I posted (tenniscruz_remove.com, remove _remove), not in this image.

Ok, if you look here: http://www.tenniscruzREMOVE.com/movies/Pete_SV.htm
You'll see that the arm and racquet end up in the same position as in the picture I posted.

Now even in this image, do you think this was a kicker? It definitely has pronation.

The clip is listed as a second serve and judging from the toss, I would think so. The picture is from the same clip that I took the other picture from to show the difference in toss. It's from the clip on the right with the toss further behind the his head. Judge for yourself.

I would like to see a full clip of a kicker with pronation.
So would I, but it's not easy to find clips that are labeled based on what type of serve is hit. And from my own results, it's obvious to me that my kick serves are better with pronation than they are without it. Or at least less of it - I say that because you have to pronate to an extent just to get the racquet square with the ball or you'd be hitting the ball with the side of your frame.

[jun]

I think that clip actually is a kick serve. Notcie how his shoulder hasn't opened up very much at all. And his finish is to his side, rather than to forward.

Pronation is mere turn of forearm (or palm or whatever). So if you put hand in front of your chest so that your palm is facing to your left, and turn it so that it faces forward, it has just pronated.

In serve, from the moment that the racket butt is pointing to the sky, and to the moment that racket meets the ball, you pronate...with the exception of slice serve.

With all this being said, Goran, James Blake, Roger Federer, Roddick, Sampras, Henin, all pronates on first and second serve. IMO Agassi pronates the least..

I think degree of pronation depends on how much swing speed you are generating, and how stretched you are before going up for the ball...

If you have hard time to believe my words, i will back it up with what one coach at NBTA told me..(I suppose he has more credibility than I do). When I asked him how to hit kick serve, he used to tell me to pronate more quickly, or earlier..

[drakulie]

Go to Easitennis.com. They have an awesome insturctional video plus frame by frame pictures (rollovers) of the Kick Serve. They teach you exactly how to hit this shot. To me, it is the best instructional site I have come across (including videos, books, etc.)

Pronation happens on all serves.

[Marius_Hancu]

And from my own results, it's obvious to me that my kick serves are better with pronation than they are without it. Or at least less of it - I say that because you have to pronate to an extent just to get the racquet square with the ball or you'd be hitting the ball with the side of your frame.

I'm pretty much convinced conceptually that a kicker it's easier to execute with pronation. I just have to re-educate my arm and brain to incorporate it. Didn't have any problems on the first/flat serve, sooner or later it'll be there for the kicker.

Question though: are you fully pronated before getting in contact with the ball on the kick? I think so, and this seems to be different from the flat, where the servers seem to execute the pronation during the contact with the ball (as the racket's face is perpendicular to the baseline, or the frame edge facing the ball, while advancing to the ball for Sampras).

Now honestly, by looking at Sampras's kickers, do you really have a feeling that they jump a lot to the right after impact with the ground? It seems to me that he's doing his damage mainly with the speed on those 2nd serves too. Certainly they jump quite high (Agassi's shoulder), but don't see that much to the right.

On slices, the movement of the ball to the left after impact is much more clear in his case, IMO.

[Marius_Hancu]

If you have hard time to believe my words, i will back it up with what one coach at NBTA told me..(I suppose he has more credibility than I do). When I asked him how to hit kick serve, he used to tell me to pronate more quickly, or earlier..

I have no difficulty believing you, but this is a good pointer. Thanks.

[JohnThomas1]

Marius i really think you shouldn't be thinking of pronation. It is a natural occurence that need not be structured into the swing. It is a motion within a motion.

[vin]

Go to Easitennis.com. They have an awesome insturctional video plus frame by frame pictures (rollovers) of the Kick Serve. They teach you exactly how to hit this shot. To me, it is the best instructional site I have come across (including videos, books, etc.)


I agree. Very good detailed breakdown of fundamentals. Especially on the forehand.

[vin]

Question though: are you fully pronated before getting in contact with the ball on the kick?

No, you're pronating through the ball. You're racquet should be facing the side of the court when pronation is complete, thus you obviously don't want to be hitting the ball at that point. The difference when you're trying to add topspin is that you have to brush up a as you pronate.

Now honestly, by looking at Sampras's kickers, do you really have a feeling that they jump a lot to the right after impact with the ground? It seems to me that he's doing his damage mainly with the speed on those 2nd serves too.

