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View Full Version : Follow Through: Over shoulder vs. Across body


cukoo
10-11-2007, 03:53 PM
Does the position or trajectory of the follow-through of the forehand have any relation with its shot?
Besides preferences, is there any reason why Agassi usually ends the racquet over his left shoulder while Safin usually use a normal windshield wiper FH and ends across the left side of his body (below the shoulders)?

Thanks

Doc Hollidae
10-11-2007, 04:45 PM
The traditional teaching for follow throughs was always to follow through over your shoulder. This style of follow through is more geared towards flat hitters such as Agassi.

Following through across the body started to occur when topspine became more and more popular. However the follow through across the body isn't soley due to the amount of topspin being hit. The follow through has to do more with the type of grip players are using now. Most players now play with a semi-western to western grip as opposed to the eastern or continental grip that was once taught. Just try hitting a proper forehand with a full western grip and following through over your shoulder. It's not natural, especially with the way your wrist drops down.

So in short, the answer is yes and no. Both follow throughs are geared towards a different style or type of shot, but really it's the grip that makes the difference. Eastern and continental grips go over the shoulder and semi-western and western ends up across the body.

cukoo
10-11-2007, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the explanation Doc Hollidae but I think that both Agassi and Safin plays with a semi western grip.
And how/why exactly does ending over the shoulder geared towards flat hitters?

On a side note, I also use the Head Radical LE OS. Great racquet.

cukoo
10-11-2007, 07:02 PM
bump to the top

jasoncho92
10-11-2007, 07:02 PM
Agassi uses a eastern

paulfreda
10-11-2007, 07:11 PM
[QUOTE=cukoo;1804328]And how/why exactly does ending over the shoulder geared towards flat hitters? QUOTE]

The reason Doc said this, and I concur, is that a flat hitter moves his racquet toward the target and can actually finish that way with the tip pointing at the target. This is the swing taught by Robert Lansdorp and used most prominently by Sampras and Davenport.
The finish over the shoulder is what happens when you swing fast or hard and the continuation will most naturally have the tip point to the back fence after going thru the 'point to target' point out in front of you.

The opposite type shot is the windshield wiper shot where you finish to your left [for a righty] and then the frame moves behind you.

For the nit pickers out there; yes, you can and do hit topspin with the Lansdorp for sure and you can also hit flat without finishing over the shoulder.

wihamilton
10-11-2007, 07:34 PM
Yes, the way you follow through is related to what type of ball you are trying to hit. You can generate more racket head speed w/a windshield wiper or reverse forehand finish. Wrapping your racket around your shoulder = less racket head speed = flatter ball.

The type of grip you play with also affects how you follow through. Eastern is geared toward classic "wrap" finish. The more western you get, the more often you finish w/the windshield wiper (w/a western grip, a lot of times you have to finish like this to get your racket through the strike zone).

cukoo
10-11-2007, 07:48 PM
Yes, the way you follow through is related to what type of ball you are trying to hit. You can generate more racket head speed w/a windshield wiper or reverse forehand finish. Wrapping your racket around your shoulder = less racket head speed = flatter ball.

Wilhamilton, why does your follow-through affect your racquet head speed?
I can see how different follow-through usually equate to different types of shots (flat/topspin).
But I have trouble understanding how over the shoulder would make you make less racquet head speed.

BeHappy
10-11-2007, 07:51 PM
Yes, the way you follow through is related to what type of ball you are trying to hit. You can generate more racket head speed w/a windshield wiper or reverse forehand finish. Wrapping your racket around your shoulder = less racket head speed = flatter ball.

The type of grip you play with also affects how you follow through. Eastern is geared toward classic "wrap" finish. The more western you get, the more often you finish w/the windshield wiper (w/a western grip, a lot of times you have to finish like this to get your racket through the strike zone).



that's not true, are you telling what you think is a white lie?

paulfreda
10-11-2007, 08:34 PM
The more western you get, the more often you finish w/the windshield wiper
True for many people but not all.
Nadal is SW to W and he often drives thru the ball without a windshield wiper action. It is not easy at first and feels awkward, but the results are worth it. You get a very heavy ball [spin + Pace].

Doc Hollidae
10-11-2007, 10:47 PM
Thanks for the explanation Doc Hollidae but I think that both Agassi and Safin plays with a semi western grip.
And how/why exactly does ending over the shoulder geared towards flat hitters?

On a side note, I also use the Head Radical LE OS. Great racquet.

Flat hitter's aren't brushing up against the ball much. They swing through the ball. When hitting topspin you're taught to brush up against the back of the ball.

In regards to Agassi vs Safin. Agassi's forehand is much flatter and his semi-western (if that) is closer to eastern than western. Safin hits with more topspin and grip is closer to western. Semi-western has the option of going both ways, that's when the type of stroke you're hitting plays a factor into your follow through. To clarify, I was just saying that the trajectory or type of shot wasn't the only thing that determined a follow though, grip matters too. Following though across your body with a western grip feels much more natural than over your shoulder.

