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View Full Version : Left elbow to be locked or not locked in OHBH?


New Daddy
10-17-2007, 06:12 PM
With the forehand, I think you elbow should now be locked.
Instead you should form a double lever by bending your elbow.

What is the best mechanism with your one-handed backhand?
Are you supposed to lock your elbow or bend your elbow?
I've tried both and each seems to have benefits.
What is the recommended mechanism for one-handed backhand?

EliteNinja
10-17-2007, 07:19 PM
Are you left or right-handed?

On my takeback, my elbow is bent.

For a flattish drive topspin - My hitting arm elbow locks just before hitting.
For a safety oriented topspin - My hitting arm elbow stays ever so slightly bent.

Mahboob Khan
10-17-2007, 07:55 PM
1-handed BH: If you have a real high backswing, then in the backswing your hitting arm is bent at elbow; but as you go into forward swing then prior to, during, and after contact, the hitting elbow should be stiff-straight. If the hitting elbow is bent at contact, it will cause the racket head to dangle down, and you will lose control over the racket-head. And let's not confuse the mechanics of 1-handed BH with forehand, or with 2-handed BH.

krz
10-17-2007, 09:41 PM
hmm lefy or righty?

righty I don't think it matters what the left arm does. Most people like to follow the right arm up at the same time.

if your a lefty the elbow is locked at contact and from there on after the elbow should also be straight.

Slazenger
10-17-2007, 10:03 PM
For most BHs, as you start the stroke phase of your 1HBH, your elbow extends till it's straight or almost straight (before contact and stays this way through contact).
I don't like the word 'locked' because you don't lock your elbow of your own volition. It straightens as you pull the racquet forward.

Some players do have the hitting elbow bent, however.

http://www.imagesbyevvy.com/tennisforall/sampras_6.jpg

http://i23.tinypic.com/125s4yo.jpg
This is Eleni Daniilidou btw.

Geezer Guy
10-18-2007, 11:31 AM
I don't like the word "locked" either, but your arm should be straight throughout the stroke. It's tempting to bend your elbow on the takeback, that that adds some possible complexity into the stroke that can break down and screw you up. Keeping your elbow straight throughout the stroke will help your consistency greatly.

Slazenger
10-18-2007, 11:37 AM
There is no need to keep the elbow straight during your takeback. It serves no purpose.

stormholloway
10-18-2007, 12:09 PM
I always thought Sampras' bent arm was a weakness in that shot. The arm should be straight.

I also feel the same about the forehand. I disagree with this double bend business. Under ideal circumstances, i.e. when you're in great position to hit a killing shot, the arm should always straighten out on both sides.

Watch Federer: straight arm off both wings.

Geezer Guy
10-18-2007, 12:38 PM
There is no need to keep the elbow straight during your takeback. It serves no purpose.

I agree in theory. My problem was that I was bending my elbow on takeback and then not always getting my arm straightened before contact. This caused me to hit balls at slightly different contact points, resulting in inconsistent shots. Based on instruction from my pro, I now keep my arm straight from initial takeback through contact, and my shots are much more predictable. That's just me, of course.

Mountain Ghost
10-18-2007, 01:01 PM
I always thought Sampras' bent arm was a weakness in that shot. The arm should be straight.

I also feel the same about the forehand. I disagree with this double bend business. Under ideal circumstances, i.e. when you're in great position to hit a killing shot, the arm should always straighten out on both sides.

Watch Federer: straight arm off both wings.

I agree. While I think Sampras was a great athlete with extraordinary skills, some of his form was a bit painful for me to look at, and if a student showed up on my lesson court with that much of a bend (or elbow lead) on a backhand I would definitely encourage him to change it. However, considering his muscle-build, I'm not sure Sampras could have straightened his arm that much more even if he wanted to.

Now Federer, on the other hand, looks just "perfect" to me . . . and I'm SO glad to see such a "sensible" (modernized-classic) example at the top of the sport.

Geezer’s pro has the right idea. The problem is that while developing a one-handed backhand, if the student initially starts with a bent arm, that student invariably never learns to find or to RECOGNIZE the fully back and down position from which to start the actual forward stroke, and usually winds up leading with the elbow. That’s why I always teach the one-handed backhand in a two-phase progression. First, learn the forward stroke while starting from a “perfect” stationary back and down position, and then, as you develop, allow your body to find its own “flexible” way of finding that starting position . . . using a bend if desired.