Sampras is recorded as getting as much as 5000 rpm on his second serve. That's tremendous spin! He's famous for hitting hard serves that ALSO have a ton of spin. Whether it bounces to the right or not I don't think is very relevant. It's just a matter of brushing in a slightly different direction.

[vin]

Marius i really think you shouldn't be thinking of pronation. It is a natural occurence that need not be structured into the swing. It is a motion within a motion.

I know there's a lot of disagreement on this one, but I don't see the harm in isolating it and practicing it at a slow pace to get the feel for it so that it is more likely to happen naturally.

Not everyone pronates to the same extent, and some hardly do at all, so for the ones who aren't doing it well, why not practice it?

I think strong internal rotation is what gives pronation the foundation of it's power. If you have good internal rotation, you're probably more likely to have better pronation. So I think another good way to work on pronation would be to keep the shoulder open as BB always says, and use your legs to get a good externally rotated stretch. If timing is right, the leg drive will produce this good stretch and when it releases, the leg drive will continue to increase the speed of the internal rotation that results. This should then launch the racquet to pronate into the ball.

[travisv]

I have read through some of the posts made by sonicdeviant regarding the serve and pronation. The problem I am having is on some of my serves I get a hook spin; which is a ball moving from left to right. Being a right handed player the natural flight of the ball should be right to left. If you pronate the arm in serving which means it is turning in a clockwise fashion how do you prevent the ball from curving left to right.

Thanks

[drakulie]

You are pronating too late.Try pronating a little earlier, immediately before impact-and then through impact.

Good Luck.

[drakulie]

Travisv, you may also want to check your grip.If you are using a eastern, semiwestern,or western forehand grip this could also be a reason you are hooking the ball. Make sure you are using a continental, or eastern backhand grip.

Good Luck

[Bungalo Bill]

The above tip on checking your grip was good. However, I would forget about trying to pronate later or earlier. That will really screw you up and frustrate you.

The strings simply need to brush the ball going from 7 - 1 or 8 - 2.

The toss needs to go behind you and more over your right shoulder. You need to arch your back somewhat and hit the ball with your strings going in the direction mentioned above.

At first, you need to deliberately serve slowly. Only brush the ball with no effort to add pace. You want to get the feel of how to brush the ball. Your arm will work naturally if you just allow the brain to bring the racquet face to the ball.

In fact, in college, we used to stand way behind the baseline and loop spinny balls high over the net. As we got the brushing feeling down we added pace and moved up towards the baseline.

[travisv]

Thank you for the suggestions. I use a grip which is between an eastern backhand and continental grip. I think this is the only thing which I know is correct in regards to serving.

The confusing part which is hard to understand for me is how the racquet moves when contacting the ball. If I swing through the ball with my racquet on edge and do no pronation the ball moves left which would be a slice. When I try to kind of grab the right half of the ball and hold onto it with my racquet to produce spin then pronate I sometimes get the hook type serve. With the movement of the arm is it continuous or once the racquet is square is there a pause?

[Bungalo Bill]

Thank you for the suggestions. I use a grip which is between an eastern backhand and continental grip. I think this is the only thing which I know is correct in regards to serving.

The confusing part which is hard to understand for me is how the racquet moves when contacting the ball. If I swing through the ball with my racquet on edge and do no pronation the ball moves left which would be a slice. When I try to kind of grab the right half of the ball and hold onto it with my racquet to produce spin then pronate I sometimes get the hook type serve. With the movement of the arm is it continuous or once the racquet is square is there a pause?

The ball is only going to be on the strings for an extremely short time.

Pretend the ball is a clock facing the back fence. Your strings should brush the ball spinning it in the direction of 7-1 or 8-2. Try and brush the ball in the middle of the clock face and see if that helps you. The racquet needs to continuously go in that direction.

Also, make sure you toss the ball high enough to give yourself time to move the racquet properly. If it is too low you might end up moving the racquet arm up and around the ball. GO up and out in the direction mentioned above.

[drakulie]

If you are right handed, serving to the Deuce side,and your ball is hooking to the right it could only mean one thing.---- Your racquet face is catching the left side of the ball, and your racquet face is facing more towards the Ad court at impact, hence the slicing hook to the right.

Again,this could only mean one thing -you have pronated too much before impact, thus your racquet face is facing to the Ad court at impact.

Try pronating immediately before impact so that you catch the ball square at impact.

