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View Full Version : My retired composite player vs your present one!!!


JohnThomas1
11-13-2004, 10:23 PM
Bring on the heat, let's see just how good tennis really is now...

Serve: Pete Sampras - The most effective server ever, not much need be said here. A great serve for my netman to thump in behind too.

Net game: Stefan Edberg - Plenty to choose from but has anyone ever played the net better than Edberg beating Courier in the US Open final? An amazing athlete and sensational net player. He made the French Open final as a serve volleyer. Slide him in at the right times behind the Sampras serve and lookout. This is where i'm hoping the new waver might struggle, repeling the attacker. It can be done to them too for mine, remember Rafter's great Wimbledon victories over Agassi.

Forehand: Ivan Lendl - Think Fedex has a good one? This guy has too. Ivan provided the blueprint for the modern atacking forehand. Recently it was voted best forehand in history by the Tennis mag panel, so don't tell me it wouldn't hold up. The harder they hit the harder old Ivan hit it back! Plenty of accuracy and margin for error too. Playing the modern style player Ivan would have ramped it up and taken more chances so as to not get overwhelmed in rallies.

Backhand: Jimmy Connors - This guy will pummel flat backhands with the best of em! A hard hit aggressive shot and very penetrating. My choices were short here due to the overwhelming power and aggressiveness in today's tennis. The best one handers of the past might have been troubled nowadays. Ivan sliced a bit at times tho i feel he would have eventually adapted to today's pace. Edberg made a few more errors than people seem to remember and also had off days with the shot. If i picked a one hander it could well have been Korda actually. Two handers like Borg and Wilander didn't hit hard enough for today, they might have taken the loopers on the rise with forehands and driven them. Maybe.

Return: Jimmy Connors - Who else? His speciality was taking massive serves and smacking them back near as hard. His aggressive technique would have faired well today, not much room for pushes and floaters, they kill em. Let's hope he could adapt to the extra pace. The other thing is i don't think they are serving THAT much harder today, not as much as claimed anyways.

Mental and Tactical aspects: Pete Sampras - The greatest slammer in history, i'm in safe hands here.

Passing shots, lobs, approaches etc will be hit by the groundies of the player i chose. Apart from on the return of serve my player is right handed. Speed and athleticism will be determined by the stroke, forehands will be Lendl's footwork, backhands Jimmy, etc etc. Be kind and hopefully we can have some light hearted fun. No abuse, ridicule etc lol

ZhuangCorp
11-13-2004, 11:18 PM
Serve: If possible, i'd like to take Federer's form and motion, but Roddick's power. Anybody else think roddick looks dumb serving?

Net: Henman is still the best at net out there.

Forehand: Obviously Federer has the best forehand. I think its probably the best forehand ever, considering not just the pace, but the spin, placement, and most importantly the versatility. Federer hits his forehand from so many different positions.

Backhand: Individually, i think Safin has the best backhand out there. But if I had to choose, i'd take Federer's backhand because it complements his net game, forehand, and movement better.

Return: Again, i think Hewitt's return is the best out there right now, but still would take Federer's return, just because the spin and variety complements the all-court game better.

Mental: Federer, he's proven he has the champion's mentality.

VictorS.
11-13-2004, 11:41 PM
Serve: Roddick...dunno if it's as consistently good as sampras'...but it certainly comes with a lot of juice

Forehand: Federer

Backhand: Agassi

Net Game: Federer

Mental: Hewitt

laurie
11-14-2004, 06:04 AM
Henman at net? I think we have a problem here. From 1996-2001 Henman would have been in the pecking order of Sampras, Becker (retired 1999), Rafter, Krajicek, Goran. Now as all these chaps have retired Henman is suddenly the only one....therefore the best. That's a terrible disadvantage for the present crop.

Also, the serve; the fact that no one today uses the slice to serve down the middle (or centre) of the court to swing the ball away from the opponent means that the Roddick serve technically is a joke compared to Sampras and Becker and Krajicek and Goran and Stich.

I would agree that Hewitt can match anyone from yesteryear on returns. Safin, excellent backhand passing ability.

My summary, lack of top class serve and volleyers/all court players (no, not Myrni and Taylor Dent) has been detrimental for men's tennis.

laurie
11-14-2004, 06:24 AM
I thought I will explain more my point about serving down the middle using slice.

On the deuce court (first point), players using heavier frames and smaller midsize heads use topsin on the ball at pace to serve down the middle, so the ball shoots off the surface when it bounces and rises, many cases hitting the backboards on the rise, which when you think about it, is a long when from the service box. That illustrates the power and accuracy.

However, what made the serve of these guys even more impressive is the advantage court. On the deuce court, if you want to serve wide to the forehand you use slice so the ball goes away from the opponent. These guys employed the same technique on the advantage court to serve down the middle. The ball slides away from the oppponent like a fast bowler seaming the ball in cricket. To employ this technique you have to stand close to the centre line so you swing your racket around the ball as the ball is about to descend from the ball toss. I serve this way myself and on the advantage court gives you more options.

My proof players don't do that today apart from Phillipousis who of course is from the last era; watch players serve from the advantage court, they stand further away from the centre line meaning they have to serve either a kick serve to the backhand or a flat serve down the middle to keep it in the box. It makes returners easier to read the server's intentions. Its also easier to return a flat serve down the middle because the ball is actually coming into the returner's hitting zone as opposed to sliding away from the reurner.

So, even though Roddick's may be faster, its easier to return.

Datacipher
11-14-2004, 01:58 PM
I thought I will explain more my point about serving down the middle using slice.

