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dima
10-09-2007, 06:01 PM
Ok, after watching the news today and watching the Bill O'Reilly's show I realize that Americans have no real arguments against illegal immigration, so prove me wrong please.

They say Mexico is not doing enough to stop civilians from crossing the border. While that might be true, what do you really expect them to do? Mexico is a democracy, so they can't make people not leave the country, what else can they do? Fine them for leaving the country? That's absurd.

Also today, they were saying that giving Illegals in New York a drivers license is not right and they're funding terrorism. Also ridiculous. I might be wrong here but all of the terrorists on the planes that crashed in NY were all documented and legal here, it's not like they wait for the government to give out drivers licenses so they can attack. Also, you have your government to blame for not regularizing immigrants before, now that it's gotten out of hand, you have no choice but to legalize pretty much everyone.

Your thoughts?

fed_the_savior
10-09-2007, 06:04 PM
build a fence ?

dima
10-09-2007, 06:06 PM
build a fence ?

Do you honestly think isolating ourselves will help? It may reduce it a little, but ultimately, it's not going to solve it.

Shahar26
10-09-2007, 06:15 PM
I hate Penn and Teller, but I just saw a great show they did on Showtime, about illegal immigrants and about all the money that is being spent trying to stop them.

I have to hand it to them, they did a great job....

you can watch a clip here, but the really good stuff is in the show.

They built a 10ft replica of the fence the government is building along the border.
It took them like 10+ hours (if I remember correctly), then they had 3 groups of 2 Mexicans try to get through.

Group 1 to climb above.
Group 2 to cross below (digging).
Group 3 to go through (using tools).

The group that climbed was last to cross, I think it was in like 3 minutes.....

http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/prevepisodes.do?episodeid=s5/immigration

P.S
I couldn't agree more....

10sfreak
10-09-2007, 06:51 PM
I think the solution to the problem is pretty much what everyone knows to be true except the dolts in Washington: build a fence/wall, patrol it with armed guards. Don't really see why it wouldn't work. You're not going to stop everybody, but you could sure stem the tide...

dima
10-09-2007, 07:11 PM
I think the solution to the problem is pretty much what everyone knows to be true except the dolts in Washington: build a fence/wall, patrol it with armed guards. Don't really see why it wouldn't work. You're not going to stop everybody, but you could sure stem the tide...

Alright, think of all the money that would be spent on it? Money that could be better spent elsewhere, it's not like we're swimming in money here.

What I think we should do is:

-Legalize everyone who is here and hasn't committed a felony.
-Force employers to check social security numbers, and other documents
-Do a background check on every legalized immigrant and make sure that person is not a criminal.
-Gradually open up more spots for immigrants

If employers actually checked for SS numbers and were fined heavily if they didn't, I think that would stop illegals from working here. But stopping them from entering? Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that.

Shahar26
10-09-2007, 07:33 PM
Alright, think of all the money that would be spent on it? Money that could be better spent elsewhere, it's not like we're swimming in money here.

What I think we should do is:

-Legalize everyone who is here and hasn't committed a felony.
-Force employers to check social security numbers, and other documents
-Do a background check on every legalized immigrant and make sure that person is not a criminal.
-Gradually open up more spots for immigrants

If employers actually checked for SS numbers and were fined heavily if they didn't, I think that would stop illegals from working here. But stopping them from entering? Unfortunately there's nothing we can do about that.


Fact: you cannot stop illegal immigration!

Illegals will ALWAYS find work, there will ALWAYS be other people willing to hire them (even if it's just people that are legal now, but were illegal at some point).

It's not like people cross the border from Mexico to get high tech jobs, they cross and work jobs that American don't want to do (like build the fence around the border, they actually had illegal immigrants working on the fence!! (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/03/29/news/top_stories/2_81_113_28_07.txt))

angharad
10-09-2007, 07:42 PM
"Illegal" immigration is not technically considered a crime. Even if caught, it's a civil case - not a criminal one. Using forged, doctored, or stolen documentation to obtain benefits or work in the US is a crime, and that's what the focus should be on.

Shahar26
10-09-2007, 08:11 PM
Wouldn't it make more sense to take all the money that was (and will be) wasted on this useless fence and use it to provide free or affordable Health Care more citizens of this country (starting with kids and going up).

Golden Retriever
10-09-2007, 08:57 PM
Democrazy, I love it! HAHAHAHAHA!