Also,your swing needs to be directed more upwards,than sideways to get topspin. If it only goes sideways at Impact you will have slice.

Good luck

[jun]

travisv-
I could be wrong, you might be confused between pronation with suspination. Pronation is outward turn of palm, or forearm. So if you pronate on flat serve, the string bed would face fence on the right side.

Try to bounce the ball on the ground by hitting right side of the ball. In other words, try to slice the ball on the right side of the ball. Then you will notice that the ball bounces to your right NOT to your left.

On your so called hook serve, you said you catch the right side of the ball and try to pronate (I think you might be suspinating?)..So your serve could bounce from left to right....

I have done similar thing on ad side when try to hit kick serve but it hardly has any topspin but sidespin.....

[Bungalo Bill]

If you are right handed, serving to the Deuce side,and your ball is hooking to the right it could only mean one thing.---- Your racquet face is catching the left side of the ball, and your racquet face is facing more towards the Ad court at impact, hence the slicing hook to the right.

Again,this could only mean one thing -you have pronated too much before impact, thus your racquet face is facing to the Ad court at impact.

Try pronating immediately before impact so that you catch the ball square at impact.

Also,your swing needs to be directed more upwards,than sideways to get topspin. If it only goes sideways at Impact you will have slice.

Good luck

This is not very good instructional advice - having someone "try" and pronate or not pronate. Pronation happens naturally and really is not something to concentrate on.

By giving someone advice like this and having them "think" about pronation sets the person up for frustration.

There are areas of the serve that happen naturally that should not be focused on and there are things that should be focused on. If the person is in the Continental or Eastern backhand grip - pronation should be left alone. It needs to run its own course.

Pronation does not deserve attention. What deserves attention is contacting the ball in the proper spot with the right racquet path. It is all a person needs to do. Messing around with the delicate area of pronation is going to require someone to force or unforce a natural movement.

The toss, the racquet path, and where a person makes contact are the key areas to concentrate on not the little slight movements of pronation.

[gmlasam]

If you are right handed, serving to the Deuce side,and your ball is hooking to the right it could only mean one thing.---- Your racquet face is catching the left side of the ball, and your racquet face is facing more towards the Ad court at impact, hence the slicing hook to the right.

Again,this could only mean one thing -you have pronated too much before impact, thus your racquet face is facing to the Ad court at impact.

Try pronating immediately before impact so that you catch the ball square at impact.

Also,your swing needs to be directed more upwards,than sideways to get topspin. If it only goes sideways at Impact you will have slice.

Good luck

This is not very good instructional advice - having someone "try" and pronate or not pronate. Pronation happens naturally and really is not something to concentrate on.

By giving someone advice like this and having them "think" about pronation sets the person up for frustration.

There are areas of the serve that happen naturally that should not be focused on and there are things that should be focused on. If the person is in the Continental or Eastern backhand grip - pronation should be left alone. It needs to run its own course.

Pronation does not deserve attention. What deserves attention is contacting the ball in the proper spot with the right racquet path. It is all a person needs to do. Messing around with the delicate area of pronation is going to require someone to force or unforce a natural movement.

The toss, the racquet path, and where a person makes contact are the key areas to concentrate on not the little slight movements of pronation.I'm glad you brought this up Bungalo Bill. I also find it very disturbing that people are giving some unsound biomechanical advises. Such advices can lead to some elbow injuries.

[drakulie]

Bungalo Bill/gmlasam-I respectfully disagree. Pronation does not happen naturally/unconsciously. On a serve (continental grip) if you lead with the edge of the racquet you will either severely slice the ball or hit the ball with the side of the racquet. If you want to impact the ball squarely, you have to pronate at some point before impact. Hence, it does not happen naturally or unconsciously. One is consciously trying to hit the ball squarely,so they have to "consciously" pronate the arm. Whether they understand this terminology or not is insignificant.

You also state the following:
If the person is in the Continental or Eastern backhand grip - pronation should be left alone. It needs to run its own course.

The person we are discussing has already stated they are using this grip, and continue to hook the ball to the right. They are obviously pronating already. So your argument to not emphasize pronation is mute.

The fact of the matter is they need to learn to do it a little earlier (better timing). Which is what I advised them to do.

gmlasam wrote:
I also find it very disturbing that people are giving some unsound biomechanical advises. Such advices can lead to some elbow injuries.