MG

Slazenger
10-18-2007, 01:23 PM
Geezer’s pro has the right idea. The problem is that while developing a one-handed backhand, if the student initially starts with a bent arm, that student invariably never learns to find or to RECOGNIZE the fully back and down position from which to start the actual forward stroke, and usually winds up leading with the elbow.

My 1HBH is my weapon and stronger wing and I never learnt the 1HBH with a straight takeback.

Mahboob Khan
10-18-2007, 08:26 PM
I always thought Sampras' bent arm was a weakness in that shot. The arm should be straight.

I also feel the same about the forehand. I disagree with this double bend business. Under ideal circumstances, i.e. when you're in great position to hit a killing shot, the arm should always straighten out on both sides.

Watch Federer: straight arm off both wings.

Nice to hear from you on this forum. About Sampras' 1-handed BH. Remember, around the age of 16 he used to have a double-handed backhand (his right hand in a continental, left forehand grip). His coach then, Pete Fischer, converted him to 1-handed BH but forgot to adjust his grip from continental to Eastern BH. Sampras did not have full Eastern BH grip. His grip is more of a fist toward continental. This to me, prevented him from winning a French Open title. Great observation, though.

Rickson
10-18-2007, 10:44 PM
With the forehand, I think you elbow should now be locked.
Instead you should form a double lever by bending your elbow.

What is the best mechanism with your one-handed backhand?
Are you supposed to lock your elbow or bend your elbow?
I've tried both and each seems to have benefits.
What is the recommended mechanism for one-handed backhand?
Your arm is supposed to be straight at contact for the most part, but some pros such as Haas and Gaudio keep a slight bend in the elbow.

Mountain Ghost
10-19-2007, 12:09 AM
My 1HBH is my weapon and stronger wing and I never learnt the 1HBH with a straight takeback.

Some people ARE just naturally gifted, in which case I do my best to not mess with what may already be working for them.

Those with obvious deficiencies are subject to stricter teaching methods.

MG

stormholloway
10-19-2007, 12:39 AM
I agree. While I think Sampras was a great athlete with extraordinary skills, some of his form was a bit painful for me to look at, and if a student showed up on my lesson court with that much of a bend (or elbow lead) on a backhand I would definitely encourage him to change it. However, considering his muscle-build, I'm not sure Sampras could have straightened his arm that much more even if he wanted to.

I agree but I think the only glaring issue is on the backhand side. He always seemed to have the shrugging motion with the muscles on his upper back as he his backhand. This indicates an attempt to compensate for a lack of accuracy with the hitting arm. Mind you it was an effective shot, but it was clear the technique wasn't fully explored by Sampras.

Now Federer, on the other hand, looks just "perfect" to me . . . and I'm SO glad to see such a "sensible" (modernized-classic) example at the top of the sport.

It's downright brilliant. I hope it inspires more players with a classical style. The forehand is perhaps even more of a modernized classic.

Geezer’s pro has the right idea. The problem is that while developing a one-handed backhand, if the student initially starts with a bent arm, that student invariably never learns to find or to RECOGNIZE the fully back and down position from which to start the actual forward stroke, and usually winds up leading with the elbow. That’s why I always teach the one-handed backhand in a two-phase progression. First, learn the forward stroke while starting from a “perfect” stationary back and down position, and then, as you develop, allow your body to find its own “flexible” way of finding that starting position . . . using a bend if desired.

MG

I just feel that if the arm doesn't straighten then maximum velocity with the racquet head has yet to be achieved.

stormholloway
10-19-2007, 12:43 AM
Nice to hear from you on this forum. About Sampras' 1-handed BH. Remember, around the age of 16 he used to have a double-handed backhand (his right hand in a continental, left forehand grip). His coach then, Pete Fischer, converted him to 1-handed BH but forgot to adjust his grip from continental to Eastern BH. Sampras did not have full Eastern BH grip. His grip is more of a fist toward continental. This to me, prevented him from winning a French Open title. Great observation, though.

