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ananda
10-09-2007, 11:15 PM
i spent an hour today working on the 1hbh. my first session. felt good. but there are still technical doubts. i have a trainer who is not techn sound, his own bh is poor. so i have read from various places and need to get doubts clear.

1. trainer says "throw your racket forward". is that correct?
2. one video said keep wrist locked. yes/no. if i throw rack forward, then i cant keep wrist locked.
3. some videos and pics show rack face high at takeback. my trainer says keep rack head low.
vids of gasquet and henin show high racket face at start then it loops down in a C like motion. which is right?
btw, when i lock wrist racket face goes high.

i found keeping the wrist locked usually gave a better stroke. i try only moving shoulder, but trainer criticizes that and asks me to throw rack forward.

Added later: I just checked earlier threads, some people have suggested locked wrists. i once again checked the ipodtennis video, the players says keep buttcap facing down at start, so it seems high racket face is correct.

thx.

herosol
10-09-2007, 11:19 PM
1. i guess its right? im sort of like swinging my arm, and i guess it is like "throwing it foward"

2. no. not necessarily. look at many 1hbh's. federer, gasquet. all have some wrist action

3. doesnt this depend on ball height at contact?

ananda
10-09-2007, 11:29 PM
i have corrected the OP. it is racket face high or low at takeback.
herosol: i have checked various videos, of Fed/Henin and Gasquet, sorry i am unable to study the wrist even in slow motion in order to determine if its locked or not.

Seifersquall1
10-10-2007, 07:36 AM
Just keep the wrist firm.

Jonny S&V
10-10-2007, 08:13 AM
i have corrected the OP. it is racket face high or low at takeback.
herosol: i have checked various videos, of Fed/Henin and Gasquet, sorry i am unable to study the wrist even in slow motion in order to determine if its locked or not.

Depends. If you want to hit loopy topspin, then the wrist can't be locked. It is all a matter of preference when it comes to take back. I say that you should copy the takeback of James Blake or Amelie Mauresmo, straight back until you get better and more comfortable with it.

lkdog
10-10-2007, 08:26 AM
Wrist is locked at contact. It rolls over naturally on follow assuming you are using an Eastern BH grip.

Study Henin. Tremendous form.

fuzz nation
10-10-2007, 08:46 AM
Some of those cues like "throw the racquet forward" are not absolutes. A good teacher needs to use the right ideas to get a student going in the right direction, but they change from one student to the next.

I was working on a one-hander last winter and my teacher told me to "hit around the outside of the ball". He was only using this idea to help me fix my swingpath. Take a leap of faith with the input you're getting from a trainer on the court with you and see where it leads. Sometimes you can talk the idea over and agree on something that makes better sense for you. A good teacher is always looking to make that light go on in your head so that you can understand what works for you.

cliff
10-10-2007, 03:17 PM
Have a look at the free one handed back video clips of Henin Blake Gasquet Federer and many more at www.procomparetennis.net

RoddickAce
10-10-2007, 03:41 PM
O think Henin and Gasquet use an extreme grip. And cuz they put their entire weight into the shot, they get this C shape. If you look at Youhzny's backhand, Haas's backhand, this is less emphasized(in fact it's almost straight) because they keep their body relatively still. By keeping ur wrist firm, you should get more control over flat shots, while a backhand with a little wrist action will allow you to get more spin and hence a higher margin of error. Don't use TOO MUCH of your wrist though, cuz it might deteriorate ur stroke and cuz bad timing, frames, mis-hits, etc.

In terms of the racket head thing, take the racquet back high, swing low to get sort of under the ball(not completely!)on a slant and bring it back up while brushing up the back of the ball(this is relatively flatter and can fly if the timing is off). This is one way of hitting it.

Another way is to curve the racquet face so that it slants up towards the ball. This will drag the ball forward with a ton of spin(pretty hard to apply the correct amount of spin though, tons of practice needed...).

tricky
10-10-2007, 03:57 PM
vids of gasquet and henin show high racket face at start then it loops down in a C like motion. which is right?

The C motion is more suited for a really advanced BH (i.e. Gasquet, Henin.) The "smile pattern" is the one you want to learn, when you get to that point.

But, the most important thing is getting the body to drive the shot. Best way to do this is to, for now, eliminate any takeback or backswing whatsoever in your stroke. This will force you to learn to set up the correct unit turn and stance, and then use the legs to swing for the sky. Also, this will help reinforce the down-to-up motion you need for the stroke.

In terms of wrist, try holding the racquet with just the 2nd, 4th and 5th fingers for the BH and practice a few swings. It'll give you feedback about proper use of wrist.