As to the aforementioned statement, again, the person in question is already pronating. The only advice I am giving is to have them do it earlier so they do not keep hooking the ball.

"unsound biomechanical advises", too funny. Please read and try to comprehend everything that is being written.

[Marius_Hancu]

Bungalo Bill - I respectfully disagree.
"unsound biomechanical advises", too funny. Please read and try to comprehend everything that is being written.

Couldn't have said it better myself. LOL

[vin]

Pronation happens naturally and really is not something to concentrate on.

By giving someone advice like this and having them "think" about pronation sets the person up for frustration.


Bill, there are two types of players that come to mind when considering how natural or unatural pronation is.

1. The beginner who is learning to serve with the continental grip but is still trying to come straight over the top with waiters wrist.

2. The more advanced player that supinates to hit a kick serve.

Under controlled circumstances, which would be isolating the upper body and going through a slow motion, why is it bad to experiment and deliberately try to learn the feel of pronation?

It's seems pretty obvious that some people pronate a lot more than others and the ones that do it more usually have better serves.

In fact, easitennis.com discusses pronation in isolation and even offers a practice serve for it. Do you disagree with that part of their lesson or am I misinterpreting either you or them?

I understand how forcing pronation can be bad news for the wrist and shoulder, but if someone first understands how to use internal rotation to drive pronation, then the motion is more natural as you say and less risky.

[eddie]

Try pronating immediately before impact so that you catch the ball square at impact.

Good luck

I am very interested in the technical issues surrounding the racket path on the serve before and after contact, i have recently found some great photo sequences highlighting this at procomparetennis.com (particuarly serena williams rear view & Federer side view)

[Marius_Hancu]

I am very interested in the technical issues surrounding the racket path on the serve before and after contact, i have recently found some great photo sequences highlighting this at procomparetennis.com (particuarly serena williams rear view & Federer side view)

Check my first posting in this thread (on the 1st page). Several good previous threads are indicated there.

[Bungalo Bill]

Bungalo Bill - I respectfully disagree.
"unsound biomechanical advises", too funny. Please read and try to comprehend everything that is being written.

Couldn't have said it better myself. LOL

Well you can disagree all you want. Pronation does happen naturally especially with a continental grip.

Guys, I have been around tennis and teach tennis way more then you have. I have studied aloong with Vic Braden, seen his research and commented on exaclty what we were seeing with other coaches that have far more knowledge then you or I have.

I also receive pro clips from Yandell which I view and study all the time.

Pronation happens naturally. A player does not need to concentrate on it to hit the serve. They just dont. It is not the place to focus on.

Marius, I read your stuff all the time and most of your "Stuff" just points people to other places. You have no substance, no ownership, and no background to comment. Which is the main reason why you only include links.

In an argument with Vic Braden and Athur Ashe, Arthur insisted that his arm supinated on the slice. When he was shown that it pronated Arthur apoligized and changed his teaching to students.

Pronation is a natural response. It is not something a person needs to tweak or play with. It serves a great purpose for a player to concentrate on things that do not happen naturally then to focus on things that do happen naturally.

So both of you need to study a little more about how serving works!

[Marius_Hancu]

Well you can disagree all you want. Pronation does happen naturally especially with a continental grip.

Guys, I have been around tennis and teach tennis way more then you have.

Pronation happens naturally. A player does not need to concentrate on it to hit the serve. They just dont. It is not the place to focus on. !

This has nothing to do with your experience or your qualities. Reasonable and informed people can discuss issues and be at diametrally opposite ends. This is very clear to me, at least.

I am using the continental grip, but until recently I did not use pronation. I was aware for a long time of the pros using it, but I did not specifically pursued to have it incorporated.

After I read the comments by sonicdeviant which I referred to at the beginning of this thread, I was able to do this on my first serve during a training session:

- come towards the ball with the edge of the racket, or face perpendicular to the baseline, right before contact (which I guess speeds up the shot considerably, at least in terms of speed of the racket in the air), which I was not doing before, but the pros are doing

- execute consciously pronation while proceeding through contact and I have to say I felt my first serve was faster and would have been harder to return (but I have to check this against real opponents:-))

This is only valid as my personal experience, but this is it.

There's not a single way of skinning a cat, and I guess this is valid in tennis too. You can teach things one way, others may achieve the same result otherwise. No offence to anyone if things develop this way.