Rui
10-09-2007, 10:36 PM
What I think we should do is:

-Legalize everyone who is here and hasn't committed a felony.
-Force employers to check social security numbers, and other documents
-Do a background check on every legalized immigrant and make sure that person is not a criminal.
-Gradually open up more spots for immigrants


Do not legalize everyone. Do the rest however. If they can't work, maybe they'll go back home.

Deuce
10-09-2007, 10:55 PM
An offshoot of the topic:

Everyone should know at least this:
'Homeland Security' is far less about protecting the country against terrorism than it is a government public relations campaign.
It's like any other type of marketing: First, convince people there is a need, then - by twisting the facts and telling half-truths - convince them that you are filling the need.

Right now, a given Canadian who committed a petty crime 30 years ago is not permitted to enter the U.S. without first purchasing a $500 'waiver'. The waiver is granted at the discretion of bureaucrats. We're talking about something as petty as stealing a chocolate bar and being charged with theft - decades ago. The U.S. government considers such a person a threat to their country, and, by not allowing this person entry, calls this 'protecting the country'.
Meanwhile, any terrorist can cross the border at one of several thousand unpatrolled, unseen points.

It ain't protection, people - it's simply a marketing campaign.

tennis-n-sc
10-10-2007, 03:19 AM
Ok, after watching the news today and watching the Bill O'Reilly's show I realize that Americans have no real arguments against illegal immigration, so prove me wrong please.

They say Mexico is not doing enough to stop civilians from crossing the border. While that might be true, what do you really expect them to do? Mexico is a democracy, so they can't make people not leave the country, what else can they do? Fine them for leaving the country? That's absurd.

Also today, they were saying that giving Illegals in New York a drivers license is not right and they're funding terrorism. Also ridiculous. I might be wrong here but all of the terrorists on the planes that crashed in NY were all documented and legal here, it's not like they wait for the government to give out drivers licenses so they can attack. Also, you have your government to blame for not regularizing immigrants before, now that it's gotten out of hand, you have no choice but to legalize pretty much everyone.

Your thoughts?

First, we are supposd to be a nation of laws. As such, we can't pick and choose which ones we enforce. There are very clear and strict laws against illegal immigration. Congress has ignored the very laws they passed for so long it is almost hopelessly out of hand. There are second and thrid generation illegals here living off our liberal benefit system and demanding their "rights". There are very large segments of our cities that have become essentially an extension of the old homeland, mostly Mexico. These people have made very little effort assimilate into the American culture. There are exceptions, of course, but as a whole, most appear to simply want a piece of Mexico in the U.S. I think this is what most Americans resent. Middle America is all for immigration, but make it leagal. Our system cannot afford to pay for benefits given to illegals, plain and simple. I will not vote for another politician that doesn't swear to fix the problem and then do it.

dima
10-10-2007, 05:18 AM
Do not legalize everyone. Do the rest however. If they can't work, maybe they'll go back home.

Did you not hear what happenned to Riverside? They did exactly that. Employers who hired immigrants were fined heavily. Guess what happened?

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7D91331F935A1575AC0A9619C8B 63

dima
10-10-2007, 05:21 AM
First, we are supposd to be a nation of laws. As such, we can't pick and choose which ones we enforce. There are very clear and strict laws against illegal immigration. Congress has ignored the very laws they passed for so long it is almost hopelessly out of hand. There are second and thrid generation illegals here living off our liberal benefit system and demanding their "rights". There are very large segments of our cities that have become essentially an extension of the old homeland, mostly Mexico. These people have made very little effort assimilate into the American culture. There are exceptions, of course, but as a whole, most appear to simply want a piece of Mexico in the U.S. I think this is what most Americans resent. Middle America is all for immigration, but make it leagal. Our system cannot afford to pay for benefits given to illegals, plain and simple. I will not vote for another politician that doesn't swear to fix the problem and then do it.

While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is rules weren't enforced in first place, so you can't just start enforcing rules now, otherwise the economy will collapse.
We must work with what we have.

10sfreak
10-10-2007, 05:24 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to take all the money that was (and will be) wasted on this useless fence and use it to provide free or affordable Health Care more citizens of this country (starting with kids and going up).
No. (10 characters.)

tennis-n-sc
10-10-2007, 05:36 AM
While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is rules weren't enforced in first place, so you can't just start enforcing rules now, otherwise the economy will collapse.
We must work with what we have.