Yeah but come on. The man is a champion. I think he just found what worked and stuck with it. There are 10 year olds who straighten their arms on that shot. It is interesting to wonder what Sampras would be with a two hander, or perhaps what he would be if he had learned the one hander from the start. But I think it's unanimous that the backhand could have been better.

About the grip, I always thought true eastern... no?

Geezer Guy
10-19-2007, 08:10 AM
Some people ARE just naturally gifted, in which case I do my best to not mess with what may already be working for them.

Those with obvious deficiencies are subject to stricter teaching methods.

MG

You don't get that smooth at an early age. You must have been around the block a time or two.

justsomeguy
10-19-2007, 08:41 AM
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step9.html

Some interesting stuff in this link.

Personally, I never lock my elbow when I hit the backhand. My arm is straight, but my elbow isn't locked. It's a subtle difference. If I look at a picture of my one-handed backhand it looks like I lock it, but I do not. When I first started playing I read that I should lock it. That hurt. I never did it again. It felt like my joints and tendons were taking all the force instead of the muscles.

Straight arm+no lock=no pain. At least for me. You may be different.

habib
10-19-2007, 09:29 AM
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step9.html

Some interesting stuff in this link.

Personally, I never lock my elbow when I hit the backhand. My arm is straight, but my elbow isn't locked. It's a subtle difference. If I look at a picture of my one-handed backhand it looks like I lock it, but I do not. When I first started playing I read that I should lock it. That hurt. I never did it again. It felt like my joints and tendons were taking all the force instead of the muscles.

Straight arm+no lock=no pain. At least for me. You may be different.

Ugh, that exact page caused so much controversy when it was first brought up here some months ago. The author took a lot of flak for his suggestion that the elbow somehow rotates through contact, as such mechanics have a good chance of leading to injury.

justsomeguy
10-19-2007, 09:34 AM
Ugh, that exact page caused so much controversy when it was first brought up here some months ago. The author took a lot of flak for his suggestion that the elbow somehow rotates through contact, as such mechanics have a good chance of leading to injury.

Yeah, I am not saying to take his advice, just that it is an interesting read.

stormholloway
10-19-2007, 10:10 AM
That website says flex the arm, then it says don't straighten the arm. Well this just makes no sense. When you flex your tricep your arm straightens.

In fact just by looking at the great one handers we can see that the arm straightens on this shot.

justsomeguy
10-19-2007, 10:20 AM
Sorry, I never should have referenced that link. I was only refering to parts of it. The title alone "revolutionary tennis" should have been a red flag. I was browsing it while working and found a few things that made me say "hmmm". Now that I read it more thoroughly, it has me saying "huh?" more than "hmmm".

Anyway, I was just trying to say that locking my arm is uncomfortable. I like it straight, just not locked. It seems to be the same for all my joints. Just sitting here and locking either elbow doesn't feel very good. For me it's the same when lifting weights. I never completely lock out on any lift, just close to it. It seems to keep the stress off the joints.

Mahboob Khan
10-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Yeah but come on. The man is a champion. I think he just found what worked and stuck with it. There are 10 year olds who straighten their arms on that shot. It is interesting to wonder what Sampras would be with a two hander, or perhaps what he would be if he had learned the one hander from the start. But I think it's unanimous that the backhand could have been better.

About the grip, I always thought true eastern... no?

I have studied Sampras 1-handed BH grip. It is not classic Eastern BH grip. It's extreme continental, but NOT full Eastern BH and his fingers are not spread on the handle. It's like a fist.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 11:15 AM
I have studied Sampras 1-handed BH grip. It is not classic Eastern BH grip. It's extreme continental, but NOT full Eastern BH and his fingers are not spread on the handle. It's like a fist.

no, he used an extreme eastern, heel of his hand on bevel eight, index knuckle on bevel 1, ( same as gasquet for eg)

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/6010/smpbaik0.png

close up of heel position:


http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1889/sampbxw6.png

the one thing Sampras never struggled with on his backhand were high balls:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nypYyl9SN0w

last shoulder high

all shoulder high:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMgXa6NvAQc


, his only technical flaw was leading with the elbow, which someone has obviously told him because he's stopped doing it lately, maybe he's gotten back with lansdorp?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuGSAESeTgk&mode=related&search=pete%20sampras%20todd%20martin%20boston%202 007

stormholloway
10-19-2007, 12:34 PM
the one thing Sampras never struggled with on his backhand were high balls

Are you sure about that? That's commonly known to be the only shot he did struggle with.