I have no problem with studying more how the serve works, being convinced I will be doing that for my whole life:-))

And if you can teach your students to automatically include pronation in their serving action, congratulations.

[drakulie]

Bungalo Bill, Bungalo Bill, Bungalo Bill.

I will begin by stating that I respect your opinions and your obvious knowledge of the game and its instruction.

However, it is arrogant and ignorant for you to assume the following:

I have been around tennis and teach tennis way more then you have.

You do not know me at all to make such a ignorant comment like that.

Pronation is a consciuos mechanical effort in the serve. I do not need to study anything. All you need to do is try hitting a serve using a continental grip without pronating-One word "SHANK"! One has to consciously pronate to hit the ball squarely. Period, end of story. You and Vic Braden are wrong.

Anyone taught to serve properly when they first start to serve using a continental grip (from a forehand grip) , has to be taught to consciously pronate. If not, they hit the ball with the side of the racquet. FACT!

I will end this debate by quoting someone I had lots of respect for.

Why?If it works, why? Many different ways to teach tennis.

Next time, I suggest practicing what you preach.

[Bungalo Bill]

How do you not use pronation with a Continental grip? When you find out let me know!

Until then, pronation is a natural response - especially with the Continental grip!

I have a very good kick serve, slice, and topspin serve - in all instances pronation happens naturally. I have never ever been taught or teach someone to "purposely" pronate or concentrate on pronation to hit a certain serve. Never.

The toss, the racquet path and the brushing the ball on a certain place is what a player needs to concentrate on.

I agree with you that there are ways to teach tennis but some ways are not valid and can really cause injury or frustration.

You are right that there are several ways to teach and several methods of learning but that is always within reason and guidelines and is based on solid fundamentals and biomechanics.

Marius, I must say I do like some of your comments - although you may think not. I particularly like your comment and reasearch on the grass change on Wimbledon. I think that you have a knack at holding and understanding information. Also , I type very quickly and I do not purposely mis-spell your name. I do respect that.

For awhile I spelled Kevhen's name wrong and did not realize it. I put the "h" before the "v" thinking it sounded like Keh-ven - my mistake!

It is very difficult to hit a ball "properly" on your serve without pronation taking place especially in a continental grip - very difficult.

If you want to force more pronation then that is a different story as pronation is already happening. But forcing pronation can lead to arm strain which I highly do not recommend doing.

This is one of the areas that "if a pro" does it I take a detour on. First, a pro is playing for money. Second, a pro is trying to get everything they can on the ball.

A player going out every weekend that does not possess the same training schedule as a pro is only asking for trouble down the road by forcing pronation.

I am 45 years old now. There are things that I can not do when I was twenty. For one, I have lost some flexibility. I do not hit as many balls and therefore are not as conditioned for the impact. Eventually, as I age my risk to be injured increases. So trying to force a wrist snap or forcing pronation on a twist serve is not something I want to do!

[Marius_Hancu]

I have a very good kick serve, slice, and topspin serve - in all instances pronation happens naturally. I have never ever been taught or teach someone to "purposely" pronate or concentrate on pronation to hit a certain serve. Never.

I can believe that, no problem. You're doing something that I don't know or execute, and not seeing you, it's difficult to tell what it is.

Still:

Question: are you coming to the ball with the racket face perpendicular to the baseline, or with the edge of the racket? Are your students doing that?

I wasn't doing that, and when I incorporated it, I had to incorporate pronation, both consciously.

[drakulie]

How do you not use pronation with a Continental grip?


My point exactly! You have to consciously pronate to make a square impact with the ball using this grip! A person serving with a continental grip has to figure this out. Therefore, they are consciously trying to find the corect swing path, and the result is that when they do ----they figure out they have to turn their forearm out, which is called PRONATION!.

Thank you very much. You keep teaching tennis with whatver works for you, and I will do the same.

Good luck!

[Marius_Hancu]

A player going out every weekend that does not possess the same training schedule as a pro is only asking for trouble down the road by forcing pronation.

I honestly appreciate your concern in this day and age when everyone is looking short-term. I had tennis elbow, this got me practically inactive for half an year, I know the importance of safe technique.

[Bungalo Bill]

How do you not use pronation with a Continental grip?


My point exactly! You have to consciously pronate to make a square impact with the ball using this grip! A person serving with a continental grip has to figure this out. Therefore, they are consciously trying to find the corect swing path, and the result is that when they do ----they figure out they have to turn their forearm out, which is called PRONATION!.

