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View Full Version : 3.5+ player and female pro serve


Pirc Defense
11-12-2004, 02:42 PM
Could an athletic, but somewhat new to tennis man of 35, rated at around 3.5 or so, return, say, the 25th best serve on the WTA? Just get the ball back into the other court, nothing special.

Ya think?

Datacipher
11-12-2004, 02:45 PM
No. Not with any consistency.

PusherMan
11-12-2004, 02:46 PM
Assuming the ball doesn't catch the outer edge of the line, I would say YES. Of course there are only about 10,000 other variables to consider here.

Tennis Guy
11-12-2004, 02:52 PM
Even if it isn't that fast, they can place it on a line with tons of spin.

Thunnus
11-12-2004, 06:43 PM
If the 3.5 male player is very good at returning for 3.5 level, he should be able to get the ball back. Remember most players don't hit with a lot of spin.

katarddx
11-12-2004, 07:25 PM
Yep, not only that it could be a game IMHO...Not a really great game but point here and there...

Datacipher
11-13-2004, 04:14 AM
Yep, not only that it could be a game IMHO...Not a really great game but point here and there...

I really think you guys are out to lunch here. The girls hit nice serves nowadays, much heavier, faster and better placed than anything a 3.5 can consistently handle. I've been on court with and watched a former WTA #130 WIPE THE COURT with 4.5 club men.

Have to jump to at least the 5.0 open player level and now you can get good games and tough battles.

snark
11-13-2004, 12:58 PM
Would a 4.5 be able to take any serves of a top male pro? Not even close.

peter
11-13-2004, 01:14 PM
Could an athletic, but somewhat new to tennis man of 35, rated at around 3.5 or so, return, say, the 25th best serve on the WTA? Just get the ball back into the other court, nothing special.

Ya think?

Nope. No chance at all. They would probably swing in the air all the time, missing the ball due to the kick/spin of the serve.

They *might* be able to get the racket to the ball (but not be able to control it) if the WTA player decides to just hit a hard fast serve, but why they would do that when they just can outserve the guy using their second serve all the time is beyond me..

antontd
11-13-2004, 02:36 PM
Could an athletic, but somewhat new to tennis man of 35, rated at around 3.5 or so, return, say, the 25th best serve on the WTA? Just get the ball back into the other court, nothing special.

Ya think?

Nope. No chance at all. They would probably swing in the air all the time, missing the ball due to the kick/spin of the serve.

They *might* be able to get the racket to the ball (but not be able to control it) if the WTA player decides to just hit a hard fast serve, but why they would do that when they just can outserve the guy using their second serve all the time is beyond me..

yeah, right. they hit with so much "kick/spin" that the ball changes its direction at least 3-4 times. :roll: :lol:

tennis-n-sc
11-13-2004, 02:45 PM
Thunnus, don't know what you are referring to but the WTA players I have seen in person hit with a ton of spin and place the ball very, very well. I doubt a 3.5 could return a serve off the top 25 WTA women. Most will serve consistently over 100 MPH. Not that 3.5 guys hit the ball that hard or with as much spin.

Steve Huff
11-13-2004, 04:38 PM
And even if you did manage to get it back, you wouldn't touch the next shot.

thebeast
11-13-2004, 06:20 PM
a 3.5 guy most likely can't return a 3.5 serve that well or consistently.

Could a 3.5 guy return a pro women's serve in the court? yeah.

could I return a pro males serve in the court? yeah.

but it doesn't mean anything.

intense2b
11-13-2004, 09:16 PM
Absolutely yes!! In fact even if Roddick hit a serve right at you at 155 miles per hour and you happened to get lucky and guess right...and simply put your racquet on the ball you may actually get it over the net. Almost anyone can simply put their racquet on a ball that is hit right at them. However....if its on a line or angled then you would be dead meat. However....If you happen to guess right then you actually could get lucky on one return. Its almost the same as asking..." If Roger Clemmens threw a 90 mph fast ball at me then could I hit it somewhere in the park"? The answer is.....: Anyone can get a lucky swing and simply put the bat on the ball.

Finally, I am a 5.0 player and serve at about 95-105 mph . I have played against 3.5 players and they can return my serve. Not very well...but they can return it..

PusherMan
11-13-2004, 11:57 PM
Agree with intense2b

skuludo
11-15-2004, 03:33 AM
Nadal got hit by Roddick's serve when it was hit right at him. Scoville Jenkins couldn't do anything about it when Roddick served right at him.

djones
11-15-2004, 05:00 AM
I didn't think women hit the ball that hard until The last WTA tournament before the masters.
It was some indoors tournament as well, and it was filmed from some very ugly camera position.
But you could really tell how hard Sharapova and Mollik hit their services.
Or it sure seemed like it was going fast.

baseliner
11-15-2004, 08:19 AM
I'll bet on the 3.5 male player against a top 10 women (if the woman is Dementieva!). Look, the quality of serves in the women's field varies so greatly that it is difficult to anwer your hypo. Dementieva is top 10. Anyone on this board think they can't return her serve (when she gets it in?)