There are no glaring weaknesses in his game, but if there were to be one, that was it.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 12:40 PM
Are you sure about that? That's commonly known to be the only shot he did struggle with.

There are no glaring weaknesses in his game, but if there were to be one, that was it.

no, you're definitely wrong about that m8.His backhand was a weakness in general, most of the time, not high balls any more than waist height balls though.

stormholloway
10-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Well there are droves of individuals who would disagree with you, including me. One of the factors stated by many for Sampras' not winning the French is the high bounce to his backhand.

I strongly disagree.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 02:29 PM
Well there are droves of individuals who would disagree with you, including me. One of the factors stated by many for Sampras' not winning the French is the high bounce to his backhand.

I strongly disagree.

sampras could never win roland garros because he went for winners too oftern, as Sergi Brugera said:

'To win on clay you have to be willing to suffer, Sampras wasn't willing to suffer at all, he wanted to end the rally after two shots''.

He actually had a very good record there while he was in his physical prime, got to the quarter three years in a row, and the semi final the year after next.

His serve was a huge part of his game, wasn't as effective there.

He suffered from a genetic blood disorder which affected his stamina hugely, he was always exhausted by the second week.

His backhand was probably his steadier shot on clay, he just rolled that in, made more errors on his forehand as he went for the lines throughout his matches with it.

You can't hit a high backhand in front of you with continental backhand, it's physically impossible:

http://w2.hidemyass.com/index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS93YXRjaD 92PW55cFl5bDlTTjB3

habib
10-19-2007, 04:41 PM
sampras could never win roland garros because he went for winners too oftern, as Sergi Brugera said:

'To win on clay you have to be willing to suffer, Sampras wasn't willing to suffer at all, he wanted to end the rally after two shots''.


Of course part of the reaosn he suffered on clay was his lack of stamina (result of anemia) and his very aggressive game. However, your claim about his proficiency in handling high backhands is...well, wrong.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 04:48 PM
Of course part of the reaosn he suffered on clay was his lack of stamina (result of anemia) and his very aggressive game. However, your claim about his proficiency in handling high backhands is...well, wrong.

no, I have shown his grip, I have shown his contact point.I have proven my point.
All you have are empty words.

tricky
10-19-2007, 04:59 PM
My impression is that Sampras would take back the racquet with a smile pattern, but then often swing across the body for his forward swing. If you do that, then yeah often your arms will still be bent entering the contact zone.

Either that or he's a tennis revolutionary. *cough* :D

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 05:12 PM
My impression is that Sampras would take back the racquet with a smile pattern, but then often swing across the body for his forward swing. If you do that, then yeah often your arms will still be bent entering the contact zone.

Either that or he's a tennis revolutionary. *cough* :D


works ok for henin


http://www.procomparetennis.net/tech_image_sequences/fullsize/heninbhside.jpg

tricky
10-19-2007, 05:20 PM
works ok for henin

She uses a C-shaped backswing, not a smile pattern.

Theoretically, if you use a C-shaped backswing with a "to the sky" finish, or a U/smile-shaped backswing with a lateral, across-the-body finish, the arm could still be a little bent going into the contact zone. Of course, if your arm is almost straight in the takeback, then this probably never happens.

On the flip side, if you match the C shape with the lateral finish, or the smile with the sky finish, even if you start with a severely bent elbow, you'll always have a straight arm into the contact zone.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 05:38 PM
She uses a C-shaped backswing, not a smile pattern.

Theoretically, if you use a C-shaped backswing with a "to the sky" finish, or a U/smile-shaped backswing with a lateral, across-the-body finish, the arm could still be a little bent going into the contact zone. Of course, if your arm is almost straight in the takeback, then this probably never happens.

On the flip side, if you match the C shape with the lateral finish, or the smile with the sky finish, even if you start with a severely bent elbow, you'll always have a straight arm into the contact zone.



her racquet moves back and up, no loop, it's linear, therefore smile pattern, I'll even show you the smile pattern:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6009/bbbyv9.png

tricky
10-19-2007, 06:02 PM
Nah, you have to watch the hands. Once she reaches the height of her takeback, she continues taking the racquet further back while lowering her hands. Her loop is a touch flatter than Kuerten's, but it's still a loop.