Thank you very much. You keep teaching tennis with whatver works for you, and I will do the same.

Good luck!

Again, you do not have to consciously try and pronate - it will happen.

A person doesn't have to figure out they have to pronate as most people do not even know what pronation is to put strings on the ball! I have never ever taught a lesson in which I told a student "now make sure you pronate your arm so that it turns the racquet face into the ball. Concentrate on that pronation!" Ridiulous!

I have never heard Vic Braden or any other respected coach teach a lesson like that. I have never read a book that teaches players how to serve with this as well! Dude, you are in your own world! Just admit you are a little off base!

Keep a loose flexible arm, stay in a continental grip, toss the ball properly and HIT IT! Pronation happens naturally. lol

[vin]

I think an important topic that is not being included in this discussion is the extent of pronation.

A player learning to serve with the continental grip will likely NATURALLY pronate enough to hit the ball. HOWEVER, they will probably slice it unwillingly without being able to hit flat. Basically they don't pronate enough.

Over time, the player will NATURALLY LEARN to pronate a bit more to make the racquet more square with the ball. And this is where it probably stops for most people.

As a side note, I think that this natural learning process can be sped up a bit by isolating pronation (doesn't have to be during a serve) to build the necessary muscles, become familiar with the feel, and understand the purpose. This is similar to the easitennis style of learning and I believe they offer some pronation exercises.

Now we get more advanced. As I said before, it's pretty clear that some pros pronate more than others and the ones that pronate more typically have the better serve. So now the question is do you want to bring pronation beyond the point of being a necessity to hit the ball squarely? I think this is what everyone is disagreeing about.

So, rather than continuing to argue about who is right, why don't we start digging into the injuries that could result from the biomechanics of excessive pronation?

I know I have some anatomy information relative to this somewhere. I'll try to dig it up.

[Bungalo Bill]

I think an important topic that is not being included in this discussion is the extent of pronation.

A player learning to serve with the continental grip will likely NATURALLY pronate enough to hit the ball. HOWEVER, they will probably slice it unwillingly without being able to hit flat. Basically they don't pronate enough.

Over time, the player will NATURALLY LEARN to pronate a bit more to make the racquet more square with the ball. And this is where it probably stops for most people.

As a side note, I think that this natural learning process can be sped up a bit by isolating pronation (doesn't have to be during a serve) to build the necessary muscles, become familiar with the feel, and understand the purpose. This is similar to the easitennis style of learning and I believe they offer some pronation exercises.

Now we get more advanced. As I said before, it's pretty clear that some pros pronate more than others and the ones that pronate more typically have the better serve. So now the question is do you want to bring pronation beyond the point of being a necessity to hit the ball squarely? I think this is what everyone is disagreeing about.

So, rather than continuing to argue about who is right, why don't we start digging into the injuries that could result from the biomechanics of excessive pronation?

I know I have some anatomy information relative to this somewhere. I'll try to dig it up.

Sort of...pronation has nothing to do with where you hit the ball for spin. Hitting the ball with slice has more to do with where you hit the ball.

Actually, I am not going to get into this anymore. Ample proof is available to learn that pronation happens naturally and does not need to be "focused" on to execute a certain serve.

If a player is not getting the desired outcome of a spin they do not need to tweak or control their pronation. Learning to hit the ball with a certain spin has more to do with learning the proper toss location and swing path then trying to tweak it with more or less pronation.

When a player learns how to hit the ball correctly for a certain spin - then he can venture out and try this tweaking of pronation to see if it truly will add more to the desired effect for themselves.

It is very simple physics to know that if the strings brush the ball in a certain direction - you will get the desired spin direction of the ball.

Also, since the ball is only on the strings for less than 4 milliseconds - the amount of time it takes to send the message to the brain to tweak the pronation is worthless. The ball is long gone by the time the body can actually INFLUENCE the ball for a given spin. You simply do not have a quick enough response to apply anything to the ball by tweaking your pronation. Which is why it shouldn't be concentrated on when building your serve.

If you toss the ball properly, swing the racquet in the right path and make contact with the ball in the right spot - you will achieve the spin effect you desire. It is that simple!

[Marius_Hancu]

Now we get more advanced. As I said before, it's pretty clear that some pros pronate more than others and the ones that pronate more typically have the better serve. So now the question is do you want to bring pronation beyond the point of being a necessity to hit the ball squarely? I think this is what everyone is disagreeing about.