WHEN you get that all down, then progress to adding the backswing/takeback.

ananda
10-10-2007, 09:44 PM
The C motion is more suited for a really advanced BH (i.e. Gasquet, Henin.) The "smile pattern" is the one you want to learn, when you get to that point.

did you mean "UNTIL you get to that point".
I had read some old posts about smile/U, and C/Loop and remember you or BB saying that the backhand should use the U/Smile.
So actually i was trying that.
I also remember reading somewhere not to open the body(or right shoulder) at the end. whereas videos of Henin/Gasquet do. I assume only at the expert level one should open the body/right shoulder.

But, the most important thing is getting the body to drive the shot. Best way to do this is to, for now, eliminate any takeback or backswing whatsoever in your stroke. This will force you to learn to set up the correct unit turn and stance, and then use the legs to swing for the sky. Also, this will help reinforce the down-to-up motion you need for the stroke.

In terms of wrist, try holding the racquet with just the 2nd, 4th and 5th fingers for the BH and practice a few swings. It'll give you feedback about proper use of wrist.

WHEN you get that all down, then progress to adding the backswing/takeback.
yes, i do find that the down to up motion is the single most important thing.

just repeating the finger thing so i know have it right. i should keep the thumb and middle finger off the grip ???

thanks for the excellent advice.

ananda
10-11-2007, 02:50 AM
Have a look at the free one handed back video clips of Henin Blake Gasquet Federer and many more at www.procomparetennis.net (http://www.procomparetennis.net)

this site is amazing! it has photo sequences as well as video clips of many players, categorized on stroke.

slightly offtopic: could you suggest which players i should study for other strokes: forehand (other than Fed), Serve (other than Fed and Roddick) etc. thanks a ton.

tricky
10-11-2007, 09:39 AM
did you mean "UNTIL you get to that point".

Yes, you're right. The stances, unit turn, and how the body transfers power to the arm are different from the FH. Drilling those differences down makes the 1H BH *much* easier to learn properly. THEN you add in the backswing/takeback.

I also remember reading somewhere not to open the body(or right shoulder) at the end. whereas videos of Henin/Gasquet do. I assume only at the expert level one should open the body/right shoulder.

It's really a different kind of 1H BH altogether, and there's different elements that go along with it. There's perfectly good reasons why their body opens up like that, but those reasons don't apply for a classical 1H BH.

ust repeating the finger thing so i know have it right. i should keep the thumb and middle finger off the grip ???

Just when you're shadowing swings, especially from different stances and imagined ball heights. This automatically teaches you how the forearm and wrist should be used with the 1H BH.

YonexDude
10-11-2007, 09:55 AM
Just keep the wrist firm.

YES! gain racquet speed from the unfolding of your arms and the rotation outwards of your racquet-arm shoulder. step into the shot. let the tension of your racquet-arm pull the racuet out of your non-dominant hand's grip in order to start the stroke. that is one of the keys that i needed to know in order to get a decent 1hbh

YonexDude
10-11-2007, 09:57 AM
By keeping ur wrist firm, you should get more control over flat shots, while a backhand with a little wrist action will allow you to get more spin and hence a higher margin of error. Don't use TOO MUCH of your wrist though, cuz it might deteriorate ur stroke and cuz bad timing, frames, mis-hits, etc.

NO. don't use any wrist. using wrist will NOT get you topspin. i made this mistake for a year while trying to develop a 1hbh. you will NEVER get any extra topspin from your wrist, you need to learn that. it's all in your shoulder and how much you swing outwards VS upwards

Sliceboy2
10-11-2007, 10:11 AM
Wrist is locked at contact. It rolls over naturally on follow assuming you are using an Eastern BH grip.

Study Henin. Tremendous form.

This is a good advice. Just work on your racquet path, from preparation to finish. Low to high, make sure your contact is solid and sweet. Spin will be created by your racquet path, be stable and smooth stroke.

ananda
10-11-2007, 10:29 AM
Just when you're shadowing swings, especially from different stances and imagined ball heights. This automatically teaches you how the forearm and wrist should be used with the 1H BH.

I was trying out the 2,4,5 finger grip while shadow swinging. gives me a good idea.
i then accidentally tried a upside down U. i was wondering whether that could be attempted on a high ball (i know the topic of high balls wrt 1hbh has been dealt with on a dedicated thread) but this idea came to me since you suggested trying the finger thing with different swing paths.
i did see a video of Henin today hitting a shoulder height ball, she took rack back to her shoulder height, and then swung the rack horizontally. so then i thought an arc that goes from shoulder/chest height to slightly higher, then back, could that work?)

tricky
10-11-2007, 11:12 AM
I was trying out the 2,4,5 finger grip while shadow swinging. gives me a good idea. Yeah, you'll find that when practicing this, your wrist will be firm (but not rigid), but your forearm will rotate freely. You'll also notice that when you "snap" the wrist forward, your swing gets all wonky. That's more or less the "feels" that you're looking for.