Well, that remains to be seen. Those jobs will be filled. Of course the big businesses profitting from the illegal immigrant labor pool will have to adjust. And, yes, the most simple solution to the problem is to begin to enforce the laws in the books. That was the problem with the past proposal for immigration reform. No one truly believed the new laws would be enforced either.

Serve em Up
10-10-2007, 05:55 AM
Dima ,

I have a lot of respect for immigrants. Many come here, apply for citizenship, work hard, learn english and follow our laws. Our country is rich beyond measure because of them . They came , they learned from one another, they learned english, they assimilated into the US melting pot. Irish, Italians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indians to name a few. This mass invasion of illegals is different.

I have little respect for illegal immigrants. They make life more difficult for the legal immigrants. They push down wages, and because of their sheer numbers, people's perspectives of legal immigrants are tarnished by the presence of so many illegals.

Lastly and here are some of my biggest problems with the massive flood of illegal immigration. The vast majority illegal immigrants are poor and under educated. Face it, Mexico, El Salvador , and Honduras ae not sending us their best and brightest. The sheer numbers (12 million at last count) if given amnesty and full rights as US citizens are large enough to immediately shift the demographics and voting patterns in many local and US voting districts. That is tantamount to a takeover of our country by illegal invaders. Secondly, these people have children. By some goofy law, anyone born here is automatically a US citizen, even if the parents are illegal. All they have to do is come here, have kids, and they can stay because the US can't deport the parents of a US citizen? What about the drain on tax funded services. Why do we US citizens have to provide education and health care for 12 million poor under eductated illegals. These people are the responsibilty of their home countries. Why are'nt the hispanic advocates pushing for more opportunity in these home countries. Illlegals claim that anyone objecting to their presence in the US is a racist and against immigration. I 'm against uncontrolled illegal immigration. I'm against seeing all of the store signs in my community go from english only in 1990 to spanish only in 2007. I'm against my waiting in the emergency room to get me appendix out for 6 hours while 25 illegals without insurance are in front of me for care ranging from sniffles to broken bones. I will end up paying for them through higher taxes and higher insurance premiums.

These illegals come here and protest against our government and racism. Why aren't they in their home countries protesting against the governement and for more opportunity. I welcome immigrants. I don't welcome a huge flood of foreign invaders that suck resources, change the american culture, and change the political landscape overnight. It is not right or fair to the vast number of US citizens.

Supernatural_Serve
10-10-2007, 06:35 AM
^ That pretty much sums it up for most Americans.

MIGHTY MANFRED THE WONDER
10-10-2007, 07:35 AM
What is fair? Is it fair a guy waits and follows the law, maybe never getting in? or just jumps the line and is rewarded because of sheer numbers?

Are we prepared to just shug our shoulders, and figure "That's life"? or wait for the pinheads in Washington DC to do something?

Once the border cities were pretty easy going- there almost was no difference one side or the other- both dusty holes. Now you really don't visit Southern Arizona ranches, they are under attack from runners who don't want any interference from ranchers or agents. It would not take you 30 minutes to run across some illegal activity- you don't really have to take ANY effort to "hunt or track", there is just that much.

I guess some of you smart guys will have to explain away why a family of generations has to give up a way of life with your little justifactions and shrugging of shoulders.

If you get shot in one of the National parks that are a favorite crossing area (you can tell from the full diapers and Kentucky fried chicken boxes) they will take you to the hospital emergency room which is overrun with illegals waiting for free service, and you will die on the floor. Honest.

forzainter
10-10-2007, 07:36 AM
i saw on reuters a couple of weeks ago, 3 underage mexicans drove a car into USA, dont know how they got through the border, and then they were stopped by a policeman and while he was handcuffing them he left his car door open and they stole it and drove back to Mexico

dima
10-10-2007, 07:45 AM
Lastly and here are some of my biggest problems with the massive flood of illegal immigration. The vast majority illegal immigrants are poor and under educated. Face it, Mexico, El Salvador , and Honduras ae not sending us their best and brightest. The sheer numbers (12 million at last count) if given amnesty and full rights as US citizens are large enough to immediately shift the demographics and voting patterns in many local and US voting districts.

I don't think they were ever considering making them citizens. Thus making voting not possible in most states.


Secondly, these people have children. By some goofy law, anyone born here is automatically a US citizen, even if the parents are illegal. All they have to do is come here, have kids, and they can stay because the US can't deport the parents of a US citizen?

Wrong, the parents can still be deported.