I think that there's definitely some truth to what you're saying.

In my experiences of incorporating pronation in my first serve, I found that if I'm coming to the ball with the racket face perpendicular to the baseline, or with the edge of the racket facing the ball, this in order to speed up the racket through the air, I have pretty much 180 degrees available for pronation:

- the first 90 degrees for bringing the racket flat to the ball right before contact

- the rest for imparting "special effects" and speed to the ball

Now, I know I'm in contact with the ball for only 4msec, thus I don't know how much I can use from this:-))

[tennisplayer]

I follow the style that BB advocates - that is, I don't consciously try to do anything other than start with a continental (almost eastern backhand for second serves) and hit the ball with a flat racquet face, at as high a contact point as possible. To achieve this, you have to pronate... except I think what BB means is rather than think "pronate" think about how you want to contact the ball. This will cause pronation to occur automatically, and this is what I find myself doing. The harder I try to hit - for more pace, spin, etc. - the more I pronate - automatically. And as I indicated earlier, I aim for a spot on the ball, rather than "brush", for spin. If think "pronate", I seem to make more errors... at least, that's my experience.

[drakulie]

Dude, you are in your own world! Just admit you are a little off base!

No, you are totally off base.

Making the racquet hit the ball squarely is a CONSCIOUS act.

If you have a student who has never played tennis, and you tell them to pick up a racquet, stand behind the baseline, and hit the ball into the service box the following naturals acts will take place:

1) That student will pick up the racquet with a forehand grip.
2) They will most likely stand facing the other side of the court with their shoulders square to the net.
3) Toss the ball and hit it by trying to "push" the ball into the proper box.

No, pronation-no nothing.

Once that same student has become more consistent, if they want to develop a better serve they are taught to use a continental grip (which in itself is an "unnatural" act). The reason I say this is because if it was natural for them to hit with a continental grip they would have held the racquet that way the first time they picked up a racquet. It is a fact that most people who play tennis, first serve with a forehand grip, hence this is more natural, and easier for them to achieve immediate success.

However, once they start using a continental grip since they have the same swing path as they did when they were first learning, they will not have success hitting the ball as square as they did when they hit with the forehand grip.

So, whether they are verbally told to pronate or find it out on their own in able to hit the ball squarely is insignificant. The fact of the matter is that they figure out one way or another that they must turn their forearm inside out to hit the ball squarely to achieve the same success they had using the forehand grip, and get the ball in the box.


END OF LESSON BUNGALO. THAT WILL BE $100.00

[vin]

Possible implications from excessive pronation:

Put your anatomy hats on.

There's a bump on the shoulder head of the humerus (upper arm bone) called the greater tubercle. This is where the rotator cuff muscles attach to.

There are two bumps on the top of your shoulder. This is the acromion.

Now, raise your arm out to the side so that it is parallel to the floor. Internally rotate your shoulder so that your palm is facing backwards and your thumb is pointing down. In this position, the greater tubercle is butted up against the acromion and this should prevent you from raising your arm any higher. This butting can impinge the tendons and bursa that are located between the two.

To me, this position is very similar to the end result of pronation, which leads me to believe that an increase in pronation will increase internal shoulder rotation. In turn, this will increase the chances of impingement, which can lead to tendonitis and/or bursitis.

This information is from 'The 7-minute Rotator Cuff Solution' by Joseph Horrigan and Jerry Robinson. An excellent book if you can get ahold of it.

[gmlasam]

According to a publication in http://www.ushsta.org/, there has been some indication that "emphasizing pronation may lead to injury".Which gives further evidence of what BB is referring to.

Beware of Pronation!

The information you are about to read is currently the subject of an interesting debate among some of the world's leading tennis biomechanists and physiologists, including some not cited in this article. Individual interpretation of this information is still ongoing, and the USHSTCA does not present this article as a final answer to the question However, Dr. Groppel's concerns about the cause of shoulder injuries in junior players should be seriously considered.

One of the greatest breakthroughs in tennis teaching in the last 20 years was the discovery of pronation, the outward turn of the forearm, wrist and palm at the end of the service motion that happened so quickly, most observers could not see it.

For many years, tennis teachers told their students to "snap your wrist", which was misconstrued to mean the snapping down and inward of the hand instead of the upward and outward turn. Today, many teachers now say, "high-five" the ball.