i did see a video of Henin today hitting a shoulder height ball, she took rack back to her shoulder height, and then swung the rack horizontally. so then i thought an arc that goes from shoulder/chest height to slightly higher, then back, could that work?)It's just . . . a different BH. I'm actually against studying Henin and Gasquet, because their mechanics again involve a bunch of different elements that aren't compatible with the classical style. It would be like studying Agassi's BH and Safin's BH and then trying to mix and match. Superficially, they look alike, but there's important differences in mechanics. If the Henin/Gasquet BHs are your ultimate goal, then we can go into what they do and you can experiment with that.

RoddickAce
10-11-2007, 12:50 PM
btw, check out these two slow mothon videos of federer's backhand.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-743945332449396423&q=federer+backhand&total=112&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-7731840482996576210&q=federer+backhand&total=112&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

I forgot to emphasize the importance of the shoulder turn, you generate most of your pace from this key point. Check out the first video, that's what is meant by having ur wrist naturally rollover(he does use an Eastern Backhand grip, and doesn't force the rotation).

In the second video, u can see fed's wrist gradually turning(probably with the shoulder turn) and notice how he DOESN'T MOVE HIS HEAD on contact, he looks at the point of contact and keeps his head still, this prevents shanking.

ananda
10-11-2007, 10:24 PM
If the Henin/Gasquet BHs are your ultimate goal, then we can go into what they do and you can experiment with that.

No sir, but since i hear so much about them so i thought i should study them. I would rather you mention some player who has a classical/simple backhand i can model on.
(i have also been looking at Fed, Blake, Haas and a couple of others as per recommendations on this thread. Could not find Mauresmo).

As a newbie (3 months now), i would like to model myself on simple effective serves, bh, and fh. Suggestions on whom to study for the basic strokes would be much appreciated.

Jonny S&V
10-12-2007, 08:57 AM
No sir, but since i hear so much about them so i thought i should study them. I would rather you mention some player who has a classical/simple backhand i can model on.
(i have also been looking at Fed, Blake, Haas and a couple of others as per recommendations on this thread. Could not find Mauresmo).

As a newbie (3 months now), i would like to model myself on simple effective serves, bh, and fh. Suggestions on whom to study for the basic strokes would be much appreciated.

Mauresmo and Blake have the most basic backhands out there. What you should be doing is learning the slice more then the topspin. The best base of a good topspin backhand is a good slice backhand.

PS: For the most basic, nothing-can-go wrong slice backhand (technique wise anyway), watch Feliciano Lopez or Tim Henman.

ananda
10-12-2007, 09:32 AM
Mauresmo and Blake have the most basic backhands out there. What you should be doing is learning the slice more then the topspin. The best base of a good topspin backhand is a good slice backhand.

PS: For the most basic, nothing-can-go wrong slice backhand (technique wise anyway), watch Feliciano Lopez or Tim Henman.
thanks.
i have found videos of Blake's bh, but none of Mauresmo yet.
i have seen comparisons of Henmans and Lavers slice. will study it, my high slice is pathetic.

Please tell me for serve and forehand too.

could you elaborate on the statement i bold-faced above: the relationship between ts bh and slice bh.

Jonny S&V
10-12-2007, 09:58 AM
thanks.
i have found videos of Blake's bh, but none of Mauresmo yet.
i have seen comparisons of Henmans and Lavers slice. will study it, my high slice is pathetic.

Please tell me for serve and forehand too.

could you elaborate on the statement i bold-faced above: the relationship between ts bh and slice bh.

The topspin backhand requires the most footwork of any other shot in tennis, the slice is second least (next to openstance topspin forehand). You can use the slice offensively, defensively, a rally shot, a touch shot, a lob, and you use it on your volleys (with less chop obviously). The topspin backhand is almost strictly used as a rally shot and a lob. Here is an example of why the slice is very important. Note that every slice is slightly different:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=l17H1a6odc4

A good serve to copy is Michael Stitch. Simple, yet extremely effective:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yQYYY5kfO_I

^Sorry, I couldn't find an individual video

And the easist forehand to copy is Blakes, although I would just learn to hit a forehand using a straight back motion with an eastern grip. It's hard to find a pro's forehand to copy if you are a beginner, as most pro's forehands are complex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUH9Bevnew&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5l6NiQ1Upg

ananda
10-12-2007, 11:03 AM
And the easist forehand to copy is Blakes, although I would just learn to hit a forehand using a straight back motion with an eastern grip. It's hard to find a pro's forehand to copy if you are a beginner, as most pro's forehands are complex.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaUH9Bevnew&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=L5l6NiQ1Upg
ack i am using a sw grip from the start and i think my fh is decent (its not too newbie-ish). i take a long C like swing and its always been powerful. earlier it was flat, now i've been working on topspin.
But today, my trainer, (who is not v technically sound, i am his first client) told me that i should not take my rack back, esp not point it up. And i have spent all day looking at videos and photos, and it seems all the pros point the rack up.
I had modelled my fh on Fed, the best i could at any rate.
He also pointed out i should not use a closed stance, and i do notice that people are using an open/semi open stance, so he's correct on that one.