What about the drain on tax funded services. Why do we US citizens have to provide education and health care for 12 million poor under eductated illegals.

If I'm not mistaken, they pay taxes too, where does that money go? Since most of them don't have tax ids or social security numbers, they don't ever get that money back.

These people are the responsibilty of their home countries. Why are'nt the hispanic advocates pushing for more opportunity in these home countries. Illlegals claim that anyone objecting to their presence in the US is a racist and against immigration. I 'm against uncontrolled illegal immigration. I'm against seeing all of the store signs in my community go from english only in 1990 to spanish only in 2007. I'm against my waiting in the emergency room to get me appendix out for 6 hours while 25 illegals without insurance are in front of me for care ranging from sniffles to broken bones. I will end up paying for them through higher taxes and higher insurance premiums.

And so are we all, that is why we must do something about it. You either enforce the current laws, or you create new ones that can be enforced.

These illegals come here and protest against our government and racism. Why aren't they in their home countries protesting against the governement and for more opportunity. I welcome immigrants. I don't welcome a huge flood of foreign invaders that suck resources, change the american culture, and change the political landscape overnight. It is not right or fair to the vast number of US citizens.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, I also don't support illegal immigration but they're here. My family migrated here from Brazil 10 years ago and we came here legally, applied for a green card and got one. So I know how Americans feel like, and how legal immigrants feel like.

richw76
10-10-2007, 11:12 AM
Dima ,

I have a lot of respect for immigrants. Many come here, apply for citizenship, work hard, learn english and follow our laws. Our country is rich beyond measure because of them . They came , they learned from one another, they learned english, they assimilated into the US melting pot. Irish, Italians, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Indians to name a few. This mass invasion of illegals is different.

I have little respect for illegal immigrants. They make life more difficult for the legal immigrants. They push down wages, and because of their sheer numbers, people's perspectives of legal immigrants are tarnished by the presence of so many illegals.

Lastly and here are some of my biggest problems with the massive flood of illegal immigration. The vast majority illegal immigrants are poor and under educated. Face it, Mexico, El Salvador , and Honduras ae not sending us their best and brightest. The sheer numbers (12 million at last count) if given amnesty and full rights as US citizens are large enough to immediately shift the demographics and voting patterns in many local and US voting districts. That is tantamount to a takeover of our country by illegal invaders. Secondly, these people have children. By some goofy law, anyone born here is automatically a US citizen, even if the parents are illegal. All they have to do is come here, have kids, and they can stay because the US can't deport the parents of a US citizen? What about the drain on tax funded services. Why do we US citizens have to provide education and health care for 12 million poor under eductated illegals. These people are the responsibilty of their home countries. Why are'nt the hispanic advocates pushing for more opportunity in these home countries. Illlegals claim that anyone objecting to their presence in the US is a racist and against immigration. I 'm against uncontrolled illegal immigration. I'm against seeing all of the store signs in my community go from english only in 1990 to spanish only in 2007. I'm against my waiting in the emergency room to get me appendix out for 6 hours while 25 illegals without insurance are in front of me for care ranging from sniffles to broken bones. I will end up paying for them through higher taxes and higher insurance premiums.

These illegals come here and protest against our government and racism. Why aren't they in their home countries protesting against the governement and for more opportunity. I welcome immigrants. I don't welcome a huge flood of foreign invaders that suck resources, change the american culture, and change the political landscape overnight. It is not right or fair to the vast number of US citizens.

^ That pretty much sums it up for most Americans.

The problem is, as I see it, illigal immigration is Great for businesses. Due to reduced labor cost and the ability to transfer most of the costliest parts of being an employer to taxpayers. For example no 401k or health insurance to pay.

I grew up in Miami and knew a few kids who's parents were illigals and they were great people and very happy and proud to be here. Also, my current lawn guy was illigal for several years. Great guy, runs a great small business, and his english is now perfect with an accento.

I'm not sure what a good and fair solution is but the government, and Us as citizens have allowed them to do nothing for too long, and we need to act.

Also, Using the word invasion is not unfair Serve em Up. There are several west coast fringe groups talking about annexing California/Texas back into Mexico. "La raza" is one I believe.

My only fear is if we aren't careful about the laws we create we may create a permanent "3rd class" of people without full rights, and we could create some of the unrest we are trying to curb.