Slazenger
10-12-2007, 01:46 AM
Does the position or trajectory of the follow-through of the forehand have any relation with its shot?
Besides preferences, is there any reason why Agassi usually ends the racquet over his left shoulder while Safin usually use a normal windshield wiper FH and ends across the left side of his body (below the shoulders)?

Thanks

umm, I don't remember Agassi finishing his forehand over his shoulder. I may be wrong but I remember his finish with the racquet just below shoulder level.

Supernatural_Serve
10-12-2007, 03:53 AM
I don't think you can look at the follow through in isolation and draw a lot of conclusions other than the swing path is low to high, yet different (finishes below shoulder, at shoulder, above shoulder).

The dramatically more important impact on the shot occurs in all the activities occuring up to the point of contact with the ball. The grip, stance, loading of legs, weight transfer, preparation, coil, unloading, etc.

I happen to believe that almost all the important action is in the legs, hips and core, not the arm that's along for the ride stopping at the various stations around the opposite shoulder.

wihamilton
10-12-2007, 05:25 AM
True for many people but not all.
Nadal is SW to W and he often drives thru the ball without a windshield wiper action. It is not easy at first and feels awkward, but the results are worth it. You get a very heavy ball [spin + Pace].

Nadal has a "reverse finish" a lot of the time, where he finishes over his head and on the left side of his body. It's not the same as a classic wrap finish. The reverse forehand allows you to generate a lot of spin without having to rotate your body around like you would on a normal follow through -- so it's good for shots where you are late / jammed / on the run.

wihamilton
10-12-2007, 05:39 AM
Wilhamilton, why does your follow-through affect your racquet head speed?
I can see how different follow-through usually equate to different types of shots (flat/topspin).
But I have trouble understanding how over the shoulder would make you make less racquet head speed.

The windshield wiper is where you turn your arm, hand and racket over as a unit. All this rotate comes from your shoulder. Players use the wiper to increase topspin -- the wiper allows them to "brush" against the back of the ball much more than if they were following through w/a classic wrap finish. The fact that you are "brushing" against the ball more w/a wiper than w/a wrap means your racket is moving faster across the back of the ball with the former. In other words, you have more racket head speed. This doesn't mean you will hit the ball harder -- in many instances you are sacrificing power for spin.

Think of it in terms of first and second serves. The first serve is normally harder but has less spin, and the second serve is the opposite. But you are swinging across the ball much faster when you hit a second serve to ensure you get enough spin to pull the ball in.

Supernatural_Serve
10-12-2007, 05:41 AM
Nadal has a "reverse finish" a lot of the time, where he finishes over his head and on the left side of his body. It's not the same as a classic wrap finish. The reverse forehand allows you to generate a lot of spin without having to rotate your body around like you would on a normal follow through -- so it's good for shots where you are late / jammed / on the run.that's a good observation. Its as if he's unable to transfer all that energy to his shot (for reasons you listed), yet, he doesn't lower the energy in his shot and thus it alters his attack angle on the ball and follow through.

Stroke
10-12-2007, 05:50 AM
that's a good observation. Its as if he's unable to transfer all that energy to his shot (for reasons you listed), yet, he doesn't lower the energy in his shot and thus it alters his attack angle on the ball and follow through.

Nadal sometimes does turn his torso/shoulder into the shot, and on these shots, he does have the more common pro finish around his midsection. He does seem to favor the less body rotation, reverse finish, on most of his rally balls.

Supernatural_Serve
10-12-2007, 06:00 AM
Nadal sometimes does turn his torso/shoulder into the shot, and on these shots, he does have the more common pro finish around his midsection. He does seem to favor the less body rotation, reverse finish, on most of his rally balls.Would you say that it depends on other things, like whether he's hitting cross court or down the line, or the ball is high in the strike zone.

I'm curious.

Maybe its me, but I associated his reverse follow through with a timing issue and his approach to not losing power on mis-timed/late balls (since he can't unload all his leg/torso energy as effectively) more so than an effort to generate more spin.

Stroke
10-22-2007, 09:03 AM
Would you say that it depends on other things, like whether he's hitting cross court or down the line, or the ball is high in the strike zone.

I'm curious.

Maybe its me, but I associated his reverse follow through with a timing issue and his approach to not losing power on mis-timed/late balls (since he can't unload all his leg/torso energy as effectively) more so than an effort to generate more spin.

I would agree with you on this issue. In fact, John Yandell has documented, on a piece he wrote on the Nadal forehand, that Nadal get no more spin/RPM's on the ball when he uses his reverse finish instead of the more commom pro finish of over to the other side of the body. I do think that for whatever reason though, Nadal choosed to use the reverse finish even when his is not late or mistiming his FH.