The C-loop enables the shoulder to rotate more freely, especially on a lateral plan. Because of this and because the arm opens in the forward swing, the arm straightens out before the hitting arm is in the zone.

On here, a lot of people do the classical 1H backhand with a C-loop backswing, and they have problems tracking the elbow in the forward swing. An extension of that, they sometimes have problems with a straightened arm prior to the contact zone.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 06:21 PM
Nah, you have to watch the hands. Once she reaches the height of her takeback, she continues taking the racquet further back while lowering her hands. Her loop is a touch flatter than Kuerten's, but it's still a loop.

The C-loop enables the shoulder to rotate more freely, especially on a lateral plan. Because of this and because the arm opens in the forward swing, the arm straightens out before the hitting arm is in the zone.

On here, a lot of people do the classical 1H backhand with a C-loop backswing, and they have problems tracking the elbow in the forward swing. An extension of that, they sometimes have problems with a straightened arm prior to the contact zone.



What you're saying is at odds with the original BB article from which you got these terms tricky.All backhands make a small U at the end of the backswing/beginning of the foreswing, indeed all ground strokes do.There is no such thing as a truly linear takeback as well you know.You're being disingenuous here I think.(why?)

tricky
10-19-2007, 06:54 PM
.All backhands make a small U at the end of the backswing/beginning of the foreswing, indeed all ground strokes do.

In the normal smile pattern, your takeback ends at the height of the takeback. Depending body sequencing, there may be some transition with regards to the forearm between backswing and forward swing, but the end goal of the smile pattern is to load the shoulder while tracking the elbow or hand parallel with the intended path of the ball. Because of this, you can't bring your hand or elbow closer into your body in the takeback, which also means that you can't bring your hands down from the height of the takeback except to execute the forward swing.

This doesn't happen with a C-pattern, because the shoulder doesn't rotate in just one plane. At the height of takeback, you still continue the backswing prior to the transition, and if allowed to move freely, the hand moves back down and into the body due to shoulder rotation. Great for a lateral swing, bad for a to-the-sky swing.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 07:13 PM
which also means that you can't bring your hands down from the height of the takeback except to execute the forward swing.
.

yeah, that's what that 'U' is.Her takeback makes a smile pattern on the way up, therefore it's a smile pattern.Gasquet's takeback makes a circle pattern, therefore it's a c pattern, simple as.

tricky
10-19-2007, 07:19 PM
Her takeback makes a smile pattern on the way up,

Oh no no. Henin swings across the body in her forward swing. Her BH is lateral. She doesn't start her forward swing until her hand is much lower than the height of her takeback.

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 07:24 PM
Oh no no. Henin swings across the body in her forward swing. Her BH is lateral. She doesn't start her forward swing until her hand is much lower than the height of her takeback.



Yes she does, and no that's not a valid distinction anyway as we are talking about the backswing are ew not?

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/6009/bbbyv9.png

see?

smiley pattern :)

Mahboob Khan
10-19-2007, 08:12 PM
Behappy: None of the clips you posted show his BH grip clearly. None.

During his playing days Sampras himself posted an article in the Tennis magazine about his backhand and there was a clear picture of his BH grip. He said, "I use an Eastern BH grip". However, the grip was an extreme continental because the base knuckle of his index finger was on the upper part of penal 2 (or upper part of bevel 1). The knuckle of the index finger was not on the top panel i.e. panel 1; it was a bit to the right side; and that explains his open racket face in the backswing. From the shape of his backswing (bit open racket face), it appears as if he is hitting a slice; this because he does not use full Eastern BH. With the Eastern BH grip, the racket face is more on the edge!

BeHappy
10-19-2007, 08:45 PM
Behappy: None of the clips you posted show his BH grip clearly. None.