Supernatural_Serve
10-10-2007, 03:29 PM
I'm not sure what a good and fair solution is but the government, and Us as citizens have allowed them to do nothing for too long, and we need to act.The good and fair thing to do is enforce existing law and enact new law that puts employers in prison for hiring illegals and confiscates their business assets for engaging in a criminal enterprise which benefits them and the illegals and burdens everyone else.

The illegal problem will be over immediately and then we can address the security problem with fences, biometrics, and other technologies.

dima
10-10-2007, 03:33 PM
The good and fair thing to do is enforce existing law and enact new law that puts employers in prison for hiring illegals and confiscates their business assets for engaging in a criminal enterprise which benefits them and the illegals and burdens everyone else.

The illegal problem will be over immediately and then we can address the security problem with fences, biometrics, and other technologies.

It's not as easy as that, if that were to happen, the economy would collapse. You need these immigrants more than you think buddy.

tennis-n-sc
10-10-2007, 03:45 PM
It's not as easy as that, if that were to happen, the economy would collapse. You need these immigrants more than you think buddy.

As I have stated, no one knows this for sure. I believe this an argument being presented by those that profit most from undocumented, and usually much cheaper, workers. There would likely be a hike in labor costs for the legal workers but taxes would be paid. That is just the cost of doing business. As it is, the economy of several states is collasping under the benefits collected by the illegals.

dima
10-10-2007, 04:43 PM
As it is, the economy of several states is collasping under the benefits collected by the illegals.

Link? got something to back that up?

Dedans Penthouse
10-10-2007, 04:47 PM
YANQUI, GO HOME!

Supernatural_Serve
10-10-2007, 05:30 PM
It's not as easy as that, if that were to happen, the economy would collapse. You need these immigrants more than you think buddy.No it wouldn't. That's fantasy propaganda.

The businesses would either need to change their model, leverage technology and productivity better, pay better wages to legals, or fail.

Why should businesses be propped up (effectively subsidized) by cheap illegal labor?

The industrialists said the same thing a century ago when unions formed. They said they would be put out of business and the economy would fail if they were forced to pay a fair wage for a standard work week. They all said they would fail and everyone would be out of work. It didn't happen.

Of course some were, and it was good that they failed because better more efficient companies who paid fair wages for fair labor strengthened America.

Nothing good is coming from droves of illegals coming to America to work for crappy wages and sending that money home largely to Mexico. Maybe the economy simply doesn't need them here in the first place and if the market values what these illegals produce, then let the marketplace sort it out by setting prices where they belong.

This kind of subsidy benefits the very few, an interest group (illegals and those that hire them, and those that consume their output for cheap), and foreign economies such as Mexico where the wages are sent. It burdens social services, infrastructure, schools, taxes, etc. tremendously.

So, let's see the real costs of illegal aliens. What's their value and what is their total cost burden.

In my opinion, the entire economy will improve when this highly inefficient mess is fixed by a free market economy.

Can't produce an apple at a decent price, then stop doing it. Consumers want apples badly enough, then pay a fair price for one. Can't find someone to pick it? then find a smarter way to pick it, or pay a better wage, eventually someone legal will take that work. Its that simple.

I don't even want to get started about the farce that is farm subsidies that supposedly keep food prices low and if they were removed, catastrophe would follow.

You are trying to use the same kind of arguments that all protectionist types who want to protect an industry, a labor cost model, and its profits.

You want to know how to protect a border. Go to Mexico. See what happens when Guatemalans enter Mexico illegally. They are shot dead. That's what Mexico thinks about illegal immigration.

alwaysatnet
10-10-2007, 06:57 PM
S.S. ....You said it all and said it all right. Our economy would collapse because the people that operate leaf blowers and work in kitchens wouldn't be around any more if we enforced our laws?
That's very funny. And by funny, I mean biased and absurd.
There have been lots of studies by legitimate unbiased sources(Harvard School of Economics,for one) that show the true costs of "cheap" labor.

The fact is an illegal worker and his family take much more out of our economy than they can possibly put in. You add up the costs for schooling, health care, social services, the strain on our courts and jails, etc. and it should be obvious to anyone.

Add to that the fact that money taken out of our economy and sent back to Mexico by illegals accounts for nearly four billion dollars per year and is Mexico's second biggest source of income.
Who's kidding who? Illegals cost this nation plenty and we are under no obligation to let anyone that wants, to simply sneak into this country, claim rights they don't deserve and live off the largese of the middle class taxpayer primarily.
And by legalizing a huge block of potential voters, you in essence have endorsed a bloodless coup.
I can see what's in this for some greedy bottom line businessman. But's what in this push towards legalization for the average American? Nothing!

drakulie
10-10-2007, 07:00 PM
I realize that Americans have no real arguments against illegal immigration, so prove me wrong please.

