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Oldschool6279
10-11-2007, 07:30 AM
Folks

In tennis and perhaps golf often times minor modifications in leg, arm, hand and body positioning/orientation can have tremendous effects on consistency and power.

There appear to be two difference lines of thought regarding setting up for an open stance forehand. Some propose a) to stop and lower you butt, and others b) to stop and collapse your left leg. a) results in one’s body weight being nearly evenly distributed on the two legs whereas b) result on your weight entirely on your right leg before starting the kinetic chain.

Is this a fair description of what advanced players do?

Does one actually stop and collapse the left leg, or the left leg “enters” the set up partially collapsed?

Please share your views

OS

Tennismastery
10-11-2007, 11:36 AM
The modern open stance forehand can have slight variations in not just the footwork pattern (weight distribution and transfer) but also the swing pattern. But, your question in my opinion (I think you mean in b) to bend the right leg), is to describe the "load and explode" pattern among most pros and top level players. That is to load the inside foot, putting weight on the right leg by bending it (for a right-handed forehand), rotating the upper body (unit turn), unleashing the hips followed by the upper body, followed by the hand and finally the racquet.

However, the one point I make in my book is that players must be careful not to over rotate at contact as this will drag the hitting hand in too far before the racquet can catch up forcing the player to either wrist the forehand (to get the racquet head caught up), or to hit the ball with only the speed of the body's rotation. (Very slow.)

The main issue I look for is that the player is able to drive the racquet through the hitting zone with a deliberate topspin stroke pattern, not overrotating and making sure the wiper action is done in the context of the drive. (So that the player is not just arming a wiper move as we often see a lot of junior players do when trying to hit with an aggressive grip and topspin swing pattern.)

Once the foundation of this action is acquired, then the player will naturally evolve the stroke including footwork patterns that work for the desired stroke or swing path.

The open stance can be finished with an "8-board" move or a reverse pivot too.

tricky
10-11-2007, 04:06 PM
ome propose a) to stop and lower you butt, and others b) to stop and collapse your left leg. a) results in one’s body weight being nearly evenly distributed on the two legs whereas b) result on your weight entirely on your right leg before starting the kinetic chain.

In style A), you start rotating your torso and then you lower your butt (i.e. bend your hip flexors.) The key thing here is that the butt does not rotate with the body, and so the torso twists around the hips. The more you rotate, the lower you go. When done properly, you feel weight on the right knee and some stretch in the lower back. Then, you uncoil the hips in order to release the forward swing/leg drive into the ball.

The above is associated especially with the strokes of the WTA, but it's also similar to what most people do with their serve.

In style B), you start bending the right hip, and then you rotate the torso to set up unit turn. Here, the butt does rotate with the torso as one unit. The lower you go, the more you rotate. When done properly, you feel weight on the right hip, as if you're sitting slightly off center. Then, you lift with the legs, which releases the hips and forward swing.

And, of course, style B is associated with "sit and lift", and what most advanced male players do.

I think it's an issue of body sequencing with the unit turn, which itself is set by the body, not the arms. If the hips go first, you got style A, appropriate for a linear/WTA-style stroke. If the legs go first, you got style B rotational/ATP-style stroke.

The body sequencing is important. If you mismatch the style with your stroke, you will open up WAY too early, as Tennismastery pointed out. It'll feel unnatural.

sharpy
10-11-2007, 05:10 PM
In style A), you start rotating your torso and then you lower your butt (i.e. bend your hip flexors.) The key thing here is that the butt does not rotate with the body, and so the torso twists around the hips. The more you rotate, the lower you go. When done properly, you feel weight on the right knee and some stretch in the lower back. Then, you uncoil the hips in order to release the forward swing/leg drive into the ball.

The above is associated especially with the strokes of the WTA, but it's also similar to what most people do with their serve.

In style B), you start bending the right hip, and then you rotate the torso to set up unit turn. Here, the butt does rotate with the torso as one unit. The lower you go, the more you rotate. When done properly, you feel weight on the right hip, as if you're sitting slightly off center. Then, you lift with the legs, which releases the hips and forward swing.