During his playing days Sampras himself posted an article in the Tennis magazine about his backhand and there was a clear picture of his BH grip. He said, "I use an Eastern BH grip". However, the grip was an extreme continental because the base knuckle of his index finger was on the upper part of penal 2 (or upper part of bevel 1). The knuckle of the index finger was not on the top panel i.e. panel 1; it was a bit to the right side; and that explains his open racket face in the backswing. From the shape of his backswing (bit open racket face), it appears as if he is hitting a slice; this because he does not use full Eastern BH. With the Eastern BH grip, the racket face is more on the edge!


well, funny you should say that:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3596/gkjkhqy8.png

do you think Gasquet has an eaastern grip?
His Racquet is not on edge!
He must be hitting a slice!
;)



What about the pictures?

I took that picture myself so I know he was hitting a topspin backhand.


You'll notice in the videos I posted he can hit the ball comfortably and cleanly out in front of him at shoulder height?That is literally impossible with the continental grip, the contact point would be beside your shoulder.That was the point of the videos.You are a member of tennisplayer.net , see if you can find one clip of tommy haas or James Blake hitting their continental backhands at shoulder height in front of them.You won't be able to do that!, why?, because you would have to bend your wrist downwards for the racquet face to be perpindicular to the court if you hit it out in front at shoulder height!

Sampras didn't know what grips he used, he admitted this when asked by a journalist what grip he used for his forehand.Obviously what happened was he picked up a grip that was not the one he used.I think he wrote the article with a coach/writer for the magazine who wanted everyone to use proper backhand technique and got him to hold the grip in his hand like that!Most Tennis players have no idea what their technique is!

tricky
10-19-2007, 09:12 PM
Yes she does, and no that's not a valid distinction anyway as we are talking about the backswing are ew not?

Okay, I think I understand the misunderstanding. Between the 6th and 7th pic, she is still taking the racquet back. This is seen because her shoulder is still moving closer to her chin. However her elbow is deviating away from the midline. The elbow deviation itself is part of the C loop takeback for the BH, but not part of the smile takeback.

dpfrazier
10-19-2007, 09:57 PM
For most BHs, as you start the stroke phase of your 1HBH, your elbow extends till it's straight or almost straight (before contact and stays this way through contact).
I don't like the word 'locked' because you don't lock your elbow of your own volition. It straightens as you pull the racquet forward.

Some players do have the hitting elbow bent, however.

http://www.imagesbyevvy.com/tennisforall/sampras_6.jpg

http://i23.tinypic.com/125s4yo.jpg
This is Eleni Daniilidou btw.
IMO, a bent elbow is an indicator that the shoulders are opening up too early. The elbow needs to bend to keep the racquet on plane with the intended shot direction.

Unfortunately, I do this a lot, and it's usually caused by not keeping my front knee bent, which in turn causes the hips and shoulders to open up when weight is shifted forward.

Check out this article on Gasquet's backhand, and note how closed his shoulders are compared to Sampras & Danilidou.

http://www.tennis.com/yourgame/instructionarticles/backhand/backhand.aspx?id=254

Also note the discussion on leg action during the stroke.

stormholloway
10-20-2007, 02:14 AM
Anyone who naturally shrugs their shoulders on their backhand is not going to like high balls.

You can see in that pic that Sampras shrugs his shoulders to get his racquet higher rather than just extending his arm. He's a grass court player who doesn't like high balls. End of story.

Mahboob Khan
10-20-2007, 09:28 AM
well, funny you should say that:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3596/gkjkhqy8.png

do you think Gasquet has an eaastern grip?
His Racquet is not on edge!
He must be hitting a slice!
;)



What about the pictures?

I took that picture myself so I know he was hitting a topspin backhand.


You'll notice in the videos I posted he can hit the ball comfortably and cleanly out in front of him at shoulder height?That is literally impossible with the continental grip, the contact point would be beside your shoulder.That was the point of the videos.You are a member of tennisplayer.net , see if you can find one clip of tommy haas or James Blake hitting their continental backhands at shoulder height in front of them.You won't be able to do that!, why?, because you would have to bend your wrist downwards for the racquet face to be perpindicular to the court if you hit it out in front at shoulder height!

Sampras didn't know what grips he used, he admitted this when asked by a journalist what grip he used for his forehand.Obviously what happened was he picked up a grip that was not the one he used.I think he wrote the article with a coach/writer for the magazine who wanted everyone to use proper backhand technique and got him to hold the grip in his hand like that!Most Tennis players have no idea what their technique is!