Your thoughts?

Prove you wrong? It's in your own OP>>>> It's *ILLEGAL**.

dima
10-10-2007, 07:07 PM
Prove you wrong? It's in your own OP>>>> It's *ILLEGAL**.

Right, if it's illegal why didn't the government take any measures? Seems like it's not as illegal as we all thought LOL.

SS, read this article please

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7D91331F935A1575AC0A9619C8B 63

drakulie
10-10-2007, 07:14 PM
Right, if it's illegal why didn't the government take any measures? Seems like it's not as illegal as we all thought LOL.

Just because out government has chosen to turn their cheeks, doesn't make it legal. It's illegal. Period. Until they change the current law, it is illegal.

It's illegal to speed, yet millions of drivers do it every day, all day long, for long stretches at a time, and the vast majority get away with it. This doesn't make it legal.

It's illegal to jay walk, yet millions of people do it everyday and get away with it. This doesn't make it legal.

etc,

etc,

etc.

By the way, as for the Mexican Government, they actually hand out flyers, maps, and at times give aid to illegals who are trying to enter this country>>>ILLEGALLY.

dima
10-10-2007, 07:18 PM
Just because out government has chosen to turn their cheeks, doesn't make it legal. It's illegal. Period. Until they change the current law, it is illegal.

It's illegal to speed, yet millions of drivers do it every day, all day long, for long stretches at a time, and the vast majority get away with it. This doesn't make it legal.

It's illegal to jay walk, yet millions of people do it everyday and get away with it. This doesn't make it legal.

etc,

etc,

etc.

By the way, as for the Mexican Government, they actually hand out flyers, maps, and at times give aid to illegals who are trying to enter this country>>>ILLEGALLY.

Got proof? Somehow I doubt that.

Also, speeding or "jay walking" does not affect the economy if not dealt with, immigration does, thus making it a little more complicated than just speeding.

alwaysatnet
10-10-2007, 07:21 PM
We all know that the fat cats that want a work force of uneducated compliant low wage workers have done all they can to sabotage our immigration laws.
But our laws still remain and are even starting to be enforced, against the will of Bush and his helpers, in some cases.
Assuming Hillary doesn't become our next president (I pray) I think we will see even more begrudging compliance with our immigration laws by the new president. This issue won't die.

alwaysatnet
10-10-2007, 07:24 PM
Got proof? Somehow I doubt that.

Also, speeding or "jay walking" does not affect the economy if not dealt with, immigration does, thus making it a little more complicated than just speeding.The fact is that laws are laws whether they are strictly enforced or not.
Please don't make a simple comparison into something it isn't trying to be.
The point is that laws exist whether they get enforced or not. Not whether jaywalking is like immigration in any way.

drakulie
10-10-2007, 07:26 PM
Got proof? Somehow I doubt that.

Also, speeding or "jay walking" does not affect the economy if not dealt with, immigration does, thus making it a little more complicated than just speeding.

Got proof of what? Jay walking? Speeding? and whether it's illegal? Or whether most peopel get away with it? Or do you want proof about the mexican government? If it is the latter, do a search>>> you will find it.

As for the rest of your post, whether or not it has an affect on the economy, the bottom line is, it is illegal. That is your proof, and the question you asked in your OP.

dima
10-10-2007, 07:34 PM
It's illegal, yet President Clinton in 2001 gave the opportunity to millions of immigrants to get a green card. Funny!

Drakulie, what would be your suggestion then? I know it's illegal, never denied that, but this issue is far more complicated than what you think. They can't just deport everyone.

drakulie
10-10-2007, 07:36 PM
Drakulie, what would be your suggestion then?

Deport all of them, and have them stand in line like everyone else trying to enter this country legally.

Finish putting up the fence that has already been approved and appropriated by Congress. The money is already there.

WildVolley
10-10-2007, 07:44 PM
While I agree with most of what you said, the problem is rules weren't enforced in first place, so you can't just start enforcing rules now, otherwise the economy will collapse.
We must work with what we have.

I realize you're trying to be provocative, but you sound remarkably silly.