And, of course, style B is associated with "sit and lift", and what most advanced male players do.

I think it's an issue of body sequencing with the unit turn, which itself is set by the body, not the arms. If the hips go first, you got style A, appropriate for a linear/WTA-style stroke. If the legs go first, you got style B rotational/ATP-style stroke.

The body sequencing is important. If you mismatch the style with your stroke, you will open up WAY too early, as Tennismastery pointed out. It'll feel unnatural.

Is this why roger federer/ pull stroke players seems to uncoil way early than the wta push players? Is the action of uncoiling or "rotating your shoulders" something that happens on it's own as a result of sequencing, or is it something your supposed to think about purposely doing?

---

Doesn't common instruction tell you to "step out" with the right foot for a forehand side ball? (left for bh) But then this would make it push sequencing?

----

tricky
10-11-2007, 05:40 PM
Is this why roger federer/ pull stroke players seems to uncoil way early than the wta push players?

Yeah, it's about energy transferring from the hips to the shoulder. Of course, if you use a more conservative grip, you rotate less.

Most women derive their power from the legs, either using a long stride (Sharapova) or a more explosive step (Serena.) Even accounting for grip, they rotate much less than the men, but they drop much lower.

Is the action of uncoiling or "rotating your shoulders" something that happens on it's own as a result of sequencing, or is it something your supposed to think about purposely doing?

It's all natural. If you do step B, you're naturally drive off the foot, which in turn will release the hips.

Really, the body sequencing for the unit turn is the key. When it's "wrong", then you'll find yourself thinking how to initiate the forward swing. And that's what happens a lot when people first learn "sit and lift."

Doesn't common instruction tell you to "step out" with the right foot for a forehand side ball? (left for bh) But then this would make it push sequencing?

In a "push sequencing", you "twist" around the right foot, thus, you'll feel the weight on your right knee. The feet sets the unit turn; the stance is more closed; the hips release the feet.

In "pull sequencing", you "swing" around the right foot, thus the weight is on your right hip. The hips set the unit turn; the stance is more open; the feet release the hips.

sharpy
10-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Yeah, it's about energy transferring from the hips to the shoulder. Of course, if you use a more conservative grip, you rotate less.

Most women derive their power from the legs, either using a long stride (Sharapova) or a more explosive step (Serena.) Even accounting for grip, they rotate much less than the men, but they drop much lower.



It's all natural. If you do step B, you're naturally drive off the foot, which in turn will release the hips.

Really, the body sequencing for the unit turn is the key. When it's "wrong", then you'll find yourself thinking how to initiate the forward swing. And that's what happens a lot when people first learn "sit and lift."



In a "push sequencing", you "twist" around the right foot, thus, you'll feel the weight on your right knee. The feet sets the unit turn; the stance is more closed; the hips release the feet.

In "pull sequencing", you "swing" around the right foot, thus the weight is on your right hip. The hips set the unit turn; the stance is more open; the feet release the hips.


What's the most important thing to think of if I want to set up a pull sequence unit turn? (assuming all other elements are in order)

Sorry, but could you be more specific on your terminology instead of "twist" or "swing?" of the right foot?

tricky
10-11-2007, 06:34 PM
What's the most important thing to think of if I want to set up a pull sequence unit turn? (assuming all other elements are in order)1) Shift weight onto right hip.

2) You'll notice that as you put more weight on right tip, the body will rotate until roughly perpendicular with net or parallel with path of ball.

3) You'll notice that, at end of unit turn, your left arm will be near full extension, even though you weren't concentrating on it.

Sorry, but could you be more specific on your terminology instead of "twist" or "swing?" of the right foot?Basically, in the latter, the butt rotates with the torso. Your left foot is set well before the unit turn is set up. In the former, the butt stays fixed. Your left foot mostly sets the unit turn . Also, you'll feel a little twist in the lower back.