On the deuce court (first point), players using heavier frames and smaller midsize heads use topsin on the ball at pace to serve down the middle, so the ball shoots off the surface when it bounces and rises, many cases hitting the backboards on the rise, which when you think about it, is a long when from the service box. That illustrates the power and accuracy.
.

Actually it's the flat serve that has the greatest chance of still being rising when it hits the backstop. Spin serves have less pace and are more likely to reach peak arc before the backstop.

I do agree that slice serves down the T in the ad court are not nearly what they used to be. But the real reason for this is the predominance of a contact point farther to the left of the body. Sampras, Becker and Krajicek did the same thing and also could not hit great breaking down the center slices in the ad court. Sampras often used a large topspin component when going down the T in the ad court. He could slice it, but it didn't break nearly as far as the greatest slice servers of the past. The greatest slice servers of the past threw the ball much farther to the right. The best and last slice serve down the middle with pace and break that I ever saw was Noah. Noah tossed the ball much farther to the right than any of the players you mentioned. It also allowed him to hit a much better breaking ball into the body in the deuce court than today's players.

When you toss the ball to the left (for example in the deuce court) you can still come around the ball for slice when you are aiming wide up the box....but you cannot get nearly as pure a slice when going down the middle or into the body, you tend to get a topspin/slice mixture. Likewise, it is hard to get a pure breaking slice down the T in the ad court if you toss the ball back to the left. The upside being it is easier to get topspin and easier to disquise the kick serve.

jun
11-14-2004, 07:44 PM
Serve: Sampras w/o doubt. His ability to hit spots, and big serve when it counted.
Forehand: Federer. Doesn't break down much. Can hit anywhere from court to anywhere on the court.
Backhand: For one hander, maybe Federer's , Hass's..For two hander, I would take Agassi's over anybody.
Overhead: Sampras hands down.
Net game: Edberg, Henman.

Mental: I think with this much ability, I would take Sampras's mentaility, play by instint. If I was more one dimensional baseliner, I would take Agassi's.

JohnThomas1
11-14-2004, 08:28 PM
You mixed n matched jun, i think you missed my criteria :)

tamdoankc
11-15-2004, 04:13 AM
I think it would be a mistake to have Lendl's footwork. His footwork was extremely forced and unnatural. I remember somewhere that said he even admitted to having worked soo much harder when he trained because it just wasn't natural to him ala Edberg. I think that's why he failed at Wimbledon.

JohnThomas1
11-15-2004, 11:37 AM
His footwork is on the forehand only, ever seen the amazing running forehand passes he used to hit time after time, even when it appeared he wouldn't reach the ball only to produce an amazing winner either side? He made the shot his own.

laurie
11-16-2004, 04:12 AM
Datacipher, would you agree thats the genius of Sampras? The conventional wisdom for slice is indeed to toss the ball to the right and for topsin straight above or slightly to the left. Of course, if you throw the ball to the right you can advertise where you are going to serve and your opponent can anticipate it and inch over to that side.

The 1999 Wimbledon final is a classic example. Agassi was always trying to pick the serve down the middle on the ad court on big points. However, Sampras put so much slice and swerve on the ball that he still managed to serve aces even though Agassi was over there, in many cases Agassi lunging to reach a ball he couldn't get and in some instances the ball kept swerving upon pitching and swaying to the right. And all this with a straight ball toss! Of course, most servers serve with the ball angling into the returner because they stand further from the centre service line. Giving the likes of Agassi the chance to pick up the pace and hit clean winners off the return. He had much more trouble hitting clean winning returns off Sampras.

AllCourt
11-17-2004, 05:07 PM
Serve: Sampras...no explanatino needed

Forehand: Federer....Heavy, disguised, powerful, angled, what else do you need?

Backhand: Agassi or Safin, either one is good enough as long as the slice backhand is as good as a one-handed backhander's

Return: Hewitt or Agassi....Agassi for offence, Hweitt for getting them back in a good spot

Overhead: Sampras...duh!

Footwork: Federer/Hewitt....they get in position for every shot

Speed: Hewitt

Mental Toughness: Sampras/Hewitt

Netgame: Henman



If you want retired players only, then.....

Serve: Sampras

Frehand: Lendl

Backhand: Connors

Volley: Edberge

Return: Connors/Courier

Smash: Sampras

Datacipher
11-17-2004, 10:53 PM
Datacipher, would you agree thats the genius of Sampras? The conventional wisdom for slice is indeed to toss the ball to the right and for topsin straight above or slightly to the left. Of course, if you throw the ball to the right you can advertise where you are going to serve and your opponent can anticipate it and inch over to that side.
.

Laurie, I would agree that disguise in his motion is certainly part of the genius of Sampras. However, a lot of the servers who use a toss somewhat to the left can still serve great wide breaking deuce court slices and a mediocre slice down the middle in the ad court. I say mediocre because although Sampras for example can still get some break on his slice down the middle of the ad court, it doesn't have near the break that a Noah or Ashe were able to produce. If you've seen them you know what I mean...if you haven't then it's too bad because it's a lost shot now....these guys at their best could really rip the ball and break so wide that upon hitting the backstop it could be a full 10 feet into the deuce court...I'm not exaggerating either. It doesn't matter in Sampras' case partly because his lesser slice still hits the tee and can break a little and happens to be going 115mph! ;-)

On the positive side, Sampras can also hit a topspin wide in the ad court with a very similar toss and even an extreme american twist wide in the ad court with a toss just a bit further to the left. Combined with his flat bombs, it makes him one of the best or perhaps THE best right handed ad court servers I have ever had the privilege of seeing.