Let me make one thing clear that we are discussing BH grip for topspin backhand drive. I am not discussing slice here.

Let's compare the two backswings: Sampras with Gasquet:

-- Gasquet backswing is higher than Sampras'

-- Sampras' racket face is more open in the backswing than Gasquet's (this because Sampras is not using full Eastern BH grip).

Furthermore, in the pictures that you kindly posted, Gasquet's grip is more clearer than Sampras. You can easily see that Gasquet is using a bit extreme Eastern BH grip whereas Sampras' grip is not clear because it is a fist. Why don't you download Sampras' BH topspin drive from the Procompare to see his topspin BH grip?

What I implied was that from the shape of Sampras' bit open racket face in the backswing to hit topspin drive, it appears that he is using an extreme continental. (normally open racket face in the backswing will suggest slice).

BeHappy
10-20-2007, 10:27 AM
Let me make one thing clear that we are discussing BH grip for topspin backhand drive. I am not discussing slice here.


you said that because the picture of sampras I posted had an open face on the backswing he must have been hitting a slice.

I showed you a picture of Gasquet hitting a topspin drive, He had a far more open face than Sampras.


Let's compare the two backswings: Sampras with Gasquet:

-- Gasquet backswing is higher than Sampras'

-- Sampras' racket face is more open in the backswing than Gasquet's (this because Sampras is not using full Eastern BH grip).


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/75/kkgkhghkgq8.png
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3596/gkjkhqy8.png


actually gasquet has a far more open racquet face on the backswing than sampras.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7930/hmfhgfhip9.png


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/144/kkgkhghk2lg9.png

stormholloway
10-20-2007, 11:34 AM
Keep in mind that a racquet face being open doesn't mean much if the player supinates his wrist during the wind up. This would create the illusion of the grip being less extreme.

Slazenger
10-20-2007, 01:22 PM
BeHappy,

Sampras hit his backhand with a fisted continental grip, just like Mahboob says.
It's turned ever so slightly but it is closer to continental than it is to eastern. He definitely did not hit with an extreme eastern backhand.

And in your pic with Gasquet, his racquet face is not open in the backswing (the pic where you put the blue arrows).
You are orienting the racquet wrong. It is clearly slightly closed face due to his grip.

BeHappy
10-20-2007, 01:32 PM
BeHappy,

Sampras hit his backhand with a fisted continental grip, just like Mahboob says.
It's turned ever so slightly but it is closer to continental than it is to eastern. He definitely did not hit with an extreme eastern backhand.


pictured contact point refutes this


And in your pic with Gasquet, his racquet face is not open in the backswing (the pic where you put the blue arrows).
You are orienting the racquet wrong. It is clearly slightly closed face due to his grip.

lol

hawainn grip? ;)

BeHappy
10-20-2007, 01:33 PM
Keep in mind that a racquet face being open doesn't mean much if the player supinates his wrist during the wind up. This would create the illusion of the grip being less extreme.

that should be pronate, but yeah, it's so obvious mahboob.

BeHappy
10-22-2007, 09:42 AM
I see you're logged on mahboob, so I'll bump the thread

Mahboob Khan
10-22-2007, 09:47 AM
BeHappy,

Sampras hit his backhand with a fisted continental grip, just like Mahboob says.
It's turned ever so slightly but it is closer to continental than it is to eastern. He definitely did not hit with an extreme eastern backhand.

And in your pic with Gasquet, his racquet face is not open in the backswing (the pic where you put the blue arrows).
You are orienting the racquet wrong. It is clearly slightly closed face due to his grip.

Slazenger: You are absolutely right. Only you know what I am talking about.

I never said that because Sampras' racket face in the backswing was a bit open, he was going to hit slice. I said, "because Sampras' racket face in the backswing is a bit open, it indicates that he is using an extreme fist continental grip" (for his topspin BH drives).

Mahboob Khan
10-22-2007, 09:53 AM
that should be pronate, but yeah, it's so obvious mahboob.

Pronation occurs on serve, and forehands; not on 1-handed BHs. On 1-handed BH topspin drives, the wrist-forearm supinates as Storm says.