BeHappy
10-11-2007, 06:37 PM
Tricky: email me at buttertastesreallynice@yahoo.com

Oldschool6279
10-11-2007, 06:54 PM
Really, the body sequencing for the unit turn is the key. When it's "wrong", then you'll find yourself thinking how to initiate the forward swing. And that's what happens a lot when people first learn "sit and lift."


Tricky,

Somewhere in your remarkable postings in the past you make reference to the sequence of the unit turn. However, you touch upon it in reference to Federer forehand. I have most of your postings saved. I understand: think feet to turn your shoulders sideways without doing anything with the raquet, once sideways think hands while you chest is already facing the side fence.....

Could you please put together the sequence again in the form you often do, step by step in a numeric sequence. I would appreciate this.

Regards,

Oldschool

Oldschool6279
10-11-2007, 06:59 PM
Tricky: email me at buttertastesreallynice@yahoo.com

Behappy and Tricky, let's keep the discussion here if you don't mind. I would not want to miss Tricky's postings. They have so much valuable information...

Thanks,

Oldschool

Oldschool6279
10-11-2007, 07:07 PM
However, the one point I make in my book is that players must be careful not to over rotate at contact as this will drag the hitting hand in too far before the racquet can catch up forcing the player to either wrist the forehand (to get the racquet head caught up), or to hit the ball with only the speed of the body's rotation. (Very slow.)


Dave, thank you for your note. I run into this tip in one of you notes in the TennisOne website. What and eye opener. Good stuff......

I understand you have a daughter playing tennnis, probably the same age as mine. Are you intruducing the concepts of unit turn, body loading and kenetic chain? If it is not too much to ask, how do you introduce this concepts to a kid that age when alls they seem to be interested in doing is hitting the ball. If you know of threads here or places to access this info I'd love to know.

Many thanks,

Oldschool

tricky
10-11-2007, 07:52 PM
However, you touch upon it in reference to Federer forehand. I have most of your postings saved. I understand: think feet to turn your shoulders sideways without doing anything with the raquet, once sideways think hands while you chest is already facing the side fence.....Whoa, did I say that? Huh I gotta lay off the beer when I post . . .

Nah, I mean, Federer's unit turn is pretty textbook. You don't want the arms to set up the unit turn. If you do, then your stance will be off, your body won't be loaded correctly, and you'll arm the ball.

So to set up unit turn, you load on the right hip. When you load on the right hip, it causes your body to rotate until your body is squared up against path of ball. That's the end of unit turn.

And you can kinda drill this into your brain by hitting the ball without using a backswing or takeback. Set up unit turn with the racquet pointing up, and then just go into the backswing-to-forward transition using your body to drive the ball forward. You still get a WW finish and all that good stuff, and you concentrate mostly on setting up stances properly to hit the right shot. Here, you have to sit and lift to hit through the ball.

Once the unit turn is set up, a neat "trick" is to then follow the ball with your eyes and neck. But that only works once the unit turn is set (i.e. the legs are already dropping.) If it isn't (i.e. head turns before the unit turn is complete and the hips are already turning), then your mechanics will go off kilter and you won't be able to time the shot.

The neck will start to tilt forward until it's almost over your chin. Your left shoulder goes up and releases the racquet, thereby initiating the takeback. As you watch the ball, the neck will eventually start turning away from the shoulder, and that will automatically initiate the forward swing. As you "watch" the ball go into the racquet, your neck is still turning away from the shoulder and your body is still moving forward.

Tennismastery
10-11-2007, 08:15 PM
Dave, thank you for your note. I run into this tip in one of you notes in the TennisOne website. What and eye opener. Good stuff......

I understand you have a daughter playing tennnis, probably the same age as mine. Are you intruducing the concepts of unit turn, body loading and kenetic chain? If it is not too much to ask, how do you introduce this concepts to a kid that age when alls they seem to be interested in doing is hitting the ball. If you know of threads here or places to access this info I'd love to know.