Thunnus
11-15-2004, 08:50 AM
Obviously, if the pros hit on the right spot with 100mph+, there is nothing anybody can do to return it. But, unlike men's, the velocity and spin which mostly is slice, if you are 3.5 male who has a quick hands and good foot work. Of course, the whole premise of the question itself is flawed in that being able to get it back in play consistently in itself doesn't prove anything.

If someone hits 120mph+ consistently or hit good twist serves, even a very good 3.5 returner will have a hard time just blocking it back consistently. However, if the likes of Myskina and other average Russian servers serve with their serves in 90-100mph range with just slice spin on, one could definately get those back in play, if you you are a pretty good 3.5 returner.

tennis-n-sc
11-15-2004, 12:07 PM
Just another comment. I have hit around some with a few Div I college women (tennis, that is), and I can tell you the game speed at that level is far, far, different than men's 3.5 league tennis. I think the pros would be far better than the college gals. A lucky ball or two might make it back, but not enough to say that a 3.5 guy can return a WTA players serve. Even poor Dementiavia (sp?) puts so much spin on that 50 MPH fast ball that many of the other pro women have a hard time with it. Speed kills, but there is more to it.

snark
11-15-2004, 02:11 PM
This thread is insane. 3.5 is not even a very strong club player and would have absolutely no chance agains a top female pro, whether returning the serve or any other shot.

katarddx
11-15-2004, 07:10 PM
This thread is insane. 3.5 is not even a very strong club player and would have absolutely no chance agains a top female pro, whether returning the serve or any other shot.

not entirely a true...
i have seen, in some states, VERY good 3.5 players. They explained that in those states they will play "down" a level or even two...I am not supporter of this, but it is true. Some of them look like very, very solid 4.0 at least.

snark
11-15-2004, 08:08 PM
This thread is insane. 3.5 is not even a very strong club player and would have absolutely no chance agains a top female pro, whether returning the serve or any other shot.

not entirely a true...
i have seen, in some states, VERY good 3.5 players. They explained that in those states they will play "down" a level or even two...I am not supporter of this, but it is true. Some of them look like very, very solid 4.0 at least.

Could be, but even a solid 4.0 would have no chance at all
against a female pro (just as a solid 5.0 would be absolutely crushed by a male pro).

katarddx
11-15-2004, 10:53 PM
I am not talking about winning but returning a serve as it is in the tread question. That is it...Not playing a match, not winning a match, just returning a stupid serve...

Datacipher
11-16-2004, 11:02 AM
I am not talking about winning but returning a serve as it is in the tread question. That is it...Not playing a match, not winning a match, just returning a stupid serve...

Actually Katarddx, you said they could not only return serve but it would be a "game" and they could win a point here and there.

I think it's truly fantasy. A good 4.0 might block back a FEW serves, he'd have virtually no chance of consistently winning points. Even then, the 4.0 would have a lot of trouble with a top 25 WTA players serve, particularly on a fast court. It would be several levels above the 4.0's serve. As I said before a 3.5 could not consistently return the serves and would be quite lucky to block any back at all. A 3.5 player has not even acheived complete stroke dependability on moderate shots. The serve of a top 25 women is most certainly not a moderate shot. This is all part of the recreational players delusion about the pros.

Your point about 4.0 players charading as 3.5's is kind of silly don't you think? If you and they both admit they are 4.0, then what is your point?

katarddx
11-16-2004, 06:17 PM
I am not talking about winning but returning a serve as it is in the tread question. That is it...Not playing a match, not winning a match, just returning a stupid serve...

Actually Katarddx, you said they could not only return serve but it would be a "game" and they could win a point here and there.

I think it's truly fantasy. A good 4.0 might block back a FEW serves, he'd have virtually no chance of consistently winning points. Even then, the 4.0 would have a lot of trouble with a top 25 WTA players serve, particularly on a fast court. It would be several levels above the 4.0's serve. As I said before a 3.5 could not consistently return the serves and would be quite lucky to block any back at all. A 3.5 player has not even acheived complete stroke dependability on moderate shots. The serve of a top 25 women is most certainly not a moderate shot. This is all part of the recreational players delusion about the pros.

Your point about 4.0 players charading as 3.5's is kind of silly don't you think? If you and they both admit they are 4.0, then what is your point?

No,not silly at all. That is aparently a normal thing nowadays. My dad went to Colorado (for example) where he is working with some junior players and he swore those guys are about 4.0 level in Cali (for example. and he knows what he is talking about, trust me (or not, up to you).