So i wanted a classical style i could check against, at least for any glaring errors.

thanks a lot for the other pointers.

Kevo
10-12-2007, 01:01 PM
When learning any new stroke keep it simple to start and then expand. Forget about looping the takeback and all that flair. What you need to understand first is the contact. Bad habits are very hard to break. So by keeping the backswing simple and working on proper contact you will have a foundation you can build on. I like to start people off with almost no swing whatsoever. Once they consistently hit the ball clean and know what that's like, then I let the expand. If the shot deteriorates then they can see that and correct immediately. It's hard for someone to know they are improving when all of their shots look different and some are good and some are bad. Having said all of this, without seeing you hit the ball it's hard to give good advice. I will say that many people over emphasize the wrist on shots a lot. Most of the time you want turning of the arm and hand together rather than bending of the wrist.

tricky
10-12-2007, 01:28 PM
I had modelled my fh on Fed, the best i could at any rate.

Yeah, that's not such a good idea, since his swing is among the most varied and intricate in the game.

Easier model is Agassi or Safin. Their FHs are called here the "windshield wiper", and there's a definite structure to producing the WW FH.

As a newbie (3 months now), i would like to model myself on simple effective serves, bh, and fh. Suggestions on whom to study for the basic strokes would be much appreciated.

The nice thing about the classical 1H BH is that there's really not a whole lot variation with it. What you see in instructional videos is already pretty close to how the pros execute this stroke.

If you watch McEnroe and Laver, they barely use a takeback at all. This is really useful in observing stance, unit turn, and weight transfer. Also, the things in those videos are pretty consistent in both classical and "modern" variations of the 1H. And in fact, this is probably the hardest things to get down in the 1 hander.

From there, you add in the smile takeback. Ideally, you abbreviate it by tracing the smile pattern with the elbow, rather than the hand. If you do this and put everything together, then you have a baseline stroke to compare with most pro clips.

RoddickAce
10-12-2007, 01:36 PM
Go this this website:
http://www.playerdevelopment.usta.com/pdmediabooks/players.asp?section=players&page=2

Go to the second page(click next at the bottom) and click on Mauresmo's pic, second from the top. Then choose the stroke you want to view and click the play button. In terms of the other strokes, you can also check fed's, roddick's, Djoko's, nadal's etc. Just click on the pic and choose the stroke that u want to see.

ananda
10-13-2007, 12:16 AM
thanks to the feedback on this and other threads, i think i have a decent dependable 1hbh drive/ts that is usually landing around the opposite baseline.

praps more questions will come as i use it more.

I am also examining Agassi and Safin for the forehand, and will post any doubts on a fh thread. thanks again.

Rickson
10-13-2007, 03:24 PM
1. trainer says "throw your racket forward". is that correct?
I'm not sure what throw your racket forward means so I'll say no.

2. one video said keep wrist locked. yes/no. if i throw rack forward, then i cant keep wrist locked.

The one hand backhand is definitely not a wristy shot so I'll agree with that.

3. some videos and pics show rack face high at takeback. my trainer says keep rack head low.
vids of gasquet and henin show high racket face at start then it loops down in a C like motion. which is right?
btw, when i lock wrist racket face goes high.

What is this guy, a 2 hander pretending to be a one hander? The takeback is not low on a one handed backhand.

That's my 2 cents. Good luck.

ananda
10-13-2007, 09:34 PM
I'm not sure what throw your racket forward means so I'll say no.

The one hand backhand is definitely not a wristy shot so I'll agree with that.

What is this guy, a 2 hander pretending to be a one hander? The takeback is not low on a one handed backhand.

That's my 2 cents. Good luck.
yes, i am finding the stroke stable without getting wristy.
my trainer is not techn v sound, i am his first client, but he's the best i got. he does not have a backhand worth mentioning, its a 1h.
its funny, he's picked up the 2hbh from me, and i have more or less moved to the 1h.
thanks for the feedback. i keep a firm wrist, not locked. and no conscious wrist movement. i am sticking to a simple U movement that is working well.
i overshoot the baseline a bit, and some go flying -- i think i need to get the grip a bit more extreme for some cases.