The US economy isn't now, nor has it ever been, reliant on cheap illegal Mexican labor. This labor does lower the costs of some industries, but it also imposes a huge social cost in the US in terms of education, health care, infrastructure, and crime.

In Southern California, a high percentage of the students in many school districts are illegal, or the "legal" children of illegal immigrants. These children have difficulty in school and drop out at extremely high rates. The high drop out rate is associated with a whole host of social pathologies. For example, the crime rate of children of illegals is higher than those born to citizens.

The bad guy in this story is the country of Mexico. Mexico's corrupt ruling class refuses to institute market reforms that would allow the Mexico to produce jobs for its own citizens. Allowing Mexico to dump its excess labor on the US isn't good for the US or Mexico.

alwaysatnet
10-10-2007, 07:56 PM
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research4d63 Here is a nice laundry list of the cost to this nation from "cheap" illegal labor, from a California perspective, mostly.

Anybody that truly believes that illegal immigration represents a net gain to this country either is a fool or has spent too long reading Mexican government handouts while waiting for the line in the tunnel under the border to move along.

drakulie
10-10-2007, 08:08 PM
^^^^ It's amazing how uninformed people are.

Supernatural_Serve
10-11-2007, 03:09 AM
Right, if it's illegal why didn't the government take any measures? Seems like it's not as illegal as we all thought LOL.

SS, read this article please

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7D91331F935A1575AC0A9619C8B 63I read it. It highlights SOME of the issues associated with illegals and their impact on communities that try to live cheap off of them, and what happens when they can't do that anymore.

The poor illegal Guatamalen hair dresser doesn't have anymore illegals hair to cut. boo-hoo. The sorry homeowner with a house for 50 to live in, can't violate local housing ordinances and collect anymore illegal rent from illegals. whine, whine and sob.

But, as usual, the liberal leftwing NY Times forgot to mention the impact of illegals in that community on:

schools
social services
local government agencies
real estate taxes
hospitals
crime
gang activity
violation of local ordinances
quality of life
crowded streets
noise pollution
illegal, unregistered, uninsured cars
illegal residences


and didn't interview one person in that community who works in those industries.

I can sum up the article as follows: Here's a small part of the story that happens when illegals are forced out of a community from a liberal left wing nut job's perspective.

winks
10-11-2007, 03:18 AM
Regarding the term "illegal immigrant" - isn't the proper term "illegal alien". I don't know why this new term ever came into public acceptance.

If you didn't come into this country legally, you are not an immigrant.

Supernatural_Serve
10-11-2007, 03:29 AM
Regarding the term "illegal immigrant" - isn't the proper term "illegal alien". I don't know how this term ever came into public acceptance.

If you didn't come into this country legally, you are not an immigrant.I believe "alien" would be the proper legal term as in illegal alien or non-resident alien.

Be careful using that term colloquially, you could be labelled as vulgar or even racist!

eagle
10-11-2007, 03:38 AM
From dictionary.com:

1. a person who migrates to another country, usually for permanent residence.
2. an organism found in a new habitat

Definition 2 sounds funny. :)

I think the "illegal immigrant" changed along with lots of English words/phrases with the political correctness euphemism syndrome.

I remember a comedy bit by George Carlin about 10 years ago where he was frustrated by how folks were replacing simple direct easy to understand words with multiple syllable phrases to lessen the harshness of the word. Example he gave was shellshock. In the early world wars, it was called just that: shellshock. Plain and simple. After the Vietnam War, George noted that folks started calling the condition Battle Fatigue or War Neurosis. So from 2 syllables to 4. Then it became Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. So you go from 2 syllables to 4 then to 8 syllables. He says by the time you complete the term, you've lost the punch of what it is or what you are talking about.

There's a fascination with multiple syllables. An example he used was Boss. It later transformed to a number of incarnations like President, Chief Executive Officer, etc. Then you have the Vice President. Then Secretary to the Vice President. Then Assistant Secretary to the Vice President. Then you have the Executive Assistant to the Secretary of the Vice President. Then Assistant to the Executive Assistant to the Secretary of the Vice President .... George remarked though that although having a gazillion syllables sound impressive, the more syllables you have on your title the less important or lower you are on the totem pole.

Another example? From Trashman to Environment Sanitation Engineer :)

Sorry to digress.

Anyway, yes I remember Illegal Alien being the norm vs. Illegal Immigrant for a very long time.