Many thanks,

Oldschool

Oldschool,

Yes, my daughter is 8 and I have a series on training an 8-year old on TennisOne with the latest that just came out on the 8th of this month.

She has been playing now for 10 months and if your read the series, you will see how I was able to create proper stroke patterns early on. For about five months, she has been working on open stance strokes, as well as her closed stance strokes as needed; kick and slice serves, deep and angle volleys, and slice approach shots and drop shots.

I think because of her piano lessons and Karate, she understands the concept of discipline and form, technique and patience. Her tennis is really very fundamentally sound from every aspect and can rally easily 15 and 20 ball rallies live ball now with very good form...even as I don't consider her an exceptional athlete by any means. However, her technique is allowing her to compensate somewhat for her lack of natural ability and able to hit significant shots because of her dedication to the foundation.

Check out the series and let me know what you think. From the number of e-mails I have received, (world-wide), the series has been a hit among those working with specifically that particular age group.

Thanks for asking!

sharpy
10-11-2007, 08:52 PM
Tricky, does this push pull unit turn sequencing also apply for the backhand (2hbh?)

tricky
10-11-2007, 09:44 PM
Tricky, does this push pull unit turn sequencing also apply for the backhand (2hbh?)

Give this a shot. :) (Linear = push, rotational=pull)

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=155349

sharpy
10-11-2007, 10:31 PM
tricky

would a smile pattern straight/bent style 2hbh be considered a push or a pull?

tricky
10-12-2007, 09:47 AM
would a smile pattern straight/bent style 2hbh be considered a push or a pull?

Pull/rotational. You turn with the hips, and you takeback with the smil pattern. If you use the thumb-wrist line as a guide, the BH side is the opposite of the FH side, and so it's in a straight position (i.e. racquet head "down" or roughly parallel to forearm) through entire stroke.

Mountain Ghost
10-12-2007, 10:03 AM
Tricky, I hope you’ve saved all your postings as text files so that you can just organize them into categories on your computer and then publish a tennis book on mechanical theory. I’ll expect the “Encyclopedia of TRICKY Tennis” to be available at TW just after the New Year. Mind you, I don’t enjoy reading that much, especially when it comes to home-brewed and slang-based mechanical engineering, but I think you have enough of a fan base to make the project worthwhile.

As for Oldschool’s original question . . . as mentioned, you would load your right leg with your weight centered over the INSIDE of the right foot, but NOT so your weight is (b) “entirely on your right leg before starting the kinetic chain.” If you don’t have at least SOME of your weight on your left foot, you will not have a two-point (spin-resistant) base from which to fully initiate your rotational momentum.

MG

tennisace432
10-12-2007, 05:02 PM
Whoa, did I say that? Huh I gotta lay off the beer when I post . . .

Nah, I mean, Federer's unit turn is pretty textbook. You don't want the arms to set up the unit turn. If you do, then your stance will be off, your body won't be loaded correctly, and you'll arm the ball.

So to set up unit turn, you load on the right hip. When you load on the right hip, it causes your body to rotate until your body is squared up against path of ball. That's the end of unit turn.


Tricky,

I know this probably doesn't fall into the topic of this thread, but I have a quick question.

On federer's forehand, when does the pronation on the wrist/forearm occur in his stroke? Between unit turn and top of the takeback? (where you manually turn the wrist) Or does the pronation take place by itself, when you straigthen your arm from the top of the takeback to the bottom of the drop?

tricky
10-12-2007, 05:09 PM
On federer's forehand, when does the pronation on the wrist/forearm occur in his stroke? Between unit turn and top of the takeback? (where you manually turn the wrist?)

Federer does it after top of takeback. Joker does it right after the unit turn.

Or does the pronation take place by itself, when you straigthen your arm from the top of the takeback to the bottom of the drop?

I see it the other way around. When you reach top of takeback, you continue taking the shoulder back, but you also start pronating the forearm. The arm straightening takes place by itself. This is so that, when you initiate the forward swing, it is still done with the shoulder rather than the hand, which gives you more power and better rhythm.