BeHappy
10-22-2007, 12:46 PM
Pronation occurs on serve, and forehands; not on 1-handed BHs. On 1-handed BH topspin drives, the wrist-forearm supinates as Storm says.

on the takeback mahboob, the take back

BeHappy
10-22-2007, 03:56 PM
how about answering post number #47 mahboob?

BeHappy
10-22-2007, 07:42 PM
. .

Mahboob Khan
10-22-2007, 07:42 PM
on the takeback mahboob, the take back

1-handed BH: I do not see any point/benefit of pronation even in the take back (to hit topspin drives). Maybe when you hit 1-handed slice backhands you pronate a bit to cause the racket to open up.

I have already answered 47.

BeHappy
10-22-2007, 07:53 PM
1-handed BH: I do not see any point/benefit of pronation even in the take back (to hit topspin drives). Maybe when you hit 1-handed slice backhands you pronate a bit to cause the racket to open up.

I have already answered 47.

no you haven't, you've completely ignored it,

in post 47 I made the point abut Sampras's contact point, you have not answered this.

BeHappy
10-24-2007, 10:35 PM
1-handed BH: I do not see any point/benefit of pronation even in the take back (to hit topspin drives). Maybe when you hit 1-handed slice backhands you pronate a bit to cause the racket to open up.

I have already answered 47.

no but as you can see with gasquet and kuerten's takebacks pronation occurs.

the advantage is that with th racket face opened up they can hit at short notice, eg: half volley.

now address the contact point arguement.

Have you been able to see the pictures I've been posting mahboob?

Mahboob Khan
10-24-2007, 10:41 PM
Yes, in the takeback, with extreme backhand grip, the wrist-forearm might give a look of pronation, but this because of extreme BH grip. Through contact, and follow through, if you want to roll the ball (topspin the ball) a bit of supination occurs.

I have not seen all the clips that you posted. Plus, my main point was with regard to Sampras' BH grip.

BeHappy
10-24-2007, 10:49 PM
Yes, in the takeback, with extreme backhand grip, the wrist-forearm might give a look of pronation, but this because of extreme BH grip. Through contact, and follow through, if you want to roll the ball (topspin the ball) a bit of supination occurs.

I have not seen all the clips that you posted. Plus, my main point was with regard to Sampras' BH grip.

no, I have mostly been posting pictures, very few clips.

have you been able to see the pictures, for eg can you this picture:

http://www.wilson.eu/sport/img/federer_1.jpg

cliff
10-25-2007, 02:36 PM
A relaxed take back would be best. Locking the arm could lead to tight muscles.

Mahboob Khan
10-26-2007, 08:13 PM
BeHappy: Yes, I have seen this pic. It is a BH volley by Federer. I do not see any relevance with the topic we are discussing.

Cliff: Yes, I agree, that the takback should be relax; that's why the hitting arm is bent in the backswing (elbow bone pointing downwards); but in the forward swing, just before, during, and after contact, the hitting arm should be straight-stiff to prevent elbow from bending.

BeHappy
10-26-2007, 08:27 PM
if you can see the pictures then why do you ignore them?

answer this post, there is writing on the pictures

Let me make one thing clear that we are discussing BH grip for topspin backhand drive. I am not discussing slice here.


you said that because the picture of sampras I posted had an open face on the backswing he must have been hitting a slice.

I showed you a picture of Gasquet hitting a topspin drive, He had a far more open face than Sampras.


Let's compare the two backswings: Sampras with Gasquet:

-- Gasquet backswing is higher than Sampras'

-- Sampras' racket face is more open in the backswing than Gasquet's (this because Sampras is not using full Eastern BH grip).


http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/75/kkgkhghkgq8.png
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/3596/gkjkhqy8.png


actually gasquet has a far more open racquet face on the backswing than sampras.

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7930/hmfhgfhip9.png


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/144/kkgkhghk2lg9.png

Mahboob Khan
10-28-2007, 11:01 AM
Behappy. Show me where I said that Sampras was hitting slice?

BeHappy
10-28-2007, 11:21 AM
you said that the open racquet face on the backswing makes it look as if you are going to hit a slice and shows you are using a continental grip.

I showed in my last post that this isn't the case.

Now you show me how his contact point could have been so far in front with a continental.

BeHappy
11-04-2007, 05:45 PM
please address my contact point question mahboob