Thanks,
eagle

Serve em Up
10-11-2007, 03:46 AM
I believe that you willl see the states becoming more actively involvd in the process of cleaning up this mess. Arizona has a new law severely punishing firms that hire illegals. It will hit the construction trades very heavily starting in January 2008.

Illegals do more laborer work than Americans give them credit for. They are'nt use to welfare, food stamps,subsidized housing and social programs that have helped to create a permanent underclass in America. They would rather work hard at low wage jobs to support their families than sit on the steps and collect a check like many of the poor in America. I understand this statement may get me in trouble with a lot of folks but look at post Katrina New Orleans. Unemployement is rampant but a huge flood of illegal hispanics came there for the opportunity to clean up and work construction jobs. They are getting things done. The locals just sit around and complain. Anyway, different topic.

The solution isn't to deport them all. We need to assimilate them slowly while at the same time slowing the massive flood coming over the border. We need to increase the costs to businesses that hire illegals ( through fines) so that they don't exploit the benefits of the wage difference beteen an illegal and hiring a documented worker.

Yes, prices will go up for your apples, grapes, lawn mowing, car washing, and other services typically dominated by ilegals. However, these people work hard and and it isn't right to allow a third tier servant society to develop. These people have families and children. If wages don't go up, we will pay for them like we do now through free tax payer paid services. I would rather force employers to pay a true market wage, pay more for goods and services where necessary and leave government assistance out of it. I rather they be contributing tax payers than a drain on tax funded services.

The only other thing we could to do help them is to ban spanish from all government printed materials. Promoting spanish provides them a crutch that keeps them from learning english. They can't be successful in a meaningful way in America without english. Allowing them to function in society without learning english simply perpetuates their staus as an underclass. If advocates truly want to help them, they should support english only for America. It helps them to assimilate to american culture and to earn better wages.

I agree that immigrants and illegals should not be defined by the same word. Alien is good, but in today's PC society calling it like it is can get you in big trouble. Especially if you're a public figure an end up on the Communist News Network. CNN.

tennis-n-sc
10-11-2007, 04:05 AM
I believe that you willl see the states becoming more actively involvd in the process of cleaning up this mess. Arizona has a new law severely punishing firms that hire illegals. It will hit the construction trades very heavily starting in January 2008.

Illegals do more laborer work than Americans give them credit for. They are'nt use to welfare, food stamps,subsidized housing and social programs that have helped to create a permanent underclass in America. They would rather work hard at low wage jobs to support their families than sit on the steps and collect a check like many of the poor in America. I understand this statement may get me in trouble with a lot of folks but look at post Katrina New Orleans. Unemployement is rampant but a huge flood of illegal hispanics came there for the opportunity to clean up and work construction jobs. They are getting things done. The locals just sit around and complain. Anyway, different topic.

The solution isn't to deport them all. We need to assimilate them slowly while at the same time slowing the massive flood coming over the border. We need to increase the costs to businesses that hire illegals ( through fines) so that they don't exploit the benefits of the wage difference beteen an illegal and hiring a documented worker.

Yes, prices will go up for your apples, grapes, lawn mowing, car washing, and other services typically dominated by ilegals. However, these people work hard and and it isn't right to allow a third tier servant society to develop. These people have families and children. If wages don't go up, we will pay for them like we do now through free tax payer paid services. I would rather force employers to pay a true market wage, pay more for goods and services where necessary and leave government assistance out of it. I rather they be contributing tax payers than a drain on tax funded services.

The only other thing we could to do help them is to ban spanish from all government printed materials. Promoting spanish provides them a crutch that keeps them from learning english. They can't be successful in a meaningful way in America without english. Allowing them to function in society without learning english simply perpetuates their staus as an underclass. If advocates truly want to help them, they should support english only for America. It helps them to assimilate to american culture and to earn better wages.

I agree that immigrants and illegals should not be defined by the same word. Alien is good, but in today's PC society calling it like it is can get you in big trouble. Especially if you're a public figure an end up on the Communist News Network. CNN.

I don't know how far it will go, but the SC legislature is attempting to get other states to join them in demanding the U.S. government enforce existing laws or each state can take over and pass and enforce their own. Seems there is something in the Constitution that authorizes this prodcedure. It is a shame that any elected congressman or congresswoman can turn their back on enforcing the very laws they have sworn to uphold. In my opinion, they have ceased working for the people and now work for the money, by the money and, unfortunantely, in the money, supporting big business all the way while ignoring the very people that put them in office.