Datacipher
11-16-2004, 07:34 PM
[No,not silly at all. That is aparently a normal thing nowadays. My dad went to Colorado (for example) where he is working with some junior players and he swore those guys are about 4.0 level in Cali (for example. and he knows what he is talking about, trust me (or not, up to you).

Trust me, I'm well aware of the NTRP inflation going on in various parts of North America, that's not the point.

YOU say they're 4.0's, YOUR dad says they're 4.0 and THEY admit they are playing down. So your argument is "a 3.5 can do XXXX because he's actually a 4.0 pretending to be a 3.5". Do you not see the absurdity of this logic?

Yes, if Federer claims to be a 3.5 then indeed he could go down and destroy the top WTA players.

katarddx
11-17-2004, 08:28 AM
well, you just answered the question...
But anyway, my point is that 3.5 player CAN return a serve from WTA player every now and then. that is my point, and I strongly believe in that. Live with it.

TwistServe
11-17-2004, 10:01 AM
A 3.5 player does not return anybody's serve with consistency.

PusherMan
11-17-2004, 10:32 AM
WOW! The 3.5s in your area must really suck, or none of the 3.5s here in Cali are REALLY 3.5s.

Pirc Defense
11-17-2004, 12:18 PM
I posed this question because a friend of mine at work saw an episode of The Apprentice, that reality show with Donald Trump. I guess one of the contestants asked Anna Kournikova (sp?) out and she said she would go out with him only if he could return one of five serves back on her. Turns out he only got his racquet on one, and returned none.

This guy I was told was not a tennis player, so that certaintly factors in to his inability to return anything, but he was not unathletic.

Anyway, glad this question generated so much discussion.

I will say that when I was going to UT @ Austin I had a chance to watch the UT women's tennis team warm up. Good god! These girls were very, very good. I remember two of them hitting back and forth to each other, HARD, and neither moving from their position on the baseline. It was impressive to see, but may not sound impressive. My "I'd never get beat by a girl" attitude changed that day.

kevhen
11-17-2004, 12:31 PM
Pro women can place their serves quite well but a 3.5 might be able to get a few back if not placed well but I bet the return would sit up short and sweet and be finished off rather abruptly.

Same thing would happen with a 4.5 returning a pro men's serve. Second serves would be easier but the spin would still be nasty and eat your racquet for lunch.

kevhen
11-17-2004, 12:34 PM
Did Anna actually get any of her serves in or just quintuple fault like usual? An athletic non-tennis player is likely a weak 3.0 level player.

snark
11-17-2004, 01:18 PM
Did Anna actually get any of her serves in or just quintuple fault like usual? An athletic non-tennis player is likely a weak 3.0 level player.

Actually it is really hard for a nontennis player to return even moderate serves.
Athleticism plays only a marginal role there.

daniel_rst
11-17-2004, 02:19 PM
It's funny, I saw that episode of the Apprentice and thought of that while reading this thread. The returner (Raj, I believe) did not have trouble with the pace so much as the spin and placement. She kicked a couple and sliced a couple. They looked like second serves, but were reasonably well placed.

I think this type of serve is actually harder for most inexperienced players to return than a hard, fast one. The best way to return the spin serves is usually to move in and take it early rather than let the spin pull you off the court. This is pretty counter-intuitive and requires good timing. With a fast, flat serve it is easier to just put your racquet out. Of course, I'm not talking about a well-place 120+ MPH flat serve. Forget about those.

Daniel

Datacipher
11-17-2004, 02:38 PM
Cool. The evidence is pretty clear as many learned posted have pointed out. As for the true level of a 3.5, that is also clearly defined:

Serve/Return of Serve: Starting to serve with control and some power; developing spin; can return serve consistently with directional control on moderate shots

The 3.5 can return consistently on moderate shots FROM OTHER 3.5 players. That is how the system works and is defined. As you can also see, a 3.5 server is beginning to develop control and some power, this is several levels below WTA players. Anything else is just subjective fantasy.

Let's face it, there are players out there with really wild beliefs, "I served that one 120mph!"(when in reality about 90mph) "My buddy who has never played a tournament volleys better than Roddick, seriously." (Rickson lol) etc etc etc etc.....Not too say anyone in this thread has been anywhere near this far out there!

Trey
11-17-2004, 07:02 PM
Did Anna actually get any of her serves in or just quintuple fault like usual? An athletic non-tennis player is likely a weak 3.0 level player.

Actually it is really hard for a nontennis player to return even moderate serves.
Athleticism plays only a marginal role there.

Actually I would agree. A nontennis player who never played would be a 1.0-1.5 no matter how athletic he happened to be. They most likely would have the wrong grip and would completely not ready for a 100+ mph serve.