The discovery and teaching of pronation and the power it contributes to the serve because of its place at the end of the kinetic chain has not been all positive, however, according to noted biomechanist, Dr. Jack Groppel.

Dr. Groppel believes that an over-emphasis on pronation by teachers and coaches who are accenting this part of the kinetic chain out of proportion to its importance is leading to a dramatic number of shoulder and arm problems, and a scientific study may bear his theory out.

Dr. Bruce Elliot of the University of Western Australia is highly-regarded worldwide for his work on tennis biomechanics and has been a pioneer in the effort to determine what each link in the kinetic chain contributes to overall power.

According to Dr. Elliot and his associates on upper limb segments only, forearm pronation contributed only 5.2% of overall speed on a serve! In essence, there is little or no wrist movement on the serve, forearm pronation causes the hand to turn outward, which means all the hand can do is flex at the finish of the serve.

This article continues with surprising information on how little pronation actually contributes to racquet head speed, where most power on the serve actually comes from, and why emphasizing pronation may lead to injury.

The actual link of this artcle is here, http://www.ushsta.org/COACHES/PUBLICAREA/HSTCPREVIEW/pronprev.htm

[vin]

Here's another thought that may be more agreeable with what BB is saying.

The lower and more to the left of your hand that you hit the ball, the more pronation that will need to occur to hit through it.

For example:

http://www.vinmiller.net/tennis/pictures/roddick_pronation1.JPG

As opposed to hitting the ball more directly above the hand, which would also be higher and is closer to the way Agassi serves.

As the angle between the racquet and forearm decreases, it seems like more emphasis would be placed on pronation. So maybe by simply altering the contact position, more pronation will result without any thought. Hence natural pronation.

Just a thought.

[vin]

According to a publication in http://www.ushsta.org/, there has been some indication that "emphasizing pronation may lead to injury".Which gives further evidence of what BB is referring to.


Good reference. Thanks for posting it.

The 5% contribution is interesting. Elliot's claim is that internal rotation provides the majority of racquet head speed.

Here are two of his articles suggesting so:
http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/212/
http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/202/

[thebeast]

no evidence here. not basing this on much.

I have a good kick serve. I never think to pronate. However, i think its something that you might have to be concious about when you learn it, but after doing it awhile it becomes natural. Kind of like when you learn an instrument or something, at first its unnatural but you once become comfortable it becomes second nature.

[Marius_Hancu]

Now, raise your arm out to the side so that it is parallel to the floor. Internally rotate your shoulder so that your palm is facing backwards and your thumb is pointing down. In this position, the greater tubercle is butted up against the acromion and this should prevent you from raising your arm any higher.

Damn, I must be a very flexible individual:-))

With no internal rotation, I was of course able to lift my arm vertically close to my head. Nothing special here, I guess. Thus 90 degree lift.

With the internal location you mention, I was still able to lift the arm 30 degree or so, from the horizontal. Thus there's clearly a limitation there, but I am not totally prevented from raising my arm higher.

Joking aside, very interesting information. I'll process.

[Marius_Hancu]

According to a publication in http://www.ushsta.org/, there has been some indication that "emphasizing pronation may lead to injury".Which gives further evidence of what BB is referring to.


Good reference. Thanks for posting it.

The 5% contribution is interesting. Elliot's claim is that internal rotation provides the majority of racquet head speed.

Here are two of his articles suggesting so:
http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/212/
http://www.coachesinfo.com/category/tennis/202/

Yes, that reference from ushsta is useful. So are yours.

A very similar commentary to your first reference here I found in a chapter written by the same Elliot and Saviano in the book World Class Tennis Technique, p. 212. They mention:



The sequence that generally builds from the court up is as follows:

- Leg drive
- Trunk rotation (produces approximately 10 to 20 percent of the racket speed at impact)
- Upper-arm elevation
- Forearm extension, upper arm-internal rotation (produces approximately 40 percent of the racket speed at impact) and forearm pronation
- Hand flexion (produces approximately 30 percent of the racket speed at impact)


Thus this seems to confirm the 5% contribution for pronation.

However, I wonder about the terminology used. Is the "hand flexion" the "wrist snap" or what? 30% is quite something.

[Frenchie]

I am learning the kick serve and I can tell you, the toss is key. Toss to the left and slightly behind you.